Jane Clayson Johnson: Depression in The Lives of Latter-day Saints

MORGAN JONES: After a very successful career in network news, broadcast journalist, Jane Clayson Johnson was finally the wife and mother she had always dreamed of becoming when she found herself overcome with a darkness she didn't recognize. In her new book, Silent Souls Weeping, Jane uses the power of story to shine a light on the desperate, dark and lonely reality faced by those who struggle with depression. Jane shares her own harrowing experience along with those of dozens of men, women, and children who have suffered, often in silence, and she offers support, understanding, and hope in this new important book.

Jane Clayson Johnson is an award-winning journalist, widely known for her work at CBS News, ABC News and the nationally syndicated NPR program, "On Point." Over more than two decades she traveled the world covering stories from international news to presidential campaigns and interviewing the biggest newsmakers of the day. Jane is the best-selling author of the book, I Am a Mother. Jane and her husband, Mark, live in Boston, they are the parents of five children and grandparents of three.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, "What does it really mean to be 'all in' the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" I'm Morgan Jones, and I've looked forward to this interview for weeks. Jane, thank you so much for being here with us.

JANE CLAYSON JOHNSON: Oh, you're so welcome. It's great to be with you, Morgan. Thanks for having me on.

MJ: Jane, you begin the book with an open and frank exploration of your own journey through depression. For me, this was interesting to hear because I actually read your book, "I Am a Mother," when I was in high school and it was extremely influential in my own desire to be a journalist. I've kind of followed your career since then and had no idea that you struggled with depression. And so I think this is interesting because this is how depression seems to work. It seems to be in effect in the lives of those that seem like everything is great. It often, like the title of your book says, is actually manifested in silence souls weeping. Was it difficult to share your own story?

JCJ: Um, it was. I mean, I experienced depression in a very unexpected way. And I never dreamed I would write this book, never expected or really wanted to write this book. I mean, I felt like there's a lot of vulnerability in sharing your story. But as I started talking to people and started to understand how widespread the problem of depression is, and how many people are struggling, how many people are not talking about it because they're scared, because they don't know where to turn, they don't have the resources. And frankly, sometimes they're embarrassed or ashamed to be feeling what they're feeling. And so, after I experienced my own depression, I realized that it was really important for me to reach out and to help others through theirs. And through that process of doing that, I realized that I had a story to tell. And I wanted to share the stories of others. And so that's how this book was born.

MJ: I think that you're so right. I think that these stories are personal stories. It is such a vulnerable position that we put ourselves in when we share them, and especially when dealing with this topic. And we'll talk a little bit more later about some of the stereotypes and things that surround being open about this topic. But what do you think that we can do as a society or even as a culture of Latter-day Saints, to open up this conversation and end the silence?

JCJ: Well, I think it's really important number one, to start talking about it. I interviewed over the course of three years more than 150 members of our church to ask them, to listen to them, to talk about their experiences with depression, with mental illness more broadly. And I think what struck me over the course of three years interviewing these many faithful saints, you know, people who keep their covenants and who love the Lord and who want to make good choices, but are brought down, their hearts are heavy, their minds are dark because of illness. And what I learned over and over again is that when you reach out, even in your darkest moments, and you talk with someone and you ask for help, or you reach out and help someone who you can see a struggling, it makes a difference. And if there's anything that I've learned over these three years, it is that we need to reach out and share our stories so that nobody feels alone in these struggles. I mean, for me, it was really hard. And when you're in the depths of a really bad, deep depression, it feels like you know, at least it did for me, It felt like I didn't want to go on anymore. I didn't want to live and so for me, that was so unusual because I'd never felt anything like this before. I mean, it hit me like a freight train.

MJ: Yeah.

JCJ: I didn't know what was wrong with me. And so when I finally realized that I needed help and I finally shared with my husband what was going on in the depths of my pain, you know, it made a difference. So many people are struggling and so many people want to feel better. And so the way for us to make a difference is to be vulnerable, is to share our stories is to reach out and help other people who are in need. And I think that that would be, that'd be a good, good start, that'd be a good place to start.

MJ: Absolutely. It's interesting to me you interviewed more than 150 people for this book, and yet we're saying that this is something people aren't talking about. Why do you think that people were willing to share their stories with you?

