The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

===

[00:00:00] Heidi Jones's Life was changed forever, 40 years ago when her mother, Kathy Sheets was a victim in the Mark Hoffman bombings. Her mother had nothing to do with Hoffman and yet became collateral damage in Hoffman's, efforts to divert attention away from himself. And his forgeries. Heidi was a young mother at the time and wrestled with bitterness and anger in the years following her mom's passing until she reached a breaking point in which she knew that in order to be truly happy, she had to forgive.

Heidi Jones followed in her mother's footsteps and became a school teacher teaching for 22 years a job, which she calls. The best job in the world. She and her husband, Roger, are the parents of four married children and grandparents to 14 grandchildren. She now calls herself a stay at home grandma.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am. So honored to have Heidi Jones on the line with me today. Heidi, welcome. Thank you so much, Morgan. It's a privilege. Well, I am so excited to talk to you, Heidi.

A friend recommended you and a friend that I think very highly of, and. As I prepared for this interview, I was, I was familiar with the story of the, the Mark Hoffman bombings, but I just fell in love with your mom based on the things that you said. And I even found a, I don't know if it was a blog post or something that a friend of your mother's daughter wrote, and she talked about how special.

Your mom was to her mother. Um, and I just thought, man, this lady must, must be incredible. So I'm excited to get a piece of her from you. I [00:02:00] wanna start on October 15th, 1985. You lost your mother in the horrific bombings that were carried out by Mark Hoffman, and I would love to have you, before we ever get into that day, I'd love to have you tell us a little bit about your mom, who she was and what made her.

So incredible thanks for this opportunity. 'cause you know the news stories when it came out, when this all happened, she was a 50-year-old housewife and, and that's basically what she was, I mean, her name wasn't even included a lot, so this is really fun to be able to talk about her. My mom was a petite little five foot, two tiny little lady with salt and pepper, gray hair, green eyes.

She was the youngest of 10 kids. Her father was a principal. Her mother was a school teacher. She became a school teacher. So did I. Just kind of a generation thing here. But she was funny, witty, hilarious. She was well known in the school community, the elementary school for playing great. April Fools jokes, and she really went over the top to the teachers.

So for instance, just quickly, there was a guy painting our house, and so she had him dress up like a doctor and took him over to the school with a great big hypodermic needle. And she went in the classroom about third graders, you know, my sister's class, and said, how many of you've had a cold? And how many of you've got the sniffles?

And ha, all the hands go up. Well come line up right here. We have Dr. Barney right here. He's gonna talk to you a little bit about it, but first he's going to give you a shot. And he pulls out the needle and all the kids' eyes go big and, oh, nevermind, nevermind. I never had a cold. And then things that would never fly in 2025.

Oh, never. Yeah, this happened a long and this would never fly. This next one, she, um, when I was in junior high, she came in my class with nine toddlers from the neighborhood. I [00:04:00] said, oh, I'm so sorry Heidi. I've got an appointment, but I was tending all these kids, so I'm just gonna leave 'em with you for the next hour.

And thanks teacher. You know? And the teacher had no idea. I had no idea. And just so she was famous when the school had their 20 year anniversary of being built, they invited her for a special award and they awarded her with a dozen long stems. With the roses cut off, no roses just stems. That was her tribute.

Yeah, that was their tribute for her. So she also lived right by where the bus stopped and the kids got out and she loved watching 'em just kind of frolicking and wrestling on their way home. And one day she had a great idea to go and. A whole bunch of rolled coins, you know, pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, and she sprinkled them all over the ground where these little kids would get off the bus and walk, and then she hid in the bushes and watched them as they joyously, found all this money.

So she was fun. Just a fun, wonderful lady. Amazing. And I hate to even ask you to do this, but I, I wondered if you could kind of to set the stage for this conversation, share with us a little bit about that day in 1985 and how you learned about what happened to your mom and then maybe, maybe we'll start there.

