Morgan Jones Pearson 0:00

Warning: The episode you're about to hear involves gun violence.

On August 28, 1996, as simple first date between high school seniors Zachary Snar, and his friend Yvette Rodier took a horrifying turn. As Zachary was showing his date what he'd recently learned about how to photograph the moon, a complete stranger began shooting at them in act of senseless violence. Zachary's life was tragically cut short while Yvette miraculously survived. The story surrounding the events of that night was told in a podcast that was released last year by KSL called The Letter. I've never been a big True Crime podcast girl, but as my husband and I listen, there was something different about the letter. There is light and I believe that light comes because at the end of the podcast first episode, we hear Zachary Snarr's mother on the phone with the man who killed her son. At the end of that call, we hear her say, love you, George. How could this be? Can someone really love the person who killed their son? When George Benvenuto sent a letter to Sy Snarr, he didn't expect forgiveness. He didn't feel he deserved it. But he did want Zach's family to know that he was sorry. What he didn't know is that Sy Snarr's heart had been prepared over the 22 years since her son's passing. And when she receives a letter from George who is still serving a prison sentence two decades later, she was ready not only to forgive, but to love. Sy Snarr is a proud mother and grandmother whose remarkable witness of the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is shared in the KSL True Crime podcast The Letter.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have Sy Snarr on the line with me today. Sy, welcome.

Sy Snarr 2:03

Thank you.

Morgan Jones Pearson 2:05

Well, I have been so inspired by your example. And my husband and I listened to The Letter. We absolutely loved it not because the story is a happy one, but because I feel like your example is just, the example of you and your family, both, is so powerful. And I think it's the kind of story that we we need in the world today. So I'm curious, before we get into talking a little bit more about your experience and what you've learned from it. First, how would you describe where your faith was at the time of Zach's passing?

Sy Snarr 2:50

Well, it wasn't where it is now. I think I would have considered myself a mediocre Mormon, like, quote, unquote, you know, just don't go to church to do your calling, but but I didn't. I don't feel like I was in the Gospel, then like I am now. The experience I've had, the last 27, almost 27 years has totally changed my perspective, and makes me realize that it's so important just to stay in tune. It's not like, you know, I didn't go to church. I did. But you know, you go to church, and you think, okay, that's, I've done my thing for the week. See you next Sunday. God, you know, and I think I was more that way. And I'm not proud to say that, but um, I'm just being honest.

Morgan Jones Pearson 3:36

Well, I appreciate your honesty. And I think it's, it's interesting how something like this has the ability to turn us more toward God or more away from him. And so as we as we talk together today, I think people will get a sense for how this experience impacted you and impacted your faith. The podcast sigh opens with you recalling a conversation you and Zach had on the day of his passing earlier in the day, and he had cleaned up your kitchen. Yes. And you came in and you had a had a conversation with him. But you said that there were things that you wished you had told them in that conversation. And I wondered, I think it's so easy. When we're talking about something that's happened that we can't change. It's easy to focus on regret, and what we wish we had done differently. So I wondered what have you learned about regret and forgiving oneself for anything that we wish we'd done differently?

Speaker 2 4:45

Well, let me start by saying, you know, two conversations with him that day, early in the morning because he came into my room every morning before he'd go to school or to work to tell me he loved me. Or tell me I'm the greatest. You know, this is an 18 year old boy which I think is amazing. hazing. I don't think there's a lot of 18 year old boys do that for their mom. But yes, when I came home from work that night, I was in a hurry because I was going to dinner. And I just ran into the kitchen, and it was just spotless. And he was standing there. And I said, Who cleaned my kitchen? You know, because I knew I had not left it that clean. And he said, I did it for you, Mama. And I said, Thanks, Zack, you know, and my regret is that I didn't just stop and telling you're the greatest, you know, and how much I loved him. I mean, it's like, you're always in a hurry, hurry, gotta go here, gotta go there. And what's important isn't, you know, a dinner date. What's important is that I take a minute and say, How was your day, you know, what's, tell me about your day and what's going on, you know, and just telling him again, how much I love him, I just learned that you need to tell people you love every time you have a chance that you love him. And I regret not doing that. I know, he knew that I loved him. But you know, just to have that last chance to say I love you. And to know that like the last thing I said to him. But I've always been grateful, I noticed that he cleaned it. You know, if I hadn't even I mean, he knew I appreciated it. But I just think you need to take, what you need to do is prioritize what's really important in your life. You know, it's your family, it's your loved ones. And it isn't like, Oh, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. I missed an opportunity there. I think to just tell him one more time how much I loved him. That is a huge regret of mine, that a dinner date was more important than stopping to have a conversation with my son.

