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Morgan Jones Pearson 0:00
In late June 2023, the United States women's national team finalized their World Cup roster. With at least one glaring omission. Ashley Hatch a forward who had been a frequent part of the team's camps leading up to the World Cup. Sports writers tried to make sense of the decision. Some even call it a head scratcher. But ultimately, we may never know what would have been had Ashley Hatch been given her shot at the World Cup. What we do know is that she is teaching us all a master class in handling disappointment. Ashley Hatch is a foreword for the Washington spirit and the National Women's Soccer League. Following her collegiate career at BYU she was drafted second overall by the North Carolina courage in 2017. After being traded the Washington spirit in 2008 teen she helped her new team to the National Women's Soccer League Championship. She and her husband Jeff Van Buren were married in 2019.
This is All In an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson. And I am so honored to have Ashley Hatch on the line with me today. Ashley, welcome.
Ashley Hatch 1:22
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
Morgan Jones Pearson 1:24
Well, I want to start off with kind of the elephant in the room, which is that a lot of people listening probably feel the same way I do. And that is we're all mad that you were not named to the World Cup team. You said that you were never given a reason why, but you responded in my opinion in about the classiest way possible, by expressing your gratitude for soccer and its fans and the chance that you've had to play. But you also said that you were heartbroken, devastated, disappointed, gutted, confused and lost. I wondered how have you continued to work through those feelings in the four months since that was announced? And how has your faith played a role in working through that?
Ashley Hatch 2:12
Yeah, I mean, I would say my faith has played a huge role in helping me through that. Like you said, it was a very difficult time. And it was very difficult news to have to hear and to have to do with. I had like, dedicated not only my whole career, but specifically the past like year and a half of my career, just like making sure that I did everything in my power to make that roster. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I don't make the decision someone else does. And so when I got the news, I was heartbroken. And I just like, I don't know, I just felt like I didn't have it in me to like, keep going with what I had. I was like, I need strength from someone way more powerful than me. And that was obviously my Heavenly Father, I, when I like knelt down and said My prayers at nine in the morning, I was just kind of like, I'm really lost, please help me. I don't feel like I have what it takes. I'm given everything I have to like this sport, and specifically making this roster. Like please just like give me strength. I'm so grateful for everything I have. This is one thing that I really wanted, it obviously didn't happen. Like, please help me to move forward. I don't know what that looks like. But I know that like I can do it. With you know, your help. I know I can do it. And so that was kind of like my consistent prayer. Just like as I went through the roller coaster of emotions while still trying to play and still find things that I was grateful for. Because I had like, everything else in my life I have so much to be grateful for right and this one thing didn't go my way. And I didn't feel like it deserved more attention than everything I was grateful for. So I tried to focus on the things that I did have been that really helped. And then I felt like my heavenly father answered my prayers through all the people around me that showed so much support. I feel like I was able to receive so much strength from my husband, from my family members, from my teammates from my coaching staff at the Washington spirit and then through so many strangers that just like reached out and like shared their disappointment as well. And I think something that I tried to focus on was not having this like disappointment of like bitterness, like, Oh, I hate the coach that made this decision or I hate the national team. More of just like disappointment and this was something I really wanted and I didn't get it. Um, and I feel like a lot of other people like share that sentiment with me and they had a lot of a lot of strangers and family and friends just shared like their belief in me that it wasn't fair. You know, my lack of ability do or who I was as a person is just, that's just how it goes sometimes. And so I feel like my prayers are answered, and I got that strength through everyone around me. And because I was saying those prayers, I feel like I was able to see that and accept that strength from people around me was still made it like, very difficult. But I was very grateful for all the support that I had around me, I don't think I could have done it. Without all the support I had around me. And I know, for my husband, too, was it was really, really hard for him because he's the closest to me. And he's seen all the work I've put in, but he's also put in a lot of work. It's a sacrifice
Morgan Jones Pearson 5:37
for him to write. Yeah, exactly.
