Gerald Lund: Signs of the Second Coming

Morgan Jones: Elder Gerald Lund has written some of the most beloved Latter-day Saint books of all time. His first book, The Coming of the Lord, discussed the topic of the second coming and he began writing it nearly 50 years ago. It was published in 1971, but Elder Lund is currently working on a rewrite of the book. Today we are so excited to talk with elder Lund about the topic of the Second Coming.

Elder Gerald N. Lund served for 35 years in the church educational system. He also served as a member of the Second Quorum of the Seventy from 2002 to 2008. He is the bestselling author of both fiction and non-fiction and is best known for his historical novels which include: The Work and the Glory series, Fire of the Covenant, the Kingdom and the Crown series and The Undaunted.

He and his late wife, Lynn, are the parents of seven children.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we discuss what it means to be 'all in' the Gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Jones and I'm excited to be here today with Elder Gerald Lund.

Elder Lund, thanks for being here with us.

Elder Gerald Lund: It's my pleasure. Looking forward to it.

MJ: Well I am so excited about this. You originally wrote your first book about the Second Coming nearly 50 years ago, is that right?

GL: Yes. And in fact, I started it just 50 years ago.

MJ: Wow that's amazing. Well, we are excited to kind of pick your brain about this topic. I think that it's something that people are really interested in. And actually, as I prepared for this interview I put a question out on Twitter and asked people what questions they have about the Second Coming and the questions just kind of flooded in. So we're excited to kind of try to tackle some of those today.

GL: Well there's a lot of interest in this topic right now. I hear it all the time.

MJ: So you told me when we talked prior to this interview that you've presented many times on the topic of the Second Coming and done some firesides and things like that and you said that you typically get three questions. Can you share with us what those questions are and then we're gonna try to kind of dive a little bit deeper into that.

GL: Okay. It occurred to me in one fireside to ask this question: If you had the opportunity for a personal interview with the Savior and he said, "I will allow you to answer or to ask one question about the Second Coming," what would it be? And immediately hands come up in the group, and the first one was of course, when? When are you coming? That's always number one. So I then say well, so you know your friend is gonna ask him that question, so you ask her and get the answer. So what would be your next question? And that is, so what's going to happen? What's it gonna be like? As one person put it, how bad is it going to be?

MJ: So a very optimistic outlook

GL: Yeah right. And then the third is so, I love how one teenager put it, he says, how good do I have to be to make it through? I turned around and said, "You know, the way you're asking is how bad can I get by?" So those are the three. How soon, what's it gonna be like, and how do I get ready?

MJ: Interesting. So today our plan is to kind of dig a little bit deeper and address those questions as well as some others that came to us through Twitter. So my first question for you is, what has to happen before the Second Coming can happen?

GL: Well it's not so much what has to happen as what is going to happen. I mean the negative side, which is pretty grim in many ways.

MJ: I started reading your book, The Coming of the Lord, and I was like "wow this is a lot worse than I anticipated. I'm not ready."

GL: It's some pretty grim stuff. But that's foreseen in prophecy because that's the choices people are making. It's not something God's programmed in. What he has programmed in is the solution, the other side, the good side.

MJ: Ok, and so what does, kind of, can you give us a little taste of what the bad side and what the good side will look like?

GL: Well when Elijah came to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland temple he said, "and by this my coming you'll know that the great and dreadful day is near." And that's the dual scenario that the scriptures give, part of it is great, part of it is pretty dreadful. And so you've got all kinds of things in both sides.

MJ: So we're going to talk a little bit about some of those things. One question that came up on Twitter that I had never heard of, is this thing about rainbows. So there was a quote by Joseph Fielding Smith where he talks about bows and I wondered is there truth to this thought that rainbows will serve as a sign of the Second Coming or the lack thereof?

GL: Actually, though it sounds weird, the answer is yes. Joseph Fielding Smith talked a lot about it, but the original statement came from Joseph Smith. I'll read you one of them.

He says, "I have asked of the Lord concerning His coming; and while asking the Lord, He gave me a sign and said, 'In the days of Noah I said a bow in the heavens," meaning the rainbow, "as a sign and token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come. But there should be seedtime and harvest during that year: but whenever you see the bow withdrawn, it shall be a token that there should be famine, pestilence, and great distress among the nations and that the coming of the Messiah is not far distant.'"

