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[00:00:00] If you've listened to All In for a while, you've probably noticed by now that this podcast tends to be a representation of both what I see people around me experiencing, but also what I myself am going through. I love to share thoughts that help me in hopes that if it helped me, it might help. Someone else.

So recently when I listened to a podcast about motherhood, that shifted my paradigm completely. I had to find a way to share on her podcast. Down the well. Elle Rowley interviewed a woman named Dr. Lisa Marciano and Dr. Marciano said this. If we're lucky, life is going to use us up. That's kind of the point.

You know, that we should spend ourselves on something larger than self. Motherhood is not the only thing that you could spend yourself on, but it's a pretty good thing to spend yourself on end. Quote, the quote stopped me in my tracks and. So on today's episode, I talk with Elle Rowley about why Dr. Marciano's message resonated so deeply with her and why she is now on a mission to reclaim motherhood as a powerful life-giving force, not only to the children we bear, but to the women we become in the process. Elle Rowley is a writer and founder of the award-winning baby carrier company, soy Baby, a multimillion dollar company that she and her husband recently.

Sold their majority stake in the couple. Now invest in family owned businesses like the one they started. She's the mother of four children ranging in ages from eight to 16, and most recently she hosts a podcast called Down The Well.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson and I am so honored to have l Rowley do, do you say it Rowley l Yep. Like rolly polly. Yep. Per perfect. Okay. I wanted to make sure I got that right. Um, so grateful to have you, you with us today.

[00:02:00] Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm a big fan of the podcast and you, and just happy to be here. You are so sweet. I am a big fan of your work and I have to tell you those soly baby pajamas, like I know that you're known for the wrap. The pajamas are like, they are what dreams are made of my girls.

If I had a dollar for every time they've worn those pajamas and Emma wore them, I kid you not from like five months until like two weeks ago, and she's almost two years old. Oh, she wants to stay pretty small or stretch. She is, she's pretty, she's pretty petite, but they do stretch well, and now as soon as I could put Jane in them, she's wearing them.

So just know we are, we are living in your pajamas. That makes me so happy. Uh, they are kind of, they are buttery soft as we like to say. They're so great. Okay, so I am so excited because I have been binging your podcast and I have learned so much and I think it's particularly interesting to me as a new mom that's trying to find my way in the momming world, but I, I wanted to.

Start by asking you, I feel like on the surface you seem to be a little bit of an unlikely candidate to host a podcast that is seeking to reclaim and recast motherhood in a positive light. But you read a book. From what I understand, that was transformative for you in the way that you view motherhood, and that was kind of the motivation for starting this podcast.

So I wondered, could you tell me a little bit about where you were in life when you read this book and why it made such an impact on you? I. Yeah, I, I would say that Lisa Marciano's book that you're talking about is called, um, motherhood Finding and Facing Yourself, and she's a, a union analyst that I, yeah, I love [00:04:00] all of her work, but, but this book in particular.

It just gave words to something that I had already felt for a very long time. I mean, really since becoming a mother, motherhood for me unlocked a lot of creative potential and confidence. I mean, through through hard, you know, pain and discomfort that I didn't have before becoming a mom, and it was easy to feel.

I guess misunderstood by people who saw the professional success I was having as the, the real treasure and motherhood kind of as the accessory to the professional success in Soly Baby when really the, the reverse was true. I, I never would've started Soly Baby had I not become a mom first and not. Not because Soly baby's about motherhood, but again, because of that creative potential and confidence that it unlocked.

And Lisa's book really gave the language to describe what was happening through, through motherhood, the transformation that had taken place. And so Soly Baby was a part of this mother's hero's journey that I was on, and I think it always kind of bothered me that. People saw Soly Baby as the treasure rather than, than motherhood and Soly baby supporting that.

I mean, it also, you know, supported my personal development. Motherhood is a part of that personal development, so, mm-hmm. I don't know. I think that that her book again, it just gave the language. To what I was experiencing, which is motherhood helps you to face and find yourself if you approach it in a way that, that really can unlock those things.

And I, I just feel so deeply as I see so many, so many women, um, turn and, and men turn away from I. Parenting from mothering and, and fathering that, that, in that we're, we're losing, you know, outside of our, like the theological, you know, spiritual implications of that. Um, we're [00:06:00] losing so much potential for, for personal growth and, and becoming kind of, uh, yeah.

