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[00:00:00] In the introduction of her new book, an Endowment of Love, Melinda Wheelwright Brown writes, what I've discovered for myself is that approaching the temple with my eyes, ears, heart, and mind focused on Christ's covenant way of living and loving has changed how I. Approach my life. Temple worship has become more than an occasional opportunity to recalibrate my eternal perspective amid mortality, messy middle.

It also creates space to practice the eternal principles of divine relationships that are gradually transforming me and my earthly relationships with those I love. This has been my experience with the temple. It was not until I desperately needed the temple in the here and now. That it became transformative for me.

President Russell M. Nelson has said, when you reach up for the Lord's power in your life with the same intensity that a drowning person has when grasping and grasping for air power from Jesus Christ will be yours. I believe that there is no place on earth where this is more true than in the temple.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown is an author and educator. She has a master's degree in Christian practice from Duke Divinity School with an emphasis in Christian education. She previously authored Eve and Adam discovering the beautiful balance. Mindy and her husband Doug have four children and five grandchildren.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have Melinda Wheelwright Brown on the line with me today. Melinda. Mindy, welcome. Yeah, thank you. So good to be with you. Well, it is always a treat.

Anytime I get to talk to Mindy, and I have been so looking forward to this, I admittedly am in the middle of your book, Mindy, and I am [00:02:00] loving it. I, I'll be honest, sometimes I like fly through books, but this one I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna cheat myself out of enjoying this book by flying through it.

Oh, that's very nice. For the interview. So I'm still in the middle, but I am, I'm loving it and feel like I'm learning. So much. Um, but we actually, I feel like we kind of talked about this book before the book ever was. Yes. We had, you and I talked on Instagram about this Temple Plus class that you have taught for, uh, is it a university stake in Provo?

Yes, it's an on campus. So, uh, kind of a freshman stake, but a, but a campus stake in heritage halls. Okay. Yeah. For five years. And you were, you were teaching that and you had not been teaching it that long when we did the Instagram Live, but you've taught it for five years now and you were already teaching this class when you decided to do something that I am so jealous of, and that is that you went to Divinity school at Duke?

I did. So. I am curious, what role, if any, did teaching that Temple Plus Class have on your desire to go to Divinity school? Or tell me how pursuing that education came to be. I. Sure, sure. Well, I had been thinking for several years that a master's program was hopefully in my future, but I was debating the topic and, and the focus.

But it was actually my first book, E Adam, discovering the beautiful balance that sent me. Just down all sorts of fascinating, amazingly wonderful rabbit holes as I did the research for that over a couple of years, and that really started out as a personal passion project and I. All of that research just opened my eyes to the wealth of scholarship that is happening around the world and literally has been for centuries and millennia.

I mean, you can go [00:04:00] back to bible commentaries, you know, so far back. And it's just intriguing. I mean, we, we don't have the corner on the Bible, of course, by any means, and so much great scholarship and study has been done and discussions about ideas and all these elements that are, are. So pertinent to all of our lives.

If every biblically minded person, there's so much out there. And so that study really opened that idea to me. And in fact, one of my favorite books in that, in that research was by a woman named Carol Meyer, who was at Duke Divinity School since retired. But it kind of put that idea in my mind, and by the time I finished working on that project.

It sort of felt like, man, if I'm ever gonna do this, let's like get some information and. All the pieces fell into place so quickly and ended up doing it a year earlier than I had intended to. But good thing because there your schedule never clears up and opens up for things like this. You just think, well, I'll figure it out.

We'll just let's go. And that's what happened. And I went through the two year program and it was truly the most delightful experience. Every day I felt like I had to pinch myself that this was real. It was just awesome. Well, I think that it's so, so cool that you were able to do it and, and I think. It's neat to think about, like you said, there's so much scholarship outside of our church that ties into our theology and into the things that we believe, and then I think we as Latter Day Saints have something to offer.

