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[00:00:00] Several years ago, a woman named Sage Williams was on this podcast. She had recently been involved with organizing a symposium at Harvard called Faith and Flourishing Strategies for Preventing and Healing Child Sexual Abuse. Since that interview, Sage Williams. Partnered with Shirley Washenko, a survivor of sexual abuse herself to author a book titled, healing After Sexual Abuse.
A Latter Day Saint Perspective. Like Me, you Likely know and love people who have been sexually abused, in fact. The CD, C reports that at least one in four girls and one in 20 boys in the United States experience child sexual abuse. Nearly half of women and more than one in six men have experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetimes.
These statistics are significant and startling, and I hope you'll take the time to listen not only to [00:01:00] my conversation with Shirley on today's episode, but also the previous episode with Sage Williams. As President Russell M. Nelson has been quoted as saying, good inspiration is based upon good information.
And it is my belief that as we all become more informed about this topic, we will be inspired as to how to protect our families and create change. Surely, Chenko is a survivor of child sexual abuse. She grew up in a loving home and community in Orem, Utah. After serving a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Taiwan, she.
She married her husband, Steve Washenko. They're the parents of two wonderful children. Shirley received both her undergraduate and graduate degrees in piano performance at Brigham Young University. She's the owner and founder of an online piano studio that serves students globally. Shirley is passionate about helping survivors feel empowered to write their own stories and contribute.
[00:02:00] To the world in meaningful ways as they embrace and live principles of healing through Jesus Christ. She believes in the power that living these principles has and bringing healing to survivors, families and communities.
This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel? Of Jesus Christ. I'm Morgan Pearson and I am honored to have Shirley Washenko on the podcast today. Shirley, welcome. Thank you, Morgan. I really feel grateful for this opportunity, so thank you so much.
Well, I. Years ago, spoke with Sage Williams, and Sage and Shirley wrote a book together, the book that we mentioned in the intro, and it is remarkable. Congratulations on having put something together that I'm sure will bless so many people, and I'm excited [00:03:00] to kind of be able to shine a light on it today.
Shirley. I wanna start out, you are a survivor of sexual abuse. I obviously don't want you to have to dig up memories for our conversation, but in the book it says, because of Jesus Christ, healing is not only possible, but it is the process by which we learn to actualize our divine potential and become our highest, most authentic divine selves.
End quote. I wondered for you having gone through. I think that's the thing that's so interesting. I having interviewed Sage before, yeah. I knew she was passionate about this work, but she also has not been through what you've been through Shirley. Yeah. So how have you found that statement in the book to be true?
And how has the savior been the way that you found healing? Thanks Morgan. It really was just a sacred [00:04:00] privilege to do this resource with Sage to write this book with Sage and has been such a gift. And to answer your question, I just, I can't adequately articulate the power of. Coming to know in my life that I, because I am an eternal daughter of heavenly parents who was created to become like them, that because of that, I am worth healing.
I wasn't intended to forever be broken. And damaged and wounded. I wasn't intended to ever be stuck there, but they have provided the way to become like them, for me to fulfill the measure of my creation. And that has been so and and is so powerful every day of my life. And that is because of Jesus Christ.
He is. The way and the first time that I really came to understand the power of [00:05:00] his impact in my life was in the MTC as I was beginning missionary service to Taiwan. And I will never forget coming to understand and know that my life is a witness of him, is a witness of his power and reading in 35 11 about.
How he invited one by one, each of those people to come and feel and see and know that that was an invitation to me, that because of him, I could really come to feel and see and know that he is. Christ through how I experience his healing and through living the power that he's in my life. And I just came to feel so powerfully that that is an invitation to every single one of us.
In fact, my mission scripture is indoctrinate in Covenant 68, 5 and [00:06:00] six and it just, I'll just read just a part of it, just says, wherefore be of good cheer and do not fear for I the Lord am with you. We'll stand by you and you shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.
And I just feel that so deeply and personally and passionately that that is the opportunity that we have as we live his power and experience. His power is to be witnesses of him and to bear record of him. I love the way you put that and I think it's interesting for me, thinking back to being a missionary and honestly like thinking about people that I've known since then in the years since, but how everybody's gone through different things and we all bring those things that we've [00:07:00] experienced, the hard and the bad and the good as well.