And what we're not sure is in another he says the same thing in another place. But he just says "if you watch the rainbow," he doesn't talk about it being withdrawn. What does that mean? Do we actually see it jerked away? Do we just not look? But for Noah, the rainbow was a sign of the Lord's covenant that he would never again cause the Earth to be flooded. So for some reason, he's never given any further explanation. It seems to be that at some point the rainbow will be a signal of coming distress. So I watch rainbows all the time.

MJ: I am now going to pay a lot more attention when I see rainbows. I was thinking, I was like "when's the last time I saw a rainbow?" We'll now like keep rainbow journals keep track of them. I'm just kidding I'm not actually going to do that. OK. Next question is will there be a physical gathering in Missouri, and how does Adam-ondi-Ahmen relate to that?

GL: The answer is yes. Actually, there'll be a physical gathering in both Jerusalems. As you know Jackson County is the site of the New Jerusalem, Land of Zion. So in the gathering of Israel that President Nelson keeps talking so much about, you'll see people from all twelve tribes. Some will go back to old Jerusalem, some will come to the New Jerusalem. As part of that, there'll be a temple built in Jackson County. The savior will visit there, I'm guessing at the dedication. There's a prophecy by Lorenzo Snow that people who are there will actually have the privilege of inviting him into their homes as he was in days before. How would you like that, to have your husband say, "Hey honey guess who's coming for dinner tonight?"

So, and we're not sure on the chronology but somewhere in there takes place, what is both could be called a great priesthood conference and also a great sacrament meeting. And that's where Adam will come back as prophesied in Daniel. And anyone who's held priesthood keys will come and give an account of their stewardship to Adam. And then, Christ appears and Adam turns that stewardship over to Christ and he is, there crowned as King of the world. And that happens at the place called Adam-ondi-Ahmen which is in northern Missouri.

MJ: Right. OK. So what you're telling me is when they announce that the temple is going to be built in Jackson County, we all need to make plans to attend the dedication?

GL: That would be nice and a pretty important one.

MJ: Absolutely. Another thing that people seem to be curious about, and this is something that I've wondered about as well, is what role the law of consecration will play in all of this. Obviously, we're not living that law right now, but can you also in providing this answer, for those listening that might not be super familiar with the law of consecration, explain what that is?

GL: Right. Actually, there's two parts of the law of consecration. One is the doctrine and we make a covenant to keep the law consecration in the temple, which just basically means building the Kingdom of God is a high priority for us. But when Joseph was here and they moved to Zion, also in Kirtland, they began actual, what would we would call a financial system, that was called the Law of Consecration and stewardship. And the concept is that everything we own, whether we got it through our own efforts or not, actually belongs to God and all we are are stewards or takers as it were. And with that attitude, the law was that you got whatever your family needed. If you had 12 kids you needed a lot more, if you didn't have any kids. And then anything that became surplus to your needs was put into the common pot, and that went to take care of the poor. I would assume they never got to that point in a city, but where you would do what a city does you know, buy parks and pave roads. So it was really a wonderful financial system.

MJ: Right.

GL: Same thing was practiced right after Christ's resurrection for a short time and also in the Book of Mormon, it says they had all things in common. That's the Law of Consecration.

MJ: OK. And so what role will that play in advance of the Second Coming or when can we expect that to come into place?

GL: Again, many of the prophecies don't lay out a lot of detail. It definitely will be going on in New Jerusalem, whether it will be instituted in the church before that, it doesn't say. But it is a very efficient financial system. I did some figures once with a seminary class, just saw how much they, you know, and you could really raise everyone's standard of living to very comfortable. And no one would be poor and no one would be hungry, homeless. It's really quite remarkable.

MJ: Yeah sounds like something that is definitely a positive thing.

GL: Absolutely. Very very positive. But huge, I mean imagine, so you've got somebody that owns his own business, very successful. Maybe he's worth 300 million dollars. And he says, "For my family, I need one hundred thousand dollars, the rest is yours." It's going to take a pretty faithful person to do that.

MJ: Absolutely. That's kind of wild to think about. Elder Lund, what do we know about the structure of life, or what life will be like during the millennium?

GL: Well, Morgan that's, it's been my observation that a lot of people have a misconception. A lot of people think the only ones living in the millennium will be resurrected beings, and that's not true. We have some quotes that indicate that our ability to interact with resurrected beings may be enhanced over what it is here, particularly in doing temple work for those who didn't get it done. But it'll be mortal people and they will obviously, all of the wicked will have been destroyed with the judgments on the land by then. And so you'll have the things that we read about in the scriptures, no sorrow, children will grow up to be the age of a tree. I picked out a redwood for myself, actually. And the peace even symbolized by the fact that even the animals will not be fighting and vicious with each other. How literal and how metaphorical that is we can't tell. But it will be the ultimate social society and order. And so you think of that no crime, no worry about your children walking to school. It will be, that is one of the great things about what's coming.

