The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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When my friend Becky Farley taught me the importance and power of breathing. At first I thought she was nuts because I breathe all day long, like what's the big deal with breathing? But then she taught me how to breathe. She taught me that at times in my life, it needs to be intentional and focused and with a big inhale, exhale, and that it was actually a way that our bodies do sort of a reset, a way to find peace in the midst of a very hectic and crazy day, week, month, year, and even life.

Well, doctrine and covenant section 88 is like a big, gigantic focused and intentional breath that can reset all of us spiritually. And for this episode, we are going to take a big breath together as we dive into this message of peace from the Lord given to us during our hectic and crazy days, weeks, months, years, and even lives.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we'd really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend, Mandy Nolton McAllister.

Hi Mandy. Now another awesome thing about our study group, and it's my favorite thing, is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different. And today I am thrilled. I'm so excited to introduce you to two church historians, John Heath and Matt Godfrey. Hello, you two. Hi Tammy.

Hi Tammy. Okay, this is so exciting. Um, I roped these guys into this, just so you know. They're very generous and kind to give us their time. Um, Matt, you're probably regretting that you invited me to that church history meeting, aren't you? No, not at all. We're, we're happy to be here. What did I get myself into?

Alright. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do for the church History Department. 'cause I [00:02:00] think this is really neat. We'll start with you, Matt. All right. Well, I've worked for the church history department for about 15 years now. I started out with the Joseph Smith papers. I was on the Joseph Smith papers for about 12 years.

Uh, was the managing historian of the project and really had a lot of opportunity to delve into Joseph Smith's life and who he was as a person and his documents. And then I switched roles a couple of years ago where now I do a little more outreach for the department. Where I try to make people aware of resources that the department has produced and publications that the department has produced as well.

And so that's, that's kind of what what I do now. Fantastic. That is so cool. And Matt, a little bit about, like, are you married? Do you have kids? Yeah, I am married. I've been married, uh, 30 years next week. Hey, so kind of a momentous anniversary. Yes. And we have four children. I have a daughter who teaches first grade and Spanish Fork.

Two sons who are in college and one son who's in ninth grade. Fantastic. Okay. This is awesome. All right, John, what about you? So I have worked for the church for, uh, 20 years. I'm a transplant from the Family History department. Uh, and, uh, work on the same team with Matt. His office is right across the hall.

And like Matt, we work to get church history integrated with everything that the church does. I focus on liaising with church departments, so I work closely with the people who create, come follow me and the magazines and my old friends in the family history department and other departments of the church to just help them achieve their objectives and, uh, enrich it with, with church history.

I've been married for coming up on 37 years. And we have five kids. Our oldest is a civil [00:04:00] engineer and he and his wife have, uh, two of our granddaughters. Uh, our second is a daughter and she just had our third granddaughter. She's a month and a half old. And then we have two sons at BYU and our youngest son is a, a junior in high school.

Wow. All right, so we have dads in the house and we have scholars, and this is gonna be a fun discussion because I'll tell you this, John did a presentation on section 88, and so he thought he was just gonna give a presentation, and then I come up to him and I'm like, well, now you're my guest because I need someone.

And I had been praying about who to have on section 88 'cause it's so big. And so over lunch we just kind of talked about ideas and you were like, let me get back to you. And I'm, I'm so appreciative that you did and then you roped Matt into this. And I'm excited to say we're gonna have Matt back in a couple of weeks to talk about Zion's camp because that is gonna be a great discussion.

Um, so I'm just really grateful for the two of you and for what you're gonna teach us about section 88. 'cause there's so much going on here. And I'm just gonna start by saying this to everyone. We are not gonna cover all of section 88. There's so much in here, but I highly recommend a deep dive into this section.

Take the time to read this just like my friend taught me. Take the time to really intentionally breathe. 88 is not to be glossed over. And so really dive into it. And today we're just gonna give you some cool things that we think are important and talking points, and we're gonna dive into some verses that we love.

And so these two men have joined me to do this, and I think you're gonna really like it. So if you wanna know more about my guests, you can see their pictures in their bios, which are found in our show notes at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with. And let's dig into Doctrine and Covenants section 88.

Okay, you two. First things first, what did the Holy Ghost teach you? As you read Section 88, I'll tell you, Tammy, the Holy Ghost taught me what a [00:06:00] wonderful and powerful savior Jesus Christ is just in and through everything. And it is remarkable to me how personal salvation and exaltation is. And as I read doctrine in Covenants 88, I really walk away with a feeling that it's possible, it's, it's really gonna happen.

Is there a specific verse that stood out to you about the savior in section 88? Many, even early on, he that ascended up on high and descended, descended below all things in that he comprehended all things that he might be in and through all things the light of truth, which truth shineth this is the light of Christ.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Wow. Thank you John and what John shared. This is really cool. In section 88, what we love about this section is that actually you, you wanna kind of put parentheses around verse six all the way to the end of verse 13 because it's almost like some scholars believe that he inserted this really important doctrinal teaching about the savior and he's his connection to light.

So bracket off verses six through 13 and write revelation on the savior and then equals light. And the Lord light appears so many times in these verses. So it's pretty amazing how we get this insertion. Like, let me teach you about Jesus before we get really deep into doctrine of section 88. I was just the conditions of mortality, kinda like having blinders on.

Sometimes we talk about it as a veil, but it's kind of hard to see things as they really are. And Section 88 is a revelation on the way things really are. And we know those things because of the light of Christ. And uh, when we. Sense and feel the light of Christ in our life. We're getting a perspective on the way things really are.

Okay. That's so cool. Oh, please. I'm putting that right next to section 88 [00:08:00] because it's, that is awesome. Next to section 80, I just put the way things really are, what a great subtitle for that section. Thank you John for sharing that. That's so cool. Okay. Matt, what about you? So I had similar, uh, impressions as, as John, and they, they kind of go around what the section teaches us about light and about the savior.

And one of the things that I love about the Holy Ghost, you know, we, we read about how the Holy Ghost brings all things to our remembrance. And so as I was reading this section and reading about Jesus Christ being light, it actually brought back an experience that I had many, many years ago when I was in high school and, and was a teenager.

And was really having a, a hard time feeling God present with me. I was having a hard time feeling the spirit and just feeling like God was there. And I remember talking to my parents about this. And the next morning after I had talked to my parents, my mom shared a scripture with me, um, from First Thessalonians chapter five, verse five, where the apostle Paul teaches us, ye are all the children of light and the children of the day.

We are not of the night nor of darkness. And when she read that scripture to me, it, it really resonated with me that because of the covenants that I had made at, at the time, you know, my, my baptismal covenants, that I really was a child of light because Jesus Christ is light. And so as I read all of these verses that talk about the savior and about his.

Power and about, uh, how he really is the light of the world. It just made me remember this, this teaching of of, of my mother. Um, she passed away a couple of years ago, so it was kind of a tender mercy for me to, to remember something that, that she had taught me. [00:10:00] Oh, Matt, thank you for sharing that and that personal story.

Let's do this right now. Grab a yellow highlighter if you have one, and starting in verse six until you get to the end of verse 13. Highlight every time you see the word light, and you're gonna see it throughout section 88, but right here, there's so many mentions of the word light, and then I just put in my scriptures to the side.

I wrote the word light, and then I put that reference that your mom shared. First Thessalonians chapter five verse five. Is that right, Matt? Yes, that's right. Love the children of light scripture. What's your mom's name? Uh, Audrey. Alright. Thank you Audrey for teaching your son that, that is so awesome. Wow.

Have you ever used that since with your own children? You know, I've mentioned that experience before too, though. Um, I don't know how much it resonated with them, but it, you know, it's, it's kind of a special thing for me, probably more than, you know, 'cause it resonated with me. So thank you for sharing that.

