The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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On May 6th, a few weeks after the school of the Prophets had adjourned for now, I love this in the church history, it says for the warm season, but I'm gonna add my own take because you know I'm from Missouri. So they adjourned for a warm, wet, humid season. And Joseph Smith received what some scholars call a bold and new, yet ancient and familiar revelation.

And that revelation is known as Doctrine and covenant Section 93. Now, this revelation contains eternal truths that flipped the traditional religious ideas of that time onto its head and truthfully, section 93. Flips today's religious ideas onto its head. It is 53 verses packed with truth and according to one church historian, he says, it's also packed with truth about the nature of humankind and open, startling new vistas on our premortal past our future potential and our relationship with God.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study just like my longtime listening friend, Robin Silk.

Hi Robin. Thank you for listening. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different and this week is different and I'm so excited to introduce you to my friends Sarah Collins and Cole Wissinger. Hi, you two. Hello, Tammy.

Hey, this is fun. Okay. How do you two know each other? Acquaintances through work. It actually goes back even farther. I've, I heard Cole's name first when I was a student employee at BYU Radio. So Cole was on like the sports stuff and the the weekend stuff. Right, Cole? Yeah. And meanwhile Sarah was doing live TV production and floor managing for [00:02:00] BYU tv.

So we were around each other in BYU broadcasting. Probably never met. Really not. Yeah. And then we come to Deseret Book within a week of each other. We were hired as podcast producers. Yep. And now we're co-producers on a couple of things and co-hosts on another show. And that's why they're here because I have had the privilege of working with them.

Cole has been my producer for Sunday, on Monday for the last three years, which has been awesome. And I, I've loved watching Cole's life expand and grow and add a baby. It's been so fun. His cute little Oliver. True, true. Who knows me by voice only, not by face. He's used to hearing me edit. He's my lady Tammy, afterwards.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally. And then I've worked with Sarah on a few of the Magnify episodes and so they're in the hot seat today and here's why. Because they host a podcast together. And you guys, this is a really great podcast. It is a new Deseret Book podcast called Out of the Best books. You might be able to tell what it's about, but I'm gonna let them explain it to you 'cause this is so cool.

Yeah. We have this tagline, it's where we kind of say, well, we pull down a book from our vast Deseret Book library and let it inspire insightful gospel conversations. Um, it was a fun origin 'cause Cole and I are, you know, I'm in my late twenties, Cole's in his early thirties. We just figured there's a lot of these conversations that are, that you hear maybe that there's people leaving faith and, and faith isn't a popular thing, not only in our generation, but in, in every generation at this point of, of like the global status.

Right. And that just wasn't true. Like for us, our, our conversations were, we even have this, like we take 'em out of the church foyers and into your living room or into your headphones, right? They're uplifting, insightful gospel conversations that actually strengthen at least my testimony when I'm around people like that.

And we, we wanted to have a podcast around having these conversations. And because we work at Deseret Book and we have their library to pull from, we center it around a conversation with an author who's written a book that [00:04:00] we would call one of the best books. And we have conversations with them. And we also pull chapter audio like from the audio book that's available on Deseret Bookshelf Plus, which you have if you're listening to this podcast.

So a lot of these audio books are out there, read by the authors themselves, and we wanna take advantage of that. The title out of the Best books should sound familiar for people studying in this section of. This part of the doctrine and covenants 'cause a couple sections earlier. Mm-hmm. In DNC 88 School.

The prophets, again, as we're getting to that point is where we have the and and all credit goes to friend of this podcast and our boss, Laurel Christiansen Day, who came up with the title out of the best books. She's good at that. I know. She's very good at titling things. She titled Sunday on Monday, just FYI.

Oh my gosh. Brilliant. On a roll. I was gonna say, if you've already fallen asleep, we're not just pulling boring books and like rehashing them. We're actually like, these gospel conversations are from those brilliant authors that are really insightful. We don't just pick apart a book. We actually mm-hmm.

Take a topic and push it forward so you'll get more out of the book. That's kind of the goal, right? Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, okay, so you guys have several of these episodes under your belt. I wanna know from each one of you, what's a book that has stood out to you? I mean, I'll go first. I, I was really quite, I don't know if obsessed is the right word, with the Christ Child by Adam Miller.

It was a Christmas time special. So I think I was in, in that brain mindset anyway, thinking about what the true meaning of Christmas is. But he just asks all these rhetorical questions about like how to return to the childlike wonder of Christmas. Mm-hmm. But not, and like why that is such an important part of the Christmas season.

So that book really spoke to me well, he has mastered the Socratic method of teaching, so, yeah, I, I agree with you. So good. Yeah. If you, if you're, if you're on the same brain wavelength as Adam Miller, then it locks step 'cause he is so just to hear him start talking is great. And Mindy Brown, she's been on every [00:06:00] single podcast that we do, including Sunday on Monday.

Mm-hmm. When she was on talking about an endowment of love with us, just the way she talks about the temple is something I had just never, I 30 something years old and I had never heard the temple talked about that way in such a candid way. Mm-hmm. She's wonderful. It's so good. Yeah, that book is good too.

Oh, I love that, Mindy. So, okay, well that is so fun. If you guys are wondering where you can find access to this podcast, you can get it on Bookshelf Plus, but you can also share it with your friends. It's gonna be on Apple and Spotify and it's under the LDS Living podcasts name. And then that's where we put all of these podcasts.

So go check it out. We'll also put a link in the show notes, that way you guys can just access it super duper fast as well as the bios and pictures of our my guests today. So go check those out in our show notes, which are found at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. Okay. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with and we are gonna dig into doctrine and Section 93.

Okay. You two right outta the gate, tell me what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were reading this section and we said, it's kind of funny. Before we started, I was saying to them, I gave you one of the biggest sections in the doctrine and covenants. Not in verse, but in content. 'cause there's so much.

So I'm excited to find out what did the Holy Ghost teach you? I can start. I am a sucker when a general conference talk just uses a, a really quotable snippet from a piece of scripture. Right? Uh, one of my favorite talks of all time was, can you Feel So now by Quentin l Cook, pulling from Alma and Indoctrinate Covenant section 93.

Elder Bednar once gave a talk called Diligent and Concerned at Home, and I had forgotten that that was there until I was reading through in my scriptures. I have written on the side Bednar October, 2009. And so I went back and also reread that talk where there is just some really great wisdom about framing the education of your children and, and a lot of the stuff that the rest of this section is talking about.

Mm-hmm. But he puts it with bearing testimony and expressing love and not being a hypocrite and [00:08:00] being consistent, um, and being able to revisit that talk from over a decade ago in the context of having read the rest of this section. Uh, I got a quote that I can read from it. Oh, please. Well, before you read, tell me what, tell me what verse of scripture you wrote.

Elder Bednar talked next to. So we can have that. It is, gosh, I should be better at, I'm the one that, I'm the one that writes the show notes for all of these episodes. Mm-hmm. And yet I'm the one that, uh, forgets to read it once I'm talking on the podcast. But DNC 93 verse 50, he says, my, it's to my servant, Newell k Whitney and a bishop in the church hath need to be chastened and set in order his family and see that they are more diligent and concerned at home and pray always, or they shall be removed from out of thy place.

And so, as David a Bednar frames his talk around this, he has a quote where he says, each family prayer. Each episode of Family Scripture study and each family home evening is a brush stroke on the canvas of our souls. No one event may appear very impressive or memorable, but just as the yellow and gold and brown strokes of paint compliment each other, uh, in this painting that he had talked about earlier in the talk, um, and produce an impressive masterpiece.

So our consistency in doing seemingly small things can lead to significant spiritual results. Oh, that is so cool, Cole. I love that. Now that I have that next to that verse, I'm gonna go read that talk. Yep. That's awesome. What was the year again? October. October of 2009. David a Bedner. Okay. Wow. Thanks for sharing that verse and that talk.

Fantastic. And he's, I, I also, I, I was intrigued that it was David a Bednar, especially because there's ano there's gonna be more, as we talk about light and truth has been a little passion of his for quite some time as well. So he's got, I feel like for about five years span, David a Bednar has just been reading this one section of the Doctrine Covenant, so, oh my gosh.

We just thought that, yeah, for anyone, for anyone that thinks that they have just, they've read the scriptures once and they're good, we have one of the most edu like earthly educated [00:10:00] people and general authorities that for. Long periods of time has been obsessed with just this one simple section in the doctrine covenants.

I'm so glad you said that because when I was reading section 93, I thought maybe we should just push play on all of elder beds. Patterns of light. Yeah. Light and truth patterns of light quotes. Yeah. Wouldn't that be fun If you guys ever meet him, just kind of take him to the side and go listen. Section 93.