MJ: I feel like in the world today there's so many things that are scary and so we look at these things about the Second Coming that are scary. But there's also so much to look forward to in that millennial day.

GL: Especially young people. I don't know how many times I've heard teenagers and young adults say "Oh I hope I die before that." And the more I studied, the more I say "Oh I hope I live long enough." And here's something that we often forget about, I asked a class I taught recently and this class was probably 50 percent of the people were 50 or older. So I said to them, Now be honest and raise your hand if you think you will still be alive when Christ comes. And that was a very awkward question for them. But just maybe 5 percent does finally raise their hand, and it was the younger ones. And I then said, "Now remember, I'm not asking if your body will still be alive. I'm asking if you will still be alive." We will all still be alive at the Second Coming because you don't think they're preparing for the second coming on the other side of the veil? Because they'll remember when Christ comes, all of those righteous who have died or are in the grave will be caught up and resurrected, and all of the faithful and righteous who are mortal will be caught up into heaven in what the protestants call the "Rapture." So that's a pretty great day too.

MJ: Definitely. It's a lot to take in. What will our state of being be like during that? What do you imagine is like the day-to-day? I know one thing that some people responded saying, in answer to my question was like, "Will we all just be doing temple work all day long?" Is that something that we should be excited about? Will we want to do temple work all day long? What does that look like?

GL: Well again, we don't have a lot of detail, but there's no question that temple work will be a major thing. Melvin J Ballard said one of the major things that will happen during the millennium is that people who died without being married who, I'll call it a courtship, have a courtship in the spirit world, somewhere they've got to have their marriage performed for eternity. And so that will be going on, but in many cases, I think people will be going about their work. I think there will be farming and industry. I think you'll have schoolteachers because we're going to have to educate our children. It's going to be a very much of what we think of as a good life here, only several ratchets up from that, with none of the negatives.

MJ: And I'm curious because we'll have experienced a lot of negative right before this. So I imagine the contrast will be so stark. One thing that I read in the Coming of the Lord, is where you talked about how people in the days leading up to the Second Coming won't have vocations, is that right?

GL: Well there's, I call it the implementation of social disorder. And several places in the Doctrine and Covenants indicates that'll probably happen in the United States. The kind of thing and I'm not saying exactly the same, but a good example of the collapse of social disorders what's happening in the Middle East, Syria and the ISIS and Taliban. I mean just total collapse of any order and you now have 60 million refugees in the world are fleeing as fast as they can to get away from that. And in the Doctrine and Covenants, it says people will flee to Zion because that's the only place they will find safety and refuge. And we're not talking about necessarily members of the church only.

MJ: Right. So how will people know where that is, do you think?

GL: In the Doctrine and Covenants we're told that the keys of the gathering of Israel were given to Joseph Smith and that's been passed down to each president of the Church and to the Twelve. And so if things get particularly terrible I think you'll see happen for regular population, what we see happen now sometimes as missionaries. My son was in Venezuela and they said, "Get out," and we've seen them evacuated from places where it's no longer safe. And so I think, right now, the gathering is to the stakes of Zion because those too are said they will be a place of refuge and safety and peace. But there may come a time when the First Presidency says, "It's not safe where you are anymore, come come to somewhere else." And at some point, they will say let's go to Zion. Not everybody, I mean we're not just going to turn around and walk away from Salt Lake City. What would Deseret Book do?

MJ: What would Deseret Book do? It's a very important question. OK. So what have you learned about the Second Coming in all that you've researched and read, and you've said that you've learned even more since you wrote that book, "The Coming of the Lord," nearly 50 years ago. And what have you learned about the Second Coming that might scare some people? And will the righteous have reason to fear in that day?