Unlocking all this hidden potential. Well, I, I love what you said about. You, it bothered you that people were viewing Soly baby as the treasure. I think that sometimes it's so easy when people are applauding you for a particular thing to be like, oh, well that's where my value lies. And I think for me, my experience has been a little bit the reverse because I was working before I had kids, and so I think.

People knew how badly I wanted to be a mom, you know? But for me, it's been like making sure that now that I'm having the opportunity to be a mom, that I'm appreciating it. Mm-hmm. Rather than looking back and thinking, oh, well, when I was doing this, everybody was. Cheering me on and, and now I sit in an apartment being like bossed around by a 2-year-old, you know, who's very cute.

She is a very, very adorable, but she tells me what to do all the time. And so I, I wanted to, to dig into this a little bit more, and you actually called your. Your podcast down the well because of this idea that's that's expressed in Dr. Marciano's book and you summed up the ideas and the inspiration for this name.

In a recent DT news article, you said you get. Sent down the well over and over, and then it's dark and you're in an unknown land and you have to find your way. And it's all about the approach using humility and open-heartedness and kindness and curiosity. So I wondered, l what do you think has helped you approach this hero's journey with humility and open-heartedness and kindness and curiosity?

Instead of [00:08:00] some of the the alternative ways that we could approach a hero's journey that looks a little bit different than maybe what we were anticipating. Well, I mean, I think that often the most poignant, uh, life lessons come from doing it wrong, and I definitely have learned a lot by doing the opposite of approaching those down the well moments of when life really, really throws you down.

One, which, which. Motherhood does, does, you know, like you said all, all the time, and, and by approaching it at times with, uh, you know, entitle entitlement or being prideful or thinking, just thinking it shouldn't be so hard and, and feeling like kind of victimizing myself. I have seen the fruits of that approach.

And it is, uh, I don't think it's an overstatement to say those are, are curses of resentment and bitterness and, you know, anxiety and sadness and so many things, so many bad fruits, I guess you could say. And then the alternative is, I. What the, those qualities that you just talked about. Humility, open-heartedness, kindness, curiosity, and, and I've also felt the transformation, especially in those younger years because of, of motherhood where you are right now.

Because it's just so overwhelming for most of us, like physically and, and in every way. And it requires so much humility that I think it does naturally breed more curiosity. And our babies just open our hearts up. And I, I think that that's a really amazing combination to make us more teachable, but it's easy as motherhood goes along to lose that kind of, to lose those qualities.

And now we're in the, like the endurance game, motherhood as you go along. And the marathon. Yes. Marathon. And it is so, so much. Easier to lose those qualities. And then in that we lose this [00:10:00] potential for continual transformation. So it starts to feel like a lot of stagnation. And then we go back to, to those other qualities.

So I, I, I'm hoping through, through my message that, that it helps mothers at every phase, but, but especially in that phase where you're like, man, I mean those early years of. This is just so hard here. And, and then the, the later ones of this, this can feel so boring. This can feel like I'm not growing still.

And, and, but I, I think that when we put, when we put those qualities at the forefront and our approach, it just changes everything and opens up so much more potential for, for transformation even when we don't. We don't see it. My, my mom is such a good example of this. She was a single mother to, to seven kids.

I'm the youngest and has had some really difficult trials over the years, but I would say that one of her crowning qualities is just her humility and open-heartedness. And so she's, she never has let those experiences harden her. And she stayed, she stayed soft in a way that. It's easy to look at. It's like, uh, when you hear the word soft, to think of that as a weakness.

Like a negative. Yeah. Right. But I think it's just the most beautiful thing. It's, it's not a weakness. It takes so much strength to stay vulnerable and to stay open. And I, I just have been so grateful to see that in her example over the years of staying, staying humble, staying open, and to see how that's helped her to continue to grow, to grow as a person.

I love that you said that. I actually had a really unique experience, um, on my mission. I have always, my mom is a, is a person that always has had that, what you said, softness. She's very tender and on my mission, I, I [00:12:00] started to read talks about meekness and I realized that what I had always viewed as.

Softness, I think was actually meekness in my mom. And that she was such an example of that Christ-like quality. And I wanted to have that softness, you know? Mm-hmm. And I got home from my mission and I was crying all the time. And I think, you know, obviously like it's, you get home from a mission and there's a lot of emotions and you don't really know what to do with yourself.

