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[00:00:00]  On the same day that we did this interview, Ben Hammond watched as his newest contribution to the renovated Temple Square. A statue of the restoration of the ceiling keys was placed. Speaking of its placement, Hammond said once they moved all the construction equipment out of the way from installing it, and we.

The plastic off of it. I got a little emotional there. It was a good feeling. On his website. Ben Hammond himself says that some of his deepest feelings have a hard time being articulated through words, so he creates art. But I think that you'll feel in our conversation today that Ben Hammond's testimony shared both through his words and his art is contagious.

Ben was born in 1977. He was raised in the rural town of Pingree, Idaho, where his love for art was nurtured from the time he was a small boy. He studied art at Rick's College, graduating with a degree in illustration. Ben is a talented portrait artist, and since 2007 has completed more than 50 portrait bust for the Pro Football Hall of fame.

His works have found permanent homes in collections, both public and private throughout the United States. He is currently working on four multi figure monumental compositions for Temple Square in Salt Lake City, Utah. This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am. So honored to have Ben Hammond on the line with me today. Ben, welcome. Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be here. Well, I always enjoy Ben, the prep of this podcast. That may be like a weird thing about me. I love having a good excuse to dive deep into somebody's life, but I loved.

Really loved prepping for this episode, and I just think you are a fascinating person. So I wanna, I wanna start in a little bit of a unique place for this interview. One thing that I noticed in watching and listening to some things that you've done in the past is that you've talked about. The skeleton and how understanding the skeleton in the human body is so important.

And maybe it's because we've been learning about the creation and come follow me, but I just thought that was so interesting. And so I wondered if you could start off by sharing a bit about why understanding, uh, the skeleton, the human body is so important in what you do. Well, the skeleton, it's interesting, uh, a lot of people think, oh, do you study muscles and, and all that?

And I'm like, yeah, I study muscles. But muscles move and all the fleshy parts of our body move and change depending on what position we're in. But the skeleton is that solid structure. It's that solid foundation of the body. So the reason your elbow looks the way it does is because the skeleton, your forearm, your wrist, your hands, and most importantly, your face, your complete likeness, the architecture of your face is your skull.

It's what makes you look like you. It's not the pigment of your skin, it's not the fleshy parts as much. Those, those fleshy parts, I should say, are determined by what's underneath. So I just love this idea of this solid. Solid form underneath all this fleshy mass, and I have to understand that. Or for my sculptures and sculpture in general, look kinda like Gumby.

There'll be something that just looks off because it's not structurally sound. The foundation is off. And I always call it putting lipstick on the pig in the context of sculpture. If you do a net surface anatomy with muscles and things. Aren't correct. The ends of the muscles aren't connected to the bone structure.

Your face, your skull is off. Everything will just kind of look. Like, oh, that's a lot of detail you put on there. Beautiful eyebrows. Too bad. The skull is like all out of whack and it doesn't look right. So it's just really important. It's just that, that strong foundation that everything's built upon in understanding and anatomy.

So a lot of people like, oh, do you have all the muscles memorized? I'm like, no, but I know what a skeleton looks like and the rest I can kind of make up if I get the skeleton right. Because it's just putting that soft tissue where it belongs in context of the skeleton or foundation of the body. Yeah, so I guess that that, I had a similar question to what you've said.

You've been asked before, so did you have to study the skeleton in order to know the different bones? Is a funny, funny way to put it. Like nobody tested me on it. I didn't take a class. It wasn't required, but it was just something when I started looking at the kind of sculpture that I wanted to do, like the best of the best, and I'm just like, man, these guys understand the figure inside and out.

They, I remember the first time I went to the Mu Rodan when I went to Paris and I just, I swore every time I, I kept taking like a sideways glance or a second glance. These sculptures. 'cause I felt like the rib cage was expanding. Like, I'm like, did that guy just take a breath? Did that lady just breathe?

Because there was something about it. It wasn't 'cause of detail. 'cause Rodan is, is loose in a lot of ways with his, the way he does the human form. But because his skeletal structure is so strong, it just felt so real. And then when I went to Italy and moved on to Italy on that trip and saw Michelangelo and Bernini, I.

Oh man, what is this? And I came back home and I went to my mentor Blair and Ed Ton and I'm like, what is the deal? What am I doing wrong? And they're like, oh, you've gotta understand the skeleton. The skeleton is what it's all about. So I started, 'cause at the time I was working from life a lot using models and like really getting good at the surface and, and having these nice figures that I was sculpting.