We bring all of those things and those are the things. That make us witnesses of him. And I think the way that you put that is so beautiful and maybe a perfect feed in to the next question that I wanted to ask you. Sage said that this book is not just for people that. Have survived sexual abuse, that they're, the principles in this book can be helpful to anyone to aid any sort of healing.
Yeah, and I think that's something that all of us need. We all need to be healed from something. So the book says this, all of us are wounded in some way and are in need of God's healing balm. I wondered, Shirley, if you could speak to the power of these principles and how you've seen their ability to, to aid in any kind of healing.
Yeah. I think something that has been really sweet for us is [00:08:00] the responses of people who aren't survivors and just kind of their surprise that like, I read this to just learn more and I can't believe how much this applies to me in my own life, and I have really. Come to feel that if a principle is true, that it applies everywhere.
And if we're trying to find exceptions, it's probably because we don't understand the principle well enough and we don't really understand the full truth of it. And I think that applies here. It's obviously, it's been applied to sexual abuse and in ways that helps us see clearly. Um. Really specific ways that it can apply to us as well as survivors or not survivors.
Um, and then I just really appreciate how you acknowledge that all of us are in need of healing and, and also that we become witnesses of Christ as we practice and experience him through his power to heal. And [00:09:00] I think that's such a. Connecting and unifying principle, not pointing to others and being like, oh, you are the broken one.
I'm all good. Like you've got healing. But seeing that all of us are in this and that every knee bows and seeks the healing of the savior and is in need of his power to heal from the pain we cause and the pain that's caused. To us, both small and big. So it's also really interesting to note that the word for heal and save in the New Testament come from the same Greek word soso.
And so when we talk about the salvation that we can receive from from Christ, another way of saying it is the healing that we can receive from Christ. I, I know that in my own home I. Doing this work, of course, feels so passionately about these principles and, and have experienced it so [00:10:00] personally, the power of them.
And so I speak of that. I, I see healing as the work of becoming like God, the work of change and repair. I talk about repentance. As the work of healing, um, I see the principles of healing as really eternal principles that we get to practice to become like our heavenly parents, and that as we do that we become more whole and more connected to God and ourselves and the human family and more filled with lightened truth, more confident and we're able to walk with greater strength and not fear.
And that's. That's who I want to become. That's the work that I'm in each day and also how I want to treat and teach my kids. So I love just knowing that I, even the word repentance. Being able to say, this is the work of healing each day, looking at my wounded places and being able to confront those and [00:11:00] live in accountability to them, bring them to light, and then work to heal and do the work of repair.
So yes, I do believe these principles are so applicable to all of us. So well said. I wanna highlight one thing that you said early on in your answer where you said that these, if a principle is true, it applies to everyone. I have always loved something that Sister Patricia Holland talks about in her book.
A Quiet Heart. Yeah. She talks about how the adversary would have us put up walls between one another. He seeks to divide. But the savior wants us to see that we're all more the same than we are different. And I think that that is, um. I think that that is why those principles, you know, when you get down to what we're all here learning, we're all here, here learning the same thing [00:12:00] and the way that we learn those things may be different.
But I think that's the reason when you're sitting in like a Relief society classroom, I think sometimes it's like, oh, well that girl, she just got into relief society and I'm like a elderly woman and I can't relate to her at all. And in reality, I think we all can relate to one another. So I love. That you highlighted that so beautifully said Morgan.
Yeah. Surely one thing that I love that you all have done in this book is you show how these gospel principles, um, are all found. In healing, but maybe not in the way that we traditionally think about them. So, for example, talk about how having charity and being forgiving it does not necessarily mean staying silent.
Extending mercy doesn't mean that you don't say anything and just go about as if nothing ever happened. One quote that I love in the book referring to [00:13:00] forgiveness. Elder Neil l Anderson said this, forgiveness is not excusing accountability or failing to protect ourselves, our families, and other innocent victims.
Forgiveness is not continuing in a relationship with someone who is not trustworthy. Forgiveness is not dismissing the hurt or disgust we feel because of the actions of others. Forgiveness is not forgetting, but remembering in peace. So I wondered why do you feel like some of these principles are so often misunderstood?