I love it. This is great. What the Holy Ghost has taught you too. Okay. So that's what the Holy Ghost taught them. And now what I wanna know from them as church historians is what's going on at the time in the church that brought about section 88. So they're gonna tell us all about that in the next segment.

Segment 2

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Okay. You two church historians tell us what is going on in the church at this time to warrant the need for section 88. Well. I it, I think it's important to remember that the church is not very old. This section comes in December of 1832. The church was formally organized in April of 1830. Many people in the church are in Kirtland, but the church has started to establish a center of the church in Jackson County, Missouri.

And this is a challenge. There are other challenging things going on in the country. There's, uh, [00:12:00] conflict in South Carolina and there's some rumors that they might secede from the union. Um, the Civil War is still way off in the distance on Christmas Day. Joseph Smith is pondering these things. He's read newspaper reports of the troubles in the South, and he receives this revelation that is now section 87 on war, and that's heavy.

It's a hard thing. And so two days later, he. Convenes a gathering of the elders of the church, people whose names we recognize, Sidney Rigdon and Orson Hyde and his father, Joseph Smith Sr. And his brothers, Hyrum and Samuel Newell, k Whitney, Frederick g Williams, Ezra Thayer, and John Murdoch, and invites them to pray and, and they open the meeting with prayer and then they pray again and, and he instructs them.

That revelation is to be received after fervent prayer. So they in turn, pray separately and vocally and they pray for some specific things, right, Matt? Yeah, they do. They're praying to receive revelation in the blessings of heaven, and they specifically ask the Lord to reveal to them about how to build up Zion.

What the duty of the elders were at the time, because many of these people who were attending these meetings had been out preaching the gospel. You know, Samuel H. Smith and Orson Hyde had been out preaching, and Joseph had called them back to Kirtland in December to meet together as, as a council, and to just kind of figure out more about what their duties are.

Like John was saying, the church isn't very old at this time, and so we see a lot of meetings that are held in these early periods where the Saints are wondering about what their duties are. And there are several sections in the doctrine covenants like Section 68 and some others, where people have asked Joseph, what are we [00:14:00] supposed to be doing?

You know, what, what is the duty of a high priest? What is the duty of an elder? And so they're still trying to figure these, these kinds of things out. And so that's one of the things that, that they're praying about here. Hmm. Zion had a really specific meaning and a really general meaning to those elders.

The Lord had revealed to them that Zion and the center place of Zion would be Jackson County, Missouri. Yes. And so to them there. Then in many contexts, Zion meant Jackson County and things in Jackson County were not going well. There was real conflict between the leaders of the church in Jackson County that was.

That was their great and shining hope. Everything was gonna be built there. The Lord had instructed them to build a temple there, but that effort was stalled and there was contention between the leaders of the church in Zack Jackson County, and the leaders of the church in Kirtman, and Joseph Smith would shuttle back and forth a couple of times between Missouri and Kirtland.

The which we've pointed out is pretty far away. It's, it's not like a day trip. It's gonna, it, I think we saw, isn't it about almost 800 miles between Ohio and Jackson County, Missouri. Yeah. It's, it's it's hundreds of miles Yeah. Between the two. Yeah. And, and you know, they're, they, they don't have cell phones, they don't have like instant messaging here.

And so when they're trying to communicate with each other, it's through the mail and it takes a letter three weeks. You get from Kirtland to Jackson County in three weeks to get back. And so you have letters that are crossing and kind of miscommunications, and so there's a lot of discontent that's, that's going on at this time.

Absolutely. And you grew up in Missouri? I did. I served my mission in Missouri. I know, that's so fun. We figured that out. There's not, there's not a great straight path from Kirtland to Jackson County, right? Yeah. [00:16:00] Right. So it's an effort and, and having two centers of the church at this time is a real challenge.

Yeah. So that's some pretty important insight because it did mean Jackson County, Missouri. What was the other meaning of Zion? Then Joseph Smith had, um, long. Been inspired by and had taught the saints about Enoch, Zion and what Zion means as a community. And that larger concept of striving to be pure in heart and to have no poor among you and to share resources.

The church was still pretty cash poor. Right, Matt? Yeah. And kind of land rich and trying to figure out how to provide just the temporal needs of all these people who were walking away from their former lives and, and often their former livelihoods to, uh, physically gather with the saints in these two centers of the church.

Mm-hmm. Um, Kirtland and, and Jackson County. So the, the spiritual underpinnings of Zion were also very present in the prophet's mind, and he was working to help the. Uh, larger church membership, understand those spiritual principles and strive to live them so that they could receive the kinds of blessings that the Lord had in store for them, many of which are promised with renewed power in section 88 here.

Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. I, I, I just add something to, to what John's saying here. You know, the Lord had told Joseph Smith months before this that if you are not one, you are not mine. And so that kind of emphasized the importance of unity when you're trying to build up Zion. Mm-hmm. And at this time, there wasn't unity between the leaders [00:18:00] in Missouri and the leaders in Kirtland.

And so, one thing that I think is really neat about this section is that it kind of talks about how. You can build up Zion. Some of the things that that need to happen, even when it's talking about something like establishing the school of the prophets, it's talking about how you need to regard each other as brothers and sisters, and you need to see each other as equal and nobody's above one another.

And so I think this is kind of the Lord's way of, of saying, you know, here is some counsel. Here's some advice for building up Zion, for getting yourselves more unified so that we can really establish a Zion community. So I have a question for you two, because I'm looking at this and Section 88 is so prolific and it is prophetic.

It is awesome. There's just so much goodness in this. I love how in this section heading that the prophet Joseph Smith designated this section as the olive leaf. He said, plucked from the Tree of Paradise, the Lord's message of peace to us. And I read this and I think he's only in his twenties. Maybe 27.

And you two have had a lot of time to get to know the prophet Joseph Smith through his writings. I wanna know what your thoughts are about the fact that someone so young is a prophet. Because when I hear prophet, I think of old man with a beard who's had a lifetime to receive revelation. And like you said, John two years old, this church is so young and Joseph Smith is so young.

Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on him and his age and being a prophet and receiving revelation. So, yeah, Joseph is, is kind of a remarkable person. Um, when you think about it. He's not someone who's perfect. He has imperfections. You know, the Lord points out his imperfections frequently in the revelations that he, that he gives to Joseph.

And one of the things that I, I think I love about how the Lord called Joseph Smith [00:20:00] at such a young age, and here he is, you know, he establishes the church when he is 24 years old. Here we are. You know, he's, at the time that he receives this revelation, he just barely turned 27. And I think the thing that I love about this is that the Lord kind of lets Joseph learn as he's going.

Um, sometimes I think when we think about Joseph Smith, we think he knew everything at once. You know, when he, when he prayed, when God and Jesus appeared to him, well, he knew everything that that was gonna happen in the church. And that just isn't how it was. The Lord led Joseph line upon line, precept upon precept.

He let Joseph sometimes wrestle with things. He let Joseph try things before the Lord corrected him and said, well, that maybe didn't work. Why don't we try this? And he let Joseph at times fail and get up and try again and do some other things. And as long as Joseph was humble and repentant, he was still called as, as a prophet.

I love that because I think that's how the Lord works with all of us. He knows that he's working with imperfect beings as, as Elder Holland has taught before. And he knows that we're gonna make mistakes, but that's okay. That's how we grow. And so I, I love that, you know, Joseph didn't have to know everything at once, but the, the, the Lord let him progress and let him learn and let him make mistakes and corrected him when necessary.

And then you see Joseph as he moves along, kind of gradually grow into this role, um, as a prophet and as a great spiritual leader for the Saints. Wow. And, and we are so blessed to have such a rich record of the Lord's interactions with Joseph and, and with other leaders of the church. But with Joseph in particular, we learn.

