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One very important note before we get into this week's episode. This week is our season finale, and we'll be taking a break and returning September 14th with new episodes. I hope you have a wonderful summer or whatever season it is wherever you're listening, and I'll look forward to being back with you in September.

In 2020, I stumbled upon a podcast where Gary Miller, an independent fundamental Baptist pastor in Texas, shared the story of how he had recently joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I reached out, and we had a conversation that has stuck with me for years because of Gary's passionate witness of the truthfulness of the gospel and specifically the power of the Book of Mormon.

Five years later, though, it was really incredible to me to see how much the gospel has, as Gary described it so beautifully in this episode, gone from his head to his heart. Gary Miller is the host of a podcast called Outside the Lane, having previously hosted a podcast called Hope in Him Today. Before joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he served as an independent fundamental Baptist pastor.

He spent 11 years in the United States Air Force dividing his time between critical care medicine and professional development training as a master military training instructor. He holds a bachelor's degree from Wayland Baptist University and studied theology at Liberty Theological Seminary.

Currently, he works as a director of marketing for a Salt Lake City-based insurance firm and serves as a stake high counselor in the Katy Texas Stake.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question: what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have Gary Miller on the line with me. Gary, welcome. Thank you. It is great to be here. Appreciate it. So I should tell listeners that, uh, Gary and I had a conversation years ago, and I, Gary, I loved talking to you so much, and I have wanted other people to hear your story.

I wanna get caught up myself. I, I feel like I'm kind of, like, left on a cliffhanger. Like, where did we, where did we go from there? But I also have followed you on social media enough to know that a lot has happened with you and your family. And so I wanna start out, if you could tell me and those listening a little bit about your faith growing up.

You, you became a preacher, and you studied religion, but was that something that you were always interested in? Yeah, that's a great place to start. You know, I, I, I think When I was younger... So my parents divorced when I was seven, and I lived with my mother, who was an amazing woman, and, but had, had her hands full with a, you know, growing son that would become a quite rambunctious teenager, and I had a lot more hair then and was a little more wild.

A lot more wild. And, and so it was-- I remember at first we were kind of the classic, what, what some people would call the C and E kind of Christian, so Christmas and Easter. Right. Those were the only services we would go to. And we went to a, a little Southern Baptist church in Burke, Virginia. I remember the building.

I remember everything about it. But it was just kind of the main holiday kinda things. But I do remember being very inquisitive, not because I was super spiritual, but I had a lot of questions that my mom didn't necessarily have the answers to. Not in any bad way. She just wasn't that involved. But she-- I think she kinda felt like, you know, "It's a good thing that I take my son to church" kinda thing.

So there's some really good, I think, motives there. Right. But she didn't have all those answers, right? So I started asking these questions and... But never really pursuing it in any significant way. Uh, pursuit of things related to faith came much later. I was living in California. So I graduated from high school.

I grew up in northern Virginia, and I, you know, thought, "Well, what do you do when you graduate from high school?" Well, you should drive cross-country and make your living as a musician in LA. Naturally. So that's... That's, I mean, duh. So that's, that's what I did because I was, I, I was obsessed with guitars and, and loved playing and, and loved, you know, doing it.

And I went out there and I started playing and actually started working. Um, and it was in the midst of that, that I f- I had a friend of mine that I went to high school with that was going to school at Baylor, and he would randomly send me these cassette tapes that were, like, from their youth group, like devotionals, and they'd be like these, like, 30-minute...

And I'm dating myself. For everyone in the audience, these cassette tape things we're talking about, just think of it like a iPod on, like, a card or something. So I would listen to these messages, and I would th- he would send them to me. Like, it was his way of just sort of evangelizing and, and did it very softly, very sweetly, never, like, pushy.

Uh, but, and I would listen to them and I was... First of all, I was really kind of just attracted to the art of the sermon- Mm-hmm ... the art of preaching. hooked me. And, and I was like, "Whoa," you know, storytelling and how are we weaving this? And I didn't understand scripture, 'cause they would make these references, and I'd be like, "Huh?

I don't know what that is." So I remember going down to a, like, a local, uh, Bible bookstore, kinda Christian bookstore, and they had this big, huge vat of used Bibles. So I just grabbed one. I knew nothing about translations. I knew nothing about anything. I grabbed one so I could follow along with these tapes that my friend would send me.

And one thing led to another. I ended up joining the military, and, and in the process of that got really kinda super into the Bible, and then I went to... I did my undergraduate at Wayland Baptist University, and then decided to pursue seminary at Liberty Theological Seminary. And you could do it at distance courses at that point, and so you...

'cause I was in the military, so you're kinda all over the world. And, and, and it just kind of steamrolled from there. But yeah, a- as a young person, it wasn't, like, a major fabric of what we did, but it was just around enough that I kept being curious over the years. First of all, first thought is it's so interesting to me that the thing that drew you to religion is the art of the sermon.

Absolutely. And now you've ended up in a church where we give talks. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Have lots of talks. But I, I do think that it's so interesting, um, the many ways that people are drawn to Christ. Yeah. And I love that your friend sent you those tapes, and what a good friend. He did. I admire people that are willing to share the things that they believe in an unabashed way.