Yeah, I know just for myself, it was so hard to. Understand how my experience and what I was living, like the reality could fit into the principles of the gospel, how I heard them, and how culturally they felt, um, talked about and it felt so. Impossible. How can I [00:14:00] exist in all of this without minimizing myself, without minimizing my experience, without minimizing what I'm living and these challenges?
And if when you heard that quote from Elder Anderson, you were surprised I was too. I'll never forget reading that in his book and just feeling. A lot of surprise and also such a sense of relief like I can belong here, that can allow space for my experience, the reality of everything that I am living, and that felt.
Like such a beautiful gift to start to think about what is forgiveness in this more accurate light that allows for my experience. And I think a lot of us, myself included, have really misunderstood forgiveness. And in the book we go through line by line each. Each part of [00:15:00] that quote and how it applies and why those things are not forgiveness, and then we turn to the words of Christ.
The word most used when describing. What he taught about forgiveness is the word aimi and its root definition is to let go, to lay aside, to set out a distance, to set loose, to set free. And then we apply specifics of what that can look like in our lives. What does it mean to let go, to lay aside, to sit at a distance, to set free and, and how can we live that?
So. Such a powerful quote that really again, teaches us more truth about a principle so that we can better understand its application to each of us, to all of us. And you asked why. Why are these things understood? I think there are a few things culturally. There [00:16:00] is such a, we use forgiveness in a way that really demands silence and it demands having a relationship with an offender who may not be safe.
Not always, but often. Really often. And it, the offender may be silencing their victim or not living in a place of accountability and honesty. They may be demanding forgiveness themselves, right, and, and saying you should. Be pressuring, they are pressuring a relationship, so that is is really tricky. It's can often feel like in our culture that speaking up means you are not forgiving, you're not kind, you are carrying a lot of baggage from the past, and you're not willing to let go.
You're not willing to forgive and forget is what we hear often, right? And you are still not healing and you're, you're just wounded and broken and so. When you want to be somebody who is Christlike and who [00:17:00] is forgiving and loving and kind, that can be really painful to hear those kinds of messaging. I also think another reason is that we can culturally have a, a.
Just a pressure to present an image that things are great, that we are happy, and the gospel of Jesus Christ makes us really happy and it resolves all problems without really addressing them because we are, we're good and I. We know that's not true. The scriptures don't tell that story. The prophets don't, don't speak that.
They tell us that that is not true. That they live their own experiences that of pain and, and struggle. And yet I think still we can feel this pressure to present an image of, of what that looks like. That is just happiness. And really what that does is. It puts a huge pressure and responsibility on the survivors [00:18:00] to what we'll use as forgive to really not address their experiences.
I think really that the, we use forgiveness to avoid doing the hard work of looking at things that are uncomfortable and ugly. We use it to avoid living in accountability to the truth and to avoid looking at ourselves and our own wounds and fears. It's an easier way to, to get to the outcome that we think we want right to which is everything's good and there's no ruptures.
There's nothing is wrong here. But the problem is when you skip the healing process, you really can't create, you can only create the illusion. Of the outcome that you want, not the real thing. So forgiveness really cannot bypass the work of healing, but is a fruit of healing. And when we use it, [00:19:00] otherwise, it ends up silencing the victims and erasing the realities of their experiences, and it doesn't allow.
For the perpetrator of any offense, the needed work of honesty and accountability that is required to heal and change. So it, we'll talk about it as weaponizing forgiveness, and I think it can feel like the easier thing to do. To get an outcome that we want without doing the hard work that is required for the, the true outcome that we want.
That is true healing and, and authenticity and trust and safety. It makes me think of, and this is probably a bad analogy, but like when you're cleaning your house Yeah. And you just start like stashing stuff places. It looks clean. Yep. Um, but it's really a mess. Deposits underneath. Yeah. [00:20:00] Um, and, and you have to deal with that later.
Um, and I actually, that made me realize, Shirley, thinking about that, that there's a question that I didn't write down that I've like to ask you. What is, I think a lot of times we discuss about like generational. Trauma. Trauma. Yeah. And kind of the, what are the consequences for later generations if these things are not taken care of and healed?
