The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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So the very first year I was hired as a full-time seminary teacher in Utah. I taught the doctrine in covenants, and I'm telling you right now, you guys, I know you've heard me say this before, but it was brutal. Now if you're thinking, but wait, what about the Old Testament? I'm telling you right now, old Testament's my favorite.

In fact, you guys were only four months or 18 weeks away from studying the Old Testament. I can't wait. I'm so excited. Okay, but back to church history. So the reason why it's so hard for me is because I didn't know any of the stories or anything about the people who played a role in those stories. But once I learned about them, church history began to sing for me.

And now I can say that I do love church history. Now listen, it's still hard to teach, but I love it a lot more. But I love it, especially when there's a story about a woman. This week we get to study doctrine and covenants, sections 89 through 92, which are awesome sections. But something really cool is that it contains the story of one woman, and my guest today is the only person I know who can truly tell her story, and I think you're gonna love it.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into your scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come following study.

Just like my longtime and good listening friend, Julie Hunter. Hi Julie, and hi to all of your cute family, Kurt and all the kids. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, but sometimes I'm only joined by one, and that is the case for today. I am so excited to introduce you to author and historian Brent Rogers.

Hi Brent. Hi Tammy. Thanks for having me on. Oh, I'm so glad to have you here. Okay, you guys, Brent Rogers. He works for the Church History Department. He's a historian, he's an author, and we'll tell you what he's an author of when we get closer to it, because you're just gonna love this so much. But Brent, give us a little history or give us a [00:02:00] little background about yourself.

For people who've never met you, how would you describe yourself? That's a, that's the toughest question I'm gonna get today. I think. Um, well, I've been working for the church history department for. Little over 13 years. I came to work on the Joseph Smith papers in 2011. I was working on a graduate degree in history at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln.

Um, before that I did, uh, my undergrad at San Diego State University and, uh, master's degree at Cal State University, Sacramento. I have a lovely wife named Ashley, and we are the proud parents of three good children, a 15-year-old named Keegan, a 13-year-old named McKenzie, and a 10-year-old named Braxton.

And between all their music and sports and other activities, we stay pretty busy. Uh, and so I, I guess the real way to describe me is hectic parent, uh, and Oh yeah. And I try to be a, a historian and, and author, you know, uh, for my work, uh, as well. That's a great way to describe you. Okay, well if you guys wanna know more about my guest and see his picture and read his bio, you can find them in our show notes, which will be found at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday.

So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with. And we are going to dig into sections 89 through 92. Okay. First outta the gate. Brett, my question is, what did the Holy Ghost teach you this time as you were reading these sections? It's always a fun question, I think, to think about. Um, I think when we read the scriptures, our minds are enlightened and sometimes we come up with new questions that we want to inquire about.

And so both section 89 and 91, uh, I thought a lot about questions and taking our questions to the Lord, because both of those scriptures are results of. [00:04:00] Questions being asked, whether it's Emma Smith and Joseph Smith inquiring about the use of tobacco, or in section 91 Joseph Smith inquiring about the apocrypha.

Mm-hmm. These are questions that are taken directly to the Lord. And, and then he provides an answer through these revelations. And so I think, uh, something that I always really love about studying church history and that that was, I was reminded of this week was the importance of, of taking our questions to the Lord.

But I would, I would also point to doctrine covenants, uh, section 90 in verse 24. As something that really stood out to me this week for my study, it reads, search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good. If you walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith, you have covenanted one with another.

And now this council is specifically given to the first presidency of the church, but I, I mean, as with mm-hmm. Scriptures, it's also for any reader, any seeker, uh, anyone who's seeking to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. It is a, an encouraging and reassuring statement to be patient and to be active, to be faithful, to remember the savior and to remember the covenants that you made.

And so that particular verse really stood out to me as something that I, I was, uh, being taught and reminded of this week. I have a follow-up question. I love that you fixed you, that you chose that verse, and I wanna know this, how, how do those words search diligently, pray always, and be believing? How do they play into your career path as a historian, specifically a church historian?

Well, the search diligently part to be a historian that, you know, that's a. Requirement you have to search diligently, [00:06:00] um, in the records of the past, in the artifacts of the past. You have to really, uh, be constantly seeking after bits and pieces of evidence in order to do your best to recreate and then analyze or interpret or, or tell the story of what happened to people in the past.

And so, um, the, the searching diligently is something that, um, that I really enjoy, whether it's searching diligently in the, the scriptures or in. In books or in the records of the past. You know, it's one of the blessings of being able to work in the church history department is I get to work in a library.

Yeah. And I get to go search diligently all the time. Um, the pray always part and, and the be believing part is part of the, the equation for me as well. Because, you know, sometimes when you're searching, um, you know, maybe you hit a dead end or you hit a wall or like, I just don't know where to look next for, for more information about this person or this topic or, or this, um, event that's happened in the past.

And, um, you know, I think that for me, and I bet if we were to ask others of my colleagues that if they were, if they were to be asked the same question, they'd say that, you know, that that prayer and seeking, you know, asking questions about where. Where can I find more? I want to tell this story about this person who had this experience in the church, and I want to tell it well, but I need to know more about this.

Um, sometimes, you know, you come back to it after you've prayed and, and it's amazing what you're able to find. So yeah, I I, that's a great question and, and does fit right in. And what's funny that right when you said that, I was like, wow, I, I should have thought that, right? Because that's part of, part of my job is, is to search diligently.

And, and prayer and belief is a part of, uh, [00:08:00] finding and telling the stories of, um, the members and, and the people of the past. Well, when you were reading it, I'd never read it that way. And all of a sudden I'm like, I have a historian reading this verse to me, and it seems like he does this on the regular, he searches diligently, he pray, always be believing.

And then I thought, I wonder also, has it ever played into a time when you've discovered something that was uncomfortable? Hmm. How does it look for you? If you've ever had church history that's uncomfortable? Do you have to pray about it and be believing even though you're like, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think so.

And being a historian and having to grapple with, there's a lot of uncomfortable things about the human past, just generally. Yeah. Um, and then when you get into things that happened in the, you know, the 19th century, you know, a couple hundred years ago, what, uh, the way that, that things happened that we don't totally understand because we only have a fraction of the historical record.

And so we can't answer every question. We can't know every why and where for of the, the things that happen. And so we can't always fully explain. And that's a hard thing sometimes when you come up against something that you're. You know, you, you yourself, have questions about, and that's where faith comes in.

And I, I truly believe that, um, that, you know, as part of our, uh, revelatory mandate to keep a record, we, we have done a good job as a church over the last couple of hundred years, but we don't, in our records, we can't recreate every moment, every thought, every explanation of every decision that was made.

And, um, we have to have some faith and some trust that, that those things were done Yeah. For a reason. What reason is not always clear, but history is one of those things that I think we have [00:10:00] in our, a pretty recent past, really. Right. Only a couple of hundred years worth of history. And so I think there's an expectation that we have an answer to everything that happened.

Um, even those uncomfortable. Challenging issues that, you know, maybe surround topics such as plural, marriage or race or, you know, uh, women and priesthood, you know, some of these things that are, that are challenging to, to us and to our members, but we don't, we just don't have great documentation on a lot of those things.

And so we have to believe in a higher, uh, plan and have faith that, that the lord, that the savior is at the helm and that he is guiding the church and that he's doing the work with some fallible people. Right. We right we are all, uh, nobody's perfect. Nobody from the past was perfect. And that's something that, that God and, and Jesus have done.

