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[00:00:00] During his first semester at what is now Utah Valley University, Corby Campbell did a back flip off a wall, something he had done many times before, but this time he slipped. He hit the back of his neck and ended up face down on his belly. He has lived his life since in a power wheelchair. His wife Tess, fell in love with him long after this incident, and they recently wrote a book about their love story titled A Wheely Awkward Romance.
And while the title might sound pretty punny, I found the book to be really enlightening. It felt relatable, but also allowed me to learn so much from a life experience that felt very different than my own. But as LaVar Burton would say on Reading Rainbow, you don't have to take my word for it. I think you'll get a sense for Tess and Corby's personality simply from their book bio, and then I'll let them take it away from there.
Tess and Corby wrote. This [00:01:00] book, but writing isn't usually their thing. They're two ordinary people living their lives. Corby, having spent the last 20 years in a wheelchair and Tess having dealt with less outwardly obvious struggles. Corby is a software developer and amateur public speaker on topics such as resilience and gratitude.
He even does occasional sit down comedy gigs, tests, juggles creative projects inside jobs, and mostly tries to keep their lives from descending into chaos. They have spent years statistically proving that they are evenly matched at strategic board games. They also play video games, construct Lego sets and host elaborate murder mystery parties.
This list probably makes them sound like nerdy teenagers, but they are in fact adults proven by the fact that someone let them have a Costco membership. They own a house in Utah that is haunted by a sprinkler system, Poltergeist. This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the court. What does it really [00:02:00] mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have Corby and Tess Campbell on the line with me today, Corby and Tess, welcome. Thank you. Well, I, I told. I told Tess and Corby this before we started, but I feel like it's important for listeners to know that I feel like we are very good friends and Tess and Corby have no idea who I am.
They're like, who is this woman? But I just, I think the reason that I feel that way, and I think it's a credit to, to you both, is that this book that you've written is so personal. And I will be honest, I told, I told a coworker this morning, I was like, it was so interesting reading the book because at times I felt uncomfortable, but I also couldn't put it down like I wanted to read the whole book.
And I don't always do that. Like my goal as a, as a [00:03:00] host of this podcast is always to read at least half the book and I read the entire thing. I wanted to know every bit of what happened in your story and how the two of you ended up together. So my first question for you though is did you have any hesitations about sharing so many personal things in this book?
And why did you decide that it was important to share so many personal things, and what helped you overcome maybe any hesitation you might have had in that department? So I never intended on publishing this book. I initially started writing it because two different ladies approached Corby separately on two different days.
Because they could see that he's in a wheelchair and they must have been dating somebody with a disability of some kind. 'cause they both asked Corby like, Hey, are you married? Can I talk to your wife? I have some questions for her. And both times I wasn't with Corby [00:04:00] and I wasn't available to be like, to be brought into the conversation.
Right. And so I just wished that I had had. Corby had my experiences written down so that he could just hand them to these ladies and say, you know what? This is her experience. You can read that. And when I first met Corby, I was looking for something like this book. I remember doing an Amazon search for a book written by somebody who had dated someone in a wheelchair.
I looked for blogs and I remember finding one that was really frustrating to me. It was a man and a woman who were married and she was writing stuff about something separate. Not about the wheelchair. And then she just offhand mentioned like, oh yeah. And then my husband's caregivers came over to help him with his bedtime routine.
And I was like, no, no, no, no. Talk more about that. I wanna know about that. That's what I'm looking for. And she never right, went into detail about it. And so I just wanted something written down. That I could hand off to people that were sharing that situation. [00:05:00] And so I was originally planning on only self printing, like 20 copies and giving them out.
Okay. And I don't know if I would've written it less open. Knowing how many people might be reading it in the future. So it's probably a good thing that I didn't know. But also this is the less open version than we were planning on the original drafts were more open than this version was. Okay, so this actually doesn't have as many details as I was willing to share.
I think that God gave us some of these experiences so that we could share them and not keep them to ourselves. So I don't mind people knowing. I hope it helps somebody. So how did you end up publishing it?
Series of dominoes set up by God. Um, yeah, the, the, uh, 'cause she looked into, like in order to get published, you need to have a history of publishing books. Mm-hmm. You have to have a following of like 500,000 people. You have to be an expert in your, your subject, whatever. There's all sorts of different things like that and or, and you need to like get a [00:06:00] writing edit or a literary agent.
Literary agent, and they have to submit it for two years and blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm. And we're like, we don't meet any of those criteria. We're just random people. Um, I was actively looking, I had written of. This was like draft four and I was like, this is good enough, I can just print it. And we had budgeted to print it ourselves, just a few copies of it.
And so I was actively looking for a person to help me format it for printing online. A lady that we've known for like 10 years saw us ask for beta readers on Facebook and she happened to have worked in the past for Shadow Mountain Publishing. And so she sent a copy to him, the head of Shadow Mountain Publishing.
Um, and I knew she was going to, but I didn't think it would go anywhere. And then he actually didn't want to read it. It was one of my favorite emails. He sent us an email and he basically, you know, quickly paraphrasing, he said, like, looking at the title, I knew it was gonna be awful. And I, I wanted to read it just to have a laugh at the author's expense.