Ashley Hatch 5:40
So I know he was gutted as well, it was really hard for him to see me go through that. But also, I know, it's hard for him to go through it all as well. But ultimately, I do feel like it brought us together. And we grew a lot stronger as a couple, just because a lot of the things that we want in life are very fleeting. And opportunities come and go. But it's like we had a sit down. Okay, what do we really value like, what really matters in our life, and the things that really, truly matter? Like we have. And so we know that we can continue to move forward in faith and still be really happy with what we have, and the things that we can control. So yeah, it was definitely I would say, the month or two after, and certainly while the team was still playing in the World Cup and the World Cup was going on. It was really difficult. And it was like a roller coaster of emotions. But I think the constants of you know, my family, and just focusing on the things that like I can control at work, but also at home, I think focusing on that. So it really helped me get to the point where I'm at today.
Morgan Jones Pearson 6:46
I think that you describe that so perfectly. And I think it's particularly hard. And while many of us listening have never had any shot at any kind of professional team, I think a lot of people can relate to a couple of things about your situation. One is that the decision was left to someone and it feels kind of subjective. I think whether it's like a grade on a test or grade on a paper, you know, a lot of times that can feel that way. And many of us have experienced different forms of disappointment. And that's one reason that I wanted to interview you, Ashley, is because I think that we all face disappointment. And I'm curious about what you would say you've learned about approaching those big disappointments in life.
Ashley Hatch 7:40
Yeah, I mean, I've learned a lot. I would say like in my soccer career, this is by far the biggest disappointment that I've ever had to face. But while going through it, and also like, reflecting back on it. And so kind of going through I feel like disappointments are an opportunity or setbacks in life are an opportunity for us to like really practice what we preach, right. So like, I have a friend or a sister that's going through like a really hard time. When we always tell them, you're gonna get through this, say your prayers, lean into your testimony, I do all these things. But when it's our turn to go through, are we really doing those things. And so my husband and I, we talk about this all the time, like, it's an opportunity to do either like lean into your face, lean into your testimony, or it's an opportunity to like, lean away or push it away. And so for me, I really saw it as an opportunity to lean into my testimony and to really just really dig deep and be like, what really matters in my life, because for the longest time, I kind of put this as a top priority for me. And in reality, I didn't get it. And that's okay. But like the real things in life that do matter, like my, my husband and our testimonies together and the life that we want to build, and the people that we want to be for our future kids, you know, those things like are what really matters, like how I react to this is going to play a big role in those things. And so handling disappointments is really, really difficult. And everyone goes through it differently. And there's different things that help other people. But for me, like leaning into my testimony, and one of my classes at BYU, I can't remember who said it, or if it was a quote from someone, but they said, If there's meaning if you believe there's meaning to life at all, and there's meaning and suffering, and I truly believe that. And so I knew that there is meaning in this I just didn't know exactly what it was. But I believe that was the reason for it. And I believe that whatever it was, I can come out stronger or I can learn a lesson or I can help somebody in the future who maybe goes through this like there's purpose to this. I don't know what it is right now. But I truly believe that and I think having a testimony in the in the plan of salvation and just like our purpose here on Earth really, is how I'm able to have that perspective. But I'm so I'm super grateful for that knowledge and just like my testimony and our purpose here on Earth, and that's ultimately what helped me get through the disappointment of the World Cup.
Morgan Jones Pearson 10:23
So, so well said, I love I love everything that you just said, I think that it's, it's so hard in the moment, I think, to see the purpose and any kind of suffering. But I love that quote that you shared, because then it helps you recognize like, even when you don't know what the purpose is that there may be something way down the road that we can see clearly. You've mentioned your husband a few times. And I wasn't going to ask you this until later. But I'm curious. How did you meet your husband?
Ashley Hatch 10:57
We actually met at BYU. I think it was probably like end of my junior year. One of my teammates at the time was dating one of his high school friends. And they kind of invited us both to like a group basketball game at the student athlete building. Oh, no, what's the Oh, the RV? Sorry. It's been a while since I've been Yeah, it's been a while for a while. Yeah. So they invited us to play just like simply good basketball. And that's where we, this first time we like met each other. And then we didn't start dating until like, a year, year and a half later. But that's what was the first the first time we blocked guys. Okay.
Morgan Jones Pearson 11:40
And then how did you end up reconnecting and starting today?
