Ally Isom: Making Space for Female Voices

Morgan Jones
In 2015, President Russell M. Nelson told the women of the Church, "We need your strength, your conversion, your conviction, your ability to lead, your wisdom and your voices. The kingdom of God is not and cannot be complete without women who make sacred covenants and then keep them, women who can speak with the power and authority of God!" So how can women better use their voices in their homes, workplaces, and in their wards and stakes? And how can they be encouraged to do so by those around them?

Ally Isom found her voice mattered early as an elementary school student officer and a high school policy debater. She went on to use that voice as a grassroots political worker, mother of four, PTA officer, city council person, Deputy Chief of Staff and spokesperson for Utah's governor, and then head of global branding for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These days, she's a grandmother and business executive at a nanotech firm and she recently spoke at BYU women's conference about why women should stand up and speak out.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Jones, and I am honored to have Ally Isom on the line with me today, Ally, welcome.

Ally Isom
Thanks, Morgan. I'm so thrilled to be here. So honored to be able to chat with you today.

Morgan Jones
Well, I told Ally this already, but I watched her women's conference address, and the funny thing, Ally, is I had no idea before I reached out to you and told you what I wanted to do for the topic that your topic for women's conference perfectly aligns with the conversation that I wanted to have today. So admittedly, I watched that talk, and have kind of framed my questions around that. So for those that are interested in watching the whole talk, you can check that out on women's conference.

But to start out, I wanted to ask you, you talk about how President Russell M. Nelson has encouraged women to share their impressions, insights and inspiration with others. And you talk about how this is a responsibility, and it's not just a prophet trying to make us feel good. I think that that was such a good point, because that's not the job of a prophet to pat us on the back or make us feel better about ourselves, but instead that he's telling us this is something that we need to do. And so I wondered for you, just to start things off, what message does it send to have a prophet who is asking this of us, and how can we take that from the top down?

Ally Isom
It's such a great question. And I–Morgan, I really hope people . . . it gives people pause that this came from the leader of our faith, for both men and women, that there's a responsibility for women to speak up. It's not just a duty, a convenience–"It would be so nice sisters, if you spoke up in Ward Council," he's really saying, "You have a covenant calling to stand for truth and to speak up." And I loved when he said, "Our strength and our conviction, our leadership, our wisdom, and our voice are needed."

So it wasn't just, "Share your experiences," or "Help the men in the Church better understand what it's like to be a woman, " it was, "You have something meaningful to contribute. Your strength, your conviction, your leadership, your wisdom–all of those things are important in the greater conversation, and we need you to be part of that movement of this Restoration in this modern day. Be part of that greater conversation we're having."

Morgan Jones
Absolutely. So in this talk, Ally, you kind of break down things that have been studied regarding women and their hesitancy to use their voices, and kind of some of the things that lend themselves to women feeling comfortable in spaces to share their voices, as well as what might be causing us to hang back. And I love–as we talk about these things, if there are any examples that you want to share, because I think that that can be helpful, I actually thought of a couple of my own that I might share–but first of all, what do you think typically causes women to be hesitant to speak up or speak out?

Ally Isom
I think the first thing that gets in our way is ourselves. That we have this little saboteur in our head that starts talking that says, "Who are you to speak up?" You know, "You don't, you don't really know anything. No one's going to listen to you. No one cares what you think," or, "You can't make a difference here." I think that's the biggest challenge we have is get through that big block in our head, and then after we do, other things hold us back.

Like sometimes the world isn't embracing our message right away, there are critics. There are people who don't want your message shared, and we have an aversion for conflict in our culture. And so sometimes we're a little reticent to say anything that's a little too bold or a little too edgy, and finding the right words that can explain something or a concept with grace and kindness, that can be really challenging without much practice.

So, sometimes we just have to experiment with the word choice. And sometimes the world will send back a message that it's not welcome–what you're sharing. And I think sometimes there are these stereotypes that get imposed on us, or we're afraid of being "that." We're afraid of being brash, or bossy or unladylike, and, and that comes from within and external. And, you know, there have been words used to describe me that are less than flattering, because somebody didn't want to hear what I had to say. And sometimes their response feeds into those female stereotypes and puts me in a box.