Morgan Jones Pearson 6:49

Well, and I think it's interesting how so many of us can have little interactions like that, where we replay it in our minds and what we could have done differently. But I also love the thing I love about that story. And I love that the podcast starts out with it is what a good kid.

Sy Snarr 7:08

He was he still is. I'm sure he was.

Morgan Jones Pearson 7:13

So special. Okay, say you, you talk about and this is I think the podcast does such a good job of giving us a taste of how angry and bitter your family felt after this, and how could you not it would be impossible not to feel those feelings. But I wondered how would you describe personally, the anger and bitterness that you felt after Zach's death? And why was working through those feelings necessary? And how did you see how those types of feelings can hold us back if we allow them to stay with us?

Sy Snarr 7:54

It will. I was at first just in such shock, you know kind of denial that this has actually happened. But the Comforter was with with this first with me. And I really felt that. And it got me through those first hard days that got me through the funeral. But I knew the second the comforter left me. I knew it. And I hit rock bottom. I was in such a dark, dark place. I was devastated say the least the reality that he really wasn't coming home and set in and I was so depressed and grieving that I just had so much anger in me that it had even happened. I was angry at George obviously for doing it. I was angry at God, because I knew he could have stopped it. I'm just being honest here. I'm gonna be totally glaze. But I knew that. I just thought Why didn't you stop this? Why you could have stopped this. Why didn't you you know, I could not understand how something that awful could happen to Zack. And I just, you know so many people tried to help me and they would tell me how you need to forgive him. You're you know that that's what you have to do. Well, I seriously wanted to scratch their eyeballs out when they said that to me. Like no, I don't and I won't I'll never forgive him. I don't want to forgive him. I hate him. I I can't. I wished I knew how many times I said those words. I hate him. Because I sent it to everybody how much I hated him for taking Zach away. And I just there was no light in my life. I wasn't allowing it in and it was that was on me. I didn't I didn't really turn to God because I was angry at him and the whole world. I was angry at other mothers who had their 18 year old sons and I know it's totally irrational. But I can't describe it's hard to describe the depths of my hatred and anger at that time. And I, I just didn't think I'd ever be happy again, honestly, I thought I will never be happy again, how can I be happy when a big part of my heart is gone? You know, and I was that way for a long, long time. But then you, I just started realizing how I could see what I was doing to my family. I had three other kids that were everything to me to, you know, I love just as much as I love Zach, and I could see what I was doing to them. And I knew, I knew that I had to pull myself out of that. And, and I had to work through that anger, especially towards God, because I needed to turn to him, you know, and ask for help and had to humble myself. And I did.

Morgan Jones Pearson 10:47

And that's how have you seen? How have you seen psi since then how like, allowing that burden to be taken from you allows you to be able to move forward?

Speaker 2 11:00

Well, I knew that I had to let it go. And I knew at that point in this I'm talking two years here, this wasn't like next week or anything. I think I finally realized after 15 years, that this was destroying me, this hatred and anger that I carried with me, was like this heavy weight on myself, you know, there's always they're always there. And everywhere I looked, I would see Zach or think of Zach, like he shouldn't be doing this, you know, I'd see all his friends going on missions and getting married and while that was painful, you know, and he wasn't, he wasn't here to do that. And I just I knew that I had to move on. I had to let it go. And I just started praying, I prayed so hard for help. Because I knew I couldn't do it alone, I knew that I needed a Savior to help me which he had already atoned for that for me, as all I had to do is reach out to him and he was there. And I'm not saying you know, instantly it happened. It didn't I had to really work hard and struggle through that time. And I'd make some progress and then think of something or see some something or somebody say so they brought it all back and I get angry all over again. So it's like one step forward. And five back. I didn't forgive George for him because I seriously thought I'll never see him I'll never have I'll never see him. And I'm doing this for myself. Because I had become an angry, bitter person. And I didn't like it because I've always been a happy person and I love doing fun things with people and love my family being with my sewing joy, you know, and I wasn't doing that. And I just thought I want to be that person again. And that's I had to drag myself out of that dark hole and searched for the light and I found the light.

