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[00:00:00] John Koelliker watched his father battle a brain tumor for years. He watched his dad, who had always been a good man, become even better, and in the book, the father and son wrote together, everyone needs a brain tumor. It is clear that David Koelliker knew he was being changed. In the book, he wrote, Nephi said, why should I yield to sin because of my flesh?

Every time I say an unkind word or react in anger, my thoughts turn to my tumor. It becomes larger, figuratively, I lose hope and become frustrated with my condition. End quote. But David Icker kept fighting, fighting cancer, and fighting to be the best he could be. It left his son wanting to do the same.

John Koelliker is the CEO and co-founder of Leland, a marketplace helping users reach their most ambitious goals by connecting them with career and admissions experts. In 2023, he was a Forbes 30 under 30 recipient. Prior to Leland John worked in strategy and product at Uber, LinkedIn, and Curated. He attended Stanford GSB for his MBA and BYU for his undergraduate degree.

He and his wife car. Are the parents of four boys.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson and I'm honored to have John Coker with me today. John. Come. Thank you. Very excited to be here. Well, I'm gonna start out and say this, my husband knew John in college and before John ever started, Leland.

Be told me one day, if any of my friends are gonna be super successful in life, it will be John Koelliker. So he called it before. Thanks, Ben. Before, before Forbes put you on the 30 under 30 Beej was [00:02:00] calling it. But I wanna start in kind of a unique place. For those of you that that know of John and know of his background, you likely don't know that his dad passed away from a brain tumor.

And I, from what I understand, that has been incredibly formative for you. So in preparation for this interview, I got a hold of a book that John helped his dad write, and the book is called Everybody Needs a Brain Tumor. I wanna start by reading just a small paragraph from this book to give our listeners a taste of the person that raised you.

It says when someone dies from cancer, the fight isn't lost because their body was overtaken. The fight took place. In their mind, heart and soul victory is not determined by if or when they die, but how they lived while they were fighting cancer, like life will do what it must. But we can control our attitude, how we treat others, how we live, and how we feel about ourselves and the world.

Beating cancer shouldn't be about being cured from cancer. Beating cancer should be about mentally and emotionally overcoming a difficult and sometimes terminal situation. It should be about living life to the fullest and being happy even when everything seems to be pulling you the other way. End quote.

I love that quote so much. I sent it to my sister. I was like, this is the coolest outlook on something incredibly hard. But you said that through his journey with cancer your dad made, became a better person, a different person. And so tell me a little bit about the transformation that you saw in your dad from the time that he found out he had this brain tumor to when he passed away.

Yeah. Well, I know lots of people have situations like this. Everyone's situation's very unique. I, I think so. My dad was always a great, great dad. He was faithful. He was kind, he was loving, he was an awesome, a great [00:04:00] person. And but to see someone go through the refiners fire actively and see what that does when you sort of consecrate it for.

Good is really special. It's a miracle. And I think what what I saw was, was basically him on his knees wrestling with God actively, you know, begging him, please let me raise my kids. Please let me live. I want to be a dad. I want to be a, a tool in your hands and. I'll do whatever you want. I'll, I'll, you know, if, if it means I have to die, I'll do it, but I, I want this.

And to kind of see that wrestling process and see the kind of alignment process, you know, will always stick with me. Specifically. I think he, you know, there were, there were lots of little things like he came up with this motto, only hugs in our house and so. Whenever my friends would come over, they would have to hug my dad before we like hung out.

17-year-old boys are like, okay, we gotta go hug John's dad. And, and it's funny 'cause now they, they, my friends still bring that up and so I think it's just kind of like manifest this outward manifesting of love and of uh, you know, I always, I think the be therefore perfect has always felt like such an insurmountable challenge for all of us.

And I think it taught me that. Perfection in action certainly is, but perfection and intent or in your heart is something that feels a little bit more attainable. And I, you know, my dad wasn't perfect by any means, but I think his intent was refined through the experience. And I think that's, you know, that's the message of the book every Why everyone eats a brain tumor.