[00:22:00] In that record how the Lord deals with his children. Yeah. And one pattern of many things we learned from the record is the Lord teaches principles first. Look at the way section 88 is organized, we have this just rich, uh, lengthy, detailed discourse mostly on principles. Yep. And a lot of those principles hue toward how do we sanctify individuals?

How do, how do we sanctify Zion and prepare Zion for the Savior's return? And then, and then we have all these practical things and, and we'll, we can get into those, we ought to get into those in some detail, but, but principles first. And uh, and so the Lord often teaches Joseph principles and then let's Joseph do the application.

Yes. To figure out how to make those principles work in his own life and in the lives of his family and the lives of church members and the Lord is the same with us there. And there's a reason for that. And oftentimes when I'm struggling with something and wish that some situation in my family or work, church, responsibilities would just work out.

Just can we just make this work out? And I pray and I pray for results, right? Yeah. And then I have to remember that the Lord is teaching me principles and wants me to apply them in ways that are consistent with with his teaching, because that's how I grow. Thank you so much, Sean, for that, because now I'm thinking first of all, Matt, thank you for your testimony of Joseph Smith.

I really appreciated everything you said about him and what you said about him. We need to continue to remember and [00:24:00] know, and I think you're right. It shows exactly what kind of Father God is and how he works with each one of us. And then John, when you taught us about how 88 is just filled with principles and then the practical comes later, the application, I really appreciated that because you're right, there's so many principles in section 88, and so let's do this then in the next segment, let's jump into some principles then and find out what it is that the Lord's going to teach us so that we can apply at the very end when we're done with this discussion.

And so in the next segment, Matt's gonna teach us some principles.

Segment 3

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I asked these two men to just share with me some talking points, something that they really felt strongly about when it came to section 88 and they did not disappoint. And so I'm gonna turn the time over to Matt because he's gonna teach us about how Section 88 connects to the temple when, by the way, there's not even a temple yet.

Not even really a revelation on building the temples. Like there's been a little bit of wording in the sections about a temple, but nothing overtly. And so I'm excited about this discussion, so hit it, Matt. Alright. Yeah, I, I love this section and what it teaches us about how we can find peace in our lives in tumultuous times, um, and how the temple is kind of central to that.

So one of the things that this section does, uh, there's quite a bit in here about what's gonna happen before Jesus Christ returns again to the earth. Uh, so when you're looking at what's going to happen, that's described quite a bit in verses, uh, 87 through 102 in section 88. That's really where we get this description of all of the things that are gonna happen before the second coming.

And a lot of those things are, you know, not very pleasant. And some of them are, are downright scary. You know, you're looking in here just at verse 87 about the earth trembling and reeling like a drunken man about the sun [00:26:00] hiding its face, the moon refusing to give light and being bathed in blood. Um, there's wrath in in indignation.

There's earthquakes, there's thunderings, lightnings, natural disasters, men's hearts failing them for fear. And so. You can read those verses and you can be like, man, it's gonna get really bad before Christ returns to the earth. And I'm not sure I wanna live through that. You know that? Yeah. That, that sounds pretty scary to me.

Um, but then, you know, towards the end of this revelation, the Lord commands the saints in Kirtland to build a temple and to do things in the temple that will help bring them peace. So he tells them in verse one 19, organize yourselves, prepare every needful thing and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God.

And when I read that verse, it's like all of the fear that I have that came through reading those other verses kind of goes away because I think. Yeah, that's, that's what a temple is. A temple is a place where we can pray, where we can build our faith, where we can learn, where we can come closer to God and learn more about who he is and about who our savior Jesus Christ is.

Now as, as you were mentioning Tammy, at, at this point in the church, there is not a temple that exists in July of 1831. The Saints have been commanded to build a temple in Jackson County. They dedicated the land for that, but they hadn't really done anything else to build that temple at, at the time. And here the Lord's telling the Saints, well, you need to build a temple in Kirland as well.

And [00:28:00] John and I were talking about this a a little bit yesterday. I, I think it kinda showcases how the Lord knows everything. Mm-hmm. So he tells the saints to build a temple in Jackson County. I think the Lord knows that in the fall of 1833, the Saints are gonna be kicked out of Jackson County and they're not gonna be able to build that temple there.

Now you can say, well, if they would've made some different choices, maybe they would've been able to to build the temple. And that's that's true too. But I think the Lord probably knew how this was going to turn out. And so here he tells the Saints in Kirtland, okay, you need to build a temple in Kirtland, because I think the Lord can foresee that the Saints have a little bit more of a stable community in Kirtland, and they're gonna be there for a few more years, and so they're gonna be able to build a house of God there.

So, you know, you could kind of refer to this as the Lord's contingency plan. You know, since there's not gonna be a temple that's built in Jackson County, we're gonna build one here in Kirtland so that we have a temple here on the earth. And so, as he tells the saints about what to do to build this temple, again, it just helps me to understand more about how central the temple is in helping us find peace in difficult times.

And I think we're living right now in difficult times, at least for me. You know, I, I look at the world around us and things seem to be in upheaval. There seems to be a lot of contention going on. There's, there's not much peace in the world today. So I love that President Nelson and our other church leaders have emphasized so strongly over the past several years about how we can find that peace in the temple and about how important it is to go to the temple and make the covenants there that bind us to our savior Jesus Christ, so that we can access his atoning power.[00:30:00]

And even just in the last General conference when President Nelson said, regular worship in the house of the Lord increases our capacity for both virtue and charity. Thus time in the temple increases our confidence before the Lord increase time in the temple will help us prepare for the second coming of our savior, Jesus Christ.

We do not know the day or the hour of his coming, but I do know that the Lord is prompting me to urge us to get ready for that great and dreadful day. And so when I read section 88, again, having that backdrop of what President Nelson just taught us, I'm thinking this is exactly what the Lord was telling the Saints here.

He's telling them my second coming is not that far off. I'm going to be returning to the Earth again. It's going to get difficult. It's going to get hard, but you are going to build a temple and we're gonna build temples and they're gonna dot the earth so that my people can go there, they can make these covenants, and they can find that peace that they need in the temple, peace in their personal lives, uh, peace in their callings, peace in whatever aspect of of their lives.

And so that's something that really I think, stood out to me, um, about this section is just how connected the temple is with the second coming of the savior, and with us being able to find peace and joy and to bind ourselves to the savior there. Has there ever been a time in your life, Matt, where you've gone to the Temple for Peace a time when you were looking for it?

Yeah, definitely. Um, you know, there, there have been lots of times in my life, uh, where I find myself, you know, feeling uneasy about things. I, I suffer a bit from anxiety. Um, I like to say that I don't ever remember a time in my life, even when I was little, when I wasn't worried about something. Hmm. And even if I [00:32:00] wasn't worried about something, then I was worried that I wasn't worried about something.

And so it's kind of this, uh, strange cycle that, that my brain does. And so there, there are times when I feel, uh, not at peace internally in, in my life. And I find that when I go to the temple. When I just am able to be in there and feel of God's love for me and learn more about him and about the savior, that it helps calm me down, uh, somewhat.

It doesn't take the anxiety away, the anxiety's still there, but it helps me deal with it better and, and kind of helps me be able to feel his presence a little bit more, more strongly. Well, I love your application of this verse and the teaching on the temple to our lives today because I agree with you on what you've said.

Everything you've shared is true. I will be second witness to what you've said is true. I like how you started out by talking to us when you said that the Lord commanded them to build a temple and they didn't really this idea of like they don't know what they're doing but, and that the Lord knows down the road, like they're not gonna build it in Jackson County, but he also knows down the road they're gonna be in Ohio.

