Season 4 Ep. 36

Tammy Uzelac Hall 0:00

If you can remember from way back in the 90s, there was a comedy skit called "Coffee Talk." Now, at some point in the show, the host would become very emotional and say, "I'm feeling a little verklempt; talk amongst yourselves, I'll give you a topic." And then the host would offer the most contemplative topic and say to the audience, "Discuss." In just that accent. Now, the reason I bring this up is because as I was studying and preparing for this week's Come, Follow Me lesson, the good saints of Corinth had lost their way and Paul was feeling a little verklempt. In First Corinthians 8-13, Paul sets up a gospel topic, and then hits us with a doctrinal truth to "discuss amongst yourselves." And today as we study First Corinthians 8-13, we are going to look at the doctrinal truths Paul introduced. And we are going to "talk amongst ourselves'" And for this lesson, please, I invite every one of you to study with a friend, a family member, a neighbor, anyone you know, and "talk amongst yourselves." Or if you're teaching this next Sunday, be sure to invite the class to "discuss."

Tammy 1:08

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really Dig Into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow a link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my dear sweet friend Mary Avenel Woods and her darling daughter Monta Woods Lindsey. Hi, ladies. Thank you for coming to see me at Seagull Book. Oh, I loved visiting with you. Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different. And today we have, I'm super excited to introduce you to, now you know this person, Sharmaine Howell. Hey, Shar.

Shar 1:52

Hey, Tammy. So glad to be here.

Tammy 1:54

Glad you're here from Minnesota. Oh, this is gonna be awesome. And we are excited to announce that we have Emily Robison Adams. Hi, Emily.

Emily 2:03

Hi, Tammy. Thanks for inviting me.

Tammy 2:05

Oh, you're welcome. Okay, this is gonna be so much fun. Those of you who don't know Emily, she is an author. I highly recommend her book called "Divine Quietness," it's so good. Emily, first of all, just tell everybody listening a little bit about yourself so they can get a feel for who you are.

Emily 2:19

Yes. I'm married, have three children, and I'm a practicing attorney - I do appeals here in Utah. And I have learned to love Utah and learned to love the outdoors of Utah. I'm 6'3, so I'm enormous. And a couple years ago, I went through this - yeah, it's really fun - and I went through this epic faith crisis and wrote to get through it. And that's what turned into "Divine Quietness."

Shar 2:19


Tammy 2:26

And we're gonna discuss that book today. That's funny, you're 6'3. Shar, how tall are you?

Shar 2:48

5' 10

Emily 2:49

The "Tall Ladies" club. I love it.

Shar 2:51

It is, yeah, yeah.

Tammy 2:53

Your husband's tall. Your kids are gonna be wicked tall.

Shar 2:55

They are. Yeah, they're already getting taller than me. So that's crazy.

Tammy 3:00

I thought you were like, 5'11. You're only 5'10?

Shar 3:02

I know. That sounds

Tammy 3:04

You're a shorty.

Shar 3:04

pathetic compared to you, Emily.

Tammy 3:04

I know.

Shar 3:04

I gotta like straighten my backup.

Emily 3:10

My 13-year old just hit 5'11. So we're got some got some growing left to do for him.

Tammy 3:17

I have a 14-year old daughter and she just hit 5'11. So, but she had X rays and the doctor's like, "I think your growth plates are closing." She was like, "I wanted to make it to six feet. So we'll see. I don't know.

Shar 3:27

Good for her. Whoo.

Tammy 3:29

I love that kid.

Shar 3:29

That's awesome.

Tammy 3:31

Okay, but I'm laughing a little bit. Did either one of you, did you ever watch "Coffee Talk", the skit?

Shar 3:35

I did see it and you have the best Boston accent, Tam. I love it. I wanna get you a coffee.

Tammy 3:41

It's so funny, way back in the 90s. Of course you guys don't know, you're so young. Oh my gosh. Yeah. This is, people from the 90s who know "Coffee Talk" are gonna love this, but it's, I did laugh because I'm like Paul is feeling a little bit verklempt. He is so sad in his writings. And so, I was out walking one morning and I was thinking about and listening to Paul again. And I thought this is exactly what it reminds me of. We just have to bring it back. Some people get it, and some people don't. If you don't, google "Coffee Talk." Watch the skit, it's pretty hilarious, it's worth it. So. Well, if you want to know more about my guests, go ahead and find their bios which are in our show notes and you can read them and see pictures of them. They're going to be at LDS on Monday. So everyone, grab your scriptures, scripture markers, scripture journal, and a friend or a neighbor or someone to study the scriptures with and Let's Dig In to the messages from Paul.

Tammy 4:35

Okay, so the first thing that I've asked every guest to do during this whole series of letters from Paul is - and I joked about this earlier, like when we first started the letters - I said, "If Paul saw Christians today we would be getting a letter. So I've asked all of my guests as they're reading their portion of the letter to tell me: If Paul was writing this to you specifically, what stood out to you as you, in your readings. So I'm, we're gonna start with that. And we'll start with Emily and then we'll go to Shar.

Emily 5:03

Well, I really loved in 1 Corinthians 8 and then as we move on to 1 Corinthians 13, and 12 and 13, how he's really wanting to build a community. He's trying to say we have this really diverse group of saints in Corinth; we've got, we got Greece, we've got Romans, we've got Jews, we've got all these people. We've got a wide variety of economic circumstances, and how do we create a unified but not uniform community? And I think that informs us today, as much as it did Paul in his time, that we want to create strong community, strong religious communities. And that doesn't mean that we're all the same. It means that we all can be different, but that we're unified in Christ. I loved his focus on really paying attention to your own actions, how your actions can affect others, and how we need to act always in love. You know, love is the the ultimate, you know, gift that we can have. But it was just really fascinating how sometimes, especially in the United States, we focus a lot on our rights and maybe not so much in our responsibilities. And he's very much talks in here about his rights, like, I can do all these things. But there are things that I choose not to do, because I think it could harm others. And that's a really interesting concept.

Tammy 6:16

Oh, my gosh, Emily. I wrote in my scriptures at the top of chapter 8 what you just said, "Unified, not uniform community." That was so profound. You're absolutely right. That's what he's teaching throughout all these chapters. I think that's a great way to start out this whole discussion, unified, not uniform, and love. I going to put that next to you, that the love is at the heart of all of it. Oh, thank you for sharing that. i like that that stood out to you.

Shar 6:40

I love that. I thought a lot about the unity and the community as well. But the other thing that really stood out to me was the Why behind it all, you know, and the love. And so, you know, he talks about God and how we need to love God and how we need to, you know, have a relationship with God and what it means to do that. And then in the end towards 13, it talks a lot about the charity and, and just how we need to have that love for others for, you know, for our Savior, and we need to feel His love. But then, like why are we doing this? It's all because of Jesus. And so that's just was my takeaway from this chunk of scriptures is like, this is all because of Jesus. We're doing it for Him and we're doing it because of Him. And so if we make Him the why, and the reason why we're doing all the things we're doing each day, it helps us to have that unity, and it helps us to have that love for each other, because He's the reason. So that kind of stood out to me this time.

Tammy 7:40

Um hmm. Oh, my gosh, sorry, I'm just writing everything. Thank you Sar. I put "all because of Jesus, the why for these chapters." Wow, that was good. Hold on, I have to put your name by this so I remember, Shar and Emily. Well, thank you both. That was a perfect setup for what we're going to discuss today. There are so many topics that Paul wants to make sure that the saints are aware of. And like we've said before, the chapter breaks were put in later. So sometimes it's really important to read into the next chapter as if it was following what was said before. There's a lot of connections there when you do that. That's one of the ways I like to read these letters is just remember, the chapter breaks were put in later, they were never existing in Paul's letters. And it just for me makes it even more powerful. So I was, that's kind of what stood out to me this time when I was reading the letters is a reminder of that, especially when we finish the end. You'll kind of see this neat connection when you take out the chapter breaks. So, thank you to both of you.

Tammy 8:35

Okay, so what we're gonna do then is in the next segment we're going to be introduced to Paul's first doctrinal topic, and we're going to discuss amongst ourselves.

Segment 2 8:43


Tammy 8:55

Okay. Emily, you introduced a little bit at your beginning how you had a faith crisis. And it's what evolved into this book called "Divine Quietness", and again, I've always said this, and I'll say it again: God picks the guests. Because I knew I wanted you on the podcast, I just didn't know where. And we had had an interaction months ago about you being a guest. And you had suggested some scriptures that connected with your book, but I forgot about that email. And so I was writing down, I was looking at all the upcoming episodes, and your name happened to be specific for this one. Then I read your book, and then my mind is blown, because so much of your book comes from these chapters. And I'm just grateful for Heavenly Father. It was like, Yeah, Tammy, you didn't pay attention to that email so I'm just gonna remind you, you want Emily on these episodes. So let's go to, let's go to 1 Corinthians 8. We're just going to read verses 1-6, because this for me stood out when you, when I read about your faith crisis that you had. And I'd just love to get your thoughts and Shar's thoughts on these verses, so here we go. We're each going to take a verse and we'll read one, and then we'll discuss. Okay, Shar, we'll start with you, and then Emily, and then me.

Shar 10:01

8:1 "Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Emily 10:09

2: "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

Tammy 10:16

3: "But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Shar 10:19

4: "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Emily 10:31

5: "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven on in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

Tammy 10:38

6: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Tammy 10:48

Okay, you two, there we go. Those are our verses, talk amongst yourselves. What are your thoughts Shar, and Emily?

Shar 10:55

I love these verses. They, they stood out to me, because recently, I had one of my kids come to me and asked me, you know, "How do we know all this isn't just all made up, you know. There's so many different religions out there, and so many different gods that people believe in? And how do we know that this isn't just something we've made up?" You know, which is a fair question. And I think that a lot of us think that once or twice in our life, right? And when I read this, it just really, I love that verse 6. It says, "There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ." And I just love that. It just, you know, sometimes I think the scriptures can seem in, especially in the Old Testament, the New Testament, a little confusing of like, you know, is there, is there just one being is, is there multiple beings? And who is, you know, who is it that we're talking to? And I think for kids, it's sometimes hard to come to figure that out.

