Season 7 Ep. 11 Transcript | Sunday on Monday

Segment 1

I want you to imagine the messiest house that you have ever seen. I mean, how messy is messy for you? What do you notice in your mind that makes it such a mess, and in your estimation, what would it take to clean it up? A few light chores, a little bit of dusting, a cleaning service. You know, maybe you're just gonna pour gasoline on it, light the whole thing on fire.

That is the question I want us to think about and discuss today as we talk about Genesis Chapters 37 through 41, the House. So Jacob, because man, this house is messy. And yet, as my guest pointed out in our discussion, you'll hear later the Covenant story keeps moving and wonderfully enough, making and keeping Covenants is the best cleaning service out there.

Welcome to the Sunday, on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come following lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it.

Is going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance [00:01:00] your come Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend Ann Ricky and I loved meeting you. Hello. Now the best thing about this study group is each week we're joined by one or two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different.

And today I have a new friend, one person, and I'm so excited to introduce you to her because you guys, she is the best. Her name is Dr. Lori Denning. Hello Lori. Hey, how are ya? And it's not quite Doctor. I still have a couple months before that happens to call nearly Dr. Denning. Nearly Dr. Laurie Denning.

There you go. Listen, anybody who has their PhD, you're getting a doctor from me for sure. You've earned it. Oh my gosh. Okay. Lori, tell us a little bit about yourself. What do my listeners need to know about you? Where, what are you doing? What's your story? All that fun stuff. Yeah. Where are you from? Yep. Yep.

I grew up in San Diego, grew up right on the border in Chula Vista, so say hey to all my California nuggets. But, um, I'm an identical twin, so I grew up with my twin and we stopped it. So that's pretty common, I think, in a church, but lots of blended families. And then I went into business actually, so I have a [00:02:00] long career in business and then felt the calling about 10 years ago.

And as an adult human returned to even an undergrad and went through more school than I care to enunciate, but went back through a, um, an undergrad, a master's degree. And then I'm just finishing my PhD right now in basically, uh, the Old Testament and Hebrew studies and I teach. At the glorious Brigham Young University, Idaho, in the religious ed department.

So that's, yay, that's me. Yay. Uh, we'll get more into that because I'm gonna ask how you ended up doing that and the decision and all that fun stuff. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But, okay. That is so exciting. And I know her sister Lisa. Mm-hmm. So that they are exactly alike in my mind. They're so fun. They both are hilarious and awesome women.

So you, you tried to tell me I'm not the fun one. Yeah. Yeah. She's the, she's the fun twin and I'm the smart twin. I get it because we're twins, so Yes. It's so I can compliment myself by telling you about Lisa, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, great, great family. Uh, I served a mission in Barcelona, Spain, so let speak Spanish.

Barcelona. Barcelona. Yep. And, [00:03:00] um, and yeah, and just, uh, just loving the gospel and doing my thing up here in the wintery north. Very cool. That was wintery North in Rexburg, isn't it? I think it's always, always. Even in the summer, you know? Summer. Yeah. Okay. Well you guys we're gonna have a fun discussion because sometimes as I do, I reach out to my guests and say, okay, just send me some talking points.

And Lori did not disappoint boy. She sent me talking points and I, she basically sent me the whole episode. So it was awesome. She's came up with some really great things in this scripture block. So here's what I want you to do. If you wanna know more about my guest, make sure you check out our show notes where you can read her bio and see her picture, and you'll find that at lds living.com/sunday on Monday.

So everyone, for reals, I always say this, but you're gonna wanna grab your scriptures and something to mark them with. And let's dig into Genesis chapters 37 through 41. Okay. First things first, Lori. Mm-hmm. Just share with us what did the Holy Ghost teach you when you were preparing for this whole discussion?

Ah, such a good question, Tammy. So as I was preparing, there's just that phrase that keep, that kept coming back to all of us. It's even in the [00:04:00] Come follow me. And I think it's just a brilliant outline, but it's that, uh, from Genesis 39, the Lord was with Joseph, right? And here's, here's why I think this, keep this, it wasn't just that phrase, but it was this idea.

It just shows up all the time. It shows up when he's prospering, right? When things are great, but it also shows up again when he's imprisoned. And I, I was really feeling impressed that. You know, Joseph's greatness. It wasn't built in Pharaoh's court. Spoiler, if you haven't read the story, but it, it's built like an obscurity.

Yeah. And the Lord is just shaping him. Long before Joseph could even see where he was heading, and he didn't seem to understand why he was in the pit and why his brothers were so mean, and all these things kept tapping to him. He didn't understand the false accusation, he didn't understand the prison and the text never, never says.

The Lord left him. It just says the Lord was with him and that's how the Lord did it. And he didn't remove the difficulty, but he formed Joseph from the inside. And so I just kept thinking like, how is that like our lives? Right. We don't mm-hmm. Always understand in the moment, but sometimes only with [00:05:00] hindsight we look back and we see like all the detours that we now realize are kind of training grounds.

Yeah. Lord's shaping us for this responsibility he'd imagine. So I just love that. And the Lord was with Joseph. I like that too, Lori, because we have the benefit of hindsight reading this that happened so long ago, and even in our own lives, we can say, when was the time that you recognized that the Lord was with you?

But I would dare say today for this episode, we want all of our guests to realize the Lord is with you right now. Like, don't think you're gonna get through this and look back about, I mean, you probably will, you'll look back on that moment and go, oh, I can see the Lord's hand in all of this. Mm-hmm. But like you said, I think it's so important for us to recognize he's with me right now, and because of that, what is happening right now in my life that is going to be for my benefit, even though it's the hardest time ever trusting that the Lord is with us.

And like you said. For Joseph to be in prison and realizing, oh, but the Lord is with me here. And then we see the miracles that take place. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I think that's our challenge for everyone listening is just to realize the Lord is with you right now. [00:06:00] He is aware of you. He's going to help you navigate whatever it is you're going through.

And as we study these different verses and these, all these stories, it is so fun to see, wow, the Lord was there the whole time. Mm-hmm. Even, and in fact, we're gonna get into this in chapter 37, 'cause there's one little, there's like three little verses to me that I've just noticed for the first time really.

And I was. What in the world. If that guy hadn't been there at that one time, maybe none of this would've happened. So I can't wait to point that out, but, or maybe God put that one guy right there at that one time for Joseph to end up where he ended up. So we'll talk about that next week. 'cause there's a phrase that I love that Joseph uses to go, you know what?

God was there the whole time. So thank you for sharing that. That is. Awesome. Alright, so here's what we're gonna do then. In the next segment we are gonna talk about examples of situations that did seem hopeless, but turned out for good. But first we're gonna talk about that messy house. We'll do that [00:07:00] next.

Segment 2

Okay, Lori, tell me right now, I wanna know how messy is messy for you when you think of a messy house? Oh, I think it, I always feel like hoarder house. Have you seen those hoarder shows? Sure. Right. Where you just can't get through, there's stuff piled up and everywhere and you know, the cell phones are ringing and, and stuff's on the stove and trash is piled up and, you know, bills to pay and uh, whatever.

So I just, I think, man, super messy, right? You just go pretty messy house and sometimes. I think the messy house for me is like, yeah, but that front door's, clean yard looks good. Right, right. You don't, you don't always know how messy it truly is, or like your car, your car where you're like, oh no, uh, let me clean out my car.

Right. You just, you just go, oh man. Right. That's, uh, maybe I've just now told you too much about myself, but, uh, great. On the outside. Yeah. Probably should have take that through the car wash floor, so, yeah, so that's pretty messy. How about you? That's great. Oh, you know, this is fun. So, as you know, did some [00:08:00] hard time in the singles board and one of the singles activities we had is that we had to, our ward was big into going in and helping people who had homes that needed help.

Mm-hmm. Because. Whatever the, the guy in our bishop brick was a home builder, so he is like, let's go into inner city, salt Lake City and find homes we can fix. Yeah. So they found a home and it was a hoarder home. I'd never, the show wasn't even on TV at that time. I'd never even seen anything like this. And I was, uh, in charge of this project and so I walk in the house to meet the woman and my mind was blown.

Yeah. A little path from her front door. Out the back door piled high. So much stuff. And I just like, I've never seen anything like it in my life. But like you said, beautiful on the outside. 'cause I remember going there thinking, what are we gonna do here? This please. Oh boy. I mean, and it was this little grandma who had been by herself in this house, cobwebs, roaches in the cobwebs.

And I think she had like 82 cats. Who were using the, the who were using the cupboards to go to the bathroom in [00:09:00] and we had to scoop like fecal matter out of the cupboards and clean 'em. Biohazard. Biohazard. Oh, we had to wear suits. Yes. But then to see it when we, it was clean. Listen, that's one of those houses where I was like, what if we accidentally just have a fire?

Yeah. How did we just move? It's like, let's just get the money and get her into it somewhere Nice. But right. Oh man, it was gross. Well, in the land of like Instagram and social media, I think that's the thing that we only show people, right? Yeah. And that's just normal. But we only show everyone our good side.

But we all know that. We're like, whoa, but I've got some cobwebs and some, you know, kitty in the back and, and, and things to be, need to clean out. And we just don't, you know, we're, we're pretty private, especially as North Americans, right? We're like, well, I'm not sharing that. And, um, oh yeah. And so we just don't share that information and as opposed to say, Hey, I need some help, um, cleaning out my spiritual life or my, you know, dumpster fire, um, apartment or whatever it is.