JCJ: You know, it's so funny. I would talk to people who I didn't know I mean, most of the people that I interviewed for this book I didn't know, and I had been referred to them through one interview, that interview would tell me about somebody else, and they tell me about somebody else. And I just, I feel like I have, you know, dozens and dozens of new friends because of this project. I think they were willing to tell me their stories because they knew that I was going to tell mine. And I think they knew that-- I think they knew they can trust me with their story, I think they knew that I would respect their experience and I think that they knew that I would tell it in a very real, unvarnished way. I was not going to sugarcoat this, you know, this book is very raw, in many places. I mean, there are chapters on missionaries who come home early from their missions because of depression. There are chapters on postpartum depression, on suicide and it's an epidemic in many places. There are lots of chapters, talking with lots of different people in many different kinds of circumstances and I think people were willing to talk to me because they knew that I understood them and that I was going to tell their stories in the way that they would tell them themselves.

MJ: Right. I think many people have written or talked about this topic, but the thing that makes this book so unique is taking it from an angle of a faithful Latter-day Saint. Like you said, you address these things that are very unique to our culture and I think that as people read that they'll be able to relate with almost every different thing because they've either experienced it or they've seen it and people that they love and care about. Did you, as you were writing about these different situations with mental health issues, did you notice any common threads that ran through the different experiences that people were having?

JCJ: Absolutely. The number one thing that people told me over and over again, is the stigma that they felt was attached to a mental health diagnosis, the stigma that's attached to depression. I think slowly we're overcoming that and I hope this book is another way that that happens. But I think most people feel like somehow they are less of a contributing member of society, or a contributing member of their congregation or their culture, because they have mental health problems because they are suffering from depression. I think people feel like, well, if I can't just snap out of this if I can't just pull myself up by my bootstraps and kind of get over this myself, you know, something must be wrong with me. Why can't I figure this out on my own? And if anybody knew about this, they would think less of me they would, you know, sort of put me in a crazy category which is so contrary to any other form of sickness, right? It makes no sense, right? When you break your leg, you go get a cast put on it when you have diabetes, you take insulin, if you have, you know, cardiovascular disease, you know, you go to a cardiologist. I had one woman tell me, "I wish we could put a cast on our heads because something is broken in there." And that's really hard for people to understand. And so I think the number one thing that I heard over and over again, was the stigma attached to a mental health diagnosis, but also the medication sometimes that is prescribed for.

MJ: I love in Elder Holland's talk, and you reference Elder Holland frequently throughout the book.

JCJ: Well, he was the inspiration for this book. I mean his talk on depression and mental illness in General Conference several years ago, was a watershed moment for me and for many, many people that I interviewed. They felt like that was the first time that it had been acknowledged in our religious community. And they felt like a burden had been lifted, they felt like they were in some ways, kind of free to talk about it carefully and to open up at least in their own families, in their own experience about it. So he really was the impetus for me writing this book.

MJ: Yeah. Well, I think you're absolutely right. I think we've seen since that talk, people becoming more open about it. But I love in that talk, where he says, you know, if you don't take the time to be, to become well, you certainly will take the time to be sick. And this is true in all forms of illness, but certainly, in this situation, I think sometimes people just try to excuse it away. And one thing that I was thinking about as I read your book is that in the church, I think we often talk about discouragement and how discouragement is such a tool of the adversary to make us feel less than or to make us compare ourselves with others, which is a whole nother topic that I think is a plague in our society. But what would be your advice, Jane to someone who's trying to determine whether they're experiencing discouragement and whether it's just Satan trying to get them down, or whether they're actually facing depression?

JCJ: Well, I want to be very clear here, I'm not a doctor. You know, I'm not a medical doctor, I'm not a Ph.D., I'm not here to diagnose anyone. But I speak in this book, experientially, you know from my interviews over the course of three years with dozens and dozens of people. And I'll speak from my own experience to answer your question, which is to say that when I was in my own depression, I could not move away from my feelings. When I'm discouraged, and I've been discouraged many times in my life, over the course of my career, as a mother, you know we all have feelings of discouragement. But when I'm discouraged, I can separate myself from those feelings, I can move away from them, I can shake it off, if you will, maybe not immediately, but eventually I can move on. But when I was depressed, I could not move away from those feelings, it was like I was stuck in the mud. It was like I was caught in wanting or caught in a haze or a fog and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get out of it. So I guess that's the difference for me, is when I'm discouraged I'm a free agent of my emotions and when I was clinically depressed, I feel like I certainly wasn't.

