The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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When I was a newly hired seminary teacher, I went back home to Missouri for a quick summer vacation and I took a friend with me and I thought, how cool would it be to visit Liberty Jail? So we went to do a little tour, and now listen, I'm never gonna forget that experience because in that tour there was an older missionary couple and it was just my friend and I, and there we were sitting inside of Liberty Jail and this sweet couple said to us, this is Joseph's prison temple.

And here his faith was proved sufficient. Unquote, that hit me. The spirit witnessed to me that day that where I was sitting in this prison temple was really where Joseph Smith was and the experiences he had will change my life forever. And I made a decision. I've gotta find out what happened in these chapters.

Well, these chapters are the topic of this week's discussion of doctrine and covenant sections 121 through 123, and we're going to find out where the term prison temple came from. Who else used that same term and what happened in this horrific and holy place. Welcome to the Sunday, on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend, Kelsey Connor from Pleasant Grove, Utah. Hi, Kelsey. It's good to meet you.

Now, another awesome thing and my favorite thing about the study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, but sometimes it's just one. And today I have one friend and this friend I have wanted on the podcast for a while, and I'm so grateful that the [00:02:00] spirit was like, it's time. And so I reached out to doctor and professor JB Haws.

Hello, jb. Hi, Tammy. It's very, very good to be with you. Yay. Okay. JB is a professor at BYU, but before I was a professor. We're gonna give you some humble roots here. Um, we taught seminary. We were in the same, we, I think we were hired at the same time in the seminary system, and then we taught seminary for years together until we parted and went our ways.

But JB tell our audience a little bit about you. That's not humble roots, Tammy. That's my claim to fame is, uh, knowing you, uh, being able to claim you as a colleague and an associate. Okay. I just have to say this though. The day we got hired is one of my favorite memories because I'm pretty sure I remember you wearing cowboy boots.

Oh, I don't, I don't remember that. Do you own a pair? I'm not a I'm not a cowboy boot wearer very often, so I don't know. That was me. Maybe it was someone else. I thought it was you. Like he's got he's got on boots. Yeah. I should though. I for, to, to, yeah. To, to honor my roots. I should have been wearing boots, but I don't know if that was me, so.

Oh yeah. Maybe not. All right, well, where are you from? Tell everyone about you. Oh, thank you for opening that, uh, that door so I can just walk right in it and say that I'm from Hooper, Utah, where I, uh, hoop. Yep. It's uh, uh, west of Roy, west of Ogden, a beautiful little community, a beachfront community on the shores of the Great Salt Lake.

Uh, and that's all, all, all good things. So many good things in my life have come because, uh, I can claim Hooper, Utah as my roots, so I love that place. What high school did you go to? At the time I was living there, um, kids in Hooper went to Roy High School, gold Royals. I still am very, very loyal to Roy High.

I taught there, I taught seminary there on two different occasions. So I, I have, uh, black and gold running through my veins. And then they built Fremont High School, uh, in Plain City. And, and the kids from Hooper went to Fremont. And that was miraculous because that's how I met my wife when, uh, when uh, I was on my mission and they built Fremont High School and she came from Weber High.

My sister came from Roy High to be part of the [00:04:00] first graduating class, and they became fast friends. And a year and a half later, uh, my sister introduced me to Laura. And so I'm so grateful for Fremont High. And now absolutely. One more, one more evolution in, in the story. Now there's a new high school, uh, called Westfield High School.

Um mm-hmm. So the area just keeps growing out there. And so now kids in Hope would go to Westfield. That is, so how is that cool? Have we made this connection? 'cause I love it so much. You went to Roy High, do you remember? They took state. Their big claim to fame was the year they took state. The football team was so awesome and my uncle was the football coach.

Did we talk about this at Roy High? Oh, that's your uncle? That's my uncle. I don't know if Isn't that cool? We did. I don't know if we did talk about that. He wasn't coaching high football when I was there, but he was. He was still teaching. But uh Wow, that's remarkable. I know now. Okay. Well yeah. So many good Roy High connections.

That's fantastic. I've done some solid time in Roy. I've probably toilet papered a house or two. Maybe yours. I don't know. We were a little bit wild back in the eighties, so Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Oh, that's cool. You went to Roy High. Oh, I love, I love Roy High. That's my neck of the woods, so That's right. Oh my gosh.

Okay. Well listen, for those of you listening, if you wanna know more about my guest and you're gonna wanna check out his bio, because when he said it was a miracle that he met his wife, it really is 'cause she's. Beautiful. I'm just kidding you. You're here. No you're not. That really is true. No, this is miraculous.

Beautiful black, curly hair. It is. I remember meeting her the first time going your hair. Yeah. Anyway, you're gonna wanna check it out. So go check out our show notes. You're gonna find those at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. So everyone grab your scriptures and let's dig into doctrine and covenants.

Sections 121, 122, and 123. Alright, JB tell me what did the Holy Ghost teach you this time as you read the, and prepared for these sections? Thanks for that invitation to think about that, Tammy. So, yeah, I mean, two great things about this podcast talking with you and these sections. Uh, I, I was thrilled to find out this is what we're gonna be talking about.

Um, so much good stuff. But I think the thing that's, that's kind of floating to the top, um, this time through it, it's, [00:06:00] it's actually three verses and two in 1 21 and one and 1 22 that I think are a little bit connected. And, uh, part of why, I guess what struck me about this is that. You can imagine Joseph Smith thinking of this and, and thinking, well, I'm, I'm not quite sure this is true.

So verse nine of 1 21, thy friends do stand by thee and they shall hail thee again, with warm hearts and friendly hands. Thou are not yet as job thy friends do not contend against thee. Neither charge thee with transgression as they did job. And Joseph Smith, you can imagine him thinking, well, actually my friends, some have abandoned me, some have betrayed me.

Yeah. Um, part of the reason that I'm here in this Liberty jail is because of of friends who did not stand by me. I wonder if this, these verses or this thought, um, pulled Joseph up short and, and helped him to realize maybe some of your friends have abandoned you, but the vast majority haven't. And sometimes, uh, in these dark moments, um, things that, that are tough and sl so large that, that they go all out of proportion and we might forget.

And I, I imagine part of why this was sweet to Joseph Smith was re being reminded that thousands of your friends are still with you and that this probably reflects even that he had just gotten letters from his friends and his wife who were still standing by him. And I love this reminder that, uh, in, in dark times to, to not let the problems loom so large that they block out the reality of good things that are happening.

And in that same friend vein, I, I was just struck by section 1 22 verse three. And thy people shall never be turned against the, by the testimony of traitors. And I, I, I am so honored and grateful that to count ourselves in that number and in that prophecy, I mean, that we're part of that group that, uh, still has, has not been turned, uh, against Joseph Smith because the testimony traders we're standing with him, [00:08:00] we're part of, of that group of friends.

And to hear those words and to think of those words, to have those words, um, um, just sort of work on his heart, I, I, I find that really inspiring and a reminder to me to, uh, in, in times they're tough to remember, um, all the good things around and all the people who are still standing by us. I'm so grateful you shared those with us.

And when you read verse three, the first thing immediately that came to my mind was, am I his friend? Yeah. And I wrote that in my scriptures. I wrote me with an exclamation point, am I his friend? What a great reminder to all of us to be a friend of Joseph Smith. Yeah, I like that connection so much. And when you brought up the verses in nine and 10.

It kind of reminded me, and you know this when your kids are younger, but my, I have daughters, all daughters and I can think of them so often when they have a, a fight with a friend in their world, everybody hates them. Nobody likes me. And I was like, nobody, well just one friend. But it, it just shows the human side of the mind when you, like you said, when it's just looming over you that everything, when one person doesn't like you, you feel like no one does.

And I like seeing that Joseph is real right here in this moment. Like he probably was like, what is going on? I'm here because people sold me out. Yeah. What a great reminder from our heavenly father. Like, just relax and, and don't we love verse 10. I think that's when I gained a testimony of the story of job because I used to think it was just maybe a nice little story in the Old Testament and then now here's heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, using him as the example.

And that was where I gained a testimony of job. So thank you for sharing those verses and especially for having us question and my Joseph's friend. What a great thing for us to think about as we go through these sections today. So. Nice. Thanks jb. Mm-hmm. That was awesome. Okay. Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

Well, yeah, so what we'll do is in the next segment we are gonna talk about the history behind these sections. And like JB kind of said some friends left him and kind of gave him up. And so we're gonna get the time, [00:10:00] the place, and the circumstances surrounding these three sections, and we'll do that next.