Could you speak to that at all? Absolutely. I feel so deeply passionately about this just because I have seen in my own life when we are in that place of wounding. So we hear. That terminology hurt people. Hurt people, and that's very true hurt. People do hurt people, and when we choose to not heal, we continue that wounding.
And so [00:21:00] I've seen in my own life the power that it gives to the people around me, especially the people I care the most about my kids. My family, what I am creating right here in my own home. When they see an example of. Healing of confronting wounds. They learn that it's okay to be broken. It's okay to have fears and insecurities and to to talk openly about these things and to not be afraid of them.
That because of Jesus Christ, we can heal and change. It's okay to not be perfect, that the appearance is not what we're going for. And when we don't do that, when we live in a place of hiding and, and not addressing those things. The trauma does continue. I think all of us, like we've talked about, all of us have.
Difficult things that we experience, and the reality is we choose how we respond to those we choose. Do we walk a path of healing and [00:22:00] and change, or do we become hardened and continue? The damage. And that is the beauty of agency. That's the beauty of why Christ came to enable that healing path so that we don't have to continue that general generational trauma.
We can choose healing and then that works forwards and backwards as well. That heals those to come and it helps to heal the past. And I've seen that in people so close to me that I'm so close to that as they have walked really. Difficult paths of healing, confronting really, really difficult things, how it completely changes their children and their children's, their kids' stories.
And that is, that means everything I. Thank you so much. The second chapter of the book is about uncovering wounds. I think sexual abuse can be [00:23:00] controversial at times because many people often don't talk about it until much later, especially if it's something that happened to them as a child. What would you say to those?
Who would say to somebody, why are you bringing this up? Why would you choose to dig up that pain? Why not continue to to. You know, just live your life as you've been living it. You've seemed fine. Yeah. How would you respond to, yeah, to somebody that says that? Well, first, I have heard those messages myself.
I know those messages personally. And also I know the fear of addressing the things, these really difficult things, and I think that fear is therefore. A few reasons. I think it's really scary to look at things that you don't know what you're gonna find. And honestly, there's such a strong messaging culturally about the hopelessness for survivors as well.
I remember hearing that over and over, and [00:24:00] not within our church as much as outside of the church as well. Like this forever impact and this forever woundedness. And that feels scary as a survivor. And then you hear things like you're gonna keep wounding and you're gonna keep, and you feel. Stuck and powerless and it feels really terrifying.
And then you don't know what the implications could be. What is the fallout? What is the rejection? How can I still find belonging in these circles if I address the these things? Because like we know over 90% of abuse is done by somebody who we trust. So it's in our families, it's in our close intimate circles, and when we address it.
What, what will that mean and what kind of ruptures will that create? And that is scary. Then I think there's also just this really intense pressure that I've mentioned to make everything okay, and that really falls on the shoulders of the victims. [00:25:00] I know for myself, just hearing messages of like, if you think it's hard for you, imagine how much harder it is for my perpetrator and, and really like he became a victim to what he had perpetrated because of the horror of.
Of all of it. And so I internalized that I had to be okay. Any problem that I had caused him more pain, caused my family more pain. Any small or big thing that wasn't exactly right. And so we internalized so much pressure that we have to be okay and we have to be silent. In order for our families and our perpetrator and our communities to be.
Okay. And then lastly, I would say that we also want to believe often that we aren't impacted. And that's a nice belief too, because if we believe that, then our families can be okay and we don't have to create those ruptures. And so [00:26:00] it feels scary and. Easier to just kind of say It's okay. I'm just, I'm just fine.
But my quick answer to somebody who is confronting this and what I had to come to know for myself is that you are worth it. You are worth healing and becoming your most divine, true, whole, complete self. You are worth speaking your story. Your voice really does matter. Your story really matters and your healing really matters and why?
I think. Like we just talked about with your question of why does that matter? It impacts your home, it impacts the community around you. I am a different person. I get to work with the young women in my stake, and I am a different person as I stand before them and witness of Jesus Christ [00:27:00] because of what I have lived.