Ed especially just pounded into me one day and, and Blair did this too, who I spent a lot of time with, but Ed kind of like a light bulb finally clicked all the things that Blair had taught me. Ed just said something one way where he's just like. It just clicks that I have to get this bone structure right, and all of a sudden I, I just forgot about the muscles and understanding and memorizing all the muscles just to kind of look cool.

Like when I'm teaching a class or something and I'm like, this is where the gastric emus inserts at the back of the tibial, whatever, you know, like, whatever. It's just dumb stuff. It's not, it doesn't really help your sculpture get better, but when I really understood that, like. Wow, what the knee really is, is that femur head nestling on that tibia and the fib.

I mean, all that stuff just started blowing my mind, and when I started adding that to my sculpture, it went from nice sensitive figures to that power or what I call breathing life into a piece that I saw when I went to the Mu Rodan and I saw Michelangelo's work and all these great. Sculptors. I'm like, that's what I wanna do.

I wanna breathe life into it. And it was interesting that in order to breathe life into, it isn't anything on the surface. It's that bone, that strong bone structure of the figure. I feel like there's a lot of. Gospel parallels that you could draw from that. But I, I guess one question that I had as I, as I watched you talk about this in a video was I was like, this has to strengthen your testimony of a creator when you understand.

From the perspective of somebody creating something. 'cause I think I, I am not a science person. There's no way that I would've been a doctor and I consider myself to be more of a creative. And so watching you talk about that as an artist, I thought was so fascinating. So how, how has doing this work and kind of getting to that foundation level strengthened your testimony of a creator?

Well, it's interesting as I think about that, I, I, as you were talking, and I just thought of this wonderful experience I had when I was teaching a workshop down at the Scottsdale Artist School in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I had this lady in my class and, um, she was a renowned radiologist. I mean, she worked at a hospital that just worked on elite athletes, and I can't say who, she couldn't say who she was either with all these NDA things and, but as I was teaching the class.

She came up to me and she's just like, I totally agree with you, that we're created by God. There has to be a God because of the way the body works. And I'm like, did I say that? I mean, and she's like, no, but I can just tell by the way you talk about the human body that you keep saying like our, like divine design and things like this.

And she's just like, I can tell you believe we're the. And she, and I said, I didn't even know I was doing that. And she's like, I was an atheist before I started in the medical field. And once I saw how the human body worked and how complicated and perfect it was, she said, I just, there's no way This was just.

A happy accident. She's like, we have to have a supreme creator. And I was like, really touched by that because I, I told her, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. And then another lady overheard our conversation and she said, yeah, I can tell you're a believer just by the way you talk, the reverence that you hold the human body and the how excited you are about sculpting the human body.

And I was like, oh, I didn't even know I was doing that. I, but. After that experience, and that was probably 20 years ago. I just thought, yeah, it really, I, it really does connect me to the idea that we're creating the image of God when God said, let us go down and create man in our own image, it just, I look at my body and I'm just fascinated by the way my hands turn and the elbow and how the radius rotates and the onus stays there solid and how the shoulder works.

It's just like. It's a miracle. In fact, I was teaching yoga the other day and we were trying to work on shoulders, and I said. The shoulder is the most complicated joint, and whenever I see these robots, people saying, oh, we're making these humanoid robots, I'm like, there's no way you can mechanically create that scapula that rotates over the top of the ribs with that humeral head nestled in that scapular joint, that little disc, and then it's connected to the AC joint where the collarbone in there.

I'm just like. We, a robot can't give a hug the way humans are designed, that scapula can rotate and we can wrap our arms around somebody and a robot just stays those arms, just stay there on the side and go up and down and out and in. Where our shoulder joint is just this, like it's a marvel. It's a marvel.

And I talk to doctors about the shoulder and like, yeah, we try to fix it. We're getting better, but it's one complicated. Machinery and Right. I just, I just love the human body and I, I can't wait to like think of it as an exalted body. Like I don't get too hard on my, even though I'm getting old and I hurt like this body, somehow we're gonna get it to come back even in the resurrection.

And even if it's dust, it's those elements. Eternal. Eternal and they're gonna be a part of us. Again. That just, it just gets me so excited and the fact that what I'm trying to do is breathe life into clay and then cast it in bronze and somehow catch the spirit of the human body, the supreme creation of our father in heaven.

It's, it's just exciting. I never get tired of it. I certainly haven't mastered it. I'm still trying to just learn. Well that's, that's one thing I think that is a little bit contagious, Ben, about watching you talk about your work is this idea of like never getting tired of it and feeling excited about the work that you do.