GL: Okay that's a really good question, and let me answer it in a couple of ways. If you go back to the dual scenario, there's the dreadful and the and the great. So in the dreadful, there are really tremendously horrific, I mean there is one place in the Doctrine and Covenants that if you think about it, it will actually turn your stomach. It is so graphic as he describes what seems to be the end of the battle of Armageddon, where the death count is so high it takes Israel seven months just to bury the dead. I mean these are horrific, frightening things. But the Lord, at the same time, many many places in the book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants says, "I will preserve my people," "my people need not fear," if we are faithful in keeping the covenant. The challenge becomes-- that kind of spiritual preparation doesn't happen overnight. You know somebody sees, let's say a social collapse happens in the United States, and all of the sudden you think, "you know what, maybe it's time I get back to church and repent." It may be too late because that's how the Lord prepares us spiritually and then sometimes he gives you a warning, "This is time to go," or, "Don't do that," or whatever it is.

So yeah, there are a lot of things to be frightened about. When you look at what happens in the wicked, there's a lot of frightening things now. But the Lord's watching over his people, and if we keep the Covenant then his promises are not-- that doesn't mean we'll never lose anyone you know. But as a people, we'll be protected and guided and shown what to do.

MJ: One thought that I had as you were just talking is, I think you know like you said something will happen and someone will think oh well maybe it's getting close, maybe it's time for me to go back to church. But I think actually, a lot of the time, it's things that are turning people away from the church that then those things are the things that are leading up to the Second Coming. Do you think that's true?

GL: Yeah. If we, who are the covenant people, whether it's in our age of which we call the LDS people or in former ages whether it was Judah or Ephraim or whatever they call them, the house of Israel is really just covenant people and the Lord has said that several times it doesn't matter what your bloodline is it's what your spiritual line is. And that's the readiness. And if you think of the "Parable of the Ten Virgins," light in their lamps, the oil in their lamps represents the spirit. And what is President Nelson telling us over and over? You've got to get the spirit in your life because you know right now a lot of the young people view, not just in the church but in all of Christianity, a lot of young people view Christ as the ever-loving heavenly father. C.S. Lewis called him the grandfather in heaven. He's just there to make sure we have a good time and if we do some wrong he may slap us on the wrist. But when we're in the middle of this crisis this political, social crisis and we are so burned out to the spiritual things because of the way we've been living or the choices we've made, then we're not going to. You don't get that over day or overnight and you think of the ten virgins the five went out to buy oil and when they came back they found the door shut. And remember this is the savior telling this and remember what he said to them? I never knew you and you never knew me so, sorry. I mean you'd think "Oh he's Jesus and he loves us. Yeah, I'm glad you're starting to repent. Come on in." No. the door's shut and that's the sobering thing. But again I when I think of what's coming, I'm filled with hope and things and then no more anxiety for me. I just look forward to what's happening is exciting right now, especially with President Nelson.

MJ: Absolutely. So are you, you said you're hoping to still be here to see it.

GL: Well I'd love to see it but I will see it. It doesn't matter whether I'm on that side of the veil or this side.

MJ: Right.

GL: And we know that the other people, like my wife, I just, we feel her presence in our family all the time. We've got a granddaughter that had been wondering what to do, and she felt very strongly that she got help from her grandmother.

MJ: That's sweet. My grandma passed away just a few years ago and I have felt really unusually close to her in the past few years so I am grateful for that.

What happens, Elder Lund, to the people who are not believers in that Millennial day or in the Second Coming as we head into that Millennium?

GL: Good question. We tend to think of people we tend to group them in the bad and good or wicked and righteous. But you got a whole group of people in the center that are just good people even though they may not be particularly religious. And so you've got a whole group in society that when this social collapse, let's take that as an example, or war or whatever it happens to be, when that happens they're going to say, "I don't want to be part of that. I don't want my family in that. And have you heard about those Latter-day Saints in Missouri? They've got order. They got Law. They got education, they got peace." And I can't picture us putting up a fence saying "Not Welcome." And it's not based on you have to join the church. In the Old Testament Book of Zacharias, he talks about people coming from all over the world to worship in Jerusalem. Not to become the House of Israel but just to be grateful that they're still alive, I'm guessing.

MJ: It's kind of like that-- maybe we'll just have the same sign that we have on our church buildings, "Visitors Welcome."

GL: Yeah I think so.

MJ: What will be the opportunity in that time period for growth and learning?

GL: Well, several of the prophets have talked about life in Zion. They talk about technology like we've never seen. In fact, a while ago I ran across an interesting quote by David O. McKay. This was back in the late 30s and he was talking about Zion, that they'll be the top in architecture, they'll be the top in art, music, in learning, in technology. And he says in fact, someday I think we may even see people carrying around little telephones in their shirt pockets so they can communicate with one another. That's in the 30s.