Segment 2

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So, JB as a scholar and a historian of church history and doctrine, which I think is the best job title ever, will you please just tell us a little bit about the background leading up to Liberty Jail, what happened to get them there and what's going on? Great. I think probably all of us as we read the doctrine, cos we notice there's a, a pretty significant time and place jump between Section one 20 and, and 1 21.

And we're moving from the summer of 1838 in Far West Missouri, section one 20 to, uh, the spring of 1839. And, and now in Liberty Jail and Thoses were some tough months, uh, as, as trying a time as dark a time as Joseph Smith and the Saints had yet faced. And the thing that happens in those intervening months is that by the end of the summer of 1838, in the fall of 1839, the.

The tension in Missouri had, had just ramped up to, uh, a, a breaking point between Latter Saints and their neighbors, and so many factors that, that were in involved here. Um, religious differences, cultural differences, um, questions over property. Um, all of this was, was in the mix. Um, and the sort of the recriminations that were going back and forth, the, the retributions, the sort of cycle of, of violence and what Larry Saints thought might be self-defense, but then others felt like was were going overboard.

Um, that they were being vigilantes, that they were, that they were, um, themselves become going on the offensive. All of this is just bringing the, the climate to a fever pitch. The state militias are getting involved. Mm-hmm. So they're, they're calling together militia groups and we're talking about Latter Saints and their neighbors living over [00:12:00] several counties in northern Missouri.

Um, and things just fall apart. Uh, some. On, on both sides, sort of retaliating, burning property, burning homes, um, confiscating property, taking prisoners, trying to rescue prisoners. And, uh, that, that for sure the lowest, the most tragic, uh, event of all of this happens at the very end of October of 1838. And that's the Hans Mill massacre.

Mm-hmm. Um, when, uh, members of a militia group, certainly not on a militia action, but members of a militia group that are, um, taking matters into their own hands and, and feeling like they need to, um, give the saints a message, uh, attack this small settlement of Hans Mill, maybe 30 families, um, shoot at women and children, then surround the, uh, blacksmith shop and, um.

Kill brutally, kill, um, 17 men and boys. Um, and, and this becomes, I think the, the, the point that just realizes that everyone realizes how, um, how horrific the, the violence can be and, and might continue to be as all of latter Cincinnati are gathering in Far West. And they're facing an extermination order that Governor Boggs had issued as he's hearing reports of, of all this violence, um, in vigilante action.

Um, a lot of these reports were exaggerated. Some of them were affidavit based on affidavits that came from Latter Saints, disaffected, latter Saints. So he issued this order that the, the Saints should be driven from the state. In Far West, a Latterday Saint Militia leader, Colonel George Hinkle had, um, made an agreement with, um, the militia General Samuel Lucas, that, uh, he would have, he would bring Joseph Smith and other leaders in, uh, and this is where, you know, there was a dispute on how what really happened.

Joseph Smith and his associates always felt like they were betrayed, that they came in feeling like that they were under [00:14:00] the flag of truce, and that they were just coming in for talks. Um, and, and, uh, George Hinkle claimed that he, Joseph Smith knew what was happening, so that this is definitely difference of opinion.

And, and I think, uh, mm-hmm that this was always, always wrinkled. The Latter Saints, that they felt like Joseph Smith had been betrayed into the hands of an enemy. And so then he was, when they came in for what, um, you know, Joseph Smith thought was maybe the flag of truce. They were re he, he and his fellow latter Saint leaders were arrested.

Um, Samuel Lucas tried to have them. Um, killed, executed, uh, on the basis of kind of a, a, a sham court martial. This is the famous story where Alexander Donovan, uh, remarkable man of integrity stood up and, and refused to carry out the order of his superior officer and even warned a superior officer that if he, if he had, if he moved forward with the execution, that that Alexander Donovan would hold him responsible before God and an earthly tribunal.

Was he a member of the church? Alexander Donovan? He was. Tell us a little bit. He was not. Tell us about him. Yeah. He, he, he was not, he was a, a, a Missouri resident, um, an attorney, uh, uh, a remarkable man of courage who, you know, I think stands out as a profile of courage and who could just sense the injustice involved here.

Um, and would, would not allow Samuel Lucas to carry out a, a really nefarious plot and stood up to him. And he, and then Alexander Donovan also does get involved in the, the, some of the legal defense of the church leaders. But I think someone who stands out as a hero for integrity, for standing up for what is right and, and sensing that, that this was a terrible miscarriage of justice.

And it, and it seems to have been the thing that, that, um, prevented Joseph and his, uh, fellow church leaders from being executed. Oh, absolutely. Do we know what happened to him? Alexander Donovan? Yeah, he went on to have a distinguished career, um, in, in local politics. He, there's a statue to him, um, in Richmond, Missouri.

So I think he continued to be a, [00:16:00] um, an elected official and, uh, you know, I think always held in the, the memory of the Saints. So I think he a really respected citizen of, um, of that area. That's awesome. Yeah. And, and one of my colleagues here at BYU, Alex Ba, he, he is such a great scholar of all the things, Missouri, and he's written a number of really nice pieces about Alexander Donovan worth checking out.

Um, oh, I will. So Alex ba uh, B-A-U-G-H-A great scholar. Fantastic. Fantastic. But, but I think it's, we shouldn't move too quickly past this because, and, and sometimes as we tell this story, and I'm guilty of this too, is that, you know, we kind of know the end from the beginning. So we, we tell the story of, again, or Donovan's Donovan's heroic refusal.

But we might forget that there were these hours where Joseph and his associates weren't quite sure what their fate was gonna be in the morning. Yeah. And where we think about their wives, their children, you know, their mothers and fathers, their, their, their neighbors and close friends who weren't quite sure what was going to happen the next morning.

And this is the thing that's just striking me, is that as we think about this history, we've got to be so careful not to, because we know the end of the story, right. Not to project that on these characters and to recognize how much uncertainty, how much despair, how much, um, feeling of, uh, this could be the end that would've just been weighing on all of them.

Mm-hmm. And I'm so, I'm so glad you brought that up, JB because I think we do the same with the Savior's life. Especially when we get to his final hours. At least. I like when you're saying this, I'm reminded, I'm like, I did that and here's my experience. I went to Israel a couple of years ago and I remember before going, I had a friend who, she has done several tours there with a tour company and I said, do you have any advice for me before I go to Israel?

And she said. Pay attention to where you have [00:18:00] your moment. And I was like, what do you mean? And she goes, well, everybody has a moment at different places. You might not have your moment at the tomb like you think you're going to, you might, I mean, it's a wonderful place to visit, but that might not be where you have your moment.

So just everyone has it in different place. And I just remember going, oh, that's interesting. 'cause I'm certain it'll be at the tomb. So we went to Israel and I, and we did the walk and I did the tomb and it was a wonderful experience. But I didn't have like this, I don't know the moment she was talking about, but I'll tell you where I had it.

And it's what you're talking about right now. It was in the jail in Caiaphas house, which is in a dungeon underground. Hmm. And I didn't realize that from point for at different points in the Savior's experience, they put him in here where he just sat and waited until he got to go and see, go onto the next part of this journey for him.

And, and I remember sitting in there thinking he just sat here in the middle of the night for an hour or two. Did he know the end? We know the end, but I just thought, I wonder if he just got done going through the whole experience in Gethsemane and now he's in this tomb. Is this where he unpacked everything?

Is this where he was like, what just happened in there? What's going on? Was that the moment where the father came to him and said, here's how it's gonna play out? I, I don't know, but I, that's where I had my moment because that was where the moment was when the savior became human to me, where I thought, maybe this is where he's processing everything that just happened, and that's about to happen.

And I loved that because I think that was what I had in Liberty Jail. Ooh, wow. Here's this moment. Like we just kind of forget to soak that in and not just rush through this, these three chapters, they're so heartfelt with their wording. But I'm grateful you reminded us to, let's sit with this for a minute and think about all the players involved and the family members and the children.

Yeah, I just, it's, it's, I'm grateful that you brought that up, so thank you. Oh yeah. I think you've never thought of the things that you've mentioned before. Your experience Holyland, it's a good [00:20:00] reminder. History to dislike. It's, whew. Okay. Wow. All right, continue, keep going. So, yeah, so well said. And, and I think that that in a lot of ways characterizes the liberty deal story, the uncertainty of what's going to happen.

So after, after this arrest and after, uh, the, the, the foiled, EE execution plans, um, Josephine's Associates are taken to a number of places for, uh, different, different trials, different hearings. They're, they're charged with treason for. For, um, rebelling against the state and, and, uh, fighting against the state of Missouri.

And so this is the, this is the main charge that they're, they're, um, facing in court trials. So they go to Jackson County, um, then they're taken back up to, uh, Richmond, and it's in their, uh, uh, the unfinished, well, the, the holding spot where an unfinished building, where they were held at Richmond. The, the, the famous story that Party p Pratt retails when they were chained together about Joseph Smith Rebuking the Guard.