Ashley Hatch 11:44
Well, I was at that time, like, I knew I wanted to leave to play professional soccer. We like went on a date. And we like went on a couple of dates. But I was kind of like, I'm not ready to do anything seriously. I had just gotten out of like, a bad relationship. And I like was like, my eyes are set forward. And I was like, I'm focusing on myself. I'm focusing on my soccer career. And then I knew I was getting drafted to North Carolina. So like, we had like been talking the whole time. And he was like, ready to do and I was just like, No, I'm not doing this distance thing. And so he luckily stick around. And we were like friends for a good year and a half as I played in North Carolina, and then played in Australia. And then when I came back from Australia, I had gotten treated to the Washington sphere where I am now. And that's kind of when we started dating, officially, and then the rest is history. Okay.
Morgan Jones Pearson 12:36
I love that you played in North Carolina, because that's where I'm from. Oh, nice. And I also love DC. So I'm jealous that you're there now. But you've had, you've had a pretty remarkable career already. You were drafted. Second, overall, your Rookie of the Year, you were the league's top scorer in 2021. And you even won an sp in 2022. President Nelson said the Lord loves effort, I wondered how would you describe the effort that has been required to get where you are now,
Ashley Hatch 13:12
I would say it takes a lot of efforts. And I would say it's something I love putting in effort. I love working hard. And I think that's something that I've learned from a very young age, with my, with my parents, and my dad and my sister, we just practice soccer, any chance and any opportunity that we got. But my dad did a really good job of teaching my sister and I that like, it's an opportunity to, like, work hard, and it's a good thing. And it's something that we should like, look forward to like it's a privilege. And so I feel like having that perspective really helped me to just kind of like want to keep working hard, always wanting to get better, like, never like being complacent. And we were also told, like really early on that like, we've all been gifts been given these gifts, and you know, it's a waste if we don't try and like make ourselves better or work harder and put in that work and put in the effort. So yeah, I feel like it's it was taught to me at a very young age, and it's something that stuck in. I'm just gonna keep continue doing. Yeah.
Morgan Jones Pearson 14:22
Well, I, I, you were talking I was thinking so I am like a sports junkie and growing up I was a huge instilling. I am a huge UNC Tar Hill fan. And I watched this video years ago with Anson Dorrance and he was talking about how one day he was driving through Chapel Hill and he saw this girl running wind sprints in the park and he's like, she's running like back and forth and back and forth. And I believe he was either raining or was super hot outside. I can't remember which one, but he's like I pulled into the park parking lot because I was like who is this person out here doing this by herself. And as he got closer, he realized that it was me a ham. And he was like, that was the difference between me a ham and everyone else was like it was what she did when she thought no one else was watching. And for some reason that story has just stuck with me so much that like, that's the thing that makes anybody exceptional at whatever it is that they do. And I'm not exceptional at anything. But I admire people that are that put that extra effort in your job, Ashley requires a ton of travel. And you've said previously that your faith has played a role in that when you're lonely, or when you've had tough decisions to make. I wondered what role has your faith played in those lonely moments?
Ashley Hatch 15:50
Yeah, I think once again, it's played a huge role. Being a professional athlete is very lonely, like he said, because of all the travel and the time away from family, not being able to be you know, Thanksgiving, or celebrate Mother's Day or Father's Day with your parents. Long distance away from your significant other, it takes a toll on you. But being able to have, you know, my testimony and the gospel and the love that might have my father has for me, is something that I lean, lean into often I remind myself of often, especially those nights where I am feeling lonely. And yeah, I think just like being able to have that knowledge is what carries me through the hard times. But yeah, especially not being able to be around my word family on a lot of Sundays, just doing my own personal scripture study or doing a Come follow me lesson, over FaceTime with my husband whenever I can. Those things really give me strength and kind of carry me through a lot of travel and the hard times, but also the good times, but just also gives me purpose and reminds me of my higher purpose. And so yeah, it's really helpful to have that testimony with me as I travel.
Morgan Jones Pearson 17:12
Let me ask you this, Ashley, kind of as a follow up to that. I feel like being a person of faith is probably not incredibly popular within professional sports. What Why would you say like, if somebody were to say, Why do you need religion? What kind of stability does that provide? Why would you say it's worth it to be a person of faith within the environment that you're in?