Yes. And sometimes we just think. Oh, well, we're different and our theology is different. But I think there's so many places where they cross paths and, and it's only by engaging as active participants that we're able to, to both learn and share. And so I'm wondering, what was [00:06:00] your experience in school like as a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and were you the only latter day saint in your program?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the Lord works in such mysterious, beautiful ways. I actually was not, I sort of had a companion through it. We joke that we were like mission companions, a woman. It turned out, I mean, she's like a sister to me now. She's absolutely one of my best friends on Earth. I love her so much. She saw me post something on social media before I was starting about a summer, like a project, like a pre-class work project, and she reached out, messaged me and said, I can't even believe this, but that's my pre-work.

Like pre-semester assignment, are we possibly about to start the same program? And she was from the other side of the country, but we lived fairly parallel lives and you know, she had kids at BYU and all this sort of stuff. Wow. So there were all these similarities. And of course when we finally connected, we just laughed and thought, oh God is so good, let's do this together.

It will be so much less scary if we have a friend to do this with. And so that was just a complete miracle and it actually, I think, made a big difference. Um, duke Divinity School has definitely had LDS students in their residential program. Okay. But the hybrid program, which is what I was doing, which we were doing, was a little bit different and a little bit new.

It had kind of emerged through the covid years and, you know, been fine tuned in that, um, a fabulous program. It was a master's in Christian practice. And would involve some time there at school, and then synchronous online work for six semesters, year round for two years. And, um, because Duke is a Methodist university, um, they, you know, I, I think there's some really sweet connections with John [00:08:00] Wesley that I think a lot of members of our church probably aren't quite aware of.

But he was a really respected religious leader. At about the time of the restoration, you know, before that a little bit, and in fact I was amazed to read just recently last year I was studying a book about, uh, the development of Temple Doctrine with Wilfred Woodruff and saw there that in that amazing experience Wilfred Woodruff had in the St.

George Temple that led him to do and oversee the proxy work for the founding fathers. And a lot of really prominent, amazing. Americans and otherwise, in the list of the, the work that he had done, like the very first day that he began, that was John Wesley, and I thought, that is awesome. That's fabulous because we really do have so many similarities.

In the British realm at that time, and then like in New England, you know, all these people were swimming in the same waters and, and being exposed to kind of the same ideas bubbling up simultaneously, I think. And I. There. There's so many similar ideas. I mean, I definitely learned a lot about the different denominations and kind of the different flavors of Christianity, if you will, and I think Methodism is a good fit with us and I'm not surprised that it would be Duke Divinity School that would be so welcoming, although I know others are as well.

And I think they just treated us like, Hey, if you wanna come to learn from us, great. We want as many conversation partners as we can find. And it was ideal for there to be two of us because I think one can be kind of written off as an oddity, right? But if there are two and you're getting along well with both of them, it's a little easier to think.

Huh? Maybe we should, you know, open our minds a little more to this, this group that maybe we haven't quite thought too much about. And so we were a good team for that. It was really a gift. [00:10:00] Yeah. By the mouth of two or three, right? Yeah, exactly. That's how it felt. And I mean, really we were listening more than speaking.

We were there to learn from them. We knew we were guests. Kind of invited to their playground and we definitely treated it that way. And I think that was a, a nice approach for us to take. But, um, our reputation preceded us in some regards. They, fellow classmates knew of our humanitarian work and could vouch for our goodness because of that.

So that was really a blessing and just general kindness. Um, people who knew members of the church. To whatever degree they would say, oh, I've known a Mormon before. You know, that's how they would refer to us typically. But they'd say, oh, you, you're so kind. Like, yeah, we can be friends. And so it, that opens a lot of doors.

So I was so grateful for all those people who had, had kind of carved a path out for us that really made it quite easy. It wasn't, it wasn't nearly as uncomfortable as we might've feared at the beginning. It was wonderful. I, I think that that's awesome and I think that it's always good to feel like we're kind of representing our faith.

I feel like growing up in, in North Carolina, I always kind of felt that way. Mm-hmm. And it held me to a higher standard and I actually love that for sure. Something. Mindy that I have been curious about with your experience is that liturgy is something we don't often discuss within our faith, but temple worship I feel like, really is a form of liturgy.