Yeah. Throughout, throughout human history is work with. The humans that they have and yeah. Have done a pretty good job, right. So mm-hmm. Um, having faith in, in them to say like, Hey, even though I don't know everything, and I, even though I, you know, I, maybe I want to know everything, and I, oh, I Google something and here, here is an answer.

But as that answer rooted in any sort of truth. Yes. Well, some of those questions that are out there about some of those difficult issues, you know, I've, I've searched for the, the answers in historical documents, and some of them just aren't there. So if there is an answer, it is a speculative answer on somebody's.

Their, their, their own, um, opinion rather than rooted in an actual fact. And so you have to take all those things with [00:12:00] a, a bit of a grain of salt, right? Yeah. Oh, Brent, I absolutely love the way you responded to that question and everything you said because it just confirms to me something that a guest said two weeks ago, she's a therapist and she wanted us to remember, and she said, all knowledge is partial knowledge.

And I just loved that because that if you can approach church history like that and it just supports what you just taught us. Like we don't know everything. We only know partial parts of it. And so that just as a reminder, like we think we know everything, we don't, all knowledge is really just partial knowledge.

And so there's a lot in church history search and I, I just think you sharing that verse of scripture to search diligently, pray always, and still be believing even if it doesn't make sense. Yeah. So thank you very much. That was a great verse of scripture to share and I appreciate that you talked about taking our questions to the Lord.

So in the next segment then we're gonna take a question to the Lord that Joseph Smith had, where there's a principle with promise attached to it and Brent's gonna give us the history behind this section and we'll do that next.

Segment 2

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Let's go to Doctrine and Covenant section 89 and grab something to mark your scriptures with, and we're gonna just highlight the first four words in section 89 verse one, and here it goes. It says a word of wisdom. There we go. That's the first four words in this fabulous section. You can probably guess what it is based on that.

This is the word of wisdom. Now, I asked Brent to come and give us the history behind how the word of wisdom was received, and specifically what was happening in order for this word of wisdom to be received. That probably made the same thing, but there's more to it. I don't know. Brent's gonna give us a really great history lesson on what's going on in Kirtland, Ohio around February of 1833.

Hit it. Brent, I'm so excited. I have something to mark and I'm just gonna write notes. Well, I think the first place to start is, uh, what, what is [00:14:00] happening with the church members is they're, they're meeting together. Uh, and I shouldn't say all church members. It's, it's largely men, elders of the church who are meeting to hear instruction in a school called The School of the Prophets.

And this was called for by Revelation in December of 1832. So just a couple of months earlier. So in section 88 versus 78 through 80, it talks about the need for the school. In fact, let's go to that section, uh, 88 in the doctrine covenants and read, versus 78 through 80. Okay. And there it reads. Teach you diligently and my grace shall at attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly.

In theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God that are expedient for you to understand of things both in heaven and in the earth and under the earth. Things which have been things, which are things which must surely come to pass. Things which are at home, things which are abroad, the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land and the knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms that ye may be prepared in all things.

When I shall send you again to magnify the calling, where unto I have called you and the mission with which I have commissioned you. And so this is the, this is the part of the revelation that, that Joseph Smith and uh, says we need to. Come together, you elders of the church who are going to go out and, and be ambassadors for the Lord.

Mm-hmm. We need to get together and have instruction so that we can, we can go out and have ha have you ready? Have you prepared. Yeah. And have a message for the world. That's awesome. Something really cool about this that I learned in studying the Old Testament is. [00:16:00] Joseph again, one of my favorite things about Joseph Smith is how much he restored.

He didn't come up with it like, it wasn't like, oh, we should probably do a group of men and call a school the prophets, because these verses tie beautifully to Old Testament time. And in the Old Testament specifically, my favorite story is about a woman found in Second Kings chapter four, and she goes to the prophet at the time and says, my husband's died.

And you probably know him because he belonged to what's called the Sons of the Prophets. And they used to, it's basically where we get school the prophets from is this idea an Old Testament time that men gathered to study scripture to lead the people and her husband's, they believe her husband's name was Obadiah.

Not the same obadiah that wrote the book of Obadiah, but. He was a man who hid prophets in a cave when Jezebel was trying to kill all the prophets. And so she's like, you know him because he belonged to the sons of the prophets. And so I think this is awesome that he's just restoring this school of the prophets and he's trying to set up and establish the kingdom and the first presidency and the corner of the 12.

Like it's so cool to watch this all play out and be restored. So I love that you had us go to those verses. So let's go back into section 89 though, and keep telling us Bra Moore. So now they have the School of the Prophets. Where are they meeting and what's going on? The school meets for the first time on January 22nd, 1833.

So that's about a month before section 89 is received. They're meeting in New K Whitney's store, the upper floor. There's a room there that they're meeting for the instruction and Right. Adjacent to that room is the room where Joseph Smith is doing his work on the Bible translation or his review and revision of the Bible, as well as the place where he sits, uh, in solitude and, and, you know, thinks and prays and receives revelation.

Um, I think it's, it's sometimes called the translating room. It's sometimes called a revelation room. It's, but it's kind of where Joseph is doing his major spiritual work. Hmm. So they're, they've been meeting in the, the school room [00:18:00] next door for instruction that is, uh, meant to prepare the elders of the church for their ministry to go out and teach the gospel, but they're bringing with them there.

They're tobacco, they're, they have it whether they're chewing tobacco or smoking tobacco in their pipes. Tobacco is very widespread, uh, very used, very widespread at this time, as is alcohol, alcohol consumption and tobacco usage are, we're probably at, uh, I don't know what the current estimate is, but historical estimates at different times had put it at three to five times the rate of our current societal norms.

Oh, wow. So if you think about, you know, how alcohol and tobacco are used in current American society, the usage was three to five times higher than that in the early 1830s. And reform movements, temperance movements were becoming prominent features of American Christianity at this same time. So there's a lot of concern, societal concern about alcohol usage and tobacco usage.

And so it's not completely out of, um. You know, the understanding of Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saints that are at that time, but there's still heavy usage of it in Kirtland with members of the church. If, if they go back into that room where they're meeting for instruction and you think about most of these men are using tobacco, spitting their, their tobacco juice on the floor, just spitting it straight on the floor and which just blows my mind.

I can't even, like, not even, uh, yeah. Okay, so just spitting on that's just what you did, that was just kinda what you did. Yeah. I mean, some places would have spittoons, but even if someone used a spittoon, they would, could miss and end up on the floor anyway. And then you think about. The, the smoke from the pipes.

[00:20:00] There are accounts that say that you could hardly see across the room. And remember, this is a small room, so it's not like you're trying to look very far. So there's that much smoke and, and tobacco use going on. And, and so it's pretty filthy if you think about that. Yeah. It's a, it's a pretty filthy environment and somebody has to clean that up after the school lets out.

And unfortunately for her and for maybe some others, it's Emma Smith who's doing a lot of that cleaning up, and after a month of cleaning up this filthy, disgusting nonsense, she's, she seems like she's pretty well tired of it, right? Yeah. And rightfully so. And so she says, you know, to Joseph like, Hey, this is, this is not acceptable, right?

Like, this is, um, I don't wanna do this anymore. Yeah. It's, it's disgusting behavior and I don't wanna do this anymore. Right? So isn't there something that can be done? And so, Joseph. He, he says, you know, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good point. We're teaching the elders of the church, their ministry to teach the things of God.