So that's kind of all happening in, in these, these weeks when they're, when they're having their court appearances. And then the, the court decides that there is enough evidence to hold them over for a spring trial. Um, and so they're gonna face trial in the spring, and that's why they're spending the winter in Liberty Jail awaiting that trial.

Um, treason is a, a non bailable offense. So for that reason, they, they couldn't be released on bail. Um, and so they're, they're gonna spend the next few months in jail. Waiting for an, an upcoming court date. And so now when you say they spent the winter there, when did they enter? Just so people know? Yeah, yeah.

Good. So they enter the, the 1st of December in 1838. Wow. Yeah. And, and then they're going to be moved in April to appear in court and then to, to change of venue. And it's in that change of venue when they're going to escape. And very likely with the assistance of, of, and the complicity of, of some of their jailers who recognized that the, that the, the, the, the tide of public opinion had turned against them.

That the, the, the charges weren't great. And so it just seemed to [00:22:00] be a kind of a, a, a quasi official decision to let them go. Um, not everyone was happy about that, but it, it seemed like that, that they had the com very likely had the complicity of at least some of the jailers to, to let them go and to leave the state.

But so they're gonna span Decem December to April. Yeah. I mean, that's something to think about Christmas. Yeah, right? Yeah. Like they didn't get to go home for Christmas. Yeah, that's right. So I love it. Going back to what you said, like let's not just go past this so fast. Yeah. But let's think about what's really going on.

No. Yeah, that's right. No, dad, for the holidays, for all of these men. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, and I, I, I think you've, I think you've identified what, what makes it as tough as anything, and so early on in, in Liberty jail, while the Saints are still, uh, you know, fairly close. So, so that all the while the leaders who are not in jail and, and of course they're trying to stay in close communication with Joseph Smith, but they're trying to figure out what do we do about this extermination order, the governor's order that we have to leave the state.

And so as they're processing that, they, in the middle of winter, they make the decision to start this migration of eight to 10,000 Lattery Saints who are going to leave Missouri and go about 200 miles across the state. They have found, uh, welcoming arms in Quincy, Illinois. And, and it's great to pay tribute to the people of Quincy at the time who recognized the, the terrible injustice that was being done.

And I think their hearts were moved and opened. And so they, they provided. Uh, shelter and food and jobs for the latter of saints. But so most of the Latter Saints who are are staying with the church are now gonna be over the course of, of those winter months, be moving across the state. So early on when Joseph and the others are in Liberty Jail, um, including his brother, Hiram and others.

Mm-hmm. Uh, for others initially in the Sidney, Rigg and Lee. So it ends up being five in, in, in the group. Uh, they, they're able to have visitors come. Um, we know that Emma came, um, we know that, uh, Mary Philly Smith came, um, brought a brand new baby Joseph F. Smith to meet Hiram. And so they would have times when they'd be able to [00:24:00] come out of the, the basement dungeon and, um, and receive visitors.

There even were times that they were taken out of the jail and allowed to, um, walk around the town with, with accompanied by a jailer. But I think by the time these letters are written, um, in March. Now most of the saints are gone. Emma has left the state. She's now a couple hundred miles away. She left probably in February.

So, so now it's been over a month and the situation has changed and I think they're feeling much lonelier. Mm-hmm. Far fewer visitors, um, worried about this, all of their, their friends and family who are trying to make a new life and trying to make it across the state in, in, you know, terrible conditions, freezing winter.

And so, yeah, by the time these letters are written near the end of March, I mean, they've been in this jail for three and a half months and are facing the, the looming prospects of a, of a court date and the, all the uncertainty that comes with that. And so I think that helps us to think about the time, the distance from loved ones, the situation.

Yeah. All of that weighing in on them. Wow. When I go to these sections, and from everything you said, you talked about these letters, I was surprised to learn that sections 1 21, 1 22, and 1 23 are excerpts from much longer letters. Yeah. Like 12 page long letters. Right, right. Yeah. Which, when you just said how, how lonely they must be, you can tell by just length of letters.

Yeah. What, I've never written a 12 page letter. That's like a paper in college that you have to do so. Right. You can just see that we've, and, and I don't, I have not read anything. In fact, the only thing I have read is no one knows why they specifically chose these excerpts. Other than they're phenomenal and we love them.

Yeah. And so the idea that they're coming from much longer letters, but these smaller portions have been chosen for us. And so I'm, I'm so looking forward to discussing these excerpts with you and finding out why they chose these and what they [00:26:00] have to do with us. So now that we know the history and now that we've taken the time to just absorb that, which I'm so grateful you challenge us to do that and not gloss over the history, we're going to then go into this whole concept of what these verses are and what they mean to us, and this idea of a temple prison.

And that's how I started. And I just wanted to give a little background about this because. The missionary couple who gave the tour, I thought they came up with that term on their own. I'm like, these guys are brilliant. Where'd they come up with this prison temple? I love it. I wrote in my scriptures, and then I came to learn that it's actually a coined phrase from our, uh, church historian and a member of the Quorum of the 70.

His name's BH Roberts from a long time ago. Right. And then Elder Nele Maxwell used it in one of his talks. And then on September 7th, 2008, elder Holland used this term in a talk that he gave to BYU students called Lessons From Liberty. Now, right. This talk I think is so beautiful and we just, we haven't used it before in discussing these sections, so I thought we've got to use them this time.

And here I have an audio bite, and this is what Elder Holland wants us to gain from these excerpts that we're gonna study today. But tonight's message is that when you have to. You can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in any situation you are in. Indeed, let me say that even a little stronger.

You can have sacred, revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in the most miserable experiences of your life, in the worst settings, while enduring the most painful injustices, when facing the most insurmountable odds and opposition you have ever faced. So what we're gonna do is we're going to take the most miserable experiences of your life, and we're going to apply these three sections [00:28:00] to those experiences.

And maybe you're in it right now, and I hope that the words we study today are going to help you. And so we will dive into section 1 21 in the next segment.

Segment 3

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So I want you to think about, I asked you to think about your most miserable experience. I kind of want you just to think, I wish we were all together because I would ask you to share with me, I know it might be too public, but I wish we could sit together because I would say, share with me your most trying time of life.

Like when was it, what happened? I wanna know all the details. Maybe you have more than one. I have one I'm gonna share later today, but maybe you're in the middle of it too. And so I just want you to kind of be thinking about a time in your life that was just so difficult. So trying. JB do you have one?

You don't have to share it with me, but do you have one? Yeah. When you asked that question, that was a really good question. I, I did have a couple of things come to mind. Yeah, I did. Looking back now on hindsight, and knowing what you know about these sections, are they helpful? Oh yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. These sections, these sections are go-to sections for me, uh, all the time.

Oh, yes. Oh, I like that. You said they're go-to for you all the time. Why? Well, I, I think that they're so relatable. Uh, you know, they, they, they strike a human chord because probably all of us have had these feelings of. Of, of despair and, um, wondering what's next, wondering if there's any hope for us to get out of this situation.

Yeah. And, and then so many of the, so much of the, uh, the council that comes, so much of the light that comes, I think, just, just resonates with us. It just sort of soothes us and I, I, because I think it just lands on a place that, um, can only be heaven sent. I mean, it can only be the way that we can get this is from heaven.

I, I just feel that so Well Oh, I agree with you. Absolutely. From [00:30:00] heaven, heaven sent. Yeah. Well, let's take the time that we all have, whether it's past or whether you're in it, and we're gonna turn to Doctrine and Covenant section 121, and we're just gonna read verses one through six. And so here's what we're going to do as we read these verses.

I love how Elder Holland called these verses, he says. It's a painful personal cry, a cry from the heart, a spiritual loneliness we may all have occasion to feel at some time in our lives. So he's, I love how Elder Holland's making these verses real for us. So as we read these verses together, I want you guys to grab something to mark your scriptures with and underline any phrases or words that stand out to you that feel like a personal cry from Joseph Smith's heart.

And then we're gonna discuss those. Okay. JB, great. So underline or mark any phrases or words that seem like a personal cry and JB we'll each take a turn reading a verse, and we'll go one through six. So you go first then me, oh god. Where art thou And where is the pavilion that covers thy hiding place?

How long shall thy hand be stayed and thy aye, thy pure, I behold from the eternal heavens, the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants and thy ear be penetrated with their cries. Yay. Oh Lord. How long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions before thy heart shall be softened toward them and thy bows be moved with compassion toward them.

