The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Before we get into today's episode, I just wanted to apologize in advance. I had some technical difficulties on my end during this interview that caused the audio to be a bit lower quality than what we normally try to provide with these episodes. The good news is that Rose sounds perfect and what she says is most important.

So I hope you'll bear with the little bit of feedback when I'm asking questions and hang in there until RO starts. Talking again. We promise this will not become the norm, and I promise that Rose's message is worth listening to. I love a quote found in the new book Expressions of Jesus, which our guest today rose Dayak doll shepherded.

The quote is by Martin Luther King Jr. And it reads the significance of Jesus lay not in his color, but in his unique God consciousness and his willingness to surrender his will to God's will. He was the son of God, not because of his external biological makeup. But because of his internal spiritual commitment end quote, this new collection of pictures of Christ shows how children of God have painted their testimonies, their spiritual commitment, if you will, of Jesus Christ.

Some may look a bit different than what we're used to, but the art has been created for the same purpose. It always has been created for to testify of the significance of Jesus. Rose Day Talk Doll is an award-winning Filipino American artist, born in 1968 in Washington DC, and raised in Northern Virginia.

She received a BFA in art history and fine art studio from VCU in 1990. Her contemporary figurative paintings are. Distinctive by her use of bold colors and dynamic design. But her most iconic work is her religious art, including depictions of Jesus Christ. Her artwork is in several permanent [00:02:00] museum and university collections.

Doll and her husband are the parents of four children and the grandparents of a growing number of grandchildren.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson and I am honored to have Rose Day talk doll on the line with me this evening. Rose, welcome. Oh, thanks for having me, Morgan. Well, this is such a treat for me.

I have admired your art for a very long time, rose. So I am, I am so excited to get to learn more from you. And honestly, preparing for this interview was really rewarding because I realized that you've spoken a good amount about your art and I was able to watch some things and listen to some things. So that was fun for me.

But I'm gonna start out, many of us. Rose I, I would assume those listening are a lot like me. And in that we were introduced to you as an artist when you participated in the I Am A Mormon campaign. In that video years ago, you talked about how you didn't intentionally become a religious painter. How did you find yourself in this space of religious art?

You know, it's really interesting that I didn't begin my journey as a religious painter because I wasn't always a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I, I joined the church, uh. In between my, uh, freshman and sophomore year of art school, I was going to school in Virginia, Commonwealth University School of the Arts, and I was on a different trajectory.

I was doing contemporary figurative painting and I saw myself doing that. But then, uh, what I started doing is entering the, the Church's [00:04:00] International Art Competition, which they host every three years. And I think the first one I entered was in 1996. And. I started entering some work. The very first year I entered.

I did not get accepted into the show, but with every subsequent show I was able to get my artwork in. And that's actually how, uh, I think the church identified me as an artist and people began responding to my work. And after a few years of entering the IT. Uh, the competition is every three years. And the piece really that set the trajectory for my art was flight, and that was about in 2008.

And the response to that, uh, was very unexpected and a lot of things happened. With that painting, it was not only a breakthrough painting for me, but I think that's the one where I got the most response. The church ended up buying this piece and, and then that was about the same time when the I'm a Mormon campaign was launched, so, okay.

So. I found that as I was doing these religious paintings, I, I started finding that I had something to say and that, um, I could sort of liken the scriptures to myself and I found that I could marry some of these religious concepts, spiritual concepts with my, my own. Design and artistic sensibilities, and it kind of all came together in that one painting.

And my art kind of took off from there [00:06:00] and I, and I haven't really looked back.

Wow. So do you mind if I ask you, how did you, did you join the church in Richmond? I joined the church in Virginia. My home was two hours north. I, I grew up in Northern Virginia and that's where I got baptized. I had a friend, um, a long time friend who introduced me to the church as a child and it, but it wasn't until I was away at school for a year and I decided that I wanted to, to look into the church that I just, I started as missionary discussions.

And the rest is history. I joined the church and have never looked back. So neat. So you said in that same I'm a Mormon video, and this stood out to me. You said that your success as an artist was entirely dependent on your relationship with God. I wondered years later, do you feel like you still stand by that statement?