You mentioned, though, that you had a lot of questions, and that you would ask your mom those questions. Did you start to feel, as you studied in, at Liberty, did you start to feel like those questions were being answered, or did you still feel like there were holes? Well, I think that I have sort of perpetually been a seeker, so I'm still asking questions.

I think if, if I ever get to a place where I f- feel like I've arrived and I'm not asking questions, that would make me very uncomfortable. Mm-hmm. Whenever I'm sort of giving counsel to folks wherever they are in their journey or someone sends me something about a podcast episode or something, I, I commonly will tell folks that I hope you're still asking questions.

I, I really do, particularly in prayer and, and, and, and in the places that they can give you some really great supernatural answers. But yeah, when I was... I remember some of the answers started feeling like they were... Like they made sense, certainly scripturally, because we... I, I was fortunate that I came up in a system when I started, you know, planning our first church and was pastoring that my mentors were just so rigorous about scripture study and application.

And so that was just sort of bred into me. Like, it was in the DNA that, you know, you know the book if you're gonna preach the book. And so academically and sort of from a, you know, systematic theology way, you know, we understood what we were doing, but I was always still kind of a little uneasy at, at times when I'd be like, "You know, I feel like there's more to the story."

Or I would feel like, you know, well, the answers were sometimes a little too neat. You know? Mm-hmm. Well, you know, just because. And I'm like, "What do you mean just because?" A- and so even, even then, I was, I was asking and, and, and seeking, and I still do. So I mean, I think some of the answers were starting to come into focus, but did I have a, a high-def version of it?

No. Okay. Now, I would love for you to give us, however you'd like to tell it, how you came in contact with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when you were a preacher. Yeah. Well, so it kind of goes back. Let me, let me give you a little bit of pre, pre-story on this, right? Okay. This is the prequel to the, you know, series.

Perfect. We love a good prequel. For, for my Star Wars fans, we're prequeling right now. So when I was in high school, so my senior year in high school, this is right before I'm gonna go off and be, like, rock star in LA. Missionaries came knocking on my door. It was the first time I ever met a missionary, but I didn't know what they were associated with.

But, but, but sometimes I think I underpriced this in when I tell this story now, I-- but I think it's incredibly important. So the first seeds were planted by the first set of missionaries in that... Not that there was, like, a bunch of sophisticated doctrine or anything taught. They visited with me twice, and I thought that they were super interesting, though they were so opposite of what I was all about.

Like, I mean, come on, like, these are young Latter-day Saint missionaries, and I'm like the hair rocker guy. I'm like, "What are we doing here?" But I really, really liked them. Like, they were likable people, and I thought, "You know, it's cool to talk to these guys." Fast-forward, when I was driving, leaving California to go to, um, Florida, 'cause I was getting ready to enlist, I landed in the ER in Houston, ironically, where I live now.

Not so unironically. This is all set up, if you ask me. But anyway, I'm, I'm in an ER and, um, in the waiting room, and there were two missionaries in the waiting room. I don't know what they were doing there. I have no idea. I mean, I think I know what they were doing there. But, but they, they come up and they're talking to me in the waiting room, 'cause you're stuck in an ER waiting room, like, you've got nothing but time.

What a great place. Missionaries go to ERs. But yeah, no, I'm, I'm sitting there and, and they're, they're chatting me up. And I'm like, "Yeah, wait a minute, you guys have the tag thing or whatever." I'm like, "You were who I talked to, you know, back in the day." So I'd had some exposure, but these are all just little seeds, right?

You know, we, we-- this is very good New Testament theology that, you know, one person plants, another one waters, God gives the increase. It's all, it all works out. But when I was... I mean, you gotta understand, when I was preaching, I was an independent fundamental Baptist. So whatever you think about Baptists, put it on steroids, and you've got independent fundamental Baptists.

And by the way, I don't say that negatively at all. They're wonderful people. I, I learned how to preach there, learned the Bible there. Just amazing people, but it's, it's got some octane. Um, and it's got some octane if it's groups that aren't like us, like particularly when you think about folks like Latter-day Saints.

So whenever I heard about Latter-day Saints, it was pretty, pretty hostile. I mean, it was like, you know Other gospel, all the other, all the tropes, right? It's, it's another gospel, it's heretics, it's, you know, it's a cult, it's whatever. You know, all the stuff we all hear. And but I didn't really think much of it, 'cause that was not a side of, of the culture that I was really interested in.

It never sat right with me to just be like throwing shade on everybody else. Like, I just didn't understand it. I think probably early on I tried to do that. It just felt really uncomfortable. And so I never really got into it, but I knew that there were folks... I mean, I knew the, the relationship was adversarial.

And so, um, the way that it sort of collided with my life is, um, I'd gotten out of the military, was pastoring, doing the thing. I moved up here to the Houston area for a job, and part of the job is I'd have these longer road trips. And so driving across Houston is like an hour-plus affair if you're going from one side to the other.

It's a huge city. And so I'd get podcast recommendations, right? Like my Apple iTunes would just tell me like, "Based on stuff that you like, here's some things that you might Be interested in. Well, I look down 'cause I'm, I'm, I'm in the parking lot of a Kroger. I'd stopped to get a snack 'cause I had a long drive.

