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I first met Phil Millett over a decade ago when I moved into the young single adult ward where he was serving as bishop. I've always known that Bishop Millett loved the Lord, and I learned very quickly that he also had a lifelong love for the world around us, and that love is contagious. He and his wife, Greta, taught me to love hiking, not just because of the beauty around us, but also because of the conversations and lessons learned along the way.

I hope his love for nature will inspire you to step outside and to appreciate the creations of who Phil calls the divine architect, who enables nature to nurture us every step of the way. Phil Millett was born in Provo, Utah, and is one of 11 children. His father was a science professor and his mother, one of his heroes.

He considers himself a Utah native, although his childhood was spent on the glaciers and mountains of Alaska, Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah. In 1982, he married his best friend and high school crush. They have five children and eight grandchildren. He is a geologist and mountaineer and the author of the book From Rocks to You and Me.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have my friend, Phil Millett, on the line with me today. Phil, welcome. Oh, thank you, Morgan. This is gonna be a test for me because I always call Phil Bishop because he was my singles ward bishop, and he told me that I can call him Phil.

But it's gonna be very out of my comfort zone. So we'll see how this goes. Okay. Well, well from the, from the moment, uh, Greta and I first met you, Morgan, you, you lit up the room, and I, and I know that's, uh, that's not just for us, it's for everyone, so. Oh, you're so sweet. You two have been such a blessing in my life, and I am so excited to be able to share you, a small piece of you with other people through this interview.

So I wanted to start, I know that you were raised in a variety of different landscapes. You were raised in Alaska, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado. Your dad was a science professor. So I wondered, how did your childhood, where you lived, who you were raised by, shape your love for and curious approach to the world around us?

Well, that's a great question that I've pondered over the years even, and I don't... I, I think when I was really young, then we lived in a traditional neighborhood, but, but for all of my, essentially all of my growing up years, it, it wasn't. We were either in a canyon or, or, or in the mountains somewhere And there's nothing wrong with falling in love with baseball and soccer, but we, but I never did do any of those things as my youth.

And so instead of, instead of falling in love with, with sports, then I fell in love with Mother Nature. And I remember just as a, just as a boy, just watching and wondering how these ferns uncurl, and I'd check on them every day to make sure that they're still uncurling. And, and then I'd look at moss, and I could see these unique little things growing out of the moss.

The, the mountains became my backyard and, and, and of course hiking and adventure and all that stuff, uh, just seeing a waterfall or, or hearing the screech of a hawk or whatever it is that, that you, that you encounter, even if it's the breeze through the pines, then, uh, those things gave me awe. I, I'm not sure when I recognized that they, all of these beauties are from on high, but it seems like I've, I've always known that he was there.

I love that. My mom is one of those people that she just notices the beauty all around her. I was on the phone with her yesterday, and she was on a walk in the woods by her house, and she's like, "I wish you could see the way that the wind is rustling these trees." And I just think that ability to recognize how beautiful the world is around us is, is a gift.

And I've had the chance over the years... I, I'll never forget, Bishop, when you took our singles ward, this was when I was pretty new in the ward, and you said, "I'm gonna take you guys..." It was, like, 90 degrees, and we were all worried that we were gonna get dehydrated on a hike, and you were like, "I'm gonna take you guys where it's 55 degrees year-round."

And we were like, "What are you talking about?" And you took us in that mine shaft. Oh, goodness. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then I've had the chance to hike with you and Greta, and I just think that love for nature that you have is contagious. And, and so I loved getting to kind of read your, your take on the world that the Lord has given us.

I wanted to ask you, you write that you were recently able to speak with Peggy Whitson, the first woman to lead the International Space Station and the American who has spent the most time in space, and the question that you asked her was, "What is most remarkable to you about space?" You spend the first half of this book Explaining the marvels of our Earth, and I wondered what would you say is most remarkable to you about Earth?

Well, that's a, that's a great question, and Peggy is a remarkable person. So without any reservation or, or question, then what is most remarkable to me are-- it is the plan that... And, and, and in science we call these cycles, and so-- but if you look around, Morgan, there's, there's cycles for everything. And there's, there's-- uh, the water cycle, of course, is the one that we learn about in, in elementary school.

But there is really a cycle, uh, for everything and, and really that's a plan for everything. In, in theology we call it a plan, but there is... It's just remarkable to see how Mother Nature refreshes herself and keeps life going and does it so well. It's just remarkable, and for billions of years. And, and so, uh, so Earth is, is just remarkably sustainable, and the, the mighty oak that was once the patriarch in the forest, now fallen, becomes the nurse log for generations, uh, still to come.