But then I read just a little bit and I was hooked and I love it and I wanna publish it, like, or, or [00:07:00] help you publish it even. He was really noble about it. So it was kind of fun to get. Him going in with the expectation like, I don't wanna like this. Yeah. And it And was that Chris Inger? Yes. Yeah. I love Chris Inger.
Yeah. Like once, yeah. We said what twice. Um, he's a great guy. The hardest part about that for B was that I never intended to profit off of this. I just wanted to give it out. And so I am not motivated by the money or. Really anything. I just assume that God has a plan that wouldn't be on the scope of our plan and it's in his hands now, so, so cool.
Well, I'm excited for people to read it and I, I want to maybe back up just a little bit because the way that the book is set up, we hear the majority of the time from you, Tess, from your point of view and your perspective, which I think is awesome. But I, I realized that I, as I went through the [00:08:00] book and then was looking at Corby, your website, I was intrigued by something that you said in your testimony.
You have your testimony written on your website. You said happiness is not determined by the forces acting upon us. Happiness is a choice. I imagine that there are. A lot of complex feelings after an accident like yours. So I wondered if you could, could tell us a little bit about kind of your experience immediately following the back flip, right.
That resulted in, in your, was 18 and a half at the time was 2004, just doing a back flip off a wall. My first semester of college outside of high school is what it was and just landed wrong and it's something I, I've been able to do back flips, running up the wall for like three years. But yeah, it just, uh, that, that happiness is a, a choice.
I know it's not, it's not really that straightforward, right? You don't just wake up in the morning and be decide like, I'm gonna be happy regardless, and then you [00:09:00] are, right? Like, that's, that's not what I mean. It's more a, a, a combination of you, you know, how you decide to approach things and how you look at challenges that come your way.
And not thinking wo is me, but rather like, what am I gonna do about it? And some other principles in this book. But really, when I first broke my neck, I was blessed with a. An abundance of peace and like just knowledge that this is, you know, the plan wasn't ruined. That like this is part of the plan. I, I love that.
It's a, it's a silly tender me mercy I mentioned sometimes, but I got my patriarchal blessing recommend three times before I broke my neck and just for whatever reason, just never followed through until after I broke my neck. At which point I got my patriarchal blessing and there was like assurance that, you know, this was, this was meant to be.
And so, but like just by choosing. I don't like wallowing in sadness, right? And so, of course, there's things that are much harder to do or that life is gonna look different, but rather than focusing on those, I choose to focus on like what I'm gonna do differently, right? And so I, I acknowledge the sadness [00:10:00] of the things that I miss and the things that are hard.
And then I'm like, okay, that's acknowledged. We've, we've handled that. Now let's move on to what we can do. Um, and that's just, that's, that's what I talk about. What I mean when I say happiness is a choice. It's choosing to focus on. The difference you can make in your life rather than wallow in the sadness of what, what can be.
But you know, it is not never thinking about the sadness, it's just not wallowing in it, so. Right. Well, and I, I think anybody that reads the book will get a sense for the fact that you're a very, I don't know if self-aware is the right word, but I think it's very clear through you and Tess's communication, like you're very aware of your circumstance and all that comes.
It's very culturally intelligent. Well said. Yeah. Yeah. That's the word. That's the word I, not otherwise intelligent, but a little bit of emotional. Yeah. At least you got that going for you. Corby. Some of us have an either. Oh boy Tess. I love [00:11:00] how honest you are in the book. And you share a lot of the many mental hurdles that you kind of had to work through when it came to this relationship, and it was not only as a result of Corby's being confined to a wheelchair, but also your own experience with having and realizing that you have autism.
I wondered if you could share with listeners maybe just a few of the things that were particularly hard for you to work through, and then I know that. When you're publishing for a more secular audience through Shadow Mountain, you're not gonna dwell on the gospel perspective of things, but I wondered how you found yourself working through those things specifically from like a gospel lens.
This is a many part question here. Yeah. I was very honest about my emotions. Yeah. This is like part one here. I. Had [00:12:00] read a few people's experiences online where they claimed that they had never seen the wheelchair when they met somebody for the first time, and I did not relate to that at all. I really, really struggled with that.
And so part of me reading, writing to an audience who was me essentially was, you can struggle with so many questions. So many doubts and so much confusion about a relationship, and it can still work out even if it takes two years to work through that. So yeah, that's why I was so honest and focused on some of the negative feelings that I had because I wanted it to be okay to have those.
And then for context, I'd like to interject. Right? That's that's the thing. You could apply to gospel too, though. It's like you don't have to have. Perfect faith, every moment of it. Like yeah, you can have struggles and still move forward. So anyway, part two. Yeah. Yeah. Really quickly too, I guess, Tess, um, one thing that I thought was interesting is like reading how other people tried to tell you what to do multiple times [00:13:00] and realizing like, I think it's true in a relationship.
I think it's also true, like you said, Corby with our testimonies, but like. It's between you and the other person. It's between you and the person that you're dating, or it's between you and God, but nobody else should be telling you about what to do in the most important relationship of your life. Yeah.
We had people, him telling him stuff too. I'm sure a lot of that isn't in the book. I didn't wanna put people on the spot that didn't want to be part of the book, so. Right. You know, some of that stuff I left out and that's fine. As for the autism part, for context, for people who haven't read it, I did not know.