But I one day was praying and I said, heavenly father, like I. Keep crying and that's not me. Like I don't know what's going on. And I had this very distinct thought. You prayed throughout your mission to be more like your mom, and I'm giving you, I. That now. And it's beautiful. I, so I think that there is, not that my mom like cries all the time, let me be clear about that.

But I think that she has always had this softness. Um, and I love that you highlighted that quality in your mom. I have a question for you, a follow up. As a young mom, you mentioned like feeling victimized and I don't feel like, I feel that because I think I do recognize like. I prayed for the opportunity to be a mom for so long and it took a long time for that to happen for me.

But the thing that I feel like I battle the most is guilt of not being better at it. So instead of like the, this shouldn't be so hard, my thought is I'm terrible at this. I'm curious how you feel like you've combated feelings of like inadequacy as a mom, as somebody that's like a step ahead of me. Oh man.

I mean, I think that that's it. I think it still is humility. We have to be willing to be, to be bad at it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, that, yeah, we're, we're [00:14:00] the, the humility to say, I'm, I'm not, I'm not the mom that I dreamt of, and, and. I will reach out for help. I'm gonna stay open-hearted. I'm gonna stay curious, and that's gonna help me to find, you know, new resources and new ideas.

Like the humility to be bad at something is, is not something that we always associate with humility, but I think it's one of its, uh, best applications is to say, I, I, I'm willing to. I'm willing to just stay, stay bad at this as long as I need to. And of course you're not. That's the reality of it. Um, and I, I think that then, you know, that it, it takes seeing things in, uh, the, the bigger picture of, of, uh.

Of just knowing that, that it's a long, it's a long hero's journey, and we're not ever, we're not, that's not, the purpose is not to nail. I love that. Lisa Marchiano talks so much about how it really, the, one of the biggest treasures that comes from, from falling down the well and emerging again, that death and rebirth over and over is, is to know ourselves better.

It's not perfection, it's just not. It's, I think that it's continue as we continue on that we're gonna find more wholeness, um, but not perfection. And I, I think it's just, I mean, the adversary works so hard to, to discourage us. And to, to, to make us think that we're doing not a good job. And I think good friends really come in handy there too, just to know you're all down the well together at different times.

It's just so normal. Uh, I don't know if that's comforting at all, but Yeah. No, it is. It is. And I think you're right that I, I think. I've always struggled doing things that I feel like I'm not good [00:16:00] at. And so, and you're right about the adversary. My husband's always like, and where did that thought come from?

Who wants you to feel that way? So also I think having, having a husband who can call it out is also, oh yeah. I wonder, l how have you seen women, even within the church, as we're talking about kind of trying to reclaim this idea of motherhood as a hero's journey versus something that is crushing women or something to be survived.

How have you seen women even within the church, detract from or seek to diminish the role of a mother? I mean, I don't think that most women seek to diminish it, but I think in an effort to justify our choices just as human nature to, we can unintentionally diminish the choices of others while we're trying to justify our own.

And I mean, the reverse can definitely be true as well. Right. And I. I always wanna be mindful of that, but looking at, I, I'm obsessed with this triple God, uh, triple goddess archetype of the maiden mother and matriarch or crone. Um, and you can find that in just about every tradition, um, including ours, but it can.

It can shed some light maybe on what's, what's happened to this role of motherhood? From my perspective, I, I think that we've become obsessed as a society with the, with the maiden. This archetype of the single, beautiful young woman full of potential unlimited possibilities and adventure. And this phase of the Maiden was a very short lived phase for much of history.

And I mean, part of this is just due to shorter lifespans and now we have. Longer lifespans, but women were pressured to enter, you know, this mother archetype or phase often before they were ready. And I think that that maybe led to a, maybe to a bigger pendulum swing than has been helpful. And now we idolize the maiden.

I mean, just culturally, it's just everywhere. It's. The [00:18:00] highest ideal that represents female empowerment and choice and freedom. And we can reject the mother in that as a threat to the maiden, like taking our, our freedom and our empowerment. But the maiden. Is just the first part of that path, and it very naturally leads down to the path of the mother eventually.

We need to make choices. We need to commit to something, we need to make sacrifices. And the mother is really this archetype of, of nurturing creation. That can look a lot of different ways, but we know that having children in our theology, that having children is a very natural and powerful embodiment of this, of, of nurturing creation, and.

Multiplying and replenishing the earth. And I, I believe that this is our, as much for our own development as it is for God or mankind. But what's, I think what's difficult about Ideals is that like my husband uses this analogy that like the North Star is a guide, but we're never gonna reach the North Star.