Shar 11:55

And so, when I read that, I was like, That's it, that's the answer. It's very plain, and clear and simple. And there's just one. And I just, you know, I feel very blessed that I, we have the knowledge of that we do have. And talking to my, to my child, it just was really eye opening that we, we just have to figure it out, you know, on our own in our own time, and in our own way, and through the Spirit. But I love that, I just love that thought of, there's just one God, and we know it and and that's the truth. And it's right there. It's just plain and simple.

Tammy 12:30

Thank you, Shar, for sharing that. So here we have one God, one Lord Jesus Christ. Emily, tell us your experience with this idea of one God or the God that you believe in.

Emily 12:41

So it's really interesting. In this case, we have Paul and I think he's in the middle of trying to figure out. You have all these different groups of people that are trying to figure out how to become Christians. You've got Jews, you've got Greeks, you've got Romans. How do we have them become Christians? Do we bring over all this Jewish stuff? Do we bring over all this pagan stuff? Like what do we bring over to become Christians? And there'd been, I think, a council back in Acts 15, where they talked about do people need to be circumcised to be Christians? Like what part of the Jewish faith we bring into this Christian faith? And in my faith crisis, a lot of it was kind of looking at my faith and saying what parts are necessary, and what parts are things that I have just created about God that aren't helpful. And it was a massive deconstruction to say, and slightly different from this, but it's just this determination to say, You know what, this part is very cultural and I don't think this is helpful to me. This thought is helpful and I think I'm gonna go with that. This thought maybe needs to be tweaked a little bit.

Emily 13:38

And so for me, it felt very much like, I like to say that I had like this, if you put God in the middle, I felt like this gazebo around God, of ideas that I had about God. And there was a point where I couldn't see God inside. Like, I could see all of my ideas about God but they were not God. They were just ideas about God. And my process needed to be taking all of that down, and really examining everything and saying, Is this, is this accurate? Is this not? Is this something I need to put on the shelf for a while? Is this something I need to throw away? Is this something I want to keep? And what was fascinating to me is as I went through that kind of deconstructive phase, that there were just a lot of things that had accumulated in my brain about God that weren't necessarily helpful, or perhaps accurate. And so I had to take a lot of those and throw them out, you know.

Emily 14:30

One of them that I talked about a lot in the book was this idea of a transactional God. That if I did certain things that God was required to respond to me in a certain way. And that was something that I really liked. I liked the idea of having God be a vending machine, essentially, that God had to do things if I did my part, and God had to do exactly what He was supposed to do in my mind. And I really liked that God, because that's a comfortable God. When, but when I looked at it, you know, when I started really examining that idea, in really picking it up and looking at it with other attributes I hoped that God had, it didn't work. And it didn't mesh, and I had to get rid of it. So, you know, kind of like what Paul's doing here, he's kind of looking and saying, Well, like, kind of look at the cultural, look at some ideas that you guys have and are these helpful? Are these not? And then what do we need to be keeping? What do we need to be throwing away?

Tammy 15:22

How did you reconcile that? That He's not a transactional God?

Emily 15:26

So it was a long process, because if I didn't have a transactional God, then what God did I have in, in His place? And it took me a long time to give, to figure out what to be, what to have in His place. Because if I didn't have a God that I could, in many ways, in my mind, if God wasn't transactional, then God wasn't dependable. Because if I, you know, if I did all of my part, but God wasn't obligated to do His part, which to me was the transaction part of it, then how could I trust God? And it kind of came as a sudden thing, Tammy.

Emily 15:56

I was just talking with my son one day, and I had this just sudden, overwhelming feeling that God was good. And I had read some books that had talked about replacing a transactional faith with a sense of the "God is good", just that very simple, basic, God is good. God is working in your best interest. And I just had this very strong feeling that God is good. And that is what my faith is based on. So I basically got rid of that whole gazebo. The only thing that is left is God is good. And I think that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, that would have felt inadequate, and weak. But now it feels very, it feels good. It feels good to be down to the basics. And it feels good to recognize that I have a lot of uncertainty about God, that there's a lot of things that I can't figure out about God, and that's okay. But I can say that God is good.

Tammy 16:48


Shar 16:49

Hmm. That's cool.

Tammy 16:51

For you, does your brain work - because you're a lawyer - where there things that just have to be factual, non factual? Is it hard to live in a space? Because I'm imagining you have this gazebo of facts? And now you just live in this space of God is good. Is that, was that a hard struggle for you?

Emily 17:09

Yeah. I think getting to a place. And I think for all of us, you know, getting to a place where you're comfortable with uncertainty is really hard. Like, I think it's, it's really hard to get to a place where you can because we're so used to, for example, in testimony meeting, good people getting up and saying, I know this, and I know that and I think it's hard to get to a place where you're like, I don't know, but I can trust. And I don't know if things are gonna work out, but I can trust, and I can believe so it is uncomfortable. But I'd much rather I felt that before I was in a space of certainty, but it was brutal. And now I'm in a place of uncertainty, but it's much more flexible, and thus much stronger.

Shar 17:47


Tammy 17:48

I like the way you said that.

Shar 17:49

That is really neat. I don't know. It just makes me think a little bit of my kid that I was talking to, because he's very much of a detailed answers, you know, I need to know the facts and where you read that, and, and why it makes sense, and where it makes sense. And, and so sometimes it's hard to answer those questions as a parent, because you're like, Okay, well, I am not a scriptorium. So I can't tell you the exact verses and all the different references and that. But I don't think it comes down to that, like you were saying, Emily. It comes down to faith, you know, and saying, I don't know all these answers about God, and about the answers of the questions that I have concerning Him and, and this life.

Shar 18:30

But I do know that God is good. And I think that's so beautiful. And knowing that there is some uncertainty in that, like, we don't have some answers, but I trust, I trust him. And I trust that He loves me. And, and I, and like it says in verse 3, "If any man love God, the same is known of him." And that's, that was really beautiful to me, you know. I do love God. And so hopefully I can teach my kids to love God that, and God knows you. And He, He's watching you. And so I can trust that and I can trust that He's watching me, and He knows me. So, all the answers that I don't have, hopefully can be put aside for now and say, you know, he knows me, and he knows what I need right now. And I'm going to trust that.

Emily 19:12

I love that. And I think, what I think of kids, there's all this work on like childhood developmental stages on like, what their brains can handle. So when they're younger, everything is very, very rigid, it's very concrete. And then they, over time grow into more abstract thinking. And it just is a long process. And the same is with our spiritual development. We start off very concrete for needing to know everything. And we grow into more abstract, more flexibility. And in many ways, that's kind of what Paul was talking about here that, you know, there are people who are a little bit more on the abstract side, they're a little bit mature in their faith. So maybe it's to them. Some things aren't as important as to those who are maybe a little bit younger in their faith. But we need to act in a way where we're supporting everyone, whether they're more mature in their faith, whether they're a little bit younger in their faith. We need to make sure that we're interacting so that we're, you know, we're helping everybody instead of making them feel bad, or maybe introducing them to concepts that are a little too early that they wouldn't understand.

Emily 20:14

You know, it's all about just this community sense, that there's going to be people on a wide range of developmental. -what is the word I'm trying to think - a wide developmental range? And we need to see if we can negotiate all of that. And Paul, I believe, is it in chapter 9, where he talks about, "When I, when I go to a Jew, I'm a Jew. And when I go to a Greek I'm a Greek; when I go to Rome, I'm a Roman." I mean, it's very much like meeting people where they're at. So when your son is in a stage of I need to know everything, sometimes it's good to, you know, answer those questions the best you can, while also introducing ideas about flexibility. And then planting those seeds so that hopefully when they move to the next stage, they'll have that in mind.

Shar 20:56

Yep. I love that. So good.

Tammy 20:59

Me too. Thank you, both of you. That was a great discussion on those six verses. And for me, what came out of that definitely was verse 3. "But if any man loved God, the same is known as him." And then Emily, when you said "God is good", I put "God is good" next to verse 3. Because as you both were talking, it immediately moved me to our next segment. We're going to discuss in one of the most, I think, for me, the most profound ways that God has been good for me in my life. And so we're going to discuss that topic next.

Segment 3 21:27


Tammy 21:37

Okay, so talking about being kids. Emily, you talked about that, how we have this spiritual progression. I want you to kind of think about back when you were a kid or a teenager, and I want to know: Are the things that tempted you way back then the same as an adult? Like, have your temptations changed with age?

Emily 21:52

I think there'll be some things I struggle with my whole life. You think you grow out of them, but you really don't. So certainly, there are things that changed

Tammy 22:02

Anything you can share? Caramellos?

Emily 22:05

You know.

Tammy 22:07


Emily 22:07

Yeah, when you get to like self image, I think that for many of us that just sticks with you your whole life, you know, struggles with that.

Tammy 22:13


Emily 22:13


Shar 22:15

Yeah, agreed. Self image, self confidence. Even though you're like out and you're an adult, and you're doing things and you're acting very confident in all the things you're doing because you have to be, you know? There's always that little bit of like, oh, okay, here we go. I don't know if I can do this.

Tammy 22:30

Until you hit 50 years old. I'm going to tell you right now.

Shar 22:33


Tammy 22:33

It's most liberating age I've ever had. Like, then you just don't care anymore.

Shar 22:38

I'm old and I'm coming back.

Tammy 22:39

Totally true. Oh that's so funny. Okay, good example, though. Yes. So, keep talking. So you, for you, self image, keep going with this discussion.

Emily 22:48

Judgement. I honestly think that when I was younger, judgment, like judging others was huge. And I feel like I've gotten much better. But still, it'll pop up. And I'll be like,Well, that person's terrible, or whatever. They're like, Oh, my gosh. So yeah. I think it's much better than it was, but still there, still there.

Tammy 23:10

Yes, totally. What about you Shar?