So I'm going to queue something up. I'm like, "I need something new. This drive is gonna be super long. What do they recommend?" Well, in the recommend area, someone had put the audio of the Book of Mormon on there. Still out there today. I don't know who owns that channel, but it's still sitting there, and the Book of Mormon was there, and I'm like, "Book of Mormon."

I'm like, "Well, you know what? If nothing else, it'll give me something to do. I'm gonna tear this stuff apart. Like, I'll listen to it, and I'll just, like, preach it down the whole way, and I'll pass the time." So I, I hit play, and, and look out. I mean, I'll just tell anybody, you know, if they you hit play, it's on.

And so at first, I mean, I'm going, "I have no context." Like, I'm hearing about witnesses and plates. I'm like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "No wonder everybody thinks this is wacky. Like, what are we doing?" But then we get going, and I start listening more, and I'm going, "Huh." I'm like, "Wait a minute." And so as I got back from that trip, I kept listening to the audio.

But being a scripture guy and where I came from, I was like, "I need to be able to see it. I can't just listen to this." But I didn't wanna tell anybody what I was doing, so I, I needed to do this on the down-low, right? 'Cause reputation and stuff. So I go out to eBay, and I order a copy of, like... What I didn't understand, it was a quad, right?

So I just get a... I thought this was the Book of Mormon, but it had everything in it. So I order this used copy. It comes to me, so now I'm listening and I'm following along, and I've got my Bible on the left, I got the Book of Mormon on the right. I still do that, by the way. And, and I'm marking it up, and I'm, you know, going through it and, and I discovered in that process...

I know, long answer, but I, I discovered through the process, I'm like, "Man, this... Something's going on here that either I'm having a bad moment or, like, I'm having, like, some... Maybe I've lost it." Like, I'm like, "Because this makes a lot of sense, like, a lot of sense." And 'cause I'm, I'm looking at both of them.

Like, I'm, I've got my, my King James, my Cambridge preaching King James on my left. I got the Book of Mormon on my right, and I'm going, "Man, these two things work really nicely together. Like, I could preach some of this stuff." Like, I would get into... I'm looking at the Book of Mormon. I'm like, "This will preach," right?

Like, and so I'm having that experience, and then that just goes on for a while. And then my first encounter, I promised I would land the plane here. So my first encounter was from that. At the time, I don't even know if they do this anymore, but you could go out to, like, comeuntochrist or whatever .org, and you could chat with a missionary.

And so I didn't have to put in my real name. So I could chat anonymously 'cause I had questions, right? I'm like, "What's going on?" But I could do it secretly. And so that's, that's how it off- how I officially started talking to missionaries at that point in my journey Okay, Gary, I have a couple of follow-up questions.

Yeah, of course. Of course. One, I think for somebody that grew up in the church- Mm-hmm ... it's hard for me to even imagine, like, reading the Book of Mormon for the first time or listening to the Book of Mormon for the first time. Mm-hmm. But I feel sometimes jealous of people having that experience- Yeah

especially as an adult. I'm like, how would it be, what would it be like for me to hear it for the first time? What would I be thinking? And so you said, like, it s- it felt like it made sense. Mm-hmm. What do you feel like were the things that initially stood out to you about the Book of Mormon? Yeah. So this will now begin our three-hour episode-

about teaching the Book of Mormon. Uh, no. So, so here's the thing about that. What stood out to me were very central themes that obviously resonated with where I came from and resonated with what I knew from scripture, but just took them to a level of sort of precision and, and, and some, and some direction that I didn't otherwise have.

Hmm. So I really think about a, a, a few things. One, the... Look, I believe simply that the Book of Mormon is a Jesus book. I say this everywhere I go. I say it all the time. It, it... I don't believe it's a Latter-day Saint book. I believe it's a Jesus book. And anybody that wants more Jesus, just start reading the Book of Mormon.

You're good to go. But so the, the central person that, that the roads keep pointing to in the Book of Mormon is Jesus. So I'm obviously... I was very excited about that. Two, the, the- The emphasis on faith. This is one of the main pillars of the Book of Mormon. One is Jesus, two is faith, and, and, and faith in all kinds of circumstances, but practically lived out faith that is not just faith I believe.

Great, I believe something nice. That's good. That's where I come from, right? Right? So, like, I mean, come on. This is like Protestant Reformation 101. So I'm like, "Oh, well, I believe." Ephesians 2:8-9, bless God, and we'd go off and preach. But no, I believe it enough that now I read the Book of Mormon. It's like, well, believe it enough to do some stuff.

And I'm like, "Oh, okay. That, that makes sense." And then the third thing that really stood out to me, which I think is a, one of the core messages of the Book of Mormon, is humility. So I'd tag that with re-- or chain it together with repentance. And it was everywhere. It's everywhere. Like, as a guy that has-- that reads the Book of Mormon cover to cover more times in a year than probably makes sense, and I still do it, like, I can tell you that those three things come up so much that it, it just made so much sense to my preacher brain, my Bible teacher brain.

That's why I was like, goodness, I could... If I didn't tell people... This is what I used to tell my wife all the time in the beginning. It's kinda how I sold her, 'cause at first she was like, "What?" But I, I told her, I was like, "You know, if I didn't tell people that this was in 3 Nephi or this was in Mosiah, if I didn't mention those names, I could preach the house down with these verses right now at my church And people would be like, "Amen, that's amazing."