That I had autism until after meeting Corby. He was the one who was like, something is off about the way that you process things and the way that you communicate and the way that you approach relationships. I really think that you should see a counselor, and he told me that multiple times. He was like, this is just so weird.
Like you are so [00:14:00] different than anybody I've ever gone out with and I still have not gotten a formal diagnosis. And so it's possible that I don't have autism, but it's the, it's the word that we go to for the fastest word to describe what I deal with. Yeah. Yeah. Most of what I deal with is sensory, not the other stuff as much, but maybe that's just wishful thinking.
She's definitely improved too, so it's like, yeah, I've improved a ton. The way that the gospel fits in. 'cause as you said, I did not write about my gospel perspective on this. I didn't want someone to avoid picking up the book because it had like a church flavor to it. So I don't hide the fact that I'm religious and that I go to church.
But I also don't openly just talk about how it's helped or how my beliefs shape how I behave. So. I am extremely grateful that I did not have a diagnosis of any type until I was in my twenties. I grew up in the church [00:15:00] reading scriptures. My favorite scripture in high school was Ether 1227, where if men come unto me, I'll show you them your weakness, you can, I'll help you work through them essentially.
And I, by the time I was in high school, had realized that I was really, really, really bad at talking and interacting with people my own age. And so I just had the attitude that like, oh, this is something I need to work on. I'm gonna work on this. And so I tried to talk to people in like my senior year. I joined a couple of clubs for the first time.
Um, I don't think it went very well, but I tried. And then when I got to college, I started going to social dance classes 'cause it would force me into talking to people and touching other people. 'cause that was something I also struggled with. I hated hugs and I hated everything about everything. It was awful, right?
So I was like, ah, I'm gonna force myself to take a dance class. And I started doing stuff like that, um, because I had the attitude of like, oh, well this is just something that I need to work on and God will help me [00:16:00] work on it. Um, and so I never used a word like autism to excuse myself from working on it.
I never said, you know, like, oh, well I'm just bad at that. I have autism. So I'm not even gonna try kind of thing. And I still have that attitude. Like people will ask about labels 'cause they're fast and easy, but I'm like, I don't really care what I have or don't have. I just recognize that I'm less good at certain things.
And I think that God expects us to work on those things. I remember the first time that Corby read my patriarchal blessing and he started laughing because it described someone who is so totally not who I am. Even now. It was more extreme 10 years ago. It's less extreme now. Um, but it was like God said, here's all your weaknesses.
You're amazing at these things. So he apparently has the expectation that I'm gonna work on these things. Bad at, especially when I was 15 and [00:17:00] still not great at now. So yeah, I think that I approach autism a little bit differently than other people probably would. The other thing is that looking at the weaknesses that God blessed me with, I can also see evidence that he helps make up for those things.
Here's just one. More personal example, but we go to education week every year and just attend some of the classes and that is a, a very difficult environment for me to be in just 'cause there's so many people and so much noise and a lot of movement. It's just a lot of people in one spot. Right? And on this particular day, I was so broken that I had to crawl on Corby's lap 'cause I couldn't walk.
That's how bad I was shaking and stuff. And so he drove me in his wheelchair to the car, which is a massive wheelchair perk. I love that. And we had planned to go out to dinner with somebody that night, one of Corby's best friends, and I was in the car, like I could [00:18:00] barely stand up, right? I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make through, make it through this, uh, dinner date that we have tonight.
And during the education week classes, earlier that day, one of the teachers had mentioned just offhand, like, yeah, the atonement. Jesus, Jesus Christ and the atonement compensate us for some of our weaknesses. And so God is helping you all the time with things that you aren't so good at. Right? And in my head, I remember when I was taking notes, just kind of passively thinking about that and being like, oh, I wonder, I wonder what God helps me with day to day.
Right? And I didn't identify anything in the moment. And then we got to, uh, corby's friend's house and I like fell sideways out of the car. I could barely stand up. I was leaning on the side of the car for support. Um, 'cause this is just what happens to me when I get overstimulated. I kind of lose control of my muscles and it's just how it's always been.
And the second I heard our friend's [00:19:00] voice come out of his front door, it felt like somebody had grabbed me by the back of my shirt and set me up. And plastered a smile on my face and I was completely normal for the entire night. And I remember, I don't remember a voice or anything, but just the impression that I got was, I help you with things all the time.
Like, and you don't even recognize it most like Right. And sorry. After that when people come to our house, 'cause Corby is an extremely social person and I am not. And so for me to accommodate his needs, I have to be more social than I want to be. And now I can recognize my response to my responses to sensory stimulus being held back.
And the second that those people leave, I collapse. And it always lasts just long enough to do what I need to do. [00:20:00] And so, yeah, from a gospel perspective, God gave me these challenges that I didn't realize I even had until I was in my twenties, but he either helps me improve on them or he helps compensate for, you know, the, some of the negative effects that come from them.
So I, I recognize that every day now. And I'm really grateful for that. Well, I think that's beautifully said. It makes me think about like manna and how the Lord gave them just enough for each day and, and I think that so often is our experience that he gives us just enough to get us through whatever it is.