MJ: Jane, you mentioned that you felt discouragement many times in your life. In looking back now, do you think that there were signs of depression for you in your life leading up to the experience that you share in the book? Or did that really just come out of nowhere?

JCJ: No, it really did come out of nowhere. I mean, I've had, you know, I've had hard times, I've had difficult periods of life. But nothing that I couldn't get out of, nothing that a good cry, or two or three couldn't, you know, sort of take care of. But when I was in this clinical depression, it was just completely different. And it was like a freight train had come and hit me broadside. I mean, it was like, someone had taken my mind and hijacked me, I just was a completely different soul, a completely different person. So no, there were no signs. And I think everybody's different, you know, for some people, you know, it comes on gradually, for others, it can be more of a fast onset. But again, I feel like, you know, for me, I didn't expect it, I didn't understand it and I didn't know what to do about it. And that was the big problem.

MJ: Absolutely. Jane, I want to talk a little bit about perfectionism. You write about this in the book, and you say that perfectionism can play a unique part in depression and that within the church, it can be a special problem. You give an example that I love in the book about how a hospital in Utah County said that they see a spike in the amount of women that come in on Sundays, right around the time that church gets out.

JCJ: A social worker, Chris Jody Yells, who worked at Utah Valley University, was working as a clinical social worker at the hospital there in Provo. And she noted that when she was working, that she would see this influx of patients of women coming in on Sundays who felt this way. who felt you know, sort of panicky about a new calling, about something that they'd heard in church. And so yes, I make reference to that in the book. That's right.

MJ: I love that example because I think it's so stark. But what struck you most as you listen to people talk about perfectionism as you wrote about it in the book?

JCJ: Well, I think in our culture, we, you know, we strive to do our best. Members of our church are, you know, generally very good people, you know, we have high standards for ourselves, we have high standards for those around us. And I think sometimes we misconstrue the Savior's admonition to "be ye therefore perfect." I think we put that scripture in Matthew on steroids, to be frank. I think we see that word "perfect" in there and we think, okay, I've got to be perfect right now, I have to be without flaws right now, I have to be without mistake. And if I can't be perfect, since I'm not perfect, I have to give at least the illusion that I am perfect. And I think social media makes this especially tricky, you know, I think we compare ourselves with that social media feed. When everybody else is posting their glossy, you know, photos of their perfect kids on their perfect vacations and their perfect marriages and we think, who am I? I can never measure up to that. And so I think, you know, I think the Savior's plan is to work on the inside. We don't have to worry so much about the outside, we have to stop comparing ourselves to each other, stop trying to be perfect right now. Our leaders say this all the time, they are inspired, we have to listen, they remind us over and over that we do not need to be perfect right now. It's a lifelong endeavor, even an eternal endeavor. Yes, let's move forward on the gospel plan of improvement. But let's also understand what the Savior meant when he said, "be ye therefore perfect."

MJ: I think you're spot on with that. And I think, you know, it's interesting to think about how in our society, I think, like you said, social media has made it, so we're only seeing the perfect version of everyone else's life, we're only seeing the best parts. It's like a highlight reel. But in the church, I think we also have these idealistic ideas of what we need to strive for. And those ideals are in place for a reason, "The Family Proclamation," you know, the ideal of the perfect family, of a family that is living the gospel. And then we also have things like, for me, I'm a single member of the church, and so wanting to be married and have a family. And so I think that we are constantly looking at each other and within the church, we're thinking, well you know, these were the things that I wanted as a result of my desire to live the gospel like I thought that I would have these things, and I don't have them. And I think that also leads to feelings of discouragement, and possibly, depending on the situation can also lead to depression, which I've seen in friends of mine that are in similar life situations. And so I think that concept of perfectionism and kind of tackling that from a Latter-day Saint angle is so important.

JCJ: I think you're exactly right. And I have been there, I've been in your situation, I've been in your circumstance. I think there are a lot of things that contribute to discouragement and certainly depression. But, you know, when we understand our purpose and when we understand that each of us has a particular path and a particular mission in this life, and when we try to align ourselves with God's will, then I think everything else falls into place, and each of us has a different path and that's okay. But I think staying close to the Savior and staying close to his understanding of what we can contribute to this life, to this gospel, to each other, you know, I think that's when true happiness comes.