But I've come to understand, once I'm aware of that landscape, I can do something about it. I can put it in a framework, and I can say, look, there are these bigger cultural forces at play, and I can forgive them for they know not what they're saying. If I'm moved by the spirit, then I can move past that initial saboteur in my head and past that initial resistance in the greater landscape, and I can say, you know, "Get thee hence Satan, I'm here to make a point on God's behalf." And I feel very guided and inspired in that conversation. And when I, when I get grounded in that knowledge, then I can, I can overcome that hesitancy.

Morgan Jones
I love this so much, and already have so much from what you just said that I want to dig into. But before we get too far into this conversation, I wanted to ask you, it's clear in listening to you talk, Ally, that this is something that you're passionate about. And I just wondered, given your experience and your career. How did this topic become something that is so important to you?

Ally Isom
Oh, well, I think part of it is probably that I'm a little bit wired for it. I'm a firstborn and oldest daughter. And we tend to be pretty verbal and precocious as children. But, you know, beyond that, I think I was–my brain was wired for it. I was a debater in high school, I did policy debate and I learned to think about really big ideas and how to break those down into persuasive arguments or strategic outcomes.

And I learned in that arena that my gender mattered a lot less than the, you know, how good I was at articulating certain ideas and how persuasive I could be at helping an audience understand those ideas. But, you know, as you grow and you have life experiences–including marriage, or small children, or large children–you know, you start to realize, you've got something to say, and life has taught you something.

And, you know, I had a child who was a premature baby that I had to learn to advocate for in the NICU. I had another child who had significant health issues that I had to learn to navigate the healthcare system for. I had early experiences in the political arena, where I worked in grassroots, and I cared deeply about what affected my community and my greater state and nation and learn to talk about those things.

My experience in the governor's office was incredibly formative in helping me understand the importance of being in the public square, and how many voices are needed in the public square. I'm a big believer that the more people around the table, the more stakeholders engaged, the better the outcome. The more diversity in the room, the better the outcome. And that experience in the governor's office really cemented for me that all voices matter, and all voices need to be at the table.

And then I've had experiences behind closed doors in the governor's office and at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with people who have a great deal of power or influence, people who are trying to make the world a better place. And they need good information to receive the inspiration that they need to do their jobs well. And I learned to speak truth to power, and I really learned to rely on the spirit to prompt me for both the timing and the substance of what I might offer.

And there were times in my experiences with the Church when I was working on women's issues, LGBTQ issues, interfaith issues, race issues, and cultural sensitivity issues and I hate to even use the word "Issues" because it makes it sound like there's a problem there–I really saw it as an opportunity to create greater understanding of diverse perspectives, and you can't gain that understanding if people don't speak up. You need their voices in the room.

Morgan Jones
Absolutely. Well, first of all, from one oldest daughter to another, I can relate. So I'm glad that you said that. That actually makes me feel like maybe there's not something totally wrong with me. But the first, the first thing that I want to touch on from what you just said is, you mentioned women having a seat at the table, and in your women's conference talk you cite researchers who have found that women having a seat at the table does not necessarily equate to those women having a voice at the table. So why do you think that is? And kind of just to, kind of bring this into a Church context, how do you think we see that in a Church setting?

Ally Isom
Sometimes, we might be inclined to think that because we have one woman in the conversation, we know what all women think or feel. And that puts a lot of pressure on the shoulders of that one woman because she has to self-censor, and she wants to play her cards carefully and use her capital when it makes the most impact in the dialogue.

So, if she's the only woman in the room representing half of the population on this planet, if she were to ever speak 50% of the time, you'd just think she was obnoxious, and you couldn't wait to get her out of the room. So that one woman tries to be very careful. And the data indicate–the research indicates that we need more than one woman in the room to ensure that women are adequately heard. And this sort of magic threshold–although I don't think it's adequate, but it's the bottom line–you have to have at least 30% of the group that is female, if you want women to start speaking 30% of the time. And until you reach that threshold, women are going to speak less than the percentage of representation they provide.

So if they're one of 10, they're not going to speak 10% of the time, they're going to speak less than 10% of the time. So you get to that threshold of 30%, and culture takes time to change. I think I've seen in Ward units how fantastic it is when a bishop invites a Young Woman's presidency to the meeting with the bishopric. So that there are four women, including the counselors and the secretary, meeting with the bishopric. And you have a more of a balanced dialogue when there are men and women in the room together. And we're seeing that in the missionary experiences, our female missionaries are having–there's, there's been a cultural shift. I don't think we're all the way there, I think there's still some work to do. But I do think it's making a difference in outcomes, especially for our young women.