So how did understanding the liturgy of other faiths affect the way that you now view temple worship? Yeah. Yes, I do absolutely look at any sort of set language element of our. [00:12:00] Ordinances as being somewhat liturgical. And so I'd often thought about the sacrament that way before. Right? Those sacrament prayers are very precise and prescribed, and it was so excellent to learn more about the different liturgical practices and traditions because there were so many.

Interwoven threads with them. There were so many places that we, and by we, I mean like this companion, my good friend Allison, and then those that followed after us, because the next few years they continued to take additional members of our church, which was great. So we grew. We would kind of debrief constantly and say, did you notice that thing in worship today?

Like that's so similar to our thing here or there, or whatever. And just. Making the connection points. You know, I, I am a big believer that our, our temple roots are very ancient and I think, it doesn't surprise me in the least that, that we've branched off in various ways, but we see elements of it in each other's styles of worship, and they are so liturgically minded, more so than we are, I think.

And I think we often hear. You know, new temple goers pointing out the differences of. That the repetition and the sort of ritual elements that are in the temple because it feels so different than our Sunday worship style. But in that regard, we're so like other denominations, and I think if we exposed ourselves to more of their practices and attended more of their worship services, we'd be surprised by that and we'd be far less likely to point out.

What's unique and different about the temple because we'd realize, oh, we've [00:14:00] kind of split our sacred worship into two halves. We sort of have the communal, relaxed, impromptu half on Sundays, and then we have the higher style of worship in the temple. And in other denominations they may, uh, label their Sunday worship differently.

So on certain days. You might recognize that, oh, I'm invited to participate in this portion, but like, this is a high church service. I'll sit back and watch this other portion. They're asking me not to because I'm not a, you know, participating member of this tradition. And that really made sense to me. I thought, oh, I see how.

We're just not that different. And it made it so much easier to explain the Temple to them because it kind of felt like an immersion program in all of their languages. And it wasn't just Methodist. There were all it, it was, it is Christian based at Duke. And so they were, you know, all, all different sects of Christianity.

But it was great to learn their vocabulary and be able to explain it in their dialect really. And it was great conversation material. Makes you feel. I I, I think anytime you spend time with people of other faiths, you start to feel like, why, why am I so timid Exactly. About talking about the things that we believe?

Yes. Because other people don't act that way. No. And you know, from North Carolina, I mean, that's where Duke is, right? They're, they're so open and warm that southern hospitality is so real and there's. You know, they love the Lord and they love to talk about it. And so it really helped me loosen up. I didn't serve a full-time mission when I was younger, and uh, that's been kind of a scary thing for me to do.

But I found before along with them, I felt like, wow, I'm the worst missionary [00:16:00] here. You know, there's, they're all so good at it. So it was, they just, they had so many ways to offer great examples. They were just the best people. I, I adore them all. So it was great. Well, I'm so, I'm so glad you had that experience and I kept thinking, as I was reading the book, I was like, it's so interesting to think that Mindy started, like you said earlier with this book about even Adam, and that in recent years there's been so many changes within the Temple Endowment and that.

I feel like when I first went through the temple, it felt like there was more about Adam and Eve than there was about Christ. And I know that that probably wasn't actually the, that wasn't the point, but that's how it felt. And in recent years there have been so many changes to the Temple Endowment and.

On other podcasts that I listened to as I was prepping for this to make sure that we didn't, we've took full advantage of our time. You talked about how we've become more open as a people about what we covenant in the temple. It, it seems to me like there's more of a focus now on Christ and that he is at the center of our temple worship.

So I am, I want to know, for someone who wrote a whole book about Adam and Eve, why do you think that that is so important? Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, of course the Lord is at the center of his house. Right. And I think I was particularly trying to center love in my look at the temple in this book. Uh, the Lord's love for us and ours in return to him, and I think that even Adam are such.

Stellar examples of, well, the way that, um, elder Bruce Cen quite memorably described it, receiving. The Lord's atoning love and sacrifice. He, he famously [00:18:00] said that Christ's story is a story of giving the atonement. The story of Adam and Eve is a story of receiving the atonement. And I think that's a nice way to think about that.

And as you wrestle through some of the complexities of that story and some of the tension points that are so frequently pointed out, especially by newer temple goers, when they have more time to sit and really think about, wait a minute, this. Doesn't seem fair or whatever. Some of these elements, uh, I think you, you eventually work your way around to reconciling the complexities of it because Christ is kind of the missing piece.