'cause it can refine us. And you were how old? When he was initially diagnosed? I was 16 and my, my youngest brother was I think four or five. Wow. And so he was initially diagnosed, you said he kind of tried to cover it up. Initially, but it's hard to cover up a large scar on your head. And then you went on your mission and his cancer kind of took a turn for the worst.

Talk to me about what it was like to [00:06:00] be a missionary dealing with that from thousands of miles away when you're really close to your dad. And did you feel like being a missionary made it harder or easier? Yeah, I, I remember being in this little internet cafe in the middle of Brazil and. Getting the update that his cancer had come back and, and he had always tried to downplay it 'cause he didn't want this burden on us throughout our lives.

And so it was always, you know, I have this little bump on my head and I'm gonna get it removed. And then you see his scar and it's like staples all around his ear and you're like, that was a little bump. That feels like a bigger bump. But you know, he was a little bit more honest with me at that point and it was hard.

I, you know, I think there were, I obviously wanted to be close to him. But I, you know, I couldn't really do anything to help if I were there and, and I knew that being a missionary would was, you know, both a distraction and also the thing that I, he and my heavenly father would've wanted me to be doing.

And, and so I felt like I could, in the same way that, uh, you know, when you're living your life in accordance with, with Heavenly Fathers teachings, you, you feel like you have confidence in that relationship and can call on him for help. And so I think that was really helpful. 'cause I, there's nothing, you know, no better time than being a missionary.

To feel confident in your relationship with Heavenly Father and, and so I think that certainly helped, uh, get it through, but it is hard to be gone for sure. Yeah. I think it's interesting how often, whether it's being a missionary or just like dealing with something in your life that it feels like the Lord.

Says like, you can't fix this, or You can't do anything to make this better, but let me show you something else that you could contribute to. Yeah. That can kind of shift your focus. And also if you can help somebody else, he'll help us. You know? Yeah. And it's kind of, it's neat to see that in this book that your dad wrote, um, and that you helped him with.

He talks about having a conversation with a son. I'm assuming that son was you? Yeah. Okay. So he says that you, he was talking about how he could no longer do a lot of things that he loved to do. Like he loved to play catch with [00:08:00] his sons and he could no longer do that. And he was kind of expressing frustration over how this cancer was making him unable to do those things.

And then you all, you both kind of came to this resolution that. While he couldn't do the things that he was used to being able to do, he instead could do things that would kind of achieve the same end. Talk to me a little bit about what you remember about that conversation and what you learned from that.

Yeah, so when, when my dad, my dad had always said he wanted to write this book, and I kind of thought he wouldn't get around to it and wanted to make sure we captured it, and so. He had had this stroke and couldn't really walk or move his hands and was, you know, falling asleep a lot during the day. And so we moved in, Carly and I, for a period of like six to eight months before we moved off to California, moved in with my parents to help and that's when we worked on the book.

And so we would spend hours talking and I would, you know, I would try to extract everything from him and then I'd go and write it down and then extract and then write it down. And one of those conversations was. How hard it was to be forced to just stop doing everything like one by one. Like, alright, now you can't bike, now you can't drive now, you can't work now.

You can't play catch, you know, every single thing was just kinda stripped from him. And I think when you broke down why he loved doing all those things, it all came back to the people and the relationships underneath all of them. And one of the things that we talked about was, I asked him as a part of this process, what, what is true?

What? What do you think success in life is, dad? And he said, um. How much you love those around you. And I was like, I think you misunderstood what I said. Uh, like, that's, that doesn't make any sense as I'm like preparing to start my career. And, you know, definitely don't think that is the definition of success.

And, and that's truly like, you know, the more that I've thought of that stuck with me, I think about it almost weekly. That's to him, what, you know, what, what mattered is, is how much he loved those around him, the relationships he built. And so, yeah, he couldn't do all these different things, but. He could still get [00:10:00] to the core of it, which was the relationships and the people.

And he could sit on the porch and talk to people. He could, you know, he could do all sorts of other things that still brought him the same satisfaction. So how do you feel like you've now been able to take the things that you learned from that period of time and getting to spend time with somebody that is facing kind of their mortality and then using that now in your.

Work and family. Yeah, it's, well, I think for one, it's given me so many opportunities to connect with people that are going to, I, I imagine, you know, in this room or listening to this podcast. There are thousands and thousands of people going through something similar or, you know, challenging something hard and to being able to connect with them and, and share my experience, but just listen and also recognize that everyone's experience is so different and sometimes they don't want to hear that they went through, you know, I went through something like that.

They just want to. Feel, you know, feel like someone cares about them. So I think from an empathy perspective, it's been so, so valuable. I also think from a being willing to do what God wants us to do, perspective, which I'm still learning, but my wife and I talk about all the time. You know, when we get new callings or we get new, new challenges or new things that, that we're asked to do.

Being able to say yes and, and sometimes that's hard and sometimes it's not what we wanna do. But I think that that example has stuck with me throughout all, you know, all of those difficult challenges. At the end of the book, you wrote kind of an afterward, and you talk about this experience of your dad insisting that he kneel to pray even when he couldn't get up, and that there were even times where your mom had to call the neighbors to come help him get up off his knees.

How did watching that strengthen your testimony? Yeah, we set that rule that he couldn't. Spray on his knee because it actually was annoying when like our mom is like trying to heave him off the ground. 'cause she [00:12:00] wasn't wanting to call the neighbors and he was like, you know, no, I'm, I'm gonna, I, I can't, you know, that probably firm, you know, strengthened his resolve to do it.

But I think it, it, you know, it is that like. What can I do? I, you know, he, he, he can still kneel, he can still submit. I think the physical, our, you know, there's, I was reading the screw tape letters Submit From by CS Lewis. Many of you have seen that. And one of the things that did talks, one of the principles is that our bodies are connected to our souls.

And so the act of kneeling connects. It actually does connect to our soul. And so, so I think he, and he felt that. And I, and I think I, you know, there's, there's definitely times where I'm too tired to kneel and or think I am. And, and that, that definitely makes me feel like, well, if a, a guy that had had a stroke and three brain tumors and couldn't walk or use the bathroom by himself could get on his knees, you know, I probably should find a way to figure that out.

So I think that those, those things stick with you forever. Yeah, we have recently been trying to teach our 2-year-old how to pray, and she's not very into it. And so I'm like, how do we let this sink in? So I love thinking about prayer and why we do it and why we do it the way that we do it. And I think that that your, your dad's example and what you said about screw tape letters is so powerful.

I wanna shift to entrepreneurship. You and your dad came up with this idea for a baseball. The, tell us what a core baseball is. Yeah, it's a, it's like a soft, it looks and feels like a normal baseball, so it has the leather and the stitching, but it's squishy on the inside so you can throw it at your friends and.

Cars or whatever you want. And, and your dad had this idea because somebody like hit the weather off the ball. Yeah, that's right. When I, when we would train, you know, after, and I have three younger brothers, we played a lot of baseball. Eventually the cover would get ripped off and then we'd stuff it with cotton and then he would sew it back up and we'd keep playing.

'cause we liked that it wasn't, you know, there's a lot of plastic balls out there that would hurt if he played peg outs. And so we wanted the feel of a real ball, but we wanted it to be soft. [00:14:00] Okay. So they, they had this baseball idea and you decided that you'd make it a company. And from what I understand, that was like.

First entrepreneurial itch. Yeah. Is that right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So talk to me about how that kind of planted in you a desire to start a company of your own again, I guess. Yeah. I, so I, I loved the. You know, starting a company is, is an act of faith, right? It's like this thing doesn't exist. I believe that it should, and I'm gonna work, I'm gonna put in effort to see what happens and realize it.

And I, and I think, and it's just such a fun process and I, I think in many ways that is. What I felt like I learned on my mission was this, you know, I don't, this is, I have not found anyone to teach. I need to go work and believe that I can go find these people, that they're out there, that God has prepared them.

And so I think it, entrepreneurship is, is sort of connected to, to faith in many ways and I just, I love the challenge of it. And so, you know, every time I would do these other investing internships or other things, I was just like, man, I want to get back to, to building and, and operating companies. So that was my, my first little, and I didn't have any idea what I was doing.

I was running this thing outta my dorm and walked to the post office every morning and shipped my baseballs and got to know the post office lady. Definitely an inefficient way to build a company is walking to the post office by yourself every day. But it was great and it's, you know, it's, we went on, went on to sell in Nordstrom and j.

Crew and a bunch of random stores, so, so cool. It was really fun. Yeah. And so from there you mentioned that you worked for some other companies prior to starting your own. You worked for Uber and LinkedIn. These are companies that people recognize the name. Having that experience, what do you feel like you learned or observed from those companies about how to build a successful business and how has that influenced what you've started now?

Yeah, the, so Uber is sort of famous for toxic culture. There's actually like a TV show called Super Pumped that you can watch of about some of the challenges of it. And I, I interned at Uber during like peak [00:16:00] craziness of Uber days where. They were, yeah, all sorts of things were happening. And um, LinkedIn was maybe a little bit more of a softer culture, that that was more encouraging.

And it was interesting how it sort of teetered up like the, the Uber culture was high performance. It was like, we are gonna change the world and we are gonna run you over if you get in the way. And LinkedIn was like, Hey, we want you to be here for a long time. And, but they didn't have as much of the high performance.

And I, and I think that if I've learned anything in my career, it's that. I want to be an and kind of person. I want to be someone that can be a great dad and a great business person. I wanna be someone that can demand excellence of the people I work with and be loving. And I, it's a lot easier. It's, it's, you know, there's a lot of these famous athletes like Kobe and Michael Jordan that are celebrated for their mamba mentality and their killer instinct.

And you know, of course it's led, it's led them to accomplish amazing things, but it's, it's almost easier to do one thing relentlessly than it is to do, to try to try to do both. And, and I think God wants, like, wants us to do both. If Christ was the ultimate example of this, right, he demanded excellence of his followers.

He demanded, he told 'em to leave their nets and follow him and abandon everything and be better and learn, but he also was loving. And so I think it, it, it's taught those companies and, and I think, um, you know, my, my faith have taught me a lot about that, that balance and, and how to strike that. I love something, John, that you wrote so.

Fast forward. You are at Stanford, at gsb, and you start this company, Leland. And I love something that you say in your own coaching bio, which I didn't even know that you do coaching yourself, which is cool. Um, but it said, I coach because I love helping people reach their goals as the oldest of five siblings and now a father of.

Four boys. I've always felt excited about mentoring the next generation. If you're looking for a champion, someone willing to be in your corner and help you [00:18:00] succeed, I'm your guy. I feel like this probably sums up a bit why you started Leland, but first, I guess before we get to this idea of goals, tell me a little bit about how your company came to be.

How did you have the idea for it? Yeah. Yeah. So. Growing up, I was always small. I had a late birthday and I loved sports. And so every time I'd start a new season, I'd look at my coach, he'd look at me, and we had this understanding that he did not believe in me. It was like, great, we got this. Now I gotta spend the whole season proving to you that I can play and.

You know, there was one particularly frustrating experience where I didn't play and thought I should have or whatever, and came into my ca it was in my room and upset. And my dad came in and we put up this sign on my wall that said, it's not how big you are, it's how big you play. And it was this cheesy little sign, but like to 14-year-old John.

I was, I loved it. And, um, you know, eventually I grew and then, you know, that size is no longer a, a challenge, I guess, for me. But I, I think it, it taught me. Two important things. The this one, it taught me, um, to focus on what I can control and not let doubts of others dictate what I think is possible. And then two, it taught me what it feels like to feel small and to, to look out for those people.

And so in many ways, Leland is founded on that, which is we, we want to help people. Reach their goals. We believe in underdogs. We believe ambition is sacred. We think, uh, even a kernel of a, you know, of a goal matters. And so Leland was, uh, you know, founded at Stanford to help people reach their ambitious goals.

Whether that's applying to a job, applying to a school that you're trying to get into dental school, or trying to get into BYU or you're trying to, you know, get a job at. LinkedIn or Uber or any other place. So yeah, it felt like it was, it was sort of hard to find experts that, that would be willing to help you and, and that's why we started it.

And why do you feel like, John, that goals are something that are so important to you and, and why [00:20:00] are they so important to all of us? Yeah, I mean, I, I, I guess I've, I've talked a lot about faith today. I think having a goal is an act of faith, right? It's saying, I think that I can make a better life for myself in this particular dimension, whether it's spiritual or intellectual or, you know, professional.

And just that willingness to say, I'm willing to fail. I'm willing to put it out there that I want to accomplish something that I haven't yet. That's something that my wife and I think all they talk about all the time with our kids, we want our kids to be comfortable failing. To, to say, Hey, I, I'm gonna stick my neck out there and I'm gonna ask, I'm gonna ask her out.

And if she says, no, that's okay. You know, it's better than it is. Better to, to try. I'm gonna say, I want to, you know, I was talking with an, an uncle of mine who's, whose, uh, whose son wanted to be the captain of his football team and he didn't get it. And I said, how awesome that he told you he wanted that because it's way better to try.

Strike out than it is to, um, you know, just say, I, I don't, I don't care about that. I don't, I don't, you know, it is just safe. And so I think we celebrate that. We celebrate any kernel of any kernel of a goal is, is, uh, sacred. My husband and I just recently had dinner with some friends who, uh, tried to do a startup together and they ev eventually decided to kind of throw in the towel.

And at this dinner they said that one of the biggest reasons that they wanted to do it was they wanted to show their kids that it was okay to fail. And that was like the biggest thing that stood out to me from the whole dinner. I couldn't stop thinking about it. Am I showing my girls? That it's okay to fail or am I just trying to show them this fake perception of perfection?

Yeah. And I think that that's, that's so important. Okay. So your business connects people with mentors. What would you say makes a great mentor and who have been some great mentors to you? Yeah, I think so. Being a great coach or mentor or you know, someone that can help is [00:22:00] it's, they have to have. This, you know, wisdom, knowledge, judgment, skill, whatever it is, experience.

But then this, this, and that's actually really easy for us to vet the hard stuff to vet is are they encouraging and kind and helpful and believe in you, which is often, you know, maybe more important. And I, I think if any of you have have played for coaches that knew a ton about the game. But just couldn't quite figure out how to inspire people.

It's like I would take someone that knew nothing. You know, it's the whole Ted lasso thing, right? Right. It's like take someone that knows nothing about soccer but is just a motivator and they might be a better soccer coach than someone that, that just yells at everyone. And so I think a lot of the mentors that I think about, yeah, many of them had knowledge or experience, but most of them just believed in me or gave me the chance.

And, and so, uh, you know, I, I think. Uh, too many to name. Honestly. I, investors, coaches, friends, aunts, uncles, and my dad. I think, of course, my, my mom, um, parents I think are, are, have a special opportunity to do that. Yeah. I think that idea of like somebody that you're willing to run through a wall for. Yeah.

Like it's amazing what you can accomplish when somebody makes you feel like you do anything for 'em. Yeah, totally. Speaking of people that you do anything for, you and Carly have four little boys and I have been impressed just observing from afar how much Carly supports you and how much you support Carly.

I love a quote from President Hinkley, and oddly enough, I found myself quoting this yesterday when we did our other podcast recording, but Sister Hinkley, I guess one night said to President Hinkley, you have always given me wings to fly, and I have loved you for it. And so I wondered, what is your advice for choosing a spouse who will give you wings to fly?

And what would you say about how to best do that for your spouse? Yeah, I, I think good relationships come with sacrifice and I think understanding that from the beginning [00:24:00] and having, picking someone that understands that is so, is so important. And, and I think giving wings, Carly and I were laughing about this because sometimes your job is to, is to lift into and, and to, and to say you can do this and to believe in someone.

And it's sometimes it's also to. Clip your wings and pull you back to Earth, right. And say, Hey, you know, and, and Carly thinks it's her job to come into Leland's headquarters and like tell funny stories that are embarrassing about me to their employees, which is awesome. She's gotta keep you humble. Uh, yeah, exactly.

So, you know, I think we, we've, I feel so lucky to have Carly in my life. I think I. She's an amazing mom. I think she, she, you know, the boys see her pursuing her own professional goals as, as a dancer. So she's anxiously engaged in, in that. And I, you know, I try to be anxiously engaged in my work and in our callings and all these different things.

And it all comes back to finding someone that's willing to. To sacrifice what they want in order to give you space to, to run and know when it's time to be in the spotlight or time to pull back and let them be in the spotlight. Yeah, I just saw this week a post on LinkedIn from Arthur Brooks who I love and I sent it to Beach.

I told him thanks for being my best friend, but. Arthur Brooks talked about how one of the biggest things is finding a spouse who is your best friend, and he listed different things, but one of the things was somebody that can tease you. And I think there is that element of having somebody that is willing to kind of call you out when your head's getting a little bit too big.

That happens for me a lot, so I can relate. Speaking of your four boys, I saw a post on LinkedIn where one of your employees was asking. He was asking for advice on how to explain that he had to work to a toddler and he was like, I hate having to tell my little boy like Daddy has to work. And you commented on the post and you said, I remember leaving for work and hearing 2-year-old Cal say no work daddy.

And it ripped my heart out. But now he's the one heading off to baseball, practice school and other activities. [00:26:00] Being anxiously engaged in a good cause as a kid and as an adult is good. Can you elaborate? I love that idea of being anxiously engaged, not just as an adult, but also as a kid. Can you elaborate on why you think that that's an important thing for your kids to see and an act?

Yeah. Yeah. I think this has been something that we, we talk, Carly and I talk about all the time is how do we get our kids to. To pursue excellence in their different areas, whether that's school or sports. And, and it starts with us and I, you know, my, my dad, I think the, his number one fear was raising an entitled kid.

So we had all sorts of different jobs growing up and, and we were mowing everyone's lawn and we were doing all sorts of different things. And I think what I took from it is that every time I was doing it, especially when I was learning, he was with us, he was doing it too. It wasn't like, Hey, you guys need to work hard and I'm gonna sit here because I've made it.

And you know, it was, I'm gonna be in the weeds with you. And so I think. With our kids. A lot of it is, you know, showing them that we work hard, but also helping them work hard. And for us, a lot of that has come through sports where we get the chance to, uh, communicate to them in a language they understand because they don't, trying to communicate how to work hard and reading for my 7-year-old who loves baseball is not gonna resonate in the same way.

But, you know, we, we've been able to teach them so many important life lessons about working hard. Like, you know, they, when kids learn how to play basketball and you say, all right, you wanna go practice? And they're like, oh, I already know how to play basketball. They go, well, don't you know that the best players in the world practice every day?

And they're like, oh, that's kind of, that's interesting. You know? So now I, now I know I need to practice. And then when it rains the first time and you say, Hey guys, rain makes us better. And they're like, okay. Yeah. So now when it rains, it's like rain makes us better. Gotta go out and play in the rain. Yeah, go play in the rain, don't complain about the rain.