Morgan Jones
For sure, I wanted to see what your thoughts are about–and you kind of mentioned it, that there are people that are doing this well, and so we're not saying everybody throw out what you're doing–but I wondered for you, how you've seen men create a positive environment for women to share their voices?

Ally Isom
Oh, absolutely. I really appreciate when men are running a meeting or facilitating a dialogue, that they make an extra effort to be inclusive, that they intentionally ensure everyone's had a chance to speak. That if somebody isn't speaking up, particularly if it's a woman, that they're saying, "We didn't hear from you, could you please share your perspective?" And then after she does share, it's not just check a box, "Heard from the girl in the room.” “I listen to you. Let me ask questions about that. Or let me nod my head while you're speaking. Let me affirm the truth of what you just said. Let me validate the difference that it makes.” And not only does that help me as the woman feel much more willing and comfortable in that greater dialogue, it signals to all the other men in the room how important my ideas and suggestions might be, how valuable I am to that greater dialogue. And it makes all the difference when it is that man in that prime position who, who does that. There's something that shifts the experiences in the room for everybody when the man in charge intentionally does that. And it's just as important if that woman is facilitating, that she not commandeer a meeting, but that she models that inclusive, validating, engaging approach to dialogue. And it really is–“How are we counseling together?” Elder Ballard spoke on counseling together is excellent on that point.

Morgan Jones
That makes complete sense. I had the chance over the past few years, I've been released now, but I was in a Stake Relief Society presidency in the Young Single Adult stake in my area and had the opportunity to serve with a couple of stake presidents that I think model that really beautifully. And it does, it makes all the difference. It makes you feel like you can speak up and you can raise your hand and offer your opinion because your opinion is not just listened to and then, you know, on to the next thing, but they ask questions, and they follow up. In your talk Ally, you acknowledge men who have encouraged you to use your voice. Could you share any positive examples of that in your own life?

Ally Isom
Yes, I kind of giggled when you asked the question because I do remember the time on a family trip, my dad bribed me with a pie to not talk the whole time. Because I might have been a little chatty. But my dad really did encourage me to speak up, he didn't want me to be a passive participant in life. And so it really did start with that primary male role model in my life. And it grew into high school teachers and coaches who encouraged me and professors at the college level who saw something in me and encouraged me to participate and take risks and get engaged.

It includes managers who have overseen me who have intentionally given me challenging assignments and, and put me out there, you know. When you're the governor spokesperson, you know, that instills–not just terror, but a sense of confidence, too–that, okay, he trusts me. He trusts me to say the things that need to be said in a way that will be heard and understood. You know, when it was the governor, it was good news, when it was Ally it was usually bad news. So I would say my road was a little steep.

But, but it felt a sense of confidence in knowing that he did trust me in that role, and then, you know, so many great collaborators in my life, so many great partners in finding solutions on public square, who have sought me out and said to me, you know, "We want your voice in the room, because when you come into the room, it makes a difference in how we conduct ourselves and how we talk about issues." And, and, you know, women add a sense of, of healing and binding and weaving together that is intangible, but adds so much value to the discussion and that overall energy that comes across in collaborative teams.

Morgan Jones
Ally, outside of other people that have encouraged you to use your voice, are there other things that you feel like in your personal life have allowed you to find your voice and to find your message?

Ally Isom
Absolutely. It's been a process. Morgan, it's just been such a process, largely driven by my inner voice and paying attention to that. It starts with personal study. I'm a big believer that my scriptures, materials I read, things I listen to, they're all platforms for the spirit to communicate with me, to teach me, to help me understand. So if I'm reading a great book, sometimes that's a platform for the spirit to help cement ideas and concepts in my heart.

And I’ve spent a lot of time listening to other people and seeking role models that I think are really, are really effective in this arena. They may not even be people I always agree with, but I do look for other women whom I think are effective at communication, and I pay attention to their delivery, their method of presentation, even their mannerisms and their affect.

You know, I tend to be a very serious person often and sometimes that affect can feel threatening to, or even discouraging to people in the room because they'll think I'm disapproving, when really I'm like, "That's just my face at rest," "It's not–I don't mean to offend," and so I watch like other women and realize, you know, in those greater conversations, smiling and nodding while, you know, you might feel like it feels superficial, it actually shows you're engaged and you're validating the other people in the room. And then also just seizing the moment, you know.