Okay. So I was a young mom. I was 26. I had two little kids, a 3-year-old and nine month old, and my phone rang that morning and it was my dad, and he'd heard about Steve Christensen and the bombing there, and he had tried to get ahold of my mom. He said, I'm gonna go now and, and go see the family, but I'd like you to try and get ahold of your mom and tell her about Steve.

I don't think she knows about Steve. So I tried and tried for a while that morning and I didn't have the news on, and I had to quickly run an errand, take my little boy to get his first haircut, and I came back to my house [00:06:00] and I went to run in to just grab something and my phone rang and my doorbell rang at the very moment, answered the phone, pulled it over to the door.

My friend on the phone said, Heidi, what's going on at your parents' house? There's been a bombing there. I was like, no, that was downtown. She's, no, listen to the news. There's another one. And then my friend at the door said, said the same thing and she said, let me take your kids. 'cause I said, I better go over there.

At the time, they didn't say there was a fatality. So I'm driving over in my car, listening to the radio and I only lived about a mile and a half from my mom. And as I'm driving, they say there's been a fatality, but they don't say who. So as I continued driving, I can see right exactly where I was when on the radio it said.

The female fatality at the Sheets house has been identified as Kathy Sheets, so I heard it on the radio and you know, you hear pending notification of family names are not released. Well, this story, just the way it was, the way it was such an outlandish, crazy story that day that none of the rules applied, applied every and so I.

In my brain I heard it, but in my heart I didn't. So I kept driving. I tried to drive up to my, the street to go, go to my parents' house. I was stopped by cops. They said, go to the police station. So I went down to the police station and I got out of my car and my dad and my husband, Roger were walking out on the sidewalk.

And I said, is it real? And they said yes. And I just fell. I just collapsed. So as that day went on, all my siblings, you know, my junior high brother was taken out of a class with a police escort. They can't tell you anything. They just say there's an emergency drive you to the police station. My sister was in a college class.

My other sister had heard it on the radio, so she had already been there when my dad actually heard the news. And that was, you see [00:08:00] that clip a lot on, on the news. Channels when they, you know, replay some of this stuff. So we hung out that day at the police station and then went over to a member of our state presidency's home, just so we could gather and be together and be away from media and away from the public.

Heidi, are you the oldest in your family? I am. I'm the oldest. I have two younger sisters. I'm the youngest, is a brother. Okay. And you said you had a little boy, um, were, how old were you at the time? He was 26. Okay. Yeah. And then my youngest brother was 15. Wow. Could you share with, with me and with our listeners, kind of the unseen aftermath of that event for you and your family?

I think, like you said, there are clips that you know, to this day we see on documentaries and on the news, but talk to me about what people didn't see and kind of what was going on in your mind and heart after that. Well, that day we stayed at the state president, remember the state presidency's home, and we were all told we'd have to go into police protection, not be able to stay in our homes and have to go somewhere else.

So we basically planned a funeral within the hours of her death, and my dad went to a hotel with a police escort police officer that stayed with him. I took my younger brother and we went. Up to a condo in Snowbird that my in-laws had. My sister took my other sister to her in-laws, but before we could even go back home to gather things, police had to go in and just completely scan our homes to make sure, and this was at night.

You know, you're just thinking of grabbing what you need to grab, and the news stories kept going. It was so [00:10:00] inaccurate and the things were said, and you know, my dad's business troubles were being broadcast and numbers were all off. And my dad decided to go and be interviewed just to clear, clear things up, and it backfired in a big way.

And the criticism came out even worse. But we didn't see each other again until my mom's funeral. So that was a real hard way to adjust, to start grieving to. Deal with what's going on. 'cause we couldn't talk to each other really. It was just a real weird, crazy time that kind of seemed surreal. Right.

It, it almost, I, I feel like anytime somebody that you love passes away, it feels kind of like an out of body experience, but I can only imagine if you lost especially a parent in such a traumatic way. What that, what that would've felt like. In the, the talk that you shared with me, you talked about how you saw Mark Kaufman around town.