I. That helps those puzzle pieces that don't seem to fit, like this is a, this is an object lesson we do a lot in, in our class, our temple class. I'll give a few students two pieces of puzzles that don't fit together, and then throughout the course of the lesson we'll just talk. Talk about how frustrating it is when you feel like these pieces of your life do not fit and you try every combination and No, there's just.

This isn't gonna work, and then later I'll hand them an additional piece. That's kind of the piece that makes the two. So then they just maybe hadn't thought that there's a piece they were missing, but that's just how life is. We so often don't realize, we just don't quite have all the pieces yet, but I think.

What we learn from Adam and Eve's difficult decision about when they were ready to partake of that fruit from the knowledge, uh, from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, is that they knew Christ and Elder Holland in his beautiful book, Christ in the New Covenant, talks about that they were fully familiar with the gospel plan.

They may not have known the specifics in terms of street smarts of it. They were kind of the getting the book smart version of it, having this tutoring experience there in the garden, but they knew the savior. They, they were having these interactions being tutored [00:20:00] by deity, and I really strongly feel that it's because of how well they knew him.

That they knew that this would work and that they could trust that we've gotta go through this and it's the right choice now. Um, and I think that's such a profound parallelism to what we experienced in the Premortal realm, where we believe that we all made the choice to accept God's plan as put forth by.

Our father and our elder brother, Jesus Christ. And it was because of how well we knew him. I think that we shouted for joy about that. You know, I, I think there were smart spirits there among us that we were at differing. Degrees of intelligence even at that point. And surely there were some who recognized, whoa, I don't know about agency for everybody.

That's, that maybe is not gonna go well for some people. And knowing how I know myself, I think I would've been very cautious about that, and that would've made me really nervous and I would've felt like, wait a second. That guy over there makes me nervous. I don't think you should give him agency. But I think it was because we trusted our savior, who was our savior.

Even then, we knew him in that role. It was an infinite atonement, and we were able to rely on him and I. Put our complete faith that he could do what he said he could do. And in that regard, I think their story is our story. That's why their story matters so much. And through the whole thing, it's about turning to Christ.

You just keep turning to Christ, and that's really the great plan of happiness, is to keep your eyes focused on him as you work through the complexities of mortality and the path forward. [00:22:00] So I think it all fits together beautifully. I don't see any conflicts in that at all. And now I think it's the imagery of Christ that we have so much more of in the presentation of the endowment that's really powerful and helpful for those who are a little unclear how all the pieces fit together.

Well, I want to credit you because I feel like you're. Even Adam book was so paradigm shifting for me to be able to see Christ in it. And so thank you. Thank you for that. But I, I also s well, first of all, I wanna say that is such a beautiful thought about the savior and, um, about coming to know him and, and that as we come to know him, I think here in mortality as well, that's when we're able to trust.

Yeah. In the power of the atonement. I selfishly would love to know. So I, we recently have been trying to introduce gospel principles in our home with an almost 2-year-old, and I will tell you, Mindy, I do not think there is anything cuter in the whole world than right now than my daughter saying the Book of Mormon.

She loves. Her Book of Mormon and she's obsessed with it, and I love that about her. I know it will not last forever. Um, and so I'm just hanging onto it right now. But I, I wondered, as a young mom, I. I would love to get your take on how you would approach teaching children about the temple. Where would you start and how would that kind of incrementally change as children get older?

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. Well. Of course, young children really aren't mentally capable of thinking abstractly, right? Which so much of the temple is abstract. Big ideas, right? So actually the place [00:24:00] I would start is fostering awe and wonder experiences that you share with your child. I say that because I think it's so crucial to tap into the feelings of awe and wonder that open your mind.

I mean, just like picture a peony, just blossoming. I think when we feel that sense of amazement. That comes with say, stargazing or getting down into the dirt and looking really closely at like a pill bug, like a potato bug, right? So amazing. Um, a butterfly. Uh, so many things in the natural world lead themselves, lend themselves beautifully to the feelings of awe and wonder.