MJ: Speaking of feeling close to the Savior, I think that falls right in line with trying to stay close to the Spirit. And you have a chapter in the book where he talks about how depression often impacts our ability to feel the spirit. Is that something that you experienced as well?

JCJ: Oh, absolutely. When I was in the depths of my depression-- well, depression not only blocked all feelings for me, but it also included blocking feelings of the Spirit. And so I remember for long stretches of time, I just didn't feel God's love. I just didn't feel any whisperings of the Spirit and I was doing everything right. I was praying, I was reading my scriptures, I was going to the temple, but I didn't feel anything. I didn't feel anything. It was almost as if, you know, this most important part of me had been cut out of me, right? And I didn't know what to do about it. And I heard this over and over again, from people that I interviewed for my book. I remember, several women told me how they felt like God must not love them. They felt abandoned by God. I remember one woman told me about a sense of desperation, frantic desperation, I think, is what she said that she couldn't get relief from the darkness of depression. She felt like her prayers were hitting a wall, you know, she felt like maybe It must be because she was unworthy. You know, I remember growing up thinking, if you're living the gospel if you're doing what's right, if you're making good choices, then you will be happy, right? And if you are making bad choices, and you're not doing what's right and you're not keeping the commandments, then you will be unhappy or sad, right? So I think it's a very easy line to draw when we say, "Oh, I'm unhappy. I'm depressed. What am I doing wrong?" Right? "What is it in my life that I need to change?" And I think as members of the church, we are in a very unique struggle in this area because we try to fit a disease that's manifest through sorrow into a religion that is centered on a plan of happiness. And so I think we have to really recognize that this can be a component of depression and that's one of the most important reasons to get help. You know, you wouldn't sit in the corner and pray your heart disease away, Morgan, you would pray and you would go to the cardiologist. You would pray and you would go to the doctor. So this is not something that is our fault, it is something for which we need to seek help and guidance and try to get out of it, try to change it.

MJ: Yeah, well, and I think especially when you have been someone, I think-- you know reading your book it's very clear, Jane, that you have tried to live a faithful life and to be a good person, and you talk about wanting to always do what God wanted you to do. And so when you've been that person, and you felt what the Spirit feels like guiding you throughout your life, and then all the sudden you feel like it's gone, I can't even imagine what that would feel like.

JCJ: Yeah, it's distressing. And again, I think of all the reasons to get help, for me, that was the most-- looking back, that was the most important reason to get help, is so that I could be well, mentally and emotionally again, so that I could resume those feelings of being connected to the spirit. Being connected to all emotions, but also the ability for me at least to be connected to the spirit.

MJ: Yeah. I think it's interesting and definitely timely that that's been such a focus of President Nelson's time as prophet, is that ability to receive personal revelation. And so again, that's like you said, even more of a reason to get help is Heavenly Father wants to reach us, and He loves us and as we turn to Him, He'll help us through this. But maybe that turning to Him is different in this situation than what it has looked like in the past.

JCJ: I think that's right. And I think, you know, I should say very clearly, depression is not the result of personal inadequacy. It's not a black mark on your character. You know, you can't just snap your fingers and, you know, be well. So again, I think it's worth repeating that getting help for clinical depression is very, it's crucial. It's, you know, it's so important. It's so important.

MJ: In the book, Jane, you've done a wonderful job, I think of weaving these personal stories with the latest scientific research you have. Like you said, stories of over 150 people. And you write in the book, that it's "an effort to raise the blinds on the windows of a darkened room and talk openly about what it means to be depressed." I think one story that I personally loved as a result of something that I have seen for years on social media, was the story of Lizzie Barker. I knew her brother-in-law when I was in college. And for years, I've seen these green teeth, shirts pop up on my social media feed once a year, that say, "Smile for Lizzie." And at first, I was like what is this I don't understand. And so, being the person that I am, I like look it up to try to figure it out and I find these pictures of this beautiful girl who took her own life and found out that these t-shirts that these people were wearing were an effort to honor her and remember her life. And I loved reading about her experience in her family and how they responded in the wake of her passing. And so I think that's a powerful story that you tell and something that's so important. You mentioned earlier suicide being such a problem, especially in the state of Utah, you talk about in the book that it is a problem. Do you want to touch on that at all, Jane?

