Are desires to lead in the Church a bad thing? Former bishop weighs in after a decade of study

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After being called as a bishop at just 28 years old and with a desire to learn how to better lead and serve, Kurt Francom has interviewed hundreds of people over the past decade about their service within the Church. In this week’s episode of All In, Kurt talks about what he has learned from Church leaders serving in various callings all over the world, including how to recognize the needs of those you serve and the difference between motivation and ability when it comes to serving in leadership positions.

Listen to the full episode and interview with Kurt Francom in the player below or by clicking here. Read a full transcript of the episode here.

Note: The following excerpt has been edited for clarity. 

Morgan Jones: Kurt, you have quoted in the past Sterling W. Sill, who was a Seventy and assistant to the Twelve. And he said, “There’s only one problem in the world, and that problem is leadership.”

Kurt Francom: Yes, and he said that at a BYU devotional. And he was actually President Nelson’s bishop, when . . . President Nelson got baptized at the age of 16. Bishop Sill was his bishop, and then he ordained President Nelson a priest like a year later. . . . [And] then, later on . . . [Sill] became a Seventy. And he was, back in the ’60s–’70s . . . like the leadership guy . . . I mean, he wrote several books about leadership and had several talks, and just this concept of, there’s only one problem in the world, and it’s leadership. Like, if we can get leadership right, every other problem fixes itself. And that even goes for our salvation. The leader [Jesus Christ] came to this world and fixed it. He fixed us. He fixed sin . . . And it’s so fascinating hearing [Bishop Sill] talk about leadership. It puts me in such a mind of like, alright . . . we should figure this out. And it starts with that leadership.

So what are some principles we could bring to the table? What’s the research out there? . . . [We] can always look at the leadership and say, “Alright, whatever problem we have, it can be changed, it can be influenced by you.” And it doesn’t even have to be the formal leaders, like we’re all leaders to some capacity. And so we can all step forward, show leadership, and watch the problems in people’s lives disintegrate.

MJ: You talking about him makes me want to go back and read those talks. I think that especially applies in a Church setting where you know, we sustain the prophet, and we follow our Church leaders, but there’s also like a bottom-up that needs to be happening, and the Church needs everybody. And so we really do need to understand the significance of every Church calling. We need to give it all we’ve got.

I’m always so impressed by people who take a calling that some might consider not even like a leadership calling, and just do it to the best of their ability. I think about . . . a couple of people from my home ward in North Carolina. There was a lady in my ward who was like the perpetual nursery leader. And one Sunday . . . and I always thought like, maybe she’d like to do something else. You know, like, get her out of there. She’s great. She’d be great in a number of different callings.

But one Sunday, she bore testimony, and she said that she was at Walmart, and she saw this child. And she said that the Spirit said to her, “That’s one of your nursery kids too. “ Meaning, like as the nursery leader in that geographic area, every little baby was her nursery child, and I was like, “Are you kidding me?” Like salt of the earth, you know?

And then I think about my brother who had a Sunday school teacher who went around and, like, sat down with every kid in her Sunday school class just to get to know them. And that, to me, it’s like going above and beyond, but actually caring. So Kurt, as you have done this podcast, how would you say that you have seen that the problem in the world of the Church is sometimes leadership?

KF: Yeah. So, and I want to be very clear on this is that, you know, it’s easy . . . when we say leadership, we automatically think of formal leaders and say, “Oh, that’s the problem.” But oftentimes, the problem is sometimes we don’t turn to that leadership, you know. And God has solved all of our problems through leadership, one being the Savior, Jesus Christ, the leader, [who has] come and done it. Two is He’s restored priesthood keys, and He’s given them to leaders.

MJ: Right.

KF: And oftentimes, it’s not that, “Oh, those leaders need to figure that out. And if they knew how to use those keys . . .” no, no, oftentimes we don’t turn to them or turn to those keys as that opportunity to connect to Christ through His ordinances [and] covenants. And so sometimes it’s not just a leadership problem. Sometimes we are turning toward the wrong leadership, right?

There is this feeling at times that “Oh we don’t . . . I don’t want a leadership calling.” And it’s almost like we’ve been instructed and encouraged that we should not aspire to a certain calling, neither should we be asked to be released or those types of things. And so we think, “Oh, yeah, so I’m not supposed to desire to lead. So I’m going to just sit in my corner. And, no, I don’t want it and if they come to me with that request, I’m going to act like I don’t want it because you’re not supposed to want it.”

But I think we really disenfranchise a lot of opportunities in the Church for people to say, “You know what, I’ll go. I’ll do it.” Because here’s the interesting thing. The problem with aspiring is pride. When you mix pride in with aspiring, that’s the problem—not necessarily aspiring, because the first person to ever aspire was Jesus Christ. “Here am I, send me.” He stepped forward and said, “I’ll lead. I’ll be the leader because I love these individuals so much,” right?

So sometimes we get in this state of mind where we’re thinking, “Oh, I’m not supposed to want to lead.” But it’s just like that nursery leader, right, that step forward and saying, “I don’t need to–I don’t need a title, but I’m going to lead.” And so to me, that’s where the solution can come from. Not waiting around—because it’s easy to get into a state of mind thinking, “Oh well, if I was bishop, or if I was Relief Society president, I wouldn’t do it that way.”

Like no, no, no, but you are a Latter-day Saint, right? Like you have the power to touch hearts and to draw upon the Atonement of Jesus Christ, enable that Atonement, to go out and rescue individuals. Be a savior on Mount Zion . . . anybody can do that.

And one of the greatest lessons I learned from my time as a bishop is I had sort of had this epiphany. Like, “Oh, you know what, there are very few things that I do as a bishop that other individuals in the ward can’t do. But most of the things I do as a bishop, anybody can do. And so what I appreciate so much from that experience as a bishop is I left it feeling like, no matter where I go, I’m going to have just as much influence as if I was the bishop.”

I don’t need a title the rest of my life, but I’m going to lead—I’m going to have that influence. And this is part of our nature. And this is where the aspiring concept really gets messy, is that we feel like we don’t want to aspire and so we sort of push away callings—

MJ: Or hang back

KF: Yeah, hang back, and therefore we push away influence. And that was never God’s intention. We are God’s workmanship. I mean, God made us . . . a leader made us. Of course, we’re going to . . . have influence—and that’s sort of a buzzword right now, being an influencer, right? But anywhere I go, I can have just as much influence as any bishop, any stake president, any Relief Society president because of who I am, which is God’s workmanship. And that’s the state of mind that we should desire. Like, it’s okay to aspire to influence because Christ had influence—and when we have influence, we become more Christlike.

MJ: That’s powerful. I’ve never thought of it that way. And I love what you said about influence. And you mentioned it being a buzzword. I always say, you know, you are an influencer whether you want to be or not, you’re influencing the people around you. And I personally hate that word. I’m like anti “influencer” [as a] word, but I do think we have to be conscious of that influence and our ability to either influence for good or for ill.

KF: Yeah. Yeah, you know, because that’s exactly what the adversary wants us to do is reject the influence we can have on others. Because I want to make sure I’m not looking like I’m positioning myself to be the next bishop. Like, who cares what other people think . . . go and love and serve people. . . . [After] being a bishop, sort of having it behind me, I . . . feel liberated like I can do anything. And if people think I’m gunning for the bishop . . . I’m just like, “I’m engaged in the work of God and I want to influence people to come unto Christ, because I’m a Latter-day Saint, and I’m a leader.”

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