And is this the best atmosphere to do that in? There's filth, there's tobacco smoke, there's tobacco juice everywhere. And so Joseph. Goes to the Lord with the question about the heavy use of tobacco, and particularly to the conduct of the elders with regard to this particular practice. Mm-hmm. Um, and so on the evening of February 27th, 1833, there were about 20 people in the school room there to meet for instruction in the School of the Prophets.

And Joseph Smith emerges from the adjoining room on the upper floor of the New K Whitney store with this revelation in hand that we now know as section 89 of the doctrine covenants that starts, you know, a word of wisdom for the benefit or the council of high priests, uh, and the church and also the Saints in Zion.

And I mean, you can spread that out for anybody. Right. And it's interesting to, to see the accounts of, [00:22:00] of what happens next. Zebo Coltran, John Tanner are a couple of these men that are there and they choose to abstain from tobacco. Immediately, they're, they're among those who throw their, their pipes and their wads into the fire and, and watch it burn.

And, um, and so I think there's this very interesting part about like the, the immediacy that some of the, the men in that room choose to say there's a revelation. It gives us this, this very, uh, prescriptive stance on tobacco use and coffee and tea and alcohol, and that they right then and there stopped using those things.

But that's not, and I don't, I hope this is okay to go into, but that's not, not everybody in the room did that. And not every one of the saints heard the revelation and immediately stopped using all of those things. So let's pause there for just a minute, because this is such a fun discussion. So in the next segment, I'm gonna ask Brent, how did the general membership of the church respond to the word of wisdom?

Because I have some thoughts on what it might have been like. We'll talk about that next.

Segment 3

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Okay. So Brent, how did the general membership of the church respond? And I also wanna know, because in my mind, Emma just came to him with this thing, like, I don't wanna clean this up anymore. What do you think she was intending to have happen versus what actually happened? So, uh, maybe I'll start with the second question there.

'cause I, I, that's a really fascinating thought. I'm not, I'm not sure, um, like as a woman who cleans, I'm like, my, my thought to my husband is, you're gonna clean this up. Well, right? Yeah. And that's as I, you and all the men, as I've studied this, I, I always think to myself, yeah, I mean these guys are just. You know, being gross and they're, they're like, just, I'm gonna be gross and I'm not gonna have to, to deal [00:24:00] with it.

So yeah. I could totally see her saying like, I'm, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. Get them to clean it up. Yeah. Or, or even, you know, maybe we shouldn't be using this stuff indoors. Right. I don't know, I don't know if her, her hope or intention was to, you know, say, Hey, we, we need to really cut down on this, across the, the church membership and, and, you know, not have anyone using tobacco, tea, coffee and alcohol.

Yeah. But you again, you see like her. In this moment saying, you know, like, and, and getting in her mind, you can think, well, yeah, it is pretty filthy and, and you're trying to do God's work in this really mm-hmm. Filthy atmosphere. Why this doesn't, just, doesn't really make sense to me. Yeah. Um, but so you could see both from the practical, I don't want to clean up this disgusting stuff that I'm, I'm not doing that somebody else is doing.

And the other of, you know, this just seems contrary to, to God's work. Um, and then, and then Joseph, you know, was agreeing essentially and saying, yeah, this, that's a, it's a good point. You know, I better pray about this and try to find some answers. That's what blows my mind is that he co he so could have just been like, it's a good point, Emma.

I'll have the men clean up from now on. Like, it is pretty gross. We can clean up our own mess. But the fact that he's like, let me see what the Lord thinks about this. That is mind blowing to me. Something so simple to me is like, clean up your mess. Right? And yet he sees this as an opportunity. Maybe there's some direction here that the Lord has for us.

So I I, I really like his approach to this problem. Well, and I, I think that it's Joseph, that's what I said, what early on when I said Joseph's life is sort of a testament of taking questions. The lord, I mean that anything comes up. His first thought is, I should pray about this and see what God wants us to do.

And it's a really good approach, right? I mean, it really is. I think, I think sometimes we think, oh, [00:26:00] this, this thing that we're dealing with or whatever is. So minuscule or, you know, I shouldn't, I shouldn't waste God's time with this. Mm-hmm. And these are thoughts that I've had, but I think both from scripture and from the example of people like Joseph Smith and others, that God wants to hear from us.

He wants us to ask questions, he wants to give us guidance that will help us in our journeys on this earth. I mean, that's, that's what the revelations are. Mm-hmm. That's what the words of the prophets are, are they're, helps for us in our journey here. And so I, I don't think that there is anything too small that, that God or our savior, uh, would want to hear from us.

And, and I think that this is really good example because I, I agree with you. I think it almost like, in a practical way, Joseph could have just come to the next meeting of the school and probably be like, Hey. Yeah. If you're gonna chew or smoke, you're cleaning it up, let's move on. Right, absolutely. And then I wonder if Emma was like, I did not think it would go this direction.

Right. People mad about it. 'cause I like how you said that these revelations, the answers to these revelations are helps for us. Did the saints feel like the word of wisdom was a help for them? What was their response to the word of wisdom? It's a, it's really, um, varied. You know, it, it says not by commandment or constraint, but here's, here's, you know, a, a revelation and a word of wisdom that, that will show forth the order and will of God.

And this is in first two. Mm-hmm. This is the Lord saying this is, you know, you really ought to be paying attention to this. Right. But it's, it's, I would say, uneven and varied a response. You know, you get some, like for the, the instance of the, some of the men who threw their tobacco and pipes, you know, in the fire and said, I'm, I'm going to live this for the rest of my life.

And then you, you get others including Joseph Smith, who, you know, have. Have a little bit of a different take on it at different times, uh, depending on the circumstance. And so you, there's several instances in the records of the past that [00:28:00] explain how church members took this and how it was, you know, different from, from time to time.

And I guess I would add that one thing that, that Joseph Smith does teach, he says There is no excuse for any man to drink and get drunk in the Church of Christ. Uh, and then he goes on and say, or gratify any appetite or lust, contrary to the principles of righteousness. So I do think that Joseph is strict against this idea of drunkenness, but there are examples where the saints are still using wine for sacrament.

Mm-hmm. Um, in the 1830s. And then there are examples of other. Uh, uses of alcohol sometimes for medicinal purposes, but sometimes for, you know, like, uh, social purposes too. So it's not, it's not the strict, uh, temple recommend requirements that we think of it today in, right, the 19th century. And so that's why you get a bit of this varied and, and unevenness to, um, to it.

But I, I do think, you know, the idea of drinking to excess and the usage of things for excess is. Where you do see Joseph and, and most of the saints kind of drawn a line that, that drunkenness and excessive use of, of these things are not appropriate. That's amazing. But, but you also have, uh, you know, Emma is, there's examples of Emma Smith giving coffee to visitors.

You know, you, you have Hiram Smith as an advocate for church members to be more sparing of animals so that they're not using meat as much. Um, but he's one of the only few that really talk about that aspect of it. Uh, but then you, you have others like, uh, Vienna Jaques, who I know we're gonna talk more about later, she, uh, she was very strictly adhering to the word of wisdom's provisions.

She, she didn't. Really eat [00:30:00] meat. Mm-hmm. She didn't drink tea or coffee or use alcohol or tobacco. Um, and so people are are doing it kind of according to their personal predilections. Yeah. And it's, it's not until 1921 that the revelation fills in that temple recommend require, like, we are strictly abstaining from alcohol, coffee, tea, and tobacco.