Right? Like sailors, you may use that, but they're not. They're not going to, they're not gonna get to the North Star. They're just using it to help them get where they need to go. And there it's meant to be a guide and not a judge. And many women will not marry or have children for many different reasons, and none of us will ever fully be the mothers that we desire to be.

That's just the reality of it. But because of the. The pain that can come with that realization. I think it's really easy to get rid of the ideal altogether. And, and I think that we have, we have unintentionally, and some people may be intentionally done that, uh, rather than just accepting our realities with humility and faith that we're, we may, you know, we may not live out this archetype exactly how we imagined that to be this mother archetype.

But it's still, it's [00:20:00] still an ideal worth keeping if that. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. I think, yeah, I think that it's, it's hard because everybody, I always say that life, the hardest things in life are the things that you don't expect. And I think that's why letting go of an idealized expectation is hard because we all have this.

Thing that we've expected, the way that we expected we would be. And then there's adjusting to that reality of, oh, well maybe I won't be that. But I always say like, that's, those are the things that help us become the most. So if you didn't for, for me, it was always like I didn't expect to be single into my early thirties and.

That's the thing that was the hardest, but it's also the thing that I wouldn't trade because it helped me become, and so likewise, I think if you are not living up to your expectation of how you would be in that role as a mother, that doesn't mean that you're failing. It just means that it's helping you.

Become what you're meant to become. Oh, it's, I mean, it's the hard, you're right, it's the hardest thing to keep faith in, but it is the only way to live. I mean, otherwise you're just arguing with reality all the time and, and always losing. Right. Well, I, I love how you highlight that idea of the. The matriarch as well.

And we'll get to that. 'cause you've, you've dug into that a little bit on your podcast, but before we get into that, I wanted to ask you, you have had, seemingly both, most people don't get the opportunity to excel in the business world and also be a mom. And you've done, you've done both. And so I wondered how would you compare.

The two, the role of a mother and the role of a [00:22:00] successful entrepreneur. It's so funny. Uh, I mean, that's such a, that's a really kind framing of it, but I mean, it's just, this is just my path. This is just life like, uh. I am a mother. I have been able to do, you know, some really have some really amazing opportunities as an entrepreneur that I'm super grateful, grateful for, but, but it doesn't feel like how you just described it.

What I feel proud of is that I have done my very, very best to stay aligned with. My values and principles in my relationship with God. And that's the part that I'm like, yeah, I've not done that perfectly. But I have really tried to along the way and it's been amazing to see what's unfolded because of that.

And so I hope that, you know, people who, women who look at my example or my life, that what they would take away from it is not like I. I mean, maybe if it is their, their path that they become, you know, that they, it's the reality for many, many women that were gonna work. It was the reality for my mom as a single mom, and it is the reality for many women.

And I'm not a single mom, and it's still, that was my path. That has been my path and I am so grateful for those opportunities. But I think that it's not like. I was able to check these boxes. It's that I was able to, to follow the inspiration where it led, and that has been the greatest adventure that has been my hero's journey, and I'm still on it.

Right. But I don't know if that even answered your question, but Well, no, I love, I love what you said about the, the thing that you're proud of is that you, you kept God. In your journey, and I think that [00:24:00] that's the important thing. I think sometimes we look at each other and it's like, oh, well she's doing this and I'm doing this, and you know, whether it's she's better or I'm better, who knows?

But I think the key is letting go of that judgment of ourselves and of one another and just trying to figure out do we have God in it? And is he the one directing our path? And if so, then every path is gonna look different. Anyway, and letting ourselves and others around us have our unique hero's journey as, as mothers, I think is important.

So I wondered if you could tell us a little bit about how Soy Baby came to be and ultimately you and your husband sold the company. What, what led to you taking kind of a step back there? So I started Soly Baby in 2011 when I was pregnant with my second baby, Solomon Soly, and, uh, made the first wrap for him and fell in love with this baby wearing experience.

Uh, my husband was still in school and I've been looking for a side hustle for, for a while. I knew that, I mean, the internet's just an amazing thing where you can, you can. Help to provide for the family and be at home and brings its own challenges. But I was so grateful that I was able, that I'm still able to do that, but I could just see the potential for, for these wraps and started an Etsy shop and then, you know, it's like so hard to, to sum up.