Is that right? Yeah. We both lived like in the same community area, so I saw him at a video store. I saw him at a fast food restaurant. That was really weird. That has to be so weird. And, and you started to feel like this kind of became all consuming for you, right? It did, and a lot of that was by choice. I was obsessed with every news article and everything.

I'd record things on news channels and I'd watch it and rewatch it partially because. It was brought up everywhere. People talked about it. Everywhere. I went from Sunday school classes to dinners to, you know, my, my neighbor's house. And I wanted to know what had been said, so I wasn't caught off guard.

Right? So by being obsessed with this, it was consuming. And I just felt like the negativity, the [00:12:00] hatred, the anger, the frustration. It was just, just burying me. And like I say, I allowed it to happen because I just was, I couldn't stop myself from doing that. And luckily I had a very patient and kind and understanding husband who was there for me, and he could see what was going on, but he knew I needed to work myself through that.

Just for someone to say, just stop. It wasn't, I wasn't in a place where I could do that, so I let this really consume me and to the point where I kind of was lost, I didn't know what to do. Heidi, did you ever feel like it affected your testimony? Yes. Yeah. Um, in fact, before charges were filed. You know, Hoffman had dealt with some church leaders soul stuff.

Right. I had a hard time listening to them in general conference. I turned those off just 'cause I was struggling with how did they not know? How did they, you know, not feel the spirit of this man? Which I think are questions that a lot of people had. Yeah. That were not affected. Like you were affected by it.

Right. And, and so it just, it was kind of like, okay, where do I go? To get peace and comfort and and advice, and my natural man just kind of became consumed and not being able to really sort through things very well. So you said that you came to a point where you realized that you were not happy, you were miserable, and that this was not the way your mom would want you to live your life.

Letting go of this heaviness you recognized would require forgiveness, but you weren't even really sure how to [00:14:00] let it go. Could you talk to me about. Why it was so hard to even know where to start when it came to forgiveness, and then how you went about seeking that ability to forgive. What did that process look like for you?

I think at first I didn't wanna forgive. I was kind of, you know, liking just being angry. Angry and obsessed. And yet I knew, I knew once I got to heaven, my mother would scold me. If I let this ruin my life, she would be so disappointed in me. And so I knew, okay Heidi, you can't keep going like this. Plus I was not being a good wife.

I was not being a good mom. You know, I was not being a good, um, daughter, sister, friend. 'cause I was allowing this just to oppress me. Just to weigh on me. And like I say, I've got a very wise and kind and patient husband who would talk me through things and he would talk to me about, okay, where, where are you feeling peace today?

Are you feeling peace? Where do you think you can feel peace? How do you think you can put this aside? And he would teach me in his talking to me and we'd talk about the atonement and I'd, I'd known what Christ Atonement was, but I didn't really, I'd studied it, you know, in seminary and things like that, but I'd never had an experience to apply it in my life.

And Atonement means to become at one the savior.

Started hearing what Roger was saying and then studying more on my own and knowing he's felt this, he knows what I'm feeling. He suffered these feelings so I wouldn't have to. So why am I bringing [00:16:00] this all upon you when he's already done it? But I also knew that to apply the Christ Atonement in my life.

I had to be able to take that huge burden, that oppression, and lay it at the savior's feet and leave it, lay it and leave it and not go back. And when people start talking in a Sunday school class, pull it all up again and get all mad again. I had to just leave it and walk away and after a lot of weeks of prayer.

And fasting and you know, just struggling. I became ready to do that and I was able to go and just package it all up and leave it visually and spiritually. Leave it at the savior's feet and walk away. Walk away. I think that is incredible. And you recently said this, I don't think about Hoffman. I don't dwell on the circumstances of my mother's death and I feel peace fill my heart where anger once stood.

You have already talked about the atonement of Jesus Christ and, and obviously that's what makes it possible for you to, to leave it in that way, but. Is there anything else you would say about what makes us able to, I mean, to me that statement I don't think about Hoffman is pretty remarkable. So what would you say, Heidi, it is that that makes that even a remote possibility?