Absolutely. I stand by that statement. And the reason is because. When I was a young mother, my children are all grown out. When I was a young mo mother, I was busy raising children and, and finding it very difficult to find a balance between doing my art and then raising my family. And I was at a crisis point where I didn't know if.

If I was supposed to, to continue with my art, and so I put it on the altar and I asked God if he wanted me to give it my art and just focus on family and, and put my paintbrushes away. But the answer that I got back was, [00:08:00] no, I didn't need to permanently put my art brushes away, but that there would be time, there would be times and seasons for my art and that I needed to just be patient.

And, and that was, that was the, the best advice that I ever got. And since that point, I. I felt like I needed to consecrate my art to God, and I put it in his hands, his timing, and when everything came together in 2008 when I did my breakthrough painting. Which is to this day, to this day, is still one of my top selling paintings, top selling prints and things came together.

And then the Mor, I'm a Moring campaign. I realized that God was fulfilling his word and that everything would happen in its time and in its season, and honestly this path. That he's, he's mapped out for me is way cooler than what I had in mind for myself. I saw myself in New York creating beautiful, figurative paintings, but to be honest, that my art in that direction didn't nearly have the same kind of response.

As my spiritual and religious art and, and in a way, I, I felt guided away from that other path, but to do paintings of a more spiritual or religious nature. And the gates opened once I started focusing on that direction. And. For whatever reason, [00:10:00] um, that's what God has planned for me. And I, I attribute, attribute all my success really to him again, because some of the opportunities were so beyond my own design and my ability to affect.

That I know that he's had a hand in guiding me in my career. That's so neat. Well, I, I think that what you just described Rose, really is the essence of when, when our prophet talks about letting God prevail. Is kind of walking through those doors that we didn't see coming and trusting that, you know, we feel like it's a door that he's open for us and we're gonna walk through it.

Just last, in the last year, you spoke at BYU and you talked about letting God prevail in your art and you invited this. Students that were listening to let God prevail in their art. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about kind of your story of what it's looked like as an artist to let God prevail?

I think it's an extension of what we were just talking about, about letting God prevail. I've found that, uh, there are times when I've had projects. That it almost seemed impossible for me to accomplish, and when I've prevailed upon the Lord to help me and really done my homework, done everything that I could possibly do, I know that I have felt that loaves and fishes factor so many times that he's helped me accomplish.

Nearly impossible [00:12:00] fates on specific pieces where I had a week to finish a painting and the, and the canvas was blank, but I had done all the preparation and I had to paint 12 figures in this painting, and it was really only through the assistance of God that I was able to paint this multi figure painting in a week.

And granted, that's an unusual and extreme circumstance, but there have been multiple similar instances where I've, I've really just had to rely on him to give me the ability to finish a project or to to deliver on a painting for a specific project. And I would say that letting God prevail doesn't just apply to art.

I think that applies to everything in our lives. So if I don't want our listeners to think that this is anything different than what he's asked us to do in our everyday lives, and I think that gives me great comfort because there is no other complicated formula. It is all the same, right? Right. This is not, this is not, uh, isolated.

Situation. I, I love that. And I think that it's interesting to think about, as you were talking, I was thinking, okay, well what has letting God prevail looked like for me? Rose, another thing that you said that I thought was really interesting, um, and one of the things that I read or listened to, I can't remember exactly what it was, but you said, my faith really drives my art.

And LDS faith culture comes out in my art. We've talked about faith more broadly. [00:14:00] I'm curious, as a latter day saint, how does your faith as a latter day saint drive your art? You know, I can't really separate my life as an artist from my life as a latter day saint. It's all combined into one. And the inspiration that I get for paintings are because I have put myself in a place to listen to the Holy Ghost, to, uh, to follow spiritual promptings.

And much like any of us would, let's say we're preparing a talk or we're, it's, it's sort of this, uh, it might be a similar process where we might feel some, um, some inspiration in different directions only. I think my inspiration comes in pictures and I usually see a painting like right away, and I do whatever I can to pull off that vision.

