Ep. 297 | All In

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[00:00:00] Catie Borland and I have been best friends for over a decade, over a period of about five years. She let me see glimpses of a private struggle she was facing with her faith, but I admittedly didn't know the extent of it until it reached a boiling point. We each have a story of faith that is ongoing and requires daily attention.

But on today's episode, Catie shares hers up to this point. She is joined by the person who is by her side the entire time. Her sweet husband, David. Catie and David Borland first met while attending Southern Virginia University, originally from Virginia and Colorado. They have raised their young family in Nashville, Illinois, and now North Carolina.

They're the parents of five kids, one of whom is named after me.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have my friends, Catie and David Borland on the line with me today. Catie and David. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks. Yeah, thanks for having us.

Well, I, this is such a treat for me. Listeners should know that Catie is one of my dearest friends in the world, and Catie and David have just been, I. The epitome of true friends to me. And so as we talk today, just know that I love these two so much. Um, but I wanna start out with the two of you grew up in the church, but from what I know, you kind of had different experiences with your faith growing up.

So I wondered if you could, we could start by having you share a little bit about your faith up to the point of the experience that we'll talk about today. Yeah. So I grew up in the church and I would describe my faith as strong. I was [00:02:00] unashamed, unashamed of my faith. I lived it confidently, openly, was willing to speak about it.

Although not a perfect person living the gospel felt pretty easy to me and I found a lot of joy in it throughout my whole life. Yeah, I, I think, well, and I think mine was a little bit different, although very similar. I grew up in the church. Parents were members, they were converts. Uh, my parents actually, before I was born, I'm the youngest of six, and so my parents converted when they had three kids, so it was well before I was born.

But my parents were always super faithful. So I think as an example, to me, I always had that, and I just had this firm example, very good example, but I didn't always listen that example or follow that example, maybe growing up, up until a point where, you know, it became time to either go on a mission or not go on a mission.

I remember that being a big decision in my life, thankfully, and it was probably the best decision I've ever made, was to actually go on a mission. And, and that changed the trajectory quite a bit of, of my life in general. But it all came from a foundation of a, of a home that was, you know, that was always following, you know, the teachings of the prophets and doing the things that they, they learned in church.

Although I was probably a stubborn teenager up until a certain point where I hope, you know, tried to figure it out at least. Yeah. Okay. So tell me a little bit about when you first remember maybe just feeling less confident in your faith. Yeah, you know, I don't know that I realized it right away. I kind of describe it as when you're going on a walk with a friend and you have a destination that you're trying to get to, but you get talking, you're walking, you get a little distracted, and then all of a sudden you're like, wait, where are we?

Did we, did we pass our destination? Did we make the wrong turn? What time is it? Where are we? How did we get here? [00:04:00] And I, I feel like it was. A little bit like that for me. I can't remember a very specific moment. I'm sure there were many little moments where I was like, wow, I, I, I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I'm, I'm questioning this or, or doubting this.

But mostly I was just so distracted that I, I didn't realize it for, for quite some time. I remember you talking to me about it and you said you felt like at one point you were having like an out of body experience, like I. How is this happening to me? Which I think it is a very, like, genuine explanation of, of how that feels.

And I think that it's a very real thing to have those moments where it's like, well, I've, I've heard about things like this, or I've seen other people go through something like this, but how is this happening to me? David, for you, when did you first start to feel like you realized that Catie was struggling?

You know, I think that's interesting. It's probably when she told me, right? Like where, where I don't think I noticed anything. I was trying to think hard about like, did I, you know, did I notice anything? Did I see any, any changes in her? And I really didn't. But, but I think one of the most important things is like, we just had, I think credit to her mainly was we just had a, a great relationship built on communication.

And she's so good at just keeping an open line of communication and making sure. That we talk openly about any and all things, and we have a safe place for each other. So it's that, that's probably, I, that's gotta be, when I really noticed was when she started talking about it openly with me, of just the things that she was thinking, what she was going through, what she was feeling, and, and so there wasn't any behavior change.

It was just certainly things that she had obviously been thinking about and pondering on and then, and then wanted to talk about it. So I, I would say we were trying to [00:06:00] think about timeline of when that, I don't think it was much longer after she started really feeling these maybe doubts or concerns or started to think through, you know, what she believed and then we would, we would have some pretty good conversations about it.

So right away, I guess is the, the short answer to that is pretty, pretty quickly. So a term that I feel like a lot of people use and I feel like I. As a bystander observing Catie, what you went through with this? I feel like it's probably the closest thing that I've ever seen to this term, a deconstruction of faith where it's like you, you work throughout your life to construct.

It's like a, if you were building a home, you know, you've worked throughout your life to build something up, and then somehow it starts deconstructing, falling apart or like the wheels start to come off. And, um, I feel like based on just the, the things that you've shared with me, it feels like it, you know, started with these little doubts and then little by little it was like, started gaining speed a little bit.

And so I wondered. You, you go from this point of, of having, you know, little doubts enter in to a point where you told David and your mom that you weren't sure where your faith was gonna land. You weren't sure what was gonna happen in the end with you and your membership in the church. How would you describe kind of that period from when you first started to feel doubts or have questions to getting to the point of being like, I don't know if I'm even gonna remain in the church.