Oh Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas and of all things that in them are and who control us and subject us the devil. And the dark and benighted dominion of sha stretch forth thy hand. Let thy an eye pierce. Let thy pavilion be taken up. Let thy hiding place no longer be covered. Let thine ear be inclined.

Let thine heart be softened and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us. Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies and in the fury of thine heart with thy sword of vengeance of thy of our wrongs. Remember thy suffering saints Oh our God. And thy servants will rejoice in [00:32:00] thy name forever. Okay.

What did you underline or mark, what are some of the personal and painful cries from the heart in these verses? Uh, I, I think the one that just stands out to me always the is, is the very first one, the where Art thou, um, that is such an honest and deeply moving question. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I don't think if, if, if, of course you can only ask that question if you have, um, assurity that God is there.

Wow. I like that. But you're, he's, he's asking, you know, where are you? I know you're there somewhere, but where are you? Mm-hmm. And why am I not seeing evidence of thy help Or, or what's, what's holding you back? This is a time when I need you. And so I, I just, you know, I, I just relate to that cry where artha.

I think so many people do. Yeah. That's, I think that's our immediate go-to when something wrong happens is where are you and how are you going to fix this? Can you make this better? Yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree. Wow. I, I like in verse two, how he includes all these body parts. How long will your hand be stayed about?

And then he's like, your eye and your ear be penetrated with their cries. He's just, he's calling and, and the fact that he's calling upon personal body parts of, of our God, again, like you said, means he believes in a God. But then to just say, I, I'm calling on everything. Like, help me out. And verse three, how long will they suffer these wrongs?

Mm-hmm. You can just hear he, and like you said earlier, we're into March, so there he's done. He is spent, because from what I understand, Liberty Jail, the conditions in the jail were pretty harsh. It's cold. They don't have beds to sleep on. And if I'm understanding it correctly, they can't really stand up perfectly tall because this, it's barely like six feet.

Is that right? Yeah. That, that's one, I think some, some more recent historical research has probably said that we may have underestimated that, that it, oh, tell me. Was more likely, it was more likely probably about six and a half feet. Okay. So still very, very cramped. Yeah. But, but, uh, [00:34:00] but I think for a long time we thought that it was maybe six feet tall, but more recently I think that historians are thinking it was probably six and a half feet.

So Okay. So they, they probably could have stood up straight, um, but Oh good. But still very, very cramped and, and, and filthy cold. Um, all, all of the miserable things that, uh, that, you know, and as, as Joseph Smith is talking to, describing in the letter, you know, as a, a hell surrounded by demons. Uh, so I mean, they, they definitely felt the, just the, the despair of the place.

Well, I like how you said that when you quoted him a hell surrounded by demons. Yeah, absolutely. And how many men were in the jail at this time with him? Yeah. By this time when he is writing the letter there, uh, there are five of them that are in there. Joseph Hiram, um, Lyman White, uh, Caleb Baldwin, and Alexander McCrae.

Wow. And if for anyone that's been their nose, five men are not fitting in there comfortably at all. Yeah. This is, that would be very, very cramped. Um, circumstances. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Anything else that you marked in those six verses? I, I'm, I'm interested in this line in, in verse four. Um, oh Lord God almighty.

And then if, if, if we jump down to the next phrase, who control us and subject us the devil, one of the things I think runs through this letter, um, and, and these sections is this important theme, um, that God is in control and in the sense that the, the, the devil has bounds that he cannot cross. And so we we're gonna get, we're gonna get things like thy days are known and they shall not be numbered less.

So that, um, this reminder that the there are bounds placed on the adversary and that, that the, there are, there are ways that, that, um, we can't be tempted above that we are able, we can't be tried above that. We are able that, that the Lord is still in control. And I, I think that reminder is, is really helpful and, and, and really important that e even in the midst when it seems like things are falling apart and out of control, that, um, God is in control.

I'm [00:36:00] so thankful you shared that. I just put a whole square around that sentence because, or that phrase, um, because when you just taught that to me, I felt the spirit. I, I I love what I just felt just then JB thank you so much to think that the, that the devil has bounds. Yeah. And when you connect, pared it to that scripture that we won't be tempted above that, which we are able in Corinthians that.

I really appreciate that. I felt that when you, when you taught it, it's true. It's absolutely true. I agree. Wow. So with these six verses, and it's important for us to read them and just soak them in, I was interested about how old the people are who are experiencing this with Joseph. 'cause they're only in their early thirties, late forties.

They're pretty young. And I mean the youngest at the time is 31, the oldest is 47. And so there's just these young men figuring it out. Again, the church is still not that old, eight years old. And they have just joined the church and, and now here they are in this experience in this prison. And then I have this quote from Elder Holland in his talk lessons from Liberty.

And so, JB, will you please read this for us? Just at the time he felt most alone and distant from Heaven's Ear was the very time he received the wonderful administration of the spirit and wonderful, glorious answers that came from his father in heaven into this dismal dungeon. In this depressing time, the voice of God came saying, my son, peace beyond thy soul, thy adversity and thy affliction shall be, but a small moment.

And then if thou endure it well, God shall exalt the on high thou shalt triumph over all thy foes. Thank you. Let's mark those in our scriptures. Turn in. We're in section 1 21. We just read verses one through six, bracket off one through six and write Joseph's painful. I wrote this painful personal cry from the heart.

And then bracket off verses seven through 33. And here is the Lord's response. And JB read verses seven and eight, which is that beautiful, awesome response. Peace be unto [00:38:00] thy soul, thy adversity and thine affliction shall be, but a small moment. And then if thou endure it, well God shall exalt the on high thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

And I have a question for you jb, 'cause I wanna know this from you. Those two verses, verses seven and eight, how can they be productive to us rather than a platitude?

Wow. Powerful question. That's a really, really well worded question. Yeah. Because sometimes, sometimes, you know, we can. Make this trite or, and also sometimes we can make it, you know, we can dismiss other people's pain. Yes. And, um, and, and, and, and not fully acknowledge how tough it is that they're going through.

Wow, that's really good. Um, well, the thing that came to my mind, uh, or one thing that comes to my mind is this. Break between six and seven. What we have now is verse six and verse seven. There's this section of the letter that's not included, tell us. And this section of the letter, I think becomes so important, um, to me, just makes this whole, this whole passage come alive.

So if, um, a great way to see the letter, the full letter is you can go to the Joseph Smith papers website. Okay? And, um, one, one easy way to to navigate to it is I, I like the documents section of the website. So if you go to Joseph Smith papers.org and you choose the documents tab, the documents are all organized chronologically.

So you, you'll see there by year. And so you can come to the section heading of the doctrine come section you're interested in and find the date. So in this case, 1839. And then it's all chronological. So then you can scroll down and find letter to the church in Edward Partridge, March 20th, 1839. That's the full letter that this comes from, that you can, you read the whole letter to have great transcription.

Oh, that's cool. And so in between, in between, what is verse six and what is verse seven? Joseph has this [00:40:00] section where he is talking about a number of things, but one of the things he talked about is we received some, so this is according from the letter. We received some letters last evening, one from Emma, one from Don Carlos Smith, his brother, and one from Bishop Partridge, all breathing, a kind and consoling spirit.

We were much gratified with their contents. We had been a long time without information, and when we read those letters, they were to our souls, the gentle air, refreshing. But our joy was mingled with grief because of the suffering of the poor and the much injured saints. He goes on to say, those who have not been enclosed in the walls of a prison without cause or provocation can have.

But a little idea how sweet the voice of a friend is. One token of friendship from any source, whatever, awakens and calls into action every sympathetic feeling. Little bit later on he says. When the heart is sufficiently contrite, then the voice of inspiration stills along and whispers my son, peace beyond thy soul.

Th adversity and th affliction shall be, but a small moment. And then verse seven, that's where verse seven picks up. Mm-hmm. Wow. And I'm so struck that that, you know, the way this letter's put together that Joseph is, is talking about how much of an impact letter from his wife, his brother, his friend Edward Partridge, how much those seemed to create the space for his heart to, um, open in a new way and this kind of refreshing breath of fresh air that he calls it.

And, and that then all of a sudden it raises this feeling and he's able to hear the voice of inspiration whispering my son, peace beyond by soul. Mm-hmm. And um. So I, one thing I, I take from that is that in our moments of anguish, how important it is for us to have, um, supporters, [00:42:00] uh, who, um, are there, who are the, the, um, sweet voice of a friend like Joseph Smith said, who are bias reminding us of love, um, that that alone can sometimes be the thing that opens our heart for hearing inspiration.

Um, how important it makes me think about to be that kind of friend, to be that kind of person that we're, we're trying to be there with people who are in these Liberty, Liberty jail moments. And, um, and, and I think the, the recognition, um, that what Joseph Smith said is when the heart is sufficiently contrite.