So my faith really does drive my art. It's, it's the core factor in all of my paintings. It's that, that same thread and they're, my paintings are usually quite personal, even. Even if it is a, a narrative about one of the stories in the gospels, there's usually a personal element, a personal commentary, like if I was painting.

The rich young man and he asks Jesus, what lack I yet he's been doing everything in his life to keep the commandments and to live his life according to the gospel. And then he asks Jesus, what lack I. Well, I could be that rich young man asking that same question. [00:16:00] Uh, I think that could be anybody asking that question.

And so I often put myself into the painting and often eye contact between that person and the savior or the, or the savior and the viewer is such an important element because to me, these, these paintings have. That personal factor to the image, so well said. So Rose, everybody thinks that your art is beautiful.

I think your art is beautiful, but I admittedly am not an expert on art. And recently the executive director of the Springville Museum of Art, which those in Utah, know that the Springville Museum of Art is like the best local museum of art. She called you technically masterful. You have said that you almost studied film instead of art.

So talk to me about your approach to art technically and kind of how that pivotal decision to study art instead of film kind of influences the way that you approach your pieces, because they almost have like a cinematic feel to them. Many times it seems. Well, I'm a, a great admirer of film as a, as a, as an art medium and as a medium of storytelling.

And I, I really love good cinema cinematography, and I, I think I approach my images like a cinematographer in the way that I. Use camera angles and lighting to tell my story. Um, I use big broad shapes and juxtapositioning figures to tell the story, and I think I [00:18:00] most enjoy bits of, uh, of filmmaking storytelling where there's almost no dialogue where all of.

All of the dialogue, all of the inner dialogue is shown in the face. And, and that is why, uh, facial expressions, uh, are really important in my artwork. 'cause, because the subtle nuances in the face can tell an entire story. And, uh, whether that person is pushed right up against the camera or pulled or in the background, you can use those elements to help tell your story.

The mood of the story can be told through color, can can be told through lighting. It could be told in. Whether everything's happening in the shadows or in the light, um, there are so many tools that are at your disposal as a storyteller, lighting composition, all those things help to tell your, your narrative.

Well, I think anybody rose that's followed your has noticed that. While there are some things that have remained, there are other things that have evolved and I love a quote that you said. You said, as I grow spiritually, I think my art evolves as well. How would you say that growth has been manifest, at least in your eyes, personally?

You know, I think the way my art has evolved, the older I get, I think the simpler my images, uh, [00:20:00] get in terms of I like bigger, bolder shapes and very simple. Uncluttered images, and I feel that's the way that I aspire my life to be. I aspire my life to be more simple and uncluttered. Some things that seemed more important and fussy, my aspiration is to rid myself of those things.

I'm not always successful because life is often just chaotic, and that's sort of the mortal. Experience. That's just the nature of mortality. But I, I found that the more important things stand out to me in life, like family and the gospel and my church calling and hopefully my art, which kind of is interwoven in all that.

You know, I've, I'm trying to keep my life more simple. Like I said, I'm not always successful at that because life can be complicated, but at least it's aspirational. It's aspirational in my, in my life, and it's aspirational in my art. And again, I don't know if I always achieve it, but that's kind of my goal.

I love hearing that. I think there are so many things where I feel like there's the person that I want to be and the person that I am, and that sometimes I'm like, oh, I feel like they're so separate, but I am trying. One thing that I loved about preparing for this interview is. I had seen the, I'm a Mormon years ago, and I've seen your art throughout the years, but I had not, I don't follow, I hadn't followed you on Instagram, and so I was like, oh, she's on Instagram.

So I go in there and then I learned that your [00:22:00] daughter is also an artist. And now instead of the young mom that you were in the, I'm a Mormon, you're a grandmother now. And I think that that evolution and then looking at your art and being like, yes, this is a human being. That was evolving throughout time and there's so much, I'm sure, background behind all the different pieces, but I just, I loved thinking about that as I looked at, at your art.

You've recently told the Salt Lake Tribune. Most people are on the edge of crisis. I feel like the more personal I make these paintings, the more universal they end up being, which I think is so interesting. How do you as an artist, approach making art that is personal? I think we touched on it a little bit.