That enthusiasm is contagious. So you love yoga. I love yoga. Another thing that we have in common, Ben, from what I understand, is that you love sports. And when you went to Blair Bus Well's studio for the first time, you saw a bust of an NFL athlete. And that was kind of when it clicked like, oh, you could do something like this and have it be your career and.

I love that. I love that. That was, that was a significant moment in your life and now you have had the opportunity to be mentored and to learn from Blair, and then you've also been able to do some of these NFL Hall of Fame bust yourself. Mm-hmm. I wondered. When you sit down and spend hours in a day with these very accomplished athletes, what have been your biggest takeaways from those experiences?

First and foremost, I have to say how impressed I am with them. Indivi like with, with very few exceptions, they're very driven, good people. Like they've accomplished a lot, not because of talent, but because of effort and determination to be great. And it's interesting that every time I talk to them, and they're, and it's interesting, I, I've talked to a lot of professional athletes.

I've met a lot of professional athletes. When you get to this hall of fame level, they're not very interested in talking about themselves. They want, they're like, tell me, they come into my studio and they're like. How did you get into this? Tell me. They're very interested in how I did it, and I start talking to them and pretty soon they realize and I realize that we're all the same.

We just, we found something we either loved and were passionate about or something we were just really good at and decided, you know what? I'm good at this. I'm gonna work hard at it, and I'm gonna become great. And it's a very similar attitude. They seem to be as impressed with what I can do as I'm impressed with their athletic greatness.

I mean, it's just really interesting, really. I mean, you're very good. Easy going. You're very good then. Well, I try, but I, you know, you never think I, and it's interesting. I don't think they think of themselves as like some awesome. No. Athlete. They just loved what they were doing and worked really hard at it.

And a lot of, I, I remember when I sculpted John Randall and this guy, he was, I loved watching John Randall 'cause he was, when I played football and baseball, I loved to talk and just like jabber and jabber and drive people nuts. And that was kind of, since I wasn't very good, all I could do was kind of annoy someone and hopefully they started making mistakes and I could take advantage of that.

So John Randall is just known in the NFL as one. He never shut up and he just talked and talked and talked and he'd find all these funny facts about people. So I was so excited when I got to sculpt him, I'm just like, oh, this will be funny. He's gonna just be random talking and about crazy stuff and talking about football.

I can't wait to ask him about like, because he used to yell things to Steve Young about being a Mormon and what goes on in the temple and stuff like that. Like literally on NFL films, they show him like. Steve Young and he goes to the temple like, it's just like all this funny stuff. So when I'm with him, he's just like, I was talking a little bit of football with him.

He's like, man, I don't really wanna talk about football. I'm done with football. And I'm like, well, tell me what you're interested in right now. And he said. SpongeBob Square Pants. He's like, I'm a stay at home dad now, and alls I watch is SpongeBob Square Pants with my kids, which I had kids about the same age.

So we start talking about some of our favorite SpongeBob Square episode, and we're just like laughing about squid and I'm just like, they're just people, famous people. I almost feel bad for 'em because they're just normal human beings that happen. Yeah. To be good at something and people admire that, but they admire that and other people too.

So when they see somebody else that's accomplished, it's like, wow, that's, that's amazing. They love hearing stories about how my parents parented. They love hearing that, like, I grew up with six siblings and that everybody's like a functioning member of society and nobody's in jail. They're like, what did your parents do?

They're like, because now that they're. Because usually they're retired and just starting their family, so they're very interested in parenting, so, right. That's usually like our main conversation is talking about family and kids and religion and politics come up. I love talking about those kind of things and like in that kind of atmosphere, we talk about all that stuff.

And SpongeBob, Squarepants,

um, well, I, I love that. I love. I, I agree that I, I think sometimes we put people up on a pedestal and it only makes it like a lonely place for them. Mm-hmm. And so remembering that they're human beings I think is important. And actually, that kind of feeds into my next question, because I have a funny experience.

So I, I'll start out with the question, but then I'll, I'll share a little experience. You've recently posted on Instagram that you were able to help your mentor, Blair Buswell, when he was working. I believe you said it was in 2018 on a bust of President Russell and Nelson. And because of that, you were able to spend a decent amount of time with President Nelson, which is something that most people don't get to spend hours with a prophet.

So I wanted to hear, you said that you'd never met a more peaceful soul, and I want to hear about that, but really quickly talking about, you know, mm-hmm. Making, feeling sorry for people. I went to a retirement party for the editor of the church news. This has been like 10 years ago now. And we walk into this room in the Joseph Smith Memorial building and there's President Nelson, and it's me and all my coworkers and all the other people in the room are chatting with each other.