Shar 23:13

I think those are great ones, Emily, I, I agree. I think the self image one, you know, as much as you just want to just love yourself for who you are, that's always something in the back of your head, right? And then, for me, I was always trying just to be, as a kid, it was, you know, trying to be the best that I could be and not feeling like I was, I mean, I always felt like I was good. And I was doing a good stuff and confident but never quite enough, you know. And maybe that's a little bit cultural from our church, so I can blame that a little bit on that. I don't think it was ever my parents, but even as an adult I do sometimes feel like, try my best, but it's just not quite enough. You know? So sometimes, you know, doggy paddling with my head up. Sometimes it's like, I'm walking at the bottom of the pool, you know, and I'm just like, I can do this. I know I can, Shar you got this. It's like that feeling of needing to be a little bit more, a little bit better, you know? So I don't know. That's just a temptation I have, which I know it's not, it's not always true, and I need to just like get that out of my head.

Tammy 24:21

Oh, my gosh.

Shar 24:21

What about you, Tammy?

Tammy 24:22

Great examples. Well, I was thinking about this question for myself. And I think I've learned how to manage my temptations much better. Like when I was younger, I wasn't more, I wasn't so aware of my situation surrounding me that I always ended up finding myself in that would create, again, me to fall for that temptation. And now that I'm older, I can manage my surroundings like, I don't even go close to the border of something that will tempt me. And so I feel like my temptations are the same, but my age has allowed me to have more control. Maybe that's a better way to say it -control over my environment. I mean, there are some shows I just can't even watch. I can't even, there's the slightest bit of nudity or sex or anything like that. I can't. I don't even, and I, and there have been times when I'm like, I'm mature. I'm actually not. Turns out I'm not mature enough for anything like that. And so I think that yeah, I've learned how to control my environment and make better choices.

Tammy 25:21

So yeah, I think it's been an interesting thing to watch as I've aged, the way temptation works and what Satan tries to get you with, because new things have popped up for me. And I was like, Well, this is interesting. Or when you get married and have kids, there's a whole new bucketful of, as judging, as you would say, Emily. But like, it's it's just Satan is the worst. If God is good, Satan is not. And so, he's so bad. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's interesting, because Paul brings up this idea. He's teaching us about God and then he goes into this chapter, in 1 Corinthians chapter 10, because he wants to help us understand. And I like how you said this, Emily. He wants us to understand something about how good God is. So he starts out with an Old Testament story, which I love, because I love Paul. And if you're thinking, but you skipped chapter 9. We'll come back to that, we'll come back later.

Tammy 26:12

So let's got to 1 Corinthians chapter 10. And Paul just starts out by saying, All right, everybody, let me just remind you that your ancestors, they were all with Moses, they crossed the Red Sea. And it's interesting, because he brings up twice. In verse 2 it says, "And were baptized unto Moses in the cloud, and in the sea." If you want to, where it says "in the cloud," verse 1 and 2 says, "under the cloud, or in the cloud." You can cross reference that with Exodus 13:21, where it talked about how the Lord would guide the people through the wilderness, a cloud by day and then a pillar of fire by night. So he's like, you remember that God was good. Then like he helped guide them and he helped them. And you ate spiritual meat and you drank. Like verse 4 he says you drank from a spiritual rock. And then I love, look at verse 4. Who is the spiritual rock that they drink from? Underline that. Who is that?

Shar 27:02

The rock was Christ.

Tammy 27:04

Yeah. So he's like, and that was Christ. Remember all of that? And then he says, but you know what? Here's the problem, in verse 5. God was not well pleased with all of them. So that's why they stayed in the wilderness for 40 years. We learned that last year. And then he lays out in verses 6, all the way through 10, the sins of the children of Israel. He's like, let me remind you what your ancestors struggled with. I'm going to read these verses. So as I do, I want you guys to underline the specific sins they struggle with or their transgressions. Here we go. Verse 6 says, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and 20 thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ," and the word 'tempt' is 'test' right there. "Neither let us test Christ, as some of them also tested, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer."

Tammy 28:10

Okay, what sins did you underline? Let's just number them. Here we go. Verse 6.

Shar 28:15

Lust after evil things.

Tammy 28:17

Very good. Verse 7.

Emily 28:19


Tammy 28:20

Yes. Verse 8.

Shar 28:24

Commit fornication.

Tammy 28:26

Um-hm. Verse 9.

Emily 28:28

Testing God.

Tammy 28:29

Yeah. And then verse 10.

Shar 28:31


Tammy 28:32

Very good. So he's like, Listen, this is pretty much the gamut of all the sins. Here they are, they all committed them, they all did it. And then he says in verse 11, "Now all these things happened unto them, for ensamples", or examples, and then we have a Joseph Smith translation. So circle the letter b, and draw a line down below to b. And here's what it says. Emily, will you please read for us 1 First Corinthians 10:11 with the Joseph Smith translation.

Emily 28:59

Yes, it says, 11: "Now these things happened unto them for examples. And they are written for our admonition also, and for an admonition for those upon whom the end of the world shall come."

Tammy 29:10

Okay, thank you. So they're written for our admonition. I'm just curious, based on the sins we read, how do you think that their circumstances are similar to ours today?

Emily 29:22

It's yeah, life is hard. So I think a lot of it ,we see a lot of these same things. I think that we certainly don't have golden calves, but we have idolatry and other way. Whether it's political parties or money or things, you know. Or sometimes we hold up certain people incredibly high in our esteem when we probably shouldn't and follow them more than we would God. I mean, certainly, we've got a lot of complaining. I'm big on that one.

Shar 29:50

I was like number five. Yeah. murmuring.

Tammy 29:53

I love you Emily, "I'm big on that one."

Emily 29:56

Sometimes you just need a really good complaint session and it just helps, so. So when my kids complain I'm totally annoyed. So its totally hypocritical that way.

Tammy 30:07

The worst. What do you think it means to test Christ? What does that look like in verse 9?

Shar 30:16

That's a good one.

Tammy 30:17

I know. Let's talk about it.

Shar 30:20

Talk about it; I'm feeling a little verklempt. Emily, will you talk about that?

Tammy 30:26

This is a really fascinating one. "Neither let us test Christ, as some of them also tested, and were destroyed of serpents." So that story about the serpents where they were dying, and Moses was told to make a snake on a stick, basically. And if they would look at it, they would live. And they were like, there is no way that's gonna work. That is ridiculous. I'm not even going to look, I'm not even going to try. And then they died. So many of them died. And I think of that, now you know the context for that verse. Now, how many of us test Christ?

Emily 31:02

That's a hard one for me because I think that it's actually, I've actually been thinking about that story for a couple of weeks now. Because of the other story that I've got a reference to is to the one in Numbers 21, where they're at - about the water, you know - saying, please, you know, give us water. Then Moses hits the rock and water comes out and says, You've tempted God, essentially. And Jesus talks about that. Because there are parts of Scripture where we're kind of encouraged to push back against God. We see that a lot in the Old Testament where, you know, our prophets are pushing back against God. So I don't know the answer to this question. And it's something that certainly has troubled me quite a bit. And I actually, this is something that I'm interested in. I'd love to hear your guys's thoughts, because I do think that God does want us to push back sometimes. But then you get verses like this where it's like, no, don't do it. Don't test God. Don't test God. And I don't know how to reconcile those, those two things.

Shar 32:03


Tammy 32:03

Interesting. I think back to them saying there's no way this is going to work, this is the most ridiculous thing ever. That's a very real statement for me many times in my life where we are promised, I really like the Scripture, There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven, whereupon, there are blessings that come from keeping commandments. Now, having said that, though, that's not a transactional God. Because I love that Emily brought this up at the beginning, I had a dear friend who said to me, "The blessings of living the gospel are the blessings of living the gospel." Like you can't keep certain commandments and expect the Lord - like if I paid my tithing, I'm going to be rich. That's not how it works. It's, and so I like this idea that, because sometimes there are things we're asked to do and we just think there's no way that's going to work, that is ridiculous. Especially the church answers: read your scriptures, say your prayers, go to church.

Tammy 32:54

I remember teaching my seminary students this, I asked them a question. I don't even remember the question. I just said, how can we do that better? And one kid raised his hand and said, "Well, it's the church answers: read your scripture, say your prayers, go to church. That's how God's going to help you." And another kid raised their hand, because he said it kind of in this like dumb way, like duh. And this other kid raised his hand and said, "It's always the same answers, like, Isn't there something else we can do?" I was in the thick of being single, just the thick of it. And I can remember thinking, you've got a really good point, kid, because I have been doing, I have been reading my scriptures, saying my prayers, going to church, and I am still single. And, and it is driving me bonkers. And I started to doubt, like, I don't really know if this is going to work, because it hasn't worked for me yet. And so I think that is how in my life I have tested Christ. Like that is, really don't think it's gonna work, maybe I should go a different route, maybe there's something else that I should try. That's,that's kind of how I read verse 9.

Emily 33:50

I just looked really closely, I just looked back at like Numbers 21:5-7. And it talks about the children of Israel traveling from -and this isn't the King James Version, this is a more modern translation - but they traveled from Mount Hor to go around Edom, and so they've been walking for a long time. And the people grew impatient on the way. And they spoke against God, and against Moses. And said why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread, there is no water ,and we detest this miserable food, which is all very understandable, right? Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them, they bit the people in many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you; pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us. So Moses prayed for the people. So it's almost in some ways the children of Israel weren't recognizing that there was just an exodus that happened that was pretty miraculous. And they are getting Manna every day, which is pretty miraculous. It's almost like they're kind of throwing those gifts back in God's face in some ways? Maybe that's when testing God is about, just kind of throwing those gifts back. I don't know.

Emily 33:51

No, this is so cool, because you just read this. What did the people ask Moses to do, specifically,

Shar 34:12

They asked him to pray.

Tammy 35:03

Pray for what?

Emily 35:05

To take the snakes away

Tammy 35:06

To take the snakes away. And when Moses came back, that is not what happened. They did not get what they asked for. Instead, they had to look at a snake, the very thing that was causing them harm.

Shar 35:16

That's so interesting. And they're like, wait a minute, that's not what we wanted. Yeah, that's not what we asked you to pray for. So why would we do the opposite what we asked you to pray for? So maybe go pray again, get a different answer for me. Right?