It was interesting to me to note that it seems like some of the things that, that you mentioned just now, um. Are things that would've been when you're dating somebody, it's like, can I handle that long term? Like a need [00:21:00] for being super extroverted? Can I do that long term? Is that sustainable? Um, and I think, think just the wheelchair, it was, we have really, really dramatic differences in our personality.
I don't think I realized how big they were until after we got married, for sure.
Yeah. Well, and I, I think the interesting thing is wheelchair, no wheelchair, autism, or no autism, people listening can probably relate to that, that, that sometimes when you're trying to decide whether or not you want to be with someone forever or you know. You may want to be, but can you be? Um, I think those are all very real things.
Corby, you were incredibly patient, my friend, throughout this experience, and I wondered what helped you to continue to hope and have patience. It seemed to me reading that it was almost like you had had confirmation that Tess was, I don't believe in there being a one, but that Tess was like. A person [00:22:00] that you were supposed to be with.
So tell me a little bit about, about what allowed you to, to continue to hope and have patience. Yeah, I think, uh, a big thing of it was. That I was just blessed with extra patience because like I, I'd had plenty of people when I Tess told me no a lot, you know, those of who end up reading the book, Tess told me to move on quite a few times and I was like, nah, you know, and if any of my friends had come up to me and said like, I'm trying to date this girl, and she's told me in no uncertain terms that I should date other people, what do you think I should do?
And you'd be like, move on dude. Like she told you to move on. Um, but I just like felt blessed with that patience and so I, I didn't ever have. Neither of us ever had a, a confirmation that we should get married. We're, we're jealous of. Yeah. Yeah. We've got married based on a pros and cons list, basically.
Yeah. We're jealous of the type of people that get promptings that it's like, go do this and be at that place at this time, where like, that's not how the Lord works with us. For me, it's mostly, [00:23:00] um, you know, I, I ponder it out. I make my own decision and I pray about it, and I start to move forward. And if I get a no.
The Lord communicates to me with nos like, um, decently often, but it's almost never yeses. And so, and I'd had nos with previous girls. I tried dating, so I knew what that was like, and I, you know, didn't have extra patience with other girls and to, to keep trying even when it wasn't working out well. So that was different and I kind of took the combination of those two plus my deep attraction to all the things that she was, you know, was all like, well.
They're all good things. You'll stop me if I'm wrong. I, I haven't been stopped, so I moved forward. But yeah, it definitely wasn't like a confirmation to move forward, but I definitely recognized and journaled about and, and think that I had extra patience. It's like, this is, this is more patience than I have naturally.
So I think that's the, you know, the compensating power for me too was that, and, and I appreciated it 'cause it got us here and we love being here. Yeah. Um, and one thing that you talk about at the end of the book is this idea [00:24:00] of grieving or mourning dreams or expectations. And I think that that's another thing that is extremely relatable in your story and something that we all have an idea of, this is what it's gonna look like when I'm married, or this is what it's gonna look like when I have kids.
I wondered if you could share with listeners what you've learned about grief in unmet expectations. You first, you first. What? You can go first. I'll go first. Uh, yeah. It's funny because my, my bigger things are not even the wheelchair things. It's it, which is weird to say, but like. I recognized at first.
You know, I, I, I used to play piano and I used to run Inc. Climb things, do parkour type stuff, and I love that. And it's hard to do parkour in a wheelchair. Technically, there's people that do extreme sports in a wheelchair, and I'm just not that hardcore. And so like, I had to like go some of those things.
But like one of the biggest things, I remember having a conversation. I tried [00:25:00] dating, so we didn't get married until I was 30 years old. Or was it, or was it you were engaged When we got married, were engaged. We were 30, yeah. Engaged at 29, married at 30. Um, and I had a goal almost all through college to go on a date a week.
And so I, I spent a lot of time with a lot of different people and at that point I was just like, it just might not be in the cards for me. And I remember like coming to terms with that myself and being like, I may never get married. And talking to my mom and telling her, I'm like, Hey, just so you know, I've come to terms with the fact that I just may never get married.
And we were looking it up and it seems like it was just with, with probably within a year of, of me meeting Tess, that I decided that I had to recognize that and let go of that. And it was freeing and helpful. But you know, you have to acknowledge I was sad. You know, I can be, I'm a happy person. I'm a very optimistic, but like, I still preferred like having a companion.
I don't understand when people are like, oh, I don't wanna get married, I don't wanna be tied down to someone else. I wanna do all this stuff. And I'm like, isn't it more fun to do that stuff with like your best friend, like all the time? [00:26:00] Like, why wouldn't you want. And so that's what I wanted. Um, and I realized that maybe that wasn't gonna work out that way.
And that for me was like one of the biggest things I had to like process and let go of. Um, but just even all the rest of the wheelchair stuff, there's still lots of things that, you know, we could technically go camping or we could technically go dancing. It's just not the same. Um, and so there's, those are things we look forward to, but you know that for now we're kind of let go as like.
Not the priority, um, but by letting it go, we are like, okay, rather than worrying about that stuff that we've let go, what's the fun stuff we can do now? And we've got so many things that we do now that instead. Right. Yeah. For me, I just approach life very visual. I visualize everything. So I always have a plan, right?