And President Nelson's just standing there and I'm like, is nobody gonna go up and like talk to him? And so I just went up and I said, president Nelson, how are you? And my coworkers were like, what is wrong with you? But I was like, he looked lonely. So I think that it's interesting how sometimes we kind of dehumanize people and, and they need friends too.

They need somebody to talk to them. So anyway, with that being said, I wanted to hear a little bit more about this time that you were able to spend with President Nelson. Well, it, it was interesting because. Several years before I also had the same opportunity. Blair was sculpting, uh, Thomas s Monson. And the reason he has me there is because when you've got limited time, it's nice to have a second pair of hands.

So I'm like taking measurements and so Blair doesn't have to stop sculpting and do that, so I'm just taking some measurements and things like that. And President Monson was like talking to my grandpa. He was just full of stories, just funny out, like just we talked the whole day and like eight hours went by like.

Seconds. It was just crazy. It was just funny stories. And his, his memory, he had a harder time remembering what we were talking about five minutes ago than something that happened 50 years ago. And he could name every single person that was there and what happened. So that was my first experience spending some time with, with a prophet.

And so I kind of figured that like, oh, president Nelson will be like, president Monson, just happy go lucky and just wonderful. And he just came in and he was just so quiet. Which if you know me and you know, my family where I grew up, and even the fam my house right now, quiet is not like, it's not very common.

Like there, it's loud. We talk loud and uh, we have a lot of fun. And with President Nelson, I can just tell like right away, he was just very quiet and sometimes it can take it, it almost felt like I could perceive it as almost like a distance, but really he's just. He's looking around. He's very thoughtful.

He remembered everybody's name, like people that he met like five months ago that he just met for a couple minutes. He still remembered their name. He could still remember operating on my grandpa 40 years before like. It just blew me away. And I, you know, I was, I was kind of funny just trying to, you know, talk and, and make everything comfortable, but I realized he didn't need that.

He just, he just is okay sitting there and observing. And then once I finally shut my mouth and just was there and waited until he asked questions and then answered them, I just realized like, wow, he is one of the most thoughtful. Just good people I've ever been around. And, uh, it was just, I, I can't explain it.

It was, it was one of the most powerful experiences I ever had. And the reason I bring that up too is because I remember when he was. Sustained. Uh, you know, when we had the PSM assembly when he was the prophet and I'm sitting in my home in my pajamas like I love to do. Conference weekend is the best just to be.

I was in a bishop, Rick, so like anytime I got to do church and not wear a suit, I was happy as a clam. I remember sitting there and standing up during the Psalm assembly and we sustained President Nelson and I put my hand to the square. I was just blown. All of a sudden tears are pouring outta my eyes and I, I was like, is there a wind blowing?

I mean, it was the strangest experience. I've never felt anything like that in that setting. And it was interesting. Shortly after that I was doing a, uh, uh, temple recommend interview with a member of my ward, and I gotta that part. Do you sustain President Nelson as Prophecy Revelator? And she's like. Yes.

Did you not feel that during conference? And I'm like, when? When we sustained him, she's like, yes, wasn't that amazing? And I'm like, oh, I thought I was the only one. I don't know if I was like, God needed to tell me something 'cause I was gonna have some crisis of faith or something. I didn't know. But it was just really interesting.

And then about a year later, that was when he came in that room. And I just like of all the times I've been around. The corner of the 12 or the first presidency that time. I'm just like, you know when he said Take your vitamins? I remember. 'cause I, like I said, I was in the Bishop Rick through that and we're like, it seems like every six months, every conference, like what are they gonna change now?

What, what do we have to implement now? And I was kind of talking to him, I'm like, you know, I've been to young men's president now that I'm in the Bishop Rick, I don't know if you should do away with the young men's presidency. That's a really good organization to have. And he's like, um, Ben, it wasn't my idea.

I'm like. Okay. That's good enough for me. Awesome. And so, and it's just, I, I can't explain, like I said, I loved being around President Monson and it was really comfortable with President Nelson. It was like, it made me wanna, like, rethink my life and my, you know, my demeanor and everything like that. And it was a, it was a special experience.

And then my poor daughter just like would not, I think I posted on that picture. She made this little unicorn horn outta clay and she just refused to put her hand down. We're trying to get a family picture with a prophet and she's just got her hand up there the whole time. We're like, please take that down.