Yeah, it was all consuming really. It was so hard and worrisome and scary. Just really scary because like you [00:08:00] said, you've built this up. Things have been great. I hadn't had really any experiences where I. It would get knocked down. And so all of a sudden to say, well, I don't know about this, or, gosh, that kind of makes sense, or I, I don't know what I think about that, and just kind of start, figure it out.

It felt so scary, but also felt necessary. It felt like I needed to do this because I was a truth seeker. I wanted to know the truth. And as I continued on that path, there were, there were times where, you know, I remember feeling like, heavenly father help me like this. This is scaring me. And I remember these words enter into my heart and it was, I love you too much to rob you from this experience.

And I held onto that because it, it then felt like as scary as this was, it did feel necessary for me to, to go through what I was going through, to go through this wrestle so I could really come to know him on a deeper level and, and to find the truth, whatever that was going to be. And so I remember when I called my mom, so David and I had, had been having these conversations for quite some time, my mom and I would as well, but you know, David and I live together, so we're, we're having these conversations quite a bit.

And he was amazing. And so when I would call my mom. She was also my safe place to kind of fall apart. And so [00:10:00] she heard lots of my questions and a lot of rebutting. And, and I remember when I told her mom, I was, I picked up my phone to call her to let her know, because this is where it was headed. I, I didn't know if I was gonna be in the church anymore.

And I said, mom, I, I don't know that I'm, I'm gonna stay. I don't, I don't know that this is where I'm gonna land. And, you know, you kind of brace yourself because you love your parents and you don't wanna disappoint them. Um, and also my mom is so strong and so faithful, and what she said to me gave me so much confidence.

She said, Catie, I'm not worried about you one bit. And it kind of took me by surprise. And she said, because you are a seeker of truth, and I know you're keeping God in this, so I know you're gonna land on your feet. And it did not feel like you'll land right here in the gospel. You'll see. It didn't feel that way.

It just felt like she wanted me to know that because I was keeping God in it, that I was gonna be okay. And I didn't have that confidence. And so I, I remember being able to just stand up a little taller and I borrowed that confidence that she had in me and it made me want to keep going. It, I remember saying in my head, okay, well hold on a minute.

Maybe I, maybe I. Maybe I can keep going. Maybe I can. That's right. I, I am keeping God in this and it was just what I needed to hear to, to continue on and try to figure things out with God. [00:12:00] I love that story about your mom. Your mom is one of my, one of my favorite people in the world, but I, I wanna touch on a couple of thoughts that I had as you were talking.

One is, I think it's interesting, I feel like past generations there was a tendency to just, and, and maybe it was true or maybe it wasn't, but the assumption was if somebody left the church, they were wanting to rebel. In some way, something that about who they wanted to be didn't align with the church.

And I think that now more and more, and maybe it's because of the increase of information and our, uh, our access to information, but more and more there are people that want to find answers. And so it's not that something about who they are doesn't align with the church. Because in some cases that I've seen, I feel like everything about a person is like the church is foundational to who, some of the people that are leaving who they are.

And so the idea that, that somebody could or would feel it necessary to step away from something that is so foundational to who they are, that's a. That's a scary thing for somebody to do and it's because they want to do the right thing. And so sometimes I think we're seeing that more and more instead of this like, oh, well they wanna be a rebel.

They want to, they wanna do something that doesn't line up with what being a member of the church is. Instead it's like everything about that person stems from their membership in the church and without the church, well then they have to like start over and figure out how to be a new person. And I think that that's really scary for people to do.

And so I think it's [00:14:00] important for us to recognize, like, this is not, it's not always just because somebody wants to do something that doesn't line up with being a member of the church. That definitely was not you. Does that make any sense? Absolutely. You know, and we, when David and I were, would have conversations about, okay, if I'm not gonna be in the church, what does, what does that look like?

I remember him asking me like, well, what do you plan on doing as far as word of wisdom or this or that? Like, what are you, and I had no desire to live any other kind of way. Like you said, it's not, it's not that way. And yeah, I, I think it's people who just are good people. The, these people who are going through these hard times and, and trying to figure it out are, are good people.

Like my mom said to me, you are a seeker of truth. And you know that that was exactly what I needed to hear. Because sometimes I think people who are in my spot can also look at those in the church. And, you know, just be like, they think I'm this, they think I'm that right and right. And that's not, that's not always true either.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like, I, I do think that that part of, even now it's just like I've had plenty of friends that have left the church, grew up in the church, the whole, like, same story. I mean, we hear a, a, a lot, but I've had good friends that have left. And I think it's just so different now. I used to think that, or maybe this was true, maybe this is just the way I've experienced sort of people leaving the church in the past.

They were angry, they were mad or they wanted to do something different. Like, it was just a very different feel than it is today where it's much more delicate, I'll say. Or it's this. Idea that, [00:16:00] um, something else makes sense or, you know, these, the, I I mean, we were talking about this, the idea of these flattering words that that comes to mind.