Yeah. Is that where this is off one. One of your favorites. One of your favorites, for sure. That is awesome. That's brilliant. Okay, Sarah, what about you? Yeah. Okay. So the spirit, what I was kind of reminding me, uh, throughout my study of this scripture and yeah, I agree. This was a, a content heavy chapter, Tammy, so thanks for that.

You're welcome. Um, I was sort of taken back to this time on my mission, weirdly enough, I serve my mission in Cambodia, which is a Buddhist country. So I admittedly didn't study the doctrine and covenants that much on my mission. Right. I wasn't focused on church history. We were focusing a lot on. Who Jesus Christ is, which is great, obviously.

Yes. The basics. The basics. Mm-hmm. And it was such a delight. Um, but on my mission, I did, you know, study the materials and my own personal study and whatnot, and there I, I kind of just kept having this thought come into my mind. That became a little bit of my mantra throughout my mission, which was that you need to know Jesus Christ.

You need to know who he is and partner with him. And. Like, and, and this chapter confirmed it. I mean, in verse 18, it says, it shall come to pass that if you are faithful, you shall receive the fullness of this record of John and the record of John as knowing who the savior is and what he looks like and what he acts like.

And, and so I, I don't know. It was a reminder to me that I need to keep up a relationship with Jesus Christ. And also just sometimes I like to actually get those physical descriptions, like who he is and what [00:12:00] he talks about and what he teaches. And the scripture, the set of scriptures was a great reminder for me of that.

A little bit simple right in my, what I, what came to my mind, but a great reminder always. Oh, Sarah, I think that's an awesome thing that the spirit taught you, and I appreciate it so much because we're actually gonna get into that and I can't wait to find out right what you marked when we get into that segment.

But that must have been a really hard mission. Cambodia. Yeah. What? Yeah. So you fluent in Cambodian? Uh, I mean, it was, or I, I, I was able to converse pretty well. I, I, I still can't really read it. And I tried to talk to a companion actually, not long ago, and I was like, you gotta slow down on the phone, you know?

I was like, oh, I can't see your mouth moving. What are you saying? It was, yeah. How do you say Jesus or Jesus Christ in Cambodian? Jesus Christ is ri wow. Pray. Yeah. And does it translate into anything else? Or does it mean Jesus Christ? It means Jesus Christ. Prayer at the beginning of every word is like a, is like the reli, like it's um, like temple is pray or whatever.

So it's, you add that, like that means it's gonna be a holy S word prefix. A prefix. That means religious. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's cool. And then it means like godly or, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's neat. Sarah. I know. Don't, don't ask too many questions. I'm probably, if any, let's stick with that. If any Odians are listening.

I'm so sorry. No, you didn't ruin Jesus Christ's name. That was beautiful. So thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, okay, this is gonna be a fun discussion today because section 93, like Sarah said, it's heavy and there's a lot. And what really struck me, and this is kind of cool, Sarah, because you said one of the main things you had to teach the people was about Christ, not about the doctrine covenants.

And this is a beautiful setup because right out of the gates. If there's one thing that the Lord wants us to know and a gift associated with it and it's connected to him, we're gonna show you what that is in the next segment.

Segment 2

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[00:14:00]

What is something that you have wanted in your life or a gift that you've wanted in your life that required work? A college degree. Oh, yeah. The hardest thing that I, and for me, school in high school was fairly easy, but I, I feel like the farther along you go in school eventually, no matter how easy it has been, it will be hard one day.

And I have a friend that went on to get a PhD, right? He gla he just went, sailed through his undergrad at the same time as I was, and we were roommates, but a PhD kicked his butt. So no matter Wow. School will humble you at some point. And for me, calculus two at Brigham Young University humbled the heck outta me.

Mm-hmm. And to get a degree, like to pass to, to get the diploma at the end of it. My program allowed one grade that was less than a C minus, but like more than failing. And that for me, I got a D in calculus and for someone that had like 4.0 ish grades for a long time and through a semester of college before I went on my mission, um, a d was good enough to pass.

And it was very, very hard to get that. D d's get degrees. Is that what they say? That's the D stands for degree. Oh my god. Not only get one. My gosh. So funny. But I, I used it. And what was your degree in? Statistics. And so I, I loved math. Math. The reason I majored in statistics instead of communications, which is the job field I knew I always wanted to go into and what I have the blessing to be able to do as a career making podcasts and doing marketing kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm. Um. I, I, you know, I, I wanted to have a degree in a STEM field just in case those jobs didn't display themselves. And since I liked math and was good at math, I tried it. And then I got to college and I was a, I was no longer good at this thing that I had like anchored a lot of my personality to being.

The good at math kid [00:16:00] that's relatable. Mm-hmm. And wow. It kicked me down a little bit. And so I had to, I had to work to get past it. Yeah. Well then that degree was a gift. Indeed. You earned that. For sure. For sure. I didn't know you went into math. How did I not know that about you? All this time? Because I work in communications.

That's what my minors in so embarrassed. I can't believe how many times I do poor math on this show. You must be rolling your eyes when I I don't do public math either. It's okay. I can't do public math. Sarah. Neither continu are Why are you doing math on the scripture show though? Well, sometimes I'm like, how many years was that?

And you know, between 1830 and 1833 was, you know, it comes out, I don't know. It's, what is it? I can count on my fingers. Yeah. Cole's. Like, seriously? It's not that hard, Tam. Oh my gosh. Math. That's awesome. That is awesome. Sarah, what about you? Yeah, I, you know what's kind of funny? 'cause the way you worded this question, you said something really awesome that you wanted so badly, but required work.

So what came to my mind was I ran a marathon. And you know, the old classic joke, like, how do you know somebody ran a marathon? Don't worry. They'll tell you like, yeah, here I am because it is proof. Oh my gosh, it's a badge of freaking honor. Right? Um, but I don't know, like that, it was something I really wanted, like now looking back, I'm like, did I really wanna do that?

Or at least in the moment when I was running that race, I was like, why did I wanna do this? What is wrong with me? I must be sick in the head. But it's funny because I did really wanna do it. I wanted to say that I could physically accomplish something that, that hard. And also for me. I'm not gonna romanticize marathons.

The race day was horrible. It was a really bad day. I woke up really off. I didn't run my best time. It wasn't very fun. Yeah, the training was really, really fun. Surprisingly because every time I set out on my Saturday runs, and the first time I had to run 10 miles because that was in my training program.

I was like, oh my gosh, 10 miles is gonna take me all morning and I'm gonna be so tired. And then four weeks, five weeks later, I'm like, okay, it's a 15 miler this Saturday, and 10 miles feels easy. [00:18:00] And that was like a delight to me to be able to just sort of line 'em up and knock 'em down. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh.

I don't even have any, I, I don't even know what to do with that. Like, yeah. Sorry. I mean running. I'm so stumped. Listen, in the nineties I ran because I wanted to get married and the boys I liked were runners. So I did a 5K and I did a 10 K, but a marathon that's not, yeah. Like I said, I was probably a little sick in the head.

No, I love that you had that goal. I am so envious. Wow. That is a gift. Then to finish, hit that finish line and get that medal. Whoa. Yeah. Awesome. And it was hard like the whole day. Like I said, that wasn't the fun part, but the building blocks really like made up that difference. It was so, it was so cool.

It's so cool to look back on. I like that you just said the building blocks. Okay, so we are gonna take everything you guys just said, and we're only gonna study one verse section 93 verse one. It has a reward at the end, but the building blocks to get there, we're gonna list. So let's just go to 93 verse one, and here we go.

And we're going to go, just go to the very end of that verse. And when you see the word shall, I want you to put an equal sign over. The word shall. If you have a red pen, that would be awesome because this is what the reward or the gift is. We're gonna start with the gift. We're gonna go there because I imagine that both of you already knew the gift you wanted, you wanted a degree, and Sarah, you wanted to cross that finish line.

So let's just start out with what we're gonna get before we even know what we need to do to get it. Because I think that's kind of how life works. You're like, that would be so cool to have that. And you get psyched up about it, but then sometimes you realize what you have to do to get it, and that's where the rubber hits the road.

Am I right? And you're like, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if I wanna do that. Hmm. So hit the shall put the equal sign. Here's what we get. Here is the gift. Sarah, will you read what is the equals or the shall? Shall see my face and know that I am. That's the gift. We will see the [00:20:00] savior's face and know that he is.

So let's go back into the very beginning then and find out what are the building blocks. I like how you said that, Sarah. What do we have to do to then? What are the calculuses in our life that we're gonna have to get through to really get to be able to see and know Jesus Christ? So Sarah, start at the beginning now, and as Sarah reads this, I'd love for you to just take a pen and number what you notice that we have to do.

Okay? Put it barely, thus, say the Lord. It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaken his sins and cometh unto me and calleth upon my name and obey with my voice and keepeth my commandments shall see my face and know that I am. Okay, let's number those. What are the building blocks that you saw? We start out at the very beginning with every soul.