That's so cute. Oh shoot. Ben, I want to touch on something that I think will be of particular interest to our audience. You have worked on several sculptures and I think you just posted about a new one today. So you have three on Temple Square now, is that right? Three on Temple Square. We just, we just placed the third one this morning of the ceiling keys of Elijah restoring the ceiling keys.

Okay, so you have that one. You have the 10 virgins statue that is outside the Relief Society building. Mm-hmm. And then one of Andrew and Peter and the savior with their nets fishing. I am so fascinated by the way that you approach. Sculpture. And I think part of it for me that I kept thinking about is, on one hand you have these bust of people that are living where you're doing measurements and things like that.

And then you have these stories that are in the scriptures where you don't have people's measurements and you don't really even know what they look like. Mm-hmm. So I wondered how did these sculpture projects a come about? But B, once you get a job like this, how do you approach capturing a scripture story?

Well, first of all, there's several, there's five sculptors total that were chosen to do sculptures for Temple Square. So I'm doing, I'm doing four pieces, the three that you mentioned. I'm doing one more of Christ appearing to marry at the tomb. I'm glad that's last because it is so hard. I try to capture that moment in artwork got, which is one of my favorite moments in all of scripture.

I, you've got Mary Behi, you can't, your, the people listening can't see, but you can see on the video, that's Mary. She's looking behind her right now at the Savior, but. Wow. It, so they, they came to me. I was, they had several finalists. They had a, a large group, basically almost every latter day saint that was a sculptor.

We had a Zoom call, this was during COVID, and then they talked about this project, which to me was like. Do you know how many times the church has said, oh yeah, we're gonna do sculpture. They first came to me when they were like, oh, in Rome, we don't wanna do the thal pieces. We're gonna have LDS sculptures do some pieces, and we want you and Blair and Ed to do some.

And I'm like, oh, I was so excited. And then they're like, no, we're just gonna do the thulin. And I'm like, okay. So to me it was just a miracle that it actually happened. Like when they contacted me and they're like, okay, you're one of the sculptors we want, we want you to do. They first came to me and they said, they want you to do, come follow me.

Uh, we want you to do Christ calling. Just whatever apostles you, whatever calling you wanna do. And I was like, okay, so I'll, I'll just go through that process for that one because it was, I just saw it as an action thing. So right in my mind, as soon as they asked me to do it, I'm just like, there's gotta be movement.

We've, I, I want Peter and Andrew just like. Their nets. I want this action happening and I want Christ not standing there inviting them to come follow him. I want him like, like making a, a, you know, a drive by. Come follow me. Like I want him, move me moving because I just imagine the savior with that short amount of time for his ministry, how much he wanted to be able to teach.

Not that he was impatient, but he's kind of like. You felt the spirit, come follow me. And you have the choice. I'm not gonna force you. I'm not gonna sit here and try to convince you, but I'm on the move. I have things to do. I have the kingdom of God to establish you're on Earth and I want you to be a part of it.

I would love for you to be a part of it, but you have to let go. And so I just had this, like what I thought was a great idea and it was, it was hard to get it going at first. Because I'm doing all these little sketches and there's not a lot of detail on it. And people at the church are kind of like, I don't know if, if the portrait of Christ looks right, I'm like, I'm not even worried about what he looks like.

I just want this action so you can get this idea. And then once I started working on the scale model where I'm bringing actual models in, um, and I will tell this one funny story you talked about. How do you portray them? Um, I was sitting in Bishop Rick meeting. I'm the, I was the second counselor, got my bishop there and his.

His desk. And then the other counselor, first counselor, uh, named Brock Knight. He lives here in American Fork. He's sitting there and Brock's a great looking guy. He's been a, he's a professional baseball player at one point and, uh, works out a lot and very fit and trim. And I'm just looking at him and I'm like, Hey Brock, do you wanna model for my sculpture?

You wanna be Peter? And he's like. Really? And I'm like, yeah, would you grow your hair long and grow a big beard? And he's like, yeah, I'll do that. So he, so I was just in the beginning stages and he starts growing his beard out long. He doesn't tell anybody. And, uh, course everybody in the words like, what's going on?

Yeah. They're up there and they're like, oh my heck, brother Hammond's having a bad influence on this guy. He used to be the only bishop member with a beard, and now Brock is growing this big old bushy beard and long hair and he's, you know, he's 10 years older, me, and he has just full silver hair and silver beard.

So it's just like a great main of hair and I just loved it. And so. I told him, I said, yeah, I'm gonna have you model. So I took a lot of pictures and measurements of him and he came and posed for me and he gotta be a part of that. And the best compliment that I ever got was when it was totally finished, his mom went up to Temple Square and saw the piece and she's like.