Because I chose to confront, confront really dark and ugly things, and I keep trying to choose that every day. And so. That is the power and beauty of walking that path that looks scary and unknown and it is scary, and yet the power and beauty and, and impact of it is. You, you cannot measure it. And then the power in our communities, if we want to create communities of safety and trust where people are seen and they can bring their full selves, we can be a part of that by sharing our stories and by bringing our full selves.
And the more light and truth we can bring, the greater safety and trust we can bring, the more advocacy that we can live and, and we can create. Those communities where people can feel a, a great sense of belonging and safety, and that's, [00:28:00] that's what I want to be a part of. Maybe I'll just share quickly. I remember just after beginning the initial research of this book, I really wanted to live these principles and, and knew that if I wanted to engage in this work, that I, I needed to live these principles.
And so I decided on one light, the world December day to share my story in a more public, on a more public platform, and really just as a witness of. Of Jesus Christ and trying to give a witness for hope in, for healing in these dark places that we don't talk about. And it wasn't, uh, there was no identifying my perpetrator or any kind of desire in any of that.
But the blowback and the response, not publicly, but privately, was so incredibly difficult and so, so [00:29:00] painful, and I reached this moment where I really just wanted to take it down and just go back into not not talking about it and not not speaking anything. And a really dear sister said to me, Shirley, if this can even impact one person you love.
Is it worth it? And the truth was, yes, it was worth it. It was worth if, if somebody else could feel seen and could feel hope. And we know statistically, these people are all around us, one in three, one in four people. And so they, this is in our families. This is in wealthy families and poor families, and successful families, and not successful.
However we want to label it. It's here. And it's now, it's among us. And so if our story can help one person to feel like they can come out of the darkness and that they can experience healing, and that they can come to know Jesus Christ, [00:30:00] then it's worth it. And it is. It is worth it. It is God's work of salvation.
Shirley, thank you so much. Um, thanks for sharing such a personal experience. The book states that sexual abuse is so damaging because the perpetrator violated two of the gifts God gave us to become like him, our agency, and our physical bodies. It is such a personal wound because these gifts are central to our divine identity and to realizing our potential.
I love the way that you put that. I think that boiling it down to, you know, these are two things that were critical to our Heavenly Father's plan, and both of those things are violated in these instances. I wondered what difference has understanding and learning to embrace the gift of agency made for you, and what's the balance between reaching out to trusted [00:31:00] friends and family for advice?
Who may have an important perspective for you to consider, but also embracing your own agency and learning to trust yourself. I think background on this is, I think sometimes it can be, it can feel hard because it's like, well, so and so that I know loves me is saying kind of what you said. Like if you think this is hard for you, imagine how hard it is for your perpetrator.
Yeah. But you yourself feel. Compelled to do something to progress in your healing. So, so what, what difference has embracing agency made for you and, and what is that balance? Yeah. Oh man, I, I think growing up. There was just a lot of messaging around agency that it was like the cause of pain, like oh darn agency.
There was almost this fear of, of people [00:32:00] using agency to do a lot of harm, and the reality is, is that. That's true, right? But I had kind of this negative perspective on it, and I, as I came to see myself more honestly and really confronting my wounds, and I felt so stuck. I saw the impact of what I had experienced in my own life, and I wanted something different.
I did not want to continue. Causing the trauma and the damage. I wanted something different for my kids and for my marriage and for the people that I loved and for myself. And I remember one day as a few years into really trying to confront these things, I had received a message from my perpetrator that just was really clear that anyone.
Given his same exact circumstances, all things considered, would've likely done the same thing. And I remember reading that and it was very in line with the messaging [00:33:00] I had heard and internalized for, for so much of my life. But I didn't want to be that right. And I remember thinking, except. Agency and it was like this complete change in coming to understand that because of Jesus Christ who enabled the gift of agency, I don't have to be forever broken.
I don't have to keep causing wounds to others. I can heal and I get to be accountable. That was another scary word, but I get to be accountable for that healing. I get to be accountable for the person I'm becoming and what a powerful and gifted thing, uh, gift that is in my life. And at the same time, there is, like you mentioned, there is a lot of messaging that we're hearing that is so hard.