I have a plan for this and I have a plan for that, and I picture how it's gonna go, and not even big stuff, just mundane stuff. And so after dating Corby and realizing how much expectations shape how I feel about things, I have [00:27:00] become much more aware of how those expectations affect the way I feel about things.
And so if something is not going, how I pictured it. Whether big or small, I really have to be aware and not assign those negative feelings about my expectations going wrong. And not put them on what's actually happening, but may not be bad in any way. It's just different. And I kept feeling bad about my unmet expectations for what I thought I would marry, which was a walking person, not someone who couldn't take me dancing and hiking and camping, which are three of my favorite activities.
And I kept putting those negative emotions on Corby and making me feel bad about Corby, even though there was nothing bad about Corby himself or our relationship the way it is. And so I really had to learn how to separate those things and then allow myself to be mad about the stuff that wasn't going to happen, and acknowledging that I was mad about that and sad about that.
And I think that's more true for people who just [00:28:00] visualize and ex expect things more. Corby doesn't struggle with it as much 'cause he doesn't plan as far out as I do. It's whatever happens. Yeah. He So he doesn't need to do this. Just the flow. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I relate more to you, Tess, in that department and I think that you're, the way that you said that it's not bad, it's just different.
Uhhuh. I think that's a really important distinction to make. There is a part that I love in the book where Tess, you talk about, and it's at kind of a. An emotional time period for you and Corby and your relationship and trying to figure out what you wanted to do going forward. And you talk about the lame man whose friends lowered him through the roof so that he could be healed by the savior, and you share some really.
Honest struggles that you've had with the Savior's healing of people in the scriptures. I wondered if you could share a little bit about [00:29:00] kind of those thoughts that you had at that time, and then how you've reconciled that today. And Corby, I'd love to get your thoughts on this as well. There is more than one scripture about the savior, healing people who are lame 'cause the other one is.
When he meets that man on the edge of the pool of Bethesda and heals him on the Sabbath day. So all the Pharisees are like freaking out about how Sabbath was this? Yeah, about that aspect of it. And so that's more the focus is like the savior healed him on the Sabbath, but the pool of Bethesda was like known in the area for having supposed healing properties.
Right. And so there were probably dozens of. Equally disabled people gathered around that pool that day and the savior healed one of them and not the other ones. And I think that's more the ratio that we should [00:30:00] expect now too. The savior does not heal people as often as he can, and he does that on purpose, and I was more frustrated with that when I was dating Corby.
And now I have a different perspective about that, and I think that we learn more from unmet. Healing than we do from things going perfectly or how we expect them to. Um, there's even a talk by, is it Elder Ben? Elder Ben, the faith not to be healed yet. Mm-hmm. That's a, yep. And, and now I just trust that God has a plan and if he needed to heal Corby for his plan to work out, he would do it and he hasn't.
So like, and the stuff that we've been able to do because Corbe is not healed. Has been amazing, and we would not have written a book and we would not be on this podcast, and we wouldn't be able to share as many experiences with other people if he hadn't ever gotten in his accident or if he had been healed.
When I [00:31:00] asked on many, many nights when we were dating and just getting frustrated with God and being like, okay, if I accept, if I accept Corby, his broken state, will you heal him? If I, if I show faith by moving forward, will you heal him? Obviously that didn't happen, and I'm really grateful for that because I love our life now and I'm really grateful for what we've been able to do, even with Corby and his, you know, broken state, even though I don't see it that way anymore.
Yeah. And I, I like to, you know, we look at physical disabilities, you know, or wounds or things and kind of, it's like we put them into a different category. Mm-hmm. You know, and I know, we know that, that Christ can heal all things, but people, people more talk about like him healing the blind and healing the lame and they.
We don't have as much focus on him healing, depression or anxiety or family relationships or, or motivation or just strengthening your testimony. There's like so many different angles to this, right? And so the fact that he doesn't heal my, my, uh, my ability or inability to walk isn't that different from him [00:32:00] not healing whatever struggles you're going through.
And we know doctrinally that struggles and experience and, and choosing Kim despite our challenges. That's the, the agency is an important part of the plan. And so almost like him healing me is almost just taking away that agency, taking away that opportunity to learn so many positive and powerful things and experiences I've had and the way I've grown as a result of it.
If he'd just been like, oh, and he'd honored my first request, 'cause I definitely prayed and asked too, to be healed, you know? And if he'd honored that right at first, then I wouldn't have had all the experiences I had. I feel like at the times I did try to pray about it. It kind of felt, I got this feeling like if you asking your mom if you can have candy right before dinner, you just like already know that the answer is no.
And you're like, why am I even asking this? Like, I already know that that's not what they're gonna want. And so that's kind of the sense I've had about being in a wheelchair the whole time. And so I appreciate opportunities to share like this. 'cause I think it's part of why, um, I'm having the experience I have, um, so I can share with others, but also for my own growth of course.
And, you know, my own journey. And so. I'm so grateful for [00:33:00] it. Grateful to not be healed, which is a weird thing to say, but, and I think God knew that we were going to up together because he blessed us each with abilities or talents or skills that the other person needed. So he knew we were gonna be in this position and he prepared us for it.