When the, when the Spirit prompts me to speak, sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I don't . . . I don't want to–I don't want to say that, not now." But, you know, when you react when prompted, the spirit will teach you and others in the room. And in my talk I mention courage isn't the absence of fear, it's the faith to move forward, nonetheless. It's the fact that you just embrace your fear and step up when God taps you and says, "I need you to do something for me." You know, we've covenanted to go and do and stand in holy places and stand for truth. So, you know, we step up.

Morgan Jones
Absolutely. So Ally, in your talk you talked about–and first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. I loved in the talk, you talked about how our faith in God and our faith in ourselves are related because like you said, we are God's. We belong to Him, and the purpose of this life is to help us become like Him. How do you think that we can best increase our confidence?

Ally Isom
Oh, there's–there are five things that I talked about in, in my address. And one of them we just talked about, speaking from a place of identity and knowing our worth and our "Why." And the second one is, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This work isn't convenient, and there's not a lot of ease in it. And the, you know, I've been in lots of situations where it's like, okay, I'm starting to sweat, my heart is racing and I don't want to say this, and I don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. Because it's never going to be easy when, when it matters a lot.

The third one is focusing on the message God sent us to share and those needing to hear it. If it's, if it's about my errand on the Lord's behalf, then I can do it. I get all kinds of confidence and courage knowing God asked me to do this, and I will do anything. I put my career and my life on the altar long ago, and I will do whatever God asks me to do.

The fourth one is knowing the audience. If you know them, if you have walked a mile in their shoes or with them, if you know their heart and their fears, and, and what motivates them, you can meet them where they are in their understanding and speak to their hearts. The Spirit speaks to people according to their understanding, so we need to know them well enough to know what they understand and meet them there and help guide them through, you know, whatever the discussion or, or dialogue needs to be. And then the fifth point is just to adopt a growth mindset. Get used to falling down and picking yourself back up again, and just keep trying, because the more often we speak up, the better we'll get at it.

Morgan Jones
Ally, I want to dig into a few of those things, if it's okay with you. The first one, I think that–I love what you said about needing to focus on our message and those that are hearing it or need to hear it, but I feel like one challenge that sometimes women have–and I think especially now, in the day of Instagram and social media–is we feel like we need to be sharing something, but I think some women struggle to figure out like, what is our message? What is the message that God wants me to share? How do you think that we find our message?

Ally Isom
Wow. It's so deeply personal if it's, if it's a personal message. If it's in a sphere where you have a calling, or a career, or even a public duty or responsibility, finding the right message is often about–how do we get to the right solutions? And you break that down and God will guide you. But if this is about, how do I just use my regular old voice as me, in a place of influence or public dialogue? I always go back to that point I made about studying and finding a platform for the spirit.

Sometimes that's quiet time or sacred space. I've learned over time–and it's a lot easier now as a grandma and with my children out of the nest–I can find quiet time and space. Sacred space to contemplate and really listen for God's guidance. But that didn't mean I wasn't privy to that when I'm raising my children and life is chaotic and I'm in survival mode and surviving on four and a half hours of sleep every night. You know, I felt like the spirit guided me then too.

And I have a disorder when it comes to post-it's, because they are all over my house, because when the Spirit prompts me, I don't want to forget it, and if I don't write it down, I'll forget it. So I write it on a post-it or I have dry erase markers in my bathroom. And if you could see my bathroom mirror right now, as I hear things as I'm listening to things, as I'm getting ready in the mornings, and certain concepts strike me, I write them on my mirror. I have a mirror that covers almost the whole wall. And so it like right now there's a couple of to-do list items on there, there's a reminder to pick something up, and then I have like key concepts in this left hand section of my mirror about, you know, "The objective is to be fully present," or "We overcome racism by being better humans to other humans," you know, quotes I hear that I go, "Oh, I love that."

So I just, I pay attention to the Spirit. And when it prompts me, I try to just jot it down, and then I take all those post-it notes and I gather them up and I try to digest them into a framework that can be meaningful for me because I know God never stops to guide me. I just wish he'd quit giving me counsel in the shower or when I'm like–

[Laughter]

Ally Isom
If I could figure that out. Maybe I could like capture another 50% of the revelation that comes but, you know, we all have growth opportunities.