Morgan Jones Pearson 12:45

One thing that stood out to me I really listened to the podcast as I was preparing for this interview. And one thing that stood out to me was when your daughter described how she would describe you prior to Zacks passing and she described you is larger than life. And I think that you know there is that desire to get back to this as this is who I was before and I know that I was that, but somehow I have to bridge that gap. But it wasn't just you sigh at one point your daughter said that George was not a person he was an animal. And the attorney said that they didn't think that they would ever see your family forgive George. At the end of the first episode we hear you sigh tell George that you love him on a phone call. So tell me how does that even happen? And what makes that type of forgiveness possible?

Sy Snarr 13:46

Well the atonement makes it possible that's for sure I give full credit to my savior for that I didn't think I would ever be happy you know like I said I didn't I didn't I we did hating we we hated him the attorneys knew that we hated them we hated anybody who was on that side of the courtroom that's how bad how irrational we were it's so hard to explain it you have to want to do it you have to want to do it for yourself you know you can you can hate him all you want and all this but does it hurt him? No it doesn't. You're hurting yourself. You're destroying yourself you're destroying your your soul. Really I just felt like I my soul was tortured it was broken. With the sandwich I carried and I just really had to the way you do it is you fight back you you turn to God you turn to the Savior. You pray a lot and let them guide you. You know I've always been impressed. You know, you don't read about in the scriptures. You don't read about the Savior hanging out with some good people, you know The the people who were doing everything right, he was always with the senators and always with the people who needed him most. And he was always there for him and is just like, Layman and let me know how they over and over again would be awful and then ask for forgiveness and then they do it again hit then they were forgiven and they'd ask for it again, do it again and ask for it again and it just back and forth. And I realized, you know, he's always there for you. He never says, No, you've had your chance, it's over. Or I think I just be done, you know, I wouldn't have any hope. It's totally through the atonement. I just had never thought about the atonement until I needed it so badly. When you know, when this happened, and I turned to the Savior.

Morgan Jones Pearson 15:47

So Amy Donaldson who hosted the letter told me that, that you and her were speaking at a some kind of fireside, and that a woman came up and said that are multiple women. I can't remember she said one or more but said, the the overwhelming response was, I don't understand how you just make a choice to do that. So for those that are like, how do you reach that decision to forgive? How do you get your heart to that place? And I know you said it takes time. It's not like a split second decision. But how what would you say to those that are like, Well, how do you just choose to forgive in that way?

Sy Snarr 16:34

Well, you have to want to you have I wanted, I want it to be different. I wanted my life back. I wanted to feel joy again, you have to want it. You can't just say well, I guess I better do it and do it. You have to really want it and be sincere about it. I wanted to be happy again. And I knew Zack wanted me to be happy again. And that I don't even know what else to say. You just have to decide yourself. No, you can't. Nobody can tell you how you should feel. And I think everybody has the right to mourn the way they need to mourn. And they I feel like I actually I feel like I was justified in my feelings at first because it was horrific. But I was tired carrying the burden and I wanted to change. And I knew to change that I needed to have forgiveness and and it happened before I ever ever got a letter from him. I had forgiven him. And I thought it's it's really sad. I can't tell him that I forgiven him. But I thought he doesn't care. He doesn't. I never thought he cared because he never, ever talked in the court. He never he had chances to make statements he never did. And every chance I got I did. And I let him know how I felt at that time. You know, so he he knew what my feelings were and what our feelings were he knew one of the reasons it took him a while to send the letter. Right.

Morgan Jones Pearson 18:12

Let me ask you this sigh. I know that there were a couple of points in which your membership in the church kind of plays into this story. A talk was given in church about forgiveness, that that kind of influence that desire. But talk to me about how your understanding of the gospel and your membership in the church influenced your desire to forgive George.