So he commands them to build it in Ohio. And this idea that the Lord knows what's coming and so then you connected it to our prophet who knows what's coming and how he's encouraged us. Go to the temple. Go to the temple. And I'm just having this full circle moment because I loved, when I was studying section 88, 1 of the things I noticed is.

In verse 119, I have a cross reference next to it, which is section 95 verse three. And so in your scriptures, everyone put 95 verse three because the Lord is saying in verse 119, okay, I need you to build a temple, but then they don't do it. Joseph Smith doesn't jump on it right then. And then you get to section 95 verse three, and this is where the Lord then says to him and I, I think this verse is great.

And Matt, will you read that for us? Sure. It says, for you sinned against me, a very grievous sin in that you have [00:34:00] not considered the great commandment in all things that I have given unto you concerning the building of my house. That verse to me is the Lord saying, no serious, Joseph, like, I need you to build a temple right now.

And six months had passed until this revelation is given. And I'm thinking the Lord's like, no, I'm not kidding. Like I need you to do it now. And I think it's just a couple of days later that Joseph then begins like, okay, we're building a temple. He calls the committee and they start to build this temple.

And this isn't 1833. So here's where I'm going with this. This is what I learned. So I was studying section 88 and then every Sunday morning, CBS, Sunday morning, that's the TV show, it comes on. My husband and I love to watch this show. And so we will turn it on. 'cause sometimes they have to have really good, feel good stories.

So here I am watching this CBS Sunday morning. I'd just gotten done studying section 88, and then this verse where the Lord's like, no, I'm serious, build now. So then they start to build. And then Kirtland temple's dedicated in 1836. And as I'm watching the CBS Sunday morning news, they're talking about the economy today and what's going on in our world.

And then just briefly, this historian mentions, well, the first time that the United States really had an issue with a recession was in the panic of 1837, and the United States had a major recession. And I was, and my ears popped up because I was like, wait, the panic of 1837. I've never even heard of that.

And they went on to talk about how horrible it was for the people in the United States. And then I thought, this is crazy that the Lord was like, you're gonna have to build this before 1837, because no one's gonna have money in 1837. So get it together, build the temple now so you can have it done. And then I, I just, I just love how he knows beginning to end.

Like God absolutely is like, no, I see what's gonna happen. And so now we go to our prophet today who says, I see what's going to happen. You're going to need to start attending the temple. I know what's around the corner. And so I just, my brain is spinning with all of this information and I I love that you taught us that he knows what's going on.

So get to the temple. [00:36:00] Get to the temple. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great, great thing to think about. You know, it, it was, it was still hard for the Saints to build the temple. They, they had to rely a lot on donations from a lot of different people in, in the church to build it. But when the panic of 1837 hits, I mean, that's what leads to the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society, which is the bank they had tried to establish.

And that's really what kind of brings about a lot of the, uh, apostasy in the church in Kirtland. And so you're, you're 100% correct, they dedicate the temple in 1836. They have about a year period. Where they can kind of bask in the glory of the temple and of having completed it. And then everything just falls apart in Kirtland in 1837.

And it, I mean, it's a comfort to me to know that the Lord is in charge and that, you know, if we do what our leaders tell us to do, we're gonna be okay. We're gonna be able to get through it. It doesn't matter what happens, we'll be able to get through it. We'll be able to have that joy in our afflictions like President Nelson has taught us about as well.

And it's interesting because just a, you know, a few days after this revelation comes, uh, Joseph writes a letter to William W. Phelps in Missouri and he tells William, we've been commanded to build a temple here in Kirtland and we will do it. We must do it. So you can tell he's really gung ho about it. But then I think like with all of us, sometimes life gets in the way of things and we get distracted by other things that, that are going on.

And so our enthusiasm. Maybe Wayne's a bit, or we forget about what we're supposed to do, or we start focusing on something else. And sometimes the Lord has to remind us, Hey, wait a second. You remember what I told you to do that you haven't done yet? You need, you need to do that. And especially with the temple, you know, that's, that's something that's, that's important 'cause I can get distracted mm-hmm.

In my own life where I have good intentions of going to the temple and then suddenly it's three weeks [00:38:00] later and I'm like, oh, I haven't gone to the temple. I need, really need to get there. And so I like that even Joseph Smith maybe had a moment like that where he got distracted and the Lord had to bring him back and say, no, you really gotta focus on the temple.

Which makes God even better because I love that. If he had waited, I mean the six months, just six month buffer time, the Lord gave him six months buffer time. 'cause if the Lord had given the revelation in June of 1832 or 1833, it would've been too late. 'cause then they would've been building the temple into 1837.

Isn't that great? God's like, I know he's probably not gonna do it at first, so I'll give him a six month buffer and then I'll come back to him. You're right. I think God does that with us so many times. He gives us revelation and we think, well, I didn't do it right when I did. Maybe the Lord gave you buffer time.

So it's okay to follow through on the revelation you got a couple months ago. It's probably still right. Oh, that's so cool, Matt. I love that. Thank you for pointing that out. Well, that was a good discussion on Temple in section 88. Okay, so now we have more, and John is gonna teach us his talking point, and I can't wait for you to tell us what you found in section 88.

We'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 4

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Okay, John, here we go. And I love everything you wrote and what stood out to you. And you're gonna, I like how you said, I want to explore the fascinating relationship between individual righteousness. I mean, it's everything we've talked about, holiness, san sanctification, and community righteousness. So I'm, I'm excited.

Let's dive into this. Hit it. And, and you know, this, uh, dovetails really nicely with what Matt has taught us about the temple because building the temple was not just about building the building. The people needed to be prepared to receive what the Lord had in store for them. And he called it in those days, the endowment of power.

And that was revealed in Kirtland. And then an even more refined endowment was revealed in, in navu. But, but to be prepared, they needed to [00:40:00] turn their hearts to the Savior and be refined. And it's striking to me that Section 88 teaches them how to do that again, first principles and then some really practical advice.

And we quote that practical, those practical verses a lot. But the, the principles are striking first. The Lord teaches them about the kingdoms of glory. 14 through 40, um, really teaches us about the, uh, the three kingdoms of glory and the laws that. That apply to them and there are some real important principles in there.

Verse 34, the Lord teaches verily I say unto you. That which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. President Oaks teaches us in a talk called the Challenge to become that he gave in 2000. He says, the final judgment is not just an evaluation of the sum total good and evil acts what we have done.

It is an acknowledgement of the final effect of our acts and thoughts, what we've become. The gospel of Jesus Christ promises the incomparable inheritance of eternal life, the fullness of the Father, and reveals the laws and principles by which it can be obtained powerful. So then we get some more insight into what that's actually like.

Um, verse 40 says, for intelligence, cle with unto intelligence, wisdom, receiveth wisdom, truth, embrace with truth virtue, loveth virtue, light, cle with unto light, mercy, half compassion on mercy and Klamath her own just justice, continue with its course and Klamath its own judgment, go off before the face of him who sit at upon the throne and goeth and execute with all things.

I I have, I rejoice in some really wonderful friendships in my life where I just [00:42:00] have some kindred spirits who I really resonate with. And I like to think of the celestial kingdom as a, a place where that kind of resonance is there. And this affinity principle teach, I think teaches me that. That which is fine and high seeks and is attracted to that, which is fine and high.

It's kind of a virtuous cycle. And as I've pondered that, I've really realized that these friends in my life who bring out the best in me, um, make it easier to be righteous. You know, salvation is certainly individual and it's a matter between us and the savior, Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. But the Lord knows we need people around us to reinforce our goodness.