Morgan Jones
For sure. Well, I think that that is the first time that somebody has admitted to having a disorder with post-it notes on this podcast, but I think you're right. And I think it's interesting. Sometimes I think we just want Heavenly Father to just hand us that message on like a silver platter, but I love that you talk about, you know, gathering and just the way that we would gather to teach a lesson or whatever it is, that even our personal message in our own lives comes as a result of gathering and thinking through and processing what that message is.

Another thing that I love is when you talk about focusing on others rather than yourself and your own fear. I think that this is huge and it's something that has helped me with this podcast, because a lot of times I feel like I'm talking to people like yourself, where I think, "I am not qualified to talk to this person or to ask them questions," but the thing that I always think about is, I am the person that gets to do this, and there are people that need to hear the things that this person has to offer, and so I think about those people. If those people could sit in this space and ask Ally Isom questions, what questions would they want to ask?

Or, I think about, you know, how can I make the guest feel the most comfortable? Because a lot of times I can tell, because we interview people that are not used to being interviewed a lot, and sometimes they seem a little bit nervous or apprehensive, and how can I make that person feel comfortable? But I wondered for you, what are some easy ways that you've found to focus on others, rather than yourself in these spaces of being able to share a message?

Ally Isom
You, you make a great point, Morgan, about we have to stop worrying about ourselves and focus on our sisters and our brothers and what are their needs. And for me, I gain a keener sense of my calling and a greater affinity for things of the Spirit when I ask lots of questions. So I ask the person that I'm trying to understand, or I try to find an audience, a representative of that audience, or I study that audience, but I ask that person lots and lots of questions.

And then I repeat back to them what I think I've heard, and then I say, "Tell me more." And it feels phony sometimes just saying, "Tell me more," like I'm Barbara Walters or something, but no, really, that little phrase, "Tell me more," invites somebody to share what's in their heart.

And I also love the question, "What am I not asking you, you wish I would ask? What am I missing in my yearning to understand you?" And in my strategic communication roles, we often think about a persona, to represent our target audience. We put a face and a personality and lived experiences to that target audience, to better reach their hearts. And I'm a big believer in, know your audience and you can reach their heart. And I'm also a bit of a mama bear when it comes to other people, and so when I start to understand them as my motivation for whatever solutions I'm pursuing, it gives me all kinds of courage to speak up. Because I want to advocate for them the way I feel the Savior would advocate for me. That He would make sure others understand me and, and would see me for who I truly am and know the goodness of my heart, and know that I'm trying to be the best human I can be. And I know that about my audience, I just need to get into their head a little bit and see the world through their eyes, and then it gives me all kinds of confidence in my message.

Morgan Jones
I could not agree more. And I love that you talk a lot about audiences, because it's something that I have always been really passionate about. I love–it's one reason that I love working where I work, because I think LDS Living–we know exactly who we're talking to. And when you know who you're talking to, then you know what to say. Whereas a lot of times I think in, especially career situations, job situations, the audience can be a little bit ambiguous and hard to pin down. And so I have always appreciated the chance to dig into, what is an audience looking for? What are they hoping to gain from the content that we're putting out there?

And maybe my favorite thought in your entire address was the idea that the spirit can tell us a lot about our audience and you said, "The Spirit knows your audience. The Spirit knows what the audience needs–what they're seeking." And so I wondered like, what does that knowledge, what does that look like for you, when you're preparing a talk, how do you rely on that knowledge that the Spirit knows your audience and can tell you a lot about how to prepare to deliver a message to them?

Ally Isom
I think of it as this iterative process. As I'm praying about the content, and I'm praying about the audience, and I write something, then I pray about what I've written. And I say, "Is that right?" And then I watch the spirit guide me, "Okay, that adverb might feel judgmental, alter it to something else," or "Pose that as a question, to invite them to be part of a dialogue instead of this blanket, declarative statement." And I feel the Spirit's guidance very much in that process.

Now, let me be clear about this, like, I'm no savant when it comes to things of the Spirit. Sometimes, sometimes talks or messages I'm sharing, they just take a lot of time to prepare. And we have to be super, super patient with that process, and understand that the Spirit is going to work with us.

Morgan Jones  
I think that that is spot on. And I think it's, you know, not only–it's giving yourself grace to have that time, and also giving that grace to other people. Ally, as you went through this, that time after, you know, you were at the Church, how long were you working for the Church?