Sy Snarr 18:38

Okay, well, I have a friend in the world called me on a Sunday morning and said, I'm giving a talk in church today. And I'm afraid it might upset you. And she told me what it is about. And I said, Well, I want to hear that, you know, and I just think it was just meant for me to hear that talk. Because it touched my soul. It It touched me and I thought this is what I want. This is what I want. I want to let this go I want to forgive. I truly forgive him. And I want to see Zach again. I mean, eternal families. That's, that's the big thing for me right here is I know that I will see him again. And if I can't forgive, then I won't get to be with him where he is because I know. I know that that forgave him instantly. I know he did. Because that was Zach and I had people who had experiences I didn't because I don't think it was because I wasn't in a good place spiritually. But some people were in they had had seen him and he told him, they knew that he had forgiven him instantly and that he wanted us to forgive. You know, and I wanted to be with him. I wanted to see Zach I wanted to live with him again. And this talk, I just sit there. And I thought, that's what I want. I want to feel that kind of joy. Again. And that's when I really got serious about striving to do better.

Morgan Jones Pearson 20:15

Well, I think I love that that story because I think such a classy, thoughtful move by the woman giving the talk in church to be sensitive a stack that you would be there and listening. And that way, when you did hear the talk, you were prepared for it and not caught off guard and able to fill the spirit. I think that's such a such a good example. Say you have lost not just one but two sons. You're your son, your youngest son, is that right? Your son, Levi. Levi passed away from cancer. Yes. And in both cases, you've said that the grief was devastating. But I think it's probably fascinating for you to experience both kinds of grief, a grief in which you can point a finger and point blame, and a kind of grief where really the only place to point is God. Yes. So what were the differences for you, in the case of having someone to blame for your grief versus not really having that?

Sy Snarr 21:23

Well, the difference was, when Levi died, I did not want to ever go into that dark place again by being angry at God. And even though I prayed, begged, basically I begged, begged my heavenly father not to take him. But he did that I never felt that anger towards God again. That helped a lot. Although it was so devastating to lose him. I got to say goodbye to him. You know, I cared for him for 11 months. And I consider it one of the greatest blessings of my wife to be able to serve him. He was everything to me, you know, that was my wife is caring for him. And I just think heavenly father that I got to do that. And I got to say goodbye. Neither death was easy. There's not an easy way to lose a child. I'll tell you, Levi suffered, He suffered horrifically. But that didn't suffer. He didn't suffer. And I'm grateful he didn't because I was always afraid. What if he was scared? Was he scared? Or was he in pain? He was he was not any of that he died instantly. But I didn't just say goodbye. But I did not. I was very, very depressed after Levi died, because I felt like he was my reason for being there. You know, he'd been my wife for 11 months, that was my sole purpose was to care for him. And, you know, our daughter was married, our oldest son was married, which was great, because, you know, I love their spouses, and I had grandkids, which was, you know, a huge, huge blessing there. There's just everything to us. But leave I was my purpose in life at that time. And all of a sudden it was he was gone. And I didn't feel like I nobody needed me. He needed me but nobody else needed me. And I was very, very depressed. But I was never, I never blamed God. I never blamed him.

Morgan Jones Pearson 23:29

Speaking of that depression, you talk about in the letter about how after Levi passed away, said you had never understood how someone could want to die. But now you understand, having experienced grief and depression and devastation. And I wondered, how would you say that having experienced those things, not just once, but multiple times has given you empathy for others who struggle or may feel those feelings of despair.

Sy Snarr 24:04

I think at one time I just, I just thought, well, it's got to be in their head, you know, it is not in their head. grief and depression is a physical pain. It is. It is no different than having a horrible cancer or a horrible illness. It is that real. And people who think, oh, they should just get over you know, you can't you can't just get over it. And there were times where it literally hurt me to breathe. I had a friend who told me once that every breath I took I was moaning and I didn't even realize it. But it hurt that bad. And, you know everybody, there's nobody in this world that doesn't at some point or another have to deal with a horrific thing in their life or grief of losing a loved one or something happening. And it's real. And I just I think I hear all these horrible things that are happening and like all these mass shootings, and I immediately think of those parents and those precious kids that are getting shot. And I can't do anything for him personally. But what I do do is I pray that they will feel God's love and His arms around him because they're there. He's there with them. But when you're in that much pain, sometimes you just can't feel anything else. And it is so real. And I, I just ate for him I ate for people that are depressed and anguished and dealing with these horrible things. And I, like I said, the only thing I can do is, is pray for him. And I do I pray for him every night.

Morgan Jones Pearson 25:52

sigh I want to if it's okay with you. Now, I want to kind of shift to your experience with George specifically. And I wondered, as you have. So you mentioned earlier that you just thought George wasn't interested in having any kind of conversation and saying anything. But you've gotten to know George very well now. And I wonder what have you learned from him about remorse and restitution?