And I think when we share those experiences, especially between a younger person and an older person, like a parent and child, it opens up wonderful. Discussion topics and you as the parent can model so well how to let your mind think expansively. And in my estimation, it's that it's that practice of expansive thinking that really can transform your temple worship experience because it's not meant to be prescriptive the way, say a primary class.

Is, or even a young men's or a young women's class, it's meant to sort of be the flip. You're almost flipping that on its head and you're bringing what you know and being invited to think bigger. It's a very mature style of thinking that we're invited to step into in the temple as we worship there. And that's something that actually little children have such a gift for.

Rachel Carson, the naturalist, wrote a beautiful essay and you can find this in book forms now called The Sense of Wonder. And she talks about having experiences like this with her nephew. And I think [00:26:00] when we do that, it, it just demonstrates how we think bigger and we can. Sort of melt into creation in a way that just opens our minds to it.

So I think that's a great starting point. And incidentally, I would just point out for those who are familiar with the presentation of the endowment, and this has been spoken of in general conference a few times and things, so this isn't new news, but it begins with a presentation of creation. That's kind of the starting point.

And if you look to. Amon teaching King la, he starts with creation and then he moves into the Garden of Eden story. I mean, this is a regular pattern that we see again and again, and I think it's because it cracks your mind open to these bigger ideas, and that's something children can Absolutely. I. Wrap their heads around at that level and in, in fact, they'll teach you, right, that like it's delightful to live through their curiosity and those innocent eyes and try to take in life like they see it.

And then opening up those channels of communication that you can keep nurturing as they get older and older. And that's priceless to be able to talk about. Really big ideas together is huge. And then I would say the second thing that's a little bit more practical and maybe when they're a bit older, and this is something that I try to really draw out in the book as I talk through the five kind of core covenants of receiving your own endowment.

There'd be the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the law of chastity and the law of consecration. None of those words are foreign to us. Like if you've been in the church for very long, you've had lessons about obedience, you've heard about sacrifice, you know, you've learned about these things.

And I think when we, I. Reframe those a bit as Christlike attributes that Christ modeled perfectly [00:28:00] repeatedly in his mortal ministry. We could really internalize those in our family dialogue and family discussions. I. And point out that those are, those are temple principles as well as they're everything principles.

They're principles for happy, healthy human relationships of ways to get along better and be happy together with one another and love each other well and love each other better, and those sorts of things. You could normalize those discussions so completely that by the time your children are ready to enter the temple to receive their own endowment.

There really aren't many surprises there whatsoever. Like they know that that's, that's the big idea. And they have this practiced way of opening their mind to those awesome experiences of personal revelation and, and your eyes just being opened to bigger and grander things, really the mysteries of eternity.

So those would be two simple kind of approaches. I love that and I will apply it. I noticed in your acknowledgements for the book that you thank your parents for their example of going yes to the DC Temple, and I love that because. My parents also went to the DC temple. Yeah. And it was a long trip and sometimes they would take us and we'd stay in a hotel, and the thing that I remember is them bringing out the big chocolate chip cookies from the cafeteria.

But I think that that left an impression on me. However, I don't think I really knew going into the temple what to expect outside. Meaning when I went in to get my endowment. Yes, and I, I appreciate that. It feels like now you can talk a lot more openly about what we're covenanting to do and just actually this last Sunday, I was teaching Sunday school and the lesson was on.

The [00:30:00] law of consecration, essentially. Mm-hmm. Yeah, true. And the youth are not in my Sunday school class, but for whatever reason they came in. And so I was like, oh man, how do I teach this lesson to youth? And it was a good practice for me and trying to, to rethink it, but I talked to them about how they've gone and done baptisms.

The Philadelphia temple is right across the street from our ward building, so I was like, how many of you have gone and done baptisms? Someday you'll make. Covenants, and I tried to explain a little bit about that, but I think, I think sometimes I love teaching Emma, my daughter, and I love the, the exercise of having to go back to the basics.