And, um, so, so much of that I think is, is important for us to just, to be still, to be listening, to be. Mm-hmm. Um, to be ready for an answer like this that comes, um, it's such a great question. I'd love to hear what you think what I mean, I know this is not my role, but what do you think about your Great question.

You're fine, your great question. No, I love that you gave us that information between those two verses because isn't that really interesting that a, a word from a friend. And his spirit being contrite is what allowed for the spirit to speak to him. Yeah, definitely. Like definitely it's gonna be okay.

Definitely. Yeah. How many of us can't relate to that when you're, I mean, there's so many studies that show when you're going through a difficult time, sometimes the most important thing you can have as a friend. Yeah. And just someone to just like blah, like just say everything you're thinking and feeling, and I just love the timing.

Of receiving those letters from friends. And then he says, oh, peace be unto thy soul. 'cause it was because of his friends. He had peace to his soul. Yeah. And thine afflictions, they, they weren't gonna be a small moment actually. But in the grand scheme of things, when you have your friends, everything's small.

That's what I, I at least that how it is, is for me with my friends, I think of the most difficult times I've [00:44:00] ever had. It was my friends who made it manageable and doable. And maybe that's the small moment. Like, you are gonna be in this a long time sister, but you're gonna be able to manage it and it, you'll look back on, on this and go, ah, that was nothing, even though at the time it's everything.

But I love what you just shared with us, so thank you. And then in eight, if you endure it well, you'll be exalted on high. But that endure it well is not easy. No, it's not. Let's be very clear. It's not. So I'm gonna share a story later on about how not easy it is, but before we do. Jb you're gonna tell us a little bit more about this section.

So here's what I wanna do though. The very first lesson Elder Holland wants us to know is that everyone faces trying times. And that's what we just got done talking about. Or what I like to say is everyone's gonna do some time in the prison, so just get used to what people you're gonna do some time. And then Elder Holland says this, we are not alone in our little prisons here when suffering, we may in fact be nearer to God than we've ever been in our entire lives.

That knowledge can turn every such situation into a would be temple. And so in the next segment, we're gonna continue our discussion of these temples and jbs gonna teach us about the second lesson, which is even the worthy will suffer. And we're gonna dive into some verses about that in the next segment.

Segment 4

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Alright, JB teach us about the second lesson that even the Worthy will suffer. I think it's such a profound point such's, a well put point that the Elder Holland says, um, as he says this, and I, I, I really, I, I really like how he framed this and, and I think it's, I, I think this is, this is a hard truth, uh, really hard truth.

Elder Maxwell, who always had the best way of, of putting things. He, he, he said that there are some wintry doctrines and these, these are wintry doctrines that they, they, mm, they can, they can be, they can be chilly, uh, and, and chill us. [00:46:00] Something that I, I'm sure every one of us on, on this, uh, listening and, and we can all relate to is how moving we find in section 1 22, the, the description of the things that Joseph Smith has faced.

It's interesting because the way it's written is there, it's sort of like hypotheticals, like if this happens to you, if this happens to you, oh, I noticed all the ifs. I highlighted them. Yeah. In versus, let's see, they start in verse five, right? Yep. That's right. For anyone listening, highlight the verses.

Yeah, that's right. Highlight the ifs. Yeah, we're in 1 22 verse five. If thwart called the path through trivi tribulation, if thou art imperils among false brethren, if thou arent imperils among robbers, if thou were accused with all manner of false accusations, if that enemies fall upon the, and on and on and on, mm-hmm.

They're, that's framed as a hypothetical or like a, a potentiality. But these are all things that had happened to Joseph Smith in the last few months. Yes. This is a catalog of what he's just experienced. Yeah. And, and so we, we get to that in, in verse six of 1 22. If they tear the, from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters, and if with a drawn sword, thine enemies tear the, from the bosom of thy wife and of thine offspring and elder son, this.

Happened. Um, and although six years, but six years of age shall cling to thy garments and shall say, my father, my father, why can't you stay with us? Or my father? What are the men gonna do with you? And if then he shall be thrust from me with by the sword and now shall be dragged to prison. And then enemies, p prowl about around the, like wolves for the blood of the lamb.

This was a memory, not a, not a hypothetical, not a potentiality. This was an experience that he had in early November when he was arrested and, and ripped away from his family after a, a, a final farewell before he's taken to these, these, this string of court appearances. And so this is Joseph Smith's experience.

If thou shall be cast into the pit, the hands of murders, the sentence of death passed upon the, all of these things [00:48:00] have happened. If that'll be cast into the deep. Then he, and he just gets this poetic say, feeling that I'm sure about putting into words what it just felt like to be him at this, this, the deep, the billowing surge, the heavens gather, blackness, all elements combined against the hedging, up the way and, and feeling the jaws of hell open.

And then this comes at the end, no thou my son, that all these things shall give the experience and shall be for thy good. And I, I'm still struck by your great question, Tammy, about, you know, how does this become productive and helpful rather than just platitudes? Because I mean, the fact that we've just cataloged what Joseph's Smith has been through.

Yeah. And, and then to think about this, first of all, the Lord reminded him, you're my son. Mm-hmm. That these will give you experience and that they can be for your good. Um. Scripture that a scriptural phrase that has come to mean more and more to me as much as any scriptural phrase. It's in Romans 8 28.

It's repeated a couple of times in the doctrine, covenants in, in different flaws, but close, closely worded about the same. Um, all things shall work together for the good of them that love God. And I remember, you know, uh, thinking earlier in my life, okay, that cannot be true. This has to be poetic license.

This has to be a bit of hyperbole. This has to be, you know, the making a point. But the more I've lived, the more I have just come to be 100% convinced that this is true, literally true. That. God can turn all things for our good, not that all things that happen are good. I think we should really make a distinction of that.

Not that he wills all things to happen. We, this is, we're, we're not fatalists in that way. Yeah. Um, what we, we should make a really, I think, a careful distinction between what God allows versus what God causes. Mm-hmm. And that the source of afflictions come from so many [00:50:00] places, including other people's agency.

In, in this difficult situation, we're in immortality, but still all things that happen to us, God can work for our good. He is that good. Yeah. And, um, that, I think, can you gimme an example? Do you have an example from your own life? I know I didn't prepare you for that, so if you can't It's okay. JB you can keep going, but I would love to know, do you, how do you know this is true?

Oh yeah. It's a great question. It's. Yeah, I can think of, you know, all kinds of things. Small and, and great that the, you know, probably like you where these experiences that we look back on and we realize, wow, that was terrible. Wow. Um, that was not what I wanted. I certainly wouldn't have looked for that.

But somehow, somehow I'm different. Somehow I am. God has turned that into good. I I can see where the, where he's, he spun gold from this. Mm-hmm. What about your career? Oh yeah. Is that one, were you always gonna be a seminary teacher? I, I sure always wanted to be. So I was, uh, you know, I was so grateful.

Nevermind it keep going. So grateful to, to work my way in somehow. To sneak my way in. But that's a, that's actually a really good one. I, I think, uh, I think things like career, I think things like where you want to go to college, I think, you know, what you're hoping is going to your, your life is going to look like.

Uh, so many times when things look different than we thought and it feels like we are our most desperate prayers have not been answered. Um, and then, and then we look back and we say, oh, um, I, I see how God has worked out for good. I'll share one that maybe is, well, this is not my story, so maybe I should think carefully about this.

It's my grandpa and grandma, both of whom are deceased, but my. Grandma who was in phenomenal [00:52:00] health for the last, you know, years of her life, many years of her life, struggled more and more with dementia and just got worse and worse. But she physically, she was in such great help health, and part of the problem was that she always wanted to go on walks and because she couldn't remember, you know, my poor grandpa is being dragged out to go on walks four or five times a day, and she's forgotten that they've already gone on a walk just a few minutes earlier.

And so, but, um, this was hard. And you think, boy, dementia, why, why dementia? Why, you know, so many people who have just watched their loved ones be, you know, ripped away from them by degrees, and it just feels so merciless to see them lose you, lose this person. And, um, but I watched my grandpa and who was already a, a hero of mine.

You know, he, he stood so tall in my eyes, but I, I watched him even change, um, as he's taken care of his beloved wife, my grandma, his tenderness, his patience, his, his ability to roll with the punches. He, this worked him for good. And, uh, I, I, it was amazing and you could just see this happening. I, um, here's, here's a, a John Taylor quote that, um, that I love so much.

He said, I used to think if I were the Lord, I would not suffer people to be tried as they are. But I've changed my mind on that subject now. I think I would if I were the Lord, because it purges out the meanness and corruption that stick around the saints like flies around molasses. Oh. That's a fantastic quote.