So, so interesting the way that that works. I've told this story before, but we had a guy on this podcast, have you ever met Josh Pack? Josh Peck now, he is also in a wheelchair. He had an accident. He was in a, like a lake at a family reunion and did like a dive and ended up being hurt pretty badly. And he was on this podcast years ago and I was interviewing him and I kept having this thought from the spirit saying, ask him if he would dive in the water again.
I was like, I am not [00:34:00] asking that question. Like that's extremely uncomfortable, and it just would not go away. And so finally I was just like, okay, fine. I'll ask the question. And I have never forgotten his answer because he said, you know, part of me would love to wake up and press a button and never, never dive in that water.
Like I love to press that button. And he was like, but also I can't. Deny like what I've learned as a result of this. So he is like, I'm not sure I could, and I think that if there's one thing that I've learned from hosting this podcast, it might be that it's amazing to me to to look at people who have gone through incredibly hard things and.
I think most if you gave them the choice to go back, like would they press that button? And I, I think most people would say no because they like who [00:35:00] they're becoming as a result of that hard thing. And I. I noticed, um, in the, in the book, Tess, you talk at the end about how if there was an option of Corbe being totally healthy, you're not sure you would take it.
Um, and Corbe you said you're grateful for it. And so I think it's interesting to, to kind of think about that. Do the two of you have any thoughts about that? And if not, I can go on to another question. Oh, oh, for sure. No, I can just, you know. Briefly at my testimony of that PRIs principle that like, yeah, I, I totally wouldn't push that button.
Like, I like the person I've become, I've, I am, the relationships I've developed and, and just for anyone, even independent of a major accident, just think about like if 15 years ago you'd moved to Wisconsin instead of wherever you live now, you never would've met the people you had, you would've had entirely different jobs.
Your kids would've had different friends. You would've different calling, like everything about your life would be different, right? So it's like crazy. I'm like, I don't. [00:36:00] I don't want to give up. I'm, I'm me right now. I like me. And so I would never go back and change all that stuff. And so, yeah, I could definitely testify.
I am still also excited about like, you know, applying these lessons in a fully functional body someday too. Right? Yeah. So I, but like, I definitely wouldn't go back and stop myself from breaking my neck. 'cause I, I, I really enjoy the. You know, I wouldn't have married Tess. Tess would've been terrified of me.
Um, but so, and, and I love our relationship and so there's just so many aspects of it that like, I definitely would not go back and change. Tess, any thoughts on that? I, I wouldn't change it either, and I don't know if I would change it now. Like we have built a really great life and it's with Corbin a chair and it's, I don't know, it works really well, so I don't know.
We would mess with that. And also I'm really, really scared of a high energy Corby because all of his family describes him as like a Tigger. No, I like the [00:37:00] sitting down version. I like the one I'm used to. And I'm sure it would be great if he was healed too, like. We would get to do stuff that I, I don't know.
Yeah. But she loves also that, you know, she can put down tools upstairs and they stay there. There are so many wheelchair perks that I love so much that I wouldn't wanna give up. So I get to be conscious of, you know, respecting her space and her stuff, you know? Yeah. The upstairs mine, she doesn't even know what I have up there.
It's great. Well, I, uh, I wish that people could see Corby when you were talking about. The you, you're not sure if you wanna see the high energy. Oh yeah. The more high energy. Corby. Corby made a very funny face. Oh, I, I think that Tess, what you said just now about you've built a really great life. I think that there's an important thing to kind of draw out from that, which is that I think great lives are built.
I don't think they're handed to us [00:38:00] many times on a silver platter. Like here have this great life. I think it takes work, and that's maybe one reason that I, I loved your book so much is we saw the work that you had to put in to get to what you have now. And it wasn't easy. And I think that that's an important thing for people to hear and and read.
At one point you say the title of the book was, my Husband is Lame and so am I. Now you've changed it, but the last chapter is Everyone is Lame, and I think that this is a really powerful point. So before we get to our last question, I wanted to ask you both, how would you explain this principle of everyone is lame?
Yeah, the original title was actually just My husband is Lame. 'cause we thought it was a funny title and people said that I can't do that. The publisher specifically said, I can't do that. Yeah. They were like, mostly if we really question, you're gonna offend people Also, apparently people under a [00:39:00] certain age and people who don't grow up in a Christian religion with the Bible don't realize that lame means what is lame more than one thing.
It's just. My husband is dumb. Like that's kind of what it read as, um, or not cool, right? Yeah, right. So we did have to change the title, but when I very first started writing it, I wasn't intending to write as much about me. And then it ended up being more about me and how I was dealing with all of my challenges.
I hadn't really realized how many things I had done until I wrote it all down. So I ended up talking about Corby's disability and my disability, and the contrast is that Corby's is so visible and mine is not. I am really, really good at masking some of my little quirks that I deal with, and it's been interesting being married to Corby because people put physical disabilities on a different level than.
Ones that aren't as [00:40:00] visible. They look at him and they're like, oh my gosh, you have such a rough life. This is so horrible for you. It's like it's really not though. Like we designed a life that allows him to be as independent as he can, and it's a good life. And we can pay money and get a wheelchair and a wheelchair van, and it's mostly dealt with like, I wish that we could pay money and fix some of our friends' problems and in the way that we can fix corby's.