And this is a requirement for, you know, being a temple recommend holding person. And so that's, uh, president Heer J Grant who makes that sort of shift at this point. And that's, well, I can't do math on the fly, but, you know, 88 ish years after the revelation that there's, there is variation in the way that Yeah.

Church members are approaching how to, um, use or when to use and not use these, these different substances. Mm-hmm. So in verse, let's highlight verse three. The title for the word of wisdom is this principle with a promise. It says, given for a principle with promise adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints.

And I think this verse, I love it in light of what you've just said because it wasn't a temple recommend question until 1921. 'cause I think it took some, some time for the weak and the weakest of all Saints to live this and get on board with it. Especially if it was just a part of your everyday life. It would've been so hard to just like done.

But I appreciate that there is a promise associated with this principle. But what I really love is when you said that, when Joseph Smith received answers, they were helps for us today. So I wanna know, going through section 89, what do you think are some verses that are helps for us today and the promises associated with it?

Because you said some people stopped, started becoming vegetarian, they stopped drinking. Is the word of wisdom requiring us to be vegetarians? I don't think that's what it's saying. I, I, I just, I really. Have for a long time thought about the [00:32:00] word of wisdom as this sort of, this principle of moderation, right?

Mm-hmm. Like balance and keeping yourself free from things that, that could addict you or become addictive. Yeah. And doing these things can make our, our bodies more healthy, which can make our lives more full. It, it's more prescriptive than it is, you know, a, a restrictive thing. Like, it's not, it's not trying to make us, you know, one, one way or one thing, but just saying, Hey, here's, here's a prescription, you know?

Uh, and if you follow this prescription, you can generally be more healthy. And you get into the, the later verses and it says in verse 18. And, you know, and All Saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones.

And then moving on at, uh, in 19 and 20 and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures and shall run and not be weary and shall walk in and not faint. Right? And so it says basically, you're, you're gonna have the strength to take on challenges that come in, in this life. For me, I think that this idea of not being handcuffed by things that might addict you or, or having balance, it allows you to navigate the things of the flesh and the body so that you can also better navigate the matters of the spirit.

And I like that. And it's, it's like a game plan for navigating our world. And you know, I was just say on a personal note, as someone who, and I keep, I keep coming back to addiction and I, and I don't know if that's necessarily an appropriate thing, but I, I think of, uh, and especially tobacco and alcohol as addictive substances.

And I, my father was addicted to both of them. And in verse four, in consequences of evils and designs, which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men, you know, getting people addicted to substances, uh, is part of [00:34:00] like that evil, uh, that evil design. Addiction doesn't just affect the, the individual who is addicted.

It affects a whole circle of people. Yes. Including those that you're, you're closest to. And so, and when you are, when you are addicted, you don't really have that. Same freedom to navigate the matters of the spirit. When you're free from addiction, you are more fully able to exercise your agency and your faith and have, you know, and I think that this is where the revelation is giving this, this great promise that we have, um, we have more access to those ma to the matters of the spirit, to personal revelation, to the, the channel that is God.

I think that you are absolutely correct and that these verses are helps for us today. I appreciate that you shared the story about your dad and that you got personal with that. I've often had people come up to me and say, you know, the church would do better if they just revamped the word of wisdom. If we could just get rid of the word of wisdom completely, then I really think our membership numbers would go up and people wouldn't have such a hard time.

And it's interesting because my husband was with me at the time when a friend of ours said this, you know, if we could just get rid of the word of wisdom, we'd be able to just convert so many people. And I really think God needs to just dial it back and let's have a prophet revisit section 89 of the doctrine covenants.

And my husband's response was, he just looked at my friend dead in the eyes and said, you've clearly never had a family member that struggled with the word of wisdom. So I love that you brought that up, because anyone who's experienced it firsthand knows how divine the word of wisdom really is. So thank you for including that.

But it is, I mean, it's, it's hard, right? It, it's not like, and you mentioned that it take, it took the 80 plus years, you know, to get the weakest of the, those who could call themselves saints. Right? I mean, it, it's because it, you know, it takes time to get over addictions. It takes time to, uh, move away from practices that you're, you're used to.

So when we think about those folks that threw their pipes in the fire immediately, sometimes we hold that [00:36:00] up as the model of this is how we have to do it. We have, and if we can't immediately yeah. Rid ourselves of this issue, uh, then we're doing something wrong. And I just don't think that's right. I think it takes time, it takes process.

It's like repentance. If you have something you're struggling with that you need to repent of, you don't often just repent one time and then, Hey, I'm, I'm right. Great. You know, it's a pro. It's called the repentance process for a reason. Oh, that's good. And this, this is a process and I, I'll give one example of, of process that I find to be, uh, kind of interesting.

It's an example from history, but. Leonard Arrington wrote about Brigham Young in a biography of him, and he said that Brigham had taken up chewing tobacco as a young man, and especially when his teeth hurt him, like I guess he had problems with his teeth. Hmm. And the tobacco apparently relieved the pain of his, his toothache.

So by the time they get to the Salt Lake Valley, and even into the 1850s, he still kept a plug of chewing tobacco with him, because there might be times that he's like, well, I, I might be in pain and I'll, I'll keep this as a medicinal use. But he sometimes would take out that, that plug and he would say to, so like, he would look at it and say, who's going to be the master?

You or me, like talking to this wad of chewing tobacco, Leonard Arrington, because he usually put it back in his pocket. But, you know, there were times that his pain was endurable and he would, uh, resort to tobacco once more. And so, right. That this is an example of. Somebody who comes to lead the church Yeah.

And is still having these, these temptations and resorting to the use of, of this substance. I bring that example up because I think it shows sort of that, that process of we want to, Brigham wanted to show that he, you know, I, I've quit the habit. I'm, I'm doing this, but sometimes he, he fell back into it too and that was part of his process of overcoming and we all have different stories of our own processes of overcoming.

And I think that's the important thing to think about both with this, [00:38:00] uh, with this revelation and with others, is the Lord wants us to try to improve, but sometimes we, you know, maybe take a step back and that's okay. Well, this is, this is really interesting to me now because I've never connected section 89 to 90.

I've always studied 'em separately. But if we have section 89 and it's a difficult for some of the saints to adhere to, right? The weak and the weakest of All Saints, that it wasn't a temple recommend question until 1921. I wonder if Section 90 is in response to how people were accepting this new rule for the word of wisdom.

Because Section 90 is filled with a very important truth about when a prophet speaks. And so we'll show you some very important wording and we'll go into Section 90. in the next segment

Segment 4

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I have a sound for you. I'm gonna play and see if you can tell me what this is. So close your eyes and then see if you can tell me what you're hearing.

Sounds like you're jingling. Some keys. I am. Okay, here's what I wanna know. Go into doctrine and cabinet section 90. I've never asked anybody this question. I didn't even prepare you with this, so I'm just, I would love to know what your thought is. So here we have section 90, now 80 nine's been given, and now we go right into this concept about keys.

So let's go to verses one through three and we're gonna highlight the word keys or key. Here we go, one through three. Thus sayeth the Lord. Verily, verily I say unto you, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee according to thy petition. For thy prayers. And the prayers of thy brethren have come unto my ears.

Therefore, thou our blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you, which kingdom is coming forth for the last time. Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you while thou art in the world, neither in the world to [00:40:00] come. Now, why are they referring it to keys?