Ashley Hatch 17:41
I mean, I would say it's worth it for so many reasons for me, like especially coming into this league professionally, coming from an environment BYU where I'm surrounded by a lot of people who believe similarly to me, and then coming into an environment where not very many, or no one believes similarly to me, it was really important for me to establish right from the get go like to myself, like, who am I? And who am I going to be and who am I going to choose to be in this environment? And am I going to let like outside, either peer pressure or circumstances like change that I thought it was really important for me to like, stay true to who I am, from the very beginning. And doing that has brought me a lot of peace and happiness. I feel like the way that we choose to live our lives, you know, helps us not only not only for me physically as a professional athlete, for example, like the word of wisdom, how I choose to like take care of my body and mind. That's something that I can tangibly see the difference between maybe someone who doesn't, hasn't learned that lesson yet, or who hasn't been able to see the benefits of actually taking care of your body, especially as a professional athlete. So that's one really good example of how I can see those benefits. But also, just, like I said earlier, my purpose in life and just how there's more to life than soccer, it's so hard sometimes to like show up to practice or training every day or to go through a whole season. And, for example, not make the playoffs and feel like you've failed or feel like everything, all the work you've put into this one sport has amounted to nothing like what's your purpose in life, it can be really difficult if you have if you don't have something else to kind of believe in or put your worth in. And so I know that I'm worth more than a soccer player. But when that's my job, it can be hard sometimes. And so to be able to share that perspective with others is really powerful. And I mean, throughout my years playing professionally, I've been able to connect with other Christians and that's been really, really cool. So we have we have a good amount of Christians on our team now who we gather for Bible study or before every game we have a prayer. And it's really cool to like be a part of that community and to find common ground with other believers. Various. And I feel like it's just like gives me a little bit of a sense of belonging, when we can share those beliefs and share that we all have this worst that's not attached to like our performance on the field.
Morgan Jones Pearson 20:13
Absolutely. I completely agree with that. Okay, and then going back to the quote that I read said, when you're lonely, or when you've had tough decisions to make, what does your decision making process look like?
Ashley Hatch 20:28
Yeah, I mean, I've had to make a lot of difficult, like, decisions in my life pertaining to soccer, whether it's doing to the draft, and do I play professionally? Do I sign this new contract that's going to keep my husband line here for the next four years? Like, do we do this or that it can be it can be stressful, but for me, for example, deciding whether or not I should enter the draft, it's something my processes, I always been praying about it, even if it's like, I know, I have to make this decision in like two months, I'm gonna pray about it now. And I'm gonna get as much information as I can possible about this decision so that I have all the information to make the right decision. But I'm also going to lean in on what inspiration and what feelings I get, while I'm going through this process of making the decision. So with the draft, I entered, I asked as many questions to the people who've been playing in the resale as I could I ask them what their experiences were, I was like, give me the good, the bad, the ugly, like, tell me everything. And when it came down to like, making that decision, but I just had an overwhelming feeling of peace. Like I obviously, I didn't know where I was gonna get drafted. Didn't know if I was gonna be successful. I had no idea when it was going to entail, but I just had this overwhelming feeling of peace. And so I was like, I'm gonna continue to move forward. And so I feel like that's kind of how I've made even like marrying my husband. I feel like we dated for a good amount of time, we like really, really knew each other well. But ultimately, like anyone who's been married, it really is like this leap of faith, you don't truly know until you get married, right. So there's something that I obviously was praying about, I feel like we were doing all the right things and having the tough conversations and doing everything in our power bowl. To me, at the end of the day. It was the peaceful feeling that I had, when it came down to like saying yes to marrying him. That made the most sense to me. So my decision making processes kind of like that, get all the information that they can pray about it. And then what what feeling and inspiration Am I getting? And is that going to help me move forward? Or should I not move forward and explore another option?
Morgan Jones Pearson 22:43
Those are such good, such good thoughts. And I think you have had to make a lot of big decisions for someone your age, so props to you for handling all of that. You mentioned again, choosing to marry your husband, How has being married bless your life.
Ashley Hatch 23:04
Oh, tremendously. I tell Jeff this all the time, and I'm gonna keep telling you it until I'm done playing soccer, but like, I tell him I wouldn't. I know I wouldn't be playing professional soccer to this day if, if we hadn't been married. It is really difficult. A lot of people only see the good moments or they only see the awards or you know, the six fun part. Yeah, exactly. But day in and day out. It's it can be a grind. As a couple we've had to make a lot of sacrifices, and mostly on his end, you know, like my life has kind of led us to live across the country away from our families. But he's been nothing but supportive, like never once has complained. Or kind of been like, When's it my turn to like, choose where we get to live? So yeah, he plays a huge role. And I just appreciate and love him so much. And yeah, I I wouldn't be where I am today. If it wasn't for him at all. He's like loves work.