Wow. We'll put that in our show notes, everybody. 'cause I know you're gonna wanna put it in your scriptures. Holy cow. I'm that way. When I see people suffering and struggling, I say a prayer. Heavenly Father, please release them of that, please. Oh yeah. I'm gonna change my tune now. Wow. Here's, here's one more.

This is from, uh, a latter Saint, um, [00:54:00] a, a really fantastic and prominent, latter saint social scientist named Carl. Carl, Fred Broderick. And, uh, um, he, he, he, in, in one of his essays, wrote about watching his stepfather, um, suffered the last few months of his life with a terrible, terrible, um, effects of cancer.

And this is what he said near the end of about his watching his stepfather. He could have been embittered, he could have been destroyed, his faith could have soured and left him. But he chose to learn from his pain. I do not want you to think that the pain was good. It was the man that was good and that made the pain work for him as indeed our savior did.

Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. And, and, and maybe one more, this is from, uh, please, a Catholic Monk Thomas Merton in his book, the Seven Story Mountain, I just, this one just fires me up. Souls are like athletes that need opponents worthy of them if they're to be tried and extended and pushed to the full use of their powers.

And, and you, you, you can just sense that, um, are loving, heavenly father sees what we can become. Mm-hmm. And, and he knows we've got it in us. And, uh, and, and he, and, and so he's, he's saying to us. All these things shall give the experience and shall be for the good. Not because these things are good, but I'm good.

Yeah. And, uh, I, I can turn this for your good. Wow. I mean, everything you've said is absolutely true, 100%. And I'm drawn to the scripture in Isaiah, and Elder Hall quotes this, but it connects so beautifully with what you've just taught us. It's in Isaiah chapter 49, verse 16, and he says, behold, I have a grave in the, upon the palms of my hands.

Thy walls are continually before [00:56:00] me. And I can always remember going Well, I get that graven the upon the palms of my hands. I totally get that. But for a long time I'm like, but the walls are continually before me. Like, what does that mean? And I remember studying it and diving into it and figuring out all the words in Hebrew and the, the history behind this verse.

And it finally hit me and I realized, oh my goodness, at the time that this is being received. The walls of the city had been destroyed or crumbled or broken, or they weren't, they weren't able to protect the people like they should have anymore. And here's the Lord saying, thy walls are continually before me, meaning in my mind, in Tammy's Tammy Hall 1 0 1 is I see your walls and they're not too broken for me.

Mm-hmm. And they're not even so broken that I'm gonna look away. No matter how broken you think you are, your wall is continually before me and everything you're experiencing. 'cause I think sometimes our trials break us. Sometimes what we're experiencing can make our walls seem very ugly. And the Lord's like, nah, it's continually before me and I'm going to help you.

And I love how you pointed out that he says in verse seven, he calls him his son. Yeah. My son. That's the first thing I want you to know. Yeah, that's right. How much love is packed behind that term and then to say it's going to give you an experience and it's going to be for your good. Yeah. I know it will be.

I just, oh, I think that's so brilliant. And the quotes you shared JB are perfect. So thank you. Oh, thank you. Thanks for making that, that fantastic Isaiah connection. I love how the spirit's so strong. Mm-hmm. Huh? This is cool. Yeah. Okay, go ahead. Anything else to share? Yeah, go. Yeah, maybe one, the one other thought this is, this is relates to Elder Holland.

So then after that fantastic, remarkable end of verse seven. Um, we come to verse eight of 1 22. The son of man has descended below them all art out greater than he. And this [00:58:00] reminder might be everything. It, it might be everything that we need to remember. Uh. And so I, I, elder Holland has such great things to say about this verse in his lessons from Liberty Jail.

Um, talk, but, but I, my mind went to another elder Holland talk, an earlier Elder Holland talk. This is, um, from the October, 1995 general conference and a talk Elder Holland gave called this Do and Remembrance of Me This amazing talk about things that, that we might think about during the, the administration of the sacrament.

Mm-hmm. And he just, he gives this incredible list of things. And then this is what he, elder Hall said in the middle of that, talk to those who stagger or stumble. He, Jesus Christ is there to steady and strengthen us. In the end, he's there to save us. And for all this he gave his life. However, dim our days may seem they have been darker for the savior of the world.

In fact, elder Hallan goes on in a resurrected otherwise perfected body. Our Lord of the sacrament table has chosen to retain for the benefit of his disciples. The wounds in his hands and his feet and his side signs, if you will, that painful things happen, even to the pure and perfect signs, if you will.

That pain in this world is not evidence that God doesn't love you. It is the wounded Christ who is the captain of our soul. He who yet bears the scars of sacrifice, the lesions of love and humility and forgiveness. Those wounds are what he invites young and old then and now to step forward and see and feel.

And I think when we just let that settle on us, um, it reminds us that, that, of course, there is someone who understands. Of course there is someone who knows how to sucker us. Of course there is someone who is ready to strengthen us soon we stagger and stumble and, um, the, the wounded Christ is the captain of our soul.

And I, and I, I'm so grateful for Elder Holland, putting it that way. [01:00:00] And, and so when, when we're looking for power more than just platitude, to go back to your this great question. Uh, I think this is the power, um, to, to be reminded of, of God's goodness that all things can work together for our good. And that is the wounded savior is the reminder that, um, he's descended below it all and therefore he can lift us up.

He, he has overcome all and he can help us do the same. Wow. I'm writing so many notes in my scriptures. Oh, this makes my heart so happy. I love learning all of this stuff. JB, thank you for teaching us that. I love how you emphasize. Of course, there is someone who understands us. Of course, there is someone.

Of course, of course. Like I just wrote that all over that verse eight. Of course. I don't ever wanna forget what I'm feeling and thinking right now, so thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Well, thank you. Thanks for engaging this conversation. Yeah. Well, let's do this then. So in the midst of your trials and in the midst of all of the stuff we're going through, one of the things that I love that we find in these sections is how to get through your trying times.

There's actually an instruction on how we are to behave or feel when we're going through these trying times. So we're gonna talk about what that is in the next segment.

Segment 5

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We're gonna jump right into section 1 21. Let's go to verse 36, and we're just gonna read this, and then I'm going to explain what it has to do with me and my story. So Doctrine and Covenants, section 1 21, verse 36. I had to learn this in a very real way. And JB we read that verse for please. You got it, that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled, only upon the principles of righteousness.

Thank you. Okay, so here's my very, very trying time in my life, and it was one of the most trying times of my whole [01:02:00] career. I had received a three page single space, 12 point font, small margin letter from one of my supervisors detailing all of the things that he did not like about me and all of the things that he had perceived that I was doing wrong and made me inexperienced and made me not fit for my position.

Yikes. I know I'd never received anything like that in my whole career. And, and he dropped it on my desk 'cause he was leaving for the weekend. It was a Friday night. And so I'm sitting in my office and I read this three page letter, JB, and I was, oh my goodness. Devastated. Like, I started sobbing uncontrollably.

I didn't know how to handle it. JB because I'm a pleaser, like I do not like any type of discord at all. And so I remember thinking, I gotta get outta here. I mean, I, and I am not a very, I mean, okay, I contend to be dramatic and whatever, but not really. Like, I'm not one to be like, oh my gosh. But I was devastated.

And my sister, who lived in St. George at the time, St. George, Utah, which is about a four hour drive from where I was living, I'm like, I gotta get outta here. And I called her and I said, can I come stay with you? I'm not doing well. I drove all the way down to St. George. Wow. Just replaying this letter in my mind.

Oh wow. Yeah, spent the night at her house, woke up the next morning, and I've never, ever had a visceral reaction to something like it made me physically sick. Oh, wow. I woke up that morning and threw up. I was so ill about this, and it was so upsetting that I remember. On Sunday, I got back in the car to come back to work, and now I'm not sad anymore.

Now I'm mad and I am determined to get even like I, oh, I'm gonna write my letter. I sat down at my computer and I wrote an equally awful letter, and I remember I'm going to give this to him and then I'm gonna call his area director and I'm going to get him fired, and I wanna make his life miserable. I mean, I'm playing this out in my mind about how I can get even, because I'm so angry at this experience and I remember thinking, okay.

I know I can take this to the Lord, 'cause he's gonna agree with me that I have every right to be [01:04:00] upset. So I actually went to the temple. So for three weeks I was building up all of this, um, ammunition to just get even. And for three weeks I refused to speak to this person as well as all of my colleagues.

I kept huddled in my office and I was just angry and upset and pouting. I also couldn't teach for three weeks. I couldn't do anything for three weeks. It consumed my life. It was such a, like, I'll never forget this moment, because the thought came, okay, well maybe I should just go to the temple. So I decided I'm gonna go to the temple, and then tomorrow I'm gonna just, my plan is gonna go into place.