Tammy 35:29

That's not what I wanted. I was very clear with you, Lord, take the snake away. And then he's like, No, do this. And then they're like, that's not going to work. I'm not even going to, in fact, if you cross reference that to the scripture in Alma that retells the story, it says, "because of the easiness of the way" you refused to do it. It was, that, it was easy. It would have been easier to look at the snake than it would have been to remove all the snakes.

Shar 35:53

Yeah, just gotta glance. Just gotta look over there.

Tammy 35:55

Just a glance. That's all it would have taken. Yep. A quick little, even going back to this idea, Emily, of God is good. Well, I don't know how it's gonna work out, but God is good. So just a quick little, umt. And you're, you're gonna, it was just that simple of an answer.

Shar 36:08

Yeah. And sometimes we test God with the fact that we, you know, pray and pray and pray for something like the Israelites. We get an answer and we say, No, not that one.

Tammy 36:17


Shar 36:17

Let's, let's send it send a different one. That one, that one seems, you know, iffy to me. So I'm just gonna keep prayin til I get a different one. I just want a different answer. Right?

Tammy 36:28

Yes, Emily, I love this in your book, because I related to this, because I have said this too. You said that. Well, maybe God's busy. Maybe He just, He probably doesn't have time for me right now. I'll come, I have said that before. When I fasted and prayed about a very, very important life choice. I'm like, I'm not getting the answer so I'll just, I'll fast to get, I fasted four times under the idea that God was just too busy until somebody pointed out it's a stupid thought, you idiot.

Shar 36:50

Yeah, yeah, you're getting an answer. What? But I just don't want that answer.

Tammy 36:54

I didn't want the answer. I did not. And so when I read that in your book, I'm like, Oh, she gets it. Yes. That's me testing Christ right there. Yeah, not really what I wanted.

Shar 37:04

Yeah. Well, that's a little uncomfortable. Sometimes I think we feel uncomfortable and with the answers we get. And so then we're like, God, will You please, will You please show me a different way, you know, because we don't want to be uncomfortable. And I think that that was a lot of what the Israelites in this example, and probably even the people at the time of Paul, they didn't want to be uncomfortable. And so they were like, Yeah, give us a different, a different route, a different answer, something that's easy, right?

Tammy 37:31

Hmm. I'm so glad you read that scripture for us, Emily.

Emily 37:34

My pleasure. I mean, it's interesting, because I, I don't want to read this and come away saying, you know, you know, like in Job. We have Job pushing back against God a little bit at the very end. And then God comes and says, you know, commends him for it. So sometimes it's like, I don't know the balance between that. I don't know if maybe the children of Israel are taking an accusatory tone and that was the problem. But Job kind of was too. So I, you know, I don't know.

Tammy 38:03

Remember, God calls out Job though and says, You don't know all of the things I have planned for you. SoJjob does push back. And God very clearly puts him back in his place; but you don't understand everything I have set for you. Then Job repents of his behavior, and then God commends him.

Emily 38:22

And that's what I think amazing is that God's response is not an answer to Job's question. It's that I'm so incomprehensible that you just can't understand. And he can't understand anything. So yeah, anyway, it's just, it's just an interesting thing. We don't want to tempt God, but we also, in any kind of healthy relationship there'll be push back, right? There'll be some pushback. So I'm, I'm not sure how that works in a human/divine relationship. But I would think if it's, you know, respectful and acknowledging that God is good, and trying to do it from a place of just really trying to rely on your will with God, I think that that would probably be okay. I don't know, what do you guys think?

Shar 39:06

I also, I totally agree with you. I think there is, there's like a line, right. But I also was thinking that sometimes this testing Christ, and maybe it also looks like forgetting Him and not remembering Him in our life. And so, you know we're going about when times are great and times are good, and we just forget about Him, you know? And then when it's really hard and we need Him, we're like, Oh, wait, wait, wait, I need your help on this, you know. I'm gonna pray really hard that this lesson goes great, but I, you know, I haven't been doing much the last four weeks. So, you know, so I think, I wonder if that's also part of it, you know. It makes me think of the brother of Jared and how they had all these blessings. And then they made it to the beach and then they camped there for a few years and they forgot Him, you know? And then the Lord came to him and chastised him and was like, What are you doing? Stop, stop forgetting Me and get back up on your two feet and get going. Because this is not where I want you to end, I want you to move on, and it's not going to be easy.

Shar 40:02

So I kind of wonder if testing him sometimes looks like forgetting Him. And we're not remembering Him in our daily lifes and in the little things, and we just kind of are doing it on our own and saying, We don't really need, I don't really need You until I want to need You. Right?

Tammy 40:19

Yeah, I like that.

Emily 40:20

My parents used to call that, they said that, with there were friends in high school that would only show up when things are good. They'd say, Oh, they're just a fair weather friend. They're only here when thing's are good. When things get tough they're outta here. So it seems like what you're saying, Shar, is sometimes we treat God as a bad weather friend. They only show up when like things are going poorly. And then the minute the weather's good, We're like, we're good. And I think God wants us to be a fair weather friend and a good weather friend. He wants us to be an all weather friend.

Emily 40:20

An all weather

Shar 40:47

Yeah. That's so good.

Tammy 40:50

So he has this whole discussion, all of that to set us up for verses 12-14. Because here are the classic scripture mastery scriptures. So Shar, will you read 12-14 for us.

Shar 41:01

10: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Tammy 41:06

That right there is like all weather friend. Like if you think you don't need Jesus, you're gonna fall. Like, that's what it means. Wherefore let him that think he standeth, like you're so great.

Shar 41:15

Everything's fine, you're standing on you own 2 feet. You're going to fall on your face, though. Just wait for it. Yeah.

Tammy 41:21

Totally. I like that. Okay, keep going.

Shar 41:23

It's like he's ice skating. You're all gonna fall.

Tammy 41:25


Shar 41:26

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry."

Tammy 41:45

Okay, in verse 13, we're going to mark a couple of words, and then read this really great quote. So we want to mark "make away." That means provide, he's going to provide a way for you to escape. The word "bear", I think is better translated "endure." That you may be able to endure it. And "there hath no temptation taken you." This idea, the word "taken" means "seized" in Greek; there is no temptation that has seized you but such as is common to man." Like God is faithful, right there. That's for me, God is good, Emily. Like God is good. He will not suffer you to be attempted above that you're able. Like every one of us are going to experience temptations of so many different proportions. There's so many different levels of temptation for everyone. So what do we do with that? I really, really love what James Talmage wrote about the temptations we experience in "Jesus the Christ" chapter 10. It's under the heading "The temptations of Christ." It's two paragraphs so we're, Emily, will you read the first paragraph for us and then Shar the second. And I'd love to know your thoughts on what he teaches us about temptation.

Emily 42:44

"It is not to be supposed that Christ's victorious emergence from the dark clouds and three specified temptations exempted him from further assaults by Satan, or insured him against later trials of faith, trust, and endurance. Luke closes his account of the temptations following the 3 day fast as follows. "And when the devil had ended all his temptation, he departed from him for a season." This victory over the devil and his wiles, this triumph over the cravings of the flesh, the harassing doubts of the mind, the suggested reaching out for fame and material wealth, were great, but not final successes in the struggle between Jesus, the embodied God and Satan, the fallen angel of light

Shar 43:23

"That Christ was subjected to temptation during the period of His association with the apostles, he expressly affirmed. That His temptations extended even to the agony in Gethsemane will appear as we perceive with the study, it is not given to the rest of us, nor was it given to Jesus to meet the foe, to fight and overcome in a single encounter, once for all time. The strife between the immortal spirit and the flesh, between the offspring of God on the one hand and the world and the devil on the other, is persistent through life."

Tammy 43:58

Do you just love that quote?

Emily 44:01

I mean, one of the greatest things about Jesus is that He was human, you know. He experienced humanity, which includes temptations, and it wasn't limited to this 40 days in the wilderness and these three temptations. It was throughout His entire life. And it's a beautiful and amazing thing that we have a God that came down and lived like us and acted like, well, not acted like us - acted much better than us, in fact. But lived like us, experienced everything that we would experience. Because it's a very relatable God, like this is a God who who knows me and can relate to the things that I struggle with. And that's beautiful. It's so much better than a sovereign God that sits on a throne and doesn't come down and have any interaction with His people, and that just only knows the good life. Jesus knew the hard life and that's pretty beautiful.

Shar 44:58

Yeah, and He didn't, I love that. I love that He had to struggle. He had to figure it out. He had to fight. I liked that it says that, you know, He had to meet the foe and fight and overcome, but it wasn't just one time.

Tammy 45:16


Shar 45:16

It wasn't like, oh, he had that temptation moment and He got through it. Man, he's so great, Jesus did it. It was persistent. And it like that. It just is a great reminder to me, you know. Sometimes when I feel like why am I still doing the same stupid thing over and over again? Why do I still mess up? Why won't I learn my lesson? I am 37. Come on, get my act together, you know. It's like, it's okay. That is life, it is going to be persistent throughout my whole life. And that's kind of hopeful for me to think about, because a lot of times I think of my weaknesses and my, my sins as such bad parts of me, and things that I shouldn't have anymore and that I should be done with. But I'm not perfect and I'm not going to be perfect in this life, you know. So that's okay to feel like I'm still trying my hardest and trying is all I can do some days, right?

Tammy 45:30

Um-hmm. And God is good. And He gets it. He knows what you're going through. And that's why I like this quote, because the word persistent through life, it really is for many of us. And that's why when it says, but such is common to man, but God is good, God is faithful. And He really does get it. And I, I really like this quote, because to me it just means we have not been left alone to fight this persistent battle, we just haven't. And so in the next segment, we're actually going to get some hope. And we're going to learn about a gift that each of us has been given that's going to help us in this persistent battle. We'll do that next

Segment 4 46:55


Shar 46:56

All right, you guys right out of the gate, then. Paul introduces us to the help. So look at 1 Corinthians 12:1, let's go there. He talks about temptations. Chapter 11, you can just put tradition, customs, whatever. That's what chapter 11 is really about. We're gonna, we're not going to cover all that. So. It talks about women with long hair; it's a lot of traditions. Are we agreed on that?