Son. How did you do that? Every, like, it's his hands, it's his, his gesture. It looks just like him. And one of the coolest moments is when he is modeling for me, I told him I, I was videoing him. I like, I want you imagine that the savior. Says, I have work for you to do. I want you to leave. You know, you've finally been successful in your career and everything.

Everything's going well. I need you to leave it behind and come follow me. And this expression on his face that happened was like magical. I mean, he's not an actor or anything like that. He is just a regular guy. But he just, he caught this expression, and that's the expression that's on the sculpture that I worked really hard to capture that very expression.

And then Andrew is Ben Lomu. He was interviewing me for like, come follow up. Yeah. So Ben, I'm just like, Hey, I think I'm gonna do a, have a half Polynesian, uh, you know, um, Andrew for my sculpture, are you interested in like posing for me? He is like. That'd be awesome. So he came over. So he's, he's, uh, Andrew and I decided to do him clean shaven just for some variation, and that was fun to do.

In fact, Ben, he had to cut his hair again for something he was doing with the church. Filming with the church. And so he would come back and model for me with, and he's like, man, I missed that long hair. I wish I could grow that hair long again. And then for Christ, of course. Is just a challenge. I'm like, how do you represent the savior who's so individual to everybody?

So I just took a real kind of scientific approach to it. I, I, I looked at lots of pictures of, of Jewish people, of Hasidic Jews. I found all these pictures and I'm just saying like, okay, what bone structure is unique to that ethnicity? And then I started investigating. Then I left. Jerusalem about the same time Lehigh did that, went and settled in this island off the coast of Tunisia.

It's called jba. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's kind of this like isolated ethnicity of Jews that have lived there for a couple thousand years. So I, I didn't go there, but I found pictures of, and I'm like, okay, so maybe that's the bone structure. I wanna base at least Christ's skull off of.

So, and then figure out how to make him. Unique but not gen, not generic, but unique and, and interesting, at least as as far as I could. And then to capture that kindness because Christ, when I sculpted him, calling Peter and Andrew, it's kind of an action he's moving. So there's not as much emphasis on his face, it's just he's looking down and it's all the action of the figures.

But on this last piece I'm doing with the resurrected savior, and he's just said the name of Mary. Trying to capture that, that, you know, is, this has been a challenge. I, I had to ask the church for some more time. They were like, you're supposed to be done by now. And I'm like, you know, the place where it's going isn't ready yet.

You still have construction going on. Please gimme more time. I want this to be. Perfect. It's just, it's gotta, it's, I mean, it can't be perfect, but it's gotta be as good as I can do at this point in my career. And it's starting to come together and it's, and it's, I, people are like, do you just know when it's there?

And I'm like, no, I just hope I just sculpt and I go to work. It's kind of like faith. I can't just sit here and have faith, I have to exercise my faith and do something. So I just keep working on it and like, is this better? Should I change the eye a little bit? Should I change that? And then finally this last week, it just started coming together where I'm like starting to have an emotional reaction where I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm feeling good about Christ.

I'm not there with Mary's expression yet. It's getting close, but I'm starting to finally feel like it's getting there. And then I, so I always use models like the women, the, the five wise virgins that I did for the Release Society for when I presented that idea to them. They, they really liked it because it gives an opportunity, 'cause it wasn't supposed to, they didn't come to me and say, we want you to do the fi, the Parable of the 10 Virgins.

They said, we want a monument that represents the release society. And they really liked my piece that I did for the Utah Women's Walk, which I don't know if you're familiar with that piece, but it's a Thanksgiving point. It's a lot of women kind of surrounded lifting each other up. Okay. They're like, we love that piece.

We want you to do something like that. And I'm like, well, I can't do the same thing. 'cause I did that for the Utah Women's Walk. So I did some different little sketches and some ideas, and when I say sketch, I don't sketch on paper. I like take clay and make like little miniature clay sketches, which are called maquettes or depending if you're Italian influenced or French influence.

It's just the French word and Italian word for sketch. So it's not anything like fancy. So I created several different things and I did the five wise versions and I'm just like, and I'm like, I don't know how to do this because I was gonna do 10. And then I'm like, well, which women am I gonna show as the unwise?

And it's the relief society. It shouldn't be about the unwise. Let's just focus on the five wise. So I worked with the landscape architect, I found where it was gonna go, and I realized I need this to be tall and like a pillar shape. So that was the only basis that I had to go off of. So I went in hoping that was the one they chose.