Why is priesthood all of that connected with keys and keys of the kingdom? The only, the only thing I can think of is the meaning of key as something that, that unlocks, that, that provides a way, an entrance or, you know, the, the point of entry into something. And for the keys of the kingdom and the keys of the priesthood.

It's, it's the, the entryway or the channel through which God flows or, you know, God's work flows and, and how he operates is by the, the bestow of these keys and then works through them. Yeah, absolutely. Here's a quote from Joseph Smith. It's found in teachings of the president of the church. The keys of the priesthood have to be brought from heaven whenever the gospel is sent.

And so here we have now where we get this wording, keys of the kingdom, keys of priesthood, and then they're connected to in verse four and five. And there's a word here. So Brent, will you read verses four and five? Nevertheless through you shall the oracles be given to another. Yay. Even unto the church and all they who receive the oracles of God, let them be aware how they hold them, lest they are accounted as a light thing and are brought condemnation, thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend and the winds blow and the rains descend and beat upon their house.

So circle the word oracles in verse four and five, and what that word means is divine revelations. Which changes the whole meaning of these verses for me, when it says, nevertheless, through you, Joseph Smith, shall the divine revelations be given, and then verse five, and all meaning me, all they who receive the divine revelations of God, let them be aware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing.[00:42:00]

And now I'm connecting to section 89. I wonder if anyone held this revelation as a light thing. Was it hard to live? And here's the Lord saying, okay, listen, there are gonna be divine revelations that you're not going to like and just beware and, and, and sit with it for a minute. And so I asked you to come and tell us what's some of the history behind Section 90 and, and this idea of keys.

I, I think that's an interesting thought about, um. About the Lord preparing both Joseph and the rest of the church about, you know, hey, this, this is not just 89, but all the others that have come through Joseph Smith are not, are not light things. They are to be taken seriously. And if you think about the timing of this is just, it's like a two week period in 1833 when these things are happening.

And so there could have been, um, I can't say that I recall seeing any, you know, records or documentation of people being upset about the word of wisdom at that time. But it stands to, to reason that whether it was the word of wisdom or other revelation. Yeah. There needed to be this reminder to those who hear the gospel message that God is giving divine direction through.

The prophet and Section 90 is about not just this man. Right. So I think sometimes that, maybe that was part of what God sees needed to happen is, okay. We, we have Joseph as, as this, as the prophet and president of the church and, and he's kind of singular here. There had been steps to create sort of governing body in the church.

And this revelation really solidifies a first presidency is what, you know, this is where we get a first presidency where you have three individuals mm-hmm. Who are called and set apart. They're, they're really equal and laboring together to guide the affairs of the church. That's what I see as the ultimate purpose of this, uh, revelation.

It [00:44:00] clearly lays out that there is a presiding authority within that body, and, and this is Joseph Smith at, at the time, he remains the, the president, but there are two presidents who are two. Work alongside him in, in governing the affairs of the church, and they are to be unified, right? So rather than just have, it's just Joseph kind of singular on his own, leading the, the church the Lord has set up from 1831 November of 1831.

There's meant to be support for the, the president when you re get to section 1 0 7 of the doctrine covenants, who mm-hmm. You know, learn more about that. But even in section 81, it talks about there are to be counselors to, it says unto my servant Joseph, but that, that there are keys of the kingdom that belonged to the presidency of the high priesthood.

And this revelation, section 90, which is given on eight March of 1833, is what sort of coalesces that, uh, creation of that body. And I'm saying like, this body is the. The presidency of the, the church and the keys mm-hmm. Reside within, within the body. Um, and so that's, that's kind of the work that, that the Lord is doing to say, this is the unified body to direct the affairs of the church.

And so we've had this, um, you know, the organization of councils in the, um, you know, the creation of the corner of the 12 apostles that come a couple of years later. And then the ways in which the, the keys work through those two main governing bodies of the, the church develop more. So this isn't, uh, you know, like the, the stop, the end of, of the ways in which the keys are being administered.

But it is a, an important step in that process. Now, you shared with us when we talked in the very first segment about what the Holy Ghost taught you. Verse [00:46:00] 24. I'm curious to know, when it came to this revelation of Section 90 were, was there any other verses you marked that really stood out to you when it comes to information for this first presidency?

Uh, well, yeah. What do you got? There's a, there's a lot of good stuff in here. Mm-hmm. I, I always love the verses of scripture that remind us that our sins are, are and can be forgiven. Mm-hmm. So in verses one and six, both for Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon and Frederick g Williams, the, the other presidents of the high priesthood, or what becomes the first presidency, both those verses talk about how, uh, the sins are forgiven.

And, and I, I just always love that because, um, that's something that's important for all of us to remember is that we, we can have our sins forgiven and that we. Because the savior atone for us, if we go with real intent, we can always have forgiveness of sins and, and God reminding us of that is always an important thing in sort of our, our daily living of faith.

They sure I have an eternal truth color, that I highlight everything that is absolute truth and that is gonna be mine for this from going here on out. 'cause you reminded me of that absolute truth is our sins are forgiven. And now I'm thinking, I love that you started out with that. How many sections begin with that?

Like your sins are forgiven now let's move on. I just think it's important for us to remember that. And I love how you've pointed out that repentance is a process and so that's important to remember now. That I'm thinking about this because he forgives them so often that you're kind of like, get it together already.

Like, why can't you guys stop sinning? And I just love that the Lord's like, all right, yeah, let's get it together. Your sin are forgiven now here's what I need you to do, and then we'll read another section. He's like, well, and your sin are forgiven again. So I love you and let's move on. He's that good to us.

So thank you for reminding me of that. That's so cool. Yeah. Um, [00:48:00] and then if we could go back real quick to verse five that we already, that we already talked about. Yeah. I saw a connection with doctrine and covenant section 84, uh, verses 54 through 57. And this revelation was given a few months, uh, about six months earlier in September of 1832.

And in those verses, and it, it says, or it reads, and your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief. And because you have treated lightly, the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. And this condemnation rest resteth upon the children of Zion, even all, and they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent.

And remember the New Covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments, which I have given them not only to say but to do according to that which I have written. And I just, I, it reminded me of those verses because of this. Yeah. This idea that we are accountable to hear and to take seriously the teachings of the prophets.

That, that they are giving us messages that they feel inspired to give us from God. And that these are not things to be taken lightly. Because if we do, we, we can stumble and we can fall, uh, when we have those. Difficult times come up on us, which is, which is what verse five, uh, in Section 90 tells us. And so I thought that was kind of a interesting connection with a, a recent section of scripture.

Yeah, that's a great cross reference for verse five. Thank you. I love that. I put that next to it. Um, and then I, I highlighted a couple of other things. I love, I love this, uh, promise in verse 11. Yes, that every human shall hear the fullness of the gospel in their own tongue and in their own language. I just, I just love that idea because I, [00:50:00] we see how that has grown in fulfillment, uh, how, you know, the Book of Mormon has been translated into, you know, so many languages and taken to so many countries.

I don't, I don't. I profess to know all the percentages a lot or you know, like out of how many. But yeah, it's a lot and it's going to all the world and, and that's work that is still ongoing. Um, and so I think that. That one was one that I thought was, was neat. I have a really cool quote that I've put next to this verse.

This is given by Wilfred Woodruff in an 1898 general conference, but he's relaying a conversation that he had with Joseph Smith about this concept that we're talking about. Here's the quote, this is awesome. Here's what he says. You know, no more concerning the destinies of this church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother's lap.