Definitely. And try to think of how do you explain this in a way that that can make some sense. Yes. Well, and there are so many similarities to draw out. I mean, when you're doing things in church. Like partaking of the sacrament. You can point out you're renewing a covenant just like in the temple. You know, you can kind of use that phrase, oh, just like in the temple, this is a symbol, just like in the temple, this reminds us of how much God loves us, just like in the temple.

So I think there are lots of ways that you can use a good example there, like our parents did for sure. Yes. Okay. That is so, so good. Another thing that I wanted to touch on, you talk about how the temple should be something that brings joy and help and comfort now that it's not something that is this far off.

Check a box and hope that sometime down the road we'll see blessings or receive celestial glory or whatever. But that the Lord wants us to experience the blessings of the temple here and now. What would you say, Mindy, to someone who that has not been their experience up to this point? Yeah. It is so hard to.

Kind of start [00:32:00] over and let go of some of those things, especially where there's maybe some personal pain involved with something that didn't sit right for whatever reasons at that earlier date. I think I. For those who feel that way. One thing that I often recommend, and there are students who I'll talk with, uh, about things like this, I find that they tend to really embrace the initial portion of the endowment, which is the, we call it the initiatory.

Um, it's much shorter, like liturgically. Like if we're looking at, at specifics like. Maybe seven minutes as compared to 90. And that alone makes it more digestible. But not only that, it's such a beautiful period of washing and anointing and clothing. That's, those are kind of the three elements of it as, as outlined on the church website and in the church handbook.

And. It's just gifts just being poured out on you. And sometimes I've had some, I've had some meaningful discussions, especially with young ladies who it's just such a unique experience and if they can just focus there for a while, maybe even a couple of months that they're just going to go and participate in the initiatory.

Just like memorizing a favorite scripture verse or the words of the sacrament prayer, it's just, it's much easier to wrap your head around seven minutes of material than 90, and just the repetitive nature of it can really sink in and slowly and gently soften your heart and the experience. It's also a little bit more one-on-one.

It's a little bit more interactive. It's a bit more embodied, [00:34:00] which I think is really ideal. I think every time we can combine the power of body and spirit to facilitate a soulful experience is really impactful to us, and the initiatory is profound in that regard. So that would be my first recommendation.

And then I think it's also valuable to. Have some conversations with people who love the temple, who you respect and admire mentors or friends. Um, and there are lots of ways you can do that. There's so many things we can talk about outside of the temple. You could have a conversation in a garden or whatever, or you can actually go to the temple with someone and sit in the celestial room in a corner and ask a few questions and just take bite-size.

You know, you don't need to tackle it all at once. It's meant to be a lifetime of learning and be patient with yourself. You, you're not expected to understand at all right now, but maybe find one element that resonates with you and put your focus there for a little while, and then when you're ready, move on to another and seek a little assistance from people who love you and care about you.

I love the thought that you shared about it being a lifelong pursuit and that this is something we shouldn't expect it to be. A you go and you absorb all the information at once. I am somebody, Mindy, that did not have the most positive first temple going experience. Mm-hmm. I think I shared that with you before, but I had a really good friend who said to me.

Go, go again soon, sooner rather than later. Right. And I, and I think that that was, that was really important for me. It was, it's kind of like a get back up on the horse. Mm-hmm. Like you, you didn't have the greatest first [00:36:00] experience, like, go again. And then another thing that that made a huge difference for me was I went and worked in the temple.

Yes. And I know that that's not possible for everyone and I didn't do it for a super long time. I did it for like 10 months. But just that being in the temple for that amount of time and being able to kind of have more time to digest the things that I was learning, I think were, that was hugely helpful.

Um, and so. Adding to what you said. I think just spending, spending time and being patient with yourself as you, you try to figure it out, I think is is hugely I. Helpful. Yeah. And in that regard, I think we can preemptively work to avoid some of those stories of the people that we love. One way that I often suggest to, to the students I work with is we've got a lot of cultural traditions about your first experience.

Yes. And just because your parents or your grandparents think you need to have a family reunion in the temple for your first time. That's not actually doctrine, right? You don't. Right. You really don't. And for some people it really will be a better experience if they just go with one or two close friends or family members, their escort and maybe one other, or just their escort.