So he puts us in first families, and then he organizes the church into wards and stakes. And that's how Zion is organized. Remember Matt pointed out that what were these elders praying for when they, uh, received section 88? They wanted to know how to build up Zion. And that, I think that question is, uh.

Really critical in our day and time. Zion is not just in Jackson County anymore. It's not just in Kirtland anymore. It's in stakes of Zion around the world. And center points in those stakes are certainly the temples. So here's section, here's the Lord teaching Joseph and the early church leaders of the church that they need to, to build people up.

And later he'll give really practical advice about how that's to happen. You know, that really begins in verse one 18 and he talks about being organized, um, establishing a house, and Matt's mentioned all of these. Then look in, [00:44:00] in these verses at the elements that. Pertain to how we interact with each other.

Certainly we shouldn't be lazy or unclean or lustful or prideful, but then he says in verse 1 24, cease to find fault with one another. I'm getting my marker so I can mark all the ceases. These are the cease verses, and these are good. My kids don't like it when I point out in 1 24 to cease to sleep longer than is needful.

But they can come back to me and say, well cease to find fault one with another when I tell them that. So, yep, those are good. Yeah. Uh, the one, no, the one I'm looking for is 1 25 right after it. Um, clothe yourself with the bond of charity as with a mantle, which is the bond of perfectness and peace. So we really do bless each other and need to bless each other as we have experiences in our families and in our wards and church units.

There's great opportunities to build Zion in, in how we interact with each other, and I believe that that really comes down to personal. Sanctification, your goodness, Tammy makes it easier for me to be good. And Matt's example makes it easier for me to live the gospel. Mm-hmm. There's a, a scholar, uh, who I really admire by the name of Terry Warner, and he puts it this way.

He says, perfect honesty and simplicity consists not in devoting attention to oneself, even when one's aims are lofty, but in forgetting oneself and responding to others in love according to their needs. We're not oysters or abalones existing in shells, even though that's how we may feel when we become self-involved.

We are members one of another connected to each other and especially to God [00:46:00] by spiritual sensitivities and obligations as profound as eternity. And just for that reason, we become most ourselves when we are most true to God and to one another. We become most right with ourselves when we are most right with them.

Mm-hmm. Like that. I like, that's from a fuck he gave, uh, at A-B-Y-B-Y-U devotional called Honest, simple, solid and true. Wow. That, and I like that you shared that quote because that is Zion right there. But we live in a world where I do believe many of us feel like the, like you said, the abalones. We feel like we're in clamshells.

Maybe we enjoy our clamshell even. Um, you know, we've talked about how we're in a pandemic of loneliness right now where people would just feel so isolated. And I just now am thinking that the call for Zion could never be more needed today than at any time in the history of the church just to build up Zion today.

Because we have with, and that's interesting because we have access to everything. And yet. Not, not Zion sometimes, right? Because of the choices we're making. So I love this connection you're taking about how we're spo the light cle with un to light. I love that verse. But then verse 1 25, I'm grateful that you pointed that we have all the ceases in 1 24, which are fun.

But I have a question about verse 1 25. I wanna know your thoughts on this because it says that we are to clove ourselves with the bond of charity, as with a mantle. What do you think that means as with a mantle? Well, I, I love the image in second Nephi four verse 33. Oh Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness.

Oh Lord, will thou make a way for my escape before my enemies charity? Which I think it, we say it's the pure love of Christ. And that's true, but I think that also in makes it the perspective of Christ. I think that we can't. Really love others as he loves them. [00:48:00] Until we can see them the way he sees them.

Our enemies envy and pride and jealousy and self-centeredness, um, all vanish. When we're centered in the love of the savior, then we have confidence that all this craziness that's going on in the world isn't really going to reach us or harm us for long. Mm-hmm. Because we're centered in the love of the savior and we love them and we can interact with them in ways that will actually make things better.

I like that you just connected us to that second Nephi scripture because that idea of him taking the robe, asking the Lord to wrap his robe around him, and from what I understand the word mantle means it's another word for robe or tunic. And going to the story of Elijah and Elijah when the mantle fell and it was actually like a physical robe that they believed that he would put on to become the new prophet.

So it's a physical thing that we're being asked to put on. And the idea, when we put that on that charity, how beautiful that it becomes this bond of perfectness and peace. So I, I'm grateful you connected us to that. Can I also interject something in there? Yeah. Sometimes when I, when, you know, we were working on the Joseph Smith papers and working on some of these, uh, revelations, we would often turn to the 1828 edition of Webster's Dictionary to look up words to see So good.

Yeah. What would, what they meant at the time. And one of the definitions that it has for mantle in there is a cover that which conceals as the mantle of charity. And so when I read this, you know, kind of going along with everything that, uh, you have all said about this, it also kind of brings to mind this notion that charity can be a [00:50:00] cover and that it can cover things that annoy us about different people, you know, I, I that I think about.

I like that. I think about people that I interact with. And sometimes I have a difficult time with some people and there's things about them that, that bother me. But if I have charity that can cover those things and I can still love them even in my annoyance, you know, it can kind of help take away that thing.

And that, that kind of reminded me too, of a talk that Elder Christofferson gave several years ago called Why the Church? In which he's talking about why do we have to go to church? Why do we have a church organization? And one of the things that he said in there is that it's a way for us to practice charity because we're put in wards.

Mm-hmm. And we're put in with people that we may not get along with and that we may not see eye to eye with, but we develop charity for them and we develop love for them as we interact with them. And so I, I kind of like that too with, with, uh, mantle there. I kinda like that too, to cover the annoyances.

Matt is a great example of that. Um, he knows he's, he's annoyed by a lot of people. Yes, I am. That's, he's covering people all the time. What he's at. I'm just kidding. He knows I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan, and he is developed a lot of charity to tolerate that. I just, I, I just have to look past that, John. I know.

Yeah. Hey, don't be mean to the cards. They're our people. Matt, come on. That's right. John and I, we love the Cardinals. Well, we've got you out. Number, number, the 1980s Cardinals, I should say. Yeah. I'm, I'm a Pittsburgh Pirates fan, which is why I don't like the Cardinals, because more often than not they beat the Pirates so Well.

There you go. Doesn't everyone No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, that's, that's totally true. But, but, but you are a fan then. Yeah. Totally true, but harsh nonetheless, Tammy. Oh, that's so funny. But you know, this has been a really cool discussion and I like the way that you've gone with this John [00:52:00] and sharing that connection to charity.

Matt has been so cool because that right there, I, that is Zion right there. That is what we're asked to do. That is how we build Zion. And never considered that you put a mantle over the, the mantle of charity over things you don't like. 'cause we are people and we are imperfect. And our prophet Joseph Smith was imperfect and it was you.

I love how you pointed out, how many times does he get called out for his sins, which again makes me believe him as a prophet of God. Because if I was going through and putting the doctrine and covenants to publish. I would be taking those parts out so fast, I'd be like, we don't need to mention that. God called me to repentance and the fact that he would even say it, I don't know what it's like to give a blessing, but I know that if I was going to give a blessing and something was for me personally, I'd just skip over it.

Like, and this revelation about me, we're just not gonna say that out loud and I'd pause during that part. So I just, I love these connections to Zion, a Zion people, and we don't often get to these verses in section 88. We focus so much on the first part. So thank you John and Matt for getting us into and having us dig into these verses.

That is so awesome. Okay, so we've mentioned how section 88 is called the olive leaf, and it is a section of the Lord's message of peace to us. But what I noticed is, as I was reading section 88, there sure are a lot of action words in this section, which seems opposite to peace if you're asking me, because if I think of peace, I'm just resting.

So in the next segment, we're gonna look at these action words and we're gonna find out how they could actually bring us peace. We'll do that next.