I'm like, "No kidding. By the way, it's the Book of Mormon." So, so those things are what really jumped at me initially, and they still jump at me today. Like, I can't... Like, I cannot get through more than a page and a half without probably either circling something about Jesus, something about faith, something about humility leading us to repentance.

It's everywhere. So that's, yeah, that's what kind of stood out to me. See, I didn't do it as a three-hour lecture. That was good. I love that. Yeah. No, I think that was awesome. We'll get the three-hour version later. Yeah. But, uh yeah, it's at a lecture. I, I wanna, I wanna come back to, you mentioned Crystal and how- Yeah

initially you think she would've been like, "What is going on here?" What was... Talk to me about her reaction and also did you... I mean, you had to have gotten a lot of opposition initially. Yeah, so we'll start with her reaction. Okay. At least that was rooted in love. The other reactions were not so much. Yeah, at first she thought it was just another thing I was studying so that I would be educated on it, which I've done a lot of over the years as a, you know, someone preaching, and I would read all kinds of things.

You know, I've, I've read plenty of SDA stuff and plenty of JW stuff and plenty of Catholic stuff and, and, and, and things I've learned that are just wonderful and great people and really helped me and, uh... So, she just thought it was kind of part of that process for me. Um, but then she started noticing that it was a little more than, 'cause it kept like, it wasn't going away kinda thing.

And, uh, so initially I think she was a little standoffish, obviously, 'cause it's different and, and from where I was coming from, this is like not something you really did. And, and I say that not to be, like, as some kind of strange flex like, "Look, I was studying this secret thing that no, we shouldn't have been doing."

No, it's just like that was not a common experience that someone in IFB world would be looking at Latter-day Saint stuff. So, at least looking at it with an open mind. Right. Let me, let me clean that up. So, but I was very, had a very open mind. And so she was resistant, not resistant in any adversarial way at all, but, but it was a little prickly.

Like, it was like, you know, "What are you doing?" Like, "Okay," like, "Why are you reading it again?" And then when I, I... My first meeting with the online missionaries was, like, just me on the phone with them. But then when I invited Crystal to the second conversation, you know, that's when it got a little weird. But to her credit, she was so...

I mean, this is, this is her though. I mean, she's, she's incredibly bright, and she was willing to sit down and listen. Didn't say much, just listened. Was not, again, not contentious or any of that, just, just listened and Uh, you know, look, it's like anything else. We, we just, we just kind of plant the seed, let the Holy Ghost do the rest.

And so, yeah, that was it. Spirit draws, you know? We just, we just point people in a direction. And I, I didn't know what direction I was going in. Like, I knew what I was doing. I, I didn't know. I just thought, "I think I should keep investigating this, and we'll see where it lands." And it, it took a while and, uh, but- Well, you...

I think- We'll see where it goes ... one really important distinction here in your conversion is that you were giving up your livelihood, correct? Part of my livelihood. Okay. I mean, in my world you were bivocational, right? So I mean, you like- Okay ... worked a regular day job, if you would, but you also preached.

Uh, so I don't wanna oversell it, like I was gonna be eating peanut butter sandwiches or something as a result, but I... there was a lot of identity in there, right? Oh, definitely. I mean, this is what I had, we had really built. And I tell... I... Listen, I tell folks this all the time. There's a lot of that stuff I miss.

I mean, I miss... We were on a mission, man. It was like us against the world, and we were, we were started with, you know, 15 folding chairs and a living room. There was something about the sort of start-up nature of doing that thing. I, I loved, I loved who we were during that process. I mean, I think we were very, we were very zealous and very enthusiastic and, you know, we just believed, and there's a lot of that stuff that was just great.

But yeah, the, but that's part of the identity that you have to kind of shift when you're going from, you know, pastor guy, if you will, to now I'm just some dude sitting in the back, right? And, and so there's a lot there. Yeah. There's some ego shifting, talent usage shifting. There's, there's a lot of adjustment there, and that really, that took a while.

I mean, it took, it, it, that did not happen overnight and was certainly not a smooth process. I wanna talk about that. I think what you just said, though, is an interesting thing to think about in relation to people that leave our church. I think sometimes we don't think about how much of our identity is wrapped up in our religion.

Mm. And sometimes I think we need to give more grace to people who are, you know, trying to figure their faith out if they were raised within the Latter-day Saint culture and, and within the church. I think sometimes it's like, oh, well, they just decided to walk away from it, when in reality so much of who we are is shaped by our faith.

And so I love that you made that distinction. Okay- Can I, can I say something to that really quickly? Absolutely. I don't, I don't mean to No, I love it. I love it. I, I so appreciate what you said, and- I, I heard a long time ago, one of my mentors early on said to me, "Just 'cause somebody takes a road different than you doesn't mean they're lost."

And I remember sitting in the class going, "Wait a minute." Like half the time we always assume that if somebody jumped or did something, like there was something wrong or they, they didn't care or they didn't believe or whatever, and we'd, we'd really oversimplify What was often very complex and nuanced.

And so I, I really-- I just, my heart connected so much with what you said because I think it's very important. I mean, I, I just believe as a, as a feature of who we are, I think the default position should be more grace period. I mean, it just-- we need more of it everywhere. Right. I certainly need it, you need it, people need it.