MJ: That's amazing. I think I actually have that exact quote because I found it in "The Coming of the Lord." OK. So the quote that you're referring to, 1935, President David O. McKay said that, on the topic of Zion, "improve the means of communications until, with radio in our pockets, we may communicate with friends and loved ones from any point, at any given moment." Sound familiar? I just pulled that up on my phone radio.

GL: And that's one of the exciting things when you're saying what's happened since I started writing it. Many, a lot of the things I wrote as prophecies back when I wrote that book, are now history.

MJ: That's crazy.

GL: And one of the things that was very common back then is people would say do you think we will ever see missionaries go to Russia? And the answer typical was not until the millennium. Now, look at us. We are building a temple in Russia. I mean just so many things like that. I've lived long enough to watch those changes. It is an exciting time to live.

MJ: Yeah. To you just like check boxes off your list? like there it is!

GL: I'm going to point some of those out that we are moving down that line closer and closer and you know, some people it just feels like well I mean they've been waiting for the Second Coming for ten or two thousand years, but someday it will happen. I don't think we're just two or three years away. But I think our children and grandchildren seeing some of these things that are prophesied are very, well we're already seeing some.

MJ: Right. It reminds me of, I'm reading in the Book of Mormon in Third Nephi and you know there's the part where Nephi is like all right, can you go ahead and come? Like you know, they're being persecuted in these things. But then he actually did come and the same thing is gonna happen for us.

GL: Yes, very next day. You know someday that'll be tomorrow.

MJ: Yeah. OK. What, Elder Lund, do we have to look forward to in that day?

GL: Well let me just run through quickly a list of the great things: Return to Jackson County, building a temple, having the privilege of maybe seeing Christ at the dedication, attending and taking the sacrament with Nephi, Mormon, Adam, Eve, they'll all be there. Well, I'm not sure if we get to see them. Watching the world finally get rid of all of its wickedness. Many years ago I was in a class and one of our kids said, well we were talking about Zion and he said to the professor, "I believe all those prophecies but how do we get from where we are now to where you're saying everyone's righteous and everything." And I probably shouldn't say, this but it was a classic cancer. The professor said well that's easy to understand. Number one, the Lord destroys all the wicked or he lets them destroy themselves. Number two, he scares the hell out of the righteous. And that, because I thought about it, that happens as we look around we're sensing it, I'm hearing it from people all the time. Look at what's happening in the world. Maybe it's time I get really serious about where I am spiritually. And so they start to repent. And that's what brings that about.

MJ: I love that. Literally scaring. Will deep knowledge of the Second Coming, obviously this is something that you're super fascinated by and have studied to a great extent. But, will our knowledge of the Second Coming play any role in our salvation? Like should we be studying a ton about this?

GL: Absolutely. Number one it's our future. Whether you die or not it's your future. Number two and this just hit me now that I'm starting on the rewrite, that if you look at how much time in the scriptures spend on certain areas, obviously what we call the plan of salvation or the plan of happiness which would include all the gospel you know, Temple Ordinances, prayer, fasting repentance, going to church all of that is the number one topic found in the Scriptures. So I don't have an actual count of scriptural passages but I've been going through them a lot right now and I think second only to the plan of salvation and the atoning sacrifice, is the last days, and the coming of Christ and the gathering of Israel is the second most important topic in the Scriptures.

MJ: So fairly important. One question that I thought was interesting that came over through Twitter. Somebody said, "Why is the second coming necessary? Why couldn't Christ just have come the first time and then us live in this kind of state, why is this necessary?

GL: Well, first of all, you got to go back to the plan. And second of all, the world just assumes our life will keep right on going forever and the world, you know, will keep improving or falling apart or whatever. But we know that the plan is God has a certain number of people that he can run through our earth and then he does it somewhere else too.

But right now, our world is going downhill. And we saw it with the Kingdom of Israel, we saw with the Kingdom of Judah, we saw with the Jews in Jerusalem, we saw it with the Nephites, we saw with the Jaredites. We've seen five places where the covenant people turn away from God and eventually are just totally destroyed. So if the Lord doesn't do something then will we never have righteousness? And so the Second Coming is how He finally lets the wicked prove themselves worthy of destruction and the righteous, worthy to live in the millennium or in the Spirit World. So yeah, I think it's very important. It's not just why did he wait. Because he had a lot of people, think how many people have been born, He's just running all of his children through this plan. That takes time.

MJ: Yeah. A question just came to my mind. I hope you don't mind if I slip it in here. But why is it a blessing, why is it part of his plan for us all to be run through it in that way?