Right. It's just, it sounds easy. It sounds good. Oh, that makes sense. So, yeah, what about this, or what about that and then, and this idea of knowing better or whatever it may be, but it's much more subtle, I think, today than it's ever been. Um, I think the adversary is just getting a little bit more tricky or, or, you know, wise to what's, what's gonna be attractive to the times.

And, and we see it happen all over the place. I think one of the things that made me feel much different about Kate's situation was what she, what her intent really was. I mean, and I only knew that because of our conversations, right. You know, her intent was to seek God. Um, and I knew that the only way, like there was no, there was not gonna be any convincing from me, right?

There wasn't gonna be anything that I could say to convince her. That the church was true or convince her of anything, that any, you know, any belief that she had to go through that on, on her, I say on her own. I mean, I'm, of course I'm there, I'm gonna support, but she had to figure that one out and she had to feel that for herself.

'cause there's, there's no amount of facts that you could line up. There's no amount of, you know, ideas that you could, you could position a certain way and that was never gonna work. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I think I probably learned that on my mission. I would say, you know, there's many times where you wanted to, you know, convince somebody and watch this, I'm gonna, you know, throw out a few scriptures and bible bash and then somehow they're gonna just say, yeah, you know what, you're right.

Like, that didn't happen one time. Like Right. Not once would they be like, you know what? You're right. All those facts that you just laid out for me, like, you're actually right. I think I'd like to get back. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't ever happen. And so I think part of that, I mean, I didn't, conscious consciously, like I wasn't thinking that.

But as I've reflected on that, I think that's probably what it was. It was just I knew that [00:18:00] convincing her was never gonna be the solution, although I wanted to, like, there were so many things and, and so could I share my thoughts and could I share my testimony? Could I share my, and we had plenty of those conversations where she's like, how do you know?

Like, how do, like, do you really know? And I remember, you know, a couple of these, the moments and, and like, I mean, talk about a, a test of your faith right there. Like, it, like, do you really know? Are you sure? Like, how, but how does that work? And so we had a lot of those conversations, but it didn't like, I mean, maybe that helped, maybe it didn't, but it wasn't gonna be to convince her to try to change her mind.

Um, that was never the intent. The intent was to just trust, sort of trust in the process. Trust that, that it, it was gonna all work out, not knowing how it was gonna work out. And many times thinking that it might play out in the way that I wouldn't have been, at least in my mind, ideal. Um, because that's certainly the way it was going.

And so there was, there was a lot of touch and go. There wasn't, there wasn't just, you know, I had plenty of moments where I felt, um, yeah, I mean, nervous. I don't know how the best way to describe it would be, but, but definitely discouraged at times. I mean, certainly, but had to give her space, you know, had to be able to give her space to work it out knowing that her true intent was to seek God and that it would, it would work out.

The spirit is the one that converts, right. Like, so it, I knew it was gonna work out, or at least I was confident it would, and I'm, I'm thankful it, it has, but, but there were many times where, where, um, that was certainly, you know, in question or a worry for sure. I, uh, first of all, it's funny 'cause when you were saying that about, I, I can't convince her my, I had the exact same thought of like, oh yeah, I learned that on my mission.

And then you said the same thing. But I, I wanna touch on really quickly before we get any further, I think that as a friend, and, and [00:20:00] maybe this is helpful for people to hear, I didn't realize where it was at because Catie, we were not talking regularly. It was like, occasionally I would get a little glimpse and be like, uh, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure where Catie's at. But you shared with me since that you stopped wearing your garments, you put your scriptures away. Were those deliberate decisions that you were making or was it just like Yeah. How did, what was going through your mind as those things were happening? Yeah, I wish I could say that there was a moment where I was like, I'm not wearing my garments ever again, or I'm not gonna read my scriptures.

I think I was so distracted by all of the noise and all of the things I was listening to and, and learning about and just busyness of life and not creating any still stillness in my life that I, I can't even say that this was the moment that it happened, but just gradually, right? Like we always read the Book of Mormon with our kids every year, and I just kind of stopped doing my part of trying to gather everybody.

I wasn't keeping my scriptures out anymore, just, yeah, just wasn't wearing my garments anymore. And. It just happens so gradually and slowly. I, I always say to David, a question I think everybody should ask themselves is, if Satan was to get me, where would he start? And I think the answer's going to be different for everybody.

The answer's gonna be different. For David, for me, for you, and as I ponder on that question, I think where it started for me was this desire to learn more and know more [00:22:00] and understand more. Taking something so good, right? Mm-hmm. This desire I have and listening to the opinions of others, and I started noticing that I.

When I noticed this, this is when there started to be a shift for the better. But I didn't notice right away, but I was forming all of my opinions after I heard what other people thought about it. Okay, so what do I think about this? What do I think about the garments? What do I think about the church?

What do I think about conditioning? What, what have I been conditioned? What does this person think? What does this, what does this article say? But also what is, you know, what is this influencer say and what they say. Like David was saying, we've talked a ton lately about the flattering words. They're not these big scary words.

They feel good. They, they sound good. They, they sound right and they make a lot of sense. And so I would listen. To what they had to say. And then I would listen to what this LDS influencer has to say. And so it wasn't all just people who left the church, right? It was people in the church, this article, this podcast, this, you know, uh, Sunday school teacher.