Emily 47:20

Yeah, one thing that's interesting is that like he's totally okay with women preaching in the churches. He just wants them to be veiled. So it's just

Tammy 47:26


Emily 47:26

He's totally okay with women having authority, he's just like, just wear a veil. So you're just like

Tammy 47:30

Exactly. Just know that when you read that chapter. So then we go to chapter 12:1, here we go. So what I want you to do is look at chapter 12:1, and just tell me what we might assume the gift is that's going to help us with temptations. What is he talking about in Chapter 12?

Shar 47:48

Maybe the gifts of the Spirit. Right?

Tammy 47:49

Thank you, Spiritual gifts. Awesome. So bracket off verses 4-11 and write "spiritual gifts." Now I'm going to give you cross references for this. Put Doctrine and Covenants 46:11-26. That's where you can read more spiritual gifts. So that's Doctrine and Covenants 46:11-26. And Moroni 10:9-18. Now listen, we are not going to go over every gift. In fact, if you want to know what every gift is, I'm gonna recommend listening to season two,episode 19 with Holly and Becky Farley. Or season one, episode 49, again with Becky Farley. I love that she was on both spiritual gifts, and my friend Kimberly Brown Sorensen, because it's an excellent discussion of the gifts. Paul is teaching us right here about spiritual gifts, but he's setting up the doctrinal topic, you guys, and the gift that every one of us have been given to overcome temptation. Here's what you want to know. In verse 4, it says, "There are diversities of gifts." So there are just so many, and so many outside of the ones listed in Scripture.

Tammy 47:49

And then he goes to verse 11. "But all these worketh that one and the self same spirit dividing to every man severally as he will." So that means everyone has been given at least one gift. Not one person has all the gifts. Like we, some of us have more some, of us, but at least every one of us have one of the spiritual gifts listed. But we all have access to what Paul's really teaching us about. He says, Look at all these awesome gifts that everybody has. And here we go - bracket off verses 12-27. Oh, I love this so much. And what you want to write, just go to verse 27. It's gonna give us the label for these verses. Emily, will you please read verse 27.

Emily 49:33

Absolutely. It says "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Tammy 49:41

Okay, label these verses the "Body of Christ." This, you guys, this is the gift. If you want to know how to overcome temptation, if you need help, it is going to be about the body of Christ. And Emily, you did a brilliant job of discussing this in your book. So I've asked you, will you just teach us a little bit about the body of Christ. And some of these verses, and same with you, Shar, verses that stood out to you that talk about the body of Christ. So hit it Em. Why would body of Christ help us with temptations?

Emily 50:08

Right. I really love the idea of the body of Christ, because as Paul talks about it, he talks about the weak saints, the lesser members are perceived more honor, you know. Lke we're helping everybody and everybody has a part. You can't all be feet, you can't all be eyes, you can't all be noses. Like we all are different and we're all needed. And whether you're a lesser member or a greater member, you're still needed. And I absolutely love that concept. There was a time where I felt very much like an optional organ. Like, I'm like the, I don't know, the gall bladder

Tammy 50:45

The appendix

Emily 50:46


Shar 50:46


Emily 50:48

The gall bladder. Uh-hmm. They do help the body run a little bit better, but if nobody's gonna miss it when they're gone, you know. But when you, but really, I think it's so important for us to recognize that everyone is needed, and that there's going to be some parts. So there's going to be some Sunday school classes that are going to be really important for me, but they might be off putting to somebody else, you know, because I need different things as a different part of the body. I need different things than my neighbor. The heart needs, you know, oxygen and things like that. And it functions off of different things than the liver does. And we all just have different roles. And if we can truly embrace that we all have different roles, and different needs, and that it's okay. And that we can all work together to become, you know, a unified group. That's, that's the goal.

Emily 51:37

And I think when I saw my community, my ward as the body of Christ, rather than viewing myself as defective because my faith was really struggling, I was able to see myself as just a member, a just a member that had a different part than other people. And I could also give more grace to other folks, because I think sometimes when you're struggling with your faith, it's really easy for a part, for a time for me, it was really easy to take offense to everything, just because everything hurts. Like God hurts, church hurts, everything hurts. But if you can recognize that, you know, different parts of that body need different things and there's, you know, operating from maybe from different perspectives and different experiences, but that they're all valued.

Tammy 52:22


Emily 52:23

That's really a lovely way where you can give people grace, you can give yourself grace, and you can all move forward together as a community.

Tammy 52:30

Let's read a couple of verses, and then I want to read a part from your book, Emily, because I really liked what you read, or what you wrote. The first verse I think we should mark is verse 12 where it says, "For as the body is one," that's what you want to mark. And then go to verse 14, "For the body is not one member, but many." There's many parts that make this up. And then verse 17 and 18 - I thought were so profound to me in my reading of what the body of Christ looks like. Shar, can you read 1 Corinthians 12:17, 18.

Shar 52:57

"If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole body were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him?"

Tammy 53:12

I mean, that is so great. Not, we can't all be eyes, because there's no

Shar 53:16

Then we couldn't smell.

Tammy 53:18

Yeah. And if we were all ears, nobody could taste. Like how sad if you couldn't taste, you know, cheese. That's devastating to me. This idea that we actually need every single part. Now keep looking at these verses. Emily, what would you have us mark, or Shar, when you read these verses. What stood out to you with this that we can mark?

Emily 53:39

So I absolutely love those exact same verses. And I love verse 21. And I actually have it in my, I have Wayment's New Testament because it's a little bit more modern, and it just helps me. I see things a little bit differently. But I love it how he says "The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you, nor can the head say to the feet, I have no need of you." So, so often, you know, if we see people who are different than us in our congregations, we want to, rather than embracing them and, you know, really learning from them, we push them away. And one thing I really love - Patrick Mason, I really love him. He's a great LDS thinker and a Professor up, I think U. S.

Tammy 54:18

Utah State

Emily 54:18

Yes. One of those Utah Universities, and he talks about how he takes it as a spiritual practice, that he knows that when there's somebody that's gonna get up on the stand, whether it's somebody in this church or even somebody in General Conference, where he's like, I know that I'm probably going to disagree with them. And his spiritual practice is to listen to them intently and try and learn. And I think that that's, that's the way that the eye and the ear are paying attention to each other. Even though you know that you're going to probably not agree, you're still listening really intently and trying to get what you can. So I love, I love that. I also love verse - well I love all of them, right? Instead the members of the body even though they seem to be weaker are essential, and those members of the body that seem less honorable, we place greater honor on them. And our unpresentable body parts are clothed with greater respect, which our more presentable parts do not need.

Emily 54:22

And there was certainly a time. I remember giving a Relief Societ lesson when I was really feeling in this kind of dark place where I'm like, I am this weaker member. And I feel completely unneeded, you know, I'm not needed. I don't feel like I'm needed in church because I'm really struggling with my faith. And this idea of, even though they seem to be weaker, are essential. It was like, Nope, you still have a place, even if you're struggling, you still have a place. You don't just have a place, you're essential. You're needed. You're absolutely necessary to this whole body of Christ.

Shar 55:41

Yeah, those are those are good ones. I had also marked 22. Because I think we all just feel like we're the more feeble one at some points, right? Who, does anybody feel like I'm not the best one in my ward? I just, let's hear a shout out for them, good for you.

Tammy 55:58

I think everyone listening is like, I'm a feeble person.

Shar 56:01

I think we all feel like that, you know, and, you know, I just love that it says they are necessary. And then I liked in verse 25, it says, "but that the members should have the same care one for another." You know, whether you feel like you can learn something from somebody who stands up or not, because you're like, Oh, they just, you know, they're young, they're kids, whatever it is, you know. Anybody, even children, new converts, old, old people who've been in the church for forever, we all have something to offer. It's just like, you know, when we've been taught when we are told to read the scriptures, and then read them again, and then read them again, read them again, because we're always going to learn something new. Even though we've already read all the words, we can always learn something new from each other. And I love that thought.

Emily 56:47

I love verse 25, Shar. I think that's so fantastic. And verse 26. If one member suffers, that every member suffers together, and if one member is glorified, that every member rejoices together.

Tammy 56:59


Emily 57:00

One thing I love about that is sometimes in our communities are really good with suffering with each other, you know. If somebody has some really terrible accident or disease, you know, generally, you know, you're right there. They're like, you're the, we're taking care of the lawn, they're giving them meals, and babysitting the kids and you're doing what we can. But sometimes when one member is glorified, thaen every member rejoices together. Sometimes in our communities that can be a little bit trickier. Like if somebody gets a calling, and sometimes in our communities we perceive that if you've a certain calling that you're just more righteous, or you're better, you're more worthy. All things that are not true, but can be culturally what we do. Sometimes when somebody gets a calling that maybe you think you should have had or your spouse should have had, or this other person in your neighborhood should have had. Sometimes it's hard to rejoice together, you know, or if you think that the person who got that calling maybe shouldn't have it. It can be hard to rejoice together. So I think, you know, we're really good at suffering together, but maybe something, you know, rejoicing together is something that we could work on.

Shar 56:59


Tammy 57:58

Oh, wow. I really like that. You're totally right. We are so good when people suffer. Yeah. Well, and this, this idea - because forever I have always read chapter 12 separate, I have always read spiritual gifts separate a body of Christ. And it's very, Paul is so brilliant, because he's like, look, there's all these spiritual gifts, and you kind of are inflated a little like, Ooh, I wonder what mine is. Great. Go read your Patriarchal blessing. Figure out what it is and then get back in the game. Because now find out what part of the body of Christ you are. And there's a lot of people who need you and your gift is not for you. Youro gift isn't self serving, right?

Shar 58:32

Right. If you're in the foot, it's you're moving the whole body along. It's not so you can just make footprints, right?