Yes. I don't have a dumpster fire apartment, but I'm just saying we all have issues and we don't always clean 'em out. [00:10:00] We just show that it's all great, just like these families. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm. I'm gonna segue right there, Tammy, because I do it. Okay. So I think one of the things that I grew up thinking about scriptures was that these people in these scriptures were so great.

And so virtuous and so awesome that they were perfect in nearly every way. I mean, we knew they weren't Jesus Christ, but they were one notch below. Yeah. And so we could model our lives after them. And then what a shocker. When I actually read them and I was like, these people are a dumpster fire. Right.

These are just a yard sale of a mess of scattered all over and we just, what a mess. Yeah. I was like, oh, I see that the Lord still works with them anyway. Mm-hmm. And that was, that was a shocker though. 'cause I really thought, man, these people were put together and they. Aren't at all. No put together. I love that you pointed this out.

It was so much fun to study because you said, and I love this, that the house of Jacob is so [00:11:00] messy, the House of Israel, really messy. And then we have some scriptures. So go into our show notes and make sure you guys look these up. We have listed how the house of Jacob is so messy and we're gonna talk about these, but let's get into this house of Jacob then So messy.

And we just, in fact. Even though it's not in the scripture block, because we're supposed to cover 37 through 41. We had to go back to Genesis 35. So there's the story of Dina Uhhuh and how that happens. And then Simeon and Levi take over and kill people in defending their sister's name. Like pretty dirty, right?

Yeah. Like they wouldn't listen to their dad. I get wanting to defend your sister. 'cause what happened to her is horrible. Mm-hmm. But Jacob was very clear, like, let it go boys. And they're like, no way and so messy, we're gonna go kill people. Right? Yeah. And we're going to lie and, and trick them. Right. Again, they don't have an excuse.

The people were terrible, like the the son as the, the boyfriend, whatever. But pretty terrible with an assault. But yes, you just go, this is a terrible story. Yeah. This is like the older [00:12:00] brothers go in and kill all these people, kill all the men while they, after they'd just been circumcised. In fact, I love that the verses and while they were still sore, immediately came in and just.

Killed all the men. 'cause they couldn't fight. They couldn't fight. Mm-hmm. You got that messiness. Then you have chapter in Genesis 35. Mm-hmm. Also Rachel Dyson childbirth. You have, oh, and I put this down like the blended families of all blended families, like of epic proportions. They're blended family in all capital letters.

That's messy as we know. Oh, and I think that Genesis 35, we forget about Joseph. Yeah. That Joseph is mourning his mom. He's just lost his mom and his little brother isn't very old, and so you just go, wow, he's just coming off how many years it is, but. We think he's only about 17, so it can't be very long before, so you just think, wow, this is, you know, you just pick up the terrible story of how messy it is, but you're like, yeah, they, they lost, lost someone close to them.

Yeah. They're closest person. And how would that be? [00:13:00] And so you just go, man, this family. Right. They're naughty. Mm-hmm. And then they're broken. Oh, I like that. They're naughty and they're broken. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've got, thank you for saying that. I, I'm writing that down. I love that. Because in, in chapter 35, Reuben sleeps with a handmaid.

Uh, yeah. Then Grandpa Isaac dies. Then you got chapter 38, Tamar and Judah, that whole story. Yeah. And so this, this family is naughty. And broken. And broken. Yeah. Okay, so talk to me about this. Let's get into Genesis 37. Talk to me about the messiness of that chapter. Well, I think 37 is so great because you already know all this brokenness and if I take one more leap out, remember it seems like Genesis, you do the, the creation and all of that, and then it seems to be rushing.

To slow down. Mm-hmm. So it's rushing to get to this story of this family and, and, and you really slow down. And 37 is where the story really slows down. And, and I'm just gonna do a little nerd thing [00:14:00] for us here real quick, please. Is that, um, this is the single longest story basically in the Old Testament.

So, and, and, and the New Testament too. If you don't count the gospel being one story, but it's the single longest story. And for North Americans or moderns, we're really used to stories being long and slowing down hours and hours, and then a prequel to tell you everyone's backstory. Mm-hmm. And all the context of how they grew up and why they are the way they are and, and ancient scripture's not.

It's really short. You might have two sentences that say, and. You know, this thing happened and then you're like, wait, I'm supposed to like, like this character. Mm-hmm. And get to know them and see myself in them. So the good news is that, yeah, those older stories super fast. Like one verse, Hagar, don't know, hardly know what's going on with her.

And then, uh, you know, you just move on. And then. Here we're gonna have chapters and chapters and chapters and chapters, and we get to see the whole arc of this family. Mm-hmm. So it is an awesome story, but it's so perfect and I think it helps us because our lives are [00:15:00] long arcs. Yeah. And we have all these ups and downs.

And so 37, let's go there real quick. So 37 goes there and it, it kind of slows down. And so you always have these transitions, right? So Jason lived here and dah, blah. And then here are the generations, and anytime you see that word, generations or the whatever, think of. A seam. It's a seam of a quilt. So it's taking one patch and another patch and it's going to seam them together.

Right. And there're about 11 of these. There are 11 of them in Genesis. And there's one more numbers. And so you seam together the family, so you're like, and I'm jumping ahead. Or if you were watching a movie, it would be where it got black and white, or it went ulu and it got all weird. So it's like, and now we're moving into time.

Right. Or there would be a montage or something at that point. And so we're montaging up and then we introduce. Joseph and he was like, Joseph was 17 and he's in the pasture, you know, with his brothers and, um, and is, and even the boys from his, um, you know the other mom from the other moms bill. Yeah. And they're out there and then [00:16:00] you learn the very first thing about him.

And Joseph brought a bad report of them. And you're like, wait, our hero is a tattletale. Yeah. Stitches get stitches, Uhhuh. Yeah, totally. And you're like, uhoh, this isn't gonna end well for him. Um, I told that once in a gospel doctrine class that he was kind of a, a jerk. And people are still offended. They still tell me that 20 years later.

And I'm like, yeah, but did you read the story? He's just a kid, right? Yeah. He's a kid and he's gonna go out and he's gonna tattle that they weren't. And you're like, but everybody knows that's probably a bad call. Joseph doesn't though. So what do we learn? This is a young man who is not that mature. He's, he's not, he's typical six, 17-year-old boy.

Yeah. 16, 17. Mom is like, yeah, I'm gonna go tell, and then it tells you and it builds on top of it. And so you have to slow down and go. And then Israel again, that's Jacob, right? Jacob loves Joseph more than his other sons. And you're like, uhoh. Oh no. Oh no. Right. This is, mm, some favoritism. Member broken house.

Broken house. Yes. So you're [00:17:00] like, uhoh, they're not making it any better. And he loved them because he was born, you know, and then he made him a robe of many colors or whatever it is, right? Yeah, yeah. Mystery Hebrew there. But he makes him this special robe, and so you're like, I can see where this is going.

So the story is setting all of this up for us that we already know what's gonna happen. Even if Joseph seems like, do, do, do, do. I don't see what's happening. And then, and then this is how this little paragraph ends, right? And, and verse four. And when the brother saw that their father loved him more than all his brothers, they hated him.

And they would not speak peacefully with them. Now I'm in the English Standard 'cause version. Uh, just 'cause it's a little easier English. So good. If you're wondering why those words don't read Exactly. I'm not, I paraphrase, but kind of So, so then you're like, so it sets it up that it's this broken family that.

That he has a special gift and you're like, wait, he's gonna be the special son. He has a special gift. His dad is blessing him with this special coat. And you're like, yep. And we all know all the colors [00:18:00] and you've got extra points if you can sing all the colors in order from the Joseph Smith, Joseph and the amazing technical dream coat.

Um, but he, uh, he's blessed, but it's problematic. Nobody's appreciating this special gift. Right, right. And it's like threefold. Threefold. Trouble. One, he's a tattletale. Two, his dad shows him favoritism, right? Mm-hmm. And so much so that gives him a gift. And then the brothers see it. So you're like, this isn't gonna end well, this isn't gonna end well, not.

So, Tammy, here's my question then. Yeah. Why is the story about this kid. Like this story is already showing up that you're like, well, let me just tell you about this story that's not gonna start out great. And you're like, wait, what? Right? Mm-hmm. Why? Why does scripture start out with a story of a of messy homes and a kid who doesn't see what's coming?

I think what I love about you, that question you just asked, is when you start reading chapter 37, I think it's an invitation for us. To just [00:19:00] realize they're real people with messiness. Mm-hmm. And whatever your scenario is, you're doing great. Like, yeah. Let's just, let's just sit. Can we all just, I, for me it's like, uh, one of those meditation breaths, like everybody breathe in.

Yeah. Yep. Breathe out. It's okay if your family's messy. 'cause this is really messy. Everything we've just talked about leading up to this, and you've got this brother who they don't like, you can understand why they sell 'em. You get it? Mm-hmm. Yeah, a little bit. And so one of the things I'd love was when you asked this question in your outline, 'cause you said, where do we see covering instead of healing?

And I want you to talk to me about that. What did you mean by that? 'cause I've been thinking about that question all week. Well, we go into the story and you don't really see at the beginning especially, they're gonna cover up all of the hes right. Okay. So spoiler alert on the plot. So, um, I'm not using the term cover, like to atone for something Right.