You can go back a thousand more times. You can go one with everyone, you know? Yes, every relative can have their turn, but maybe the first time we just need to detangle. Our, our anxiety about a new experience that you feel like you're being watched during. Right from what you're actually experiencing in the temple, they get so tightly interwoven that it's hard to discern which is which.

So it's really not that difficult to relieve some of the pressure from your [00:38:00] first time. If you have understanding parents or friends who say, you know what, let's not make this one a party. When you're ready. We'll invite friends to go and we'll all go and then we'll go to dinner after, but maybe not your first time.

Right. I think that's such a, that's such a practical, good suggestion. Mindy, I wanted to ask a question about garments, and I think that that is one thing that is. And I actually think last time we spoke, it felt like a hotter topic than it does right now. But I still think that that sometimes that's something that gets a little bit lost in the shuffle of things is the why behind our temple garments.

And I'm curious with your divinity school experience, how that changed or shifted. Your appreciation for or understanding of our temple garment? Hmm. You know the, the church website has a wonderful little, I think it's about four and a half minutes long video about sacred clothing, and that presentation starts with a beautiful depiction of how so many of the ancient religions.

Have elements of sacred clothing, which sometimes we forget. And like that's something that became very clear in participating in a divinity school, uh, student body, is that lots of people have elements of sacred clothing that they're wearing. We have some differing opinions of what that's like. But, but people understand something that is sacred to you, that is a reminder, like you take a wedding ring.

It just is a symbol of a very sacred reminder. A lot of people wouldn't dream of taking off their wedding ring. They, it's, it's constant with them. Right. And for me, the very [00:40:00] constancy of the wearing of the Sacred Temple garment, to me, is a profound reminder of the constancy of God's love. Not, not that it is transactional in the least.

I think one of the most important. Grounding points to embrace is like my favorite scriptures in one John four 19, and it's the one that says, we love him because he first loved us. Like God's love comes first. He's gifted us with this sacred remembrance that is really intended to represent, I believe, uh, wrapping ourselves in his love.

The idea of the mother hen just gathering her chicks under her wings and those maternal images that. That he speaks of so much in in the New Testament and other scripture. And those are profound images that we can feel like actually in our bodies of being wrapped in love and care. And I think if we can present it and talk about it a little bit more in that regard and in that light, it's a lot easier to recognize.

That it's a gift and we can choose to receive that gift. And I think also there's a practical side to it as well. We can expect that it will take a little bit of time to get used to an additional layer and wearing that, there are ways you could prepare more for that. You could be a little bit more patient with yourself and know that just like your eyes adapt to the dark of a movie theater, your body will adapt to that feeling as well.

And just be kind to yourself and, and give it a little, a little time. And know that there's a whole department up in Salt Lake that works like 40 hours a week on improving the wearability, and they're making great strides. [00:42:00] They're really trying hard and they're so conscious of our, uh, fellow siblings around the world and some of the issues they are faced with.

I think we can certainly be patient while we help them with some of their challenges. You know, we typically have an opportunity every day if it's hot to get into some air conditioning, and some of our brothers and sisters in the world don't. So I'm so grateful that we're. Paying attention to their wellbeing as well.

And I think when we recognize all the work that's being done, we can appreciate those efforts and especially young people today. They're so incredibly inclusive and are always thinking of their brothers and sisters around the world. This is just another example of how, of how the church is striving to take care of the global family of God, and that's awesome.

So well said. Before we get to our last question, I wanted to ask you, Mindy. Clearly the temple means a lot to you. You don't delve into a deep personal study of Adam and Eve if you don't care about what you're learning about in the temple and you don't write a book. Trying to help people understand that the temple is, uh, an endowment of love without.

Caring about the temple and wanting other people to experience the joy that you felt from it. So how would you sum up what the temple has meant to you throughout your life and, and how has that love evolved for you? Yeah, I really do think it's shifted, like you said earlier, sometimes we do talk about it as if.

It's all about eternal blessings. And when we use the word eternal, we're talking about far away, like far distant in the future. I think it's really helpful to remember that eternity is now. It's the whole spectrum of time and we're in the middle of a portion of [00:44:00] eternity. We're experiencing it. And so it really is meant to bless us right now.