Sy Snarr 26:24

Well, that's, I know, I know how sorry. He is. You know, what impresses me now? I mean, I tried to see him at one point. Because I just thought surely he wants to say, sorry. He's got to be sorry, you know, and I was approached by this organization where the crime victims can go meet with perpetrator, and they were telling me how great it wasn't healing. I said, Oh, yeah, you know, I want to do that. Well, he didn't. And that's one of those big steps back when they told me he wasn't interested. I was so angry at him. I thought, he has no right to deny me anything. You know, he drives if I want to see him, he should have to sit there. So. And they even said, Well, wait, you're really angry about this? And I said, Yeah, I'm really angry. So that's one of those giant steps backwards that I took for a while, but I just thought he doesn't care. And out of the blue, I even remember thinking, I wonder if he ever just write a letter. But I said, No, he's not going to do it. But I envisioned in my mind, having these conversations with him, it's really quite weird, almost, because I and I also envisioned his mother a lot. Well, I thought about her a lot. I always thought about her, his mother and felt so bad for her. And I would think of my mind who just put my arms around her. And I thought, well, it's never gonna happen, you know, and then all of a sudden, here's this letter 22 years later, 22 years and, and my friend that told me about it, said I was scared to death to tell you because you're doing so much better. And I didn't want to upset you. And I spoke to her, I said, I have waited 22 years for this letter, because I knew that it was going to be an apology, or why else would he write? Right? I knew it had to be that but but I the the letter itself was so I thought very beautifully written. I love the fact that he took full responsibility and said, Please don't blame my family. You know, I wasn't raised that way. He was raised in an LDS home. And he took full responsibility. And he said, You know, it's, it took me a long time to realize what I'd done. But I just knew how sincere that letter was. And I wrote him back. And I told him that I had gone through his change, also. And I told him that to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, I said those words, you know, that I was able to forgive him too. And I know what people can people do change. People can change. I changed myself from that horrible, angry, ugly person that it was for so long to be having joy again, you know, feeling joy and happiness and love for everybody. And it's a wonderful thing. And I know that that's what he's done. I know that he is truly sorry, even though some people I read some comments on the podcast, and I would say 95% are very, very positive. But you know, there's those few. And I knew I knew we were gonna get blasted. Sure. I just I knew it. And you know that well, every prisoner writes stuff like that. And your your, your sundown your, you know, he'd be so disappointed in you. And I thought, well, they don't know Zach. He is so happy right now that this has happened.

Morgan Jones Pearson 29:49

So, in coming to know George as well as you have, what do you think took so long? Why do you think he didn't speak up in court? or write sooner?

Sy Snarr 30:02

Well, he was barely 19, less than a month of being 19 years old. So he was still just a kid really just a young kid. I think he was scared to death. He was new to Utah. He was he had lived in New York, but he was from or away. And I don't think you've trusted anybody he had been horrifically bullied. And you know, I'm not trying to and he doesn't. He says, that's no excuse. There's no excuse. Everything I would say said no, there's no excuse not nothing excuses what I did, you know, but he didn't believe that we could ever forgive him. He said that he's, he was so humbled by our forgiveness. He felt very undeserving of our forgiveness. Just recently, one of the letters he told me about an experience he had in prison that some another inmate had set him up to make it look like he had done something which he hadn't. And so he was put in maximum. And then they figured out that it wasn't him. That wasn't Georgia was this other guy. So they got Georgia out, and the other guy who were people, and George said, he felt he was so angry that this person, he said, I was so angry. And then he then he wrote, and you know what I thought about, I thought about you and Ron forgiving me. And he says, I can forgive anybody that really touched my heart, that he would say that. He feels very undeserving of it. But grateful. He's, he's very grateful. He said, Fine, he feels like he's been able to move on. And by the way, he wrote several letters, he just never had the said they weren't good enough. And he'd tear him up and throw them away until he finally wrote that when he said, I've got to just do it. But he didn't want to put it in the mail. He wanted to handle ever because he wanted to make sure that we would want it he didn't want to just, you know, have it show up and upset us. And he was very put a lot of thought into it. And he was very thoughtful and very concerned for us. He's actually a very, very nice man. Very decent man, he, he's a good person, he deserves a second chance. He just did a really horrible thing. The only thing he ever did wrong, it was huge, really huge.