To cover an, um, kfar or something like that. Yeah, that's like too nerdy even for me at times. But what I'm thinking is they, [00:20:00] they hide what's going on with them. They're hiding everything. So instead of bringing up that they are frustrated with Joseph, or instead of talking to Joseph or taking Joseph before they're dead, or the sons that are out screwing around when they're supposed to be working, instead of going, yeah, we probably should have been working.

No, everybody covers it up, right? So we're always, wow, I like that covering. They're covering. They're covering. So they're hiding. And they don't, they don't really admit where there are problems and they don't. Open those wounds. They're not open with each other until that end, spoiler alert for next week, but Right.

They, they don't finally say, yeah, I was, I was naughty or Yeah, I didn't learn. Um, and so, and, and Joseph, so Joseph doesn't get it. He doesn't get it. He's just a kid. He doesn't get what's going on. And so I think they, they cover, they try to hide. Instead of try to fix, they don't try, they don't confront and heal.

Mm-hmm. They don't, they don't pick off the scab. And again, I'm, I, I'm no, [00:21:00] you know, counselor, so if you, you have other advice, don't follow this if this is not what we're saying. But, but we sometimes need to just like, don't plow forward and hide what's going on in our broken families or our spiritual lives.

We need to pick off the scab, clean it out the wound, put a bandaid on it and heal. They don't until the end, right? Yeah. So this whole time they just make it worse and worse and worse. And so I just think there's this story of them hiding and it's deceptive. And can I teach you, can I teach you one more nerdy thing, please.

Here's a nerd thing. I love this. All right, so here's a nerdy thing. There's a thing called a motif. Motif is just a pattern, right? We see it and through the stories, there's a pattern of a goat. A goat is a motif for deception in these stories. So if you go back to the story of Rebecca and Isaac, they use a goat to make Jacob look like he's furry, right?

Like his brother Esau. And so you're like that deception of the goat. And then here there's gonna be a deception where they hide [00:22:00] that Joseph was killed and what did they say happened? They cut up a goat and take his, and they put blood on his. And then, right. Uh, in the Judah and Tamar story, which we don't have a ton of time to go into, um, he tries to, uh, uh, Judah is naughty again there, and he tries to say, oh, I, I'll pay you off, uh, with a goat.

So this goat thing, you guys we're supposed to be clever and we're supposed to see it, that you're like, this deception, this covering, they've been doing, this family keeps doing it. Jacob did it. And now, um, and Rebecca did it, and now. You know, her son's doing it and then their son's doing it, and, and so it just keeps coming back until they fix it.

Mm. So you're gonna see this, right, this goat theme of this deception of hiding and covering. Wow. Again, that's pretty subtle, but, but as an ancient reader, you would've been like, oh, there's that goat. There's that goat. Right? The silly goat is, is reminding [00:23:00] you that that deception and covering is not gonna end well in this story either.

Very cool. Yeah, I love that. Please nerd out anytime you want. Okay. This is gonna be okay. So just an aside, I don't even know if it goes in the right now, but there you go. Oh, it does. Okay. Thank you for that aside. That was awesome. Okay, so let's do this then. In the next segment, we are gonna continue to talk about messy houses.

And now that we know how messy this house is, there's some hope because in the next segment we're gonna talk about something that works even in a messy house. That's a good thing. We'll do that next.

Segment 3

This is such a messy house. And one of the things you talked about in the last segment was that Joseph has this gift. He has the ability to have dreams. Mm-hmm. And I think it's really important to notice that even in messy houses, spiritual gifts still exist. And so let's talk about this gift, because I like the way that you set this up where you said spiritual gifts and callings are not the same as spiritual maturity.

So talk [00:24:00] to me, what do you mean by that? The thing that we're really famous for with Joseph is his dreams. Right? Okay. So after it sets it up that this isn't gonna start, well, the next thing it tells us about his dream. So he has a dream and it's the sheep's, but then it goes to a second dream and it's more cognic.

Sun moves and stars, and they're all bowing to him. And of course he doesn't see it. He doesn't see that the spiritual gift. He is like, I can't wait to share the good news that my spiritual gift will completely. Upset this family and it'll turn everything on his head. Even his dad is like, dude. Are you saying that your mother and brother, the mother that just passed away fairly recently, right?

The son, moon and Stars mm-hmm. Are all gonna bow to him. Are you even saying. That even I'm gonna bow to you. He seems to be kind of cautioning them. Like Joseph. Yeah. And then later we know these dreams are gonna come back, that it's what saves them, right? Mm-hmm. As his ability to do these dreams. So dreams.

Good thing. Spiritual gift, good thing. But [00:25:00] Joseph isn't, we call it formation, right, in spiritual terms, but it's not matured. He doesn't understand it. He doesn't know how to use it. He doesn't go to Jacob first or his mom who's passed away. He doesn't go and say, Hey, I've had these spiritual experiences.

Help me understand them, or How can I share these? He just was like, Hey, good news everyone. I'm gonna be in charge. And they're like, wait, what? So they're not ready for that, and he's not ready for that. And we're gonna see that the whole story is going to be a story of him maturing. Mm-hmm. With how to use that spiritual gift when it comes to spiritual gifts.

If you had a student come to you and say, how do I know what my spiritual gifts are? What would you say? What's your advice to someone who wants to know, well, what are my, or what are my kids' spiritual gifts? Yeah. How do you figure that out? Well, I think there's some go-tos. Your patriarchal blessing, sometimes we'll do it.

Mm-hmm. Here's Lori's version. Sometimes I think it's the thing that comes so easy for you. Yeah, just like Joseph, that you don't even realize that's hard for anyone else. So it might be that you're really [00:26:00] great. At noticing people and just being aware that they're down and just, you're very sensitive. And for me, for example, that is not my gift.

I'm like, I don't know. Right. I'm just not that I'm not astute to people's emotional states. Right. But I might be good at scripture reading. And so I'm like, well, everyone loves scripture reading like this, right? And other people are like, no, I do not. Yeah. So in some ways I think we discount our spiritual gifts, or we're a little bit like Joseph, where we're like, Hey, I've had a dream.

And we don't realize that other people don't. So I was looking for something and I'm like, well, what's your natural go-to in a spiritual event? Do you love prayer? Do you love scripture study? Do you love service? Do you love the temple? Do you love contemplation? Are you aware of people? Maybe you just are always super faithful.

Maybe you're just the person that's always supportive. Maybe it's music, maybe it's, you know, you're the best word clerk we've ever had 'cause you're the best accountant. And you're like, well I didn't think about that, a spiritual gift. I'm like, well, we need that too. Oh, for sure. And is anyone that can do math and numbers?

Yep. And absolutely we discount. Discount 'em. We [00:27:00] discount just a little bit. Like I think, again, this is interpretation possible, Lori here, that sometimes we discount our spiritual gifts because we're looking over at someone else's spiritual gifts and ah, that one would be the one I want. But boy, just being, you know, helpful inward, that's not a thing, is it?

And you're like, yes, that is a thing, right? That's totally a thing. But you're looking, I wish I had a dream. And you're like, but let me go and do all this temple work. Oh, for sure. Spiritual gift. Yeah. Yeah. People that can do genealogy. So great way outta my wheelhouse. So great. And I go, that's a mystery to me.

I don't even know what you're doing there. Yeah. But people would say, Lori, you really like scriptures and you like read these stories. And I'm like, well, yeah. Right. Because they're stories and doesn't love stories. But other people are like, I wanna be able to interpret scripture, do something. So I think of course, patriarchal blessings praying about it, you know, really asking, just go ask it.

Mm-hmm. But we can also cultivate them and I think we forget that one, but gospel, Lori, I think sometimes. You know, it says all people have a gift so that we can serve each [00:28:00] other and we'll all be edified, paraphrase. But I think sometimes it's the thing that you're already doing that you discount because you're like, but mine isn't as good as someone else's.

Wow. Thank you for that answer. So the thing that Joseph's really good at, the thing that he's doing is he's having these dreams. So bracket of verses seven, three through 10, cure his dreams. I love verse 11, and his brothers envied him, but his father observed the same. Jacob's like, okay, interesting, interesting.

But he did scold him right before, and he goes, are you sure? So your mother and brothers and I come down and bow ourselves, you know, he goes, but that verse with Jacob reminded me when I was reading that this time, Tammy, it reminded me of Mary. In the Gospel of Luke where she hauled all these things close to her heart.

Yes. So it's like what something's going on here. Yeah. And I'm not sure it's spiritual. It's big clearly for both Mary and Jacob and his family. But you're like, I don't know where everything's going yet. But I'm gonna hold onto that. The father kept his saying in his heart, [00:29:00] Mary kept it close, and they're like, something's going on here.

Mm-hmm. And I wonder how many times in our lives if we're not like, Hey, I'm seeing my friend's family, myself who has these spiritual gifts, and you're like, I wonder what they're gonna be with that someday. Yeah. There's, there's something going on here. What a great way to look at that. I wonder what they're gonna do with this.

Especially when you look at kids who are growing up now and the world we live in today, like. What are we, what's the Lord going to use with this? Because mm-hmm. These kids today are coming out strong and they're coming out opinionated, and they're coming out like, at least my kids are, I'm not like that.

Where did you get this? But in the world we live in today, they have to be, they have to be informed, they have to be educated, they have to be able to say what they think and feel and have a foundation. I feel like as a parent right now, that's my job to give them a solid foundation so they can, I don't know, bring board to the next thing, right?