How do we take all of this in and what do [00:34:00] we do with it? And it's still something I'm practicing for sure. Really, all of these things are things I still practice. It's not mastered by any sense, but I think knowing that there is a lot of value in hearing others' perspectives, we don't have to be afraid of it.
Because we do have blind spots, and I think we begin not to be as afraid of it when we come to trust ourselves more and when we practice trusting ourselves more. In other words, I can hear messaging people offer and give, and I can internalize that and. And really look at it and say, what of this feels right and good to me, and what of this really applies here?
And I think that's a powerful thing and a good practice to say, I can sit in this space and listen to these things. And that is a. Good, mature thing to do. And also I can trust [00:35:00] myself to know what is true and right and best for me. And then another thing that is really powerful is entering those spaces with curiosity about ourselves.
So what do I feel when I'm hearing this messaging? What do I feel? When this person is speaking, am I feeling pressure or am I feeling trusted? And am I feeling empowered? Am I feeling more fear and afraid of, of what it, what could be or do I feel more strong and secure? And then also considering what are the potential motives behind this?
Counsel or advice or message that I'm receiving, is their motive to control or preserve an image of something? Or is this person really invested in empowering me to become my best and most whole self? Are they really wanting the best thing for my, for me, or is [00:36:00] there investment in. In, in creating something that will protect them or another person.
And I think being able to sit back and consider all of those things and then understand that a lot of the messaging we we receive is an exposure of those relationships and exposure of things that we are experiencing. And it's just information. It's information that we can take in and say, you know, what is true here?
What applies? To me, what do I feel in my heart and with God is, is something I can learn and, and take from this? And what can I leave and say that that isn't applicable or that that doesn't resonate with my soul? I think one thing that you said, Shirley, that I, I think is interesting is, is thinking about.
When we're kind of evaluating Yeah. Where these [00:37:00] things are coming from and recognizing that sometimes people, I think, that love us and who are, it's not ill intentioned, um, but they may not even realize where it's coming from. And so I think that. These things can get so complicated sometimes because it feels like, well, you don't wanna start a harboring frustration toward everyone that you know, like my whole family is against me.
But recognizing, kind of going back to that idea of generational trauma, that sometimes people don't even realize that they're. Concerned about appearance because that's just what their family has done for generations. Yeah. That you can be the one that says like, no, we're not, I'm not gonna be concerned about that.
Another thing that I wanted to touch on that I thought was so interesting as I went through the book, and maybe it's because thinking about the, the [00:38:00] war chapters of the Book of Mormon, people often, you know, call Al Alma and Heman like, oh, it's just a bunch of wars. Like, why is that even in the Book of Mormon?
And this book quotes so heavily from the book of Alma. Yeah. And not just one story, but many stories throughout that book. So I wondered how did you and Sage decide to use Alma and to lean so heavily on that book with the principles that are taught in, in your book? Yeah. I. Really love the Book of Mormon.
I love how the Book of Mormon has helped me come to know who Jesus Christ is on a much more personal and intimate level and understand the gospel, the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ more clearly, it's our restoration scripture, right? And Alma is just particularly fantastic in, in allowing us to walk this.[00:39:00]
Quite intimately this journey of somebody who is described as the vastest of sinners and described himself as murdering the children of God or leading their souls to destruction, right? That's how he described his own actions we're. We're talking somebody who has done really egregious harm. We get to watch so closely how he is goes from being in a place of blindness, not addressing, can't see himself, is not aware of the damage that he's causing.
And his father who prays for him to come to a knowledge of the truth and we. We talk about that is really praying for him to come to clarity about his state of being, about the truth about himself, about really seeing the harm that he's causing and how that prayer is answered, right? And Alma does come to see, and it causes him such pain that he wants to hide.
And I think we know we can relate to those feelings. [00:40:00] That is Alma experiencing accountability, experiencing really the justice of the choices that he has made and the person that he has become. And then we see him that very justice leading him to the mercy of Jesus Christ, and we see who he becomes, not somebody who ever needs to hide from his story.
He never is pretending that that wasn't his past. Instead, he uses it to witness of Jesus Christ. So we see this beautiful example of healing of somebody who has lived. Being a perpetrator of egregious harm and then who lives accountability and then continues to live in the truth of his story and using it to witness as Jesus Christ witness for Jesus Christ.