And so it just became more of a, a story about how every single person is dealing with something at every single minute of every day. Like everybody is lame in some way. Um, and very few of them are visible. And you mentioned that you've interviewed several people that are in wheelchairs and. Like I like it's because we put them and they're like, oh my gosh, you must be dealing with so much.
But you could interview anybody and ask them, Hey, what did you learn from your lameness at that [00:41:00] time? And it changes over time. You might be laman one way two years ago, and now you're lame in a different way Today. Sometimes you make yourself lame, like maybe you got into some debt that you didn't mean to get into, or.
You know, addiction that you got yourself into, or miscarriages or dealing with a really hard calling that you don't feel prepared for, or infertility or abuse or, there's so many ways that are invisible that you would have no idea that people are dealing with. And so, yeah, the last chapter, just to wrap it up is just everybody is lame.
'cause that was really the message of the book by the end. Tess, let me ask you this. Do you feel like, you said that you felt like you didn't realize how much you were dealing with until writing. Do you feel like it was helpful to you to process it all in the form of writing? Not really. That's a very funny thing.
I was like, this is [00:42:00] gonna be cathartic and she's gonna get over it. Mostly she's just like, oh, I was so dumb. Why did you marry me? Yeah. All these positive reasons. She's like, but I was so dumb. Yeah. I didn't realize how often I almost blew it until it was all the draft was over 200,000 words long. Like, which is three times longer than the draft.
It's three times longer than the actual book. Wow. Um, because we went in so many circles and. Yeah, I don't know. I would just come downstairs at like one in the morning and wake Corby up and be like, why on earth did you put up with this? Like, I was not a good person. Um, but it was just what I was feeling in the moment.
And I don't try to hide that in the book. Like, I don't know. Yeah, it wasn't a way We've been able to talk about it a lot in written form. It's been great. But yeah, I think it's, but writing it was really hard. It was really hard for really hard. Corby, it is very clear throughout the book that you and your family, and now you two as a couple, have been recipients of a [00:43:00] lot of service.
At the end of the book, Tess, you talk about letting other people serve you and learning to let other people serve you, which for you guys, this requires even letting people do things that you could do for Corby yourself, letting other people do those things. So I wondered if you could talk to me about why it is so important to let other people serve, and also maybe speak to the gratitude that you both feel for the many people that have served you.
Yeah. I, I love this topic because when we talk about, you know, some of the blessings I've had from being in a wheelchair, it's weird to say that one of the greatest blessings I've had is being a default opportunity for service, like, just needing service all the time. Because you know, we talk in the church all the time about like, you should serve and forget yourself and serve.
But if no one, and it's better to give than to receive. Yeah. It's better to give than to receive. But if no one lets themselves receive, then like there's no one to serve. Right. And so I've kind of had to accept that I'm just like a default, I'm gonna be [00:44:00] receiving more than I'm giving this whole time. You know, at least in major tangible ways.
And, but there's so many relationships, like people that I've never really would've connected with. 'cause we ask when people help put me in bed or get me out of bed. I ask them what they're grateful for is every day and share what I'm grateful for. And we like to do unconventional gratefuls. 'cause you can't just say family or the atonement of Jesus Christ, you gotta be like Costco taquitos or you know, like, or just the sound rain makes when you're inside and it's warm and looking out at just like things like that.
And you learn so much about people. And so just having, being a service opportunity and allowing people to serve me has been such a blessing in my life. And I'm so, so grateful. I just would not function without, you know, the many people that have blessed my lives. And like you mentioned, Tess could technically do a bunch of these things.
I would argue that like if she did have to do them all exclusively, that that really wouldn't be main maintainable. And we've talked to other people in wheelchairs that, um, that their caregivers did struggle because they were their primary caregivers. So I love spreading it out across the, uh, village to, to, to [00:45:00] help and, and I'm so grateful.
When we moved into this ward, we had a full contingent that the Elders Corps had set up of people every day and every night. And we met, we were instantly integrated into our ward because. These people. And so now I even like talk about when you're struggling, like, how do I do my ministering assignment?
I'm like, maybe ask them to serve you. Like, it's weird the idea that it's like, no, I'm, I'm ministering to them. I should be helping them out. You are like, nah, you, you ask them to help you out and I'll bet your relationship will strengthen more than if you go over and you know, helicopter mom, then that's not as good.
And so just the blessings of service and I'm so deeply, deeply grateful for the many people that helped me out. Yeah. One of the challenges I issue in the book is to say yes when somebody offers service, even when you don't need it, which is hard. 'cause in our church culture, we've kind of. Made it so that you only get dinners delivered when you've had surgery or a baby.
Like it's gotta be something majorly [00:46:00] huge that happened in your life, and then it's like, no, I deserve service. But there are periods of time in your life where you're going to be able to give, and there's periods of time where you're going to be in a season where you need to receive. And that's almost harder than giving.
And yeah, it's been. I'm a very independent person, so accepting service has been one of the bigger challenges of being married to Corby, but it is one that I'm really, really grateful for. And I feel like we've gotten a tiny glimpse into a little slice of a Zion community just because the people around us are so willing to serve.
Um, and the connections that we've made with them are so much better than the people that we don't see in a service capacity. People are way more willing to talk openly when they're serving you. It's really great. Yeah, it's been a major blessing. It's been a huge blessing. Like it'd be, if you talk about things that we would miss if Corby was healed, that would be [00:47:00] one of the major things.
As nice as it would be to be in a place where we could help other people, we would miss the feeling that we get. Just knowing how many people around us are so willing to help. Yeah, I, I think that there is something that is really beautiful and makes you appreciate where you are and the people that you're surrounded by when you are the recipient of service.
We had a, we had a unique experience when my husband was in school and we lived in an apartment building with a bunch of other LDS couples and I think seven of like 10 had babies within like three months or something crazy like that. And I was like, nobody's gonna bring anybody food. And we were in like an inner city ward.
I was like, nobody's gonna get food. Because there's not gonna be anybody, like, we're all gonna be in the thick of it and everybody took care of each other. And I think there is, [00:48:00] there's something that makes you appreciate your, your surroundings and recognize the goodness of people so much more when you're able to, to both give and receive, like you said.
Well, I think the, the two of you are awesome and you make a great team. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I can go first. Prob, I mean, there's a lot of reasons. The one that I've been thinking the most of lately is there's a couple scriptures in doctrine and covenants 58 verse 26 and 27.
Behold it does not meet that I should command in all things for he that is compelled in all things the same as a slothful and not a wise servant. Wherefore he receive with no reward, barely. I say men should be anxiously engaged in the good cause and do many things of their own free will and bring to pass much righteousness.
And so to me, [00:49:00] being all in means always doing something. When I look back on. Where I was before I met Corby, I never talked to people. I was so, like the thought of me being on a podcast, sharing personal stuff, like emotional things just in the open, like this would've been so foreign and overwhelming and just completely unbelievable to me like 10 years ago even.
Part of that is because I'm always trying to work on something, whether it's something that I'm weak at or a new skill, or just trying to form relationships. As hard as that is, and as much as I don't like it, like we're, we're kind of trying to do uncomfortable things sometimes, and the more that you can do.
The more dominoes it sets up for God [00:50:00] to push over later. And at the beginning of this interview, we talked about the way this book came about, which is why this has been on my mind. This never would've happened if I hadn't started writing something. And I started writing something like six or seven years ago.
This has been in the making for so long. We knew this lady because we work at the temple that got all this started, and then we just do things all the time. And we never know when those skills or those people, those relationships, whatever are going to be needed. And we have to take the initiative and set those dominoes up so that God can use them later.
And we don't know how that's gonna work out in the future, but he does. I love that Corby. For me, a major story that always comes to mind with a question like this is, uh, growing up I, I didn't wanna be a goodie two shoes. I didn't wanna be a Peter Priesthood or whatever, but I also didn't want to be a rebel.
Like I didn't, I just kind of wanted to be in like the gray zone in the middle all the time. And so, so frequently throughout high [00:51:00] school and, and a couple years into college. You know, I'd be like, okay, you know, that's too far to the, to the, to the good side. And that's too far to the bad side. Like where's the middle ground?
You know? Is this movie, this movie pretty bad. Okay. It's got a couple bad scenes, so it's okay 'cause it's bad enough to not be too good, but it's good enough to not be too bad. And, um, I found it just exhausting, like identifying this gray zone all the time. It was just like so much to like try to find.
Like, is this too bad, too good? And I realized like, wow, I spent so much effort like identifying the gray zone, like why am I doing that? Um, and I finally decided, I'm like, I should just either be all in or all out. Like why am I spending all this energy identifying a gray zone? And gratefully at the time, I'm like, well, I'll, I'll try being all in.
Um, and you know, obviously I haven't been perfect since then. Um, but at least you know when I make a mistake, I don't think. Oh, well that's what I was going for is this halfway mistake zone. You know, I can at least recognize it's like, that was, that was bad behavior. That was a show I probably shouldn't have watched.
You know, like I, I have this much clearer line and it [00:52:00] takes way less energy to be all in than it does to kind of think about. Mostly in deciding every time if you're gonna be in or not, you know, it's a lot easier to just be like, I accept callings. You know, like rather than like, depends on which calling I got and who else is in the calling at the time, you know?
And so I just found that being all in is just easier than, than thinking about it. And so I'm just so grateful for my testimony that I've built over the years too, having been an all in and all the experiences I've I've had that I wouldn't have had if I was like, eh, maybe in, you know, sort of in, and so yeah, that's my, that's my all in.
I just love the energy saved by making the decision once and sticking with it. Yeah, I love what you both said. I love both of your takes on that. And it reminds me, and I wanna say that it was a talk by President ir, where he talks about. Or it might have been Clayton Christensen. I need to try to find it anyway.
Talks about it's easier to do the right thing [00:53:00] 100% of the time than 98% of the time, and I do think that's so true. I am so grateful to both of you for your. Examples for your willingness to, to do this interview and to write this book and share your experiences. I think so many people will be blessed by it, but if no one else is, just know that it did bless my life and I'm grateful to have had the chance to, to read it and to get to know both of you.
So thank you so much. Thank you. We are so grateful for Tess and Corby Campbell and their willingness to share their experiences on today's podcast. You can find a wheelie Awkward Romance in Deseret bookstores now. Big thanks to Derrick Campbell of Mix at six Studios for his help with this episode, and thank you so much for listening.
We'll look forward to being with you again next week.