You don't comprehend it. It is only a little handful of priesthood you see here tonight, but this church will fill North and South America. It will fill the world. And Wilfred Woodruff was there. He was part of that handful of priesthood that he says, you see here tonight? And I just think, this is awesome.

Hi. The revelation. There's a divine revelation that absolutely came true. So, right. I think verse eleven's very, very important. Absolutely. I, and that's a great. A great quote. And I have one other verse that I wanted to touch on. I mean, we could have get into several more of these that talk about setting in order of the affairs of the church and the kingdom and, and the importance of councils in the church, which is in verse 16.

But the one that I really wanted to highlight, uh, because I, it has a great connection to section 91 is verse 13. Mm-hmm. And it, it's reads, when you have finished the translation of the prophets, you shall from then forth preside over the affairs of the church and the school. And it connects with section 91 because this is the time frame in which Joseph is [00:52:00] really working on his revision work on the Bible.

Mm-hmm. He had completed work on the New Testament in early February, 1833. So just about a month before this revelation. And at this time in, uh, you know, eight March, 1833, he was working on the Old Testament books of Isaiah, Jeremiah. Ezekiel and he continues the work on the Old Testament books until he finishes on July 2nd, 1833.

So he follows the council of this revelation and finishes his work on the translation of the prophets nearly four months later. But here's what I find really fascinating. I, I think this verse 13 may have prompted Joseph to inquire. So again, we go back to the idea of asking questions like we have Oh, yeah.

Knowledge. But now we need another question, uh, to inquire about what, what does it mean to finish the translation of the prophets, right? Because, so verse 13 says, when you have finished the translation of the prophets mm-hmm. And like, what does that, what all does that entail? Right? And so the question that is asked of the Lord is, did that include the books of what was called the Apocrypha And the apocrypha were books that were not in the Hebrew canon.

They were like, kind of like scripture, but not in the Hebrew cannon, but they were in, uh, the, the, the. The biblical books that were translated from Greek. So like for instance, Martin Luther's translation and his Bible put the apocrypha at the end, not equating it with holy scripture, but, but as something that was good for people to read and understand.

And so it was, it was kind of its own section in the back. And doctrine covenant section 91 reveals to Joseph and therefore to the world that there, there are some good things, um, some true things in the books of the apocrypha. And then there are things that are not true, but that they were, it was not needed for those to be translated because these are, these are not works of holy scripture.

Right? [00:54:00] Yeah. This is, he confirms that the apocrypha was not equal to the Bible and should not be part of the canon. And so that the revelation teaches us, uh, an important principle about. The Holy Spirit as the teacher of truth. That's, that's in Section 91. That's part of the reason why I love your, your question at the beginning, what did the Holy Spirit, what the Holy Ghost teach you as you or is because that, you know, that's the, the real teacher of truth there and that we get that extra little bit about the, the Spirit because of this revelation that we also get in section 90, verse 14, that you know that things are gonna be manifested by the comforter.

We receive revelations, uh, that, that we can receive personal revelation, that Joseph and the first presidency can receive revelation to help unfold the mysteries of the kingdom. That is through the Spirit. It's through the Holy Ghost. That truth and Revelation emanate, and that this is on a personal level for us, but it's also for the guidance of the whole church, that truth and revelation are manifested by the Holy Ghost.

And so we learned that both in section 90 and in section 91. Oh, that is such a cool connection. I love that you took those two verses to 91, especially because we're not talking about 91 today, but we did. So this is so cool. And I love apocryphal writings, and I think you're absolutely right. There have been times when I've read it and I'm like, Hmm, I don't know.

And then there are times when I've read things and I'm like, yes, this is true. So I think that's perfect. Thank you, Brent. Okay, but we're not done with section 90 because you guys, we have some very important verses 28 through 32, and that's the reason I invited Brent here today. I mean, yes, for all the stuff he taught us, which was awesome.

But this is it, and I've been so excited this whole episode to get into these next two segments. And Brent is gonna teach us about someone very important and we'll introduce you to this person in the next segment.

Segment 5

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Okay, we are [00:56:00] still in Doctrine and Covenants section 90. Let's just go to verse 28. It's going to introduce us to who we're going to talk about for the next two segments. And you guys, this is so cool. Here we go. Brent, will you read verse 28? I will. And again, verily I say unto you, it is my will that my handmade Vienna Jaques should receive money to bear her expenses and go up into the land of Zion.

Highlight her name. Vienna Jaques. Alright, Brent, tell me about Vienna Jaques and why she's so important to you. Well, I'll start by saying that one of the first things that people ask me about Vienna is how to pronounce her last name. And I go with Jaques because there's a phonetic spelling that is J-A-K-E-S.

Mm-hmm. Uh, there are other phonetic spellings that, that sound a little bit different, that are, um, maybe a little bit more French sounding like Jacque. Oh, there you go. It's just easier for me to pronounce it as Jaques. Uh, so that's how, how I pronounce her name. The second thing that people tell me when they talk to me about Vienna is I didn't know that her name was mentioned in the doctrine and covenants I've been in.

People say things like, I've been in the church for, you know, my whole life, or I've been in the church for 50 years. I, you know, however, however long and I've been reading, you know, the sections of the doctrine of covenants. And I said, yeah, you're, you're not alone. That's a pretty common response actually.

And, um, why are people coming to you to talk about Vienna Jaques. Yeah, well, they, they're coming to me to talk about Vienna Jaques because I have spent the last 12 years, uh, researching her life and have written a book that Deseret book just published. It's called The Lord Spoke Her name, the remarkable story of Vienna Jaques in the restoration.

I've spent this [00:58:00] decade plus researching and writing about her because I think that she deserves to be known. I mean, I think everybody has a story to tell and everybody has a story worth hearing, but there's something pretty special about. Having your name mentioned in Revelation. I love that title. I felt the spirit so strong when you just said the title, the Lord spoke her name.

That is awesome. I mean, she's only one of two women in the entire doctrine and covenants that are mentioned by name, right? That's exactly right. Her and Emma, her and Emma Smith are the only two. When you're one of two and people know one, but they don't know two. I think that's worth getting to know a little bit.

Uh, you know, why did the Lord. Speak her name and I, I think the Lord speaks to everybody who are willing to listen and pray and be patient and, and to be faithful. But why is, why did she get a mention in this section of, of the doctrine? The covenants, and I came to this question as I was working on documents, volume three of the Joseph Smith papers.

That's where, you know, I got hired, uh, at the church to work on that And mm-hmm. This section of the doctrine and covenants and, um, another letter that Joseph Smith wrote to Vienna Jaques in September of 1833. So about six months after this revelation were a couple of the documents that I was assigned to work on.

And I just, I just became fascinated and captivated by what I was finding about Vienna. And, and then I would say that the other side of it, not just that I was captivated by what I was learning, but that. She's been in the doctrine and covenants since it was first published in 1835, but there's been very little written about her.

Um, you know, maybe she's, she's mentioned in a doctrine and covenants commentary here or there, and it's usually a very simplistic story about her, that [01:00:00] she was a wealthy woman who joined the church and consecrated her means. And then she went on to live a long and faithful life. And that's a, that's, it's not inaccurate.

Um, but it's also not the full, the depth of, of what she experienced. And as I researched the many facets of her life and saw that there was a lot more to say about her, I just kept digging around in historical sources and. S trying to find out as much as I could about Vianna Jake so that I could help other people get to know her and to get to know her story.