I think being able to forgive and just feel like I'm not gonna hold onto this anger towards him. Because it's really poisoning me, right? And [00:18:00] it's, it feels horrible. And to be able to just say, I forgive you. I forgive you for what you did that changed my family's life. My life, everyone's life. And I, by forgiving you, I'm not going to.

Let this consume me. I'm not gonna think about it. I'm not gonna, I didn't talk about it much. I didn't give this talk in, um, women's conference until 2003. Um, I didn't talk about it at church. I didn't use it in, you know, separate meeting talks. I just had to let it go and to truly feel that feeling where I can think of him and hear his name and everything, and I feel nothing.

I really feel nothing. I can watch all the documentaries that have been done and everything and still feel nothing, and I know I can't do that by myself because like I say, the natural man of me is there, right? But I also know that when I did that, visually, laying it at its savior's feet, the saviors with me blessing me, helping me to forgive and let it go.

Constantly. He's never left me. I wanted to ask you, Heidi, one more thing, and I'm curious how you came to the point of reconciling, you mentioned like those feelings toward church leaders. How did you, how were you able to reconcile that? Oh, that's a really good question because we were living in Chicago.

We moved there in 88 to 96, so we were living there still while this is all being figured out. Okay. And the plea deal with Hoffman and everything, and I had, I, I not listened to certain general authorities and then I, I would slough Sunday school because that was the way I was rebelling against, you know, all [00:20:00] the, you know, injustice, injustices of the world.

But one day I was going visiting, teaching with my companion and we were meeting at the house and she was late and I had the sign in my car and she was pretty late. So I picked it up and I read most of it and that helped me have a change of heart because I read those very general authorities talks and I thought, what have I been cheating myself out of?

What have I been missing? I've been. Totally hurting myself, not hurting anyone else. No one else cares if I go to Sunday school or if I listen to talks, but I've been hurting myself. And then there was a time early on where you know, the church would buy the Salamander letter and kind of tuck it away and tuck away some things that were really controversial and difficult to explain.

President Oaks was then put in charge of. The church history department and right after he was, this whole Hoffman thing was still going on and he said, everything is open to the investigators. Whatever you need, the vaults are open. And that changed everything. 'cause we were talking with the investigators, we talked to the detectives and everything, and that was such a pivotal point.

In the case for President Oaks to just say we're an open book. And that has made me love him. You know, from the time he did that. 'cause I didn't know much about him prior to that. And then like when he's made the profit, it's, it's just this reassurance that I know this is a prophet of God. I know he is such a good man that does right.

And it was, we were so grateful for him and for his guidance and direction in that. Thank [00:22:00] you so much for answering that question. I now, Heidi, want to shift to a different kind of forgiveness, which is forgiving the unfairness of life your husband. Who, I love that you've already talked about how wonderful your husband is and how he helped you through a really difficult time.

He now has Parkinson's disease. For those that are not familiar with how Parkinson's disease affects someone's day-to-day, could you tell us just a little bit about your husband's experience with this terrible illness? Yes. Roger was diagnosed officially about three years ago when we were serving a mission.

We were in the Pittsburgh mission, but in western New York in a little teeny tiny town, right on the border of Pennsylvania, about an hour south of Buffalo. And kind of to back up a little bit, we had planned on going on a mission. We had a timeline, and we both retired in 2020. And we were, and then COVID hit, but we had some trips planned.

We wanted to do, one of 'em was to go to Holland where my husband served his mission. We'd never been, he'd never been back. So we had it all planned for the spring of 2022, and Roger listened to a conference talk in April of 2021 and came to me and said, I just feel like we can't put this off. We need to go on a mission sooner.