Segment 5

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In section 88, there are so many action words in this section. So everybody grab a highlighter. We're gonna mark up these section, these, these action words that we have, because I don't know about you, but for me, action does not equal peace. Are you guys action people though? Do you like to move? Does that give you peace when you're out running?

You guys runners? Uh, I, I do run a little bit, yes? Mm-hmm. I do like being active. [00:54:00] Okay. But I won't hold that against you. Same with you, John. John shaking his head like he's a runner too. Yeah. I gotta tell you, peace for me is just like laying, just resting. I don't wanna go do anything active. And so when I read all these action words, I thought this is asking a lot.

So here's what we're gonna do. We are gonna read a couple of verses and highlight all these action words. And I asked Matt and John to help me do this. So I'm gonna start, and I'm just gonna do verse 63, and then I'm gonna turn the time over to Matt and he's gonna show us the verbs in 74 through 76. And then John is gonna show us the verbs in 77 through 81.

And then after we do that, each one of us are gonna talk about which verb could possibly bring us peace. So here we go. Verse 63, we have draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you. So I highly draw twice, seek me diligently and you shall find me. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

So I have draw, seek, ask, and knock. And the interesting thing I noticed about Seek Me is this is the only reference. Where the Lord is saying oftentimes in scriptures he says, seek, seek, seek. But right here is the only time I can find in the doctrine and covenants where he specifically says, seek me, not seek, and you shall find.

So now he's telling us, here's what I want you to seek. Seek me. And I love that idea of seeking. Okay, Matt, tell us what are the action verbs in your verses? Alright, so there are quite a few in these verses, starting with verse 74. And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom? A commandment that you assemble yourselves together and organize yourselves and prepare yourselves and sanctify yourselves.

Yay. Purify your hearts and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean. And so you have things that the Lord is doing in these verses. So the Lord gives, uh, unto them the Lord, [00:56:00] uh, makes them clean. Then the things that we're supposed to do, assemble together, organize ourselves, prepare, sanctify, purify, cleanse.

Yes. Uh, verse verse 75, that I may testify under your Father and your God and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation, that I may fulfill this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you when I will. So again, things that the Lord will do, testify, fulfill, uh, make.

And then verse 76. Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth. So the Lord gives the commandment we continue in prayer and fasting. Thank you. John. Tell us your verbs. 77 through 81. So it starts with teach in verse 77 and then reiterates that. How teach you diligently teach intentionally, um, and consistently teaching both things of the spirit things, uh, you know, doctrine and the law of the gospel, but also things of secular society, things which must shortly come to pass the wars and perplexities of nations and the judgments that are on the land.

So teach, teach, teach that you may be prepared in all things, things that the Lord does when I shall send you again and things that we do to magnify the calling. So we are to teach, magnify the calling then in 81 to testify and to warn and to warn again. Warn the people, warn your neighbor. Excellent. Good job.

Okay, so of all the action words, I'm just curious, is there one that could bring you peace? I think for mine it's uh, the end of verse 74. It's something that the savior will do that he will make. Make us clean. But I, I think it's [00:58:00] interesting, and hopefully this isn't going off on a tangent, Tammy, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

So we often say, you know, we come to the Savior and the Savior heals us. We don't perfect ourselves and then come to the savior. But in verse 74, it tells us to sanctify ourselves, to purify our hearts, to cleanse our hands, and then the savior makes us clean. And I wonder what's, what the Lord is trying to tell us with that?

Wow. That is, I love how you made that connection and how much do we love that it first just starts by preparing yourselves. Yeah. And what that must look like for everyone to get into even a place where you're willing, I mean, I know for me, it took a lot of preparation for me to be willing to actually go in and talk to someone, to go through the repentance process.

Like 21 years it took to prepare me because I just thought, I'm never gonna talk to a bishop about anything. 'cause I know he'll look at me from the podium like this. I know what you did. You're a little jerk. And I'm telling your mom, like, I was so terrified and no one had really prepared me about I, Satan prepared me.

He was the one who was telling me, if you do this, you're gonna get in trouble. And so it took me a while to actually prepare myself, but then this idea to sanctify and purify my heart and cleanse my hands and my feet, maybe for me, I had to come to the po time in my life where I was like willing to really do that.

Like whatever it took to make me like clean before the Lord, I had to be in a place where I was willing to do that. Maybe that's kind of what it's talking about. I knew that the savior could do it for me, but I wasn't willing to come to him to have it done yet. I, I think you hit the nail on the head there, Tammy.

It's, it's our willingness. To turn our hearts to the savior. Marna teaches it in, uh, Mar I 10 32. He says, yay, come unto Christ and be perfected in him. And then here, here's where it starts. And [01:00:00] deny yourselves of all ungodliness. Mm-hmm. And if he shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you?

That by his grace you may be perfect in Christ. Mm-hmm. So we have to turn away from the worldly distractions from our own human tendencies to serve our selfish interests and love him more. Finally, yeah. Come to the point that we're willing to do it his way and then he'll help us be how he is. I like that.

And that's when we'll find peace too, right? Yeah. When we're able to do that, that's when the peace comes. So, love that. I do too, Matt, I'm so glad you asked that question. 'cause again, going back to this idea of being a temple text or getting the people ready for the temple, I mean, 74 is exactly what that is.

It's getting us ready to then have a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of all the things that he says in these verses. It's all preparatory. That's pretty cool. I like that you connected it and ha and, and made us think about that. What about you, John? Is there a word for you that's peace? I think in 77 through 81 where it says that ye may be prepared in all things, the Lord's teaching us how to be prepared.

My dad was a trial attorney and uh, he was the great hero of my life. And he would told me over and over again, you know, there are a lot of smarter attorneys, but, but I can be prepared. He worked really hard to be prepared to, to be in court. When we think about the calamities that are coming, the calamities that are here, if we will do what the Lord tells us to do, we'll be prepared.

Wow, that's a great one. Okay, I am gonna do a little tangent here though for the two of you. 'cause this kind of just struck me and I wanna know your thoughts on this. And I know you've written about this, Matt, I'm pretty sure you have because when I [01:02:00] read verse 74, to clean our hands and our feet, and one of the verses we never ever talk about in section 88 is how it ends.

So if we go to the very last verses and it talks about the ordinance of washing of the feet. Like I understand having hands clean, but having feet clean is interesting to me. And I wanna know your thoughts. Talk to me about the ordinance of washing the feet. I didn't realize it was an ordinance. Yeah. And why don't we do it?

Yeah, maybe we do. I don't know. Tell me about it. Because there's a great article that's been written about the ordinance of Washing of the Feet, and you can find that I, I taught, you guys are gonna be so proud of us because on the podcast we taught everybody what the three little dots are when you go to the section in the doctrine and covenants and how you can do the resources.

Yay. That's great. Great. It took us to some really great articles, but talk to me about those verses. Yeah, so it's interesting that, uh, about three weeks after this revelation's given Joseph Smith organizes the first school of the prophets. And so that first meeting is held, uh, towards the end of January, 1833.

And in that meeting they performed this ordinance of the washing of the feet. And I think, I mean, this hearkens back to the last supper, um, when the savior was on the earth, when he washed the, uh, apostle's feet, the disciple's feet at that time. And I think it's an ordinance that shows humility. Um, it shows the necessity of being humble, being willing to serve, of really kind of getting at what the savior said about, you know, really, if you want to be the greatest of all, then you serve the most, you know, that's, that's really what what makes somebody, uh, great in the eyes of God is, is the way that, that they serve.

So they perform this ordinance at the School of the Prophets and they, uh, continue to do so. I think when, as the school is being held throughout 1833. When the Kirtland temple is [01:04:00] dedicated, we have in there washings and anointings that are performed in the Kirtland Temple. And that's one of the interesting things about the Kirtland Temple.