I highlighted that. So I love this because that means everybody gets the chance. It's not just all the people who are really, really, um, physically capable like Sarah. And it's not the really, really smart math people, like every single soul can do this. So here we go. List them for me. What'd you find? One verse sakes their sentence.

Awesome. Very good. Two calleth on my name. Ooh, before that. Oh, two cometh unto me. Very good. Yes. Then three calleth on my name. What's the next one you saw Cole for? Obey My Voice. Mm-hmm. And then the last one, keepeth My Commandments. Very good. I have a question for the two of you, because when I looked at these, they seem pretty straightforward.

Okay. Not easy, just straightforward. Like, I know what we need to do. But then I wondered, what do you think the difference is between obey with my voice and keep of my commandments? So I thought, um, obey, obey versus keep. That was like an interesting distinction. So to me. It kind of puts into perspective that this is a true and living church and that it's this church of restoration.

Because I think that keeping Commandments are [00:22:00] maybe in my head, and this could be, I could be a little bit off here, but they're, they're more fixed, like mm-hmm. The commandments. I could like almost list them or tick 'em off my fingers, right. Obey if my voice, that was where, that was where the more personalization piece came in.

There are going to be times where personal revelation comes into our life that we have to obey his voice or we have to say, is this really for me? And we kinda have to make more of a decision than maybe keeping a commandment would. I don't know, Tammy. That's where my brain first went. Oh. Oh. I don't know the answer, so I love that.

You just, okay, good. No, no. That's one of my favorite things is to ask a question. I have no idea what the answer is. 'cause I don't know. I, I think it is personal and I love that you said that. Hmm. The idea of obeying his voice is personal and it's revelation that I've received because I, yeah. When I read those two things, I thought, well, keeping his commandments isn't not the same as obeying his voice.

But I love that that the connection you made for it to be a personal thing in light of the restoration, that's pretty cool. But what'd you think, Cole? I, I think I like that better than mine. Um, but I, I was viewing it as a progression through those things that he's listing off. Right? So first you have to repent.

You have to forsake your sins and come onto Christ. Then you pray, you call upon his name, then you're obeying his voice. Then you, then you need to know what it is that you're supposed to do. Hear the voice, obey the voice, and then. Ke then go do then keep the commandments. Mm. That's great that you have now learned and forsaken and, and asked him to understand.

See now that, that is so cool And that is exactly how I would think a mathematician would see this. And I'm not even saying I'm being sincere like Yeah, A plus B plus C plus D equals start C my face. It's a formula. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's a formula. That is so cool. Cole. I really like that formula. So let me ask, I know knowing Sarah, um, 'cause we've been working together on these like different projects.

The fact that she talked about building blocks whenever she was working towards her goal and the way that she sees it makes sense for, for a more type a mm-hmm. Box check mm-hmm. Mentality that, that she has. Um, where if you can see what the things are, yeah. [00:24:00] Then you can check the boxes and then you can get to where you're going.

Like that kind of matches, um, how Sarah approaches a lot of things. Yeah, totally. I'm the same way, Sarah. I love to check things off. Totally. In fact, if I have a lot of things to do in one day and I get to the end of the day and I didn't put a list, I will create my own list and just have the satisfaction of crossing everything off.

Even though it's already done, I've been there. Right. Yeah. Just so I go, I did so much today. So much. Yeah. Well, and it's funny too 'cause I am also kind of a compartmentalizer, so I, I think it's interesting that I decided obey my voices here and keep my commitments is here. 'cause I'm kind of compartmentalizing how that might look in my own life.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think you're both right. Yeah. I think that was great. So let me ask you this then going back to, and I quoted Matthew McBride, he's a church historian. Mm-hmm. He's the one who said that section 93 was bold and new. And I was just curious to know how does, just even verse one, we're just gonna take verse one.

How do you think verse one departs from traditional religious ideas of 1833 or even today? How does verse one turn religion on its head? I mean, forgot to have a voice and a face at all, um, is, is a differentiation from a lot of mainstream Christianity that view a, you know, a, a formless shapeless, but all present and all knowing and all being kind of a God that we believe in a heavenly father that we are made after his likeness.

So if we have faces, he has a face, and if we have a voice, then our heavenly parents have voices to communicate to us as well. Right. That's a good answer. Yeah, I like that. And I, I would, I would only just add, I think that it's, you know, every soul that's sometimes unique, we kind of, there, I, I don't know a ton about mainstream Christianity and like, I'm not brushed up on all that, but I know that we have a very, um.

What's the word I'm looking for? Accessible gospel. Mm-hmm. [00:26:00] Like we let everyone into the temple once they have made the, the commitment and the commandments to go there. Yeah. So just like even the steps that Cole is saying, these progressive steps of call my name and obey my voice. Like that's, to me, that doesn't feel the same as maybe what, uh, that's, these are the qualifications and they're, they're tangible and real and, you know, we know them.

We know that other Christianity is still kind of catching up to that because Pope Francis, who fairly recently passed away Right. Had a Yeah. Wonderful quote towards the end of his life where he hoped that hell would be empty. Mm-hmm. That no one, and so beautiful. That is, that's something that we dogmatically agree with.

Yes. Yeah. Yes, you're absolutely right. But it, but it caused controversy within Catholicism because it has been traditionally such a, a fire in brimstone, sort of mm-hmm. You know, evil motivation. Like you don't want to go there, so do the right thing, kind of a, a church for a very, very long time. And so for Pope Francis to turn that on his head, it made a lot of people question.

And yet that's also what we hope, hopefully that, that we preach as well with degrees of glory and so on. Mm-hmm. Isn't that beautiful? I love that we have that knowledge and that it's so personal. I, I, yes. I love that idea that he said, no one in hell. Let's, let's all return home. And that's the invitation in verse one.

And here's how you do it. So this has been such a fascinating discussion. Thank you for both of you. What you contributed with that. And so then we have that equal sign, shall see my face and know that I am. And so with that then I like how in section 93 for me, I read it. Where then I thought when he says, shall see my face and know that I am now, he's going to say to us, and by the way, let me tell you who I am so that you can be prepared with what you're going to see.

And we're gonna find out who he is. In the next segment,

Segment 3

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grab a highlighter because we're gonna go into section 93 and I ask my guests to [00:28:00] get a highlighter and to highlight everything they learned about Jesus just from verses one through 17. That's it. 'cause he says, look, you can see my face and know that I am. So let me tell you about me. What did you guys mark?

Give us the verse and we're gonna go ahead and highlight it too, just to match your scriptures. So verse four, uh, right after it's the father because, so we're verse, uh, let's go back even further. So like verse three and four, we learned about the nature of the Godhead. Um, and then it keeps going on. But in verse three, it's that I am in the father, and the father and me and the father and I are one the father because he gave me Christ of his fullness.

And the son, because I was in the world and made flesh of my tabernacle and dwelt among the sons of men. And then later when we get the story of the. Of Christ's baptism, we learn of the Holy Ghost coming down in the form of dove. And so one of the bold new doctrines is again, this nature of Christ and the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Mm, perfect. I love that you set it up with verse three. 'cause that would've been, don't you love how he takes a belief system they would've had at this time that the Father and the Holy Ghost are one, and then he separates them. And let me tell you how they're different. Yeah. And I love that you included his baptism, which we'll get to later.

So, very cool, Cole. Thank you. I've highlighted that in verse four. I love it. Um, I have a few different highlights. One is verse two, just the, the two words, true light, because we're gonna, I know we're gonna talk later on about truth and light, but to be the true light was interesting to me. Why? Tell me why.

Well, like what is a true light? Yeah, that was, it was more just a question like, I think I have to understand that a little better because there's light. Light looks like different in a lot of different forms, but what's true light, and I think it's what I've interpreted and just who I know the savior, it's, it's all the light, it's all things.

That's kind of how I interpreted that. [00:30:00] I like it. I, I can give a personal story here. So like, understanding what true light is. I, I'm colorblind and I am, I don't realize how colorblind I am until I talk to people and we look at a rainbow and they always point to their shirt and say, Hey, what color is this?

And it's a fun party trick that I don't know what color it is, but, and so at some point, hopefully in the resurrection, I'll understand what like true colors and all color is, is light coming into our optic nerves, right? So at some point I will see what the true color really was that I wasn't seeing for this whole earthly sojo.

And also my, my mother who has been on this podcast actually is a blind blind, right? So I always say I'm, I'm half blind genetically, even though my mom's, my mom's blind 'cause of, um, a mistake that happened in the hospital when she was just a baby baby. But, so my mom hasn't seen any kind of light for her whole life.