Usually the pieces that I paint. Are extremely personal. I recently have been working on the the Three Temptations of Christ. Now most of us are familiar with those stories. And how would they be personal? Well, I feel that they're very personal because I feel. That adversary sort of hovering there, trying to trip me up on a daily basis.

And, and so those images for me give me strength because. We all know that Christ prevailed in that situation, that we too have that power to rebuke the adversary in our lives. We have the power to say no to temptation, and I love that and it gives me strength. And there are these three big paintings, and one of which is now at the Spring Bowl Museum.

Their permanent collections. So [00:24:00] unfortunately the trio is split up, but I still have the digital of these images and they still give me strength. I love those pieces. I also painted the Woman of Faith. I painted that image about five times, and really sorry. The woman of Faith is the woman with the issue of blood.

And so I've named her the Woman of Faith, and I love this story because this woman could be me. This woman could be anybody. It could be anybody who needs either physical or emotional healing. I think that could be any of us. And that's what I found and what I meant, that most people are on the edge of crisis because most of us have stress in our lives.

Many of us have health issues. Many of us have, are, are perhaps have, maybe we have relationship issues and, and so. When I make these images personal, I feel that they become more universal and can speak to many people. And this is what I found through experience where people have, uh, responded or have, uh, remarked on.

On these paintings and have thanked me saying, you know, I need really needed to see this painting. I'm going through a hard time right now and. And something about this painting just really gave me a lot of comfort. It usually takes me by surprise, but it shouldn't at this point in my career. But I'm always humbled and I'm always grateful and it's usually I look for, there's no way that I [00:26:00] can predict or demand a response to a painting.

I feel that my job is simply just to, to paint and to be honest, to be. Authentic to my own experience, and invariably somebody else is probably going through something where they respond to it, and I think that. Happens with all kinds of art. It doesn't have to be religious art. A person can respond to a beautiful landscape and it might speak to their soul because they're in a place to, to receive something from the spirit about that, about that painting that gave them joy.

So that's probably what I meant about, um, making things personal. I think that an audience can respond to your piece simply because they can relate to something in that painting. Yeah, I always say I feel like we're all a lot more the same than we are different, and yet we focus so much on our differences and I think that's doing ourselves such a, such a disservice as a society.

I, I wanna talk a little bit. About this book. Expressions of Jesus, many of the artists and art. I guess when I first looked at it, rose, maybe I should give my experience to, to listeners. I expected all the art to be similar to the cover of the book. Instead, I was surprised by how much of the art I already knew and was familiar with.

So many of these artists will be familiar or recognizable, and many of the pieces will be familiar to Latter Day Saints, Liz Lemon Swindle, Dan Wilson, Dale Parson. How many of these artists in the book were members of our faith [00:28:00] versus not? And how did you approach creating that mix? I would say that. The last I checked, the number is about 37 or 38 LDS artists out of 104.

So we're looking at about a third of the artists of our LDS tradition. So the process that went into selecting the images, as I was consulting with Deseret book, they had, they'd asked me to, to curate this book and to really use, um, my point of view as an artist, uh, to, to, to gather these images. A lot of them were.

Some of my favorites. My degree was not only in fine art studio was also in art history, and so some of the images come from Proto Renaissance, Renaissance, romantic, it called as boar and modern 20th century. A lot of these images will be familiar to to this audience. They're of course. Will be images like Fran Schwartz and Hans Hoffman and Carl Block, and there'll be images like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci.

Some of those really solid images from Christian imagery that most of us have seen, most of us have seen the Last Supper. Having said that, we've juxtaposed those images to lesser familiar images that come from all over the world and some of the images date back to antiquity. We're talking. From Syria and [00:30:00] ancient Greece and Egypt, where you have those early Christian colonies creating art, and then there's a tradition of.

Christian Ethiopian art that dates back centuries. This folk art style, which has been passed down through the centuries and exists still today, this similar art style, which is distinctly Ethiopian, where you find Jesus who is African. And you'll also see images from China. These Chinese images are distinct because they have really held to their traditional ink wash art techniques and have maintained that in telling the, the story of the gospels.

And likewise, we have some images from India. Which was a beautiful surprise to me since I hadn't seen any of them. Uh, there's a contemporary Indian artist, uh, who incorporate some of the motifs, the Indian motifs, like the Manola, and which is a symbol of the universe and eternity and enlightenment into the imagery with beautiful.

Stylized designs all throughout and even images dating back to the 17th century, some Indian Mole paintings. They're just beautiful and maintained that illustrative neck technique, which is very flat. We tried to find as much varieties we could. We found some Japanese images, this Batik artist from the 20 and 21st century, who has done an [00:32:00] incredible volume of Christian Batik and textile paintings, which are extraordinary, but they're very stylized and they're very flat.

We decided to, to collect these images in as big a variety as we could to tell a more global story about. Christian imagery because I think most of us in our LDS faith are only exposed to a certain amount. We don't really see the depth and the breadth of Christian art that's out there. And this, the collection is staggeringly beautiful in its variety.

I love, there's a painting by Lordes Villagomez, and. Her painting has strong Mesoamerican influence. She's a Mexican artist and she brings this Tu Kano influence to her, to her work. And it's just, it's bright, it's vibrant, it's beautiful. And then there is another artist. Her name is Laura James. I was speaking of Ethiopian art.

She is a contemporary. Caribbean artist who grew up in New York, who really was set on fire by this Ethiopian folk art, and she brings that to bear since she has that African heritage. And so she paints contemporary images that have been informed by this Ethiopian fog art. And I love, we have Julie, Julie Ann Lake Diaz, who is Chilean American, and she brings her Chilean heritage to her art.

And I love that these artists have [00:34:00] brought their heritage into their art and have maintained their, their own visual heritage because it's true to them and it makes the art relevant. To them personally. And I think that's, that's the overarching message that I found that these artists have created these images and have preserved or, or incorporated their own heritage into their art because that is how they have found meaning.

In this art, let me also reference another artist. He's a Chinese artist. His name is Chen, and he established a, a religious art seminary in 2017. And. He teaches these seminarians in China and he is absolutely committed to teaching and to preserving and to perpetuating this traditional ink wash style.

And he brings this style to portraying gospel narratives. And there are several Chinese artists in this book who maintain that tradition because it speaks to them. It speaks to them as a people because this is, they're, he's painting his own vernacular, and whereas we're so used to seeing western images of Jesus, somebody in China might not have the same sort of relationship to these images, but.

Because ink wash paintings are so traditional, so familiar to, to them and their culture that they have, they have preserved that in their Christian art and I find that [00:36:00] breathtakingly beautiful. I was sad that we couldn't put more of who Chen's work in. In the book, he did a 23 yard ink scroll of the life of Christ.

Where he begins with the nativity and ends at the end of the scroll with. The resurrection and ascension and it's just, it's just so beautiful. But because of the format, we, we didn't include that in this book, but it's just to give you an example of really the depth of Christian art and, and in so many different places around the world where they have really maintained their own cultural heritage.

Well, I think it's so beautiful to see it all with the contrast between the different colors, the different cultures, and all of that on display together, I think is very powerful. So I would encourage anybody listening to, to make sure that you at least get to. See it, um, because I think it's, I think it's powerful and I love what you've done with it.

Rose, you said, I am a firm believer that representation is absolutely important so people can feel themselves as part of the story of salvation. There are over 50 from my count Rose. Correct me if I'm wrong, I tried to go through the back of the book where you have all the different artists listed in a little bio of them.

From my count, over 50 of the artists are still living. Do you think that we're. Seeing more religious art that's representative of individual cultures, or is it just that we are not familiar with what's being done or has been done historically all over the world? I think it's a combination of both. I think that most of us aren't aware, [00:38:00] including myself, until I delved into this project.

I wasn't aware of a lot of the art, even though I knew that I would find something I was not aware of, of particular examples. But to your point about representation, I do think it is important that people feel that they, they are part of the story of salvation. They want to see themselves. That doesn't necessarily mean that they need to see themselves in a particular story, but to somehow relate to it and to see art that is created by artists of faith, but artists of different cultures and nationalities, and to see.