So I do, I love the story of Alma and the hope that it comes, that it brings to me that I [00:41:00] can be that kind of witness that I can live in the truth of my story. And what a gift it. It changes how we see accountability, right? That what a gift, that we can be brought to a knowledge of the truth, that we can look at ourselves and look at our wounds and not be afraid of that because that is what enables healing.
So his story really does teach, just turn some of these gospel principles to help us see more completely and more. Truthfully, their power and their, this, the power that they have in our lives and in these really difficult situations that we confront. We also use the story of the, an, the, an lehi and reference just here.
These were people who had experienced a. Mighty change, complete change. Entirely different people, and they lived in the truth of their whole stories. They were accountable to that truth always. As they were [00:42:00] seeking to find refuge among the the knee fights, they said, we know that we have murdered these people and we are willing to accept really unjust repercussions because of that.
And they were not trying to hide it or be afraid or like we're changed, we're good. We're, you know, you've gotta just accept us and forgive us, and, and go on. They lived in the truth of that story all throughout. And why? Because they knew God, they weren't afraid of it. Because they knew they were Gods eternally.
They weren't afraid of death because they knew that they were wrapped in his arms eternally. So yeah, the Book of Mormon Alma's story, the Anti Lehigh's. Um, we also referenced Paul's story in the Bible. Just such meaningful, powerful examples of people who have lived these paths of healing. And because they have done that, they have become the greatest witnesses of the savior.[00:43:00]
In the history, in our written history, it's so meaningful. You, you just said something to the effect of, of wrapped in, in the arms of the savior and, and being free kind of, of, of fear. And I will be completely honest with you, Shirley, and say that as a mom of young girls, I think that the stats related to sexual abuse, I feel like.
It can be really easy for me to approach them from a place of fear. Yeah. You are a mom yourself. Yeah. So how do you approach this information without feeling fearful? Yeah. Morgan, that was such a great question and I just relate to that fear so much. It felt honestly crippling, like trying to control every single thing and do it exactly right because of so much fear.
And the, what was [00:44:00] really surprising to me is as I actually started to look at myself and my wounds and confront my experience more, honestly, I felt more empowered. Less fear. So instead of that causing me to be like, oh, this is so horrific, it was actually like, no, I am walking a journey of healing and I'm not afraid of creating space for others' journeys of healing.
Like that's a beautiful thing. It also really changed how I saw the purpose of life, that it's not to avoid. Pain. It's not to control everything and avoid all possible pain that might happen, that pain is going to happen, but that the purpose is who we are becoming in that. And it doesn't mean that we don't try to do what we can, but when we change our whole paradigm of like, my goal isn't to just.
Like avoid everything is actually to teach and to exemplify [00:45:00] what living, healing and what becoming is instead of this, this fear. Um, and I think as we do that, that absolutely includes educating, right, and practicing educating about. Healthy sexuality about our bodies, all of these things, and there are so many great resources to do that with our children.
It includes educating about consent, educating about boundaries. There are ways every day that we can practice that. My daughter came home just this week and had had some really hard experiences with a friend at that felt so hard to her with a friend. And, and was feeling manipulated and controlled and pressured by this friend and talking through that.
So what does that feel like and what do you think your responsibility is there? Do you think that you need to manage her fears and manage her and, and be. Just make everything good for her, or what do you feel like is right and good for you? So there are just [00:46:00] opportunities every day to practice that. So I think whether our kids are really small or as they're growing, that we can practice these things with them and educate them and, and then just obviously underlying all of that.
Working from a place of empowerment I ourselves and helping to empower our kids instead of instill fear in them. And that's something that I work on. And you know what? Sometimes Morgan, I fail and I can go to my kids and I can say, you know what, that was me just reacting out of fear and being afraid.
And I'm sorry, that's about mom. That's not on you. That's me. And so he, let's look at a better way to, to address this or to. Talk about this, and that's something that I have to practice because it's something that I continue to confront and deal with. I love the way that you put that. And I would be curious, um, if you and Sage have recommendations of [00:47:00] resources and maybe we could put some of that in show notes that could be helpful to people and Absolutely.