That decade of my life of growing the company and, and working with my husband and an amazing team, it was just like step by step and lots of, lots of faith and blessings along the way. But in 2021, yeah, we were approached by buyers and it had just, I, I knew a few years leading up to that, that [00:26:00] we're getting to a point of growth in the company that I would.

I'm, I was just to say not interested in sounds like, so I don't know, privileged or something, but it, but I was just, I, I knew that my, my time there was coming to an end that I'd offered what I needed to offer to s Soly baby and, uh, that it was time to, uh, creatively and for the next. Phase of growth for the company, for my kids, just the phase of my life that I was coming into, I just knew it was the right time to hand the reins over and so it, it.

Just the timing was right and I'm still, I'm still involved with the company. I'm still on the board. I still own, you know, Jared and I still own part of the company and I absolutely just love and I'm so proud of, of Soy Baby and how it's grown and the direction it continues to go in. But, but yeah, it was just that like, okay, time for another kind of like.

Death and rebirth, and you gotta let this part go. And it's easy to overly like, identify with different roles or phases in our lives. And I think it's such a healthy exercise to just say, okay, and now, and now we're gonna let that identity shed. That was never my identity in the first place. But, but yeah.

And make room for this next phase and that's, that's where I am now. When you were just saying that, it reminded me of, of a quote that I love from, or a story I guess by President Ire, where he talked about when he and his wife were sealed, that they were told how and Kathy live so that when the call comes, you can walk away easily and mm-hmm.

I think that idea of being able to walk away from something like not loving anything too much, that you can't walk away from it. Is so important and being, being able to follow the Lord such that nothing is, is [00:28:00] too is out of reach when he asks us to, to do something or to go in a different direction. And so I admire you for recognizing that your time with that was.

Needed to shift and, and being able to do that. I loved in your interview with Dr. Lisa Marciano, the discussion about losing your life, which reminded me of the scripture, whosoever shall lose his life, for my sake shall find it. How would you say that that has been true in your life and what have you just.

Discovered about yourself through motherhood. You mentioned that Soly baby never would've happened if you hadn't gained confidence from motherhood, but, but what would you say you've discovered about yourself through motherhood that you might not have discovered otherwise? I think we live in a time where.

We are obsessed with self-care. We glorify self-care and focus on self in a way that, you know, it's like a truth that then gets distorted in a way and, and it can really make us. Miserable can, I mean, I think it's Jordan Peterson who says something like, there's very little difference in focusing on yourself and suffering.

Like when we focus too much on ourselves, we can drive ourselves nuts. It's just not a happy way to live. And yet, like the major mantra of our times is to do just that and it's all self-love and obsess over your every need and. I'm all about self-care. Got an amazing facial yesterday. I go on walks with my husband every morning, like I am all in on taking care of ourselves.

But the overemphasis on that can definitely make us miserable. And I think that we're seeing that generally in our, in our culture with these, with this, you know, heightened, uh, heightened awareness and focus on self-care and also [00:30:00] like. Skyrocketing mental health crises, like just everything around mental health is so, so poor right now in our culture.

And, and, and I, I can't help but make that connection to this fear of sacrificing, this fear of, of having children. The fear of being like. Of giving too much of ourselves, of losing our lives so that we can find them. And I think it's such a lie that we are protecting, we, we end up protecting our sacrifices so much that then we've.

Have lives that are much less meaningful and connections that are much weaker than they could be. And, and then it's, it's no wonder that, you know, fertility rates are so low and so many young people are choosing just not to have kids, um, with that narrative so strong. But I, I think that we're not making the connection enough of how, how unhappy we are.

Um. Because of that, really the fruits of that and, and motherhood for me, through all of those sacrifices that are so hard, like you can't underscore it enough. It's, it, it tests every part of you. But on the other side of that is transformation. It is finding yourself. It is knowing yourself and, and that's, I mean, motherhood like that, that archetype is a, it's a Christ.

Archetype like it is, uh, service. It is losing yourself and, and finding it not in our kids. It's, it is in losing ourselves for his sake. It's what God has asked us to do, and that's how we're gonna find that meaning and, and really find true purpose and, and are, uh, the people that, that God wants us to be.

So, I mean, it's, it. I have discovered [00:32:00] everything about myself through through motherhood. I think that that absolutely, you answered that question. And I love what you said about motherhood being a kind of a type of Christ. I, I think, you know, who has given me the best example of Christ-like character in my life?