And I just have felt this profound spiritually. And with Roger. I don't question his spiritual promptings at all. I, he lives very close to the spirit. And so I said, okay, so we put things in the works so we could go on our mission about a year earlier than what we planned. And in the MTC, Roger started with this slight tremor on his left pinky.[00:24:00]

And as things progressed, it got a little bit worse and a little bit worse. We have a daughter that's in the medical field and she was researching things and she kind of. Going back and figuring out some other symptoms that Roger had had that we had just like negated this old age, you know, aging, things like that, and putting those together.

So we saw our primary care doctor, he expressed some of the things that were going on. He sent us to a neurologist. There happened to be this neurologist three days a week, and this funny little town where we lived, you know, I mean, it was, it was miraculous. It really was. So. She diagnosed him and said, you've got Parkinson's disease.

After just a quick look at him and just clinically in the office, no blood tests, nothing. And got him on a medication and at first I think, I think we were both kind of in denial 'cause he still was functioning pretty well. Then things started getting difficult on the mission. There were things he couldn't do, he couldn't express himself as well.

Cognitively, things were changing. And so we sought our mission president and he gave Roger very profound, beautiful blessing that blessed him that whenever it came to any kind of church work in our mission, he'd be able to do it. He was in the bishop brick of the ward 'cause we remember and leader support missionaries.

He taught a lot. He trained a lot. We'd go on visits and he'd testify and. The blessing said, whenever you're on the Lord's errand, basically you'll be fine and the rest doesn't matter. It's like, oh wow. And that's what happened. We were able to finish strong. Roger did great. We got home. He had a ski accident that just started the rapid decline of Parkinson's.

So Parkinson's affects every part of your body, your mind, your mental health, [00:26:00] mainly your physical health. And everyone's Parkinson's is different. So you can't like, okay, read up. Okay, this week plan on this this week, plan on this. So it's a constant battle to get his meds regulated. We see amazing doctors that help us.

He's got a speech therapist, 'cause speech is an issue. He's got, um, some great PT that goes on with OT and, but his body is rapidly declining. He's lost a whole bunch of weight. He's lost his appetite. He, he can't do things that he could. He was strong as an Knox, could do anything mentally, physically tough, you know, just handle the real high pressure job and all of that is just being ripped away day by day.

It's a, it's a brutal, brutal disease. Yeah. I feel like there are a handful of diseases that I'm like, I do not. I do not want that. And I feel like Parkinson's would be on that short list of just truly awful. Things to experience, and I know as hard as it has to be on him, it's probably so hard on you as a spouse to watch your husband go through that.

What was going through your head? You, you're on this mission, you've, like you said, gotten things in order to go a year early. What was going through your head when you learned of his diagnosis and then kind of again, kind of that unseen aftermath of, of learning, something like that. Well, like I said, at the first, it's kind of, you're in denial, you know?

And there's five stages of Parkinson's and we on remission, Roger was about a stage one, and the end stage, of course stage [00:28:00] five is not pretty. Not pretty at all, but. Roger's probably high three to four right now. And so looking forward and seeing what the future is and knowing how bleak it is, it's like, you know, someone that has Lou Gehrig's disease kind of can see that as well and know that the end is not gonna be pretty, and it's gonna be really tough on both of us.

But I feel like we're both in this together. In fact, if I could. If I could share it with him, if I could take it half the time for him, I would. I, he was getting ready to do a big hike with our daughter before this ski accident that triggered everything in on the Inca Trail. And if I could take this for him for three months so he could get in shape and go with our daughter and do this amazing hike, I'd do it.

I would, I know I'd hate it, but I would do it. Because it's so hard to see him not have a choice, and like he said, he feels trapped in this body that is not serving him. Heidi, in, in a text prior to this conversation. You said that taking a step back and thinking about the challenges and trials of God's children throughout history is one thing that has helped you put things in perspective.

Could you elaborate and, and kind of share how pondering that thought has helped you through this? Just when you kind of feel like, Hey, I thought I had my trial with my mom. You know, I thought, okay, good. I had it young, I'm done. That was awesome. Check the box and then other things come along and this big one with Roger, and you kind of feel like, wait a minute here.