And I, I guess the, the highlights that I had mentioned to, just to start, are that she converted to the church as a single woman in her mid forties. She heard about the church in a newspaper, and the Gold Bible is, uh, you know, the Book of Mormon was referred to. And she wanted to understand what this new church and this new book of scripture was about.

She had been a, went to a Methodist Episcopal church, but was not totally satisfied with its religious offerings. And she was interested in, uh, divine healing and revelatory power. And so when she heard about the Book of Mormons, she wanted to. See what, you know, this new faith was about. And she got a copy of it, and she was not, she, she kind of was not immediately drawn to the book.

It, you know, kind of an interesting process. And so she, she set it aside, um, after flipping through the pages a little bit, didn't really seriously engage with, with the book. And she later said that she didn't fully comprehend the importance of the book when she first browsed through it. Um, and she set it aside for a brief time.

And then after, after a little while, she felt impressed to reconsider the Book of Mormon. And so she decided to pray and she asked God to impress upon her mind if this was a true book of scripture. And she felt that she needed to read it [01:02:00] more closely, more carefully. And this time, reading the book, she said that her mind became illuminated and she really felt drawn to its contents.

And after she finished, she prayed again. And she prayed about the claims of Joseph Smith and his, his claims of being a prophet and about this new scripture. And in her answer to her seeking, she said that she had a vision of the Book of Mormon, of which she was firmly convinced of its divine authenticity.

She was completely satisfied that the Book of Mormon was a revelation from God, and she knew at that point that she wanted to, to be a part of the Lord's work. She was living in Boston, Massachusetts, like I said, as a, as a single woman. She, uh, traveled to Kirtland, Ohio to learn more about the church, and she went there and was baptized by Imer Harris on July 12th, 1831.

During her trip there. I love that. Yeah. So during her trip there, she also got a chance to meet Joseph Smith shortly after she was baptized and she was taught by him the concept of gathering, the gathering of, of Israel and the gathering of the saints. You know, I mentioned in those doctrine, covenants, commentaries that she had consecrated monies and things like that.

She had earned a good living. She had acquired properties both in Boston, Massachusetts and in Providence, Rhode Island, like she was, she was doing really well for herself. And she, when you say she's single, was she single, like never been married, or was she widowed or divorced at this point? She was not married.

She's never been married. Up to age 40. Never. Yeah, and I, whoa. She, she had not been married. And like I said, for a single woman at that time, to acquire quite a bit of financial means was, I love her. Was pretty, pretty impressive. Um, yeah. That's so cool. Cool. She's a very hardworking, you know, we talk about searching diligently in an earlier [01:04:00] scripture.

Well, she worked diligently for her whole life, and she did really, really well. And she liquidated some of those properties and took with her, and we don't know how much, there isn't a good documentation on the amount of money that she had with her, but by the time she arrived in Kirtland, by the time of the revelation of Section 90, she had given a substantial financial offering to the church.

Joseph Smith wrote that it proved a savior of life as pertaining to the church's pecuniary interests or its financial interests or concern. And her donation actually helped the church leaders who were at that time trying to buy the land on which they would build the Kirtland temple. And so her, her donation helped the church buy that land so that the temple work could move forward.

Oh my goodness. And what the revelation is calling for her, like, so she's given this money and then it says that she should receive some of that back so she can go travel to Missouri. To to Zion. Mm-hmm. And she does, she goes to Jackson County, Missouri. And I wanna read a couple more verses of section 90 if I could please.

And it says in verse 30, verily I say unto you that it is meet in mine eyes, that she should go up unto the land of Zion and receive an inheritance from the hand of the bishop. That she may settle down in peace in as much as she's faithful and not be idle in her days from then forth, so. I would imagine her hearing the words of the, this revelation and thinking, I'm gonna go to to Zion and I'm gonna get to settle down in peace.

And she knows herself. She knows she's not gonna be idol. She's a hardworking woman and she's a dedicated woman. And she, she gets to Jackson County and six weeks later mobs are attacking and are taking the printing equipment out of the printing office and throwing it all over the, the streets and tearing roofs off of houses and tarring and feathering the bishop.

So she's probably senses at this moment, she's not going to [01:06:00] settle down in peace here. Mm-hmm. And she's, she prays mightily for, uh, some understanding. And Joseph Smith feels impressed in September to write to her a letter, a word of comfort about her situation. And it's a really remarkable letter that he writes.

I do a whole chapter in the book on, on this letter because it's such an important piece of evidence about Vienna Jake's life, but also about the nature of, of Joseph Smith wanting to reach out to this sister in distress. It's an important moment in church history and, and it, it certainly would have buoyed Vienna at a very difficult time.

And so Vienna remains faithful through these, these trials. I mean, you could see at, at that moment how easy it could have been to say, whoa, I just, I just up and left a nice living on the east coast, gave all of my means or a lot of my means to the, this new church. And here I am being attacked and, uh, so are all these members of the church and this, gosh, is this what I, what I want to keep doing?

Yeah. And she does, she, she's, she holds firm to that. That vision of the Book of Mormon and that that con confirmation of the divinity of the work. And she moves forward and she endears the trials of Missouri with the Saints and then moves on to to Navu. I love her faith and fortitude. Yes. It's incredible.

Like she's amazing to me. You know, I got kind of excited when you said EER Harris because a couple episodes ago, like Claire at the beginning we were talking about Martin Harris. 'cause Eer is Martin's brother. That's right. And And Eer is Dallen H Oaks great-great-great grandfather. It's where he gets his initial H from is Mar Dallen.

H Oaks is dLAN Harris Oaks from his grandfather Eer. So how cool to think Eer baptized Vivian Jaques. Yeah, they were friends. I [01:08:00] love that. Oh my gosh. I love her faith and fortitude. Okay, so in the next segment then do this for us. I want you to tell us one of your favorite Vienna Jaques stories. You ready to do that?

Yes. I can't believe you wrote a book about her. I can't wait to read that. And the name. The Lord spoke her name. That's just brilliant. Okay. We'll see what else the Lord has to say about her in the next segment.

Segment 6

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Okay. So tell us, Brent, what's one of your favorite Vienna Jaques stories? Well, I think my favorite vi Jake story is the time that she rode her horse into the Mississippi River and witnessed the first baptisms for the dead in this dispensation. Oh. So yeah, let me, let me get some backstory. Okay. So that this is, this is my favorite.

Vienna was just very deeply interested in the eternal salvation for herself and for her ancestors. And in 1840, Joseph starts teaching a little bit more about proxy work for the deceased and particular baptisms for the dead and. On September 12th, 1840, Vienna heard and, and I don't know how the sources don't indicate exactly how she found out, but she learned that a woman named Jane Nyman was going with an elder named Harvey Olmsted into the Mississippi River to be baptized for Jane's deceased son who had died and not been baptized.

And once Vienna heard of this, she went and got on her horse and rode her horse as fast as she could, like just galloping, gallop, and galloping until she gets to the Mississippi River and then like plunges the horse into the river and urges the, the horse into the water to be up close to Jane and Harvey Olmsted as, as they're about to.

Perform this [01:10:00] sacred ordinance. And so Harvey takes this grieving widow and mother named Jane and says, a baptismal prayer. And then we have to understand that there is not a set prayer, there's no precedence for doing this ordinance work. Like this is the first time this is happening and Vienna is just there on her horse listening in.