It would be my mom. And I think a lot of people feel that way and I recognize there are some people that don't and haven't had that experience. But I think in. In its purest form, motherhood gives us such a taste of what Christlike love feels like. I want to applaud something that was said about you l in this article in Deseret News, because I think that this is such a credit to you.

Someone that knows you was quoted as saying she's never embraced this boss babe culture of entrepreneurship, but she's still been very successful in the chase to have it all. Millennial women are exhausted. We feel like our worth depends on being successful in and outside the home, but we don't have anybody to tell us what that looks like except for men.

I think the fact that you have achieved the things that you've achieved without taking on that. Boss babe. Persona is so impressive and speaks kind of to that softness that you mentioned seeing in your mom. I think being able to, to do both, to be successful, but not to try to be. Just like a man, I think is a beautiful thing.

So I wondered, what does success as a woman look like for you, and how do you feel like you've avoided that mentality of, of being a boss babe, as this woman put it? I've told this story before, but I'll never forget going into this, this meeting with a manufacturer in [00:34:00] Los Angeles years ago, and I debated back and forth like, should I bring the baby?

Should I not bring the baby? She's still nursing and I really. Want to bring the baby, but, but will that be distracting? And, and I was meeting someone else there who had a very different kind of approach to, it was definitely more of like this masculine energy, which some of that is just personality too, and I'm not, you know, there's no judgment of that.

But, but that's not me. And, and I, it, it felt like one of those defining moments of like, okay, I need to like. Go in there and like hardball and like negotiate and do all these things to like, not bring the baby. And like, well, do I wanna be that person? Nothing is wrong with that person except that that person is not me.

And, and so I remember wrapping the baby on my chest and going in and. Accomplishing everything that I needed to accomplish in that meeting while being totally aligned with myself and who the person that I want to be, you know, and, uh, with my insecurities and everything, but, but really just bringing my whole self.

And I think it's easy to think that we need to be, bring on more of this masculine energy and. And, and sometimes, I mean, and sometimes that might, you know, service, well, I'm not saying to be afraid of it, but, but for me, success as a woman looks like I. Being my whole self and bringing my whole self. And I, I think that we're all seeking wholeness, which of course only comes through Jesus Christ.

So anytime we're tying our worth to, to something else other than that, then we're in trouble. Right. And so whether it's boss, babe, or it's like this perfectionist, [00:36:00] like ideal motherhood, like that's not it either. And I think it's. It's just so important to stay really connected and tied to, to where our worth comes from.

And, and again, just receiving that personal revelation, having that guide us. And, and I think that in every, it doesn't matter what area of the, of the world you're trying, you know, you're, you're working in or there's gonna be some temptation to take on some other, a persona that is not. Not true, not totally authentic to to that.

Um, being a daughter of God, I love the story about taking your baby to the meeting. I recently had a little bit of a similar experience. I was asked, I. To go on the Follow Him podcast with John, by the way. And Hank Smith and I had tried to, I, they, they ask you to block out a certain amount of time and I had already said, you know, I am breastfeeding like I, I.

Would need to break that amount of time up into two parts. But then there were some technical difficulties getting started and we got started late and I was like, my baby is gonna get hungry, you know? And my husband was texting me and he's like, she's starting to get really fussy. What do you want me to do?

And I was like, you know what, just bring her up here to me. And so they, they video in addition to, to talking. So I like positioned myself, well actually I think I fed her before we came back on the video, but then I just like held her and she was like, cooing and making noises. And I kept thinking like, people are gonna think this is so distracting.

And then when the video came out. I just will read you a couple of the comments, but there were so many that were like this. The first comment says so real to see Morgan with her youngest modeling, the mother who is exercising her talents, both of nurturing her family and her fellow saints. It's a [00:38:00] big deal.

I hope this becomes normative, not exceptional when we see young mothers in this space. And then another said, thank you for your example and caring for the needs of your baby daughter, even when you have an important podcast to contribute to. And I just thought it was so cool that people were like, applauding that when I thought it was gonna be like, oh, that was distracting.

Like, please don't bring your baby into this space. Like, I, I can't learn about the scriptures when you're. When you're holding your baby. And instead it was the opposite. And I think sometimes we shy away from those types of opportunities for motherhood to even be recognized. Yes. 'cause we're, we're scared of it.