The endowment, as we know it today, is not ever performed in the Kirtland temple because that doesn't come to Joseph Smith until he's living in Navu. But we, there are the washings and anointings that are done in the Kirtland temple, which, which we still do today. And so, I don't know, you know, I, I, I haven't studied it enough to say, well, this is why we don't do the, the ordinance of, of the washing of the feet.

But I think it kind of gets subsumed in those ordinances of washing and, and anointing that occur in the temple. Very cool. Look at me taking advantage of my church historian friends. Now I had to ask that question, so that's so great. John, do you have anything to add to it? Uh, I'm thinking about, I.

Symbolism of Pete and the Lord says to Moses, take off your the shoes because the ground you're standing on is holy ground. Our feet are what we put on the foundation. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and we build on the rock of Jesus Christ. That's our, our connection and removing interference, cleaning. I like that. Having a pure, solid connection to the foundation.

A counter symbol is the great statue that Daniel sees in vision. And what does it have? It has feet of clay that represent corruption or corruptibility. So here is an ordinance symbolically removing the worldly elements that separate us from our foundation in Jesus Christ. It's a great connection. I'm glad you added that.

Thank you. I'm adding that to my scripture, so very cool. Okay, well we have one more action word, and this action word is very personal for the savior. We're gonna show you what that action word is in the next segment.

Segment 6

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[01:06:00]

I'm curious to know, do you two have a dog or did you grow up with a dog? Oh yeah. Grew up with several dogs. Oh, you did? Oh yeah. How many? Yeah. Some, some storied dogs. A sequence of them. The two most famous in our family were some little Shelbys named Corky and Jigs. That's so fun. And, and then, uh, with, you know, when we had kids, we had a, uh, wonderful, enormous golden retriever.

Mm-hmm. That's pretty cool. I didn't know that history, and that's gonna help us a ton. What about you, Matt? So this is, this is kind of funny. Uh, my parents did not like animals. So when I was a child. I would say, can we get a dog? And they would always tell me, no, you can get a dog when you have your own family.

And I said, okay, fine. And then I got married and my wife doesn't like animals. And I said, can we get a dog? And she said, no. So when you have your own family, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. I'm on that camp like, we don't have a dog and our kids want one. And I remember they would always say, can we please get a dog?

And I, I married into a husband who had two children at the time. His wife passed away. So I married a into a 7-year-old and 9-year-old. And then I had babies immediately. And so they were like, can we have, can we please have a dog? And I was like, no. 'cause we have babies, so I can't do both. And then everybody grew up and then I'm like, I don't want a dog.

It's so much responsibility. And so, yeah, I am. No thank you. Can but John, for you to say they're storied, what does that mean? Oh, just one was quirky, was kind of. Slender and jigs was the pig. He, he would, you know, push corky away from the, the food bowl. You know, my younger brother would hook jigs up to a harness and run a rope [01:08:00] over a pulley to see and then put bricks on to see how much jigs could lift with his, with this harness.

I'm trying to think of the other, that's funny. Rookie and jigs stories chasing cats around. Just all kinds of mischief. So I have a question for you then. When it comes to dogs, since you're the one that has the most experience with dogs, talk to me about the command stay. How do you get a dog to stay?

Tell me about that. I have no idea. Would you ever use it? Tried. Tried and Oh yes. Tried and tried and tried and tried. Yeah. We, we, uh. When, when we had kids, we thought it would be a good idea for them to have a dog. And so we got our golden retriever, Keisha, and she was a pure bred golden retriever. And I thought, I'm gonna teach her all, all the commands.

And you could tell her to, you know, first you have to have her sit, there's a progression till you have to have her sit, and then you have to go down and then you say, stay. And she did not like that. Mm-hmm. And, and, and I would walk away and she would just inch forward and stay again. And she would just roll her eyes, look at me, roll her eyes, and then inch forward a little bit.

And on a, by about the third stay, she'd stand off and just come right over to me. Oh, like, no, I'm, I'm not doing this. So I'm, I'm not that much an authority on dogs. I have no idea how to get a dog to stay. This is perfect because there's actually a word in section 88 that's repeated. That means the word stay and the savior is actually using it with us.

So grab something to mark your scriptures with. Let's go into section 88. We're gonna go to verse 56, and in verse 56 it talks about, this is like one of the greatest parables, and it is the only parable found in section 88 and in this parable, it's about us and I, I love it. We could study this in depth for hours, but the [01:10:00] word here, when the Lord's talking about the world, and he's talking about coming and and being with us.

In verse 56, it says, and the Lord of the field went, and the field means the world in scripture. The Lord went to the world and he went unto the first laborers in the first hour and teed with him all that hour. Highlight the word teed right there. Then we're gonna go to verse 70. And in verse 70, he says it twice.

Terry ye, Terry ye in this place and call a solemn assembly even of those who have the first laborers in the last kingdom. And then go to verse 84 and he's gonna say it again. Therefore, Terry ye and labor diligently. And so Matt, you'll be I. You'll be so proud of me. 'cause I went to the 1828 Websters dictionary to look up what the word Terry means.

I'm a big fan of that. And the word Terry means to stay, to abide, to remain. I thought it was interesting too. It also means to stay in expectation of something. But I love this idea of staying. It also means to wait or linger. There's a connection to this with a Hebrew word, which is yesha. And I've learned that when I've been studying Hebrew for the past couple of years, which means to just to sit down and to dwell and to remain, and it also means to endure.

So now this kind of changes the meaning for me to Terry means also to endure and to stay. Now there's a really cool. It's Terry Scripture chain. And so we're gonna put this in our show notes. But next to these verses of Terry with this word, we wanna go to third Nephi chapter 17, verse five. And so Matt, will you go there?

And then John, I'm gonna have you go to Luke chapter 24, verses 28 and 29 9. Okay. So Matt, will you please read third Nephi chapter 17, verse five, where we see the word Terry or Tarried? I will, and I'll just say this is my absolute favorite scripture in the book of Mormon. So it's what? It's wonderful that you asked me to read it.

Yeah, that is [01:12:00] so cool. Okay. After you read it, tell me why. Okay. And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus spoken, he cast his eyes roundabout again on the multitude and beheld. They were in tears and it looked steadfastly upon him as if they would ask him to Terry A. Little longer with them. Um. So, yeah, I had a, another experience when I was in high school.

You'll kind of get the idea from this, that sometimes I don't feel the spirit real strongly with me, and sometimes I feel distant from God, and that's happened throughout my life. Um, but I had an experience where I had been, you know, feeling distant from God again. And then I was up at one of my friend's cabins at Bear Lake, uh, with a few of my friends.

So it was right after we had graduated high school, just being with them and we had some good talks about the gospel. We were all preparing to go on a mission. I just felt just such a great feeling and a warm feeling. I could feel the spirit again with me as I was there. And I remember thinking, ah, I don't wanna leave.

You know, I, I, I don't wanna leave this cabin because I worry that then I'm not gonna feel the spirit like I'm feeling it right now. And so when I read that verse. I'm like, I know exactly what those knee fights were feeling right then. I didn't wanna lose that feeling. I didn't want the savior to go. I just wanted that to, to stay.

So that's, that's why I love that verse so much. Oh gosh. That is a great story. Thank you for sharing that, Matt, and that personal application to it. Boy, God saw you today. That's pretty neat. Of all the verses. Yeah. Like, that's cool. Okay. So yes, they were like, please Terry, please stay with us. John, there's another story about this word.

Terry, will you please read Luke chapter 24 verses 28 and 29. Sure. And so this is when the, uh, disciples are on the road to Emmaus. [01:14:00] Yes. And the savior joins them and they don't recognize him yet. They must have sensed something because it says, and they drew Nye under the village wither they went and he made as though he would've gone further, but they constrained him saying.