But yeah, I think these things are... Like when we went, of course, people made some incredibly said some impressively hurtful things and, you know, made videos about me and all this kind of stuff, and it was really ugly. And I didn't mind it as much. When my wife saw it, she was really hurt by it and it was really rough.

And I thought, "You know, these are people that have never even met us in some cases and, and they don't know anything about us, and they-they're jumping to a whole set of conclusions." And it gives me a lot of pause now when I have-- if I interact with that from somebody leaving our church. Right. Not because I'm, I'm, you know, celebrating that people are leaving.

Uh, obviously I'm not. But I, I think we really need to pump the brakes on these wild assumptions that we may make. And I-- and we all do. We're human. We do that. We jump, and it just gets weird. But I, I, I think there's so much more to it. And for someone to pull themselves from things that they are deeply ingrained in emotionally, their family, spiritually, um, community, culture, all these things, that is not, um...

I don't think anybody wakes up one day and goes, "You know what I think, um, would be great? I think I'm gonna blow up this part of my world 'cause I think it'd feel great." I don't think anybody does that. It'd be fun. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah, and I, I just think we-- I would encourage all of us, and certainly, um, wherever I am in my calling and the stuff I do, whether it's on a podcast or whatever, I'm, I'm constantly beating that drum of careful, you know, when we're jumping to these conclusions.

Because we start getting into this weird us versus them kind of thing by default. Right. And, and I think that's just completely antithetical to the gospel. We miss the point, and I just, um, yeah, I just think we need to be careful. So I just really appreciated what you said. No, I love that you, I love that you made that point.

Somebody close to me left the church a handful of years ago and, and a friend said, "You know, there are certainly people that, that leave faith because something about who they are or would like to be doesn't agree with this set of standards within the church." Sure. But they said, "This person everything about who they are- is wrapped up in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Mm. And so choosing to step away from that is not an easy or a thing to be taken lightly. Yeah. And I've thought about that so many times. Mm. So I, I admire you, Gary, for doing what you felt guided to do, which was to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Remind me, did Crystal join at the...

Did you guys get baptized at the same time? We did. Okay. Yeah. That I do remember. Now, the fir- the first, the first time it was scheduled, I canceled it, 'cause I thought I was coming to my senses. Okay . So we have to... I wanna be as honest and transparent as I can here. Sometimes it bothers me about conversion stories, 'cause we kind of oversell the beauty of all the process, and that's wonderful.

The linear nature. Yeah, yeah. They're not. I think the, the real conversion is ugly and messy, and we're still trying to figure it out. That's why we need grace, amen. But yeah, I think, like, I canceled the first one, and I r- and I remember I put the Book of Mormon, like, literally on the top shelf. I took all my notes, I put everything away.

I was like, "Dude, dude, get your act together. Like, what are you doing? Like, stop." And that lasted approximately six hours, and I was like, "Dude, hold on." So I go back to reading it again, and I called the missionaries. H- I, oof. Again, I don't wanna make this a fishing story. A couple weeks later, I was like, "Okay.

Yeah, we're good. Let's go." But I said, "I need it fast. Don't give me time to wait." Like, we need to get in. Like, it's kinda like the way I feel about the temple now. This is off topic. If I book a temple visit more than two days in advance, I won't go. Like, so I, I've canceled more appointments than I've kept.

Wow. I have to do it same day or next day, all right? There'll be too much stuff that'll come up, right? Right. Like, it has to be that way. And so I told him, I'm like, "You better get me in the water, man." Like, and Crystal's ready. We're good. And so yeah, we got baptized together. It was great. Okay. And, um, did your kids get baptized as well?

I can't remember how old they were ... eventually Yeah ... eventually, yes. Okay Not yet, not, not in that session. Okay 'Cause we, we got baptized, and then two weeks later, the church shuts down for COVID. Awesome. And, uh, and by the way, dear audience, that is not awesome. So that was... That made this whole thing super strange.

And but we, uh... Then once, during COVID, thankfully, uh, a good... The person who baptized me and was kind of my unofficial mentor, who, who just became a 70 a little while back, and we still talk, he was like, "I, I think I can get the stake president to let us do this in, in my pool. Can you baptize, you know, our two oldest daughters?"

I'm like, "Yeah, let's go." So I... Most some of my favorite pictures are us in this freezing pool water in the back of the now 70's house, and I baptized them in, in the pool, and then brought them out, and yeah, we did the whole thing there. Okay. It was awesome. Yeah. And then, then later, obviously when Miriam was old enough, I baptized Mimi, not in the pool.

We were back in regular church stuff and, yeah, here we are. Okay. And then you mentioned COVID. Yeah. And I know, Gary, based on Facebook, my guess is that COVID has not been the only part of becoming a member of the church that has been quite an adjustment, and that there haven't been, like, some road bumps in the road.

And I think that it's important for people to, to recognize that. So can you speak a little bit to kind of maybe to a new member of the church about what you experienced? Yeah. So And I'm glad l- we give the, the setup. Let's remove the COVID period. Okay. 'Cause it's just weird and that's- Just weird ... an anomaly, and, like, no one knows how to do that, so that's- Let's never do that again.