Yes. They gotta bounce outta that. I see it with the students here at the BYU and I'm always like, man, you guys are the adults now. You're the leadership of the church, and what will you do? This is [00:30:00] unfolding, continuing restoration, and I wonder. What you were being prepared for and you'll see their eyes sometimes get bed.

Like, wait, I'm in charge now. And I'm like, yeah. Pretty much. Like, I'm old, I'm out. Oh, that's awesome. You're in, right? Yeah. They are amazing. They are so bright. They are so astute spiritually. They have so many gifts and they work so well with each other. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. They're so interactive and so I just, I do not worry about this next generation of, some of you people are, don't know the students like I do.

These young adults are amazing, but I do wonder, a little bit like this, I wonder. This is gonna lead them. Yeah. What will they need to use these gifts? So some of them may have dreams, some of them may be, again, really great missionaries. Some of them may be, you know, really great scholars, whatever it is.

And I think, uh, we're seeing that there are times in our lives that we're like, I wonder what the Lord was preparing me for by giving me that gift of patience or of empathy or faith. And sometimes you're like, I don't want that gift. Don't want that gift. [00:31:00] That's gonna be a no thank you. Yeah, no thanks. But other times I think it's really powerful to say, I wonder why he was preparing me for that.

Okay. Well then talk to me about this idea about the gap between being called and being ready. Mm-hmm. And I like how you pointed this out. We have this long arc of apprenticeship for Joseph because here's, he's a young 17-year-old. Mm-hmm. And after he gets sold, his family won't see him for about 15 more years.

Mm-hmm. And so talk to me about that arc of apprenticeship and called versus ready. I love that you pointed that out. Yeah, I think we often think, oh, he, well, this is what I thought. Reading this story originally as a kid, I was like, man, they were so mean to him, and he was clearly the leader, and he'd clearly gotten these visions, but it started to tell us he was kind of immature.

And they weren't ready. And so we realized he isn't ready. Mm-hmm. So the things that happened to him seemed to be training him up. So the Lord put him in these situations where he could choose, you know, he didn't have to step up and be a great servant in Potiphar's house. He didn't have to run away from Potiphar's wife, he didn't have to keep up his [00:32:00] spirituality so that when he had visions, he could talk to the, you know, the baker and the cup bear and those guys, he didn't have to do those.

Things imprisonment, right? He could have just been like, oh, whatever. But the Lord put him in a path where he could learn to use that gift that would end up saving his whole family. Mm-hmm. But he didn't. The first part of the story is he had the gift, but he didn't know what to do with it. He wasn't mature as an adult, as a spiritual adult.

And so this story of him going through all of these ongoing things seemed to be like, well, what will you choose Joseph? Yeah, I don't think the Lord's like, you know, throwing obstacles in his way necessarily. But I think that the obstacles that he had, he had to choose, will I turn to the Lord and will I use this to build my spiritual formation?

Will I use this to become what the Lord wants me to do? Or will I walk away? Well, I say, you know what? I'm an Egyptian now I'm a slave. Forget it. And he doesn't, and we see it over and over. He works hard and he [00:33:00] becomes the best in Potter First's house. And then again, will he be seduced, right? Mm-hmm. By Potter's wife?

And he's like, no. And we we're gonna read these other stories where yes, Judah does. Yeah. And these others, they're naughty, right? We already did that. Reuben naughty. Yes. Every story of sexual impropriety. And she looks like, I'm not gonna do that. Even when he's being assaulted. And so he had a chance to choose every time in his life what he was gonna do.

But all those things are built on top of his gift. He's not having a dream about Potter first wife. He's not having a dream about working hard. He's maturing. And then when he is thrown in the pit, what happens? Oh, those dreams. Now I understand. Now I understand society and people and why I have this gift and how I can use it.

So I think spiritual gifts are things we get, but it doesn't mean that we always know how to use them. Yeah. And the Lord's gonna say, well, what will you choose? Follow the Lord. And I [00:34:00] can make those spiritual gifts really help Zion and the kingdom. Mm-hmm. Or you can go, ah. Yeah. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that, but I love the idea of that because for any of us that get to work with the youth, how awesome to just make that be your focus.

Find out what those kids that you work with are good at and pointing it out to them and saying, that might be your spiritual gift, or, mm-hmm. Or, you sure are really good at that. Clearly Heavenly Father has given that to you. And help kids now see what they're good at. 'cause Patriarchal Blessings is a great resource, but also anybody that works with youth, boy, that is your time to shine.

'cause you know. Hopefully you know what your spiritual gifts are, but to really help kids today figure that out, I think we don't talk about it enough. So I really like that, Lori. I think that's powerful. Yeah, I think you, that's really good. I like that, Tammy. I think you do see them. I think sometimes your friends and your family and your instructors can see it pretty clearly.

Absolutely. Right. They're like, well, you oh, clearly are gifted, and they're like, I am. Yes. That might be your spiritual gift. That's brilliant. Oh, this is so fun. Okay, so let's get in chapter 37 then, and we're gonna mark something really [00:35:00] quick and then we'll go on into the next segment. I said that there's some random guy that shows up and this always blows my mind.

Certain man. So Joseph has this dream. His brothern envied him. His father observed him, and then his dad sends Joseph to go check on his brothers. And when he goes to check on his brothers, he says, I want you to find out if they're well, because they're taking care of the flock. So you get into Genesis 37 15.

Mm-hmm. And out of nowhere, 15, 16, 17, and 18 is like, there's a certain man who finds Joseph. And Joseph's like, have you seen my brothers? And I just think it's just interesting because he is like, oh yeah, I think they're over there in Dothan or Dohan. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna say it. Yeah. And I'm like, boy, if that one guy hadn't been there, maybe Joseph would've been like, dad, I can't find him.

And he come home and all would've been good. Yeah. But because this man's like, oh no, here's where I saw them. And then sure enough, that's where Joseph finds them. He finds his brothers, and then you get this whole storyline. I do love that some people meet according to Jewish scholars, they think it was an angel.

Mm-hmm. And so it was sent there by God, like, no, this is part of the plan for Joseph. Isn't that fascinating? 'cause I read it and I'm like, boy, this one guy changed the whole fate of this kid. Yeah. It's used a lot [00:36:00] actually, Tammy. And a lot of times we see it in King James. A certain man or a certain, oh, certain woman, certain.

I love that phrase. Yeah. So they'll do it and you're like, someone was put in your place. And you're thinking they're just like an average Joe. They don't have a name, and they're like, no, you know that person is, that person is just there and there's no genealogist, no explanation, no like name. Yeah. And so Genesis is never casual with detail.

And so if it names someone, sometimes it's importance, but if it doesn't name 'em. It's okay too, because it's usually saying something about them. There's something important. So Joseph's wandering, he is sent by his father. He doesn't know where his brothers are. And if the certain man doesn't show up, nobody even knows.

And so we slow down and say, wait, who is this person? So it's a hinge. So in theological terms, what happens in those? It's like God shows up in blue jeans. You're like, he's in your life all the time. Even when you're like, well, I don't know. Oh my gosh. And you thought, okay, I have the best question for you.

Who's your certain person? 'cause I just had this thought, like in my [00:37:00] life I was a social worker, like I graduated from BYU to do that. I worked at the homeless shelter and I had a bishop in a singles ward who came up to me after I'd been working at the homeless shelter for two years, and he said, you should take the seminary.

Classes up at the University of Utah and be a seminary teacher. And I was like, that's ridiculous. 'cause I grew up in Missouri and I said I didn't like seminary when I was in it. Like I would never teach seminary 'cause it was early morning. Oh yeah. And he goes, just think about it. And I did. And I signed up for the classes and it changed my life.

That one certain man who just suggested if he hadn't followed the spirit to make that suggestion, my whole life would be different. Wow. Do you have a certain person in your life? That's a profound question. I think I have a few big hinge moments. Yeah. In my life I had a couple of really great seminar teachers, but one, Elizabeth Keeler and she lived to California and she always made me feel really good at scriptures and, and reading things and being insightful.

And then here I am with the career inciting scriptures. But if Elizabeth Keeler in my early morning seminar class hadn't been quite descriptor ourselves and a woman. [00:38:00] Who felt made me feel excited and encouraged as opposed to, you know, nerdy and different than the other kids. And, you know, I'm sure I was a little bit arrogant and goofy and she never said, you know, shut it.

Yeah. It was like, I have another thought. I have another thought. And so she made me always feel encouraged that that was a strength. And so thank you. Elizabeth Taylor. Absolutely. But yeah. Well, that's a great story. Thanks. So I have another question for you then. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna ask it in the next segment, because in this story, it's interesting.

The certain man changes the trajectory of Joseph's experience. His brothers find him, and then there's a certain play on words that I really like that you pointed out, because the direction that the brothers threw him in the descent down into the pit, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Has everything to do sometimes with our success.

So we'll talk about that next.

Segment 4

Lori, you had another hinge moment and here's the one I wanna know about. Mm-hmm. What's your hinge moment for actually going back to school? [00:39:00] When you did, because how many years did it take you? How old were you? I can't even believe it. Yeah, I was in my forties. I'm in my fifties now. Sorry, everybody. I'm old.

My students might be shocked, but they dressed like a 10-year-old with, you know, sweatshirts. But I. I think I was a pretty successful business person. You know, I had gone up into vice presidency. I was a director at a Fortune 50 company. I'd done all those things, and so I felt like I had climbed the corporate ladder and I was like, here I am.