And I think when I started to recognize. First when, when I started to really make sense of how divine law is divine love. That was a huge step forward for me. And then when I started to see these covenant commitments as eternal principles of loving relationship, that could bless every relationship. I mean, whether it's with a parent, a sibling, a spouse, a child, a neighbor, a cashier at the grocery store.

A cab driver, Uber driver, whatever. These principles are profound and, and like I said, I think of them as Christ-like attributes and when we enter the temple in a sense that we're practicing them, the idea of actual Christian practice, you know, we use in our, in, in our tradition, we use the language of active.

More than we talk about practice, right? We talk about who's active in the church or whatever, but our Christian siblings talk about Christian practice, and it's kind of like yoga language, right? Like, like when you're participating in a yoga class, you're talking about what your, what does your practice need to be for you today?

You know? It's exactly what I was thinking of, right? Yes, yes. No, I, I think that's, that's a crucial connection point to make, to recognize that. It's, it's actually like practice. You're creating some muscle memory in your spiritual muscles of how to become more like the savior in our interactions with one another.

And when we recognize that those blessings are meant to walk right out the door of the temple with us, and we're meant to put them to use immediately, if we can see the benefits of it. Immediately, like the next hour and the next person we talk [00:46:00] to we're a little softer, a little gentler, a little more patient, all of those things, I think it relieves a whole lot of pressure on any sort of existential.

Challenges you might be feeling or any sort of, you know, big picture things that you're trying to wrestle with because you can lighten up on yourself if you realize I don't need to worry about what this matters in the eter, the distant eternities because it's making my life better today. So I'm just gonna keep doing this thing that's helping me be happier.

Right now, and every day I'm just gonna keep being happy. And lo and behold, down the road, you realize, wow, I'm like getting happier and happier. And I'm finding joy even in the thorny patches of life, which can be tricky. But I have figured out how to hold both. And again, it's because Christ is that missing peace that makes the, the pieces that don't seem to fit, actually fit together.

If you get Christ there as your center, peace. It's divine, right? It's like divine design. It just works. So to me, it's made an enormous difference in my daily life. And because of that, I almost don't need to worry about the distant eternities, and yet it also feels so much better because it makes more sense.

So for me, that's kind of been the trajectory of my experience. I certainly started off. Checking boxes and feeling like these were mile markers I needed to pass, and it was a finish line I was striving toward, and now I don't see it that way. I feel like every day is a new starting point and we just get to keep trying that it's all practice.

Well, it's a good thing that is all practiced because I need, I need a lot of practice. [00:48:00] We all do. We all do. Mindy, this has been a delightful conversation and I always enjoy getting to learn from you. My, my last question for you, and you've answered this question before, so, but I, I love. Hearing how people's answers change.

So what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Yeah, you know, honestly, I don't know that my answer has changed so much on this one because I really do live in this kind of. Adam and Eve Paradigm, I think in my life, and I, I really think being all in is about choosing life every single day and loving the sanctity of life and the, the challenges and the joys and the struggles and the, the successes of mortality.

They're all just meant to shape and form us little by little, by little, and the Lord is so. Incredibly perfect at making a beautiful use of every experience, every bright step, and every misstep. It can all be shaped for our good if we're just willing to keep trying. Just get up again tomorrow and start over again and see it as you know.

It's okay. It's all good. I'm gonna turn back to the Lord today. I'm gonna refocus my attention. I'm gonna let some of those bygones be bygones and loosen up on myself and lighten up, and as long as I'm watching him and following him, it's gonna work out. I think that's really giving it your all and having the trust and hope in, in his promises that it really will work out.

So I'm all in in that regard. Bring it on. I'll take the hard and the good. It makes the good so much sweeter. Right, and it's great to have the, the contrast between the two. It's [00:50:00] powerful learning material. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Mindy. Thank you. Pleasure to talk to you. As always.

We are so grateful to Melinda Brown for joining us on this week's episode. You can find her new book and Endowment of Love in Deseret bookstores now. Big thanks as always to Derrick Campbell of Mix at six studios for his help with this episode, and thank you so much for listening. We'll look forward to being with you again next week.