Morgan Jones Pearson 24:09
I have loved I as I was preparing for this episode, this interview, I kind of look through your Instagram and you two seem to have such a great relationship. And I admire that very much. You were very involved in the Washington DC temple open house playing for the Washington spirit. And you even brought your teammates to the open house. What was that experience like? And you said in an interview with the church news that you were surprised by how vulnerable you felt, sharing the temple with them which the temple is like such a big part of what we believe and I think sometimes, if we think about it, and we're like, I'm gonna be telling them that we go in the temple if we do work for the dead, like that is a vulnerable thing. So tell me what you learned from that. experience.
Ashley Hatch 25:01
Yeah, I learned a lot. It was, obviously the tempo of the DC tempo open house was something that had been on my radar for like years because like it was so, so open, then COVID. And so like, I had that marked on my calendar. And every time it moved, I scratched it out and put it just because I was like, What are the chances that I'm playing out here and this like iconic Temple is having its second open house, like, that doesn't happen, you know, and I was just like, this is a really cool opportunity. And I had gotten invited to be a part of the sports and cultural committee. So my responsibility was just to invite anyone and everyone to like, come into the temple and be a part of this, like, really unique opportunity. And so I was like, super excited, and kind of like selling my teammates on it, if like, Hey, we should come like tour this, like amazing building. And, like, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity, I probably shouldn't say that. Because anyone can come again, you know, if they want to, you know, become a member of a church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So maybe it's not a once in a lifetime opportunity, but kind of just like trying to get my teammates excited about it. And I was fortunate enough to have a handful of them come. And I had gone through the week previously, because it's like, okay, I want to, like prepare myself before, so that, like if they have any questions or whatever, like, it's not the first time I'm going through the open house tour. And so I went through, like the week before, and I was like, This is amazing. It's a beautiful temple, it's going to be so fun. And I was kind of like focusing on the architecture and like the things that I thought that they would be like we're interested in, right? I've been through so many cathedrals like in Italy, that's kind of like what I focused on. Right. And so that was like, I was kind of like, okay, like, What can I tell him about the building, which is like, really important and really cool. But like what we do and inside of the temple, and the purpose of the temple was actually like the real importance. And that's like, the real stuff, right. And so, as I was going through, and as I was like, listening with my teammates, who I know nothing about the temple, I felt so vulnerable, because I was just like, wow, this is a really big part of my life, and a really big reason why I am the way I am, why I choose to live the way I live. And I'm just sharing this with my teammates, and I don't know what they're gonna think about me or what they're gonna think about this. But it's really cool. And I'm really glad I had the opportunity to share this with them, it could be going right over their head. And they can be thinking, well, actually, it's really weird. Or they could remember that the feelings that they felt in the temple, and they actually had like, a lot more questions like about like, the substance of what goes on in the temple, and like really good questions. And I felt so stupid about like focusing on, you know, like the architecture and like, I don't know, things that I felt that they would be interested in. But yeah, it was a really like, vulnerable experience. I learned a lot, I really enjoyed it. And I actually had a teammate, which she brought her husband along with her, which was really cool. And she was actually from Sweden. So English isn't their first language. But I know that they felt the Spirit while they were in there. And I know they couldn't understand everything that we were saying, because we were probably talking too fast and talking about things they normally don't talk about. But we actually had a Challenge Cup semifinal game, the week after, and we had a really cool experience where we're going to the temple, in the celestial room where the person that was giving us our tour, like let us sit there and silence for two minutes. And kind of before we sat there in silence, he just talked about like, how the temple was a place where we can escape from all the outside noise and how we can like feel God's love for us. And we can also have this sense of like peace. And it was a really, really cool experience. And my teammates got to sit there and silence in this lecture room for two minutes. And then like once we got out, we went into, I think the ceiling room. And we talked a little bit about the feelings that we had felt. And my friend, she said that she felt it was so quiet, it was loud. And she says she felt like so much peace. And it was a really cool feeling like something that she's never felt before. And so fast forward to a week later, we had a Challenge Cup game that went into Piquet's and anyway like if you know anything about penalty kicks, usually the top five ticket right but then it's one on one after that. We went through it 10 penalty kicks so everyone but one person on the team at it take one and she's she stepped up she smashed her PKD upper 90 like beautiful, made it she's one of my best friends on the team. I was so happy for her. We won. And after the game I went up to her and I was like oh my gosh, it was like, too late. That was amazing, like, good job. I'm so proud of you, because she's a defender. I know, she was so nervous. She didn't want to have to do that. But she did it. And she was like, You know what helped me step up and take that PK. I was like, what, like, I had no idea what she was gonna say. And she was like, I knew that I needed help from like a higher power than myself. She was like, I was so nervous. She was like, so I went back to your church, and the feeling that I felt when I was there, and it calmed me down. And I was able to step up and take that TK. And like, I was just like, oh my gosh, that's like amazing, just because, like, I was so happy that she was able to get a glimpse into the piece that I'm able to feel when I remind myself of like, the peace and the love that my savior offers me. And it was just like, really, really cool. I haven't talked to her more about it since then. But it was just really cool to know that I was able to share that was one of my best friends. And the whole overall experience was amazing. But just like have that follow up experience with my teammate was like, kind of surreal. And something I'll definitely never forget.
Morgan Jones Pearson 31:09
That's such a great story. I think that's kind of the essence of the focus on like, love, share invite is like, the point is not when we say like invite it's not invite them to be baptized, you know, it's invite them to feel those things that we enjoy on a regular basis as a result of our membership in the church and our understanding of the gospel. Okay, so you said even before the World Cup decision was announced, that you were asked, What would you do if you didn't make the team? And you said that you would be disappointed, but that you would turn your attention to preparing to try to make the Olympic roster? I assume that's what you're currently focused on? What would that opportunity mean to you? And what does that preparation look like?
Ashley Hatch 32:01
Yeah, I mean, the opportunity would, would mean a lot, I mean, but going through what I went through, I'm approaching it a little bit differently. I understand that, like, if I got the opportunity to play for us in the Olympics, I would cherish that so much. And I would be so excited, so honored. But I also know that if that opportunity doesn't come my way, that I still have lots to offer the sport of soccer, and that I have so much more value than that. So it's kind of, it's kind of a like a catch 22. Like, I've learned so much through not making the World Cup roster, but it is something that I really wanted. And it's still something that I really want. And I think it's okay to like have both, like be disappointed, but still want it. And that's kind of how I feel about the Olympics, like, essentially, that's going to be a harder roster to make, because the roster size is smaller. There's also so many like unknown variables with a new coach and the decisions that they're going to make or the decisions that US Soccer gonna make. So there's so many things outside of my control. But my focus is putting myself in the best position to get named that roster. So I'm gonna continue to put in the work every day, to become the best player that I can be playing with the Washington spirit, like in the offseason, making sure that I'm available. So if I do get the call that I will, and I know I can make a difference. So yeah, that's my focus. And that's what I'm just gonna continue to do.
Morgan Jones Pearson 33:33
Well, we will absolutely be rooting for you. I so appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. My last question for you is the question that we asked at the end of every episode of this podcast, and that is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Ashley Hatch 33:51
For me? That's a tough question. But it's such a good one. There was a quote that was shared with me, I'm sure you've heard it like a long, long time ago, I think probably like young ones or something. But it was live so that those who don't know him want to know Him because they know you. And I think that's what it means to be all in. For me, it's just to have the light of Christ and like, your testimony and confidence in yourself and in the Gospel just kind of radiate through you so that when you meet people, they feel that love. And when you're making decisions, having the gospel and the things that truly mean the most in life, lead your decisions and kind of guide the decisions that you make in your life and the direction that you want to go. So I know that's kind of a long answer, but that's for me, that's what it would mean, or does mean to be Oh, and then the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Morgan Jones Pearson 34:52
Perfect. Ashley, thank you so much. You are awesome.
Ashley Hatch 34:56
Morgan Jones Pearson 35:00
We are so grateful to Ashley Hatch for joining us on today's episode. Big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode and thank you for listening. We'll look forward to being with you again next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai