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[00:00:00] Mike Maughan and I have recorded this interview in early September prior to President Russell and Nelson's passing on September 27th, 2025. As I went back to edit the episode, I was reminded of a small portion of this conversation in which Mike and I discussed President Nelson's extending certain invitations to us as members of the church.
I felt so grateful that we had one last chance to honor our dear prophet. But as I continued to edit, I found it interesting that I think President Nelson embodied the idea that Mike discusses throughout this episode about our being the welcoming committee for Christ. He invited all of us to participate in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and by doing so, president Nelson welcomed us as part of the body of Christ.
The music and the spoken word broadcast following President Nelson's passing said, president Nelson met with kings and presidents, queens and princesses, but he also knew and loved the common person. He was their friend. In quote, it is my hope that Mike's thoughts in this episode will inspire us. To follow President Nelson's example and be a friend to all.
Mike Maughan is president of the Chairman's office at Qualtrics and a partner at Smith Entertainment Group, the parent company of the NBA's, Utah Jazz, among many other sports and entertainment related properties. Mike co-founded five for the Fight, a global foundation, raising funds for cancer research, and also serves as president of the Utah Jazz Foundation.
He also co-host a podcast called No Stupid Questions with author and Professor Angela Duckworth. Mike received his bachelor's degree from BYU, earned an MBA at Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management and an MPA at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is. Aspiring [00:02:00] surfer, an average cyclist, and a decent hiker.
This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am honored to have Mike Ma on the line with me today. Mike, welcome. Thank you, Morgan. So good to be with you. Well, I. Am a big Mike Mon fan and I am looking forward to learning more about you and from you, Mike.
But I wanna start out with something that you said changed your life more than anything you've ever heard, and that is something that was said by Elder Blake Ronney, who is a former area Authority 70, and now president of the Provost City Center Temple. He said, we are not the gatekeepers, we are the welcoming committee.
You recently, Mike served in a YSA Bishop Rick, is that right? It's true, yes, I did. Okay, so talk to me a little bit about what this, this quote means to you and why did hearing it change your life? First of all, let me just say I love Elder Ron, and so anything from him, I, I appreciate this idea that we are not the gatekeepers, we're the welcoming committee, I think is so powerful because our opportunity, our responsibility, but, but mostly our blessing is to be the welcoming committee for Christ.
To welcome people to him. Uh, I, I think of Sister Annette Dennis, who in her October, 2022 General Conference talk said, we're commanded to love others, not to judge them. She said, let's lay down that heavy burden of judgment. It isn't ours to carry. Instead, we can pick up the Savior's joke of love and compassion.
And I think as we focus on, on Christ and being the welcoming Committee, a lot of the things [00:04:00] that, that maybe stop us from loving other people. Or, or make us wonder like, is it okay to welcome them into our congregation if they smell like smoke or they dress differently than we do, or, or maybe their hair is a different color or whatever that is.
Our, our job is to be the welcoming committee for Christ. We're not the gatekeepers. Uh, second Nephi nine makes it very clear. It says The holy one of Israel is the keeper of the gate, and he employs no servant there. I love this idea that it's not our, our burden to bear. Is the keeper of the gate, and you know.
When we think about our lives and, and how we go through them, sometimes you have a new convert who maybe is, is tied to the missionaries who taught them a little more than they are to, to Christ or to the gospel or the church, right? And we wanna make sure that our foundation is in, is in Jesus Christ. Or maybe we love our, our young men, a young women's leader, or we love this bishop or stake president or, or we really connect.
With, with the prophet, but our, our testimony, our lives can't be tied to some teacher or leader. 'cause all those things change, but the one constant that doesn't is, is Jesus Christ. Now, to be clear, like, uh, state presidents, bishops of course, have a role as judges in Israel and no one's suggesting otherwise.
As a judge in Israel, the bishop serves a clear role in helping us along the repentance process when, when necessary. But at the end of the day. The gatekeeper, our bishop will not be the gatekeeper. The stake president is not the gatekeeper. Even the prophet President Nelson won't be the gatekeeper. The scriptures are very clear that Christ alone is the keeper of the gate, and he employs no servant there.
So a. When I think about our lives and our opportunity, it, it frees us like Sister Dennis talked about, uh, from the General Reef Society presidency, it frees us from the heavy burden of judgment. And it, it says that in our congregations, in our neighborhoods, in our [00:06:00] families, our opportunity is to be a conveyor of the love of Christ and help people feel that love because it's not our job to be the gatekeeper.
It's our job to be the welcoming committee for Christ, and I think that that's incredible. In Second Nephi, uh, 26, I've always loved the scripture where it says that Christ invites all to come unto him and he doesn't deny anyone, but he says he invites everyone to participate in his goodness. And he denies none that come under him.
And Nephi lists black and white bond and free male and female. And I, I love to always add to that. Married and single parent and childless believer and unbeliever, doubter and dogmatic, gay and straight, converted, confused, strong, weak, old, young, introvert, extrovert. The list could go on forever, right?
Right. He invites all to come unto him because all are alike unto God. And, and that's what I think is so beautiful. I think at different points in my life, I've maybe been a little too hesitant and too stingy with my love and a little too forward with my judgment. And when I heard Elder Ron's quote here and, and heard him talk about we're not the gatekeepers, were the welcoming committee, I felt like it freed me up in a way that I, I should have learned before, but didn't.
About what it means to love with Christ's love, to welcome with Christ welcome, and to be that, that person that can help people come under Christ and in the process come myself. Yeah. I think that that approach is so refreshing and, and it does, like you said, it takes a burden off of us and, and how much happier would we all be if we just focused on.
Welcoming versus feeling like we're, we have some other responsibility. Mike, you spend a lot of time with young single adults in the church. Like I said, you were in a YSA, Bishop Rick, [00:08:00] you taught a class at BYU for many years. What, what do you feel like, or how, how would you say that that experience has.
Changed you and been transformative for you, and what have you learned from spending so much time with that particular demographic? Yeah. Look, I will say I have never been more optimistic about the church of Jesus Christ or the gospel of Jesus Christ than, than when serving among the young single adults or, or teaching at BYU and being around, uh, that age demographic.
They are so hungry for the gospel. They are good. They're kind. They're eager to live the gospel, to minister to others, to share goodness, to serve in their callings, to contribute to this cause of Christ. And, uh, I love learning from them. They are at the point where they're not cynical. They're not. You know, angry.
They're not what, they're just, uh, eager and they're, they're beacons of light. I, I think of an experience and I, I wanna be careful naming who, but, uh, in the course of my job, I often am interacting with, with, uh, different, uh, church leaders, including often with members of the quorum of the 12. And one time I was hosting a member of the quorum of the 12 at, at an activity, at an event.
He knew I was serving in a YSA bishop Rick, and had invited me to several things he's done with Ysa, but we had several hours, uh, together. And so I took advantage of the opportunity to ask him questions and, and I asked him, I said, what worries you most about the young single adults of the church? And he paused for a minute and then with a smile on his face, looked at me and said, Mike, I don't worry about them.
I'm very optimistic about the young people of the church and he continued to share his faith in them, hope in them, optimism for them, uh, and how they'll build the kingdom. And then he paused for a minute and looked over at me again and said, but sometimes I worry about their parents. And he didn't expound and I didn't ask.
But, but I will say [00:10:00] this, when I think of the ysa, I have never been, like I said, more optimistic about the church. But sometimes I worry about their leaders and, and what I mean by that is that I, I think sometimes we have leaders who approach the youth and the young, single adults with some level of, of suspicion or feel the need to crack the, the whip or, or slam down the hammer on them.
I, I've seen too often, uh, you know, people who, who may be like doctrine and covenants, if you have a dismal view of the youth. DNC 1 31 talks about the sad experience, that it's the nature and disposition of almost all people as soon as they get a little authority to exercise. Unrighteous Dominion and I, I've served with people like that.
Unfortunately, I fear that maybe in times in the past I've, I've. Been too dumb and inexperienced and maybe been a little less than even I had hoped about myself, but I, I, I wanna say this, that I think is really important, having seen how people interact with the youth, you're, you're probably familiar with the apocryphal story of, well, I think apocryphal of Socrates.
I have no way to verify it. But someone came to him and and said, Hey, I, I want to learn. I want to seek wisdom. And so Socrates takes this young man to a body of water and pushes his head underwater, and he holds the, the guy's head underwater until he can hardly breathe. He's gasping for breath. And finally, Socrates lifts his head up and, and he says to the man, what did you most desire when you were underwater?
And he said, air. And Socrates said, when you want wisdom as much as you wanted air, you will find it. I, I worry that sometimes as leaders, that's how we treat the YSA with repentance. When you want Christ as much as you want it air, then you're ready for Christ, and, and that's not what I believe. That's not what I've seen.
In fact, I love this quote from Joseph Smith more than almost any other. He said, nothing is [00:12:00] so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin. As to take them by the hand and watch over them with tenderness. Now, when I think of taking someone by the hand, I mean, we live in a society, uh, here in the United States where people hug a lot, right?
You hug when you say hello. You hug when you say goodbye. There are many cultures where you do the kiss on the cheek on either side. It's much less common to hold hands. In most cultures. Mm-hmm. And when you think about who you hold hands with, it, it's maybe a spouse or partner, a parent, a child, a niece or nephew.
But there are very few people with with whom you hold hands. It's a rather intimate experience. And so when I think of Joseph Smith saying nothing is so much calculated to lead people, to forsake sin as to take them by the hand. Watch over them with tenderness. That's what I think is so beautiful about how we interact or, or should interact with the young people of the church, with the Y of the church.
They want Christ. They want to come unto him. And I think when we, when we remind ourselves that, that it is a mutual journey back to Christ, that all have sinned and fallen, fallen short of the glory of God, uh, we, we see a different way to approach, uh, the young, single adults a different way to approach with, with great love.
And so when I think of this, this member of the Quorum of twelves, that sometimes I worry about their parents, I, I sometimes worry about the leaders. And, and I think that we as leaders of YSA and the youth, I, I hope will approach it with more faith in them, with more honor to them because, uh, overall they're amazing.
Uh, and Elder Kieran gave that beautiful conference talk where he talked about that policeman who sometimes took delight in turning people around. And he, he said that God has this fabulous plan and that he wants all of us to choose to return to him, that he's in relentless pursuit of us. I hope we can approach people and [00:14:00] repentance in the youth with that kind of idea that we're in relentless pursuit of them, that there is joy and rejoicing and goodness ahead because I will say in all of my service in the church, I have never been more optimistic.
When I look at the youth and, and the young single adults and the kind of people that they are. I love that and I appreciate it. I probably have shared this before on this podcast, Mike, but when I was in YSA, I was in a Stake Relief society presidency, and we would go around to the different wards and uh, do like a q and A for ward conference.
And so it was like a panel and sometimes they'd invite like the Bishop, Rick and their wives to participate and this one woman. A guy asked a question, said like, I have been trying to date. It's not going like, it's not bearing any fruit, nothing is coming of it. What do I need to do differently? And this woman who I'm sure was well intentioned.
Bishop brick member's wife started going off about what people do wrong in dating. And I sat there and I was a YSA, and so my blood is just like boiling. Mm-hmm. And I waited until she was done, and then I raised my hand. I said, if I'm hearing you correctly, as like the question that you're actually asking is, what am I doing wrong?
What is wrong with me? Mm-hmm. And I was like, answer is nothing is wrong with you and you're not doing anything wrong. And I think sometimes that's the thing that's so hard for me. And the thing that, that. It was hard for me when I was A YSA. It's hard for me now with friends that are still in the YSA is is I think that sometimes there's this misperception of something is wrong with me and that's why [00:16:00] I'm in this situation, and I just firmly reject that.
And I think that if we could help, I think it's part that's part of that welcoming, whether it's in a single adult ward or in a family ward. Neighborhood Ward is like. There's nothing wrong with you. You're just as much a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as anyone else. Just because you aren't married doesn't, doesn't diminish that in any way, shape or form, and I'm gonna treat you like a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not a single adult with that label attached.
I think there are so many, I will say so many incredible leaders and and incredible people, and I do think that's so amazing that we have the opportunity to serve and, and I hope that you know it. We talk about the last supper and Lord, is it I, and I think it's really helpful to remember that all have sinned and all have fallen short, right?
Yeah. That we're on a mutual journey back to Christ. I, I've unfortunately seen a few too many bishops of state president or two who, who have this idea that, that the youth are. Just carnal, sensual, and demotion. It's their job to be this, this gatekeeper. And again, judges in Israel serve a very important role, no one's suggesting otherwise.
Uh, I do think like this member of the quorum of the 12, we would be helped to view this with optimism and love. And remember that our job is to love people to Christ and we can't judge them to Christ. Elder Mark Palmer, uh, you may remember, gave one of the most beautiful talks about the rich young man.
And how we, we all know that story, but Elder Palmer talks about how he had just missed a piece of it for a long time and it was, it said, and Jesus beholding him, loved him. And I think, at least in me, I will readily admit that, that there has for too long, again, [00:18:00] before I heard Elder Roni's, we are not the gatekeepers, we are the welcoming committee sometimes, and Mike Mon beholding him, judged him.
And I think sometimes we have this idea, you know, we'd be holding them, judge them. Why are you not married? Something must be wrong with you, right? Or, or you did. Sin is something wrong with you? No. We all make mistakes that doesn't excuse the mistake, but our job is to take them by the hand and watch over them with tenderness.
Not to say, as soon as you want to repent as much as you want air, then Jesus is ready to talk to you. That's not how it works. Christ is. Always ready to talk to you. Right? And so I love, I love how Elder Palmer reminded us, and Jesus beholding him when we really see each other. When Jesus beholding him, loved him, and I hope we'll do that instead of, and behold them, judged them.
Yeah, spot on. What, let's talk a little bit about application, Mike. What are some of the specific things that you all did in your YSA Bishop Rick, to try to create this welcoming culture that was focused on, on extending to people the love of Christ. Look, I feel so blessed to have served with an amazing bishop and, and amazing other counselors in this Bishop Rick, and to have had, um, other incredible mentors who, who gave us a lot of these ideas.
I don't claim any of them came from us, but I will just say our ward in our stake was, was blessed to have the highest attendance of any ward the most. People attending second hour, the highest rates of ministering, most prospective elders, advancing in the priesthood, on and on, and nothing, none of it had anything to do with the, the bishop, Rick, right?
It was these amazing young, single adults. But I, I will say every single week from the pulpit, we repeated our theme. We are not the gatekeepers, we're the welcoming committee. And every week we, we communicated our goal, which was we want to be the most welcoming ward in the church. [00:20:00] That's obviously not a competitive statement.
Uh, and it's silly to, to act like it is, but we wanna be the most welcoming ward in the church. That's something we're all striving for, and, and so we did a few things. We did name tags every single Sunday. Now, whether you're in a YSA ward or a family ward, I think we'd be surprised how many people don't know each other, whether it's a more transient ward or a more stable one.
As people get older, there are different demographics in the ward. People don't always know each other, so we had name tags every Sunday. It made it very easy to approach new people, to get to know each other, to foster that, that brotherhood and sisterhood. We talk about being ward family, but so often we, we forget what a family is and you have to at least know each other, right?
So name tags every single Sunday. We did introductions at the end of sacrament meeting every week. So we finished sacrament meeting, closing prayer, uh, closing ham, closing prayer. We asked everyone to stay in the chapel and then they would stand up. Now, if you think in a, in a traditional ward, you, you break to young men, young women's to priesthood relief society, and you only meet whoever's in your group.
We had everyone stand up who was new or visiting at the end of the sacrament meeting, uh, every single week so that everyone had an opportunity to see who was there and could, could perform that. Welcome. We invited every people, every, uh, we invited everybody at the end of each week to meet two people they haven't met before.
Now what that did is sometimes it's hard to go approach someone new, but when you say over the pulpit, go meet two people. Well, two people is not an insurmountable number. Right. I feel like I can go do that and sometimes it's awkward to be like, hi, my name's Mike. My name's Morgan. But if you give me the permission that everyone has to do that or is invited to do that, then people much more naturally can just say, hi, I am, I'm Morgan, without feeling awkward.
Plus, everyone's got a name tag on right. And if you think about it, what, what's beautiful to me about all of these things is, is we're commanded in scripture to, to strengthen the feeble knees, to mourn with those [00:22:00] that mourn, to comfort, those who stand in need of comfort. But if we don't know each other.
How can I strengthen if I don't know whose knees are weak? How can I comfort if I don't know who mourns? How can I be there for people if we don't know what they're going through? And it all starts with this kind of familial nature. And so that's why those things were so important to us is, is to begin that because suddenly you can start saying hi to the stranger next to you, and now you're not strangers.
Another thing we did every, every week, we only had five minute talks. We never went more than five minutes. There's a lot more punch and power to what you can do in five minutes. Nobody gets to ramble when it's a five minute talk. It allowed us to, to have a lot more people speak and more frequently people can get to know each other better.
That way it also gave people more opportunity to, to teach and testify more frequently. Some of my favorite ideas though, came, came from one of my great mentors in the church who came and said, why don't you try one minute testimonies? Now, you don't do that every fast and testimony meeting, but once in a while we would stand up and say, Hey, today we want to give people an opportunity and invite everyone to just bear a one minute testimony.
We sometimes would have 30 members come and share a testimony in one fast and testimony meeting. So one, not only does it invite a ton more people to teach and testify, but two, there are some people who just really want to get up or, or, or want to testify, but maybe are intimidated by having to, they think say more.
But when you give them permission to just do one minute. So many people who hadn't served that pulpit in a long, long time felt comfortable coming up and bearing witness of Christ. Another thing similar to that that we would sometimes do is we'd invite people to, to spend one minute talking about a favorite hymn, and then pick one verse, and then we'd sing it as a congregation.
Now, thankfully, we were blessed with incredible organists. So we had the ability to do [00:24:00] that. Sometimes we would assign that in advance, and sometimes on a, a regular Sunday we would treat it like fast and testimony meeting and that it was open mic and we would just invite anyone to come up and, and often you would get 20, 25 different members of the ward who would come share a one minute testimony about a hymn, and then you'd sing one verse.
And those were some of our most incredible and spiritual meetings because again, it's about. Involvement. It's about giving people the opportunity to witness of Christ. And when you give more of those opportunities, it changes the culture of the word. It changes the way people connect with each other. It changes how people understand one another.
It changes the vulnerability with which they approach each other. These were incredibly beautiful things. Now, maybe more unique to A YSA award after second hour and every single Sunday we had some food or meal. Uh, so a break the fast, a munch and mingle. We had something we called family dinner that we did once a month where we'd bring in a, a new convert or a senior missionary couple, or recently returned missionary who spend.
Just three minutes bearing testimony, eat, and people would have the opportunity to mingle and, and get to know one another better. So there were all those things, but it became a, a beautiful place of, of a genuine family. And because we had this very clear mantra. We are not the gatekeepers, we're the welcoming committee with the common goal of, of we wanna be the most welcoming ward in the church.
People loved each other into goodness and, and loved each other in such a way that, that they did stay for church, that they did attend the temple, that they did do their ministering. And you know what we didn't do? Get on them about their ministering all the time. You don't have to lecture people. If you show them how beautiful it is, they, they come do it with joy.
So interesting. Well, those are so many good ideas and I think very easily applied for those listening, so I love [00:26:00] that, that they're all very actionable. You have shared, Mike, that you consider the late Pope Francis to be one of the truest Christian leaders you've ever observed, and you recently even went to Rome to visit his grave.
What is it about Pope Francis that inspired you so much? I, I love Pope Francis. I'm so glad we got to talk about him. He took his name from, from St. Francis of Assisi, who I think is most, most famous for the line, preached the gospel all the time if necessary. Use words. I mean, what a beautiful sentiment, uh, about preaching the gospel by our every word and action.
How we treat people, how we, how we just are, who we have become. Uh, so I, I've always loved St. Francis of Assisi and loved, uh, Pope Francis. I, I will say one of the things I most inspired by about him. Is is if you'll remember when Jesus is is eating at Levi's house, he's with tax collectors, he's with sinners.
He's surrounding himself with kind of undesirable people, so to speak, and he is there and all these people follow him and the Pharisees come and they see Jesus eating with people like this and they say, what is he doing? Eating with tax collectors and sinners? You are judged by the company you keep.
That's what I was taught as a kid, right. And here is Christ with a bunch of undesirables and in, in that sense, I love that, that Pope Francis constantly did stuff like that. There's a, a ritual within Catholicism of the washing of the feet that is, is done to commemorate sort of the last supper. And Pope Francis was the first to, to invite women and non-Christians, including Muslim inmates, for example, to, to come to this and he would wash their feet.
Some traditional, uh, Catholics. Thought this was a disrespectful break from tradition. Others viewed it as this amazing act of compassion for the marginalized, [00:28:00] and, and that's kind of how he did it. He conducted foot washing rituals in juvenile prisons and refugee centers and other places like that. He, he held a series of group meetings with transgender individuals, um, where he got together with, with L-G-B-T-Q advocacy groups and stuff like that.
Now, the lines that I love most about him. Is that he didn't change the lyrics, but he changed the tune of the Catholic Church. Hmm. So if you think about it, he didn't, he didn't change the doctrine. He didn't change, uh, how women could serve. He didn't change L-G-B-T-Q. He didn't do any of that. Right. But what he did do is he changed the tune.
And there are people who say, wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. Christ can't, can't eat dinner with sinners. He can't hang out with people like that. And Pope Francis, and you know, again, some Catholic traditionalists were offended that he was doing these things. And Pope Francis said, look, I'm not changing the doctrine right now.
Don't get mad at me. I'm not changing the lyrics, but I am gonna change the tune of how we do this. And I think it is so beautiful. You, you and everyone listening is familiar with the old adage. If tomorrow you were arrested and accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
With Pope Francis, I think there is enough evidence to convict him because he was willing to go out there and just love and, and I think sometimes we live in a world where, where with social media and how people can, you know, people love the. Just to be outraged all the time and we're, we're worried about appearance and we're worried about who we're with and well, what, what will they think if I'm seen with so and so or in such and such a place?
But, but that wasn't what worried Christ, right? He was there with the equivalent of today's drug dealers and prostitutes and uncomfortable kids and atheists and whatever that is. But that's who we sat down with. That's who we ate with. And I think if we would approach life that way a little bit more, worry a little [00:30:00] bit less about what people think.
We're not, we're not changing the, the lyrics, but we're changing the tune and turning it to a tune of love. Where, where our job is to love, to welcome, to gather. You know, as we've already talked about, all are a likened to God. He invites all to come unto him. We can do the same thing. And, and I hope that, that in my life I can, I can, uh, have the, the tune of, of love.
So well said. I am listening right now to Amy Coney Barrett's book, listening to the Law, and she told, tells the story in a chapter about how the different Supreme Court justices work together. She tells the story about how Justice Scalia was in a. Some sort of religious building in, in an inner city. And a woman came up to him with sores all over her body.
Mm-hmm. And she said, you know, normally that's the kind of person that people would try to get away from. The woman approached Justice Scalia and he just wrapped his arms around her. And I think about, you know, how would I respond in that situation? To your point, like, would there be enough evidence to convict me?
In in situations like that. Am I a Christian in Word? And indeed. And I think that that those examples of Pope Francis and, and I think those, those examples are all around us. Especially I think sometimes we forget to look outside of our church and to look at at examples of other people of other faiths.
Um, Mike, you have shared some principles in the past that have guided your career and one that stood out to me was never burn a bridge and always be kind. I think that principle of never burning a bridge is so, so important, and it's often easier in retrospect. It's like, oh, I'm glad I didn't burn that bridge, but how, how have you [00:32:00] personally seen the importance of having positive interactions with others through consistent kindness?
Morgan, let me, before I even answer this, let me be very clear about all of this, that these are all lessons I'm trying to learn. Same, right? I, I feel far too often I'm, I, I don't wanna act like I'm good at all these things or any of these things. These are lessons I'm trying to learn. These are, are people I admire and, and trying to grow from, but, but wanna be very clear, I'm not, I'm not there.
Look, when it comes to, to never burn a bridge and, and always be kind. Life is, is long and the world is small and you will run into people always back and forth, up and down, right and left and, and I think that it never behooves us to burn a bridge. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't some relationships or some situations.
That deserve boundaries, right? I'm not, I'm not suggesting that otherwise, but I do think that overall we will always benefit from kindness. We will always benefit from being the kind of people who are good to work with. I, I always tell our students at BYUI don't remember anything really from my undergrad classes.
I don't really remember anything from my grad school classes. So as much as those were important to me and as transformative as those experiences were. I can't tell you what I learned in, in Econ one 10 or in finance or what, whatever those are, right? I, I say, look, you're likely not gonna remember anything, but if you remember anything, I want you to remember five words, work hard and be kind, work hard, and be kind.
Uh, I got that from Conan O'Brien's last night when he was fired from the Tonight Show and gave a beautiful monologue about. Working hard and being kind and amazing things will happen. And, and I think that when you, when you look at life, people want to help people who are kind to others, who are helpful to others.
There's the old adage, I, I'm not from the country, I'm not from a farm, but they say you can shear a sheep a [00:34:00] thousand times, but you can only skin it once, right? And, and you want to find these opportunities to be kind to each other, to help each other. I will say I'm, I'm in a position professionally and whatnot where most people are always nice to me.
I don't judge people by whether they're nice to me, but I look at are they kind to, others do, are they the kind of people who, who are kind to the, to the wait staff, to the custodial workers, et cetera? I wanna work with, with good people, and I think that in, in life we're never well served by anger. We're never well served by burning a bridge, and you will always come across someone once again, or someone who knows them, or they'll do a reference call or whatever.
Our reputation always precedes us, and again, I've definitely not been perfect at this, but I've always been grateful when I've responded with a, a little more love, a little more forgiveness, a little more patience than, than maybe I thought a situation may have warranted at the time. I completely agree with that.
I, uh, do you know Scott O'Neill? Mike? I do. Scott's wonderful. Okay. So Scott, he came to mind as you were talking about paying attention to the way that people treat people. I've watched him multiple times go around the Sixers Arena when he was there and he knew everyone. And he treated everybody like they were the most important person in the building.
And that really made an impact on me. I was like, I wanna be that kind of person. I wanna be the kind of person that knows everybody and I wanna treat 'em all the same way. And I think that that's awesome. Mike, you have spent so much of your career focused on experiences. You were instrumental in building the tech company, Qualtrics, which created the experience management industry.
Now you work in sports and entertainment. You're at the forefront of creating best in class experiences for players, fans, and communities. [00:36:00] And as jazz fans, we are grateful for you. What have you learned about creating amazing experiences in your professional life that you apply to your spiritual life?
Life is all about experiences. My grandfather used to tell, uh, a story about these two families that would boat together all summer. And then in the winter, uh, one of the families would, would go skiing. And as they were pulling out the boat one year, um, the one father was lamenting to the other, oh, this is such a great experience for our family.
We get together, we spend all this time together. And, uh, he said, I, I, I'm sad to see it end and, and now we won't have it till next summer. And the, the, the other father said to him, you know, you should go on a winter ski trip like we do. And this dad said, well, I, I don't know that we can do it. He said, let me tell you a story.
For years we have been saving up to remodel our bathroom. He said, we have one of those old bathtubs, like with the claw feet. It's, it's kind of gross. The tiles, you know, out of date, the whatever he said. And every year we take the money we've saved up to remodel the bathroom. And we go skiing. And he said, now our oldest son is in the military and he is riding home.
And he writes back about how, how great those memories are, how much he loves the experience of boat and skiing with a family. And he said, this is my favorite line. He said, I can't imagine him riding home and saying, gee dad, we sure have a swell bathroom. And it, it's this idea that life is about experiences.
Right? That's true in our, in our personal and professional lives. It's true in our spiritual lives. I love the book Dune by Frank Herbert, and, and he has a line in there that changed how I think about the gospel of Jesus Christ. We talk about the mysteries of godliness, right? And I think all my life I kept thinking like there's gonna be some [00:38:00] grand revelation, there's gonna be new knowledge, there's gonna be some.
Idea that I haven't comprehended before. And in, in Dune, uh, Herbert writes this one line, he said, line, he says, the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. And, and I thought maybe, maybe the mysteries of God that will be revealed to us are not some new knowledge. But the mysteries of God are the experiences we have with God, the experiences we have as we learn and grow and develop.
And, and I look, I love the scriptures. Uh, I, uh, think most of us, certainly I could spend more time there, but the goal is not simply to study the words of Christ. It's to live them. It's to be inspired to action by them. And if our experience with Christianity is just reading it, then we're doing it wrong.
Right. The goal is to be out there. I, I will say that I, I hesitate sometimes when I'm in church and there's a, a tendency to, to think back on a comment and say, oh, on my mission. Or when I was in college. If, if we're living right in terms of experiences, we should be able to speak in the present tense, right?
Not 25 years ago. That's okay. Those are great experiences. We're so glad we have them. They're a foundational thing, but it, it's how do we speak in the, in the present tense and what is the experience we have? And, and again, that's why this idea about experience in, I'm just applying the spiritual life part.
I guess I could talk about, uh, how to do it in sports. But how do we do that? Well, my favorite thing, the, and I could be wrong, some Arian is gonna write into you and tell you that I'm wrong. The only place I'm familiar that I can think of where Christ himself speaks of the day of judgment is when he separates the sheep and the goats and this group is going to heaven and this group is going to hell.
And it's not like they sit around in the group and look and say, oh yeah, this makes sense. We're all good [00:40:00] people or Oh yeah, we're bad people, right? They're just there and, and, and he says, uh, you're all going to heaven basically, and the group going to heaven. The sheep are kind of like, well, why? It's not a pat on the back moment.
It's not a, yeah, we, we did good things. And then he says, basically, when I was hungry, you gave me something to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink when I was a stranger. You took me in when I was naked, you clothed me. And even then, the group who is the sheep, they do not say, oh, of course.
Yeah. We were great people. We helped all the time. No, they look at Christ and they say, I thank you so much for thinking of me. Uh, I'm paraphrasing, obviously. Uh, but, but I think you have the wrong person. I, I didn't ever actually feed you. That's when he says, when you did it to the least of them, you did it to me.
Same thing with the goats, right? He goes through the same thing When I was hungry, you didn't give me anything to eat. When I was searching, you didn't gimme anything to drink. And these guys say, wait a minute, buddy, I don't even know you. And he says, well, when you didn't do it to the least of these, you didn't do it to me.
Here's what's fascinating, and again, this is not, Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it at the day of judgment when Christ himself speaks of it. He doesn't mention a single sin of commission. He doesn't ask you if you drank coffee or if you didn't attend your meetings or if you were behind on child support payments.
I'm not saying you should. You have permission to do any of those things. Obviously I'm not pretending that at all. But what he does do in that moment is he focuses on action, on the experience of being a Christian. The experience of of clothing, the Naked. I grew up thinking like, oh, visit those in prison, and I'm like, I don't really know anyone in prison.
I guess I, I guess that doesn't apply to me. I now realize there are so many people imprisoned by loneliness. Imprisoned by fear, imprisoned by addiction, imprisoned by whatever that thing is. There's so many [00:42:00] people we can go visit, right? And, and that is, I think the beauty, beauty of experiences is how do we live the gospel in the present tense?
So we have something to talk about today because we're living pure Christianity. I think, Mike, that that is what President Nelson is so good at. I think he has taught us, uh, a masterclass on leadership simply by inviting us to do, instead of just to listen. And all this stuff on being a peacemaker, I mean, what has been more needed than that message and action?
Yeah, I should say the action required. I, I, I love that you're bringing this up. Well, and I, I think not only so he does it, he. He leads by example, by doing the thing that he invites us to do. But then he invites us to, to do something. And I think that that is, that's what we read in the scriptures. You know, experiment upon the word, it's, it's not an invitation to just believe.
Blindly. Instead, it's try it out, see if it works for you. If it doesn't, fine. But I think that God has so much confidence in the promises that he's making to us that he says. Try it out. And when we try it, we see that it's transformative. And I think that's why I just was thinking yesterday because of President Nelson's birthday, I was thinking about how many people, Mike, I've interviewed on the show that have talked about how something President Nelson has invited them to do, has changed their lives.
And so. I think because he has invited us to do, instead of just to sit in general conference and listen to what he has to say and then go home and forget about it. Um, it's been, I think, transformative, uh, to Latter Day Saints. And so I love that idea of experience [00:44:00] and I'm gonna be thinking about what you said for a while about how I can better apply that, Mike, I know simply from observing.
A friendship that you have with a dear mutual friend of ours that you or someone that deeply values friendship and invest time into friendship. Why would you say that friends have been so important in your life? I. Josh, we have one shot at this life. You might as well ride through it with wonderful people.
Right. I will just say I have been so richly blessed by some of the most incredible friends in the world. I think that friendship is, is so valuable because it is honestly where the gospel hits brass attacks in a lot of ways. I think sometimes we think we have to do some grand or important gesture. The, the mutual friend that you're talking about has a quiver full of children.
She has a, a very busy life. She's dealing with her own health issues, and when I was moving recently, she showed up at my porch at my door, so I had hired movers. I was fine. She showed up at my porch and said, how can I help? And I thought, you have seven kids, you have some serious health issues, you are busy as can be.
And uh, she was one of two people who just showed up and said, I'm here. Yeah. And what a beautiful message of, of just kindness. I didn't need her help. What I did need was her love. I I was benefited 'cause someone was thinking of me. One of my dearest friends in all the world, my childhood best friend, father of eight, wonderful, very healthy doctor, just passed away two weeks ago.
No one knows why autopsy came back inconclusive, but I was going back through all of our old text messages and I, I found one where he had his eighth baby and he just lived [00:46:00] in, in Minnesota, a doctor at the Mayo Clinic, and he, he just said, do you want to come out to the blessing of our baby? And I thought, what a, what a beautiful invitation.
A friendship, and I love my siblings. They're amazing. I've found the blessing of my nieces and nephews if we're in the same city. I've not flown halfway across the country for them. But when Nate reached out, it was, it was this inclusivity. It's, you're part of my family. You mean so much to me. Do you, do you wanna come out for this?
When his daughter's opening our mission call, he, he's like, join us on FaceTime. It's those little things that that show people that they matter and that they're noticed. I think that was kind of what I was saying with Elder Palmer. The lesson I learned from him, and Jesus beholding him, loved him. Elder Palmer talks about not just love him, but beholding him, truly seeing each other, and that's I think, what is so beautiful about friendship.
Now, I also love that the savior said, if you only love those who love you. Don't the Republicans do that? Right? Part of friendship is, is loving people that are different than us, that would not naturally be our quote unquote friends. That we're not just like in, in, in, in, in the New Testament Christ is when you host a party just paraphrasing everything right and left here, but when you host a party, if you only invite your friends or if you only invite people who can invite you back, so I know people who host people, you don't come to our home for dinner, and then they're like, well, they never invited me back.
His whole point is like, invite the annoying people, invite the people that don't quite fit in. Invite people that aren't just like you. That's also some of the, the richness of friendship is, is finding people who aren't quote unquote, the natural fit. Uh, and they will add more to our lives than we could ever see when we're willing to go outside our, our normal circle or our traditional group of friends.
Uh, and notice behold other people and, and I think we'll find the richness of our lives, grows exponentially when our friend [00:48:00] group, so to speak, involves people that are very different than we are. Very different than who we would naturally be attracted to. Beautifully said, Mike. One of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the show is because you have actually talked about being all in a lot, which I was like, we got, we gotta have, we gotta have Mike on here because Mike's talking about being all in left and right.
So before we get to, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I wondered what would you say it means to be all in? Outside of a gospel context, and I know this is kind of tough because people use all in all over the place now. Um, but, but I'm just curious for kind of your definition of that.
So I, I will just say at Qualtrics now at Smith Entertainment Group is the, the parent company of the Utah Jazz, Utah, mammoth, et cetera. One of our values has always been all in, so tacos, transparency, all in. Customer or community obsessed, uh, one team in scrappy, but all in's been a big piece of that. I, I think this is, is kind of what we're talking about.
If you're always trying to do a little here and there and everywhere, you can never have the contribution or have the impact. Then if you go all in on something, uh, if you have one foot in, uh, I think Neil, a Maxwell used to talk about one foot in Babylon and one foot in Zion. You're just gonna get split in half.
Right. You've gotta be all in and, and part of living a really interesting and good and productive life is actually giving up on all the other good and impactful and interesting lives you could have led. There are a lot of really talented people who could do a lot of different things, but if you wanna have the contribution that you could have, you have to say no to a lot of good things in order to do one thing really, really well.
And that's okay. It's, it's okay to, to know that you can't be [00:50:00] everything. And so I think when we say we're all in, in a professional setting or what we look at, we, we want to build something to last. We want to do something that is meaningful. We want to have something as part of our, our work that will genuinely change lives for generations to come.
And help people live better and more productive lives here. Well, that means that you've gotta be all in on one thing so that you can really make a difference. And I think that idea of focus, I mean, if you look at the gospel corollary and I single to the glory of God, right? Uh, when you have focus in your, in your personal life, what I don't mean by all in is that I'm gonna be the very best.
Professional and then I'm gonna give up on my faith and my family and my, all these other things. Right? Right. Uh, I don't mean that you're so focused on one thing that you give up all the rest. What I do mean is this all in on scaling every aspect of your life, but it's not being fragmented such that you're not doing anything Well.
I, I think this principle of being all in on what you're building on, the thing you're developing on the, the outcomes you're seeking allows us to live the most fruitful life because we know what to say no to. I love that. Um, you mentioned Elder Maxwell. I was recently asked this question, somebody like turned the tables on me.
What does it mean to me to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? And I referenced a talk by Elder Maxwell, well, it where he talks about the scripture that says, settle these things in your heart. And I think sometimes to your point, even outside of our, our belief in the gospel, we can be so unsettled on what it is that we want and where we are and what we wanna do, that we, we cheat ourselves of the benefit of being truly committed.
Mike, my last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? [00:52:00] First of all, thank you so much for the question. I love hearing people respond to this. I think it's so beautiful. I, the first thing that, that I thought of, I was having a conversation with some friends this weekend, some of whom fit the perfect mold of a member of the church and married young and have kids and Right.
Everything kind of works that way. And others who, who maybe got married, one gentleman got married at 35, unable to have children, et cetera. It was this really interesting conversation about how, how the gospel works for us or doesn't, and what it means to be all in, right? Uh, and the one person whose life had been a little, uh, maybe less traditional, said, I'm not familiar with anyone who has left the church because they felt too welcomed.
To me to be all in on the gospel of Jesus Christ is, is this idea that we are not the gatekeepers, we're the welcoming committee. It's the idea that we don't have to carry the burden of judgment. It's the idea that Jesus beholding him, loved him, that as we are all in on the gospel of Christ, we can behold people, we can see them for who they really are and, and by virtue of that, see ourselves for who we really are.
I. Beloved children of God who, who have a divine potential. And as we, as we behold them and ourselves, that way we can better love, uh, love ourselves for who we are and love others. And to me, to be all in on the gospel of Jesus Christ means to be loved in all things and to love others in all things. I I had a fascinating conversation many years ago with, with someone who was talking about a, a scripture that says that, you know, in the day of judgment, all our sins shall be shouted from the rooftops.
And, uh, and I said, that's terrible. And, and he said, no, I think that's gonna be the most beautiful day of all. And I said, what, what on earth do you mean? First of all, I don't think [00:54:00] that's exactly what the scripture means. I don't think it's gonna like list out everybody's thing, right? Christ. Does your sins be a scarlet?
Remembers them no more, right? They should be white as wool. Um, I don't think that's what it means, but his point was when we finally know what burdens everybody carried, when we finally know what everybody had, we'll be able to love them so completely. And, uh, this might be the weirdest answer to this question you've ever gotten, but I think of a John Legend song where he says, all of me loves all of you.
And I think, uh, all of our trials, all of our struggles, all of our mistakes, all of our foibles, all of our striving, all of our goodness, all of it comes together to make us who we are, to help us be these disciples of Christ, but all of us. Can love all of each other. And that means, uh, as Elder Holland once said, our, our, our anxieties, our pain, all of those things, right?
He can love all of us, can love all of him. And that's what it means to be all in on the gospel of Jesus Christ is to love all of everybody, including the things, the painful parts that made them who they are that make us who we are, that make us. Uh, understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the atonement of Jesus Christ for ourselves and for other people.
And so to me, to sum it all up, we are not the gatekeepers. We are the welcoming committee. Mike, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I've learned so much, and I just appreciate your time more than you know. Thank you so much for having me, Morgan. Always a delight.
We are so grateful to Mike Maughan for joining us on today's episode, and as always, we're grateful to you for listening. Big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at six studios for his help with this episode, and we'll look forward to being with you again next [00:56:00] week.