Tammy 58:39

You're totally right. Absolutely. And so the body of Christ, we help each other. Like, God is good, because He sent us this body of Christ to help each other, such as common demand. Like we all get it. In your ward, there are people who struggle with your same temptations. So find out; let's let's create this this community together. You know, Emily, I liked what you wrote in here. On page 82 of your book you said, "Eeach member of the church is different, but those differences strengthen the entire body of the church. Paul recognizes that the body works best when its various parts are healthy and when these parts are not trying to be something they are not." Because it reminded me of our discussion we had back in the Spring where the Lord encourages us to love others as we love ourselves.

Tammy 59:24

And our guest said the way she views that Scripture is "not to love someone like, Oh, I love me so that's how much I'm gonna love you." She said when it says to love others as yourself, she interpreted that to love someone as your true self, as who you really are and capable of loving them as. Like not trying to be something you're not; just love them in the most perfect way you can. And that's what I thought of when I read your, that's what you bring to the body of Christ is your true authentic self. Let's just be who you are. That is what Jesus needs in His body, in the whole body of Christ to help each other heal and I really like how you both pointed out 25 and 26, that we care for one another when we are suffering and when we rejoice. You wouldn't think of caring for someone when you're rejoicing with them. But I love nothing more than when people rejoice with me. That fills my heart almost more than a casserole, right?

Shar 1:00:15

Yeah. Yeah. So true.

Tammy 1:00:16

Like when people are excited for you, that is an awesome feeling.

Shar 1:00:22


Emily 1:00:22

I just love what you said about how God needs us to be who we are in the body. And I mean, I know that there have been folks along my path, like there was a Relief Society President -Stake Relief Societ President we had back in Minnesota. And she got up one Sunday and told her story, and her story was so, and it wasn't the perfect, like, you know, it wasn't, her life was on a perfect plan. There was a massive divot in the middle and lots of bumps and bruises along the way. But she was very honest about it, and very, just like, this is what, and candid. And to me, you know, she wasn't pretending to be someone she wasn't. She was just embracing her story and bringing God into it and then being willing to share. And that strengthened my faith because I loved, I felt like I was connecting with someone. And I know that I'm totally a millennial. And I think that there's been some research done that millennials value authenticity over authority.

Emily 1:01:14

I mean, and so I guess I just fit right in, where I really value people who are themselves and can, that can bring God in and can just like, This is my, this is my story. This is who I am, this is is my experience. And one thing I love is one Catholic monk - I love, is Thomas Merton - and he had this, he had all these, he wrote a bunch. And one of his books, he said, "The way that an oak tree honors God is by being an oak tree. And the way that a flower honors God is by being a flower." A flower doesn't honor God by being an oak tree, you know. And so it's just like you honor God by being you and what does that, you know, being the best version of yourself or a version of yourself, because sometimes best can make us feel like we're not enough. But you know, by just being you, you know, be be you are that because that you are the person that God created. God did not create me to be Tammy and God didn't create Tammy to be me or Shar, you know. It's just He created us and that's huge.

Shar 1:02:08

Yes, that totally stands out to me, it really resonates with me. And what you said to me to love others as you love yourself, but you first have to love yourself, as well. You can't love somebody else well unless you love yourself well, right? And so one of the, I never really was big on affirmations but lately I have been saying a few to myself. And one goes right along with what you were just saying, Emily, that you have to really embrace who you are, you know. I can't be the ear and be pretending to be the mouth and try so hard to be the mouth, right? I have to be who I am. And one of the affirmations that I say to myself is, I am a unique, talented, smart and capable woman worthy of being called upon to do the Lord's work. And I just think like we are all unique and capable and we're worthy of doing the Lord's work and the work that we each do of the Lord's is a little bit different because we all have to bring that to, in order to make our you know, to make the gospel work here on Earth. We all need each other.

Tammy 1:03:12

Beautiful discussion, women, thank you for your thoughts. In fact, let's end this segment with verse 31. So go to verse 31 of 1 Corinthians 12. Verse 31 says, "But covet", mark the word 'covet' in, actually, it's translated as seek, seek earnestly, Here we have this, "But seek earnestly the best gifts." And who is that? It's the body parts that will help you, it's the body of Christ. So go to church this Sunday and seek for the best gifts that will help you at this time. Who is going to be the body part that will get you through this? "Seek earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew it I unto you a more excellent way." So in the next segment, we're going to show you what the excellent way is.

Segment 5 1:03:55


Tammy 1:04:05

I'm so excited to show this to you guys and play it for you. Okay, hold please. I have to get this ready. I really hope it's gonna work. Okay, so Emily, what do I have?

Emily 1:04:19

Well, that's the, that's just like the monkey from Toy Story, right?

Tammy 1:04:23


Shar 1:04:24

The clapping cymbals, clapping cymbals monkey.

Emily 1:04:26

That's what this means. Yep.

Tammy 1:04:27

Yes. The clapping this, the monkey-clapping cymbals. I found it. It was a prank gift given to us for Christmas and of course, I keep it. Like it's the most awesome gift. But that cymbal sound - if you had to hear that cymbal sound nonstop all the time, how would that work for you?

Emily 1:04:44

Well, that's when you check yourself into a mental hospital.

Tammy 1:04:50

I mean, you both have kids, if you're kids were sitting there playing that getting so much enjoyment out of it, how long you going to last?

Shar 1:04:56

Yeah, just a couple seconds, maybe a minute, and then you say, All right. Let's do something different now. Please stop.

Tammy 1:05:02

In fact, after we got it, we put it right back in the box and it's been on a shelf ever since. That sound of that cymbol hitting back and forth and back and forth, it made me think of 1 Corinthians 13:1. When I read this verse, I'm like, I gotta pull out the monkey. Char, will you read for us verse one.

Shar 1:05:19

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."

Tammy 1:05:28

And as you said, annoying.

Shar 1:05:29

So annoying

Tammy 1:05:30

You'd check yourself into a mental institution. You wouldn't last. Now, doesn't that give that verse a whole new context?

Shar 1:05:35

Nobody's gonna listen, right? Nobody wants to listen to that. That's what it means.

Tammy 1:05:40

It's exactly what it means. And he's like, the only thing that matters is that we have charity. So let's mark that word in verse 13. Charity. Now here it is, we are going to talk about charity. And I want you guys to tell me, like what is Paul pointing us to, this excellent way? What did you learn from these verses as you read about charity?

Shar 1:06:01

I really loved verse 1-3. So we just read verse 1, if you "speak with the tongue of men and of angels and have not charity, have become as a sounding brass a tinkling cymbal. "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." He' saying you could do all things, you could have so much faith and be sharing it with everyone you know. You have so much knowledge and have so much that you could do anything with your knowledge, you know, you can have so much want and desire to serve and to give. You could give all your possessions. If you're not doing it with charity, it doesn't matter. Doesn't mean anything, you've got nothing. And so I, that is just so profound. And so then it makes you say like, Okay, so what's charity?

Tammy 1:07:04

Yeah, I was just going to ask you that.

Shar 1:07:05

If I've got to have this in order to make anything meaningful, what is it right? And then he goes into the next, you know, nine verses telling us what charity is. And so, I mean, it's just beautiful. I love all of it.

Tammy 1:07:18

Ooh, shar. Well from reading it, what did you get? What is charity?

Charmaine 1:07:23

Well, charity. I know we've probably all heard so many talks on charity and learned so much about it. But it says, well it goes through with verse 4. And it just talks about what charity is. It suffereth long. it's kind, envieth not. In all the verses that we know, charity never faileth. It beareth all things, it believeth all things, hopeth, all things. But and then it says, you know, in verse 13, And now abideth faith, hope, and charity, and there's these three; but charity is the greatest. So it's saying charity is being all these things, but I think it boils down to charity is love. Right? And we've all heard that before. Okay, so then, you know, in Moroni 7:44-47, it talks about charity, and it gives us even more. And I think it's where it brings in, in verse 47, "But charity is the pure love of Christ." And that's where we get the connection with love, and how charity is love. And there's just so much we can talk about when it comes to like, what does that mean? That it's the pure love of Christ. And I think it's, you know, it's, it's the love that we have for Christ. It's the love that we can feel from Christ. There's so much you know, and it's love that we share to others that we get from Him. And so if we don't have this love, then nothing we're doing in our life is worthwhile. It doesn't mean anything; we'd rather not have done it in the end, right?

Shar 1:08:56

Oh, absolutely. Char, great insights to charity. Awesome.

Emily 1:09:01

I love that. And one of my favorite quotes about love is from Adam Miller in his book called "An Early Resurrection," which was published by Deseret Book a couple of years ago. But he says, "In Christ, people and things can finally show up as being perfectly just whatever they are. No longer judging them in light of what I want them to be, I can actually see them. I can see their perfection and more, I can see what kind of care and healing they need. This is what life boils down to. This is what it means to love someone. Their obvious weakness cannot stop me from seeing their present perfection." And when we talk about love being kind and long-suffering, I'm like, your obvious weakness, the thing that's glaring at me that's driving me crazy, is not going to stop me from seeing how perfect you are right now as you. And that's been something that's really helped me as I've been thinking about love and what it what it really means and how do I apply that to maybe some people in my life that can at times be hard to love? I just love that idea.

Tammy 1:09:59

Oh yeah

Shar 1:10:00

But that's, that's got to be the way that Heavenly Father loves us, right, our glaring imperfections and He loves us unconditionally. Every moment He loves us for who we are, right ,with all of our imperfections. So He's asking us to love that way.

Tammy 1:10:17

Well, and when you talked about the pure love of Christ, Shar, I know. I had a very real experience where for me, that verse meant to literally have a pure love for the Savior. Like for me to love Him purely is what will allow me to love others. But I, until I have a relationship with Christ, I am not capable of loving like He loves, because I don't know Him. And this was very real for me when I became a seminary teacher in my first month. And I think I've shared this, but it was the worst experience of my life. I mean, I was trying to win these kids over and I was going to be the best seminary teacher ever. And they hated me so much, that I went to a teacher and I said, These kids don't like me, and I've made a mistake. I've left my career path as a social worker. And here I am teaching seminary, and I didn't even want because I'm just crying. And like you, I just need your help. And I went in with just hoping for so much sympathy and empathy from this man. And he opened up to Moroni, seven. And he read that charity is the pure love of Christ. He read all these to me, and I was like, yada, yada, yada. I know these verses of scripture seriously.