I have done it as an American, I have, you know, success. Here I am. Yeah. Your peak, you're, you're high. Love it. Okay. Yep. I'm with the Fortune 50 company. I have a directorship, you know, titles and. Things. And I'm like, yeah. And one day, and I know I've told this story before, but I was driving to work. And I was stuck in traffic and I was just having one of those prayers.

And unlike some people who are really powerful prayers, I have a few prayers in my life that really stand out and this is one of them. And surprisingly, it's in the [00:40:00] seat of my car as I'm commuting to work. And I said, Lord, is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Like, is this my life? I've made it, but why does it just feel like I'm just doing stuff and it's on repeat?

You know how road gets on repeat. I show up every day, go to work, go to the next day, and the Lord just. Spoke really clearly and said, well, what are you good at? And I was like, well, and in an instant I thought of all these things, you know, that I was mostly hobbies, right? That we do in our middle age. So you're like triathlon and dirt bikes and you know, business and stuff like that.

And I was like, I'm not good at, I'm not really good at any of those things. And so I was like, well, and then I was like, well, this is gonna sound really arrogant, but you know what? I'm really good. Or I really like reading scriptures. That's my favorite thing. Yeah. And the Lord's like, yeah, come follow me.

Wow. And I went back to school and I did not know, I kind of had an inkling that it would go this direction, but I didn't really know where all of this was going. So then I loved Hebrew and well testament. So [00:41:00] I signed up to go to school again and again, not with like, I'll go get a PhD. I was like, I'll just go back and take some online courses.

Mm-hmm. And I really like Hebrew, so I'm gonna go do it. This famous Hebrew place, it happens to be an evangelical school. And I really liked these, if you ever see the Bible project online. And so I really liked those guys and so Love it. Yeah. So I was like, oh, go there. Right? Like I'll just again. What are you good at?

What do you love? And I was like, well, I love that. And I'm just gonna go do that first step. And where's like, awesome. Go do that. Hmm. Here's what I love about your story is that you're at the peak, you're at the height like this is. Mm-hmm. So awesome. And then you start over where it almost feels like a wah at 40.

Mm-hmm. And it's not a quick two year turnaround. You're gonna do this for 10 years. You're gonna climb your way back up. Mm-hmm. And find out what that looks like. And one of the things that stood out to me about this story is your story and then the story of Joseph where he gets thrown into the pit.

Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I love that you wrote is Descent becomes the [00:42:00] workshop of character. I love that connection to this idea where if you feel like you have fallen or if you feel like. Starting over or whatever, like that's okay. I love this idea that descent is the workshop of character because he got thrown into a pit that descent is now gonna build his character.

So talk to me about that in the scriptures that you wanted us to look at. I thought that was so profound. Yeah, so it's kind of the, just the story goes like a V. So he's up on the high point and he is like, I can have incisions and my father's blessing me, and I have this coat and everything's great. And then it just goes down, down and it keeps going down.

I like that connection to the letter. Life is like a V. That's awesome. He was like, yeah, and, and I'm sure he's like, okay, this is the worst being sold by my brothers. Worst thing ever. And you're like, Hmm, sorry. Just wait. And then, and then it's like, okay, now you're a slave and you finally like work up in the thing and you're like, Nope.

Accused of sexual assault. Okay, great. And now you're thrown into a literal cistern, right? A hollowed out place. It should be water and life. And [00:43:00] said it's dark. It's empty, it's confining, it's silent, it's death. And I just think not everybody has to go go that far, but I think in our lives we always go, but I feel like I would be blessed if the Lord was blessing me.

I would have all these great things in my life. And then why is this happening to me? And everyone's thinking of their terrible things right now, and you're hoping that the V doesn't keep sliding down. You're like, I would be cool if it changed directions. Now, Lord, I'm ready. I've learned what I needed.

But in those spaces, Joseph. He is learning everything he needs to know so he doesn't just go into the pit, right? He's in this pit of the betrayal of his family, the rejection of, you know, poter of the family fracture, of the loss of ice identity, and everything slows down. And there's this line, Tammy, the pit was empty.

He goes down into the pit and you're like, and I'm down here with nothing. Yeah. I think we've all been, [00:44:00] you know, we're more than seven years old. We've all been in that pit where you're like, what am I doing down here, Lord, and where are you and how far? Why am I so alone? And so that's why the Joseph story to me is just the best story to go.

And the Lord was with Joseph. Yeah. That he's down there going, what's gonna happen? And so we take, we are on that slide with them and, and maybe our lives aren't so terrible, but part of me says, well, wait a minute. What's gonna happen next year? Yeah. In fact, let's look at the verses where it says that the Lord was with Joseph.

Let's just make sure we mark those in our scriptures so everyone can see that. 'cause we keep bringing it up. Yeah. And then we're gonna go into another storyline where, again, I love the idea of the V, but let's go to Genesis chapter 39. Mm-hmm. And you're gonna wanna mark verses two and three. That's where it says, and I'll read this.

And his master saw that the Lord was with him, and that the Lord made all that he did to prosper in his hand. So there we have, the Lord [00:45:00] is with Joseph. Yep. You're gonna read it again in verse 21. But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison, and you're gonna see it again in verse 23.

The keeper of the prison looked not to anything that was under his hand because the Lord was with him. I love that. And that which he did, the Lord made it to prosper. And so we have these awesome connections to the Lord is being with Joseph. I love the idea of this V. So he is at the pit. His brothers are at their own, I would say you would think their own emotional pit and just who they are as people.

That's a pretty low pit. Then you all of a sudden, and I think it's interesting, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. They just kind of throw in chapter 38. Like, let's talk about the messy house of Jacob, right? The house of Jacob. Pretty messy. And now this almost seems like the pit for the house of Jacob is the storyline in chapter 38.

Talk to us a little bit about that. Why do you think it's there? I wanna go back to something though. Okay. That your readers will appreciate because of our beloved President Nelson. But in that Oh, perfect. In 39, [00:46:00] 21, read me back to what you said about it in English. Do you have Genesis 39 21. But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Yeah. So, and the Lord was with Joseph and he gave him, what was the word? Favor. Oh yes, it's Hesed. Hassad. It is hassad, isn't it? It's Hassad. Covenantal hassad. Yeah. So it it love it, right? And so if you haven't done your Hesed word study, this is your prompting to go do that. But it's reminding us that the Lord is coed with us to be with him.

And if I had to replace. A word for covenant because it's such a powerful word. I would say relationship. Mm. The Lord, right is in this bound relationship that he'll never leave us. So even those, these things are happening, right? It's not just the Lord showed him favor, the Lord showed him, has said, yeah.

And then the V starts to turn and so you're like, oh, right. And so when, that's awesome, right [00:47:00] then, right? Because you written my brain. Yes, it does. Yes. Come on, put that in your scriptures. Oh, I am for sure. I love that you pointed that out, that that word is Hess said. Awesome. That is, and that's when the V starts to go back up.

Things start to turn for Joseph. Almost like that reminder, like, I've got you. Yeah. The covenantal relationship. I love you. I, we've talked about that on this podcast. It's such a great word. And when you remember that things get better. Yeah. And it's right around there. Right. He's at the bottom and it's empty.

Right. And then he's gonna come back up. And so, but when we're at our lowest, when we're at the emptiest darkest pit, when everything is like, it can't get worse than everything that's happened to him. And it really can't at this point. Right. There's almost nothing else they can do to him. And then it's like, and the Lord.

With them and the Lord showed him heaven. Ah, okay. Right there. Bam. Bam. Awesome. Thank you. And goodnight. Okay, wait a minute though. 'cause now this is so cool when you think about that covenantal love and relationship, because the chapter before is [00:48:00] 38, where you think, ah, it's so bad. And yet out of chapter 38 springs the genealogical line of Jesus Christ.

Yeah. And the covenant maker. There's so much going on and it's so cool. Okay, so can, can we talk about 38 time? Let's talk about 38. Yep. So, love that. Like you just talked about, hes said, but you have 38, which you read it and you're like, Ugh. It's a terrible story. Is it? Yeah. So, okay, here's the thing. Maybe not for every K follow me study with young children.

It's the Judah and Tamara story, as you already know. So just adult required. So Juah and Tamar, super fast. You already know the story, but let me do a setup for this, please. You're in the middle of the Joseph story. And you're like, things are moving along. And then it's like blip. There's this weird chapter about Juah and Tamar, and then blip, you go out of it.

And so scholars have often, there's been all kinds of debates. This shouldn't be here, they just jammed it in here, et cetera. But it will follow the same beat for beat parts of the story that the second half of the [00:49:00] Josa story are gonna follow. Yes, the V. The V. And will Judah be redeemed? Will he learn what he's supposed to do and you know what's gonna happen, right?

So Judah goes off and he has a daughter-in-law, and then after catastrophe, after catastrophe, her husband dies. And then in those days, you know, the, everything was the financial security of the woman came from the husband. Right? Right. They couldn't really get a job or whatever. So it was their responsibility there.

Legal responsibility to take care of Tamar. Mm-hmm. And so Tamar's husband, Judah's son dies, and then it goes through the next one, and then he dies and then no children. And so no one to help support. And there's a third son and Judah's like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And kind of ignores it and you go, uh oh. And remember Judah was the kid that basically is like, get rid of Joseph.

Right? Get rid of Joseph. We should kill him. And then he's gonna come back at the end. Spoiler alert. And we're gonna see if Judah has grown up as well. So this is, the [00:50:00] screen moves to this other story because it's gonna come back in the middle. You know, they're all gonna come back together, but he keeps this third son back and you're like, oh, it's that Judah.

Like, is he ever gonna learn that he should be doing what he's supposed to? Yeah. Or Tamar, right? You're who's gonna take care of tomorrow. It's his legal responsibility in those days. So he is failing at his Covenant family obligation, and he failed with Joseph, kill him, and now he's like, nah, it's not my problem.

But my daughter-in-law doesn't have a husband. Too bad. And so she's like, well. So many great matriarchs. It's like, well, I'm gonna go make that happen. So she, I'm gonna divinely orchestrate things to turn out in my favor. Yeah. This reminds me of Rebecca. Okay, if you're not gonna do it, then I know how this is supposed to go.

I'll make it happen. And this is the story, right? So he goes to this crossroads and she puts a veil of her face and says that she's a prostitute and Judah is going to the sheep sharing. And so it's like, I'm go, you know, like you do. And so you go to the sheep sharing and there's like, oh my gosh. I must sleep with this woman.

Right. You know? So he's just like, you're like, who is this guy? [00:51:00] And she's like, well, all right, well, what will you give me for payment? And he says, well, I don't have anything. So he goes, great. Gimme your credit card, your wallet, and your social security card. Yeah. He's like, okay. Pretty much whatever it takes.

Whatever it takes. Right. And there's more to this story. We tell a different day, and then they sleep together. She becomes pregnant a few months later, the villagers. Oh. There's a goat. And so there's a goat. There's a goat, the deception. So then he is like, Hey, by the way, you gotta take this goat so I can get my wallet back.

They go, his buddy takes the goat and she's nowhere to be found. And everyone says, by the way, there's never any prostitutes here. And you're like, right. So who was this person that he's slept with? And then we know who it is. And then, uh, a few months later, she's. And the town's like, Hey, you, uh, your daughter-in-law's pregnant and we all know her husband have died.

She's a widow. And so he says, burn her. Like what? Judah is so naughty and broken. So broken. Yeah. But you know, even then if she doesn't talk to her, he doesn't do whatever, [00:52:00] and then she sends up the credit card ID and says, it's the. Person who's responsible. And his line, lemme see if I can find it, says She is more righteous than me.

Yep. The man she says. So she sends up his stuff, send her out to be burned by the man to whom these belong. I'm pregnant. And please identifying against his Cigna, his coordinate staff, his authority, right, his covenant, they're all have reminders of his covenant responsibility. And then Judah identified this, and this is the line.

Verse 26. Verse 26, okay. He is more righteous than I. Yeah. And not only that, but what are the blessings of the covenant family? And so she has twins. Yep. So if you're wondering, she was tricky. And they have to be, you know, they have to be tricky. It's like she. She just like, oh no, she, uh, I should have taken care of her.

Right? And so this family, she, I should have taken her to wife or I should have done something. And so that is my covenant responsibility and I didn't [00:53:00] do it. So she is more righteous. And if you were questioning if she was, the Lord blesses her with twins, so just so you go. Yep. She was. And so then she has the two kids, and so you're like, yep.

And his name, the one of the name is called Ra. And Zara is the same word, at least the rhyming with Zara, which means seed or offspring. So it's a hint of who's coming. So Tammy, who is coming out of this family line, who's coming from the seed, I just love it. 'cause in 29 you have the other brother, the son who's Phez.

Mm-hmm. And you cross-reference that to Ruth, chapter four, verse 18. Mm-hmm. Which is the line of Jesus Christ. And then you cross-reference that to Matthew chapter one, verse three. Yeah. So it's through Pharaohs that we get the genealogical line of Jesus Christ. So when you read Tamar. Yep. Now you know the storyline.

Talk about V of all vs. This is, yeah, yeah. It's going down, but oh, going down. And then it came up with Jesus Christ. Correct. It comes up with Jesus Christ and they're like gonna even remind you with their names. Right? This is the seed. This is the Oscar. Love it. This is the family. This, this is the the [00:54:00] family.

The Lord is still with this family because he is covenant to help them. But Judah, it's kind of giving us a hint that the kid that wanted to kill his brother. It's gonna now come back and we're gonna see what will Judah do now? That's not gonna be this week, but next week, right? Yeah. Will Judah have learned his lesson too?

So the pacing in those steps of Judah learning are exactly happening in chapter 38 that are gonna happen in the second half of the Joseph story. So it isn't this weird insert. So cool. It's teaching you the story again, and then you're like, oh, you know, he is more righteous than I. Oh, Lori, thank you for telling us that story.

Yep. There you go. I loved it. You did it perfectly. So thank you. Thank you, thank you. Okay, so then in the next segment, we're gonna then talk about a training program for when you're called to a calling. Wouldn't that be nice? We'll do that next.

Segment 5

[00:55:00] How awesome would it be to have like a training program for when you're called to a calling, like, sign me up. Right. Don't we love it? We're just like, good luck. Here's the manual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the counselors, everyone who knew what was going on before. Yeah. Also. Dismissed. And so good luck. Do a great job.

Right? Yeah. There's no like, um, what do we call it? Some kind of like a transition or we're doing some kind of training module. Yes, yes. In fact, I remember one time I, I had a job like that and there was no sit down where we did like a knowledge transfer. That's what is a knowledge transfer meeting. Like here's all this stuff you might wanna know.

No, it's just like good luck. Mm-hmm. I just served with young women for the last four years and I know all their issues, but. You'll, you'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. A whole new crew. Right? Right. Whole new crew. And you're like, I have no footing. I have no idea what I'm doing here. And I think we all dread going, is this person called to be in a learning experience for them?

'cause we never, you know, we don't want that. And then you're like, even worse, I hope it's not me, it's party. Right. I like, oh no, I don't wanna be that one. But we're always in that and Joseph [00:56:00] seems to be in that, right? Yeah. So talk to us about that, because we went from Joseph saying, let me tell you what I dreamt to a whole new scenario in Genesis 41.

So give us that. Yeah, let's go over to, uh, Genesis 40, verse eight. Okay. There's just these little verses just fly by so fast that you miss them. So at this point, Joseph's down in the pit and he's got those other two prisoners and they're big wigs, right? They're the people that are responsible to test of Pharaoh.

The king is going to be poisoned, right? So once the cup base and one's the baker. So, so these are really critical roles. Um, and so, but they both get thrown into prison. So they're down there, there's Joseph, and then these two guys show up, right? And so then, um, they each, this one night, they each have a dream, and so they come to Joseph and they're like, uh, you know, there's this dream.

So jump, jump ahead, you know the story, but jump ahead to mm-hmm. Verse eight. Do you have that 40? I do. I love it. Okay. Read it. State says, and they said unto him, we have dreamed a dream and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, do not interpretations belong to [00:57:00] God. Tell me them. I pray you.

Yeah. Which is, if you think about the first, the very first introduction, he is like, Hey everyone, I had a dream and I can't wait to tell you about them. Right, right. And how did that go? Right. And even Jacob Israel is like, I'm gonna hold that in my heart. 'cause something's going on there. Right? Yeah. Um, and so we're like, so we see in just that line to me a pivot where he's like, Hey.

Uh, it's not me that's interpreting these, and I've learned that this can, yeah, I like that. You know, spirituality and, and these different things. We need to really look to the Lord. I, I don't just come tell my family everything. Now, of course, you can tell your, you should be able to tell your family your spiritual things, but in this story, he wasn't mature enough with his spiritual readiness.

And here it seems to me that he's like, Hey, don't interpretations. Belong to God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But just tell 'em to me and we'll ask God what they mean. Yeah. And we'll ask, and they're like, okay, right? And they're like, I can't wait to tell you my crazy story. [00:58:00] And so they do. But that little line to me was really powerful and, and in my own life where I think are there times when I'm going back to my own skillset where I'm thinking I can do it all?

Or have I learned the lesson? Maybe this is for somebody else. Maybe I was supposed to turn to the Lord here. So we see that formation, that spiritual progression in Joseph, um, it's, it's changed. He's not the same kid he was. No running out to the field. That's cool. Oh, so cool. That is so cool. Well, then you get into chapter 41, allegedly two years later, and Pharaoh has a dream.

And now you've got people saying, there's a guy that can interpret dreams. So I love that they, they recognized his spiritual gift, not even knowing it was a spiritual gift, but they're like, there's somebody that could help you. And I love that he lives two ears. The poor guy like right, because the Lord said, well next week.

Right. They go and say, oh, by the way, Pharaoh had a dream. He's two more years down there, two more years, and you're like, two more years in that descent. We've gotta [00:59:00] bring up that side of the V. Things have got to start to get better. Right? Yeah. You're like, poor Joe, so come on, this guy deserves a break at this point.

Mm-hmm. But you know what? He's never complaining. Mm-hmm. He's like all. And, and we're meeting a different Joseph and we know that he is going to skyrocket. He is going to be the number two basically in the world. Yeah, right. This is Egypt. The most powerful of all nations. If, if we we're not sure which Egyptian kingdom this is, but there's a time at which.

There are all these famines, right? And so, and there's Egyptians and they, they talk about all these immigrants coming because it's because of the Nile. It's the only place that's growing food. And they talk about 'em coming as like ants, right? And just locus, all these immigrants coming. And they're like, what do we do with these people?

And so think about it in that Mediterranean world, this is, this it. So he's not, is this V My point is. There were so many people that Egypt was probably the tippy top. This was the superpower of the day. And Joseph is going to be the number two [01:00:00] of the world. And you're like, I just, you know, if you're sitting in the pit or you're like, well, I wonder one day if I will rule the universe.

And, uh, and you, I had that dream about everyone bowing to me, but I don't see how that's happening. Yeah. And he's just patient. But we're like, well, we already know. We've seen the dream. We believe in it. Where is he gonna end? And how in the world does he get there? And now the V changed skiers right now we started to go back up the other side.

Let's mark those verses where he goes back up the other side that's in chapter 41. And then you can just kind of mark off versus 38 through 42, I guess. Yeah. 'cause that's where that that happens. Yeah. And he gets married. He gets married. That's good. And he has two children. Verse 51 and 52. Manasa. And those are gonna be important, son.

A little part of that. V We're part of that V then you see us in it. Oh yeah. We're part [01:01:00] of the, uh, the blessing, you know. Thanks Joseph for waiting for us. And you did have a really cool nerd moment in chapter 41, which I love. Tell us about verse 14. This is fun for people reading scriptures because when Pharaoh sent for Joseph, he called Joseph and they brought him hastily out of the dungeon and he shaved himself and changed his Raymond and came in onto Pharaoh, and you could read that as he made himself look nice.

But there's some symbolism in that. Tell us what that means for Egyptians. Yeah. Yeah, for Egyptians. Um, so if you're Hebrew, you grow your beard, right? We've all seen the pictures and so there's like growing the beard and don't cut your locks and do all these things. So they tend to be kind of furry. But in pharaoh's court, the Egyptian court customs are you shave.

So you have to be kind of clean shaven and, and you know, even if you've seen, you know, the Yu Brenner movies, they try to kind of tie into that. I don't know how historical that is, but that's not, that's actually accurate, that piece. So they shave him so that the, the Egyptian court custom. So coming out of prison, you're all shaggy and you've been down there and like Rah.

But he comes up to the Egypt and they [01:02:00] shave him. And I love that little addition 'cause man, that feels real. Yeah, we are back in that ancient time and you're like coming to see the king, coming to see the Pharaoh and he would require you to, you know, get cleaned up and shaved before you got here. And it makes me feel like he's a kid again.

A little bit too, you know, like he's not a man. We're remembering that, but he is following the court rules, so it makes the story real. Wow. I think that's cool. And then tell us the significance of verse 42. So then Joseph does, he rises to heights. He's, he's taking over in verse 41, Pharaoh says unto Joseph, I've set the over all the land of Egypt.

And then 42 and Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand. Tell us about the significance of that. Yeah, so the rings right are that where they have the authority, the signe, the real, the seal. And uh, remember we just read about Judah and Tamar and he'd given Tamar his signet and his seal. And so here he's getting all of his authority.

So all the authority of Pharaoh, he's giving it to him. Sometimes you'll see it [01:03:00] in more modern, like in England, they have a chain that they wear around their neck, right? And so it's like, this is my authority. We saw it with his robe. I was given the robe, and here the same thing is happening. I'm handing it, I've set you.

He says, I've set you over all the land of Egypt. Insert here, everywhere that mattered in the world. You are in charge of everything. Yeah. And then he even rides around. They clo him in garments of linen. They put the gold chain around his neck. So it's gonna smack of his dream, but it's also gonna smack of Judah.

Judah gave this stuff away to Tamar. Oh, I like that connection. And then here it's coming back. But even more so this is from Pharaoh, and remember, Pharaoh doesn't have a name. And so a lot of times when stories don't, when they don't give you a name like that, they make a couple things. One universal. This is a person that we could see in our day.

Mm-hmm. This is the king, this is the ruler, this is the prime minister, the president, but also so that we see them, we, we enter the story. There's a space [01:04:00] for us to enter the story. This isn't just some historical person, this is our story, so they're just. Pharaoh, right? Yeah. They're not Bill, they're not Pharaoh Rameys, right?

Yeah. Because then you're like, oh, that guy. That's not my story. That's just an old thing. And then everyone gets into historical thing. You're like, no, you guys are supposed to be putting ourselves into the story. So Pharaoh takes the ring from his hand and he puts it on Joseph's hand. Yeah. Now I don't know Egyptian customs, but I'm pretty sure the king wasn't touching people.

Right. He gives it to someone else, but he puts it on his hand and he clothed him in garments and fine linen and he puts the gold chain around him and then he rode around with him second in his chariot. So everyone knew. Right? Yeah. So talk about going up the other side. Oh, absolutely. But it reminds us of events in our lives where the Lord, I.

Gives us our identity, and he entrons us and he gives us a robe and a name and a title, and he rides around next to us and says, this is my child. This is [01:05:00] my second in command. Oh, that's beautiful. Oh my goodness. Okay. Then here's what we wanna do in chapter 41, next to verse 42. Everyone just write Esther.

So you'll see that again with a ring, so then you can make that connection. But Lori, I love the way you ended that, where the savior does the very same thing for us and that's, that's where we come up, that side of the V. And so the way that we come up to the top of the side of, 'cause Joseph does, and then we have the famine in chapter 41, verse 55, when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread and Pharaoh said unto the Egyptians, go to Joseph.

What he sayeth you. To you do so height, the height that he could possibly get to. And so in the next segment, what we wanna do is we're gonna talk about how to go for, how to go, how you go from being in the V to the pit and back out by enduring one specific thing. And we'll talk about that [01:06:00] next.

Segment 6

Turn to Genesis chapter 41, verse 46, so that we can all appreciate how much time Joseph has spent away from his family. Verse 46 says, Joseph was 30 years old and he stood before Pharaoh, king of Egypt. Now, let's think about this for a minute. 17-year-old boy thrown into the pit. Now he's 30. That's a lot of time, that's a lot of growth.

That spans when I think of me from 17 to 30. Holy cow. Yeah. Lot of growth. It's an entire adult life. Yes. Because 17, I know 17 year olds think like they've got it figured out. But the rest of us who are past 17 know that at 17 I had only been like aware for a couple of years. Right. I didn't even know. So this is his like entire adult life, um, that he spent.

In the pit, in the downside, you know, sliding in the down. Yeah. Down sliding down, down downtown. And you're like, finally, because we always, I think, we always think, Tammy, at least I, I always hope that the turnaround is gonna be fast. Right. [01:07:00] You know, weeks or days. And this is like, you know, forever his entire life.

He's totally, he's in that, that long, dark middle. Of, of learning, and we always praise him. Yay. He made it on the other side. But the story doesn't take place in that part. The story takes place in the long, dark middle, and that's the phrase I love that you sent to me because this idea of, I. The Lord's protection that the Lord's ability for us to help us get out of that V.

That point right there has everything to do with enduring the long middle. It's earned by the long middle. And so you can see Joseph's storyline, how he earned this point of being next in command to. Pharaoh by enduring the long middle. So talk to me about that and what do you mean by the long middle? Do you have a long middle story in your own life where you, because like you said, when we're going through things, we're thinking this will last a year.

Surely this won't last longer than a couple of months, but there's a lot of people listening who are in their long middle now, and Joseph's that's 17 to 30. That's a [01:08:00] long, long middle. Takes a long time. Uh, I, I, I dunno that I have a, a, I have a couple dark middles, Tammy, but I, I, I, there's one that. Or two that jump out.

And I don't love sharing those stories 'cause I'm not, I don't like to be vulnerable and sad. But there's, there's one story I think. That resonates with most people is that I'm, I'm single. I'm still single. Right. Yeah. And, and in our culture, especially latter day saint culture, it's like, what's wrong with you?

Mm-hmm. And it's always the first thing that's defined. I mean, you go to a singles ward and you're like, I love being defined by that thing. Right? Yeah. Um, why can't that be defined by like the young professional ward? Or the spiritually astute ward, um, or something like that. No, you're like, oh, you guys are doing it wrong.

We ought to put all you losers together and maybe you'll get married or something and you're like, oh, um, do you remember when it was called the Special Interest Ward? Oh my God, I'm not even kidding you. I got kicked outta the singles ward 'cause I was 31 and they're [01:09:00] like, you're too old now. And the next level, it really was called the Special Interest Ward.

And I went to that and I'm like, I'm out. I'm going to a family ward. Yeah, I starting into a family ward too, because I also was like, I didn't want my identity to be about my singleness. 'cause to me it wasn't right. And so, Lord love them. I'm glad we have those programs. So it's not that, but there's, there's.

We all feel like we don't fit in, in our LDS culture somewhere. Maybe we grew up in a country that isn't the Wasatch front. Right? Or maybe we aren't as good at baking cookies and singing songs, and maybe we aren't scripturally students speak Hebrew and do all these things. Right. There's just, there's something that we all do that I, I swear every friend of mine's like, I just don't feel like I fit in.

And I'm like, you don't feel like you fit in. And so you're like, oh, I'm in trouble then. Right. Because I ride dirt bikes and, and drink energy drinks. Right. So I don't fit in at all. And, and I'm single and, and that one you can't hide. Yeah. But there are other instances that Do I wanna share one other story.

So [01:10:00] recently, in the last year or so, I was teaching about great opportunity to teach at the Utah State Correctional Facility, the prison, and talking to some of the men there. And they are amazing, some really amazing souls that are really trying to get back. And they were saying, well, what's the hardest part?