And I went to the temple. And as I'm sitting there, just as clear as day is this verse and then the answer to my problems. And I love this verse because this idea that the rites of the priesthood. Now that kind of struck me because as a woman I'm like, do I have rights to the priesthood? And then I remember, and I love that you quoted a scripture from Romans chapter eight, 'cause that's where I went, was in Romans chapter eight, verse 17 that says that we are heirs with God and joint heirs with Christ.

That includes his power. So as women, absolutely. I have every right to inherit something like an heir, which is God's power because of my covenant. So I have a right to the power of the priesthood. And this verse, it says right here that the, the powers of heaven cannot be controlled, are handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

And I was like, oh, I'm not making very good choices. Nothing righteous about my retaliation. Right? There's, there's no righteousness in retaliation. And so I remember reading again, it's just like you said, like it's the go-to for whenever you're in a time of trial and, and sadness and everything. And then I read these other two verses.

So let's just read verse 45 and 46. And can you please read those jb? Oh, you bet. Wow. What a story. Oh, thank you for sharing this. I'm not even done. You wait till you find out what I did. Okay. I cannot wait. Oh, I'll give you the, yeah. Okay. I'll read this. I'll read these verses. Let thy [01:06:00] bows also be full of charity towards all men and to the household of faith.

Let virtue garnish thy thoughts. Unceasingly then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dues from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion and th scepter, and in changing scepter of righteousness and truth and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion.

And without compulsory means, it shall flow into the forever and ever. So you can imagine, I'm reading this in the temple and the spirit's like, wah wah, Tammy, come on. You know better. You know better. And I read and, and so then for the next week, all I kept thinking about were these verses. Let virtue garnish thy thoughts, unceasingly, let thy bowels be filled with charity.

Then I'm like, heavenly Father, how am I supposed to handle this? What am I gonna say to him? Because I have to say something. We can't keep teaching this way and, and I can't go the rest of the year not speaking to my supervisor, and I know it needs to work out. And so I spent the next couple of weeks praying and going to the temple.

What am I gonna do? Because I'm so mad. And I noticed the moment I asked Heavenly Father what I'm going to do immediately. Don't we love that? That I like, I was so in the wrong and I had this, this yucky, contentious spirit. But the moment I went to Heavenly Father that the powers of heaven were open for me to receive this answer.

And so just as clear as day, this is the answer I got. So I called my supervisor and I said, can we please meet? And we met in his office and I sat down and looked at him and we both stared at each other with these sort of blank stares, not knowing what to say to each other. And this is, the spirit told me to say this and I, and it, and it prompted me that whole week I knew what I was gonna say and this is the only thing I said to him was this, so this is heavenly Father.

I just hope that God is more merciful and kind with us than we have been with each other. Wow. That's not Tammy. Like, I don't, that was so heavenly father. And he looked at me and he goes, I agree. [01:08:00] And we just shook hands and it was fine after that. Like that's all it needed to be said. Wow. We didn't have to hash out at like, there was a part of me that just wanted to, you know, scream and yell and point my finger.

But going back to this verse, this idea that I needed to have charity and I needed to have faith and all of these powers, I needed the Holy Ghost to live my life to teach. And that retaliation just wasn't the answer. And I think back now to Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail and the people like they wanted to retaliate, I'm sure, but isn't this amazing that here we are hearing about how horrible it is and then the spirit's teaching him, oh, by the way though, that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and they can't be controlled nor handled upon by principles of righteousness.

That is such a powerful lesson. And I learned that, and I'm so grateful for that because we look at all of these verses and they're so, they're just so deep with truth and wisdom. And those are the ones that stuck out to me in my life. But JB I have a question for you because I wanna know this from you.

In verse 45, talk to me about this. Thy confidence shall wax strong in the presence of God. Wow. Because I felt like that's what happened to me after my moment. Like, I could stand before God, I think. Yeah. What a story. That's amazing. Oh, thanks. And, and, and good for you for, for being open to that. Like you, that that's one of the things that just amazes me about this section in this letter is that in the midst of all that Joseph Smith is feeling, and all he's gone through all that is that is, you know, is certainly, uh, just the, that's the, the, the wolves prowling around him in, in so many ways that his mind is going to kindness and charity and meekness and gentleness and love and feign.

I mean, this, this, it's miraculous and this just to me just says this has to be inspired, has to be heaven sent. This has to be the spirit working on him and his openness to it in such terrible situations like you who was, was open to inspiration. [01:10:00] And, um, I, I love that phrase. I love that phrase so much that confidence shall wax strong in the presence of God.

Um, so here's where my mind goes when you ask that question. Uh, my, one of my dad's former mission presidents was the sealer who, uh, performed the ceiling for my wife and me. His, his name was, uh, Spencer Osborne, who was a general authority and the great mission president for my dad and the temple president of Salt Lake Temple.

Remarkable man. He performed my marriage and then he performed the ceiling for six of my sisters. So I got to hear him perform a lot of ceilings in our family, and it was, it was remarkable. And he, um. Essentially did the same bit of counsel to, for each one of us. So we got to hear it over and over. He quoted section 1 21 versus 34 to 46.

And that was his Oh my, his advice at our, at our, at our temple ceilings. And I, I, I, I think this is the best relationship advice anywhere. And you think about this in terms of relationships and mm-hmm. And how we get along in our families, how we get along with, with coworkers, how we, we get along in church communities, how we get along in the world.

And what he would always say, president Osborne said is, is the confidence in the wax strong in the presence of God is, he said his mission president would almost always pray, you know, that, that we could come back into Lord's presence and feel comfortable being there. And, um, I, I think there's something about, um.

Elder President Nelson is encouraging us is that, uh, is is that when we, um, when we have his image in our countenance, when we are, are trying to live as peacemakers, when we are trying to be disciples of Christ, trying to be the children of the covenant, that we feel the the Lord's spirit lifting us, helping us, changing us, and, and, and we feel that that quiet confidence of knowing God is with us.

Mm-hmm. So I absolutely agree. Beautiful advice. [01:12:00] What a great sealer. Oh, it was, it was awesome. Yeah. It was so, so remarkable. Remarkable man. And, um, the best advice I know. Yeah. It, it is. Oh, thank you for sharing that story. I really appreciate that. It is the best advice. And, and like you said, to come from this situation where they're just, they had every right to retaliate.

To me, this is proof that he is a prophet of God. Yes. Yes. Because the human of him would've been like. You know, get 'em. Yes. Yes. And he would've said to the saints, go for it. What? By any means possible, get me outta here. And he is. He is a man of God. Yes, I absolutely believe that. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

You're here. Amen. So then we have one more thing to talk about. So what we wanna do then is verses 45 and 46, the thing I love about these two verses and everything that you just shared, JP is an elder Hollands talk. He says this about Joseph Smith past prophets and our savior, Jesus Christ. He said they remembered their covenants, they disciplined themselves, and they knew that we must live the gospel at all times, not just when it's convenient and not when things are going well.

Indeed, they knew that the real test of our faith and our Christian discipleship is when things are not going smoothly. That is when we get to see what we're made of and how strong our commitment to the gospel really is. So knowing that quote, I think it's so fitting that Section 1 23 then contains some very applicable advice from a prophet who's coming from this place of charity and kindness to the saints that he wrote a letter to them, and we're gonna have JB tell us about that in the next segment.

Segment 6

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We are in Doctrine and Covenant Section 1 23. This is a letter that Joseph Smith is writing to the Saints, and again, it's an excerpt from a longer letter, and this is the portion that they've chosen to put in the doctrine and covenants, which I think is perfectly fitting. JB teach us about this section and what the prophet and the [01:14:00] Lord had to say to us.

Yeah, this, this is a really interesting section and, and portion of the letter and, and, and part of it is encouraging the saints to carefully document all of the things that they've gone through. All of the terrible things that have happened to them, the atrocities that they've experienced, and to, to put those together.

Um, in, in petitions for redress, which they do, the saints do, is they, they, they catalog the property. They lost the injuries that had happened. The people who had, had been, um, who had been killed. And they collect all of this as information, um, partly as, as the Joe Smith says in the letter, so that those who have misinformation can be brought to the truth.

They can understand the truth of what has gone on. One thing that struck me about this is I, I don't know, it struck me that we, that I think this shows that we owe it to people to really understand their pain, not to minimize what they've been through. Uh, we owe it to people to acknowledge their suffering.

And I think that that may be something here that may be a principle here is this, this sense of, of really acknowledging that they've been through tough things. And then after all of that, Joseph Smith closes this, this portion, verse 17. We close what we now as this section, therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power.

And then may we stand still. The utmost assurance to see the salvation of, of God and for his arm to be revealed and this trust that the, the Lord will take it. The Lord will do it. From there, we can stand still and to think of that word cheerfully emerge from. Yeah. Any piece of paper that comes out of Liberty jail just speaks so much to, to me about Joseph Smith's character.

Just how indomitable he was, how, how he was unsinkable, but, but also how, um, just how firmly rooted he was to this, the sure foundation of Jesus Christ and that he could say that, that we can do this cheerfully [01:16:00] and that we can trust. We have this optimism, this hope, the sense that, that that good things are coming.

Because, because we, we trust God who is the author of our, our hope and, and is the reason we hope. And then the verse right before I, I've always loved this image, you know, brethren? Yeah. This verse 16, that a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm in time of a storm by keeping, by being kept workways with the wind and the waves.

And I, I'm not much of a sailor, but, uh, but you know, from, from people who are sailors, I, you know, understand that the worst thing for sailors is no wind when they're just sort of stuck in the doldrums and there's nothing, they can work with ways and they can work with winds and they can, they can tack and they can move their sails around and they can be work ways with the wind, with their, with their helm if they steer things.

Wind can be productive. The worst thing is no wind. Mm-hmm. And, and so when we think about. Or you think about the great, um, sort of scriptural parallel for the Jaredites that in ether six, that the, that the wind always blew them towards the promised land. Yeah. And if we think of the wind and the waves, the, the adversity, the trials, the tough things in our lives, if we stay workways, um, it's gonna push us to the promised land.

If we keep our helm, that, that small, the small things we can do, the cheerfulness, the doing all things in our power and then trusting God, uh, we're gonna stay workways with the wind, it's, we're gonna use that wind. The Lord's gonna use that wind to get us the place we need to be. Oh, absolutely. I love that you brought up verse 16 and connected it with 17 because.

It makes me, it reminds me of a difficult time that I was going through and I had a friend give me a shirt and it's a quote from Winston Churchill that says, if you're going through, hell just keep going. And it made me think of great, great quote. There's a, there's this idea that bison in the winter when they're in a storm and the winds are blowing and the storm is coming down, it's, and the snow is coming so hard that there's this idea that bison, they just keep [01:18:00] going forward.

They don't turn away from the storm, that it's, they feel it's better to, and, and I was like, I've done all the research I can, because some people say it's internally, they have this desire to go through the storm and it can't be researched that it's internally. But what they are finding is all bison go through the storm.

Wow. They don't turn and hide or go opposite or try to run away from it. And so I just think about that idea that yeah, the wind, you want the wind, but the wind can be so uncomfortable sometimes. Yeah. And it can bring the storm and you might not wanna have to deal with that right now, but even a very small helm in the time of a storm.

I mean, and, and to you. And so here's my question for you. Give me an example of what a very small helm is for people. What is, JB ha's very small helm when he's going through a storm. What has helped you steer your ship?

Wow. Good. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I think that's the way you asked that question just made me think that sometimes when we're going through, um, hard times because it can feel so overwhelming and, and it can sap so much of our tension, we stop doing the little things that matter. Maybe the most, we, we, we might drop some of our best habits of, of spiritual connection.

We, we might feel so overwhelmed that we don't want to grab the scriptures. We might feel so swamped and emotionally drained that it's hard to think of praying in our family. Um, having a family holding family prayer, it, it, it sometimes might feel like, um, I'm not sure I can, uh, I can get myself up and, and, and go to sacrament meeting.

Uh, you know, all those things that I think that the, the weight of, of really hard things might. Bump some of the small things away from us, and that might be the time we need it the most. And then I, I think all of us should find ways to, number one, stay connected with things that help us keep perspective.

I, I find that music does that for me. I, I think, uh, oh, I like that music has such a powerful way of, um, sort of restoring balance and, and, [01:20:00] and evoking emotions and settling my mind. Mm-hmm. And, um, and then the other thing that is gonna sound so trite, but I think is, is so meaningful is find ways to serve And, uh, and.

Think of, think of maybe the smallest thing that we all have is a ministry and assignment. And to think about how maybe as we put some attention to our ministry and assignments, maybe that's the small thing that keeps us workways with the wind, and that takes us out of our, kind of our own selves and gets us looking outward, seeing new things.

Yep. Those are great answers. I wrote so many of them in my scriptures. That is awesome. So for every one of you that's listening right now, if you're in the middle of a trying time or if you know someone who is use section 1 21 through 1 23, but I really love verse 16. 'cause if you're sitting there thinking, but I'm doing all those things, I'm reading, I'm praying, I'm serving, I'm going to church.

That's okay. Just keep doing them. Just keep going through the storm. You're going to get out of this. And I'm just, I love everything you said, jb especially this idea to just acknowledge that people have pain. And I think that's a major lesson from section 1 23 is that people are struggling and, and the whole point of us being here together, and I love this why at church when we call each other brother and sister, is I think a reminder that we're family and we're just here to help each other out and we're here to get through this and, and it will be gotten through.

If that's even correct English. Yes. I think it will be through here, here, here. Oh. So thank you Jamie. Thanks for joining me. That's the end of our episode. Oh, thanks you so much, Tammy. That was wonderful. I'm so glad to be part of this. Thank you. Oh, okay. So just take a minute, gather your thoughts and just what's one eternal truth or something that you were taught in this episode that this spirit reminded you of or anything like that.

And I'm gonna go first 'cause you taught me some really great things. Okay, great. I loved love, love, and I felt the spirit so strong when you shared with us in Section [01:22:00] 1 21 verse four about talking about God who control us and subject us the devil. And I'm just, I'm so thankful you pointed that out and reminded us that that isn't just like something that we believe, like it really is a truth about him having parameters.

And so when you feel like you're being beaten up and overwhelmed, there are limits. And so just turn to God because he has way more power and control. So thank you for teaching that. That was cool. Great. Um, oh, so many good things. I, I, but I am, I'm grateful for your story. I'm gonna remember your story for a long time.

And, um, the thing that impresses me about that story is, um. The, the way you sort of were like a Joseph Smith who was in a terrible situation of not of your making, of someone else's. Of someone else's, you know, it may have been my making. He may have been right on a few things. Well, but I mean, but, but still did, did, did not.

You should, you should not have had this slamming to you. You should not have had this, had, had this happen. And, um, you were open to hear the Lord's voice. And that's, that's as much as anything to me that I just a, a admire Joseph Smith so much and, and honor him as, as a prophet, is his willingness to be open, to hear the whispering of the Lord's voice to, to, as he said, you know, when your, when your heart is contrite, sufficiently contrite, then you, you, the Lord's voice can whisper to you, peace me under your soul.

And so I'm, I'm so that I want to remember that. I want to be that kind of person that you've exemplified and the Joseph Smith exemplified of being open to the Lord's voice in tough, tough times. Thank you, and you have permission to share my story if it ever comes up in a class. Wow. For you. Well, thank you for you.

Oh, Jamie, this was awesome. So thank you so much. And for those of you listening, hang in there. You can do this. We encourage you to read these sections as well as the talk from Elder Holland, lessons from Liberty Jail, because [01:24:00] he ends it with a pretty powerful apostolic blessing. And so go and read that and just believe and hold on, you've got this.

Oh, that was great, JB, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thanks. Thanks, Tammy. Thanks for making this so easy and so inspiring for me. So edifying, it was really fun. I appreciate you so much giving your time. Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. It really was an honor, and so great to think of these sections and to think of them together.

And you're an outstanding teacher and so it's an, it's, it's a joy to be with you. Thank you. I, you know, we were taught by the best back in the nineties. Yeah, that's right. It was, it was a good time. It really was. So, yeah, I love that we got to be a part of that hiring. And I often remember that I, it's, I often say it was the golden, it seemed to me like a Golden Agent Seminary.

I, I, I mean, my kids are loving seminary and they're having such a great experience in such a blessing for them. But I, I worry about the smartphones, the distractions. I might talk to friends who still teach and I just can't imagine how hard it is right now. And, um, mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's a great stuff. It was a golden age for sure.

So, uh, thank you. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Thank you too, Tammy. Wow. Well, what was your eternal truth or takeaway? Oh my goodness. I want to know everything you're thinking and feeling. That episode was incredible. Go join our group on Facebook or Instagram and share what you've learned. And then at the end of the week, usually on a Saturday, we post a question from this discussion.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there, especially for this episode because it's where we're gonna have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our. Incredible study group participant was JB Haws, and you can find more information about my friend at lds living.com/sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our [01:26:00] executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember you, our God's favorite.