There was also a sculpture I did of like women all adding like a stitch to a quilt, which I liked too. But when I talked to him I said, that's kind of North American. Like I don't know if somebody in Zimbabwe understands that he that. But every, and I said, plus, if we're doing these sculptures of Christ, it'd be awesome if the Relief Society monument is relate is one of Christ's parables.

And so when we talked about that, that was where they're like, they signed off. I'm like, yeah, let's, let's keep working with this idea. And then I told 'em, I said, let's show different ethnicities. 'cause it's a worldwide church. It's not. It's not a narrative of the five Wise Virgins. It's basically it represents the Release Society organization in the context of the five wise Virgins.

So people have come to me and they're like, they should all be Jewish ladies. And I'm like, I don't. It's the Release Society. It's not about the parable. Someday I'd like to do a sculpture of the actual parable of the five. Yeah. But this is Celebrate a worldwide, worldwide women's organization.

So hopefully every woman in the world can come to this statue and see themselves somewhere in it. I love that. So it was fun and you know, some of my models are members of the church, others are not, and they were all excited to be a part of this statue for the Release Society for Temple Square. So it was, it was a cool experience.

So neat. Um, I have to tell you that the moment where Christ. Comes to Mary at the tomb, I think is like, it's become my favorite scripture story, and oddly enough, one of the reasons my little girl, there's this Easter video on YouTube of this like evangelical Christian girl who's kind of like Miss Rachel telling the story of.

Jesus and and Easter, and there's this one line that I do not know what it is about it, but the way that the girl says it, it makes me teary eyed every time. 'cause she says something like, and when he said her name, she knew that voice because she had heard that voice say her name. Thousands of times.

Mm-hmm. And I just think about like what it will feel like someday to hear Christ say our names and how that moment will just be incredible, you know? Um, and so that, that story of marriot the tomb for some reason, it just means more and more to me, um, as time passes. Thank you so much for sharing those, those insights into those sculptures.

I'm sure everybody that's listening will love them even more having heard you talk about 'em. Um, maybe, or they'll think that's boring or I don't know, but yeah. No, no, no, no. They will not think that I, I just saw the five wise virgins statue in person. Leaving the, I think it was when we were leaving the Christmas concert and I was like, that is such a cool, cool statue.

So I want to ask about one more and mm-hmm. Before we get to our last question, so you have a sculpture of Martha Hughes Cannon, who was a member of the church and the first female senator from the state of Utah, and it's in the United States Capitol. Is that right? That is correct. And I just think it's cool, like we've been talking about people from the scriptures, but that there's this woman who, some people know about her, some people don't, but who was a member of the church and very committed to her faith who mm-hmm.

Is in the United States capitol. Like that's a big deal. So I wondered, what did you learn from studying? This person from more recent church history, um, and her, her commitment to the gospel, what did you learn from that? I learned that she embodies so much that I'm familiar with. You know, she's a convert to the church, joined the church in Wales with her family, came across the plains.

My mother joined the church when she was in college. When my mom joined the church, she was just all in. She never looked back and she raised, you know, even though she was the only member in her family, she grew up in a strong religious family, a different faith. But, you know, my grandmother, my sweet Lutheran grandmother, always just loved the savior and, and the embodied, uh, Christ-like attributes.

So. Like, so when I'm sculpting Martha, she's just like, this is my mom, this is my grandma, this is my wife, this is my daughter. And that's the way I felt about it at the very first. And so it was really tender to me that way. But as I worked on it more and studied about her and everything she did, I'm like, she's Utah.

She's a latter day saint. She represents what we represent to be industrious. Uh, Nephi said when, you know, they, they finally got things settled down. They were industrious and they lived after the manner of happiness and. I think there's something about being industrious and being happy and living after that manner.

She, she had things she cared about, that she worked hard at to accomplish in the health field. The reason she ran for Senator is she thought she could have greater influence on women than children's health if she could legislate it more than try to do it from the ground up. And once she succeeded in that, she's just like, well, I'm done.

I don't need to do this anymore. I accomplished what I hope it's not a lifelong thing that I have to do, or some ego that I need fulfilled. She just like, she saw it as, this is a, this is a need. Here's something I can do to fulfill this need and, and fix the situation or make the situation better. And she did that and it's such an a, an amazing story and it's, but it's not unique to her.

It's, her story's unique, but that attitude that she had was not unique to her. I think it encompassed many pioneer saints, and she's just a celebration of that, that pioneer spirit in the LDS church, that idea of being persecuted where she didn't see herself as being. Ed, either. She was a polygamous wife, so that made her a weirdo in, in that time period.