And, and if you've ever seen a nurse log, then they're just overcome with, with, with moss and, and this biome, this natural biome that's covering the, the forest floor is just, just building itself, and it's all a part... That happens to be the carbon cycle. But there's a cycle for everything. There's an oxygen cycle and, and a qu- a, a, a rock cycle.

It's remarkable how Earth has this plan and how well it works. That's so neat, and I loved, I loved-- I will be honest, I've always heard you speak, and you're so good at making things relatable. But reading kind of your, your take on the world through a scientific perspective was so neat to me to hear how much you know.

One of the biggest things that you tackle in your book is how there are different theories about how the world came to be, this Earth that we live on, and that this can be decisive even, and sometimes especially for Christians, because we believe in the Bible, and so it's like we believe in the creation the way that it's recorded in the Bible.

And I thought you did such a good job of kind of allowing for different perspectives on the way that the Earth came to be and talking about why that's important to have an open mind. And I wondered if you could share a little bit about how you personally are able to approach and reconcile this as a geologist.

Oh, another great question. Uh, and, and s- and I don't know if it's, if it's that rare or that, that unique, but, but I really don't have any problems with this reconciliation, and there is no decisiveness. It's, it, it all, it all works for me. And so then we say yonder is matter unorganized, and, and for me, that's a solar nebula, you know?

And it just works. It's perfect. And in that solar nebula is all the building blocks that we'll need to make this sustainable Earth. And, and then it comes together and finds itself in an orbit, and we have, we have the sun and the moon, and, and these things come together in this natural way. And then, and then we, we have sorting, and, and so then we have the oceans and the crust, and, and all of that is can be, can, can, can coincide, uh, perfectly.

And then we have, uh, life's birthday and, uh, the first cell. And, and of course, there is evolution and, and, and that's a stumbling block for some, but, but I... For me, it's not. And I, I recognize to whom the command was given, and the command was given to Mother Earth. And if it's Mother Earth, then we're talking about the elements, and so then the command was given, "Hey, bring this forth."

And what are you gonna do if you're an element? Well, you're gonna start holding... You're gonna say, "Hey, we have a blueprint. We know what we need to do. Let's get going." And so then you come together, and, and essentially, it, it, it's through this process or can be through this process of evolution. And so, so I, I just don't see a stumbling block, and the age of the Earth might be a stumbling block.

And, and, and if, and if you want to believe otherwise, then I think that's fine. I think it's, it's healthy. And if, and if it's meaningful to you, and it resonates with you, then go ahead. And I'm, I'm not one to, to, to step into the ring and lace 'em up, you know? If you, if you think the, the, the Earth's creation was a 7,000-year period, then, then go ahead.

And I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna criticize or... I don't have a problem reconciling it. And I, and I honestly don't think that others should either, Morgan. I think that we can... I think that, I think that it can work It just, it just, it just, it's hard for people to give up some things, and then it's hard for others to accept some things.

And, uh, boy, I wish we could, and I wish we would. Well, I think one thing that you talk about in the book that I thought was so spot on was that these things don't hold, like, eternal consequence, kind of. How, how it all happened doesn't matter as much as some other things, which are these kind of absolute truths that you talk about in the book.

And I think that that is an interesting distinction. I wanna talk a little bit about that. You share that your dad really admired a professor who taught at McGill University, where your dad earned his doctorate. And one reason you said that he considered this professor so smart was because he recognized that science is what scientists say it is, and that new discoveries can change what once was understood to be true.

But then you talk about absolute truths. So you talk about kind of how science comes to be, hypothesis, working it out, and then that's what determines what we believe to be science. But then you said there's also absolute truths. So how would you differentiate between those two things? Well, that's neat that you, that, uh, that you understood that so well and, and, uh, and made that a question as well.

So we do favor empirical evidence, meaning, meaning things that we can comprehend and understand through this protocol of our senses, right? We can see it, we can feel it, we can hear it, we can touch it, taste it. But really, the point was is that... And, and those are neat things to know, and they're neat things to understand, and they, and they help us put two and two together and figure things out.

But, but really in, in, in, in life and in what really matters most, I, I think that it's, it's not so much the truths that we learn in our head. It's the truths that we learn in our heart. And so then how do we learn things in our heart? And essentially, and this is, this is, is just, I think, just almost radical to say, but, but it, but it's true, and we all do it.

I just don't think we think about it this way. But these absolute truths that, that matter most to us, Morgan, are, are just, are just feelings that we have. So isn't that remarkable? That the, that the things that matter most Are not the things that we, that we touch, and that we hear, and that we, that we do in a lab or, or on a, on a, on a blackboard.