And one of the guys said. Well, if you can imagine your entire life being around the worst 30-second decision you ever made. Hmm. That's what it's like here. And everyone makes bad decisions and they're never trying to excuse what they do, but what they did. But they're saying, but everyone else, it's, it's either a secret or they aren't defined by it.

But for me, he was like, I will always be defined by the worst 30-second decision I ever made. Yeah. I can never get rid of it. And, and so. I, I think we have those long, dark medals, but I think that we have things that we hide from people. We have harm and injury. We have things that we're, that we just go, it doesn't seem like other people have those things, [01:11:00] right?

I go to sacrament meeting and everyone seems so perfect and awesome, drive their Tesla and have perfect kids and bake cookies and sing songs, and you're like, I'm not like that. And then we realize we're all that person. We're all the broken, naughty person that Judah and his brothers are, right. We're like, well, I'm sometimes relating more to them, and so these stories are for us because we're those people.

Yeah. Tell me this, from your experience in your life, what's something specific, 'cause I know there's probably many answers, but I'd love to know just one thing. What's one specific thing that Lori Denning does? To get through, to bite her time in the long, dark middle, because I'm imagining Joseph in prison.

Mm-hmm. And all that time by himself in this dark cell alone. And what he, what was he doing during that time to just live through it, hoping that it would end at some point. Mm-hmm. I'd love to know what one specific thing do you do that helps you during your long middle? Um, one for me and [01:12:00] it would be easy for me to say scripture study 'cause it's my go-to, right?

Yeah. I mean, I've spent a lifetime studying scriptures, but one that I love is music. I, I love music and it doesn't matter if it's timms or, or whatever doing, but there's something about that that feels the most raw, the most open, the most connected to God, the most. Like a prayer. Mm-hmm. Is music. And I think everyone loves music.

And whatever style you like, it works. And so I think there are times when you're like, it's only here that I'm in the pit and that the Lord can hear me. And I'm not good at expressing that, but this song does. This hymn, does this drive in the car with a turn to 10? You know, and me belting it out with the wrong tune is I can complain and cry and lament and praise and pray.

And a lot of times the music I'm listening to may not be in the hymn book. Right. Uh, I, I do with church music, but I think sometimes you're like, this is the song that I [01:13:00] raised to the Lord. This is it. And this is, he's in the pit with me and he's singing harmony. Mm-hmm. Right. He's just right alongside. I love that.

He's singing harmony. He's the desk camp. So, um, yeah. But I, I think, I think we all know the power of music. Yeah. And uh, and I think that's where I feel the most, I feel him the most. You know, I'm going back to the point that you pointed out to us, which I loved in this discussion, was again, that v where if things were good for Joseph, then he finds himself in the pit from his brothers and he is gonna, but then he kind of, there's like a little V where he, he then rises to the occasion with Poter and Pot's house, and then he gets thrown into prison.

Maybe we're talking about a W here, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Multiple vs. In his life. But he's at his high where he's then thinking, life is great. I, I am like right next to pot where things are good. He has the experience with Potiphar's wife. He gets thrown into prison and I'm sure he thinks this will all get worked out in a couple of days.

Like it's just, he said, she's like, misunderstanding. [01:14:00] Misunderstanding. We'll figure this out. Poter loves me. He knows Yes, exactly. He knows I'm a good person. He still good. All the other servants have seen what's going on right now. Be vindicated in a matter of hours. This can't happen again to me. This is gonna be so easy to fix Boer.

Let's just talk, and I think it's fascinating. Then you go into Genesis 39 21, but the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy and gave him hassed in the sight of the keeper of the prison. Like the Lord's like, I'm not gonna fix this for you. You're gonna do some time, and here's what I'm gonna do for you.

While you're in there, I will remind you of my covenant relationship with you. So I think that's beautiful how maybe when we're in that point of the V in the long, dark middle, in the hardest times of our life, it's important to remember, okay, but God, like he's covenanted with me to love me and help me through this.

Okay. I don't know what that's gonna look like. Oh, Tammy, he's right. He's sitting right with him. Yeah. He, he's not like, good luck. Right. Good luck. You'll work it out. He, he says the Lord was with him, so [01:15:00] I almost imagine him sitting on the floor with him. Like, okay, let's, let's bite our time together. Like I'm, I'm not gonna leave you.

I'm not gonna leave you. You've got some stuff to learn and I didn't make this happen and it's, you'll get through it. But I am never just like, good luck. Right. He's sitting there, the Lord was with him. Yeah. I love. I love that you had us mark that. That word is so important. Hess said, study it. I love how you encourage us, make that our study.

Absolutely. Because it's through, it's significant throughout the Old Testament and it's here. I love that. It's in the story of Joseph, the longest storyline we have in the Old Testament, and there's many references to Hess said, so, wow. Lori, thank you. Thank you for pointing out, thanks for taking the time to have this discussion.

We're done. It was great. Thanks everybody. That was so awesome. Okay, so we kind of wrapped it up a little bit, but at the end of every episode, I always ask my guests, is there a eternal truth or a takeaway that you have? And I'll tell you what mine is. I love that we've just talked about this idea that life is like a v that's consistently [01:16:00] been.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And when we're at that lowest point of the V, there is hesed there. The guarantee of Hesed for every one of us who are naughty and broken, like it's just, that is like, you just define my life. Naughty and broken. Naughty and broken. All of us are. And, and the house of Israel is the naughtiest and the most broken.

And I love how you pointed out that Hess said still resides. It still exists with these people. Yeah, I think there's something powerful to say that even when we're the naughtiest and the most broken, or the mis misunderstood or in the pit, or falsely accused, or maybe we're Judah, right? Mm-hmm. Then we did it to ourselves, which is probably common too.

The Lord's like, but I am with you. In fact, one of my most powerful parts of this story is that it isn't a bunch of angels showing up. It isn't light from heaven and pillars and, and, you know, miraculous walls of water and the Red Sea go to the side. It's a certain man that points to him. Mm-hmm. And it's the Lord was with him.

And if you don't look at the story, you don't maybe see it. [01:17:00] And so you're like, when I'm down in the pit or I'm in the W or things are going poorly, even if I did it to myself, yeah, I think, but the Lord isn't gonna be with me. He's not gonna love me. He's with those other people. You know those blessed people.

And that's not what the story is about. The story is like he was with him the whole time. Yeah. And that's how I said, that's covenant love. That's love that says, I will never leave you. And even if you don't understand it, and even if you don't deserve it, and even if you do deserve it, I will never leave you and wait until you see what's on the other side.

I, I love that so much, Lori, because I just had this image of Joseph being thrown into prison and thinking maybe the first thing he did was pray like, oh boy, help me through this. You know, when my daughter, so I, I married a widower and the 9-year-old when her mom died, she was like, I'm never gonna pray again.

Because God does not hear my prayers. There's no [01:18:00] way. And I'm applying that now to this sweet Joseph who would've been young when his mom died, you know, a teenager probably. And here he is having this experience. And I wonder if in that moment in prison, he's like, wow. Well, I prayed that my mom wouldn't die.

And she did. I prayed in the pit that my brothers would get me out and they didn't. Now here I am. Heavenly Father, I, I'd like to think that he, the reason that the Lord was like, I'm with you, I'm ex I'm giving you has said is because maybe he did in a brief moment, just say a quick little prayer. Like, not sure if this is gonna help, but I really hope it does.

And again, going back to the Lord's like, I'm not gonna get you out either. But I'll be here with you. And I think he's with us in all of those v moments and certainly is with my daughter. I mean it, and it did, it took her many, many years. I, I, I remember when she decided to go on a mission, which was so crazy 'cause she didn't wanna go and we didn't know if she'd go.

And it wasn't until she got her mission called that she then blurted out, I know God lives and loves me because she prayed so hard that she would go to the, that she wouldn't go foreign. Like that was her thing. I don't wanna go foreign. I only wanna go stateside. I don't wanna learn a language. And she's brilliant.

Like she [01:19:00] could do all of that, but that was her thing. She didn't wanna be far away from home. And when she read where she was going, she sobbed and said, I know God lives. Like she came up outta that V finally, but that took eight, 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. But he does it. He gets us out of our Vs. He does it And, and I love that he says, and I was with you when it was down.

Yeah. I didn't say, well pull, you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Right? He's like, that's okay. I am, I'm with you the whole time. Even sometimes when you don't feel it or you're not sure how to recognize it, he's like, that's okay. Right. Yeah. We'll get through it. And, um, yeah, I'm not leaving and, and I think our spiritual gifts in Joseph's case, he doesn't ever abandon his spiritual gift.

He, he understands it more. And I wonder if the message of Joseph isn't a little bit like the spiritual gifts that you have. That's how you recognize that he's with you all along. Oh wow. Very cool. I think you're right. Lori Denning, you were awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. So everyone listening, go join our group on Facebook or [01:20:00] follow us on Instagram and share what you have learned.

And then throughout the week, some point we're gonna ask a question from this discussion. Here's my question. What I wanna know is what calling in the church do you think we could use training for? Is there a calling you had that you wish somebody would've helped you figure out? Comment on the poster relates to this lesson and share your thoughts that you can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/SundayonMonday and go there anyway, because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret bookshelf plus. Brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study group participant was Lori Denning. And you can find more information about my friend at ldsliving.com/SundayonMonday

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember that God is with you because you are his favorite.