But she stuck up for what she believed. She, she didn't ever wanna be considered a country bump. It was funny, when I first did a sketch of her, I had her in a real simple dress. 'cause I'm like, you know, she was just simple and straightforward. I'm gonna sculpt in this real simple dress and I'm, and I'm Martha Cannon.

You have to put her in a real fancy dress. I'm like, why? And she's like, because she was a clothes horse. She had her dresses specially made in Chicago because as she went back east, she didn't wanna look like a country bumpkin. She wanted to be in style and she wanted to be. Elegant and respected. And so she wanted to dress that way.

So she, she represented that. So all of a sudden I'm like, instead of the simple dress, I gotta do the big poofy sleeves, fancy buttons and the collar and everything, and, and put her in this more fancy dress. And it was just a lot of fun to capture that part of her personality. And like I said, I just feel connected to her.

'cause I felt like I felt the same as hers, like. I feel called to do what I do. And so because I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna try to do it the best I can and I'm gonna involve God in my, in my life. And that's what she did. And she had a hard life. It wasn't simple. Her relationship wasn't simple. She, she talked about it's complicated.

To live in a polygamous relationship and, but to me it's, it's complicated To live in a monogamous relationship. Everything's complicated. But if you center on what's most important and things of eternal significance and focus on doing what good you can in the world, that's what I felt like she. And when I, when, and you know, I felt all that stuff, but once I installed the piece and saw it in Statuary Hall and I'm sitting there at the, you know, the seat of democracy in the United States and that's where she's standing to represent all of those things, that was a proud moment for me of being able to represent her.

Not that I did anything great, but. Um, I just love that her family's just like, man, our grandmother, our great grandmother is, she deserves this. She was amazing and she instilled this, you know, this belief system in us as well. And most importantly, her, her great granddaughter that was still alive, her oldest living relative, just said that actually saw her in life.

She came to my studio and she's like, how did you do? You got grandma. She's like, that's grandma, how did you do that? And I'm like, I don't know. I just, it's one of those things I just keep working until it finally looks right. And I just appreciated that she appreciated it because that makes me more happy than any, you know, you know, I don't know, any article in the newspaper or something like that.

Or, you know, the fact that her granddaughter said, that's grandma, that's amazing. Thank you for bringing her back to life for us. And it's just like. Wow. That's, that's awesome. I like my job. My job is awesome. That's your opinion in those moments. Yeah. So cool. Um, well, Ben, thank you so much. This has been so fun to talk with you and to learn from you.

Um, my last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Oh, I, it's simple but complicated. I'm just, I'm reading right now. The Antifa Lehigh after Amon and Aaron and and his brother, and go amongst the Laymanites for 14 years. And it talks after everything they went through and their miraculous conversion and the, and trying to live in peace. And they couldn't live in peace amongst the Lamanites and they needed to separate themselves.

And they were just like, you know. We're good. You know, whatever the Lord. If the Lord says we can move back with the knee fights, we will. But if we don't and we're all destroyed by our brethren, it's okay because we have been redeemed by God. We don't fear death, we don't fear anything. We have felt the redemption of Jesus Christ.

And I'm reading about that and I just said that is faith. That is the exact opposite of fear. They weren't worried about survival even, they just knew they had been touched by the redemption of the savior. And so they were all in. And to me, that's how I wanna live my life. I don't wanna live in fear. I don't wanna be obsessed with politics and everything that's bad in the world.

I wanna focus on the things of eternal nature. You know, there's some sadness that happens when we're separated in this life, but to know that I've been redeemed by Jesus Christ and that no matter what happens, nothing can happen in this life that can take that away from me unless I choose for it to happen.

And so to me, all in means to choose to have faith over fear at all times and in all places no matter what happens in her life. I love that so much and it actually, it goes right along. I was just listening today to something with Emily Bell Freeman, and she talked about how you. The, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Savior will never let go of you, but you can choose to leave him.

And I think that that idea of agency, and especially with this new year and thinking about the new you team walk with me, meaning the savior, I think that that idea of choosing. Actively choosing to walk with the savior is, is profound and, and it's a choice that we all have to make. And so, um, thank you for your example of that and of all the work that you've put into something that will bless.

So many people's lives just by looking at it. So thank you so much, Ben. You're welcome. Thanks for having me on the only podcast that I've actually subscribed to,

We are so grateful to have had Ben Hammond on this week's episode. Big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix It. Six studios for his help with this in every episode of this podcast. And thank you so much for listening. We will look forward to being with you again next week.