Yeah, yeah. Right? And I wanna be, I wanna be, I wanna be mindful here, say something I think is important. I, I don't think... You know, I, I, I lean on James, right? "Confess your faults one to another." I, I, I think my, my first reactions to how things went for us in COVID and how, like, we interacted with the church, I was very critical of that at the time.

And I, I don't think I was wrong to be frustrated in the privacy of my home, but I, I think there was so much that I didn't understand, and I think I was a little early on my being critical, right? Like, I was, I was a little hot because, you know, I'm like, "Man, I-- Wait a minute." I thought, like, one of the whole things, we want to be connected to a community.

Now we don't have one. Like, what are we doing here? And so I, I, I just like to own that in that, that era of this journey, I don't, I don't think I did very well. And so I think it's, you know, that's why we have repentance. But coming in and the things that are adjusting and thinking about speaking to a new member, I, I would just give really simple counsel, right?

So one is, uh, that you just have to... This is gonna take some time. And, and what I mean by that, you're just gonna have to get enough reps and, and exposure to some of this stuff for it to start to get from, like, your head, and then to your heart, and then into practice, and you can't rush that. There are people that are gonna wanna try.

You know, they're probably like, "You should be here at some point," as if there's a, you know, a timetable. We're all running this race at our own pace. I mean, it's just... And w- we all tend to be a little selective about the way we recount our story. The way we tell it, it's like, "Oh, I just believed it.

Everything was great." You know, as you said, straight path. No, it wasn't. You know, I mean, it, it, it takes... There are some bumps. And so the first thing is just patience. Patience with yourself, patience with the people you're encountering, because a lot of members of our church have no idea how to interact with new members in a way that doesn't feel like a project.

And it's not because they're bad people or that they're malicious. It's, it's not that at all. They just, they don't know, like, beyond, like, the basics. And so I would just, you know, say be patient, again, with yourself. It's gonna take you a while to pick up some things more than others. I did not cross the threshold of a temple until four years into my game.

So that wasn't on anybody's timetable, and it wasn't 'cause I was cranking Starbucks in the parking lot. My Baptist brain was just like, "What are you doing?" Like, "What are we talking about?" It took time. So patience, I think, with yourself and others is one I think also just, um, trusting that you're gonna have to spend some time kind of redefining some terms.

Especially if you come from a background like mine, a lot of the language was similar, but the definitions are not the same. So it's, it's a, it's like a language dialect issue, right? Like we, we speak the same language, but we're from different regions, so some of the words are a little different, and we can throw you.

And so you can say things and people are like, "What are you talking about?" They can say things and you're like, "Huh?" And you just talk past each other, and it's just gonna take some time to understand the language. And, and I think the third thing, and I would just close on this section, would be, uh, when, when all else fails and, and you're frustrated and you don't know what you're doing, and some of it feels weird, and it will.

And I'm, I'm on a mission to try to get every member to stop making it weird, but I'm just one guy, and we're working on that. Like, we're just, we're trying to. Like, don't make it weird. Just be like, talk about normal stuff. Like you don't-- Not everything is some profound supernatural experience. We might just be having a hot dog or at a grill out or something like.

You know, 'cause I mean, I would. You know, it still happens to me, even in my calling now. Like I'll be, I'll be sitting there and we're just like having a burger and someone wants me, "You know, this, this hamburger, you know, is a little burnt today. You know, it kinda reminds me..." And they start going on some spiritual lesson.

I'm like, "Dude, we're just having burgers. Can we just talk like normal people?" So, so there's gonna be some of that. And, and I just think that, um, you're gonna have to get used to the terms. But the, but the center point, the, the, the thing home is, is the Book of Mormon, right? It's the scriptures. So if all else fails and everything is off the, off the track, and it will be at some point, just make sure that every single day you are reading, and to use the proper language, pondering.

Other words, just think about the thing. Think about what you're reading, and just keep doing that. And you know, a common phrase in recovery circles that I love, 12-step programs say it a lot, it's simple. It's just, "Just keep coming back." That one piece of advice will help you in your journey as a new member probably more than just about anything.

Because ultimately, just coming back means you're gonna get more reps, you're gonna feel more comfortable. More comfortable means more confidence. You'll feel like you belong. I mean, I, I still... I don't know. Mm. 40, 50% of the time still feel like a visitor. I still feel like a new guy, you know? Like, it just still...

Depends on the room I'm in, right? Like, if I'm speaking, I don't. Like, I feel like I'm in the wheelhouse, right? But if I'm at some random thing and I'm just like, "Where are we going?" Like, I don't know. Like, the temple, I still feel like totally new. Like, it's embarrassingly new, right? I just still don't know what I'm doing.

But, um, I think those are the things I would think about. Just core, real simple stuff, but ultimately just, just keep coming back. It'll work out. Learn the language differences. There's gonna be some vocab things. Be patient with yourself, and be patient with other people, you know? I mean, there's, you know, there's always people that are gonna drive you nuts.

You're not called to, to like everybody, but you are called to love them, so figure out a way to love them. Some people are harder to love than others, but, you know, it's all good. Just keep doing it. I love what you said about just keep coming back, and you mentioned the temple. So I will tell you, Gary, when I went through the temple for the first time, it was not the greatest experience.