And kind preparing their children. Yeah. I want to touch on one last thing before we get to our last question, and I am gonna be honest with you, Shirley. I am not sure. I will word this the right way. So I, but I have found it interesting both in the book and I'll read a quote, but also in this conversation, how you've talked about how we are meant to become, we're meant to learn certain things, and then in the book it says, I've come to.
See you wrote this specifically. I've come to see that what I previously considered contradictory, even dichotomous, uh, for example, grief and joy, broken and whole victim and conquer is not actually mutually exclusive, but instead mutually dependent. It is the duality that actually enables us to become more complete and whole and more like our heavenly parents.
So my [00:48:00] question is. And when we're talking about all of these things, it almost sounds like you're grateful for this terrible thing that happened to you. Is that the way that you would put it or would you put it a different way? I love this question because it really gives me the opportunity to just kind of talk for a second about, um, like maybe I'll just reframe the question.
First. Okay. A little bit and then, and then respond. I think sometimes in how we talk about things, we can intimate or maybe be overt about it, messaging that says something bad was meant to happen. I know I've had said to me like this was, this is a part of your mission. This is a part of your family's mission.
This was meant to be for you. That actually doesn't align with what we believe about agency or about our loving heavenly parents. We don't believe that they will bad things to happen to [00:49:00] us because we need them or something like that. What we do believe is that we can choose how we respond. Right, and we've talked about how.
There are hard things happening all over and people choose. I love Elder Reland talking in general conference in 2021 about infuriating unfairness, right? These things happen and we can choose our response, and so sometimes in our messaging when we suggest or. There's underlying messaging that something is good because a bad thing has become good because of someone's response.
It. I think two things that can undermine the reality of the experience for that person, the difficulty and the gravity and the pain of it. And secondly, it minimizes how they've chosen to respond and to respond and the importance [00:50:00] of that, like their accountability in their response. And so I would definitely say that I.
Feel such gratitude for the truths I have come to know that shape me as a person and as a human, as a child of God, I feel deep gratitude for the Savior I have come to know. And. I, I can say that with my whole heart, and I don't, there's a, maybe I'll just read one quote in the book that I think is really powerful, says, the beauty I am creating from the ashes of my life does not justify the sexual abuse I suffered.
It does not take away the loss or make the wrong right. Being hurt is not what expanded my capacity to love. It is my choice to forgive, to turn to Christ and embrace my agency to heal. That is refining me into the glorious being [00:51:00] I am as a child of God with limitless potential to love and be loved. So I think that really articulately states how I feel that pain does not create good or does not make something right.
And. Also that we can choose to become and glorious beings as a child of God in how we choose to respond and how we choose to heal. That quote from the book is so, so powerful and I appreciate Shirley, you sharing your testimony and your experience. I think that there's something really powerful about seeing principles lived and you are an example of that you have have put in the work to.
Take these principles and apply them, and I don't think there's anything much more inspiring than that. So thank you [00:52:00] so much for taking the time to share all of this with us. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Oh, Morgan, thank you. And I, I guess I'll just say I'm trying, it's a work every day.
Um, but I love this question and I have thought about it, and what keeps coming to me are just the words itself all in. All in with my full self, my full story. Um, again referencing Alma, the an tiny fi highs who brought their full selves and they were changed because of that and they used their full selves, then their full stories, all that they were to be witnesses of Jesus Christ and to do his work.
That I don't have to hide or manufacture an image. I can walk with integrity, with confidence in the whole and complete story of [00:53:00] all that I am, um, and then use that to witness of Jesus Christ and for me. I think especially applied here, that's what it means to be all in, bring my full self and my full story and use that to witness of our savior.
Thank you so much, Shirley. Thank you.
We are so grateful to Shirley Washenko for joining us. On today's episode, you can find the book that Shirley co-authored with Sage Williams titled Healing at. Your sexual abuse in Deseret bookstores Now, we are grateful as always, to Derrick Campbell of Mix at six studios for his help with this and every episode of this podcast, and we're grateful to you for continuing to listen.
We'll look forward to being with you again next week.