So validating. And I have found that over and over where people have said in so many interviews, people have said, how is it, how has being a woman held you back in business or a mother? And I'm like, I mean. It hasn't. I've actually found it really disarming and really helpful in many situations, like having an adorable baby with me.

Not that it's always appropriate to have a baby with me in terms of like if it's just distracting for me or whatever. It doesn't mean you have to, but it there. I, I think that we underestimate how much we can do as mothers, how many skills we're actually, um, getting through these long, hard days of motherhood and all it, it can just look so many different ways and I hope that, that feels exciting to, to moms to, I don't know, to continually give each other permission that the water Yeah, like.

Just bring the baby, you know, bring the baby and see how people react. Yeah, I think it definitely helps that your company is all about baby carrying. That's definitely a nice thing. But I, but I do think, I do think we don't, we don't even give people a shot to be supportive of motherhood. Yes. Okay. You mentioned this archetype earlier [00:40:00] of matriarch and I wanna make sure that we talk about this before we finish.

You have a series on your podcast where you highlight matriarchs, which I love because I think somehow honoring our elders has become a little bit lost on our generation. I do appreciate from time to time when you see like tiktoks or reels of like people acknowledging how great older people are. But I think that respect sometimes, or the willingness to learn from people that are older than us and have been there, is it, it sometimes just is non-existent.

And so why do you think that that is so important? Well, I, I think that you, you highlighted some of some of the biggest reasons, but it, coming back to this maiden mother matriarch, kind of the woman's, you know, path here. It's no wonder that we have lost the matriarch because one fewer people are becoming mothers, but also because.

Where we love the maiden, and so we don't, we don't like things that remind us of aging or death, and especially as so much of our society has lost faith in an afterlife, I think there's more fear around it. And, and so we don't look to, to our elders, we worship technology in so many ways. And so we, we don't rely on kind of these wisdom, the wisdom of our elders and wisdom traditions, and.

I think that that is, hurts us in so, so many ways. I mean, I think if you ask just about anybody, you know, what's something you learn from your grandparents? It's like, I mean, they're, they're treasures and they're so often it's perspective that would really help us help all of our anxiety that we're all experiencing but, or so many of us are.

But, uh, but. Yeah. I think that to, to cut off [00:42:00] from that, that part of ourselves and that part of our culture is, is, is really damaging and, and I think it helps us not look, uh, it, it stops us from looking to the future and it pulls us back into this maiden phase that. Is not, yeah. There are qualities that we wanna bring from that maiden archetype of, of, uh, adventure and potential and trying new things, but we don't wanna go back to that.

You know, the, your grandma Moses, who was my last, uh. Portrait that I did of a, of a matriarch, this folk painter. She says she never felt older than when she was 16, and I often remind my 16-year-old that I'm like, when things are hard for her, I'm like, I just want you to know like Grandma Moses. Lived till she was like 101, 102, and she said she never felt older than when she was 16.

It's a hard time. It's a hard time. And so we don't need to be, we don't need to be so afraid of, of getting older, but, but we need more examples that we're looking to of, of how to do that gracefully. And I'm so grateful for we, we actually live in a. Culture in the church where, where we, we do recognize that way more than than outside of it, at least here in, in the US right?

I totally agree with what you said. I think that as you were talking, I was thinking, I think years ago people lived in closer proximity to their elders, and so I think that sometimes that physical distance also creates like an emotional distance. Mm-hmm. I just talked to my grandma on Mother's Day, and I normally talk to her way more often, but with two little girls.

More time had passed than I am proud to admit. And um, and just talking to her like. It made my day. And so I think that it's, it's so important to make sure that [00:44:00] in losing that physical distance, we don't lose touch with, with the people that can have influence on us. You mentioned this woman, grandma Moses, and, uh, I, I believe a friend was the one that introduced you to her work, and I wondered if you could just tell listeners about.

This woman and why her story has been so inspirational and comforting to you. Yeah, so she was a primitive, as in like untrained folk painter if in the early 19 hundreds, and she didn't become, she was the. Farm, wife and mother, and she didn't actually become famous until she was in, she picked up painting in her seventies and really didn't become a household name until her eighties.

And she was on greeting cards like, I mean, her, her art was, and. I mean, selling paintings, you know, now for millions of dollars and she's met presidents and painted for them. It's just this, she has this amazing story, and yet when you read about her life and the things that that mattered to her, it was, I mean, she, one, she was so funny.