Yeah. And I think a lot of times people think like, oh, it has to be this, like, really great... It's a monumental moment in my life. I need it to be this really great experience. But fortunately, I had a dear friend who before I went through she said, "Don't, don't overthink it the first time." And she's like, "Just go back quickly after."

And I've always been so grateful for that advice- Good advice ... because I think if I had gone the first time without that, I would've just been like roll me over. You know? Like, I don't know. I don't know exactly what my thought process would've been, but I also would not have been in a hurry to come back because I didn't love it.

And so you said it took four years for you to, to go to the temple. Tell me about kind of that process and how you ended up going. Thank you for sharing your own story, though. I love that kind of honesty. We need more of that, particularly around this topic. I think... So let me, let me set this up this way, and I'll, I'll be very careful with this, the way I say this.

I, I say it in the most general sense possible. I think sometimes the temple particularly is one of these areas where we can strangely oversell the wrong things with it. And what I mean by that is that often I would hear people in that four-year prep time, if you will, that was a really long temple prep class.

Um, so there, there was, there was, you know, this... There would always be this kind of mystical, almost woo element of these things that were going on, and I just couldn't seem to find someone that would talk to me in a language that I understood, which for me was like scripture, right? Like, y- t- somebody please, like, give me...

Talk to me in a language... I, and I think that's just, like, we can take a small super quick diversion here. It, it, it's important to kind of figure out when you're talking, particularly to new members, but anybody, like, what, what language and what approach is gonna resonate with them? You can save a lot of time and a lot of frustration for both of you if you just would figure that out instead of just one blanket way.

'Cause generally it was like, "Hey, Gary, here's a book." I had like a leaning tower of temple books, like, and I read all of them, but I'm like, "Yeah, we're still not in the temple." So, like, I need somebody to talk to me in a way that kinda makes sense. And so, um I think this is where my background was a bit of a hindrance in the beginning because it was just so different.

You know, this is not something that is... You know, this is where you've gotta go to the right in your quad, and that was new ground for me, right? You gotta go to the right. There's, there's kinda two ways to do this. Book of Mormon, Bible to the left. I'm going, "You're not getting me there. This is to the right stuff."

And largely, everybody settle down if you will. You know, I, I know there's, there's some scripture guy out there going, "What? But in the Old Testament..." I, I got it. I got it. But the point is, it's more to the right. And so I remember f- kind of fighting that a lot, but it wasn't some magical spiritual moment, or it wasn't one thing that somebody said.

It just occurred to me. I remember, and I f- I wanna say it was after a general conference, but... And I remember saying to Crystal, I'm like, "You know what occurs to me? That a huge part of this Latter-day Saint experience, I don't know what the percentage is in a pie chart, but a huge part of it we're not experiencing yet 'cause we've never been to it.

So maybe this is gonna be part of the thing that helps us make sense of, like, what, how this all connects." So it's kind of much more practical for me 'cause I, I thought we're missing a big part of the story here, and maybe if we knew that part of the story, maybe we would feel like this was more like we weren't completely nuts for the decision we made, right?

And, and that's what kinda led to that. But again, thankfully, my, my, my good friend, who was the same person who let us baptize in his pool, he just kept taking my calls. And I, I remember I, I texted him and I'm like, "Hey, man, I, I w- Okay, we're ready. Excuse me. We need to go to the temple." And he's like, "Okay."

And so he just sorta cleared the path. And he did the smartest thing, and I've shared this before. He took me and Crystal just up to the temple to let us go in and, like, meet the temple president, and we got to kind of walk around to the sections that we were allowed to walk around in and just kinda be in there, like a little tour, if you will.

Game over. Like all he did, and it was so well played, and not played like, like manipulative. It was just so well played. He takes me into where the baptist- where the baptisms were going on, and there was this huge mural. It's like Jesus and John, this whole thing, and he's just like, "Yeah." He's like, "Gary, you know, just sit down.

I'll be back in a minute." And I was like, "Okay." And so Crystal and I are sitting there in silence looking around at this thing, and I was like, "Okay, yeah, we're cooked. Like we gotta do this now. Like get the recommends, let's go." So we were in the office th- that night getting the recommends finished, and we were like, "All right, let's get in."

And that was... Then, then we just scheduled it and went. Like within the next week we were there. And so we did our, you know, our first like proper, "Okay, we're... I guess we're getting endowed now." And then we did that, and then we got sealed, and that was... Yeah. Just, uh, only took four years. Seen it grow. And what would you say Did you feel like that those things that you had wondered, are these the things that will kind of make more sense if we've gone through the temple?

Did those things start to make more sense? Not initially, but I did have more common language and experience, which helped me to connect a little bit better with the people around me. Okay. So we had a real connectivity issue. Like, we're like, "Man, I can't seem to, like, find people to connect with." Like, we're...

Like, it's cool, like, we get along, but we just didn't feel like we were, like, in. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but I-- It just, we didn't feel like we were in the thing all the way, right? Yeah. So at least it gave me some common experience. So now I could be like, "Well, actually, I... Yes, I, I have been to the temple."

"I mean, I have been sealed." You know, these things that we talk about all the time in the church. So now we were like, "Oh yeah, we're totally on the in team now," right? But, but it did start to come together a little bit more. I was just at the temple, I don't know, seven, eight days ago or something. Myself and our stake president was going 'cause we, we work together a lot and, and get to do stuff together in the church.

And so I remember we were walking out and I said, "Hey." I said, "Get this, I totally knew, like, more of the stuff this time." I wasn't freaking out during the endowment. Like, I didn't, like, I... 'Cause I was always like, "And thank goodness they put, like, the pictures up and, like, tell me what I'm doing," but... And I'm not giving away anything here.

Like, this is okay. Like, I, I knew I could follow along. Yeah. But I was like, "Hey, I know what I'm doing a little bit." Like, now, do I know all the deep meanings? Of course not. We're still figuring that out. But at least I was able to, like, not be having a mild panic attack, worried that I was, like, putting the wrong thing on or standing in the wrong place or saying the wrong stuff.

'Cause there's always this wonderful moment, even for me now, and I just think that this is a God thing, I, I really do. You know, whenever, you know, you get to the end of an endowment and I'm walking up, and thankfully there are temple workers there, and I always say the same thing, and it's not like a line.

Like, I mean it from the bottom of, like, my heart. I'm like, "Hey, I'm still pretty new at this. Will you help me?" That phrase, I think, does more in the supernatural for my progression 'cause it puts me in the right spot right before I'm getting ready to do what I'm getting ready to do. Right. And, um, and I'm still asking.

I still ask it all the time. It sounds like me in this church, you know. "Hey, I'm still new to this thing. Would you help me?" Right. Well, and I think that it's not until... Well, for me, it wasn't until I worked in the temple and got those, like, reps over and over and over again- Yeah, yeah ... that then I was able to relax, and then you can think- Yeah

about something other than feeling that panic attack feeling. Yeah. And so if you haven't gone enough for that, for that feeling to subside, then it, it gets tricky. Just keep coming back. Yes, yes. It comes back to it again. Yeah. I love that. Okay, Gary, you're six years in to membership in the church, six and a half.

Is that right? Yeah, six years and four months-ish. Yeah. Okay. Um, how would you say at this point the gospel of Jesus Christ, your membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has blessed your life?

I, I think the amount of change that it has both challenged me to undertake and opened my eyes to about just myself, about being a husband and being a dad and, you know, being a coworker and being a friend I think that it is so practical and instructive that it's just helped me so much to get better.

However you define better, everyone's gonna define that a little bit differently. But for me, it's been just a, a process of having a lot of things inside of this thing we call the gospel to help me in these areas that are so-- Some of them are really tough. You know, sometimes being a dad is incredibly hard.

My oldest daughter just turned 16, and I am so wildly unprepared for that. I am-- And, and I need all the help, supernatural and natural, I can get. And I think about things just like that, and I, and I think about, you know, providing for a large family and the things you have to do there, both financially and spiritually, and how do you manage that?

And it's just really given me very practical tools and a framework, you know? I, I'm sure that sounds probably cliche, but it, it, it really gives me, um... You know, it's kinda like this divine GPS that's telling me where to turn, you know, and lets me know when I've missed, and we need to, you know, recalculate, right?

And, and it's just really helped me in that way, and I think it's just changed my heart, and I still need a lot more changing. I'm a, I'm a-- I fail a, a lot, but I, I think that it, it continues to change my heart. When I first came in, it was changing my head. Six years later, it's changing my heart. I love it. I love, Gary, having this conversation after talking to you six years ago.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting. I, I love-- I don't know, I don't know how to put it, but it's been really neat for me. I, I've never had this experience of, like, the before and after. But you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your light and your testimony. Testimony, that's one of those words that's different- Sure

in other churches, right? My last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I thought you were gonna ask me that. I thought I ruined that- You had a feeling ... pretty much. Sneaky suspicion. Yeah. Yeah, I've listened to enough episodes that, yeah. So I, I would give kind of a, of, of a two-parter on this, but I'll keep it short, I promise.

No, you're great. Um, the, the, the first thing for being all in is I'm just trying my best to orient my, my thinking and my life and practice, my words, this thing I'm doing, if I'm fortunate enough to wake up every day, trying to orient that to Jesus as much as I possibly can A-and there's all kinds of opportunities to do that, and there's all kinds of opportunities to, to mess that up.

But I'm, I'm, I'm looking for Jesus, and I think this is probably the one area I probably said the same thing six years ago. I'm always looking for Jesus, and I haven't stopped looking. And so to be all in for me is, is to keep looking even when I don't feel like looking. Uh, but also being all in is, is at least having some capacity to go, "You know what?

I don't have all this figured out, and I probably need to humble myself more than wherever I think I'm at, and be open and ready for God to work what He works in my life," whether that's through people or through the scriptures or through a still small voice or through whatever it is, a circumstance.

I've gotta be willing to, to be humble enough to listen. I came from a place where all you did was talk a lot. You preached loud, right? There was a lot of talking. Good stuff. But being all in for me is I gotta spend just as much or probably a lot more time listening Well, you are remarkable, Gary, and I am just so appreciative to have had this opportunity to chat.

Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure. We gotta do it again. Yes, sir. Thank you. We are so grateful to Gary Miller for joining us on this week's episode. As always, big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode, and we'll look forward to being back with you in September.

Take care, everyone.