Ally Isom  
I worked for the church for six years.

Morgan Jones 
Okay. How do you feel like you saw growth in that area? And how do you feel like you personally have over time found your voice and your ability to use your voice, especially in that space, and maybe where are there still areas for growth?

Ally Isom  
It's a really complicated question, and I don't know how long the program is, but I'm pretty sure we could talk for a couple of hours about it. Um, let me just preface it with, I loved my role at the Church, and because of the spirit and God's guidance, it's some of the best work of my career that no one will ever see publicly, because it was underpinning frameworks for a lot of other work. But I know that God entrusted me with that portfolio–different portfolios, actually, because I was willing to listen to the Spirit.

And not that, I mean, everyone there is there with the best of intent, but I came to understand that it's about the process more than the outcomes, often. That we're building a change, and we're moving the Restoration forward by having these ongoing conversations. And taking that big picture view helped me be really patient with the need for deeper understanding and growth. And I felt really fortunate to be entrusted by God with that opportunity. I also think there were times when I was given an opportunity to give voice for particular issues where it felt like a sacred stewardship. And the words weren't mine. I honestly felt like I was being . . . it was being told exactly what words to share that would help my audience understand the impact for other audiences, meaning members of our faith, and members not of our faith, truly.

There was one very public appearance that I did on behalf of the Church that was fraught with risk and was complicated and thorny, and very uncomfortable for me. And in that public appearance, there were times when I felt the spirit very clearly guide me in what I should say. And it just came out, and I was at peace, and I felt calm.

There are other times when I was asked a question, and suddenly, nothing was there. And I felt like abandoned and you know, like, semi naked in front of this audience, like I don't, I don't know what to say, I'm just gonna do the best I can do on this one. And as I prayed about that afterward, and I was like, "Okay, what was I doing wrong?" Or, you know, like, "Okay, spirit, where did you go? When I needed you in those couple of moments, like what happened on those questions?" And I was very clearly taught, "It was not yours to say, it was not your stewardship." And I realized that there are some things that are very clearly mine to say, and there are others that need to come from other voices. And I need to value those other voices. I don't need to feel like I have all the answers. I don't feel like I have to have all the solutions at my fingertips, but I do know and trust the one who does, and the Spirit and God will work with everyone in the larger dialogue to ensure whatever messages need to be shared, will be shared.

Morgan Jones  
That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Ally, I just have one last question for you before we get to the final question, and that is, what have you learned about God's desire for women to use their voices specifically, what do you think–why do you think, you know, when President Nelson says these things about the need for women's voices, why do you think that that is something that God is communicating to His prophet? And why do you think it matters in the long run?

Ally Isom  
I think it is a critical issue for our day. It's a critical dynamic for our day that God's daughters engage. Because we can say things others cannot say with credibility and power and authority others do not have. And our covenants provide us that power and authority. It's an idea that I pray every covenant woman understands that she's a woman of power and a woman of authority, that fear has no place in her and that women are entitled to–and will receive, and can count on–revelation, and vision, and inspiration and leadership in this day, to make a difference in the world for all of God's children. Women are healers and weavers, and we have a world that is divided, polarized in in ways it's never been before. And people are hurting, they're wounded, and they need us, right now. And they need our voices. And I think that's what God's daughters can provide.

Morgan Jones  
Thank you so much, Ally. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ally Isom  
I love this question, because it's all about Jesus, isn't it? It's about his gospel in these days. You know, we call it the "Restored gospel," I find it beautiful that it's His gospel that restores us to our primal identity, to who we are eternally, but it also restores us when we are wounded or falling short. And I love that in this day, the Restoration is ongoing, that things may change. You know, I'm not convinced that the Church is in its final state, but the one thing that doesn't change is that we're all committed to our journey and following Jesus Christ in seeking His light.

Morgan Jones 
Thank you so much, Ally. It has been a blessing for me to be able to learn from you and I so appreciate your time.

Ally Isom  
Likewise, Morgan, thank you so very much. It's been a great time with you as well. Means a lot.

Morgan Jones  
We are so grateful to Ally Isom for joining us on today's episode. We are also grateful, as always, to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six studios for his help with this episode. And we thank you so much for spending your very valuable time with us. We'll be with you again next week.