She's so funny. But, uh. But it was just one phase in, in her journey. And I, I, I love it because one, it, it represents this continue kind of enduring to the end in this really cool way of, of being open to continual transformation of death and rebirth and of like letting go of, you know, the last phase and embracing the next.

Phase and seeing where your intuition, the spirit guides you. And, and she just really, really embodied that idea so well. I, I loved just to her getting famous at that age and just how little she cared about, about the fame at all. And she would say [00:46:00] things like, like, you know, I could have, I could have just raised chickens.

I was thinking, you know, my, my, my knuckles were hurting, my hands were hurting from arthritis. 'cause she had. Done a lot of worsted art, uh, like embroidery kind of paintings, things with yarn and, and her, but then she had arthritis, so she's like, oh, I guess I'll just pick up painting. And she said, but I could have just.

Raise a bunch more chickens and that would've been just as good. And I mean, really, that's how it should be, right? Of like, yeah, well this is where God loved me and this is the next thing. And so whether it's being famous and hanging out with the president or or raising chickens, it's, it's all the same when you're aligned with your values and your principles.

And she really lived that way and, and I just, yeah. I. I, I could glean lessons from her autobiography and the other biographies I've read, and just looking at her art and these beautiful, beautiful folk scenes that are so simply painted, but, and they're just of the most mundane daily parts of life that she, you, you just feel the light and the beauty that comes through that.

And we just, it's just so easy to miss that in daily, in daily life. Um. It's there and it's available to us and I, but it's easy, it's easy to miss and to think that it needs to be flashier and bigger and we get, we need more attention for whatever we're doing. And she's just a, an amazing example of that as so many older women are of just kind of quietly doing beautiful, amazing things.

Um. I don't know. Yeah, no, I think that it's interesting to think about. I, I, I don't know if you have these moments, Elle. I'm sure you do. I, there's no way that, that I'm the only person that thinks this way, but I think sometimes, like I'll look at my little girl and I'll think. [00:48:00] Someday I'm gonna think about you at this age or see a picture of you.

And it is gonna feel like my heart is being ripped out. And I, I had that thought the other day. She was like pitching a fit about something. And for whatever reason I just like thought to myself someday, like, I'm gonna wish that I could go back to this moment when you're pitching a fit. And I think it's really hard for us sometimes.

When those days feel long and monotonous and lonely to realize how special they are and the, and the beauty in that ordinary that you said that Grandma Moses captured in her art. But it reminds me of the, the quote from the Play R town. Mm-hmm. Um, where, where Emily like gets the chance to go back and she.

Chooses this ordinary day and she says, do any human beings ever realize life while they live it? Every, every minute? And I think that if we, if we were able to see how special. Those ordinary days are, and how bad we could know. If we could know how badly we will someday long for them, then we'd live 'em differently.

But it, it's hard to do in the moment. Oh, it's really beautiful. I mean, yeah, I think that's, I think that's the, the trick of it, right? Where Yeah. Is, is finding presence in those, those little moments every day. I think that that's, it's the culmination of those moments that makes for a happy life. Yeah. Well, El, this has been so fun.

It's been so fun to talk to you, and I just, I am appreciative to you for bringing my attention to some really beautiful thoughts about motherhood and for sharing your thoughts as well. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Just the other day I was at my 11 year old's [00:50:00] little co-op in town and they, their end of year play, they had an end of year play that was.

It's a Christian group that comes together and this Christian lady in the group teacher drama teacher had written these little, these little scenes from the New Testament and one of 'em, one of 'em was, I think it was probably from Matthew 10 37, where he talks where Christ. Talks about if you love your father or mother, more of me, you're not worthy of me and or your son or daughter.

And just basically take up, take up your cross and follow me, you know? And, and the narrator in this scene said. If I'm not number one in your life, then I'm nothing to you. And that like just has stayed with me for the past few days since I heard it, of like, is he really number one? Is it? If he's not number one, then everything is out of order.

And I think that that is what it means to be all in on the gospel of Jesus Christ to me is, is keeping him number one and really reevaluating that all the time of is he really are things out of whack because inevitably. Those priorities are gonna get, are gonna get out of order. But, but when I can say that he's number one, then I can say that, that I'm all in.

I guess. I love that. It's so, so good. Well, thank you so much Elle thank you for, for being with me. Thank you for having me.

We are so grateful to Elle Rowley for joining us on today's episode, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at six Studios for his help with this [00:52:00] episode. We will look forward to being with you again next week.