They're actually things that resonate with us. And, uh, and of course, those are things like, like who we are, and why we're here, and where we're going, and those are some of the, you know, those are some of the oldest questions ever asked. But, but the answers to those can be, are absolute truths. And I will add that I think that, that being, uh, feelings, then, then these also become more individual.

And so, and so when you have these scientific truths, then, uh, then those are pretty, you know, they're cookie cutter, this is the way it is, and... But there's, there's so much still to learn in the sciences, and the truths that matter the most to me are, are the feelings that I have, and, uh, the feelings of love and the feelings of forgiveness and the feelings of, of, uh, being a part of something that's important.

Can I ask you a follow-up question that I did not prepare you for? Yeah, of course. Just as I was listening to you talk about those things, I was thinking, I would imagine that it is kind of rare for a scientific mind to feel the way that you just said, that these things that matter most are not the things that come out of a lab.

They're the things that we feel. Do you feel like that is something that has just always been a part of your nature, this ability to kind of separate the scientific versus the spiritual? Uh, which I guess, like you said, throughout, those two things are not... Those two things can coexist. Um, but kind of that ability to recognize those things that matter most are the things that we feel.

Or is that something that you were taught? I, I think that it just, it just came natural to me, and sometimes I'd have to ask myself, or I still do, I have to ask myself, "So is that, is that, this is, is that a scientific discovery that, that I, that I know, a truth that I know in my mind, or is that one that I know in my heart?"

But, but- I- But there's always, uh, sometimes there's not that big of a distinction. Sometimes I feel like, that I know a truth in both places, and I can, I can reconcile b- between the two. And so yeah, it's always been... It, it wasn't a conscious thing, uh, and never has been as I, as I've sought learning. I love that.

You enjoy hiking, and I'm sure you have countless hiking stories. You've taught me some things on the hikes, but I think none of those stories are more startling than the experience that you and your son Phil had while hiking Mount Rainier. I wondered if you could share that experience and kinda some of the lessons that you've learned from it.

Uh, yeah, sure. I'll, I'll try to give you the cliff note, uh, version, but- We got time ... okay. Um, well, on, uh, yeah, on, on June, uh, 5th of 2010, my son, uh, Phil and I, and a friend of his, uh, uh, decided... Well, we'd planned on it, but anyway, that's when we, that's when we went to climb Mount Rainier, and Mount Rainier is this beautiful stratovolcano in, in, uh, in the northeast, and it's part of the Seattle, uh, skyline, and it's a super...

It's, it's the heaviest glaciated mountain in the lower 48. Just a beautiful, a beautiful mountain. It's over 14,000 feet high. It's 14,400, and just a, a real crown jewel for mountaineers. There's a lot of training that goes on there, and, uh, it's just a, a lot of fun, and you just see the glaciers and the seracs and, and, uh, and you meet people, uh, that are trying to accomplish the same thing you are, and it's, it's, it's really neat.

You know, people ask, "Hey, uh, uh, why do you do it?" You know, and George Mallory, uh, uh, on Ever- he, he... In, in 1921, I think, or tw- he tried, they tried, he tried to climb it in '23, but anyway, a reporter asked him, uh, "Why do you do it?" And it's, it's because he's there, is what his response was. And, uh, and for me, it's more than that.

It's, it's, it's... That's, in that kind of environment is, uh... And I can find Him in a, in a testimony meeting, but I can also find Him, uh, in the shadow of a serac, you know, on, with alpenglow. So we... And we'd climbed it before, and we wanted to do it again. We got to base camp and then, uh, checked in with the ranger.

He wanted to know our plans. There'd been fresh snow the day before, and so we were worried about that, and we asked him what the... He didn't tell us. We asked him what the, what the avalanche threat was, and he said it wasn't that big, but to, but to go. Uh, there, there was one place where there was a threat, and we asked how to mitigate that, and he said, "There's not a way.

Just, just hustle along underneath that area." And so, and, and w- and what time we wanted to leave, and we wanted to leave at, at 1:00 AM, which is typical. Uh, there was a, a Korean group of 12 that wanted to leave at mid- midnight and then some professionally guided groups at 2:00 And so we did. At one o'clock, we, we were, we were on the trail with our ice axes and crampons and roped together, and it was cold and windy, uh, but, but just a beautiful morning for a climb.

And we made it across this Cowlitz Glacier and then, and then up onto this place called The Gap. We were surprised to meet the Koreans there in that they got an earlier start than we did. But they, they had tried to go up The Gap or this cleaver, and it was just a dead-end route instead of dropping off over onto the Ingraham Glacier.