There are acknowledged, uh, I think is is part of, of having representation to know that it's out there, to know that it's, it's, it's valid and it's important. It is also important to see yourself in the story of salvation too. For instance, if you see a story with Jesus and, and, and the concourses of angels, you of course will want to see people who look like you in that image.

So I think in that instance is, is a good example where artists can do a better job in, in representing that. This, that Christ is for everyone and all races and all of all colors. I think that's important where that applies. And we have so many members [00:40:00] of our church who are outside of the United States.

We are an international church, and I think more of the art is going to reflect that and not only reflect them in the images, but but also bring to light. Their own expressions of Jesus, their own expressions of faith in their art. And I hope to see more of that and I hope more is being created. And in my personal opinion, I think there's kind of a renaissance in Christian art that we're seeing now.

I think we're kind of at the beginning of it, I think with social media. Our audience is global and I feel that more artists are feeling, uh, the desire to paint Christ, um, that especially those coming from our faith. I think a lot of those images are coming from our LDS visual artists. I think that we are encouraging one another.

To create images of Christ, and I think that's a very good thing. I think we kind of play off one another and get inspired. We're seeing more diverse, uh, representations of Jesus as well. We're seeing Middle Eastern, Jesus. Seeing Jesus in many colors, and I don't necessarily feel that we're debating Jesus's skin color in this book and it to the contrary, I think what we're hoping to accomplish in that this book is that expressions of Jesus come from a multiplicity of people's.

Of different cultures, different cultural traditions, different visual [00:42:00] traditions, and our hope for this book is to collect that in one place and give you a taste of really what's out there. And what's out there is a feast. It's a feast for the eyes, the variety, the textures of so many different images, all of them.

Are beautiful. Really. I was stunned when the whole collection came together and when I got the book in my hands, I was really staggered. It was just even beyond what I imagined. The, the book is just beautiful. You know, the, the, the pages are heavy weight and the, they really do a good job at, at, at. Showing the art at its best, and I really hope that people enjoy the book for what it is.

It's just a visual feast and it just shows that it shows the impact that Christ has had around the world and that he shows up in art all throughout the centuries and in. Nearly every culture, and it's just beautiful to behold knowing that really Christ is the Savior of the entire world. That is the spirit that we hope that comes through the book.

I. I love that. And I think, you know, I think one thing that we learn through the creation is how much God loves variety and that that if it's important to him, I think it's important, should be important to us as well. So thank you so much for your work on this beautiful book. I, I really loved it. My last question for you, rose, is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?[00:44:00]

To be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ is to,

is to do everything that we've been asked to do, which is to, to let God prevail, to get on our knees every day. And when we don't. Just pick up where we left off and get on our knees and to stay close to the scriptures and to to have conversations with heavenly Father to know his will to to more further align our lives with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

It means course corrections. It means repenting often and every day. It means forgiving yourself when you slip up because that's what I think heavenly Father would do. It means not being so hard on ourselves because I think the adversary would have us beat ourselves down. It means not listening to those voices.

It means being a light and, and. Living our lives as Jesus would, it means serving. It means listening. Sometimes it means putting my paintbrush down and going and serving a neighbor if that's what the spirit tells me to do, and that's what I found throughout my life, is that. We need to make ourselves open to promptings and to be willing, and sometimes that's really hard.

Sometimes we can ignore those promptings, but the more we listen and the more we obey, I think the more light we let into our lives and more revelation that [00:46:00] we will receive and the more aligned our lives will be with the savior. I guess it's a long way of saying that just letting God prevail in every aspect and to just let him in.

Let him, let him be a part of your life. Let him be a part of your decision making. I think that's really important. And, and, and to be open to it. I think we can be very prideful. I know being an artist, our tendency artists have a tendency to be very prideful in the, in the way that. It's you creating this image, but if you invite the spirit in, it could be so much more.

Well, I feel like that last statement that you made, I'm like, we could really riff off of that, but we're out of time. Rose, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks so much. I really appreciate it too.

We are so grateful to Rose Datoc Dall for joining us on today's episode. You can find the book Expressions of Jesus in Deseret bookstores now. As always, big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at six studios for his help with this in every episode of this podcast. And thank you so much for listening.

We'll look forward to being with you again next week.