JCJ: Oh, sure. Yeah, I mean I think the statistic-- well, there are several statistics that are quite jarring. The first to me is that there's been a 28% increase in the suicide rate in the United States over the last 20 years since 1999. A 28% increase in the suicide rate in this country. And in Utah, where you know, what, approximately a third of the Latter-day Saints in this country live, suicide is the leading cause of death for young people ages 15 to 24. The leading cause of death for young people ages 15 to 24. So, you know, we have to talk about the suicide epidemic, we have to talk about, you know, what is what's going on here? What's contributing to this, what's causing this? Elder Dale Renlund, of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, is also a medical doctor. And he made a wonderful series of statements about this. And in an interview, he said, it is completely safe, completely safe to ask someone if they're having suicidal thoughts, or if they're having thoughts of harming themselves. And for my book, I interviewed many doctors who said the very same thing. This notion that talking to someone about their feelings may lead them to act on them, you know, has been debunked by a number of studies, as well as by those who have attempted suicide and are now trying to heal. So talking about suicide can actually help to prevent it. And part of my mission with this book is to shine a light on the need to have these important conversations to open up about it, to start talking about it. Because these numbers are, are incredibly disturbing and just heartbreaking, they're heartbreaking.

MJ: Yeah. I love that, that you said by Elder Renlund and the doctors that you've spoken to because that's something that I've wondered about, you know, is it okay to have that conversation? What other conversations do you hope to spark as a result of this book, Jane?

JCJ: Well, I think through the power of story, this book will help members of our church, and others understand that we have to open a dialogue about depression and about mental health. I personally want to open a new level of honesty and authenticity, more importantly, authenticity, about what we're each going through. And then, by turns, hope. We've got to have hope that we can, tackle this problem, that we can reach out to those that are in need. Many times people would say to me when I would interview them, "I've never talked about this with anyone." "My parents don't even know this," or "I can't believe I'm telling you this." I mean, there were several occasions where I had people I didn't know, reach out to me to say, "I hear you're writing a book on depression. Can I tell you my story? Can I tell you what it's been like for me?" People gave me their journals to read because they want so desperately to help other people. So the conversations that I want to have, I want to start being honest and authentic about what people are experiencing, about what they're going through, about the pain that they're experiencing. And hopefully, when we do that, we can start to see some hope through change.

MJ: How do you think, Jane, this book might help those, like I said, you focus on a Latter-day Saint community. How do you think that this book might help those in leadership positions within the church or those maybe who are ministering to someone struggling with depression, in their individual capacities?

JCJ: So it's a good question. You know, I heard from a lot of leaders, a lot of Bishops, a lot of stake presidents, a lot of Relief Society presidents, who told me that they've seen firsthand that many of our welfare cases, many of our unemployment cases, difficult problems, that a lot of these problems facing families are driven by underlying mental health issues. So I think for leaders, knowing what mental illness looks like, how it presents itself, recognizing the symptoms, that will open the door to understanding how to help. I think we have to educate ourselves about these issues, about the science, about the symptoms and acknowledge their biological component in many regards. But at the very least, be aware of it, and then try to help, try to reach out to find resources for those who are in need.

MJ: Yeah, I think the book does such a good job of telling these personal stories that you kind of start to recognize. I found myself feeling like I was better understanding what is going on in the mind of someone facing some of these struggles. And I think that would be so helpful in trying to help and show compassion and empathy. You have obviously had some pretty incredible experiences during your career as a journalist, how would you say that writing this book compared, both emotionally and in terms of fulfillment, with your previous work?

JCJ: Oh, my. Well, I think over the course of, you know, 20 to 25 years I've had a lot of different experiences in journalism. I've had the opportunity to travel the world and to interview, you know, important people, presidents and opinion makers and, you know, I loved all that. For me, writing this book was incredibly fulfilling because I felt like I was connecting on a very, very important level with many people. I felt like I started to understand people in a way that I hadn't before. I feel like, you know, we go about our lives, and we do our jobs, and we have our home lives that we take care of our families and life kind of goes on. But I think when we stop and understand and appreciate the struggles that people have when we're able to really mourn with those that mourn, I think it can be an incredibly transformative experience. And this book gave me many opportunities to do that. And for that, I will always be grateful for this opportunity to write this book, to connect with so many people, to truly mourn with those who mourn.

MJ: Yeah. I love what you said about, you know, we get so caught up in taking care of our own families and our own lives. But really, when we think about it, when we stop and take a second, we recognize that we're all brothers and sisters. And I think that that experience that you had is connecting on a very personal level with your brothers and sisters and I can see how that would be rewarding. I know for me, Jane, many times the things that I write, when I'm writing about myself and my life, I found that it's helpful to me in writing and interviewing other people, because it helps me connect, and then I am able to find purpose for the difficult things that I go through in my life. I wondered as I read, I couldn't help but think, is this helping her give purpose to the pain that she experienced?

JCJ: Absolutely, It's a very thoughtful question. I'm very insightful. I mean, I think that I personally believe that nothing happens without reason, I think that there are no coincidences in life. And I feel like part of what was so fulfilling about this project and writing this book was that I felt like I had the ability to use my experience to help other people. And that's really at the core of what I'm asking people to do when they read this book, is to understand that they can use their experience to help others. And if they do, you know, we'll all be better. It's like a, you know, we pass it along, we use what what has happened to us to help the next person. And that was a wonderful thing for me about writing this book, it gave what I went through purpose, you're exactly right.

MJ: And I think it's so neat that you did this because it's using a gift and a talent that the Lord has given you, to interview people and to put those things in writing. But we all have gifts that we can use in helping each other as we go along.

JCJ: Absolutely.

MJ: How would you say that writing this book impacted your testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and your belief in a loving Heavenly Father?

JCJ: Well, I think I'd say that this book has given me tremendous empathy. It's given me an understanding of the Savior's admonition, to mourn with those that mourn. It's given me an understanding of what it means to truly utilize the Atonement of Jesus Christ to lessen our pain and to help others. You know, I mean, when I was in the depths of my depression, I mentioned I couldn't feel the spirit. But I think it's important to understand that that doesn't mean the spirit has been removed. You know, God is still there, our Heavenly Father is still there, Christ is still there. And they want to help us and they want to guide us and I think that my understanding of that deepened through the experience of interviewing these many people who have been through some hard things. But their testimonies have been strengthened because of their experience, as has mine.

MJ: Right. Jane, before we finish up, and I just want to thank you, again. Thank you for writing this book, thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it because I think this is something that is going to help so many people. I think that people, everyone wants to know that they're not alone and I think that's what people will find in this book. But before we finish up, I just want to ask you one last question, which is the question that we ask at the end of this podcast in each episode, and that is, "What does it mean to you to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

JCJ: Well, this gospel means everything to me. It has shaped my life, it has impacted my life, it has changed me as a person. It has changed my family, my husband is a convert to the church, it's changed his life. And so by extension, that has changed my life. I see what it does for my children. You know, I think it can be very easy these days, especially, to talk yourself out of faith, to talk yourself out of the gospel. But for me, I choose to believe, I choose to understand that I don't have all the answers to every question. But I know God lives, I know he loves me, I know he has a plan for me and I have always wanted God to know that he could trust me. I wanted him to know that he could trust me in any situation. And so I guess I would say, you know, I'm grateful for this experience of depression. For what it has taught me. I never thought that I would say it, I never thought that I would be grateful for a journey through depression. But it has strengthened my understanding of grace and I feel as though I have a hope in the atonement that is brighter than I ever could have imagined.

MJ: Thank you so much, Jane. I love what you said about wanting the Lord to be able to trust you. I think that is something that I've always felt a desire for in my life as well. And I think that this book, and these people being willing to put their trust in you is, in a way, the Lord showing you that he can trust you as well. And I think that that's a really beautiful thing. And it reminds me of President Monson saying that he always wanted, he always wanted the Lord to know that he could trust Him, to do His errand, and certainly the Lord has entrusted you with doing an important errand here. So thank you so much.

JCJ: Well, thank you. What a delight to speak with you. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this project and this book and about mental health. I appreciate it and I hope that people find hope in this work. That's my hope. Thank you, Morgan.

MJ: We are so grateful to Jane Clayson Johnson for joining us on this week's episode of All In. You can find Jane's new book, Silent Souls Weeping, on Desert Book shelves now. For more episodes of All In, visit www.LDSliving.com/allin.