And I wasn't going directly to the source. And when I realized that, I just thought, no, I'm cutting all of this out. I'm cutting out. I made a deliberate decision. I'll never forget it. I said, I'm shutting it all down. I'm not listening to those who've left the church. I'm not listening to this friend that's in the church, right?

And I'm not listening to the person in the middle. I'm not listening to anybody because I wanna [00:24:00] know from God. And so. I shut it all down. I remember I said, I'm not gonna, I'm not getting on Instagram. I got off for a few months where I was getting a lot of my news and I even said, I'm not, uh, pride, stubbornness, whatever.

I said, I'm not listening to anything. I'm not reading general conference talks. I'm not gonna do anything, but I will talk to God because these were the two truths that I held onto through this whole thing. I knew that there was a father in heaven and I knew I was his daughter, and that was, that was all I carried with me.

And I said, I'm gonna let that be enough. And it was interesting. I remember the first week was miserable. I think it was actually 11 days. It was so. So miserable. I was annoyed with everybody because I had no distractions. I had zero distractions. I said, I'm not gonna watch tv. I'm not gonna read a book.

I'm not gonna do anything. And it was absolutely awful. Like it was horrible. But noticing how terrible and awful it was made me think, okay, I gotta keep with this. What I can't believe. I cannot sit still without all of these distractions. And so everything in my head just got louder and, and crazier. And I just said, I'm gonna keep with it.

And I remember, I think it was about 11 days. All of a sudden I felt stillness and I started receiving revelation. And I was hoping it was gonna be The church is true. Like you hear me now? Now you can hear me. The church is true. But I didn't hear that. I just got revelation line upon line. It was what I needed to hear in that moment, and I feel like it was [00:26:00] what Heavenly Father knew I was ready to hear, and I just took what I heard and I, I applied that to my life.

I took that revelation and I, I put in the work for whatever I was receiving, and slowly over time, I just was hearing him more and more. But it required shutting it all down, turning, turning off the noise, and, and not listening to what anybody had to say except God.

I love that so much. I think there's a couple of, a couple of things came to mind. One was President Nelson's, uh, teachings about identity and how important that is. So like, when. You when everything else was falling apart. You had those two things. And knowing who you are and whose you are, made all the difference.

And I think that that is profound. I think that's the reason that President Nelson has, has, uh, emphasized that so much. But when you're talking about distraction, and I, I love the analogy that you made at the beginning of our conversation about walking with a friend and then not realizing that you've been distracted, but it reminded me of, um, my father-in-law.

In in a conference talk, elder Pearson said, distraction eliminates the very focus. The eye of faith requires discouragement and distraction are two of Satan's most effective tools, but they're also bad habits. Distraction leads to a lack of diligence, a reduced commitment to remain true and faithful and to carry on through despite hardship and disappointment.

And I think that when you took all of those distractions away, you regained this diligence that I think is so important in [00:28:00] our discipleship. And it's also like the easiest thing to lose quickly is that like focused, diligent discipleship. I wondered David, I know Catie at one point you mentioned that you didn't realize that this was like a affecting David, but then one day David said that he had been fasting for you.

Every week. Is that right? Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, I, I don't, I, yeah, it was probably every week. It was close to every week. It was for a, I don't know for how long I did that for, but yeah, that would've been top of mind for any fast. I mean, that was the most, it was the most important thing. I mean, I thought about a lot about our family and what that would, would mean.

Like I didn't have any doubts that about our marriage or anything like that. I had no zero doubts about our relationship. Um, but certainly those things come into mind of like, how are you gonna work through this? Like, what are the, like, what are the things gonna be like, are we gonna still support going on a mission?

Are we still gonna support? Like, what does that look like? Right? These are questions I think are very natural to have if you think something potentially could go, you know, another direction. And so, yeah, I did all I could do, which there wasn't, like I said, it wasn't gonna be convincing, it wasn't gonna be trying to talker into it.

It was gonna be what do I know to do? And so then it, you know, for me it turned into a. Well, all I can do, all I can control, if you want to use that word mm-hmm. Yeah. Is my own actions and how I approach it, which, uh, certainly can be what, what I can do from a fasting and prayer and, and, you know, doing anything I can to be supportive and be there and be a landing place, you know, for, for conversation.

But yeah, I mean, I, I guess it kind of goes back when things get really difficult and you kind of go back to the fundamentals a lot of times. I mean, that could be an analogy for anything in life, whether it's sports or business or otherwise, but certainly in the gospel that's true. You know, when things get difficult, what are the fundamentals is you can sort of peel everything away that, you know, the tried and true.

[00:30:00] And, you know, I just have, have a firm, you know, testimony of, of prayer and fasting. I, I know it works. And so that's all I could do, you know, and that, that's what I, what I leaned into as hard as I could, you know, and that was, that was, once again, it was just all I could do. Knowing that. I wasn't gonna be able to control the outcome, but I certainly can control how I approached it.

We just recently heard a guy speak that talked about inputs and outputs and how we can't control the outputs, but we can control the inputs. Mm-hmm. And we've talked about that a lot in our house, and I think that that is, it's so important, that idea of what can I control? What do I have the ability to, to decide?

So I'm curious. One more question for you, David, is I feel like I have observed a couple of times you being one of them, but another friend of mine as well, where the spouse, it was just like, I'm not worried. I'm not worried about you. You figure out your faith, but just so you. Like it, it's not gonna affect my faith.

Mm-hmm. And I think that that's an important thing. So what do you think it was about your faith, David, that made it so that when Catie was having this, this experience, it wasn't gonna affect your faith or your testimony? You know, I think, I think it probably goes back to a, a foundation that I had that probably started on my mission.

I, I kind of mentioned at the beginning of where, where, like how I grew up in the church, although maybe didn't pay attention as much as I probably should have, but it ultimately landed on the mission and built a foundation and a testimony that, that has carried me through life. And I, and I think that's where, where I see, you know, the, how would I put this?

I. I wasn't going to let it impact me because I, I, I kept up [00:32:00] with that. Right. I mean, that's just like exercising or anything else too. Like if you, if you don't keep up with it, it's easy to sort of get away. It's by degrees, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. Um, but I was, I had too many experiences that I've witnessed in my life and, you know, certainly on my mission, but even afterwards of just the Lord's hand and, and everything that I've done where I, it was, it, it would be impossible for me to deny that.

And so, although difficult and challenging to see someone that, and the, the person you love the most, go through something that is, is challenging their faith, it it, you know, I had to, I felt like I had to, I say dig, dig in's probably not the right word. That's not really the right way to describe it. But in some ways it's like, go back to what I know to believe to be true, what I know to be true.

And, and that's, that's what I leaned on the most. And so I, it wasn't gonna affect me because, or in terms of my testimony and what I believed, because I believed that, you know, I didn't believe that because Kate believed that. And I didn't believe that because my parents believed that, you know, I had to receive that witness myself, you know, and go through, although different experience, but go through a moment of times where you, you have to try it out.

And as you try it out, you, you know, I never had one major experience, but I had a lot of small experiences throughout my life that is just undeniable. And so it would be, it would almost be crazy to, to say, okay, even though you don't believe now, all of a sudden, I'm not gonna believe. Right? I can see how easily that could happen though, right?

I mean, it could happen really easily if I wasn't keeping up right? If I wasn't doing the things that I knew to be true and that were gonna sort of sharpen my saw over time. Like it would be really easy. So when I say crazy, I don't mean that in a negative way. I just think from what I've experienced and the, the routines I'll say that I had, I had built and the habits that I had built over time, [00:34:00] I wasn't in a position then to, to then go and just walk the other way.

And I'm thankful for that because if I, if I wouldn't have been keeping up, I think it would've been easy for me to be like, well, I'm just gonna lean into, okay, I'm gonna follow her lead here. Right. And whatever happens, happens, our marriage is most important. Our kids, all that, the way we, you know, we need, we need to be in sync.

Like all these things come to mind. But, but where I was is just that that wasn't gonna ha like, I just couldn't, couldn't look the other direction and, and go a different direction, I guess is the way to say it. And I think one of the reasons David has been able to, was able to show up for me the way that he did because I feel like, like he said, not perfectly always right, but a pretty dang good job the majority of the time.

And I think the reason he was able to do that is because he did double down on his faith and his beliefs and the things, those fundamental things. And I think that is what allowed him to, to show up for me in the way that was perfect for me. And you know, he was a really good example and. Relying on those fundamental truths and faith, and I think that made, I know it made a huge difference in, in what I went through.

You know, it's interesting. I don't want it to sound like, oh, like what I just said there. It'd be like, oh, like look at, I did this and I did that. I hope that, like, I definitely don't want it to come across that way, but I do think the habits that you create are super important. I remember my mission president telling me, you know, as I was leaving, he is like, never let a day go by where you just don't read at least one verse of the scriptures.

Just, just a verse. You're gonna have busy days, you're gonna have days you're exhausted. Just at least stay in touch. It's like this idea of like staying in touch, staying in contact, right? Just don't ever let too much time go by where you [00:36:00] don't do the things that you know are gonna just keep you. You know, keep the spirit in your life.

And I think that's, you know, that's where prayer comes into and just the habit, like you create these habits that I didn't realize how much of an effect they had until your faith is tried. Then you start realizing how important those things are and how quickly they could go the other direction if, if you don't stay, sort of stay in touch, you know?

Right. Well, I, I just had to give a talk last weekend about spiritual preparation and I, the theme was around the 10 versions and I realized that I've always had this aversion to the story of the 10 versions because I'm like. I, I am a terrible packer. I guaranteed I would forget the oil for my lamp and this would just be a disaster.

But as I was preparing the talk, I started to think about how I think we get caught up on the idea of the oil and we don't focus on the idea of having a relationship with Christ and that it's not like the savior is trying to shut the door on us. Like Elder Bednar said, it's not, I know you not, it's, you know, me not, um, the savior is like, you know, you have to know me to, to seek me and want to be here in the first place.

And so I think that it's so interesting that idea of spiritual preparation and wanting to make sure that we are ready. I think it's less about do we have the oil in our lamp and more about, I. The Lord wanting us to be able to weather storms and weather that dark night of the soul that, that it's sometimes referred to.

So I think that, I think that's such a great point. I wonder, Catie, when do you feel like, was it when you eliminated those distractions that you started to feel like things turned a corner or were there other points at which you, you felt like, okay, I actually [00:38:00] think I wanna lean into my faith rather than away from it?

Yeah. It really was a, so many things like that conversation with my mom where she, she gave me that confidence then cutting out the distractions. And it was, it's interesting you said lean in, because I remember when I started allowing myself to lean into the parts of the gospel that I loved, I. Giving myself permission to do that.

I remember I had encouraged David to, you know, one, one time, um, I noticed that David was having a, a hard time, and I think this is, at least this was true for me. I think the person who, who is going through this, not intentionally, but it really becomes all about you. What do I think? What do I believe? How are we gonna support me?

What should I be doing? How am I gonna move forward? And I think I got really caught up in that. And there was one particular moment when I locked eyes with David and I realized, I knew that, you know, his, his needs, his wants, they matter too and his thoughts. And I just remember thinking, I. He, he should, he should be able to open up and talk about this with someone.

I don't think you had it at that point. I don't know if it was just, he's a very, you're a pretty private guy, but also very loyal. But I encouraged him. I said, you should reach out to somebody that you trust. And he reached out to his brother and I don't, I wasn't privy to those conversations. I'm not sure what they talked about.

I'm sure I was definitely big part of that topic, but, um, you and Duke basketball. Duke, that's right.

But I remember, [00:40:00] uh, maybe a few months after that we were. We were at a family reunion and one night we were on the back porch. It was just David and I and and his brother and um, my sister-in-law. And we were just having a conversation and David got a blessing from his brother. And I remember wanting one, even though I didn't even know that the priesthood was real or I didn't know, you know, if Joseph Smith was a prophet.

But I wanted a blessing and I allowed myself to lean into that even though it didn't make sense if you had heard the conversations that we were having behind closed doors. But I allowed myself to get that blessing. But I continued to allow myself, give myself permission to lean into the parts of the gospel that I loved.

Because I think sometimes we think, well, I don't even know if this part's true or that's not so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go to the temple, or, you know, I'm not gonna partake the sacrament or I'm not gonna get a blessing. And I remember later as I've come out of this, David saying, I would, what, what would you, what were you thinking?

Yeah, I don't know. You just sort of get, you're like, I may, you know, I was confused. Maybe this way put, he would be so confused. We would be having these conversations and then the next night you'd be like. Can you give me a blessing? But I, I'm getting, I'm getting some mixed messages here. That's right.

Yeah. Just a little bit, some mixed messages. Just a little bit. But that's one thing I would, I'd wanna say to anybody listening, you can lean in to parts of the gospel that you love, even though you're, you're doubting or you're questioning, or you're not sure if it feels good and you want to participate in some of these things, do it the same way.

If, if someone's like, I [00:42:00] don't know if God's real, I would never say to that person if they're like, well, maybe I'll pray. I wouldn't say, well, now don't pray because you don't think he's real. Like, you shouldn't do that. Right? And so, yeah, that's just one thing I, I, I felt like really helped me turn the corners.

Me giving myself permission to lean into those parts of the, the parts of the gospel that I loved, even if I was questioning them. And also when I, I was able to realize this is not an, an emergency. I think sometimes it feels like I have to know it. It really does feel that way. Gotta now I have to know right now I've gotta figure this out.

I've gotta make a decision like this has to happen because I've gotta, I've gotta move on with my life. I gotta live my life one way or another. You know, I have to know, I've gotta make a decision. And God does not rush. He does not rush us. He's patient, he's calm, he's peaceful. And anytime that I remembered that, I just, I would drop my shoulders and I'd go, it's okay.

It's not an emergency. I don't have to know today. And, and that, that helped. So it was lots of little things, but recognizing them and leaning into them, I think was what really helped get me to back on the path that I, I wanted to be on. Correct me if I'm wrong, Catie, but one thing I remember you saying about that blessing that you received is that it talked about listening to the words of the sacrament prayers and you were like, as a mom of five kids, what mom actually has a chance to listen to the sacrament prayers?

I don't even get anything out of church these days. But I think that making you, you said like after that, that you started thinking about the sacrament prayers on like [00:44:00] Saturday night, and I think little things like that, recognizing where you can do something, I, I just have always, I've always remembered you saying that and, and that.

You know, choosing to do the thing that the blessing was counseling you to do, I think is an act of faith. And I admire that. Yeah, I, I do remember that and I think, you know, having an open heart and open mind and getting creative when you receive revelation, because it would have been easy to say, okay, like, yeah, church is hard.

I still have little kids. This is difficult, but what can I do to follow this council? How can I get creative? And yeah, that was one of the things that I did and it really, it made a difference in, in my Sabbath for sure and in my life. Okay. So it doesn't seem to me, at least as a. Bystander that it's been as if your faith has been all restored at once, but there have been kind of some pivotal things.

I think that it seems like there have been some breakthroughs where you feel your faith building back up. Um, can you share a little bit about what the biggest things there have been? So, there were many, many things, but the most recent was I, um, read the book of Mormon and I, Morgan, you know this, I've been talking to you about this for years.

I've never liked reading the scriptures. I've done it out of obedience. Of course there's scriptures like, you know, that are powerful and meaningful, but sitting down and reading my scriptures has never, I. [00:46:00] Ever been anything that I've enjoyed. I've done it strictly out of obedience and I've, I've always wanted to have that experience.

I grew up with waking up to my mom, reading her scriptures and testifying of the power of them and how they're written for our day and how much she loved them. And, and I witnessed that and I, and I always wanted to have an experience like that, but I never have. But a friend recently invited me to do a Book of Mormon Challenge with her and she said, you know, I'm gonna read the book of Mormon and the month of March and I would love for you to join.

She asked me and, and one other friend. And this friend of mine is amazing and she just, like everybody, she has her own challenges and tough things that she's going through. And, you know, I. I have been someone who she's opened up to about some of these challenges and, and different things. So to see her double down on her faith during such a hard time was super inspiring to me.

And so I, I did it one because I thought, all right, this'll be, this'll be a good little challenge. I, I think I'm ready for this. But also because I was inspired by her and I wanted to be supportive of her. And I think there is power and, and friendship and doing things together. And so I started, I did ask, I was like, can I start now instead of waiting till March?

Because 17 pages a day feels a little daunting. And she agreed. So I started in the middle of February, but I, I got up every morning and I. I started reading my scriptures and I had a very powerful [00:48:00] experience that I had never had before. I found myself not rushing through. There would be so many times when I'd be like, okay, how many?

Okay, 1, 2, 3, 4. Okay, four more, four more verses. How many? I was totally that girl, but I remember getting lost in them and words that I needed to hear and and answers to my prayers and revelation that I received on how to help my kids and my marriage. And it just was so powerful and I, I gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

I knew that these words were true and that when we read them, when we take the time and we put in the effort. With humility. That was, I think that was key for me. I really went into it with a humble heart, an open heart, ready to let them change me, and they did. And I remember saying, oh my goodness, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I love the Book of Mormon.

I love the Book of Mormon. And, um, I actually stood up and bore my testimony about it in sacrament meeting, which was really exciting for me because all my life, when I've gotten, gotten up and have shared certain things that I believed in, um, I didn't really talk about the Book of Mormon. And it felt so good to be able to stand up there and declare that this is the word of God and that the teachings are real and that Jesus Christ is real and he is everything that the scriptures say.

I had the thought, Catie, while you were talking. I remember when Tensley, so Catie and David's oldish daughter, [00:50:00] when she was just like, she would've been like two years old. I came to visit you guys and you were reading the Book of Mormon with her. And in all the years since I've thought I wanna be like Catie and David and read the scriptures no matter how old my kids are.

And I had the thought like it's, it's interesting that you did that. So committed and diligently not having a love for the Book of Mormon, but like you said, like out of obedience. But then I think that there is so much power, even when we do things just out of obedience that heavenly father sees that.

And then in those times when you. Felt like your faith was faltering or whatever, he wasn't gonna let you go because you've tried so hard. And I think that there's a lot of, there's a big lesson to be learned in that that same daughter is almost 17 years old. And I had a conversation with her the other night about the Book of Mormon and David has the kids doing their own little challenge right now.

And she was feeling a little behind, right? She's, she's busy, she's getting up for seminary, she's got school, she's got sports after school, lots of different things. And she was feeling a little down. And I told her, I said, you know, I feel like if the savior was to walk in here right now, he would just put his arms around you and he would not want you to be stressed about reading your scriptures.

And I think he would want you to just. You know, to start wherever you are. And I shared with her that several years ago when I was going through all of this, this was another little thing that turned the corner for me. I didn't have my scriptures out anymore. I, I didn't know where they were, I wasn't reading them.

[00:52:00] And I had wanted to change my relationship with the scriptures and I hadn't, I hadn't opened them, but I did put them on my side table and that was where I felt like I could start. And so I would just look at 'em every day. It was just right next, right on my nightstand, the Book of Mormon. And I just walked by it, I'd pass by it.

Um, and then I started just kind of putting my hand on it. And I remember one time, it was before we were, I don't know, we were gonna go somewhere or something, and everyone was calling me down and I said, I'll just be down there in a second. And I went over to the Book of Mormon and I picked it up. And I said, I don't know if this is book is true or not, but I do know someone went through a lot to get it here and I gave it a hug and I had a very powerful spiritual experience and I hadn't even opened the scriptures.

And so I told Tinsley, and I wanna say to anybody listening, you don't have to read the book A Mormon in a month and a half I or a month or I, I certainly don't think I was up for that challenge and would have done that, you know, four years ago or, or so. But start with the desire to change your relationship with them, even if that looks just like putting them on your side table and not even opening them or giving them a little hug.

It, I don't think it matters how much you read. I think it matters more about the desire of your heart, and I've seen how when I allow myself to let that be enough, just the desire that powerful, powerful things happen. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay. Before we get to our last question, I just wanted to ask the two of you, if [00:54:00] you have any other, and I feel like you've done a great job sharing this throughout, so if not, totally fine.