Abide with us or is toward evening and the day is far spent. And he went in to Terry with them. Wow. Very good. So he's, he's tearing with these people and I like how you said they must have known something, but they didn't totally know who he was, but to trust him enough to invite him in at night, this stranger.

And then what does he do? He administers the sacrament. Yes. An an ordinance that binds them to him. Mm-hmm. And that's when their eyes were opened. Yeah, absolutely. I. Thank you. Okay, there's one more scripture. We're actually two, but they've saved basically the same thing in our Terry Scripture chain. We're gonna go to Matthew chapter 26, verse 38, and this is when the savior takes the apostles and they're going into Gethsemane.

And then in this verse, he says in verse 38, then said, he unto them, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death. Terry ye here and watch with me. So there's the word Terry, and then he'll say this in Mark chapter 14, verse 34, the same scenario in Gethsemane, he says, and sayeth unto them, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful unto death.

Terry ye here and watch. And so what I think is beautiful about this word, Terry, is. Christ, while he did Terry with others, there was a time in his life where he needed others to Terry with him, and it becomes a very personal word for him. And so he knows how important it is to have someone. Terry and I, I love this connection in doctrine Covenant section 88, because now he's asking us to become a Zion people.

And in this [01:16:00] beautiful parable he's saying, I will Terry with you. But then he goes outside of the box and says, and then I need you guys to Terry in this place and Terry with each other. And that is how you become a Zion people is that you remain, you stay. But I love this idea that you also can. Wait and endure with each other.

And I think that's what the savior asks, just endure with me while I'm in Gethsemane. And then I love the promise in the verses of scripture that both of you read that he will endure with us in whatever we are going through. And so it made me think about this word, Terry. And I'm just gonna throw this question out there, and I didn't even prep you two with this, but I'm just curious to know, do you ever feel like there's a time in your life where the savior tarried with you, where he stayed or remained or endured with you?

For sure. Could you share a story? Um, the last couple of years in my life have been really full, um, full of, of, uh, some challenging things. My parents were nearing the end of their lives. My, my mom passed away last July and my dad passed away just in January. And I'm sorry. And, and you know, I remember thinking prior to that, boy, things are going really pretty good.

I, I don't have many real worries, and I thought, I wonder what's coming? Well, what was, what was coming was my parents got to the point that they couldn't live on their own anymore. Just, just physically. Um, my mom needed full-time care and, and I have wonderful brothers and sisters, a couple of them, three of 'em in, in Utah, one of 'em in California, and their homes and their, uh, family situations just weren't, and my parents' situation just wasn't such that they could host my parents even though they offered.

And so we found a, a great place for my parents to live in an assisted living center, [01:18:00] and we all kind of rallied around to make that possible. But I was the one who needed to be there day in and day out. It's about. Five miles from my house. And, uh, and with everything else going on in my life with a, with a busy church calling and busy at work, that was, that was really hard.

And as I've looked back on that, I can see that the savior has been with me and helped me to make it through that time and help that time to be meaningful to me. And, and he still tears with me as I look back on that time and I'm still processing the things that went on in that time. I'm seeing more and more kind mercies as those memories can consolidate and, uh, and become sweet to me.

Hmm. John, thank you. And I, I'm sorry for your loss, but I appreciate your tenderness with the savior, enduring and tearing with you. I believe that. Thank you. What about you, Matt? Yeah, so I think, um. You know, I'm, I'm not gonna talk about one specific time, um, but as I mentioned before, you know, I, I, I deal a bit with anxiety and so there's not really a lot of times in my life where I feel at peace.

You know, there's always just kind of times of worry and times of feeling anxious about things. But whenever, you know, I'm feeling particularly troubled or particularly worked up, I find that if I say a little prayer in, in my heart that I can feel the savior there. Uh, sorry. I can feel 'em there with me just, uh, being with me.

And that's something that kind of helps me get through that. So, [01:20:00] again, it's not like one specific moment, but there have been many moments where. I just kind of picture him sitting beside me and just helping me endure, like, like you were saying. Uh, so that's, that's been something that's been kind of special for me.

Matt, thank you. I appreciate you sharing that. There are so many people listening who also struggle and experience anxiety and just your witness of how the savior works in your life is so profound. So thank you. That's powerful, Matt. Thanks. Thank you men. That's the end of our episode. We're done. This has been so neat.

I, what I've loved about our discussion is going back to how we started, just this breath of fresh air or this feeling of peace. 'cause I dunno about you, but for the last two hours I've just been so at peace. It's been fun to discuss this and that doesn't come often in my life. And I love that we felt the spirit.

This was so cool. So thank you. Thank you. So just gather your thoughts. Yeah. And all I want you to do is share just what's one eternal truth that you learned from our discussion today, or something that just came back to you like, oh yeah, that is true. And I'm gonna go first. 'cause I felt like I was the guest.

So I'm gonna go back to how I started. John, I love that you said section 88 is the way things really are. I thought that was so good. And that's exactly what we learned. And that section 88 is just filled with principles and then practicality, which we saw today. So thank you. And then Matt, I will forever and always love that you taught us about charity and the mantle and that it sometimes we have to take the charity to cover people and they're imperfectness, so that that's how we build Zion.

And I thought that was so great. So thank you, both of you for teaching me that. For me, the, the big takeaway is, and I think it's in the, uh, said best in the words of elder brook hale's mortality works. Mm-hmm. This all. Works for those saints. If they would build the temple and prepare. If we will go to the temp.

If we'll [01:22:00] prepare to be in the temple and worship in the temple and make and keep the covenants we that we make there, um, then we will be redeemed and sanctified by Jesus Christ and ultimately will receive his presence and celestial glory. That's a good one. Mortality works. That's good Matt. Alright for me, um, you know, when we were talking about how the Saints didn't really act immediately on the command to build the temple, it just made me remember Elder Raban, uh, speaking in general conference about acting on the first prompting mm-hmm.

That, that we get and how important that is. But I don't always do that. And so, uh, I really liked your concept, Tammy, that perhaps the Lord gives us a buffer zone. That, uh, he, he may know if he prompts me to do something, that it may take me a little time to do it, and maybe that's okay with him. And he gives me that buffer zone.

And, and I just really thought that that was a, a, a comforting thing, uh, to hear. That's fun. I believe it. God knows I need a buffer zone. I got the a, DD, so he'll give me the inspiration and then I'll go down the road about a million other thoughts and I'll come back to it. So, thank you. Thank you to both of you guys.

This was such a great discussion. Oh, and now Matt, you know how it works. So when you come back in a couple of weeks, awesome. I'm excited to learn about Zion's camp. That's gonna be so fun. So yeah, get brushing up on that. I will. I lo, I love talking about Zion's camp, so that'll, that'll be fun. Well, and I'm gonna tease this because there's something about Zion's Camp where women helped fund it.

Yeah. And they were called a specific name for being the funders of Zions Camp. And so Matt's gonna tell us all about the women. I can't wait. It's gonna be fun. It'll be good. Oh, goodness gracious. That was such a fun discussion. Okay, what was the eternal truth that you learned? I want you guys to share. I would actually love to know when has the [01:24:00] Lord tarried with you?

If anyone has a story or an experience, please share it. 'cause I think that'd be really cool to have a record of moments when the Lord tarried with you. So go and join our group on Facebook or Instagram so you can share your thoughts. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we're gonna post a Quest, this question from this discussion.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday, and go there anyway, because it's where we're gonna have links to the references that we use today, as well as a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Matthew Godfrey and John Heath. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember, oh, please remember, you are God's favorite.