And actually the, the cover of the book has a painting by Anthony Sweat of, of Vienna on horseback while this is about to take place. Oh, it's a great picture. Yeah. It it's beautiful. It's, it's just quite, quite lovely. And so as Vienna just, you know, urges a little bit closer. Listens to the prayer and observes the ordinance as Harvey dips Jane into the river.

And Vienna was there as the ritual practice of vicarious baptisms was born. And it's a great story, like just the fact of her hearing about it, getting on her horse, riding to the river. But then what happens later that night is, is pretty wonderful as well. Joseph Smith had learned that this, this baptismal ceremony had taken place and he wanted to know about the form of words is how it is written, but what were the words that RV Olmsted used for the baptism?

And so Olmsted is brought in and asked what he said, and Joseph says that, that he had it right. He, he said it the right way. And I, you know, how or why I, you know, I don't know how he knew what to say, but what he said Joseph said was Right and Vienna. Who was the witness was also consulted. Joseph asks Vienna, what did you hear?

And Vienna confirms to the prophet what she had observed and heard and reassured him that this was done as Harvey Olmsted had described it. And so she's serving as this, this testimony, this witness that the words and actions that Olmsted used during this vivic first [01:12:00] vicarious baptismal prayer and ordinance were done.

And that, that the record says that the words were precisely the same as was used afterward by the elders. Hmm. And she's placed this, this instrumental role in the very first baptism for the dead. And if we think about that initial moment and her presence and role in that, and the work that is now to hundreds of temples, uh, millions of people.

Across the world and her role in that is incredible. And then I would say that understanding how important it was to her that, that she was engaged in the work for her deceased, that she participated in more than 50 recorded baptisms for the dead in Navu, which is a, was a pretty high number among her contemporaries.

And she really became captivated by the practice of ritual work for the deceased. And she dedicated time for the rest of her life to this critical aspect of gathering Zion. She taught Relief Society sisters in Salt Lake City about the importance of the temple and the work, uh, that went on in there. She wrote to Brigham Young about how she had done genealogical work on her family back to the 15 hundreds to make sure that they were taken care of in eternity.

And, uh, just, just an incredible effort that she made, um, to. To do work so that her ancestors and that like all people could have this vicarious work done that, that they might have the opportunity to hear and become converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so that's, that's probably my favorite story about Vienna.

But I also think that it's, it just shows her interest in the doctrine. Mm-hmm. And in her desire to, to do this work, to gather Zion. And her whole life is about gathering Zion, um, from the time that she [01:14:00] gathers with the Saints to driving her own wagon team across the plains, uh, to move to Salt Lake City.

And then in the work that she does to gather Zion and her community in her neighborhood, there's uh, some relief society records of her teaching about these gospel principles. But, uh, more than that, just being somebody who sought to help others, she always went about. Doing good among others. She would go about giving to the sick, uh, or the needy.

She grew her own food and she, she did her own milking and, and making butter and these kind of things. And she just, she donated almost everything that she created in, in her time. And she's just truly a remarkable person. And I think that I, what I really find endearing about Vienna is I think she's like really relatable.

Like we can all be sort of this mm-hmm. Everyday person of faith who's going about seeking truth and doing good among others. And her story is one that shows the power of, of overcoming challenges, the power of faith and fortitude, the power of being self-reliant and being generous. And I think that it also teaches this idea of.

How everyday living of faith is is a truly heroic enterprise. Yeah, absolutely. Oh my goodness. You have paid the price to know about her. That's gonna be a sweet reunion when you get to meet her. There's a line I wanna stand in for sure, but again, like I said with Jenny Reader, I'm gonna stand behind you, Brent, I'll let you guys have the first hug.

Oh my gosh, I cannot wait to get my hands on this book. The Lord spoke her name. Let's get it. Let's read it. Let's tell her story and then I'm just curious to know, Brent, did you come up with that title or did you have another title for this book? The original title was [01:16:00] Never Be Afraid to Do Good. Uh, and that comes from a teaching that she gave to a group of, uh, women Relief Society sisters and young women in her ward in Salt Lake City in the 1870s.

It essentially, she was teaching the concept of, of. We're not afraid to do good. And we go about doing good, the Lord's work advances, and if we aren't doing good, uh, the adversary gains. And so I, I liked that title as, as the initial title because it, it gave, it was Vienna's voice. Yeah. And in her teaching this principle.

But Deseret book came to me and said, that's, that's a good title. We, we appreciate it. What do you think about, about this title? And they said, the Lord spoke her name. And right when they, they said, I was like, wow, that's way better. I mean, just, I mean, because like, how cool, how cool of a title is that to say like, the Lord spoke her name and Yeah.

It's in Revelation. Yeah. It's in this section and right here in Canon that we have. Yeah. So I, I said, I, I think that's great. There are still that account in the book. Mm-hmm. And you know, so her voice still gets to teach others to, to not be afraid to do good. Um, but, but then the title still draws people in.

Right. It totally does. Well, and I just added then in doctrine, section 90 next to her verses I put, never be afraid to do Good. So now that's in scripture too, at least in my scripture. So in, in your scriptures. Wow. I love it. Well, Brent, thank you so much for coming to talk to us about these sections. Thank you for all the work you do with church history.

Uh, we just so appreciate it. The Joseph Smith papers, now that I know how to find them on the gospel app, which I've told all of my listeners to do, when you go to the section, you hit the three little dots at the top, and then you do related content, and then it'll take you right to all the things in Joseph Smith papers, because I'm telling you right now, they're not easy to navigate for the regular member of the church.

Can you fix that for me, Brent? Seriously. I know it's for scholars, but I wanna use it too. Yeah. Well, thank you, Brent. This was a [01:18:00] wonderful discussion. So do this, gather all your thoughts, and from our discussion today, what is one eternal truth that the Holy Ghost taught you? I'm gonna go first. So I really liked it when you started us out at the very beginning how these sections are again, how important it's to take our questions to the Lord, because that is exactly what Joseph Smith did and we've been studying that this year.

We have an acronym for the word ask, which is always seeking more knowledge. And Joseph Smith wasn't afraid to ask. He was always seeking more knowledge. And so I like how you started it out that way. And then you pointed us to the idea that all of these revelations are helps for us today. So that was cool.

So many good discussions. Two things immediately stand out to me. Uh, we've talked about a lot of really great things and, and eternal truths. Uh, I guess the two that I would. Maybe reiterate or come back to, as we conclude, is verse five of section 90. That, that we should receive the, the teachings of, of the prophets and that we, we need to beware to not take them lightly.

Yeah. Like the things of God taught to us by prophets of God are not to be taken lightly and that we need to, uh, grapple with those in really important ways, uh, would be one. And then the other, uh, verse 31 of section 90, to sort of wrap up our discussion about Vienna Jaques, where it says that she may settle down in peace in as much as she is faithful and not be idle in her days from then forth, and we can all be Vienna.

Mm-hmm. We can all find peace if we're faithful. And we're not idle. We're doing good works. We're going about seeking truth and doing good, uh, among our fellow humans like Vienna did. And I, I, I think that is a really powerful and profound statement. Verse 31 [01:20:00] speaks to Vienna's life, but it can also speak to our lives.

Amen. What a great way to end. Thank you so much. You You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Well, what was your eternal truth? What did you learn that you didn't know before? Or that you relearned? Go join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we're gonna post a question from this discussion.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway, because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our fabulous study group participant was Brent Rogers, and you can find more information about him at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday, as well as a link to his book.

So go get it. It's gonna be so cool. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember, you are God's favorite.