Let's figure out how to make it, make it better. Or, Hey guys, we're down. We never give up, right? We never give up. Or hey, there's a chance to pick up your teammate who's sad And, and so I think. For us, I think being anxiously engaged I is so important and I think it's important how you, how you do it to teach them the lessons that you're trying to teach them because I [00:28:00] don't, I don't care if they're a college athlete or even if they're high school or you know, whatever.

I care that they're good missionaries, that they're good husbands, good fathers, good people, and, and so I want them to be busy in order to, to be that. Yeah. I love that as a sports junkie myself, I am chomping at the bit for when Emma's old enough to play a sport. It's partially because she keeps biting people and I've decided that we need some outlet for the aggression.

How would you say that your membership in the church, and I guess to me there are so many things that we. Take for granted as members of the church that help us develop leadership skills. So how would you say that your experience within the church influences the way you lead as A CEO? Yeah, I think a couple ways.

I think for one, I'm very comfortable. When you f when you first start a company, you have to deal with a lot of people thinking you're crazy. Probably even now, there's lots of people that don't think that what we're doing is interesting or whatever. Turns out knocking doors in a hundred degree weather in Brazil in a suit is also something that people think is crazy.

So, you know, when an investor is like, doesn't believe in us, trust me, I've been laughed at for a lot worse than this. And I think that my, my membership and, and just my comfortableness being a believer, uh, I think that's, that's, that's kind of. There's, I don't have all the answers to everything, but I feel comfortable being someone that believes, and I think that that is as, that's how I lead.

I don't have the answers to everything, all the problems are gonna face as a company, but I am comfortable knowing that, I believe, and I think it comes from knowing where your conviction should come from, which is for building a company. It's come from your customers, not the noise outside. For our faith, it should be.

Savior and our relationship with him, not from the internet or all the other noise outside. So I think it's, it's knowing where the source of conviction should come from. And I think the second big thing that, that it's, I think it's helped me want to find that balance of challenging [00:30:00] people to be better and also being kind and compassionate.

I had a experience yesterday where a high performer on my team who came, asked me if I had a few minutes to chat at 5:00 PM on a Friday, and I wondered what it was. And he said, Hey, this week you, I, I had kind of called him out. I had told him that he needed to be better in this specific way, and it was, it wasn't just directed to him, it was directed at the team.

And he said, I just wanted to let you know that I loved that and I appreciated that. And I can be better and I want to be better and I know it will never, I just want you to know that it'll never land in the wrong way because I know that you care about me and that that's your job. And I, and I was, I, I was like, thank you for reacting that way.

'cause I came home and told Carly that. I was like, I might've been too mean. I feel bad about this. And, and so I think that that comes from. You know, caring about these people, it's, it's, it's a lot easier to just care and not demand excellence or, you know, demand excellence and not care. And I think that, that, that balance is something I really care about as a CEO.

Yeah. Well, John, it has been so fun to talk to you and to learn so much more about your experiences and also to hear your testimony. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. My last question for you is the question that we ask at the end of every episode of this podcast, and that is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Yeah. I love this question. We actually asked all, all of our boys yesterday this, this question and, and it was fun to hear their answers. I, to me, being all in is, is recognizing that you are part of a team and being a good teammate is, is being someone that. Is committed, is willing to challenge you to be better as an organization is willing to sacrifice when it needs to be sacrificed, is willing to align yourself with the team when God asks you to do something that you don't want to do or says it's your time.

And, and so I, I think being all in to me is, is, is being a good teammate. I love that. [00:32:00] Thank you so much.

We are so grateful to John Koelliker for joining us on another s. Special episode of All In. Big Thanks to the Utah area YSA conference for their invitation to attend and to record live. It was so fun and big thanks also to Derrick Campbell of Mix at six studios for his help in the post-production of this episode.

We are so grateful to you for listening, and we'll look forward to being with you again next week.