And so to see true light eventually, um, and to have that illuminated to her is going to be quite the experience. Wow. Well, you just taught me something, Cole, because when you said the way we see colors is light, that is so brilliant. And now I'm just realizing, oh my goodness, how cool that he is. The true light that light it, everything we see.

So he is the only light that gives us the colors and the fulfillment and the goodness of life. Mm. Wow. That's cool. So love that. I just learned that. Okay. And then I had one more thing I wanted to point out. I was reading this whole chapter out loud. I kind of have a, a little quirk where I like to read things out loud.

I, when I text message, I like say what I'm saying out loud. Love it. Cool. Yeah. And I was reading this in verse 12 and 13, kind of stumbled me. Maybe I could pull this up and we could talk about it. But we're talking about John the Baptist and he's, he says, I, John saw that he received not. Not of the fullness at first, but received grace for Grace 13.

And he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace until he received a fullness. I'm confused actually. Or like [00:32:00] what is the, what's the semantics here? Isn't that so cool? Mm-hmm. Okay. First of all, I hope you all heard what Sarah said, that this John is John the Baptist. So go to verse six.

Oh, sorry, did I jump ahead? No. Okay. You did not? No. Okay. Sarah, I'm so glad you said this. Go to verse six because verse six says, and John saw and bore record of the fullness of my glory and the fullness of John's record is hereafter to be revealed. That is John the Baptist, not the Apostle John. So it's important for us to know that.

And in fact, I asked you guys, and I just was, I'm curious to know what effect did it have on you when you read these verses, knowing it's coming from John the Baptist? 'cause it changed the way I read these verses.

Well, I, I was like mostly surprised just 'cause you get John the Revelator so many times in scripture and typically he is like the one who you learn all these things about the savior with, 'cause he walked with him so much and he was like mm-hmm. The beloved apostle right. Then knowing it was John the Baptist, uh, you know, John was the one who baptized him, who was the prep.

He prepared the way for him. So, going back to what I said in segment one, like, I really need to know the savior. Yeah. Because that's what John, that was, it was kind of a reflection of like, that's, John had to get to know the savior in this way too. Yes, you're absolutely right. And in a section where we're gonna learn so much about Christ, it makes sense.

It's coming from the perspective of John who came before and introduced Christ to the people back then. And he's in a way, at the beginning of this section, introducing us to Christ, the we learn. That's so cool. Yeah. Yes. Okay, so let's go to verses 12 and 13. 'cause this is so fun. Yeah. So I love this teaching.

It makes me so happy. 'cause it gives me hope. That's what it does. It gave me hope for the way that I can learn. So here we have verses 12 and 13, that the Savior didn't receive a fullness at first, but he receives grace for the grace he's been given. Mm. Isn't that beautiful? Like for [00:34:00] every amount of grace you give to someone, you'll receive that amount of grace back.

And we learn about this in the book of Alma, it's called The Law of Restoration. And my favorite story ever told about this was a professor from Weber State Cal. Stevens, I love this man so much. And he taught me this lesson when he said he had a son who was sitting in the chapel. It was about sacrament was about to start and they needed someone to prepare the sacrament.

And he went up to his son and said, Hey, can you go do that? They need a helper. There's, they need one more priest. And the kids said, I do it every week, dad. Like it's someone else's turn. I'm always the one who's here. I'm tired of it. Like someone else should have to do that. And Cal has very calmly taught us and said, I, at that moment, I said to my son, and I'm sure he is always teaching his kids this.

The moment you begin to measure. Your service in this church is when the Lord will measure it back to you in exactness. Hmm. Be careful what you measure. And I thought I have said that before. I have said I'm always the one that does it always. And, and Cal said you can do that. Go ahead and measure no problem.

But if you're only going to give the Lord four cups and two tablespoons worth of service, then be prepared for him to only give you four cups and two tablespoons of grace when all is said and done. So right here you can see that there was no end to Christ's grace, so there was no end to out the amount he received in return.

So that's grace, for grace. And then 13, he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace until he received the fullness. Now tell me what you see as a difference between those. When we think of grace, for grace, he's getting it in his life, but he's gonna continue on in life grace to grace until he receives an absolute fullness.

Hmm. I, I mean, I think for me to go from I, in my brain, I've always like, I think growing up [00:36:00] in the church, grace to grace, grace for like, I think I've always muddled through whatever the preposition is between them, because that's just another way to say, yeah, we're gonna progress little by little poco poco, like it's just grace to grace.

Um mm-hmm. But now to actually like break it out and think about it, this is how I need to just barely survive. Like, just barely making it from this grace to the next grace that I need to the next grace that I need. Because we need Christ's grace in everything that we do. And so the only way that we'll make it is by just hanging on and crawling from one grace to the next that we can receive because Christ is grace.

Yeah. Do you see that? Yeah. Like he received grace for grace until he became grace. Oh yeah. He received grace to grace receiving of the fullness and that's, that is the interpretation thereof is that, is that he was never, when he came here on earth, he had to learn and just like us, which I love, until he became, that's that talk by Elder Oaks, which we love.

The idea of what, it's not so much what we do in this life. It's what we become. And he became grace all encompassing. He became our savior, he became our redeemer. He's all the words that encompass that word grace, which I think is so awesome. That's awesome. Thank you for opening that up for me. That's a good question.

Yeah, no, I'm glad you asked that question. That's so good. Yeah. Any other verses then that you marked? Anything else about him you learned? It just after all these verses that, that John is saying, what he bears record of and that he received. So at 17, he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the father was with him for he dwelt in him.

And then I, I really like verse 18. It shall come to pass that if you are faithful, you shall receive the fullness of the record of John. I just like, I get to prepare the way for the savior in my own life. Kind of a feeling. Yeah. Oh, that's good. We're gonna connect that to our next segment then, Sarah, because here's what's so cool about what we've learned is, so the savior wants us [00:38:00] to know more about him, but not just him.

He also wants us to know about ourselves. We're gonna show you what we mean in the next segment.

Segment 4

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So I'm gonna brag on Cole for just a minute as my producer, this is some fun behind the scenes. For those of you listening who've been with this for while this was not in the show notes, Tammy, I don't know what's about to happen. This is not, Cole doesn't know, I'm gonna say this. Cole has an absolute gift and he's actually said to me, if there was just one job where he could do this all the time, he would like say, sign me up, pay me to do this.

Here's what Cole does. Oftentimes we'll have guests and they will say things truly, you guys are hearing how the magic happens. They will say things off the cuff, like you just kind of get in this rhythm where you start talking about scripture things and then you remember a quote and then you're like, yeah, I think Elder Ballard said, da da da da da.

Back in 19, whatever, da da, da. Especially you. Very, very smart guests that can do this much better than I'm going to on this, having to be in their chair. Oftentimes when we have scholars, they do that, they'll say something like, oh, and then he said this, and he's, and we're all over the place, and the three, the three of us who have heard these talks, we know what we're talking about.

But when you guys go to the show notes, or even in this, you have to know, well, wait. Did, when did he say that? Like it wouldn't make sense if we kept it the way it is. So Cole, as a producer, he hears that he can find like he has the greatest. Ask Google in his brain. I don't even know how he asks so fast 'cause I can't Google anything.

Some people have the gift of Google. They really do. There you go. I'll take that. Cole does. He can find things so fast. Before we even finish our conversation. Cole comes back and he says, okay, actually here's who said it. Here's when they said it. And then he pulls up his screen and goes, here's the actual quote if you wanna read it.

So sometimes when we sound really buttoned up, perfect when we're quoting someone, it's a trick. Not more often than not, it's Cole who found the quote because we weren't planning on sharing it and we just happened to in the spirit's there. And so Cole is really good at that. Now I have to tell you that because back in when we did doctrine and Covenant section [00:40:00] 76.

We did that, the three of us, we kept saying quotes and there were some that they came prepared with and some that we weren't really that prepared with. But our guest, Jennifer Brinkerhoff Platt, who is so brilliant, she quoted Joseph Smith perfectly. But then we needed the reference, and Cole found it, and I'm going to use it again because this, this quote that she shared with us applies so perfectly to section 93.

So Cole, I'm gonna even let you read the quote. Are you ready? Okay. Yeah. Here we go. What did Joseph Smith say in teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith on page 40? As Cole found for us, if men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves. There you go. So that is section 93, because he says, here am I.

You get to see me now let me tell you about me. Oh, but by the way, let me teach you about you. And so in section 93. We have some really cool things that, yes, they're about the savior, but they also teach us about ourselves. So for instance, the first thing right out of the gate, and we already talked about this verse in section 93, verse 12 and 13, it talks to us about how the savior learned, and then also verse 20, I've connected those together.

I put 12, 13 and drew a line and connected to verse 20. And verse 20 says, for if you keep my commandments, you shall receive of his fullness and be glorified in me as I am in the Father. Therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace. For grace. There's that beautiful connection again. And so I connected it to us.