And then all you have to do is think back to Christ and look at the trials he had. And [00:30:00] we know how much heaven father loves his son. And think of Joseph Smith. I mean here he was a 14-year-old boy. He had no idea what he was in store for. And heavenly father I, I know he is a choice, choice son of our father in heaven, and it wasn't taken from him.

So who am I to think it should be taken from us? And can I then refocus and. Look and think, what? What can we learn from this? What can this do for us as people to get us more prepared, to meet our father in heaven, to be better disciples of Christ here on the earth through this to be better parents and better grandparents, and to be able to be empathetic and kind.

And just this morning I was helping at my grandson's school, and as I got out to walk in, I see this darling old family pull up and. The cute little kids get their brother out of the car who needs to be put right in a wheelchair and they wheel him in. And I thought they do that every single day and they've done that since he was tiny.

And they'll do that for all these years. So it, it's humbling to kind of step back and think, who do you think you are that that trials shouldn't come your way? And I know that with trials comes blessings and our time is not the Lord's time. He knows way more what we need in our life and what we can become with our trials.

One other thing with the timing, when I went and told you the story about our, when we went on our mission, if we had waited that year and gone to Holland, we never could have gone on a mission because he wouldn't have passed the physical if he'd been tremoring and had Parkinson's. Right. So, huge, huge blessings.

From Roger listening to the spirit and [00:32:00] going when we went, and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. It was markable. Another thing that you said, Heidi, was that you have taken the time to stop and appreciate the blessings and the timing of Roger's battle with Parkinson's and that that has been humbling and helpful.

I wondered if you could share a little bit about how you've seen those blessings, both in terms of timing and the nature of his. Sickness and and how you've seen blessings even in the nature of Parkinson's. One of the first things that occurred to both of us is that this happened when we're both retired.

We're in a position where we can go to doctors. He's not stressed about making a living, which if this had happened, the kind of job he had, they wouldn't have gone together at all. It would've been really difficult financially and. Emotionally for him and for his ego and self-esteem. So what a blessing that it came at the time it did.

'cause that doesn't happen for everybody, right? Our children were raised, they were married, they were all established and moving on with their lives. We have grandchildren and our older grandchildren are gonna have very different memories with grandpa than our younger ones where he could take 'em out hiking and biking and doing all those things that they can now share with the younger.

Once we're in a position where we have the ability to go and pay for the things he needs and they get great insurance that compensates for that. And we both had had great opportunities to serve in the church in many, many, many capacity capacities. And I think everything that we learn through those callings have blessed us to have.

Just more peace, more empathy, more love and kindness towards [00:34:00] each other, towards others, towards the situation. And if this had happened when we were really young, we wouldn't have had those experiences that, you know, you hear and all these things shall give the experience and shall be for thy good. We're feeling that right now.

We, we draw on so many things that we've experienced. Roger spent time as clergy at the jail and that. That refined him in so many ways that helps him to just feel deeply for others. I think it's so interesting that idea of experience and why the Lord gives us the experiences that he gives us. It's something that I've been thinking a lot about lately.

A, a friend said to me a couple of days ago that the Lord is not as concerned as we are about outcomes. He's concerned about engagement and our engagement through, through the experiences that we have. And so it's so interesting to me to think about, you know. The experiences that he gives us leading up to something that we go through, then going through that thing and what is the point of it all?

Um. Heidi, I wonder for you, how has caring through for your husband, kind of coming full circle a little bit, because you talked about the way that your husband cared for you in the wake of your mom's passing. How has caring for your husband through this experience blessed your life? Well, to be totally honest, Roger is a way better care.

Caregiver than I've ever been. I mean, the kids had come to climb in bed with us at night and they'd go to his side of the bed, not, don't bug mom when she's sleeping. You know, with through babies and surgeries and things like that. He is the best nurse, the kindest man, the most patient, [00:36:00] just Johnny on the spot.

And that has not been my gift. That has not been who I am. Um, I taught school for many years and I can be patient with little kids and, you know, understand them and, but I've not been able to be patient with illness or caretaking, and this is now in my lap and here's my opportunity to maybe adjust my character and become a better person so that I'm.