But if there are any other things that you would say to someone, either someone going through this themselves or David for a spouse that is, is going through something similar to what Catie to the two of you experienced? I don't, I don't know. I, I mean, it might have, it might have come out a little bit earlier, but, and maybe in a different way of just from being the spouse in this case.

Learning to be the best listener and safe place that you possibly can be. Knowing that I didn't think anything, it doesn't mean that there was nothing I could say. I mean, certainly we had conversations and we talked a lot about it, and I was able to express that the beliefs that I have. So I don't want that to be missed.

But it wasn't about that. It was more about having a little patience, creating some space to be able to, to let the spirit operate. And I think that's, that was an important part of this. You know, it wasn't easy. It certainly wasn't easy. I don't wanna, I don't want to make it sound like it was an easy thing 'cause it wasn't, I know it wasn't easy for her either.

And that's, that's the other thing. I mean, she was the one really, you know, challenged in her beliefs and the things that she was, was thinking and feeling and believing. But, you know, but certainly there's effects, right? And so then you, you want to. Every urge would tell you like, I just want to, you know, convince her or tell her.

And, you know, and maybe, and sometimes like, you know, wake her up or whatever it may be, whatever you may be thinking. But, but I knew deep down, I knew, and, and I still believe that to this day, I just, that wasn't gonna be the, the, the way to go. That wasn't gonna be what was gonna be long lasting, I guess I should say.

It took a simple desire, a desire for her to know what was true, how to get to that truth, and that was gonna be what was gonna lead her on the right path. And I [00:56:00] had to trust that. And it wasn't quick either. Like this wasn't, I mean, I don't know how long, when Catie said, this will be an hour four years ago.

You know what I mean? This is years. I was like four years ago. Yeah. It was a long time. It was a long time. You know, so it was, I mean, there were certainly moments where it was a lot harder and there wasn't, you didn't feel like there was a lot of progress. Um, but then there was, then, there were, then there were, there were moments that that had.

You started to see things and you started, she started to say things and there was some encouragement there, and you're like, okay, like I think this is moving in the right direction. But even then, you know, sort of resisting the urge to be like, all right, we're back. You know, are you back? You know, like what, right.

There wasn't that either. It was just little by little, you know? I continued to just try to do what I could do and pray and fast and, and be there for her. And that was it, you know? And that was all I could do is just be a better listener than talker. And, and I think that was an, IM important part of this.

And just trusting, trusting that the spirit would do its job, you know, and, and be able to, obviously she had to do her part certainly too, but that, that the spirit would be able to be really the one to, to help her feel and, and know very wise. Catie, I think for me, oh man, I would, one, I'd wanna hug somebody.

I'd wanna hug them, and I would wanna say. I know that this is hard and I know that this is scary and worrisome, and I know that it's heavy on your heart and on your mind, but you got this. You got this, and God is gonna help you keep God in this, and you're gonna land on your feet. You're gonna land on your feet.

This isn't an emergency. Drop your shoulders. Exhale. Keep God in this. First and [00:58:00] foremost, cut out the distractions. Give it, give it. Give it a week. Try that. Try 11 days apparently for me. Cut out the distractions and find out what God thinks and what God wants you to know, not what this person says, or your Sunday school teacher or this, this.

Instagram influencer. What does God think? What does he want you to know? Keep him in it. And you got this. You totally got this preach. That was so good. Thank you. Okay, last question for both of you. What does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? You wanna go first? Do you wanna, we, we have no idea what our answer's gonna be.

You know, it's, it's hard to describe, but I think the best way maybe is, is no plan B. There is no other plan. There's no other way. There is no other path to choose. Like this is it. When you're all in, there is no other option. There's not a backup plan. You know, and, and I think that's, that goes in, obviously in times where things are going smoothly, then it's a little bit easier.

And then there's also times that are gonna be challenging, but there still isn't a plan B or a backup option. And I think that's where. When I think of being all in, you're committed, you're fully committed. And in a term that's come to mind, and I'm sure maybe it's been said by others, is just sort of no matter what, no matter what, whatever that means.

And that could mean a lot of different things. And that doesn't always mean that it's gonna be something always difficult. 'cause it certainly is not always gonna be difficult. But, but it definitely means in those times where it's a little bit more challenging, it's still no matter what you're committed, you're in and you're gonna, you're gonna believe and press forward no matter what that looks like.

And, and no matter what, what comes your way. So I think that's, that's how I would describe it. You know, I've listened to this podcast for a long time [01:00:00] and so I think anybody who has has asked themselves, how would they answer this? And I think over the years I would've said different things at different times.

And I think that's actually awesome for me right now. To be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ means to seek Christ in all things no matter where I'm at on the path. I don't think it matters where anybody is. I think it just matters who you're walking with. And if you decide to walk with Christ, you're gonna, you're gonna end up in the right place and you're gonna have a me much better journey.

So seeking Christ in all, in all things is what it means to me to be all in. Thank you both so much. I just, I appreciate you. You're, you're, you both have been such good examples to me. And even throughout, like watching this experience, it has been inspiring to me and has made me wanna be better. So thank you both from the bottom of my heart.

Thanks her. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us. We are so grateful to Catie and David Borland for joining us on today's episode. Big thanks as always to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode. And thank you so much for listening. We'll look forward to being with you again next week.