Tammy 1:11:21

And then he got to the verse in Moroni and here in 1 Corinthians. It says, "And charity never faileth." And I looked at him, and I go, Yeah, I get charity. I was a social worker, I love homeless people, like you don't need to talk to me about charity, okay. And then he just looked at me. And all he said was, Well, it says right here it doesn't fail. So I don't know what to tell you. And I walked away from that moment, just thinking, Oh, my gosh. The thought came, who do you love? Because right now, it's you. Like, you're worried about you and how you look and how these kids don't like you. And where's Jesus in this equation? And it gave me a real turnaround like, oh, my gosh. And going to verse 13, "that faith, hope and charity, but the greatest is charity." I mean, I had hoped these kids would like me and I took a leap of faith to become a seminary teacher, but I was missing charity. I was missing my Savior. And I spent the rest of that year loving Jesus, and then trying to love these kids. And guess what? He was right. It didn't fail. Charity never faileth. When you love, for me, when I loved Jesus, and put Him back into my life and fit Him into my equation, things just didn't bug me as much. The kids still hated me. Please.

Char 1:12:35

I doubt it. Yeah, right. Tammy?

Tammy 1:12:39

I mean, it just, the reality is, is and then when you can love Jesus, you really can love others, because you are, it's almost like He puts his goggles on you. And you just, like we've talked about, you really do look past people's imperfections. because you see as He sees because He, and it goes back to how we started, Shar. He loves you. And He knows you. Like when you love God and when you love Jesus, They know you and will help you.

Shar 1:13:03

And when you know that He's the why for what you're doing it.

Tammy 1:13:06


Shar 1:13:07

And you're doing it for Jesus. I'm doing this for Him. I'm not doing it for me. Not doing it for these seminary students. I'm not doing it for my kids. I'm doing this for Jesus, right?

Tammy 1:13:17

Like I love how I'm just now making that connection. Because I loved Him. He knew me. And God is good. And I got the help I needed.

Emily 1:13:24

Tammy, how did that look like for you? Like, just practically, what changed from before that meeting to after that meeting? Like what did it look like for you to love Jesus? I'd love to hear how like, on the ground, what did it look like?

Tammy 1:13:38

Well, it took me, it took me that night to the seminary building all by myself crying, laying on the ground, crying my eyes out that I had just made the biggest mistake of my life and praying for Heavenly Father to make it all better. And that He would give me the answer that I made the right decision leaving my whole career path. And, and then on top of that I was single. So you know, everything's always compounded by that. So, it's just like, my bad, my sad life. And I cried and cried and cried. And then I got up. And I went home and I ate dinner. And I woke up the next day, and I went back to work. And that's what it looked like for me. It looked like just one step in front of the other: trusting, having that faith, having that hope that it would get better.

Tammy 1:14:16

And then ideas would come into my mind. Like praying that Heavenly Father would help me love these kids the way He loved them. And then for me to really dig into who the Savior was, studying Him every day. And then I'd get these ideas. You should go to this kid's game, or this musical performance. I mean, I went to more losing matches. I mean the school did not, their motto should have been "We exceed at nothing." because they didn't and they knew that. But I started going to games and I started going to musical performances and I started doing some like service-oriented stuff which were talked about here. Suffering long, behaving myself un, like I don't behave myself on seemly. It wasn't about me. It was about cheering for these kids, like going back to that verse. Like cheering for them when they did excel and being for them when they didn't.

Tammy 1:14:59

And then, and it just evolved over the course of the next six months. It took six months for me to be in a place where I just, it wasn't about me anymore. I didn't care what they thought about me, I cared what they thought about Jesus. Did they love the scriptures? And then it ended up evolving into, And then the day I did, I found out on the last day of school, I was getting transferred to a different school and kids cried. They came in and were crying that I was leaving. And that was for me was like, and at that moment, I remember that scripture popped into my head, like, charity never faileth. See? I was like, Oh, he was right dang it. I was gonna prove him wrong. I really was, that was my goal. In fact, I left him and going, Well, I'll show you, charity is going to fail. Oh indeed it will. And it didn't. So I think that's what it looked like. And that's how it's always looked like for me, Emily, is just waking up the next day. Like on my mission when I had a faith crisis. And then I woke up the next day and put on a skirt and went tracking.

Emily 1:15:54

Just kept moving.

Tammy 1:15:55

Just kept moving, yeah. And I think maybe that was your, from what I read in your book, that's kind of how you handled your faith crisis, is you just kept moving.

Emily 1:16:02

Yeah. And what's what's amazing to me, Tammy, is that you found love by, I mean, I hate this, like sometimes we sto focus on our like, are we obeying every commandment? Are we doing this? Are we doing this? Are we doing this? When and it puts so much focus on us, instead of putting our focus on God, and on you know, God's love and on what God would like us, you know, and who God is, you know. Instead of worshipping God, we're kind of worshipping our own actions. And so it sounds like you kind of transitioned that way. And it's just a fully focused on God, and you still were yourself and your, you know, your authentic self like was talked about before.

Tammy 1:16:44


Emily 1:16:45

But you were, you know, really laser-focused on God and on God's love. And that just makes a huge difference.

Shar 1:16:51

Yeah. It's like that, when - was it President Hinckley on his mission - that his dad wrote to him and said, Forget yourself and go to work. It's that exact phrase, like, we need to forget about ourselves, stop being so self-centered. Stop being so focused on what am I doing? Am I doing the checklists and all those things? And go to work, like you did. Wake up the next day, put on a skirt and go back to work. Because, you know, I think we can sometimes let the 10% of the things that we're doubting, or the things that we're wondering or worrying about, you know, make us forget the 90% that we know and love, and we know are true. And so if we can just forget ourselves and go to work, the work will work it out. Right?

Tammy 1:17:32

Oh, I like that. Will work it out. Yeah, oh, that's so great. In fact, I think Emily's book is proof of that. She put in the work and the work worked it out. And we benefit from your words, and your teachings in that book. The work will work it out.

Emily 1:17:47

It was a gift to me, I write for a living. And so it was something where I thought, if I'm gonna figure it out, then writing is the way to do it. And I sat down after a year of being in a really rough spot and saying, either I need to figure it out or I need to leave God all together. Like that's really in my mind, it was a very binary thing. Like, God is terrible and I'm not going to stay, or I can, if I can figure this out then maybe I can stay. And there's something beautiful about writing things down and really thinking hard about things and thinking hard about tough subjects, and recognizing your limitations. And, you know, it's just, it's just oddly freeing, and to let a lot of things go. I think the older I get, the more I realize that there's a lot of wisdom in letting a lot of things go and recognizing that there's limits to what we know and being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Like catchphrases, we hear - being okay with uncertainty. Like there's a lot of beauty in all of that. But I had to work through a lot of this stuff that had piled up before I could get to that point in the writing process. I didn't realize it at the time, but afterwards, I realized that it was just a gift.

Tammy 1:18:57


Shar 1:18:57

Yeah, that's so cool, because you did put in that work. And a lot of us don't want to sit down and take the time for that. You know, we know there's a big jumble in our head that we can't work through. And we wish we could, you know. We'd pray about it every so often but we don't want to sit down and take the time to figure it out and to write about it. And I think you're spot on. I think there's really something to writing about. I think that's, it really helps us to put you know, our thoughts down and to feel the Spirit about what we're feeling. And I was just recently reading through President Oaks's new book, "In the Hands of the Lord." I'm amazed by that man and how how busy he was. And he still spent so much time writing. Every day of his life he wrote in his journal and he would write letters to his family and he was still so busy and he was like, Can hardly catch my breath. But I'm writing in my journal. I can hardly catch my breath, I would not be writing in my journal.

Tammy 1:18:59

Nope. Hard pass.

Shar 1:18:59

But he put in the work and he, you know, has the benefits of it and I think you've done that too, Emily. I can tell, it's really cool.

Emily 1:19:18

Thank you, you're so kind.

Tammy 1:19:19

Thank you. Thank you to both of you, what a great discussion this has been. Okay, well, then let's just take this concept or idea of work then. And we're going to connect it to a word that Paul uses which, when you, when I read this verse, I want nothing to do with this type of labor or work. We'll discuss that in the next segment.

Tammy 1:20:20


Tammy 1:20:31

Okay, I purposely left this out for the very end. And I told you, we'd come back to this. So let's go to 1 Corinthians 9. Because there is a word that is so labor intensive, I want nothing to do with it. I know Char loves it. I'm curious if Emily has anything to do with this verse. So go to 1 Corinthians chapter 9, and I want you to mark and highlight verses 24-26. Okay. 24-26. You both are laughing. Why are you laughing?

Emily 1:20:59

Is it the word 'run'? You'll run the race?

Tammy 1:21:03

I wouldn't run for my own life, who are we kidding? Emily, will you read these verses for us, 24-26, and we're gonna change up some words into what the Greek means and discuss this.

Emily 1:21:14

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?

Tammy 1:21:36

Okay, let's just fix some things in here so we can understand it a little bit better. I mean, I laugh because shar, I know you love to run. You and your husband used to run and train for races, right?

Shar 1:21:46

Yes, used to is the key word in that sentence. That's why I laughed, because I'm like, Oh, I did used to love running, but I don't run anymore.

Tammy 1:21:53

I read this. And I'm like, now I gotta run? Well, this is just fantastic. Thanks, Paul. Okay. So there's so many good things about this. So first of all, first things first, you want to circle and highlight in the boldest color you can the word 'run' in verse 24, and then in verse 26, because the word run in Greek actually translates as 'to make progress.'

Shar 1:22:14

Oh, good.

Tammy 1:22:14

Now I can do that.

Shar 1:22:15

Oh, good.