I am more likely to hopefully get to heaven because I know Roger is going straight there and I, maybe this is a way that Heavenly Father's saying, okay, here, you're not very great at this, so let's help you get better at it. And seeing someone that you loves so much, I mean, we've been married 46 years.

He's part of me. He's, you know, it's like if I didn't have him, it's cut my arm off to see him and to want him to feel. Comfort and joy and happiness and not pain, and try whatever I can do to do that is huge. And with my mother's death, it was so violent, so sudden, she was plucked from this life. She still had her clothes laying over the bench in her room and all this unfinished business.

Mom, where did you put this? And if I could only ask her this, and it occurred to me, heavenly father. Help me learn and see that it's gonna be totally different. With Roger, I'm gonna be able to say everything I need and wanna say, I'm gonna be able to be the kind of wife I want desperately to be, and when I mess up, I can try again the next day.

We're not gonna have unfinished business. We're gonna take care of things. All the little things that need to be taken [00:38:00] care of before someone passes from this life. And I think what a gift that is for my father in heaven that I don't have to go through losing him in the say of way I did my mom. That it's gonna be complete and peaceful and it'll be, it's not happening soon.

I don't want you to feel like it is happening soon. We've got, we've got a lot of time left, but the peace I feel in knowing I can, I can make mistakes and fix them and repent and try harder the next day. In trying to make his life the best life I can make and our lives the best life we can make with the time that we have left.

Well, I, I admire your faith and optimism, your ability to forgive so, so much. You are a delight. Thank you so much for, for chatting with me. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? You know, Morgan, since I started listening to you at the very beginning, I've thought about this question because I've heard so many amazing answers.

And for me, every my father is everything to me. My relationship with my savior. It's everything. It's, it's who I am. It's how I live. It's how I try to live. It's how I interact with people, how I try to listen to the spirit, how I try to get guidance from Heavenly Father. He's everything to me. And I had, I can't help but have this visual that keeps coming to mind.

So for me, all in, I think of a swimming pool. And I think of when you sit on the side of a swimming pool, 'cause you don't really wanna get cold when you get in. So you dip your foot in and you pull it out and then you go down to your knees and you pull it out and then you maybe dip your foot in and you pull it [00:40:00] out.

And for me, it'd be really easy to just say, oh, it's kind of cold. I'm gonna sit on the side. And I love pools and I love swimming. So when I am around a pool, I know for myself, I have to go either to the diving board or to the side. And I have to jump all the way in until I'm completely submerged all in, and then I can enjoy the pool.

It's not cold anymore. It feels great. I've got my hair's wet. Everything's just great, and I can just enjoy that beautiful feeling of the water. And so for me, that's what it feels like is to be all in. To not leave yourself in the place where you pull out when things get tough, where you, you know, doubt your doubts and don't, you know, you need to doubt your doubts and not doubt your faith.

When you're doubting your faith, you're pulling your feet out. And just like I say, God is everything to me, my savior, my relationship with the saviors, everything to me, and I'm all theirs. I am here to serve them. I am here. To do what I know I should do. Do what they want me to do, try to be better every day.

Repent from my faults every single day, try to see others through Christ's eyes. I'm theirs and I'm all in, and I, I know it and I don't question it. And the peace that gives me every single day. It just makes me feel so much joy and happiness knowing I know that. Thank you so much, Heidi. You are remarkable.

Your mom. Your mom would be very, very proud of you. So thank you very much.

We are so grateful to Heidi Jones for joining us on today's podcast. We're also grateful to Derek Campbell of Mix at [00:42:00] Six Studios for his help with this in every episode of this. Podcast and we're grateful to you, especially at this time of Thanksgiving. Thank you so much for spending time with us each week.

It's been over seven years since we started this podcast, and I hope you know that I never take your listening for granted. Thank you from the bottom of my heart and have a happy thanksgiving.