Here's a really cool quote. It's by Lorenzo Snow who talks about how the Savior learned, and then it helps us understand how we learn. Sarah, can you read this quote by Lorenzo Snow? When Jesus lay in the manger a helpless infant, he knew not that he was the son of God and that formerly he created the earth.

When the edict of Herod was issued, he knew nothing of it. He had not power to save himself and his father and mother had to take him and fly into Egypt to preserve him from the effects of that edict. Well, he grew up into manhood, and [00:42:00] during his progress it was revealed unto him who he was and for what purpose he was in the world.

The glory and power he possessed before he came into the world was made known unto him. Thank you. How does that teach you about yourself when it comes to learning? Well, I think that. What it teaches me is that the, the, I have opportunities given to me to learn. Mm-hmm. Like the savior. I, I almost think it would've been, I don't know, go with me here.

It would've almost been cruel if this baby had to know everything all at once, and then this 12-year-old boy or this whatever, right? Like there is mercy, even in the way the savior grew up into himself, which is so amazing that, that, that is turned right back on me and I have so much mercy to learn and possess the, the power and the glory that will come to me.

Grace for grace. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Sarah. I had never considered that the savior experienced mercy in growth. Oh, that's cool. I like that. And, and he received what he was ready for. Right. The, the most famous misquote of the savior of all time is that God won't give us anything the word not ready for, but it is like, kind of true sometimes, even if it's not biblical.

Love that quote. Um, and that when, when Christ was ready for his next step. He was perfect at it and he got there, but it wasn't until he was ready. Right. It's uh, for everything there is a time and a purpose and a season. Mm-hmm. Unto heaven when we are ready and when we are ready to go to the next thing.

That is when it shall be given unto us. Oh, absolutely. Excellent job. Okay, so I prepped these guests by giving them that and then saying, is there anything else in this section that taught you about yourself when you learned it about Jesus? What'd you come up with? So I like verse 29 in this, in this set of section that we've pulled out.

Um, man was also in the beginning with God intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made. Neither indeed can [00:44:00] be. I love, I mean, I just think what it's, it's a really sweet sentiment man was also in the beginning with God. Like, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy like parenting, like my, my dad and my mom are there.

You know, like that's just the feeling it evokes. But then I, you know what's funny? I was not prepared for math to come up more than once, but here we go. So this is what came to mind. Um, intelligence was not created or made. We've always been there. We've always been in God's plan. Like intelligence was not.

Just he, he didn't, he brought us in because it was always existing, I guess is what I'm thinking. And it again, it makes, it takes me back to, to math class. I am, I'm not bad at math. I'm not like coal. But I actually did enjoy it too. And maybe that's where our brains sometimes connect coal. But I think it's like intelligence, obviously, right?

You think of math, that's, that's a word that is very associated with, at least in my head, but you have to learn math slowly and then your teacher will teach you in, when you get into calculus or something, that there's this equation that has always existed and everything clicks into place once you can like start using that equation.

And then the math problem becomes much easier and it's always existed, right? But once you know that like the math, the math even becomes sort of sensical and even like delightful if you're crazy like Cole. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, oh, this is kind of fun and I'm learning this. And I just think that that's how I.

Maybe picture God, like the plan's always with us in mind and with us always existing. That equation, you just have to discover it, you have to know it, and then be taught it and kind of that intelligence becomes even more valuable to you. I like how you used the word clicks. Like once you learn it, it starts to click.

We all know that feeling, right? Yeah. Isn't that true when it comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ, once you start to learn things, it starts to click yes, because it's always existed. Like Joseph Smith didn't come up with any of this, he's just restored all of it. Yeah, it's existed on all of God's [00:46:00] creations and it works.

It absolutely works. So that's a very cool connection, Sarah. I like that. Thank you. When I was thinking about how this relates between us and Christ, it was verse 27 that I marked down. It's no man receives that full receiveth of fullness unless he keepeth the commandments. And we know that Christ was perfect at keeping those commandments.

And so he received the fullness of what he was supposed to do on this Earth. And in order for us to get to that same point, right in light, in order for us to progress the same way, the prerequisite here is keep the commandments. Yeah. Oh, I like that Cole. In fact, one of the things I noticed is how many times this section talk says that phrase receive of his fullness.

And it goes back to our discussion on verses 12 and 13, because now I'm connecting it to the savior. And with what you said, Cole, is that he had to learn this way, keeping his commandments until he received of the fullness. And so I love that receive of the fullness. Like there's something about that idea receive of the fullness, I imagine.

Like that's everything. That's what we're here for, to go back to God's presence. And even Christ had to do that, but he was a God. Like, it's just mind blowing. Yeah. And I think that's really interesting when you consider him on the cross that he didn't have even as a, so it says as a baby, that quote we read as a baby, he couldn't save himself from Herod's edict.

Right. But even on the cross, he couldn't save himself. He was still learning, still in the process of receiving a fullness, that must have been the hardest lesson of all. And it had to be learned, you know? Yeah. Like, it couldn't be just given, it had to be learned and, and earned and that, and that goes back the way that, and again, I, I could be totally wrong in the way that I was interpreting verse one anyway.

The under? I don't think so. The difference between obeying my voice and keeping the commandments right, it's, it's, it's one thing to know theoretically or mathematically or whatever, like, [00:48:00] it's one thing to have the theory of, okay, I need to go to Gethsemane. I need to suffer for all these sins as Christ.

But the, the theory of it wasn't enough. He truly came here and then ex and experienced all the things that we would, or the people who had died before him did experience. Yeah. He, he got that practical application to it, to go along with the, the theory and, and it even goes like cosmically back to the understanding that things were prepared before that they were created.

Right. Spiritually before temporarily, or mm-hmm. That we have to know the theory. And we have to experience and practically go do things too. Yeah. Now my mind is swirling with this because I wonder if the ultimate last lesson, which is the hardest one for me, was when the savior had to ultimately and lastly say, not my will thine.

I wonder if that was like the last thing to receive of the fullness. Because in Gethsemane that was where he was like, and, and 'cause he even asked three times like, don't make me do this. I I don't wanna do this. And I love when you go in and look at the Greek words in Matthew and Mark where it says he was heavy.

He was so amazed he was depressed. In fact, one of the words in Greek says he was so sad he it depressed and anguish unto death, like just wanted to die. He was so sad. Wow. Because that's the hardest thing there is to do in this life is to say, not my will, but mine. Hmm. That's brutal. Hmm. I, I mean, I'd never heard that, Tammy, but it, it would make sense if the savior would feel so bad that he wanted that, that he couldn't bear to go on, because there are a lot of people who have then lived on this earth that have felt just so terribly and in the depths of it that they couldn't go on.

Yeah. Um, so he would've had to feel that too. I can't imagine that. No. Wow. I love Jesus. Yeah. [00:50:00] Anything else you marked then that connected you to the savior that you learned about yourself? I just love the agency part of these scriptures as well. Like please share that with us. 'cause that's a fun verse.

Yeah. It's verse 31, right. Well. Mm-hmm. 30 and 31. Yeah. 30. Yeah. So 30 says all truth is independent in that sphere, which God has placed it to act for itself as all intelligence also. Otherwise, there is no existence. Behold, here's the agency of man and here's the condemnation of man, because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest under them and they receive not the light.

And then every we, we can go on. But I just think, I love that it's independent to act for itself again. Like this is just such a merciful character of God that we get, we get to sort of hear exactly how merciful he is in these verses. Yeah. And that connection to here is the agency and here is the condemnation.

Yeah. That, that's what I saw. Because tell me why, as why as soon as you give someone ages, as soon as you give 'em the choice to do something, they'll probably make the wrong choice. But that is how it's gotta work. Yeah. Which is why that verse falls, uh, on a, on a flat note. Right. They receive not the light.

Like, it's like, oh, okay. Tough. Yeah. Yeah. And how important agency is in this. And when in the next segment we're gonna connect it to this idea of light and truth, which is so awesome. But I think the thing that floors me about this is, I remember years ago, one of my very best friends said, God cares more about our agency than he even does about our happiness.

And that did not sit well. I was so mad about that. I'm like, that is not true. That is ridiculous. Mm-hmm. God wants us to be happy. And she's like, well, of course he wants us to be happy, but that's not the same thing. He cares more about our agency than he does about our happiness because agency's so important to why we're here and what we're learning.

That if he only cared about our happiness Satan's plan, that would've been the pick. And that blew my mind, and that made me, it kind of helped put it into perspective. Like, oh, that's why so [00:52:00] much yuck in the world. Like, ugh, people make, yeah. To their condemnation. Right. And then it made me think of my own, like, what am I doing with my agency?

Boy, I hope it's not turning to my condemnation. It has. Let's not kid ourselves. There have been times in my life, but that's life. That's life. But to think that here I am in my, the all truth is independent in the sphere in which God has placed it in my sphere. And am I acting for myself? And what does that look like?

I don't know. I know you guys are. Give me what your brains are thinking with verse 30, because you guys are, you think on a higher plane. 'cause you know math. I know Cole. Does Cole give me what your thoughts are with that. No, it's, it's different when you start talking about that agency and, and like learning as you go.

I think about, uh, if, if the world was just full of a lot of 80-year-old octogenarians that had already lived in an experienced, most of 'em were making better choices at that point in their lives than they were in their twenties. Yeah. But the way that the world works is that there's always a new crop of idiot young people.

And I've, I'm still like, just, I, I'm at the cusp of idiot young people, um, and just making like weird decisions in a different way. But, um. There's always new people learning the same old tried and true lessons, but we all have to learn it. Old people can give us as much wisdom as they have. Right.

President Russell Nelson is a prophet of God and he is also just a very wise old man who can give us really good life advice if we would listen to it, and he can give us direction from God. Mm-hmm. And yet there's always more young people to make more bad decisions because you gotta learn. And eventually we will all be old people that are hopefully making some better decisions.

Oh, I like that connection, Cole. That's so true. Well, and in verse 30 it says, all truth is independent in the sphere, which God has placed it. So truth is truth. Like that's what that's saying. It cannot be changed. It is. Free to act for itself. And, and same with the, all the intelligence. So I just think like, if you wanna talk about math, like those are the things that [00:54:00] they exist, you can, you can try to work your way around them.

You can try to change the laws of gravity, but truth is truth, it won't change. That's one of the best ways I've heard. Verse 30 explained. That was awesome. Sarah. Look at you two math people. I'm not a math person. I know we say I don't like public math. Let me tell you how not math. Sarah. I am. If I have to double a recipe, I'm doing a half cup twice.

I'm not doing one that's actually smart. I'm not doing one cup. I know that one. But if like three-fourths plus three-fourths, I don't even know what that is. I'm doing three-fourths twice. Tammy, I don't bake. Don't even try to teach me. I don't bake clearly. I don't either. So that is a great way to describe verse 30.

So thank you. Oh my gosh. Talk about like turning the world on its head. This the way Sarah said, it can't be more clear. There is not moral relativism, there is truth. And philosophers have been wondering what is truth forever. Mm-hmm. And God has told us that there is just the one truth. The one truth. Well, and then the next segment, then we are going to mark the word truth and talk about it in connection to the word light.

So this is gonna be fun. Grab a yellow highlighter for the next segment.

Segment 5

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Grab a yellow highlighter and I have an assignment for you. I'm gonna give you the assignment that I want you to pause the podcast. Go do it, then come back. Here's what you're gonna do throughout section 93. Highlight every time you see the words truth and the word light. Okay? Highlight them as fast you can.

And then when you come back, we're gonna give you a count for how many times you see truth and light in section 93.

Okay? You two, what did you find? 'cause I asked you guys to do this before you came. How many times did you find the word truth and then the word light Cole. This is gonna be embarrassing for all the math that we've been talking about. If we come up with two different numbers, Sarah, I, well, okay, but I did do [00:56:00] 24 through 42 only.

Okay. Wait, I did two. So I have two different numbers in my, in my notes here. One that was just in that scripture chunk, and then one was for the whole section. Okay, so tell me for the whole section, what'd you come up with? Light is mentioned 13 times. Okay. And truth is in there sort of 18, but 19. If you include in that verse two that Sarah said, like true light, so truth specifically is 18 and then true is in there One more time.

Oh, that's really cool. Okay. I put that in my scriptures. You're right, light is 13, truth is 18. So there must be something important about light and truth. So we're gonna go to verses 24 through 42 where the majority of them are. Sarah, you have a count. How many times did you find them there? Hey, I got truth 14 times.

Cole? Uh, yeah. Yeah, I had 15 actually. Okay. I hope it's, I hope I'm wrong. And light, I got nine. I got then for like, yeah, well now we gotta go count it. 14 or 15? Yeah, 14 or 15 in verses 24 through 42. Yes. Okay. Oh, I might've included the one because 23 says truth, so maybe that's where I got my extra one. I bet you're right.

Yeah. Okay's. Go Sarah. Okay, well if not, someone's gonna correct us on social media. So there you go. Alright, those are big numbers. So we are solely going to study right now verses 24 through 42. And that's a lot of times to find the words light and truth. And so I wanted to know, here we go. Let's just read a couple of these verses.

Let's read verses 24 through 26. That's where we're going to, um, go. And then we'll skip over to verses 36 through 42 and highlight these. So Cole, will you read 24 through 26? Yes. Truth is knowledge of things as they are and as they were, and as they are to come. And whatsoever is more or less than. This is the spirit of that wicked one [00:58:00] who was a liar from the beginning.

The spirit of truth is of God. I am the spirit of truth. And John bore record of me saying he received a fullness of truth. Yay, even of all truth. Thank you. I love this cross reference to the side. I put John chapter 14, verse six, and that verse of scripture says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. So that's John 14, six.

But then this is cool because then the next cross reference you wanna put to the side is John 8 32, and John chapter eight, verse 32 then says, the truth shall make you free. So if Christ is the way, the truth and the life, then who's going to make us free? Christ, he's the truth. So that is important for us to understand about truth.

Okay, now let's keep going on with truth. Go to verse 36 and we'll each take a verse and we're gonna read 36 through 42. And we'll start with Sarah, then we'll go Sarah Cole, me. Okay. 36. The glory of God is intelligence. Or in other words, light and truth. Light and truth. Forsake that evil one, every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning.

And God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth through disobedience from the children of men and because of the tradition of their fathers. But I have commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.

But verily I say unto you, my servant Frederick g Williams, you have continued under this condemnation. You have not taught your children light and truth according to the commandments. And that wicked one have power as yet over you. And this is the cause of your affliction. Okay, so one of the things we've learned is we've connected Christ with light and Christ with truth.

And that's interesting in verse 42 because I am understanding this to say Frederick GG Williams wasn't teaching his children about Christ. Hmm. I think that is really interesting. I dunno if he was or wasn't, but that's how I'm interpreting this. And I [01:00:00] asked you guys to come ready to discuss because I wanted to know why did you think light and truth are good titles for Jesus Christ?

That, I mean, this is the way that we've traditionally learned light and truth in the LDS tradition is that light illuminates what the truth is. And so if all things are coming from Christ, if we know all things through Christ, then he is. The, so he's the light that shows us what the truth is, but then also he is the one truth that we see with that light.

Right. Oh, I like that. Yes. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I feel like a lot of us have probably had maybe certain discussions on light a lot. Like we, we, we referenced Elder Bednar mm-hmm. Has those patterns of light video. Um, I, I hope I don't get off topic too much here, but like, when I think of light, what kind of came to my mind first was, um, I, weirdly enough the summer solstice, like I love when the days get longer.

I love the light that like the world finally turns and there's so much more green on the earth and there's so much more joy to me. I mean, I like the winter for other reasons, but just it feels like light is joy to me, and I think that's a good. Representation of the savior. We know all these things about, like all these, here we go with si, science and math.

Again, we're women and STEM here. This is so cool. I love it. How hilarious. I'm like, not a science girly, but it's just, I think of the, like the, all the, the qualities we know about light. We know light is like what it gives life to things and it's the only way plants can grow. It's how photosynthesis works.

It's all these, there's all these scientific things that I just think are very apt metaphors for life and for truth and for who the savior is and what he embodies. I, one thing about light that I love is light is [01:02:00] instantaneous. At least visible light. Yeah. You turn on a light and it solves your problem right away.

If you ever have woken up in the middle of the night and you're looking for something because you like had a panic attack, well, where's this thing? And you turn on the light, you can find it. You know, you know it. It's not possible without that light flicking on almost immediately. Um. And I think that light is delightful.

Like it, there's beautiful sunsets that simply just exist because the light is hitting at the right spot. There's just all these things that I think, of course, that's who the savior is. Like he wants to solve our problems right away, and he wants to bring us joy right away, and he wants to create beautiful vistas for us to hike mountains and look over and just feel peace.

I like that you connected light and truth with joy. Hmm. Because I have a question for both of you. I wanna know, has there been a time in your life where the Lord has given you light or truth or joy? Has there been a time where you have been illuminated with more knowledge? That's the other. That's the way I translate light and truth.

You've been illuminated with knowledge, which brought you joy. Uh, yeah, sure. Like what? Honestly, just what comes to mind is maybe the day to day. I tend to go through times where I'm like, oh, this is hard, or whatever. I'm, I, and it's, there's not maybe one specific trial I'm going through. I'm just like, oh, I'm feeling like down or sad, or having a rough day or a rough week, and then mm-hmm.

And then the way that just turning to the savior is more, is so instantaneous. I think that brings a knowledge to me, a knowledge that God's going to get me through it because he has before and there's patterns again and again. The sun always comes up Right. To, to harp on the metaphor even further, who taught you about Christ, Sarah?

Oh, man. That's a awesome question. I know that I, I mean, definitely, definitely my parents. Mm-hmm. I was raised privileged to be raised in a home where the savior was, was so talked about, but. I also just think of the, somebody once told me [01:04:00] to get like spiritual mentors throughout your life, and so I just think of different spiritual mentors.

I think of people who I can say, I have this really real question about the nature of God or the nature of this part of the dego, the gospel and having, having a mentor who can lead me to Christ, but also answer to difficult questions. I think that's who's taught me about Christ throughout my life. Oh, that's a great answer.

You've been taught light and truth. Yeah. Cole, who's taught you about Christ? Well, the, the knowledge half of this answer is I get to edit this podcast called Sunday, on Monday, every single week. And so I learn new light that I can take with me on a weekly basis for the job that I get a paycheck for. Like this, like, so my, my parents are wonderful, wonderful people and I was also raised in the church and, and in a home where trying to, where understanding scripture was as important as being able to know any piece of pop culture, anything else.

And so my parents were wonderful. And now a spiritual mentor that I have is, is also Tammy. 'cause I get to Oh, hear a Come Follow Me podcast. I have your single week. I mean, even as we were reading, hold on, because we were reading in DNC 93 and the, the first chunk that we read. Verses 24 through 26 in DNC 93.

And something that I learned on this podcast came immediately to mind. Where in verse 25, it says, and whatsoever is more or less than, this is the spirit of the wicked one. And Tammy has taught me and I, and I don't even remember exactly what the Ference is, and hopefully you'll be able to help me out here.

But like the more or less is something that I had never thought about until listening to this podcast. We had an episode, I don't know, maybe even a year ago or something where that, that scriptural point came up. Mm-hmm. Where it was with my friend Amy Stokes. Okay. And she asked, she's like, what does that mean?

More or less? And remember, or less, she had written it in her journal the night before the answer. And yet that was such a cool moment when she asked, what does that mean, more or less? [01:06:00] And that it would be of the wicked one. That was good. Keep going. What'd you learn that it's possible to do more too?

'cause it's, we're, we're in a faith tradition that often we should be doing the most. It's never enough at all times. Yeah. If you do more of us than the spirit, than you were given the, the, the thing that you are instructed. Yeah. Right. We often think too much about the not doing enough, the less part, but also we're not supposed to do more than what is asked of us.

And that's something that I've learned on Sunday, on Monday through, through the light and through approaching my job with a little bit of the spirit as, as I listen. That's really cool, Cole. Wow. Thanks for sharing that. I often wonder if my producer, I remember some stuff, but I wonder 'cause we've been through a couple producers and I That is funny.

I actually had that question. God is so good because a couple of weeks ago I was like, I wonder if Cole ever learns anything or if it's affected him in any way. Mm-hmm. Or if he's just like, it's just a paycheck every week. That is so interesting. 'cause I don't know how I'd be, I'd be like, just edit this and publish it.

Do now she's crazy. Yeah. I don't know. That's really cool. Wow. Thanks Cole. That's awesome. Uh, yeah, I love this idea of light and truth and that it represents Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. And especially. In the ways that you guys have just applied that to your lives. So thank you so much. Wow. With all that we've learned, and that's been a lot.

As we said, it's one of the biggest sections in the doctrine and governance, but not in verses. One of the things that's really interesting is the Lord then commands us to do one more thing in this section, and it applies to everyone, not just married people with kids. We're gonna show you what we mean in the next segment.

Segment 6

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So you probably guessed by our discussion and if not, it's gonna come out right now. So here's my question for you two, because each of three of us are in different phases of life and home occupancy. So [01:08:00] I want you to describe for the listeners what is your home situation like right now. I am currently in my wife's library slash craft room where we are recording this.

Um, I own a house in Utah with my wife of, um, we got married in 2022, so this is three, a little over three years by the time this podcast is aired. And we are here with our son who just had his second birthday. Yay. Awesome. And a dog that we may or may not have this dog for long term because it's the worst dog that's ever been dogged.

But aw, my family also includes a dog, and I would be remiss to, uh, not include that. Cole had to let that one, couldn't let that one slide. Um, that makes me laugh. Sorry. The dog is crazy. Sometimes when we record it's like jumping all over the place. I love that so much. Yeah. I usually turn my zoom little window off when I'm working from home and recording these things because a 2-year-old and a dog would, I think would detract from the spirit of the episode when other people are trying to record, oh, I think God loves chaos.

That's the gift of being the, uh, background producer, right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I love it. What about you, Sarah? Yeah, so, um, I actually am currently sitting in my parents' home. I've been living at home. I am 29 years old, but I'm actually, you've caught me. I'm moving out. I'm, I'm finally getting out. Hey. Yeah.

Did you buy your own place? Not yet, but that is what I'm working toward. And I just found a little place with a friend, a couple friends. Um, but yeah, I had taken a break to sort of save some money at home because financially the world right now is crazy. Yeah. Oh, it's true. It's crazy. But um, you know, so blessed to have a little bit of extra space to stay in my parents and chaotic when you're trying to find your own spot and move, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's so good. Okay. And then I am nearing [01:10:00] towards an empty nester phase of life. So I am living in the house that I moved into when I married my husband. And we've been married for 19 years this summer, which is so crazy. Congratulations. Yeah. I still feel like I just barely got married.

That's what's crazy. Awesome. I'm like, I can't believe I finally found somebody to marry me 19 years. And then, so our youngest, we have two more years till she graduates and that's crazy. Crazy, crazy, crazy. Four girls. I love them all. They're wildly fabulous. So we all have different life situations, but in section 93, the Lord gives some very specific instruction about our houses for all members of the church.

So let's look at this. It's verses 43, 44 and 50. Okay, we're gonna highlight information about the houses. So Cole, will you read 43? Sarah? 44. And I will read verse 50. Yes. And now a commandment I give unto you. If you'll be delivered, you shall set and order your own house for there are many things that are not right in your house.

Verily I say unto you, my servant Sidney riggin. That in some things that in some things he has not kept the commandments concerning his children. Therefore, first set in order thy house. Verse 50, my servant Newell Kay Whitney, also a bishop of my church hath need to be chastened and set in order his family and see that they are more diligent and concerned at home and pray always, or they shall be removed out of their place.

Okay, so you read that. Tell me how does this commandment apply to each one of us in our specific situations? Okay, so, and in verse 49 that we skipped over, there's a really key little part, and this shows up in the doctrine covenants a couple times, like at, at least in section 92 1 before this as well, where just in case we think that this is just Sydney Whitney.

Yeah. Names Uhhuh Uhhuh. Oh, their houses are not in order, but I, we're fine. I'm sure I'm fine. The Lord one pulled my name into the doctrine covenants and call me out. It actually, it [01:12:00] specifically says what I say until one. I say until all like, yes. God is giving this advice to very specific people and throughout the doctrine covenants there are very, like, there are names dropped over and over, but that does not mean that we cannot learn something from it.

I like that. I'm so glad you pointed that out. Get your eternal truth, color if you have one this year and highlight it, because that is true what I say unto one, I say unto all. Yeah. That's the theme of doctrine. Covenants, the subheader, I should say. Yeah, totally. Very good. Okay, so what's he saying to all, I guess I, the verse I read, um, it's 44, it said.

In some things. He had not kept the commandments like that comes to mind. I'm like, oh, there's definite I'm not. I am some things. Right. The That is such a great Yeah. Distinguisher because Oh yeah. I think that all of us like those of us trying and striving every day to, to follow the, keep the commandments, obey his voice, all those things that were listed in verse one.

Right. I'm still, uh, some things person, like there are some things, and I guess a little bit of anxiety comes to my mind when I read that or think that because dang, I am a perfectionist. I'm trying to get my house in order, meaning my house. I am an individual unit more than both you and Cole, Tammy. And so what is it that I can get in order to not be, to not be in some the, some things camp.

Right. Oh, I like that. I love that you just pointed that out in some things. You have not kept the commandments. Hmm. That's a lot to think about. Yeah. I always kinda hoped, I always took solace because it took me, I was 29 or 30 years old whenever I got married and started having a, like a, a traditional, proper Mormon house that I could think about.

Mm-hmm. And so for 29 years of my life, I thought I will worry about getting things in order when I have a house, because anytime the scriptures bring up order, I either ruffle up a little bit or I try to ignore it. Or because, um, Sarah, if Sarah is a type A, I'm a very type B where I would, I would [01:14:00] rather have there be a little bit more loosey goose with the, the specific order of things.

And so any scripture that calls out for specific order is sometimes hard for me. Right. Whenever you're reading, preach my gospel and it lists the Christlike attributes, one of them is obedience. And that's the one that I would prefer to, like, there's, you know, we always have, we all have something. Right.

And so for me, just to have a reminder that God's house is also a house of order as well, that all of these things contribute and come together where even if I think I'm doing okay in praying, always right, that's another thing that in these verses it, you know, one of 'em says, you, you need to pray more. I do a pretty good job praying more, but I could, I could do a lot better at mm-hmm.

Keeping things in order and having a, a real orderly, obedient way to my life. So for both of you, if you were in my situation and you have been, both of you actually have been, what would you say like you would have told yourself to set in order at this time of your life? Wow, that's good. I need this advice.

I know, sorry. I think for me what stood out is in verse 50, and this might've been the theme of me throughout my whole experience being single, see that they are more diligent and concerned. Hmm. And. I, I think for me that was what I tried to do as a single gal, was to just be more diligent and concerned about the things that mattered.

And it was so easy for me to get caught up in the idea that, oh, maybe it doesn't really matter. I mean, I did go down that rabbit hole where I'm praying, I'm reading my scriptures, I'm going to church, I'm doing all the things, and I was getting frustrated that God wasn't hearing and answering my prayers.

I remember, I'm just gonna share a personal story. I wasn't planning on this, but it's one of my favorite student stories. So I'm teaching seminary, it's the, and it was the beginning of a school year. And we do an assembly for the first two days. And we finally got to the last period of the day. And it was [01:16:00] always the hardest one because it was the one where boys who played sports took seminary so they could leave and not have a math class to make up.

They could just leave seminary. Yeah. And so it was a rowdy bunch of boys, and one in particular was the most rowdy. And this kid, he had a chip on his shoulder. He was super angry. He was kind of known as the Dennis Rodman of the school because he was so good at sports. Like he was all American schools had already tried to recruit him in fresh his freshman year.

And he had an edge to him. 'cause he did dress kind of crazy. Like he'd wear fur coats and lipstick to school. And he was funny. Like the The Dennis Robin. Dennis Robin. All right. That's so cool. So every year when he would come to seminary, it was always someone's year to have him in class. Who's gonna have this kid this year?

So now it's his senior year and I knew it was my turn. So he's on my role. And the summer before senior year started, he got in a car accident driving home from Lake Powell and he broke his femur and it's done like he'll never be able to play sports again. Really, no matter how much therapy or or physical therapy he does, it's pretty, it's over and he knows that.

And so now he's just, dreams are crushed. He's mad at God, all the things. So then we go to the assembly. It's the last one of the day, he's still trying to play sports. And the seminary principal gets up and he starts to bear his testimony. And the seminary principal at the very end says, Jesus Christ is coming.

And the spirit was so strong and this boy yelled from the back. Bull crap. Bulls. That is not true. And it just like everyone turned to look at him and he yelled at the principal and he was like, none of this is true. None of this is right. And the principal had had a relationship with him because he had been a football coach for years.

And he said, well, tell me why you're upset. And this is in front of like 150 students. And this kid says, I'll tell you why. Because, and, and my heart is racing right? And the spirit says to me, you need to answer his question. And I'm like, I'm not saying [01:18:00] anything 'cause I don't even know him that well. And he said, you tell me why.

When we do everything that God asks us to do, we read our scriptures, we say our prayers, we go to church, and then our prayers don't get answered. And the principal was trying to answer the question, and my heart is racing. And again, the spirit says, you're supposed to answer this question. And I go, I am not answering this question.

I have nothing to say to this kid. And so they kept going back and forth, fighting in front of all the students. And finally the spirit one last time says, you need to answer this question. And so I just raised my hand and I said, can I answer this question? And the principal looked at me like, good luck, sister.

Like, I don't know what you're gonna say. And I said to this, I turned to this boy. And I said, I totally get how you feel. And he says to me, in the most horrific mean tone, you don't get anything. Don't tell me. You get what I feel. You don't know me. I mean, it was just that total line of thinking. Mm-hmm. And I said, I'll tell you this.

And these kids did not know me very well. I said, I am 30 years old. And you could hear them go. No one knew my age at that point. I said, I am 30 years old and I've never been married. And I pray every night to get married and have kids, and everyone's staring at me and I'm, I'm trying not to cry. And then I, the spirit taught me something.

'cause I did not know what I was gonna say. I'm like, heavenly Father, I have no idea where this is going. And then this happened and I said, I'm telling you right now, I have four years, read my scriptures, said my prayers, paid my tithing, go to church, attend the temple. I've done all the things and I'm telling you right now.

And he looks at me and I said, I've been doing all those things, not so that I can get what I want, but it's so that I can want what I get. Mm. That's why we do them. And I didn't know, I knew that, like I said that and then I started sobbing. 'cause I'm like, I guess I'll be singing for a while. Like, I guess I'm not off the hook.

I guess I gotta keep doing all those things. And so verse five 50 reminds me of that. See that they are more [01:20:00] diligent and concerned and I had to just stay diligent and be concerned about the things that mattered. And it. I just think that's how God works with us. At least that's how he was working with me at that time in my life and continues to be that way.

Because when things, now I'm married with kids, I still have to be diligent and concerned. And I'm reminded of that all the time. Like, all right, let's get back on track. So, oh, thank you. There you go. That was a long story. That was a long answer to my, your question. It was beautiful. Well, thank you. Yeah. And, and so and so we know through just life experience that being perfect doesn't qualify us necessarily for any blessings.

And you know what? Being imperfect doesn't disqualify us for it either, because in the next verse, amen. In verse 51, right? Sidney Riggin just got told. You need to set your house in order and you need to get better. And now let my certain Sidney riggin go on his journey, may haste proclaim the acceptable year of the girl.

You're called on a mission, right? You are an imperfect man and go do this thing that I need you to do. Yep. That's so good, Cole. I like that. Oh my gosh, isn't this so cool? What I say into one, I say and to all, wow. We felt that with those verses you guys. Thanks. That's the end of our discussion. That was awesome.

Awesome. For a section packed. We really did, we we got as much out of that as we could. That was so cool. So fun. Okay. Gather your thoughts and tell me what's an eternal truth that you learned or you were reminded of when we discussed section 93. 'cause there's a lot in this section. Totally. Sarah, you saying it, it was always there.

Like the, the doctrine and all these laws and everything have always been there and it's just us slowly figuring it out and it's all, it's, there's always gonna be something more for us to find, going back to that grace for grace question and mm-hmm. Um. God, God is not radically changing the laws of the universe.

Anytime someone learns something new, we're just now discovering these things [01:22:00] that he has always had planned for us. That was, I liked that. Thanks. That was a, that was a good point. Um, I, I, uh, I was gonna say, I just feel mind blown about this grace, for grace and grace to grace, understanding that we will be, whatever we put out, the Lord will give us back.

That's grace. For grace. And then we will be given grace to grace from the grace of God of Jesus Christ, who is grace. I just think that's a beautiful reminder. That was a fun discussion. Mm-hmm. That's for sure. One of my eternal truths. I'm so glad you asked that question. For everyone who's ever in a gospel doctrine class, ask questions because that is when the spirit enters the room, and I love that you taught me that.

So thank you. Thank you. And then Cole loved that you made verse one equation. I'd never considered that. It built upon each thing. Um, I will forever read that verse that way. That was so cool how you set that up. I'm glad you have a math brain. And Tammy, you always, Tammy is so good when she does this podcast.

She, she is a seminary teacher through and through and she acknowledges and validates her guests so well. So she always has. That's true. A takeaway for everyone. And Tammy, my takeaway from you was that last story that you just told. It was, thank you. Beautiful. And in, yeah, in six years of listening to this podcast, I feel like I still learn something new about Tammy and, and can still just feel the spirit.

Um, it was wonderful. Thanks. Be diligent and concerned. That will be my new mantra. I love it. Make a final lettering and put it on a wall in your house, Sarah, in your new apartment, your new home. You have your friends. Perfect, diligent, concerned. Thank you. Oh, thanks so much you two. This was a fun discussion.

Okay. And make sure everybody listening, go check out out of the best books. 'cause I think you're going to love these two as the interview authors. What a cool. Cool podcast you guys. Good job. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks friends. Thank you. Well, what Eternal Truth did you learn? Go join our group on Facebook or follow us [01:24:00] on Instagram to share what you've learned from my friends Cole and Sarah, 'cause that was such a fun discussion.

Wow. Section 93 is packed. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we're gonna post a question from this discussion. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday, and go there anyway, because it's where we're gonna have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study group participants. Were Cole Wissinger and Sarah Collins, and you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole, Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember that you are God's favorite.