Tammy 1:22:16

So "make progress' that ye may obtain." And then in verse 26: "I therefore so make progress, not as uncertainly." Okay, so we're going to make progress, we don't have to run a race. Now we have right here where it talks about in verse 25: "Now they that do it to obtain a corruptible crown." Highlight that. This is an interesting concept. So Paul, some scholars believe this about these verses. Paul could have attended or at least heard about the Isthmian games. So the Isthmian games were held every 2 years in Isthmia, near Corinth, and the Isthmian games, they were 2nd only to the Olympic games in importance to the Greeks. So everyone reading this would know and understood this idea, the imagery of running and obtaining a crown. Now the crown that you would win at the Isthmian games was a crown made of celery. Isn't that interesting? So that's what he's refering to as the corruptible crown in verse 25. Like you think you're going to get a crown, that's a corruptible crown, it's just celery, it's going to be dead. I'm talking about a more important crown right here.

Tammy 1:23:20

So then we have the word run, which is to make progress. He's encouraging us to make progress. Run this race of life. The prize in verse 24, we know what the prize will be. But here it's everlasting crown of glory. That's the crown we want. And then we have this last weird wording in verse 26. It says: "....not as one that beateth the air." You want to mark 'beateth the air', because in Greek it actually means boxing. So I have included the NIV, the ESV, and the NLV versions of this specific verse. And I want us to read them cuz I really like it and I'd love to know the inagery in your brain when you read this. So he encourages us to run a race so we can win the pize, not a corruptible crown, but one that's incorruptible. And then he says, okay, now make progress, not as uncertainty, " fight I, not as one that beateth the air". And here's what it means. Char, will you read these verses for us.

Shar 1:24:16

Okay. "Therefore," (this is the NIV) :Therefore, I do not run like someone running aimlessly. I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. The ESV says, "I do not run aimlessly. I do not box as one beating the air." And NLV says, "So I run with purpose. In every step I am not just shadowboxing."

Tammy 1:24:37

Okay, tell me what comes to mind. What is it now that you understand this?

Shar 1:24:41

All right. I like that. Now, it makes a little more sense. Like we're not just like, it's not, it's not a worthless, the actions that we're taking aren't just doing nothing, right. We're actually going to end up making progress. Like with your shadowboxing, you're just, seems like you're just practicing You're just punching the air, nothing's really coming of those punches.

Tammy 1:25:03


Shar 1:25:04

You're just punchin the air, right? If you were actually in a boxing match and punching something, or punching a punching bag, right, you're making, building muscle You're doing something, it's not just punching in the air and building no muscle. We need a bag in front of us so we can build muscle, right?

Tammy 1:25:20

Ooh, I like that.

Shar 1:25:21

And so it's not just worthless, the actions that we take when we're trying to make progress where we're making progress towards a goal, and we're getting stronger for it.

Tammy 1:25:28

Yeah, definitely. Ooh, so good, Shar. Thank you.

Emily 1:25:32

I love that. I love the thumbs up. It's great that you said that run means making progress. I think that that's fantastic. Because sometimes when I think of running I'm like, oh, it's those four minute mile people. And there'll never be a four minute mile. And it's just not worth it because I'm going to die.

Shar 1:25:48

Yeah, or you think of running as like, endless. Like there's not a finish line, you're just gonna be running forever, right? I don't even want to start.

Emily 1:25:59

But I love the idea of of making progress and doing it in a purposeful way. I am, I'm not a runner, I tried. But I'm not a runner. But I have been doing this exercise, group exercise, which I never thought I would do, for like a year now. And there's something about just making small gains and you're just, you show up and you do the same thing, you know, week in-week out, and you feel like you're going nowhere And then one day it's easier. And then you try something that's a little bit harder, and then that feels impossible for a long time. And then, you know, then one day you're like, Oh, the muscle has grown. This is exciting. And so it's really just about being, I love the idea of consistency over intensity. Like, you're just being consistent. You're just making progress and you're trying and you're doing things with a purpose. And that's what will win you the prize is just, you know, consistent. Just being consistent. Persistency is just doing, just trying.

Shar 1:26:59

Yeah, way to pull these out.,Emily. I love that. That really makes us realize like why we're told to read our scriptures, to pray, and to do these things that are always the answer. It is, that's the consistency over the intensity, right?

Tammy 1:27:16

Yep, that's exactly it. Oh my gosh, that's great.

Emily 1:27:19

There's the practice, right? Like it's like yoga or anything else. Like it's the practice. It's the practice of prayer. It's the practice of scriptures. It's a spiritual practice. And it just takes years and years and decades and decades to kind of get good at it and to like work those spiritual muscles. And so you just have to be consistent at it.

Shar 1:27:36


Tammy 1:27:37

And this idea of just beating the air, that doesn't do anybody any good. If you're just the type of person that's boxing right now and beating the air, just sit down, just sit down, take a little break. In fact, it makes me go back to how we started. Emily, when you talked about your experience with God? Like, I feel like that maybe had been your experience, like you've just been boxing the air for so many years that you sat down, and you're like, What am I even doing? And you reconstructed this, this God that you now believe in. And you read that will come full circle in your book, which I love. But would you agree that that's kind of where you were at?

Emily 1:28:10

Yeah. And I think there was a part. I mean, I, I really, truly think that for the years that led up to it, I thought that I was, that the God I had was actually was accurate. And that there were some things that were a little concerning, but kind of when everything, when the God I've had ran into reality and everything collapsed, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what am I doing? And when I think of boxing the air I think of like, you know, you're frenetic. You're just, you're frantic, you know, you're just trying to do things. And there was a while, you know, right as I was really struggling with God, going back to beginning, where I thought that if I just found the right book, or listen to the right podcast, or did the right thing, like there was one thing that would solve it. And so I was like running around like crazy kind of boxing the air, you know, just trying to find like the one thing that would solve my problem. And then I realized that there wasn't one thing. That most times faith crises are solved over a long period of time, with lots and lots of little things that you do.

Shar 1:29:05

Making progress.

Emily 1:29:05

And so, yeah, it's just, it's just making, it's just being consistent and making progress. And it might feel really discouraging and slow sometimes. But if somebody is, I like to say, it's like the blarows in the Princess Bride, if they're telling you that one thing that's gonna solve your problem, they're probably trying to sell you something. So there generally isn't. I mean, for some people, there might be. I mean, it might be that they read one scripture, everything is resolved. But I think for the vast majority of us, we just have to take a deep breath and realize that we're in it for the long haul. And all we need to do is make progress and don't run around like crazy and punch the air and try and find the one thing that's going to solve your problems, because it's probably not out there. Youa probably are just going to have to figure it out slowly over time.

Shar 1:29:45

I love how this whole lesson has come together with your experience, Emily, because at the end of the day, God is good.

Emily 1:29:50


Tammy 1:29:51

And for the majority of us, not even that, I would say all of us need to just get up and put on your skirt, or your pants and just go and make progress, whatever that looks like for you. So wow, this has been an incredible discussion. Thank you, both of you. That's the end of our episode. It was so good. I love to discuss. I love the "discuss amongst yourselves." This was the best coffee talk ever.

Shar 1:30:16

I'm feeling verklempt.

Tammy 1:30:18

I'm filling verklempt because that was so good. Okay, this is so good. Gather your thoughts, look through your notes. And what is your takeaway from today? What's something that you will just take away from our discussion? I'll go first. I think this is so good. This is what I wrote down. I loved it when Shar said, "The work will work itself out." And I just, that might be something I need in vinyl lettering somewhere in my house. And then underneath that, I'm going to put persistently consistent, I think that is the mantra for all of us who are struggling and going through something, and we all do, it's part of life. And Satan is going to do his best to just make it so difficult. And that's okay if we just don't beat at the air. Like the work, we'll work it out and be persistently consistent. I like how both of you said that. That's my takeaway from today and I'm never gonna forget that.

Shar 1:31:07

I love that. I would maybe say that it's kind of, was talked about in most of the segments, but that God is good that you brought up Emily. I really love that. And I love the just thinking about, you know, He's good when we're making mistakes, and we're falling into temptations, you know. And He's good when we're trying to figure out, you know, what our best is and how we're unique and how we fit into this body that we're in. And He, because He just loves us so much and He's good. He's good like that. And when we're working through stuff, and we're trying to make progress, He's good and just loves us. So I just love that thought.

Emily 1:31:44

Tammy, I just really, I love the way that we ended. I love this interpreting the word run as making progress. It just makes it feel so much more doable instead of beating ourselves up about not going as fast or as long or as far as somebody, We're just making progress and everybody's at their own pace. Everybody's a different part of the body. Everybody has different gifts. And as long as we're making progress, we're gonna be okay. And I just love that. It just feels, it feels doable. And I love that.

Tammy 1:32:15

Oh, thank you. Thank you to both of you. Fun discussion. Definitely one that I will remember for a long time because it's just cool when the Spirit confirms things to you. Like, this is true. This is true. And so thank you for both of you for coming prepared and teaching truth today.

Shar 1:32:30

Oh, that was awesome.

Emily 1:32:32

And thank you, Shar. It was so good to meet you virtually.

Shar 1:32:34

So good to meet you, too, Emily. Yeah, that's awesome. This was great today. Thank you.

Tammy 1:32:40

Oh, that was such a good discussion. Holy cow. I love those women. Okay, now listen, if you haven't joined our Facebook or Instagram, go do it. If you join it, you can post things you're learning throughout the week, you can ask questions as we study. I would love to know some of your thoughts on what we've been discussing. And then at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we created a post that asks a question from this specific episode. So go answer that question, share your thoughts. You can get to our Facebook and our Instagram accounts by going to our show notes at LDS on Monday specifically for this episode and you want to go there because it's, we're gonna have the links to the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion, and a glue-in for this specific episode, so go check it out.

Tammy 1:33:20

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our incredible study group participants were Emily Robison Adams and Sharmaine Howell. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me it is edited by Hailey Higham and recorded and mixed byMix At Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

Emily 1:33:47

And please remember, God is good and you are His favorite.

Emily 1:33:52

I'm like the pancreas. I'm just gonna be like a blob. It's comparing myself to something amazing, you know.

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