Morgan Jones Pearson 32:21

Sigh You and your family you've gotten to know, not just George. And it wasn't just, you know, a couple of letters back and forth. This has continued on for how long now since you first initially came into condo 2019.

Sy Snarr 32:38

That's when I got first letter. Okay, so we write he calls now, every week if he's not in, in lockdown. Sometimes, if anything at all happens in the prison, even another unit, everybody's in lockdown. But he usually calls once a week, and I enjoy I look forward to those phone calls. And we still write back and forth. I love the letters. I've saved every one of his letters as a stack of them. He told me he saved every one of my letters to so.

Morgan Jones Pearson 33:10

And you also have gotten to know his family. Tell me a little bit about your interactions with them.

Sy Snarr 33:16

Well, I'll tell you, I've never known better people, more wonderful people in my life. I am so grateful to know that family and and I told myself I wouldn't know the MSL if sac hadn't been murdered by George, you know, and yet, I'm so grateful to know him. That's kind of like this weird circle thing like but I wouldn't know it. And yet they are so wonderful. We met his brother and his wife and three of his kids first. He George had said in a letter he said, you know, my family, for some reason thinks they want to meet you. But you don't have to just why don't you just tell him you're traveling or you're busy. And I wrote back and I says, Well, I actually would love to meet your family, you know, and I had actually been writing, just writing back and forth to his mother. I hadn't met her personally. But we've been writing also. And I told him that I'd love to meet his brother's family. So I sent him well know that he wrote back and he said, Well, they're coming to Utah at this date. And so I sent a letter right back and said, Here's my phone number. You haven't called me and he did call me. He said he would like to meet us and I said, we'll meet you anywhere. You can come to our home, you can, you know, go to our home in Mount Pleasant. You can. We'll come to they had a son at BYU. I said we can come to Provo, whatever. And he said, Well, I'd like to come to your home and I said, Well, you didn't bring your family. He said I'd like to bring my wife assess, okay. And I said, Well, that's great. I'd actually love to meet your whole family. And then he I think surprised him a little bit. But I meant it and so they said they were coming and I said come for dinner, you know we had dinner and I saw him pull up And I was just like, wow, I'm really going to meet his brother. You know, this is, this is huge. And I just kind of, you know, did some deep breathing and told myself that I opened that door. And here's these people as the most beautiful smiles, most beautiful family. And they came into the house, and I cannot even describe the spirit that was in my home that night. It was incredible. And, and I felt it, you know, I felt it. And I didn't want him to leave and and when they left, I said to Ron, my husband, I said, did you feel the spirit in a home tonight? He said I did. And I just thought he was the Savior. And then I thought, oh, my gosh, Zack was here. Zach was here. That's what I know he was. But it was it's most incredible. I, I wish I had that feeling in my home every day. It was that amazing. And it was because these people are amazing. And we keep in contact that they've been to our place a few times, we've actually gone to their home and visited them. I mean, it was Mother's Day yesterday, I got a really nice message from them. I love them. And we really consider them family. And I'm grateful to have people like them in my family, because they are such examples to me. Just incredible, incredible people.

Morgan Jones Pearson 36:25

Amazing, such a, my my heart just listening to you. So I feel so full. So thank you for sharing that. I think that your story. And you've you've reiterated this a couple of times that the reason that this was possible was through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. What would you say you've learned about the atonement over the last 30 years,