GL: I think many of us, even in the church, have a kind of a misconception about God. We kind of view him as hovering over us in the heavens and watching us. And if we do something bad, you know he spanks or worse. We do something good and he pats on the head. But I really believe that what God does is he says, "I can show you how to have absolute joy. I call it the plan of happiness and to do that I'm going to have to send it down to earth to prove yourself and get a body and all of those things. But there is no other way. I can't just tap you on the head and say you're good." I mean supposedly taps you on the head and says you're wonderful, and taps me on the head and says you're rotten. Same way, that's not fair. So this is all about the individual. Billions of them. And so the earth just becomes the staging ground for us to play out and prove whether we are willing to have him teach us how to take more and more light and knowledge. I actually coined the phrase 'spiritual magnetism.' I think the Lord says if you do this and this and this you will attract more light and truth to yourself. And if you don't, you're like a magnet you repel it. And that's what we see going on in the world. There is more and more they're just repelling goodness and fairness and righteousness and kindness.

MJ: There's so much more I'd like to ask you about that but we're running tight on time so Elder Lund, how do we best prepare? You talked earlier about how if we're prepared we don't have a reason to fear. How do we best prepare for the Second Coming?

As I thought about it, I think there's three important ways we prepare. One, we just call it knowledge. Number one we need to know the doctrine. We see a lot of our younger generation that are being troubled, and part of that is they just don't understand the doctrine. They don't understand the doctrine of prophet. They don't understand. They think wearing the garment is just a fashion

MJ: Faux pas.

GL: Yeah. You know they don't see anything in there and so, we need to know the doctrine. We need to be more aware of what's going on in the world. Doctrine and Covenants tells us that we need to know what the prophets are saying to us, particularly our prophet now. The second thing is we have to prepare temporally. The church is helping us with that, food storage and get out of debt. The problem is, most people when they see a crisis come the first thing they think of is temporal. Oh, I got to go get some more water and I'm gonna get some more food storage. But the third area is the most important of all and that's what President Nelson's hammering on right now. That's probably too strong a word. He hits it again and again and again, and that is revelation calling down the powers of heaven getting on the covenant path and gathering Israel. And without that spiritual preparation, you can have bomb shelters you can have enough guns to fight off a whole army that won't matter.

MJ: That won't matter. That's powerful. I love that you tied that into the things that President Nelson has been teaching because I think it is such an incredible time to be part of the gospel.

GL: He is feeling an urgency we all feel it. He's feeling an urgency about what's coming too. And it's exciting time.

MJ: Well I feel like after people listen to this episode will feel a little bit more comfortable at least talking about these things and being prepared for these things and that's kind of my hope with this. Elder Lund, before we wrap up we have one last question for you which is a question that we ask at the end of this podcast always, and that is what does it mean to you to be 'all in' the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

GL: Well since you asked me that the other day I've been thinking about that a lot. I love those two words. "All in," because that says it all for me. There are so many things pushing for our attention and our commitments. Elder Jean Cook once made a statement he said, "when we lose no one where our priorities are out of order we lose spiritual power." And so the longer I go, the more convinced I am that if God in Christ are first in our life, I mean absolutely first, above wife, children, church, occupation, anything, then we're solid and we're holding on to the rod and that's what it means all in.

MJ: I love what you said because I think that's so contrary to the way to what the world teaches us, as far as our priorities go. But I think that you're absolutely right, as we put the Lord first everything else falls into place.

GL: I don't know if you saw that on conference Sunday the Salt Lake Tribune put out an article that was called Mormon millennials and they interviewed a bunch that called themselves the part- in, part- out Mormon. Another phrase they use of themselves as "institutional Mormons" and one of them said we kind of use a symbol when we go into a restaurant we turn our coffee cup upside down. But as a woman, I go in with a sleeveless blouse to say yeah I'm living the Word of Wisdom but I'm not wearing my garment. And so it's like they are saying I get to pick and choose what's important to me, which is right. They do but they don't get to pick and choose the consequences. And that's being all in.

MJ: Perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming in and taking the time to talk with us. We are so grateful. And we'll look forward to all the things that we've talked about.

GL: Great. Thank you, Morgan.

MJ: A huge thank you to Elder Lund for joining us. You can find Elder Lund's most recent books, Why Isn't God Answering Me, and volume 5 of The Fire and Steel series, Out of the Smoke, at Desert Book stores now. For more episodes of All In, visit www.LDSliving.com/allin