And so then they, they, they waited for us. And, uh, and a couple of them, well, half of them actually decided, uh, to go back to base camp. But anyway, six-- the other six wanted to join us, and we were glad they did. They were actually more experienced mountaineers than, than, uh, we were and just wonderful people.

But, um, there was a, there was a solo climber, uh, that, that passed us. He caught us and then, and then we said, "Hey, why don't you rope in with us?" And anyway, he, he went to go up where the Koreans went. We tried yelling to him. You know, it was windy and our voice was lost in that gale. But, um, anyway, we went down onto the, onto the Ingraham and then, and then, and then over to-- and then wh- and then the Ingraham starts to get steep.

And right where it starts to get steep, then this solo climber passed us again. And, and my son asked him, he said, "Hey, here we are. We're, we're just heading into the snow-covered crevasses. You ought to, you ought to rope in with us, and there's room on our ro- on our, on our team. We'd love to have, uh, four instead of just three."

But anyway, he, he wanted to stay solo. We hiked up and, uh, traversed back and forth. A beautiful morning. Around four thirty or so, we could start to see the f- the first light of the day, and there was a cloud bank down below us and still really cold but, uh, and windy, but, but I knew we had a summit coming.

Uh, we stopped right in the middle of the glacier for a, for a break and which you do. But usually you only stop for five or ten minutes and, and, and we did. We stopped for five or ten minutes, got some water, got, uh, had a little bite to eat and, uh, stomped our feet a little bit and then, and then it's time to go and the Koreans were right there.

They caught us and, and then, and then, and then I said, "Well, maybe we ought to head off. Let's, let's, let's take off, Phil." And he said, "I don't, I don't feel good about it right now, Dad. Let's just give it another minute." I said, "Okay, whatever." And then the Koreans waited there with us and then, and then they got cold.

They got a chill coming in, which does, you know, if you're not moving. And so then, and so then they, they said, "Hey, we, we're gonna t- we're gonna take off." And then I said, "Phil, well, you know, let's, let's launch." And he said, "No, I, I still don't... It's just not the right time, Dad." So I get it, you know. So then we, he showed them the way, you know, "Here's, you know, go above this crevasse and then, and then cut back and come this way, and anyway, and then we'll catch you."

And then they, they took off. But just a few minutes after they took off, we were just sitting there taking in the, the beauty of the morning and, and, and we h- we heard this echoing avalanche from down in one of those... We could see the guided groups coming along that Ingraham Flats down there below us, and somehow they, they saw it and, and yelled.

And we, we didn't know where it was. We, we thought it was down below us actually, but couldn't see any clouds or movement, and then felt this rumble, and we turned around and looked up-slope, Morgan, and it was just unbelievable. It was just like you see in the movies, just this roaring wall of snow just coming right at us, and we didn't have time to do anything.

It was just dig in. And so we planted our ice axes and just held on, and I started praying and, and just hoping and thinking, "Well, how do I do this?" You know, and I've trained for this, but, but, uh, wait for the tug on my rope and, and I could feel myself getting hit, you know, and, and bounced around. But, but then all of a sudden it was, it was over, and I opened my eyes and all I could see was this light, and I thought, "Oh, good.

I'm not buried so deep I can't see the sun." I went, "Wait a minute, the sun's not coming up yet." And it was strange, Morgan. I thought, "Am I dying?" You know? Greta told me, you know, when I go on a, when I go on an adventure, she said, "Honey, don't, don't go towards the light." And I'm just like... And I couldn't... My, the wind was knocked out of me, and so I hadn't held my breath like I should have.

But anyway, um, I just said, "Get ahold of yourself, Phil." And so, and I... And so then I, I, I did, and I, uh, and, and I, I, I started to push. And then when I did, I could feel a little give on my back, and then I just, I kept pushing. And, uh, and then, and then I could tell my head was out, but it was just a whirling drift.

I couldn't... It was just snow and just whirling drift everywhere. But then there was air there, fresh air, and I realized that light that I saw was actually just my headlamp reflecting back off the snow. "Holy smokes, Phil, come on." But anyway, and then, uh, and then I heard my son said, "Dad, are you okay?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm okay.

Are you okay?" And then he hollered to his friend, "Are you there?" "Yeah, I'm here." "Let's go. Like, we gotta go help the, help the Koreans." And boom, all of a sudden then there was a tug on my rope, and I was, I was on my hands and knees trying to get the wind back in my lungs. And anyway, they... Uh, and then I tried, I stumbled and, and then, and then they got to the first Korean, and then...

And we could... We, we knew right where he was because of the rope coming out, his rope coming out of the snow, and they pulled on his rope and found out where he was. In the meantime, I was just sitting there gasping, you know, just . And then they got the snow cleared out around him, and then, and then they went on down his rope to find the others.

And a, and a couple of guides from those guided groups down on the glacier below us, they really hustled. I mean, they were just running up the hill, just amazing how fit they were. A couple of the Koreans were in trouble. Uh, one of them had a badly broken leg, and the other one was actually unconscious. He, he was, uh...

and, and, and needed a puff of air. But anyway, um, I, I got to the first Korean climber, and then I, I was so happy to see him and know that he was okay. He had a, he had a-- He was bleeding, but he, he, he was fine. I reached my hand down in his hole and grabbed his hand. "You're gonna be okay. We-we-we-- Uh, you, you know, you're gonna live."

And, and he was just, "Go, go, go," and, uh, meaning to help the others. But, but by then there was, there was, there was, uh, Phil and our friend and then, and then a couple of these, a, a couple of these other g-guides. And so then I started looking for this solo climber, and I had a probe and a beacon and stuff and discovered he didn't have a beacon, or at least I couldn't pick up a sen- a signal from one.

I started probing and, you know, "Talk to me. Where are you?" And, uh, we kinda felt this brotherhood with him a little bit. Uh, and, and you do, you know, when you're, when you're doing something like that together. Anyway, we really wanted him to be on our, in our team. But... And it wasn't long, a helicopter was called in to come in and, and, and take the Koreans off, and it wasn't long before we could hear the helicopter and knew it was time for us to, to go back down.

And, and so we did. We made our way down to base camp and then back down the mountain, and it was just a sober trip of just what just happened, and man, oh, man. And so then it g- we got home, and we started getting some bad press about how we'd ignored the, the, the warnings, and we hadn't been warned, you know.

But then w-we learned about Mark and, uh, this solo climber, and we had to identify... We were last-- Since we last to see him, we had to identify from pictures that this was him, and it just started to get dark, and we, we just hadn't been in this brotherhood of the rope, uh, for Mark. And then, uh, uh, like three days later, we were back and forth filling out paperwork and, and then this senior park ranger, uh, called me, uh, Stefan, and he said, "Hey, Phil, d-do, do you know what happened?"

And I was like, "Yeah, I know what happened, and so are you. I know exactly what happened." And he said, "No, no, no. I'm not, I'm not talking about that. You-- I just sent you an email, and you need to go look at this picture. It's a picture that the helicopter took, uh, when it was coming in." And so I started to study the picture, and I, and I, and I just focused, and I thought, "Okay, where, where were we?"

And then I found where we were. And, and unbeknownst to us, Morgan, just above us, there were a series of big crevasses, we call them gapers And what happened, there, there was a little diamond shape, and, and we ended up being right in the middle of this diamond shape. And it was little. I'm talking 20 or 30 feet across and maybe 30 or 40 feet long.

And the, all of the debris from the avalanche went into those big gapers, into those big crevasses. And then all that we were hit with was the, the cloud and, and the snowballs that, that made it over the crevasses. And, and then right below us, then it, it gave in and, and, and, and, and became a part of this, of this tumbling avalanche.

And so then, then I really had this aha moment where, where... And I hadn't until then, and it just filled me with reverence and gratitude for my son that, that had listened and that I wouldn't have. And so then what it taught me, to answer that part of the question, was that our Heavenly Father, He answers our prayers, and one way or another, He's gonna get the message across.

And it might be to us, but it might be through someone else. It might be through your child, or it might be through your parent, or it might be in a testimony meeting or a Sunday school class. But one way or another, He's gonna get the message across. If, if, if you need to know something, then it's gonna happen.

It was, it was a, a, a really important lesson for me to, to, to recognize that and, and have that admission, and it just made me grateful to Him. I feel like there are so many lessons that can be pulled from that, but I love, too, thinking about the solo climber, and I think so often we have this tendency in life to feel like we need to go it alone or we're okay on our own, or maybe there's a reason that we feel like we deserve to go it alone.

We don't deserve to have the help of somebody else. But as somebody who has hiked a lot, you, you mention like inviting the solo climber to rope in with you guys. What is the benefit of having more than just you roped in when you're climbing? Well, that's, that's really neat that you, that you noticed that about this, about solo versus, uh, versus group.

So it does make a huge difference, and, and what you do is you rope yourself together. And so if you-- as, as you're traversing and you... If, if you do, if there is a snow-covered crevasse, and the wind and the snow can just cover them, and they, they don't even show up until you walk across, and then, and then all of a sudden you fall into it But, but since you're roped together in this, in this team, then there's one, uh, to arrest that fall.

And so, and so you're paying attention to each other. And if someone, if, if someone were to, to, to, to fall in, and it actually happens all the time, then the other members of the team are there. And there's a little slack in between you. And it depends on, uh, the glacier and, and, and that, but usually you're, you know, you're talking 30 or 40 feet in between you and, and these other climbers.

And so, and so then that gives you time to respond and to arrest the other climber. And, and then also just the rope. And see, and that's what we used when we were looking. We were following the rope. The rope was still on the surface. And so we were following the rope, and we knew at the end of the rope there w- there was a climber there.

And so that was a huge help when we were, when, when, when we were looking, uh, for the, for the other, for the Koreans. Right. So interesting. I'm, as you know, I am not a big, a big climber, but I find it really fascinating how many applications there are when you are hiking to life. I think there has to be a reason that the scriptures talk about the mountain of the Lord.

Sure. Because it, it seems like there's just, like, so much to learn. Yeah. I lo- I love it that, that Christ went there, you know? Another thing that I wanted to ask you about, when you were a young boy, you had an experience while camping in the Uintas that made a deep impression on you, and your experience in the years since you've talked about has taught you about the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I had you share this on a podcast, not this one, that I was helping with years ago, and I just have thought about it so many times in the years since, and I would love to have you share that experience and on this podcast. But also, I wondered why it was important to you to include that, and it's almost like kind of the finale in your book, why it was important to you to include that experience in a book about the earth.

Okay. Well, that's a, that's a really good question. And, and it, and it's been, it's fair to ask. It's like, "What, what are you doing here? Where are you going?" Well, I really appreciated that invitation, uh, Morgan, and it, uh, it was really hard for me, uh, to share with anyone for 30 years. And I shared it with family and close friends with...

But then that invitation let me, let me go beyond this small group, and I really appreciated you letting me do that. It, it It changed me and, and blessed me and helped me. So in between my junior and senior year of high school, and this, this is a long time ago, so things have changed. But anyway, we, we, uh, a, a group of us with one leader, uh, hiked in, uh, the Uintas.

And if, if anyone listening doesn't know where the Uintas are, they're, they're a beautiful mountain range, uh, in northeastern Utah, and it's just a, a beautiful place with high peaks and, and lakes and pines and quakies and wildlife and just all the beauties of the earth in this beautiful mountain range.

And we went into a place called the Granddaddy Basin and hiked over, uh, to Betsy Lake and set up camp there. We were really just having a blast. We had heavy packs and, you know, we were just kids. And, um, and then on the fourth day, this, uh, best friend and I, Tim, well, the whole group, we were down, uh, swimming in Betsy Lake, and we were out on this peninsula swimming and just having a great time.

And there was a, a bay there that we were swimming in, but then another peninsula over on the other side of the bay, and Tim, uh, wanted to swim to that other peninsula and ask us if we thought he could and said, "I'm gonna, I, I'm gonna do it," you know, "What'll you give me?" kind of a thing. And, and I really encouraged him to do it.

And then, and I told him that we'd meet him over there with, with some clothes. He's just in his swimming suit and, and a towel. And, uh, so he dove in. He's a really strong kid, you know. He just finished a high school, uh, football camp, and his shoulders were about twice as big as mine, just a really strong, healthy kid.

And then another friend and I, we started running around to meet him. And, uh, and this was one of those days, uh, in the mountains where there's just, um... it's, it's calm and quiet, and there's just no other interference around, and, and you can hear things in a remarkable way. And we got about halfway around, and then we s- we stopped to check on Tim's progress, and we could tell that his, his strokes had changed, and we could even hear him breathing.

And that just... it scared us and, uh, and we knew that, that something was wrong. And so then we picked up our pace and hustled over, and by the time we got over to where he was, he was heading, he had quit swimming and just... he was just... his hands were coming out, and he's just struggling to keep his head above the water.

And it was really hard, Morgan. It just... you know, he, he wasn't that far from us. And to be there and to see the desperation in his eyes and to see him fighting for his life and not being able to, to do anything to help him, we... The, the, the one friend, he, he started to go in, and then I went to grab a log so we could go in.

And we had a quick prayer, and it was really quick. Heavenly Father, help us. But he, he, he was gone. And then, but we still went to go in. And then we heard this voice, and I don't know where it came from. It wasn't a calm or a nice, uh, voice. It was very stern. Just, we just heard, and it just said, "Don't go in.

The same thing's gonna happen to you." And we-- I dropped the log, and, and then our, this other friend stopped there, and we were just like, "What is going on? What, what just happened?" You know, "Where's Tim?" And, "Did this happen?" And, oh, we just, it just was devastating. And we, we went back to our camp and told our, our leader, and everybody's just wandering around crying.

I s- uh, Tim and I were s- were in this, uh, sharing this little orange pup tent that used to be popular. And I started rolling up his stuff and, and just talking to myself and crying. And under his pillow, I found this, uh, Articles of Faith card. And I, and I saw that card, and I'm just like, "Are you kidding me?"

You know, I didn't have one of those cards under my pillow. And what a wonderful person he was. And I thought, "Well, Heavenly Father's taken the wrong person. You know, can I, can I take his place?" And I even prayed that I could, you know. And then, but we packed up, and, and I don't, I don't know how, you know, word got out.

But the next thing we knew, we were, w- we, the helicopter came in and with some divers, and they got him. And we saw them load him and put him in a sheet and, and load him in this helicopter. And, and then we took off down the trail. I had two packs on. And then halfway back, halfway out of the basin, the Grand Daddy Basin, then two of his brothers passed us going in.

And that just crushed me again. You know, here's these two brothers going in to find their brother, but he wasn't there. You know, he was gone, and it just, just really had a, a broken heart. And I got, we got back home, and, and things were different, it seemed like. The neighborhood was different, and I, I was blaming myself.

And it seems like that, and maybe it was perceived, but, but anyway, it seemed like others knew that I, that I hadn't been the best friend. And so that's pretty hard. I mean, it's hard seeing your best friend take his last breath and being just, just feet away from you and seeing the desperation in, in his hands and in his eyes and then, and then knowing that you were part of it.

That's hard for a seventeen-year-old boy, you know. But anyway, life went on, but I, but I, I thought of Tim, uh, every day. My life still went on. My family moved to Colorado and And it was, it was, it was fine. Everything was good. But I went on a mission and met up with Greta, my, this high school crush that I had.

And we got married. And every day, even, even through our honeymoon, I had thoughts of Tim. And Greta knew that I knew Tim and I was there when he died. And she, she knew him, but she didn't know that I had this burden. No one, no one really did. And then just over a year after we were married, we, we, we had this beautiful baby join our family, a little girl.

And oh, was that just a beautiful time. And about, when she was about, I don't know, 10 days or two weeks old, and I was sitting there learning how to change diapers and just marveling at this treasure. And of course, then I had this thought of Tim, you know, and I just like, man, I'm so sorry. He can't, he can't be doing this.

And, and so that daily visit, you know. So then I had, I got some courage up and I, and I, I prayed a week or so after that. And I, and I said, Heavenly Father, I'm sorry that I wasn't a better friend. I'm sorry that this happened. I promise to be better and to try not to be careless and try to, to be all that you'd have me be.

And then this miracle happened, Morgan, because I, because the next day came and went. And for the first time in seven years, I, I didn't think about Tim. And then the next day when it, when it, when I did think of him, then I was like, hey, that's, that's kind of strange. I, I went a day without thinking of him.

That's, I wonder what's going on here. And then, then I, I had, well, of course, you know, I, I realized that I, that I'd prayed and I'd asked for Heavenly Father to take this burden from me. And, and then I realized that he had. And that was such a neat day for me. I just, I mean, I, I knew, I knew about my Heavenly Father and I knew about our Savior and I, I knew all these things, but I didn't know that it, it could, it could work for me.

I'd been on a mission telling people that it could, but I, I, I'm not sure I knew that it could. And, and, and I did then. And so I could, amidst all of the hard things in life, I, I, I felt my Heavenly Father's love and my Savior's love and I understood. And so, and so then, Morgan, to answer your question Why would I, why would I share this?

Well, we do have this, this, this problem in science and, and, and at least in the world that we see or that we live on. If like the, the Artemis, uh, astronauts, you've heard them and how, and how, uh, amazing it was for them to look back on Earth. And, and, and they were just, they were just, uh, so impressed and just, just, uh, just couldn't believe what they were seeing and just...

And came home with these images in their mind. And when we look out, so they-- here they are looking back. But when we look out, and Johannes Kepler said it best, and I, I, I'll just paraphrase what he said. But anyway, he, he was an astronomer, early astronomer that, that really helped launch this Age of Enlightenment, uh, for Sir Isaac Newton and others.

Th-this telescope could let him see, and, and what he said, in essence, was, "There's nothing that I yearn for or, or, or need more in my life than to be able to, to, to see God in me the way that I can see Him out in the stars." And, and, and so what, what it means is, is that we can see Him out there, but when we turn the telescope back in, then there's too much stuff.

There's, there's, there's too much heartache. There's too much sadness. There's too much war. There's too much hate. And so then we can't... We can see Him at a distance and see the majesty. But then when, when it comes to our own life, then we can't see Him. And, and, and the reason that I wanted to share this is that, is that we can see Him.

And so that's why I, that's why I wanted to share it. If, if you feel like that you, that you can't, if it's, if... You know, when you're asking yourself, I mean, that's one of the biggest struggles that, that science has with theology is, is how can we have this all-loving, all-powerful, all-caring, uh, God, uh, and still have, you know, the, the, the heartache and still have the sadness, you know?

But it, but it works, Morgan, and that's, that's why I put it in there. So, uh, when, when we learn, like I learned, that who I am, uh, then I, I, I learned through this experience that there's a plan for me And I learned that there's a plan for everyone and for everything. And when you realize that you are, uh, children, literally children of heavenly parents, then that changes everything, and you begin to understand, and you begin to recognize this influence in your life.

Being that, that we are the creation that was born and given agency, and with this agency, we can mess up the plan. That's what I did. I messed up the plan. Well, Morgan, don't you think that our heavenly f- our heavenly parents would have known that we're going to mess up the plan? Well, of course, of course they did, right?

And then wouldn't they also make a way to fix the mess? Well, of course they would, and that's why 2,000 years ago, a baby was born in a manger, so he can fix our mess, and that's why I wanted to share the story. That's why it's in the book. So beautiful. Thank you so much. I love the way that you put that, and I love that, that quote and thinking about, you know, what would that look like if the telescope was turned back toward me and my life.

Um, I so appreciate you sharing these experiences and your thoughts. And I, uh... my last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Oh, well, thank you, Morgan. So over the years, there's been a lot of perfect answers to that, and it's neat that we've been able to see that for others, it's one thing, and for another, it's something else.

I, I think the Framptons, who you've just, uh, who you've just had on, were really dialed in with it, and I loved their message about, um, surviving the flames in Michigan. I love Christ's parable of the sower, and you'll remember this one. It's the one where there were so many people that wanted to hear him, he, he had to step into a boat, and so to keep people from surrounding him, and so then he could just, uh, face them.

And he, he talked about the farmer and, and how you can sow your seeds in, uh, different soil and how they affect the harvest. And in, in this place, they'll scorch in the sun, and here they'll be You know, they'll feed the birds, and then here they'll fill the baskets. And, and at the end of the, of the parable then, he says, uh, "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear."

So what I've had this realization that when Christ on that Thursday night and the early hours of that Friday morning after the Last Supper in the Garden of Gethsemane, as he, as he took on himself, uh, the totality of all of the, all of humanity, all of our experiences, all of our sadness, everything that we'll ever go through, and, uh, and, and, and paid for our, our sins, uh, then that, uh, burden on his knees made him sweat drops of blood.

And for me, that contact with that soil in Gethsemane, recognizing his divine parentage, that contact transformed the soil in the Garden of Gethsemane, uh, into the most fertile soil there is on earth. And, and so, uh, to, to be all in, I think it's, it's actually synonymous with me as having hope in Christ.

And, uh, and so you can say it, I think, in the same sentence, to, to be all in the gospel and to have hope in Christ, for me is the same. But, but what it means to me, Morgan, is that regardless of where we are in our lives, so whether or not we're, we're, we're, we have a repeat from we're struggling with addictive behavior, whether, uh, we are depressed or whether we're, uh, alone and, uh, we're having self-esteem issues, whether we're getting a divorce or whether we're struggling with whatever it might be, whether we're standing next to the bed or we're laying in the bed, when we get on our knees and say, "Heavenly Father, here I am again.

I need your help. Please be with me. Please help me understand. I can't imagine why I'm going through this. I can't imagine how I would have agreed to come, but I need your help, and I need you to be by my side. I need you to help me understand." And when we do that, then, then for me, offering that prayer is being all in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Bishop, thank you so much. See, I'm not, I'm not good at saying Phil. I'm sorry. This has been such a treat for me. I always love learning from you, and I just appreciate your time so much. Yeah, thank you, Morgan. It's just been a blessing, uh, for Greta and I, uh, to know you through these years and, and to, and, and, and now to watch you be a mother and take on, uh, new adventures in your life.

We're, we just can't wait to see you tomorrow. You're the best. You are. Thank you.

We are so grateful to Phil Millett for joining us on this week's episode. You can find Phil's book, From Rocks to You and Me, on Amazon, and it's available now. We are so grateful, as always, to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode, and we're grateful to you for listening.

We'll look forward to being with you again next week.