Sy Snarr 36:51

I have learned how powerful the Atonement is. And it's there for every one, every one of us, everyone. I have several times tried to comprehend what the Savior went through for us for me, you know, I'm putting this on me what my pain he has felt my pain, which to me was unbearable, at times, truly unbearable, let alone my sins, which you know, nobody's everybody's sins or we wouldn't be here, right? Some of us has bigger sins, so not as big but and I think he has felt that of me. But he has felt that for every single person on this earth. And I cannot comprehend what he went through. We went to Israel, Ronan a few years ago, and are there a gardener to save money and the to him and all these places, and I was so emotional. I was so emotional, just the reality of what he did for us, that He loved us that much that he would suffer like he did for us. And and I have such a testimony of the power of the atonement, how real it is. And I think we, in a way we use it every day. I do. And I'm just so grateful. I just feel like when you ask what I was, like me for sex death, I can honestly say, even though you know, we were married in the temple and all this, but I didn't. So like I, I can't say that I had a personal relationship. I didn't feel like I did with Heavenly Father or the Savior. But I feel like I do now. I feel like I know them. Because I've allowed myself to know them. And what a blessing that spin is, there's just a purpose in everything. And some of it's hard to understand. Someday I will probably not this life. But someday I will. And I had a friend who told me What's was after Levi died, too. And I was at my lowest point ever. And she said, you know, someday I really think you're gonna fall to your knees in gratitude for what you've been through. Because you'll see why. And I thought about that a lot. Would I ever really feel gratitude for losing my two younger sons? You know, but maybe I will. I don't know. I just realized there are no coincidences. I don't believe in coincidence. I think there's a reason everything happens and how white people are put into your lives. And I'm just grateful for all of it. At this point. I'm grateful for the love and support we've seen from so many people over the years. Strangers, family, friends, his family. You know, I'm just so grateful. I feel so blessed. And I'm so grateful for the Savior. So grateful to him every day of my life for what he did for me.

Morgan Jones Pearson 39:54

Well, I think that is so powerful and one of the reasons But I think that I was talking to a friend last week and she said that she feels like being a mother and giving birth is the closest that we come to experiencing any taste of what the Savior experience. And so I've been thinking a lot about that. And so then hearing, a mother talked about losing her sons. But expressing gratitude for the atonement, I think is particularly poignant. And and I'm grateful to you for sharing your your witness of that. I wondered, say on the letter, you, obviously tell your story. And I think you all did a great job of telling a story that is a story of faith in a way that it can touch a secular audience. But I wondered, Is there anything you would say here, knowing that you're speaking directly to an audience of people of faith that may not have been said in the letter?

Sy Snarr 41:00

You know, what I just said about my feelings about the atonement, my testimony of it, I was very careful in the letter not be too much that way because I knew that we'd be criticized. Right? I've experienced that just out with people. You know, a lot of people criticize the LDS faith and I didn't want it to be one that's criticized because it's a very tender tender and hard but yet beautiful thing that we've been through is a spiritual experience. And it took me a long time to realize that it was a spiritualist. But I just think I just know how much God loves all of this. And after that, died, leave, I really hit rock bottom. You know, he was just, they were so close I'll for my kids were very close and loved each other did things together, but leave, I was just 15. And he was after a while he tried so hard at first, just to be like Zack, but then he just hit rock bottom and did some things that were great and wasn't living the life that I would hope he would. But he was partying, and you know, just stuff like that. I thought, you know, did I ever not loving because of it? No. I loved all of my kids the same. But I think when Levi was in that very dark place, and doing all these things that he shouldn't have been, I think I loved him more fiercely. fiercely, I was. And I thought that I think that's how God feels about us. The ones that stray the ones that have problems, I think he in a way loves us more fiercely. Because they say our love is nothing compared to what God's love is for us, which is hard to comprehend too. Because soon as you hold that baby, you're gonna know what I'm talking about. The love you have for your children, you know, there's just, it's just a bit of heaven right there. The greatest blessing having these kids and I think and God loves us that much. And I think that's what I would say it's just my testimony of the Savior's love of God's love of the Atonement. And what just what a great package we've been given. That is there for us just for us, taking it and asking for it. It's always there for us.

Morgan Jones Pearson 43:40

I completely agree. So it has been such a blessing for me to have the chance to learn from you even more. My last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Sy Snarr 43:57

To be all in I think is just trusting in the LORD trusting what he has mapped out for us. Maybe it's a good thing. We don't know what's ahead of us. I think that is a good thing, but just trusting in Him and I think love. I think that's the center of our religion. I learned that from my husband. That's his main thing. He says the gospel was just love. You just love everybody. I think that's true. It's all in is loving people serving people, accepting people and eternal families. To me, that's what it's all about. That's why I'm all in.

Morgan Jones Pearson 44:34

Thank you so much. Sigh It has been it's been so great to talk with you and you are just you have such a light about you. So thank you for sharing that with me.

Sy Snarr 44:45

No, you're welcome. Thank you.

Morgan Jones Pearson 44:51

We are so grateful to Sy Snarr for joining us on today's episode. If you'd like to hear the full story of size experience which we didn't even scratch the surface of today. Be sure to listen to KSL's The Letter, which is available anywhere you listen to podcasts. Thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at 6 Studios for his help with this episode. And thank you for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai