The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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In April of 2024, elder Kearon shared a story about a policeman that he had watched from his hotel room, and this policeman set up a roadblock on a very busy road. And to elder Kearon, he said that the officers seemed to develop a spring in his step as if he might start doing a little jig every time a car approached that he could turn around.

And he noticed that if the driver got frustrated about the roadblock, the policeman didn't even appear helpful or even sympathetic. He just shook his head repeatedly and pointed in the opposite direction. Now, maybe at some point in your life, maybe it's currently, you have imagined heavenly Father like this officer taking joy in turning us away.

Well, today as we study doctrine and covenants, sections 1 29 through 1 32, we will be taught that heavenly Father is in fact the opposite of this officer, and that the goal of our Heavenly Father is to remove all the roadblocks for us and that he wants to let all of us pass by. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study like my long longtime listening friends, Gar Lee and Tom Harrington. Hi guys. I love that I got to meet you through our friend Roberta.

Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's a little bit different each week. And today I am so excited because we have a powerhouse when it comes to teaching. These two guests have paid the price to teach and know their stuff, and I knew when I was gonna ask them to come on that these are the perfect sections for them because already they've said before we started that of all the sections, this is the one to get 'em.

And I love it so much. We have these beautiful women. It is Andrea Lindsay, and Shauna Siemens. Hi. Hi. Hello. Woohoo. Okay. Shauna has been on, she was on a long time ago, couple of years ago, but, uh, Shauna and I go way, way back. We got hired to teach seminary at the same time. Woo. Whoa. [00:02:00] Holy cow. It was so good that we have those kinds of connections.

Those were the wonder years, weren't they? I mean, just the trainings, all the fun things we did. And now Shauna, tell us where you are. 'cause this is really neat you guys about Shauna. Oh, so I have been with Seminary Institute for 28 years now, and I currently coordinate for seminary and institute in the Boston area.

So I have the southern part of New Hampshire and the northeast quadrant of Massachusetts. And I work with wonderful state called teachers and I teach institute in the Longfellow Park building for, um, all of the young single adults here in the Harvard, Boston area. So, cool. I love it. I mean, who would've thought back when we first got hired that a woman would be able to do what you're doing?

It's pretty awesome. It is. It is really incredible the opportunities that are coming forth. So I love. And what institute class are you teaching right now? I am teaching the writings of Isaiah. Yes. Hello. Yeah, I'd love that. This group of people want, um, they, they want things that they're, that are deep.

They wanna be able to say, I've, I've increased my gospel scholarship. And so yeah, we're tackling the writings of Isaiah and really enjoying it. Oh, that's so awesome. And then we have Andrea, Andrea, Andrea. Tell everybody a little bit about your background and, and your teaching. 'cause I, you guys are the best teachers ever.

You are so kind. I taught full-time Seminary institute, well institute just here and there. And I taught until. Oh goodness. I forget. 2011 is when I got married, and then in 2012, the birth of my son ended that contract and, and I got my dream job of being a, a mom and a wife. And so that was, that was great.

And I volunteered at the Logan Institute for several years. I live in Cash Valley. So anyway, that's, that's where I am at. And I know Shauna because she [00:04:00] was in the Religious Educators Master's program at BYU, and she was the first female to ever graduate from that. And I was number two. What? So when I found out about her, I contacted her.

I, I interviewed you for an article that I was writing too. And, and then later we got to be, she was a here at the institute and we got to. Know each other even better when she lived here. And we've just stayed connected since. So, well, the church makes the world a very small place, but then seminary and institute makes it.

Mm-hmm. Like just this tight group and I just love it so much. And especially if you're a woman in that tight group, you know each other, so. Yeah. Yeah. To, so a shout out to all the other women who are out there teaching, seminary and institute. Shout out. Yes. Whether it's all time or volunteer, like beautiful work that you're doing.

Absolutely. Well, Tammy, I gotta know where you're teaching institute, because I wanna send people to it. Oh, it's an institute class. It's actually here in my state is my calling. It's my state calling. I am the adult education specialist is the title. But it's institute. It's so fun. Shauna, oh my gosh. At 10:00 AM every Wednesday morning, so many people come from all over to come to institute and we're doing women in the Scriptures, so That's beautiful.

That is so beautiful. I know, I know. I wanna teach everybody. It's my favorite thing that I get to do. Best calling ever. Well, I have an article that you should read then. I'll send it to you. I wrote it. Please send it. Need to you. You need to put this, she's being shy. What are you doing? I'll put it in the bio just so that you guys can have it, but I wrote an article, it's called A Prophetic Priority.

The Vital Voice of Women, and it's about using, it's about elevating women's voices, not that they don't speak, but elevating women's voices. Using women's voices from the scripture, helping our students to understand the way women's voices work. Please send it. I may use it. Yeah. That, yes, please. And it's in the religious educator, right, Shauna?

Yes. Yes. It's [00:06:00] what? Yeah, Shauna. It's amazing. It's an amazing article. I'm so serious. Oh, you're out with you. You guys are so kind and coming from you. I will take that as the highest price. So thank you very much. I'm so proud of you. That's awesome. Yeah, she, she did a stellar job at this one. It's well done.

Well, I'm feeling a little bit more able to say something about it because President Oaks and President Irene and President Christofferson in their interview that they did just with Ja, with Jane Clayson Johnson, uh, spoke about that they haven't really used the daughters of God as well as they should.

And um, so I'm excited to see what will come next. And so I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable about saying, Hey, well I have an article that kind of ties in with that. So here you go. That is so cool. Yes. We're gonna put that in our show notes in your bio so people can, we'll put a link to that so people can read it.

And Andrew's an author by the way, so that's kind of fun. Yes. So tell everyone about your books. Um, I have written a doctrinal children's series of, of the, I took the nine basic doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter Day Saints and I, book one is the first three, book two. I'm currently in the process of having it illustrated and I just got the.

Cover for the book done. And I loved it so much that I had it made into print, and so I can give the picture I always wanted while tt Oh, that's cool. T institute and seminary, like the dispensation fathers. So that's cover and, and so anyway, I'm, I'm totally pumped about that, so I can, um, if you're interested in getting a copy, you can message me, but I have.

Yeah, I've loved it. And so my last book, which was written in 2017, won't be coming out until this one, of course, that I'm working on right now. But anyway, yeah. Congratulations. Yep. The painting is beautiful. We'll, well, if any of you're wondering what this cool picture looks like, go check it out in our show notes in the bios of Andrea and [00:08:00] Shauna, and then you can also see pictures of them and find out more information about these guests.

And you're gonna find our show notes at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. So go check that out. Alright you guys, this is such an exciting episode. So grab your scriptures and you're gonna definitely want something to mark them with. And let's dig into doctrine and covenants sections 1 29 through 1 32.

All right, you two. First things first, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were reading these sections and preparing for our discussion? When I was reading this, I actually saw something a little bit differently. I think every time you prepare for a different group, you get a. Different insights, and I think the insight that stood out this time is prefaced with the thought that comes from President Ezra Tappen.

And he said this back in April in 1987, the Book of Mormon brings men to Christ. The doctrine of covenants brings men to Christ's kingdom. And men, meaning men and women, of course, but I, I think of the exalting principles that are taught in these sections. And I don't want people to fall back from these because they're amazing.

But they guess the thing that kept coming was dial it back. Dial it back. Let's go back to the basics. If there's something in the exalting principles, let's go back to the basic principles and and shore up our foundation so we can prepare our heart to receive these because they are huge. In Section 1 29, I was like, this is a manual about talking to angels.

I mean, this is the s, the gift of the Ministry of Angels, and some of us aren't there yet, so how do we dial that back? We talk about the principle of revelation, of covenants, of commandment keeping, but we're gonna talk later about Polygamy and Angels and the Ministry of Angels is connected. Closely with this doctrine and, and so we have to dial back a lot of times to things, okay?

Mm-hmm. How can I shore up my faith in a prophet? [00:10:00] How can I shore up my faith in the Savior and his and our Heavenly Father's plan? You know, those kinds of things. So I can't even give you just one verse because there's so many verses that give you the character nature, but I think our connection to it that I can give a scripture for, and that is doctrine in covenant section one 30 verses 20 and 21, there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world upon which all blessings are predicated.

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to the law upon which it is predicated, and it, it goes back to. Obedience being the first love of heaven and that everything is based upon it. And sometimes what is required to be obedient is excruciating. It's hard, you know, and, and so hards are different things, but angels are with us all the time to make sure that the hard's possible.

You know, Andrew, as you were talking, what I love is this idea of dialing it back because. Y you are so right when you said polygamy is hard, well if that's, if, if polygamy is hard to even wrap your brain around, let's dial it back in Section 1 32 where it basically first starts talking about marriage.

Marriage is hard. But even if marriage isn't in your wheelhouse right now and you're not married, let's dial that back and go into section one 30 and talk about being obedient is hard. So I, I like how you can dial it back to this basic Prince Gospel principles, which is, let's just talk about being obedient first and foremost before you even have to worry about all the other things that we're being asked to do.

And I love that that is such a great way to approach these sections because if there are too much, first, let's just dial it back and go to the basics and let's study obedience first. 'cause that really is the whole theme of all of these segments is about this idea of being obedient and what obedience can bring us.

So thanks for pointing that out. Nice work. I love how what you just taught me and I applied it and it worked. Very cool. Shonda, what about you? For me, when things are repeated in the [00:12:00] scriptures, it, it catches my attention. Or at least that's kind of what I've started to pick up on. So when we went to section 1 29 and we approached the question you were asking about how these, these sections really help us to see that God wants to exalt all of his children.

I was looking at this repetition in verse three and in verse six, and again, like Andrea mentioned, it is talking about angels. That's not what I wanna get into right now. I'm just showing you something that was repeated where some of the angels can be the spirits of just men made perfect. That's what it says in verse three.

And then in verse six, the spirit of just men made perfect. And then I thought, I've heard that before. Where have I heard that before? And I went back to section 76. Ooh, yeah. Where we are talking about God's plan to exalt his children, to save all of his children. And we have in section 76 verse 69, these are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus Christ, the mediator of the new covenant.

And we're gonna talk about covenants today. Mm-hmm. And who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood? I was just thinking about that phrase, that it stands out to me that even in just this simple phrase, even though we're talking about, uh, angels, in Section one 30, we're talking about people who applied the atal men of Jesus Christ to their lives.

And the phrase just men, we could talk a lot about what that means, but in my mind I heard these are just men and women, not like just ordinary men and women. They're, they're simply men and women that are made perfect through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Now, I know you could talk about the word just and all that that means, but that's what I heard, that even just simply.

I can be made perfect through the atonement of Jesus Christ. And then it tied for me with verse [00:14:00] 24 in section 1 32, this is eternal lives to know the only wise and true God in Jesus Christ, whom he has sent, I am He receive, he therefore my law. So it goes with obedience like Andrea was talking about. It goes with the laws that he gives us, that we covenant in the temple.

All of these things are to help us, a simple men and women to be made perfect through the atonement of Jesus Christ. And how cool that that word just is, is everything you just said. That's awesome. Because I've often read that the same way, like just men, just women, but through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we become just so that like, isn't that kind of cool?

I love how you just connect those without Jesus Christ, we're nothing. And, and so just this idea that the dual. Meaning there for the word just is so cool. So thank you for teaching us that, Shauna. Oh my gosh, how fun. We're only in the first segment. I've learned so much. Oh, this is gonna be a good discussion.

Alright, so I hope everyone has their scriptures. You probably, I've already marked things in my scriptures, but now we're gonna dive into these segments and I ask these women a very specific question, and Shauna kind of alluded to that already. So in the next segment, I'm gonna tell you what question they had to read all of these sections with this question in mind, and we'll do that next.

Segment 2

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So here's the theme for this episode and uh, and this is what we talked about before we began, you both said, of all the things to make us find in these sections, it was so hard. And I agree. Trying to find this theme throughout these sections was hard, but I love that in the Come Follow Me Manual. It's the first thing it wants you to do in the Come Follow Me Manual.

It specifically says God wants to exalt all his children. And then it gives us the sections to find that. So I said, as you read this, give me all the examples you can [00:16:00] find of God wanting to exalt his children. And I tied it back to Elder Kearon's talk in 2024. And we're just gonna read a portion of this talk about the idea that God really does want to exalt all his children.

Andrea, will you read this quote for us please? Yes. My friends, my fellow disciples on the road of Mortal life are father's beautiful clan. Even his fabulous plan is designed to bring you home, not keep you out. No one has built a roadblock and stationed someone there to turn you around and send you away.

In fact, it is the exact opposite. God is in relentless pursuit of you. He wants all of his children to choose to return to him, and he employs every possible measure to bring you back. Thank you. So these sections, while they can be tricky. They are going to show us that God is in relentless pursuit of us.

That he does indeed want to exalt all of his children, not just some. He isn't there with a roadblock for a couple of naughty people that are like, go back, go back. I mean, heavenly Father's like, oh, I would, if, if anyone walks up to that roadblock, he would move it so fast. So that's our point with these segments.

So ladies, let's just start out, first and foremost, tell me, prove to me, what proof do we have that God wants to exalt all his children as you read sections 1 29 through 1 32?

Well, can I just start by saying that for me, all of this tied to temple? Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. For me, all of it tied to Temple and I was looking at it with more temple eyes, so to speak. And for those of our friends who have not been to the temple, my my hope is that you have plans to go soon. Or that you'll continue to learn and study about it.

But I think the Temple helps us with some of these chapters, I mean these sections as well. For instance, in section [00:18:00] 1 29 where we're talking about learning to de to detect the adversary. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think the, the instruction given in the temple helps us to do that as well. And not only detect, but also know how to eliminate him from our lives.

Right. Wow. And then when you go into Section one 30, it for me again, was Temple as it's kind of a question and answer series. And Joseph is explaining some of the things which his friend Orson Hyde had kind of taught incorrectly. And Joseph was like, Orson, can I, can I correct some of these things? And just Orson, and don't you love Orin's response to that?

Yes. I wouldn't like, I wonder how many people would be so offended. I would've been like, okay, nevermind. Yeah, sorry. I spoke up. Yes. And, and just his willingness to accept correction. And for me, again, that's temple. Like I go to the temple, not always, but seeking to be a better disciple of Christ. Mm-hmm.

And hoping that the Lord will correct maybe my false ideas of him, my false judgments of him. And then in section 1 31, where it talks about the three sections of the highest kingdom, and then section 1 32, where it just helps us to understand more fully about how to become like the savior. So for me, temple was woven through all of this.

Wow. Go back to section 1 29. We're not gonna spend a lot of time in that today. This is it right here. But is there a specific verse you had marked in section 1 29? I marked verse nine. Ooh. Tell us about that verse. Where it just says, these are the three grandkids where you may know whether any administration is from God.

Um, and we might read this thing though, while I'm still a little confused, I I'm okay with that. I'm okay that we're a little confused on saying that, but the thing I take away from verse nine is the Lord does want us to be able to detect the adversary. He wants us to be able to have these tools. Some of those tools are given in the [00:20:00] temple.

Other tools we find in the scriptures, other tools we gain as we learn to familiarize ourselves with the Holy Ghost and how the Holy Ghost works with us. But I just really appreciated that from that verse. The truth I learned about God is that he will give me keys, abilities to be able to detect the adversary and then distance myself from the adversary.

Can I ask for a personal application to this? Like, what is one of the tools you've used? How do you know if something is not right? You know, that's a really good question. Because I don't wanna be a person that just goes around judging people and assuming that people are always, you know, doing something of the devil when they might, when that person might be out to deceive me.

I don't wanna be a person who just judges God's children like that. But I do think that there are times, and I've had personal ones in my life where, because of the spirit, I was able to know from the Lord that a situation I was in was not wise, was not good. And I'm just grateful that I was living in a way that Spirit could communicate that to me.

That I had tried to learn more of how the Holy Ghost works with me, that I was listening. But I'm grateful for that prompting that I had that, and I'm just, I'm thinking of one particular situation. I'm sorry I can't share all the details there, but he, he, the Lord does help us and he wants us to be able to detect that and make wise decisions.

You know, the reason I asked you that question is because sometimes we can get caught up in section 1 29. I know for me, I did the first time I ever read it when I was in high school, I was so obsessed with the fact that there would be an angel appearing in my bedroom. And I would have to remember, do I ask to shake his hand?

Do I not shake his hand? What am I supposed to feel? Like? All the things. I was like, I can't remember what, you know, I was freaking out. And I think the reality of this section 1 29 is like, I love how you drew it back to the temple and the idea that God wants us to be able to discern between good and bad.

[00:22:00] And to be that there is three grand keys or three ways. And so we have very specific ones, but not many of us will be met up with the things in Section 1 29, but we will be met up with having to discern between good and bad the adversary and. And you know, the, the gospel of Jesus Christ. And so I like how it opens a conversation.

Then we can dial it back, like you said, Andrea, and then apply it to our lives. Like how have we experienced this? So thank you for sharing your experience. Like you do know the good from the evil and the temple does teach us how to detect and what to do in those situations. So fantastic answer. Thank you for sharing that, Shauna.

I was thinking of in verse seven, it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive. And I think we live in a world of mistrust and we have a problem sometimes knowing who we can believe, but the Savior and our heavenly Father, we can safely trust in them. We can trust them with the innermost part of our hearts.

We can trust him with our sins and, and overcoming them our weak spots, we can trust that. And when he sends someone and they're just, we can trust them. Yeah. And it's through the spirit as Shauna was talking about, that you can receive that discernment. But discernment is, obedience is required to have that gift.

Mm-hmm. Uh, we have to be obedient to the Lord and his commandments in order to have that gift and in enough measure to, to sometimes see these. And I do believe that God's merciful and even the ones that are living outside of the covenants can have those blessings through those that are living within their covenants, praying for them.

I agree. And so I don't think that they're left alone either, but, but it [00:24:00] sometimes takes another person using their agency and acting to get that blessing for them. And that's what our temple covenants do. Didn't you love seeing temple wording in these sections? That was so cool. As I was reading it going, oh, I've heard that before.

I, I know where that's from. And so you really do see the temple woven throughout all of this in very obvious, and then even very hidden ways. So that was pretty cool. Andrea, what are some ways that you saw that God wants to exalt all his children in these sections? Oh my goodness. I, when you first told me that, I was like, okay.

And I read it through without praying and asking for help, and I was frustrated. I can tell you that I was frustrated. I'm like, I had something else coming to mind, and so I don't. See this yet, so please help me see it. And then wording started jumping out and I started to to see, and I do think you have to have the humility and desire to see it.

Mm-hmm. And so that was something that was very helpful to ask that question. 'cause then I was like, okay, I'm looking for this. I need help because my brain is wired differently right now and honestly so much. But let me sum up, okay, really 1 32 is like the meat of our discussion, but there's some phrases I wanna say from this section in 16.

He says, those who are worthy of far more and exceeding an eternal weight of glory, he's talking about his children here. Like he's talking about the worthiness they obtained through the savior's grace, that he's got something really, really special for them. In 18. He says for for time and for eternity.

He also says, sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise joined by me. My house is a house of order. And, and these phrases, I was like, these are all that could be [00:26:00] painted onto little, little signs and put up all over our house as reminds vinyl lettering, right? He needle pointed on a pillow. Yes, for sure, for sure.

Yes. Because they're all about connection to him. They're all about his relentless pursuit of us and how he's trying to do that in 20, all things are subject unto them, and he's talking about people that he's empowered, right? Mm-hmm. And he says they have all power and the angels are subject unto them.

And I love when Joseph Smith speaks to the women in Navu in 1842, and he's talking about the privileges that they have. As sisters in the Release Society organization. He said The angels cannot be withheld from being your associates if you live up to your privileges. Mm-hmm. So how do we live up to it?

Keep our covenants, keep the commandments repent, participate in our covenant renewal every single week with the sacrament, like we can do this. These are simple things that we have to purposely do. Yeah. And I, I go back to how you started us and it all boils down to being obedient. Mm-hmm. Like dial it all back and the first thing we have to do is be obedient to have that power and privilege.

So, very cool. Andrea. Wow. This is gonna be a fun discussion. I love it. I would say for me, the one that I marked that really stood out to me, and I love this 'cause it's kind of been the theme for me this year, is verse 45, where he says. I conferred upon you, and this is the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith. I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood wherein I restore all things and make known unto you all things in due time and just how much our father loves us to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ back onto the earth.

Today, whenever I teach anything, especially this year, as I've taught and I, and I teach an [00:28:00] institute class, I make sure that my students know Joseph Smith didn't make this up. He restored it. Everything temple, the garments of the holy priesthood, all of it has been restored. And Joseph isn't sitting there thinking, what can I do to add to the gospel to make it even crazier?

A weirder? And so I want, I, I just, this stuck to me because the Lord. Through the prophet Joseph Smith and still through continuing revelation is restoring things back onto the earth to us so that everybody, that's the due time part. Like we're, we're in the, in the restoration, things are still being restored.

So when changes happen, we should be so excited thinking this is another step for me to be exalted. God loves me so much that he sees my day and time and knows I need this now. And we talked about this, but the word of wisdom is such a great example of this, like it was just a word of wisdom. Who knew that we would need it as badly as we do today?

And so here's Joseph Smith restoring this. Probably didn't even make sense. Like we drink coffee and tea. It's a mainstay for our people and here we are today. I, I just love this idea where. Has been restored so that we can all be exalted so that we don't become subject to addictions and all the things that happen because of that.

And so that was my verse. I just love that he loves us enough to restore things on back onto this earth for us to be re to return to him. So, well I just wanna add that I'm excited about what's still to come, that this restoration is being spoken of as ongoing. So what's to come next? I know 'cause God really does wanna exalt all his children.

So look how fun that was. Thank you. Come follow me writers for having us ask that question at the very beginning. First things first. So in the next segment then we're gonna talk about a truth that should make us so excited about being exalted and meeting God again.

Segment 3

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I have to tell you a fun story you guys, my last semester at Rick's, did either [00:30:00] one of you go to Rick's? No. BYU Idaho did? Yeah. All of us did. Rick's College. Yeah. Yes. Rick's College. Graduated in 95. Right on at Ana. When did you graduate? 90. I'm so old. 92. No, 92 for sure. Okay. You love this. In five years, did you guys, you probably don't know this about me, but my last semester at Rick's College, I did the discovery program.

I don't even know if you know remember this, but it's where we went and lived on the Salmon River for about six weeks. Oh my, my gosh. We started at the top of the Salmon River. We river rafted to the bottom and spent the next six weeks hiking back up to the top, and there were three men who were professors who taught us classes while we were hiking back up.

It's the only 4.0 I ever got in college. It was the greatest experience. Well, I have to tell you this because one of the classes we had was a religion class. Of course I didn't take it. Isn't that hilarious? I'm like, I'm not doing religion. So I did humanities and sociology, but our very, it was the very first time I ever did a Sunday, not in a church building.

So our Sabbath was in the mountains. And it was in this first Sunday ever, was in this beautiful field, and they blessed saltine crackers, and then they blessed water in a big old thermos cup like bottle. And then they poured that blessed water into everyone's little Sierra cup, and that's how we took the bread and water.

They didn't have cups, little cups or anything like that. It blew my mind. It was such a cool experience. And for the lesson that day, or for sacrament meeting, I should say, we didn't have a lesson. We just had sacrament for sacrament meeting. As the group of us were sitting around in a circle, we got done with the sacrament.

And the professor who was leading this crazy band of nutmeg, uh, whatever, we, I can't even believe we were doing this knucklehead. I'm jealous. Seriously. He started and said, for today's sacrament meeting, I'm going to ask you to share what do you know and believe about God? That's the first time in my life I've ever been asked that question.

The first time I've had to answer that question and when it got to me, my heart was racing because I had had a very profound [00:32:00] experience and I didn't know how to say it in words until that very moment. And I remember saying, I learned in my world religions course last semester. That God is a real human being.

And my whole life, I always thought God was this big, ominous, floating head over the earth, untouchable, kind of like this cosmic, I didn't even know how to describe God, and which is ridiculous. I was raised, remember my whole life, I just had never understood the full concept of God. And when I said those words in the wilderness, my heart exploded.

Because you know how when you say something, then the Spirit confirms it, then you know it's true. And I knew that that was true when I said it, and it just kind of blew my mind because I, I hadn't even studied Section one 30 in the Doctrine in Cabinets. Let's go there. Section one 30 teaches us a really important truth about the thing the Spirit taught me that day in the wilderness circa 1992.

And here we go. Shauna, will you read for us section one 30 verse one, and then go to verse 22? Yeah. Uh, when the savior shall appear, we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. And then verse 22, 22, the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, the son also. But the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit.

Were it not? So the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. Thank you. Alright, UTU, why is it important for us to know that our bodies look like Heavenly Fathers? And Jesus? I, uh, I did a little kind of, um, study of just bodies, like why is the physical body such an important thing that it's mentioned in the family proclamation that a number of apostles and prophets have spoken about?

Why this physical body, why it's so important that we would fight for the right to come and receive one [00:34:00] and. That, that is interesting. Sister Susan Tanner, who was president of the young women, do you remember her? She actually spoke about this, about how important our bodies are, and she talked about how we are more like God because we are embodied not less like we are more like God because we are embodied.

Mm-hmm. And that the adversary works hard to get us to detach ourselves kind of from our bodies. Maybe we get trapped into a virtual world. He gets us to defile our bodies or not like our bodies. Mm-hmm. Because it is attached to this doctrine of we are more like God because we have a body. And Elder Bednar actually said, obtaining a tabernacle of flesh is an essential step in the process of becoming like our heavenly Father, our physical body.

Make possible a breadth, depth and intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate. Thus, our relationships with other people, our capacity to recognize and respond to truth and our ability to obey. Going back to what Andrea was talking about, the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amplified through our physical bodies.

Isn't that beautiful? I think that's awesome. Such a good talk. So I, I really loved how we started and we kind of end this section having, like you were talking about Tammy, a, a better understanding of who God is and why this physical experience in a physical body is so important. Wow, so good. I love that you did a study on bodies.

It was an interesting one. Can I take you in one more direction on that? Yeah. Okay. So I know that this section one 30 is kind of, um, was a kind of a correction to Elder Hyde who had been preaching and, and gave [00:36:00] kind of that old notion of God just wasn't our hearts. And then as I was thinking, I went all the way back to Abraham when he's talking about Jesus Christ becoming our savior, coming down here to earth.

So it's in Abraham chapter three and it's in verse 24 where it points out that there was one among them that was like unto God. And then God and Jesus Christ talk about we're gonna make this earth where on all of these children can draw. And then in verse 25, we will prove them and this part of obedience to see if they will do all things whatsoever.

The Lord their God should command them. And then verse 26, they who keep their first estate shall be added upon, and they who keep not their first estate, shall not have glory in the same kingdom. I'm gonna stop there for a second. That's in verse 26. So when we kept our first estate, we were added upon, and those that didn't keep their first estate kind of going along with Section 1 29 where you have that devil and his angels, but they do not have, as said in verse 26, the same glory as those who were added upon.

Mm-hmm. So you and I were in the premortal life. We came down, we were added upon with what, what was added to us, a physical body. That's awesome. This, in this verse of scripture, it's called A glory. You were added upon with a glory that those that did not keep their first estate do not have. So it again, explains to us why the adversary doesn't have a body.

Mm-hmm. It's not that it was God just dishing out some sort of punishment. The adversary did not want to obey the things that God had put forward. Therefore, he doesn't have a body. We got a body. I never considered my body to be. A thing of glory world. I mean the world Isn't that fascinating that God is calling it a glory and the world world's like not glorious enough, right?

Let's fix it. Yeah, let's, let's try and make it even more [00:38:00] glorious. And the Lord's like, it's already glorious. It's a bot. Exactly. And if you want more glory in your body, like our Savior's glory and our father in heaven's glory, then it will be more glorious than anything the world is offering. Like understanding that we are limited in our vision of our body, and we think the way of the fall, the fall changed us so that we were cut off from the presence of God and yet he's our father.

We need to know he has a body because he's our father. We need to understand how sacred life is, how sacred the procreative powers are, how sacred, you know our bodies are. And we do, we get attacked. Endlessly about our bodies, but it is this fallen condition that we are in. And so dialing it back to the context of doctrinal principles, we know that heavenly Father had a plan, as you mentioned, that he's our father, that he has a body.

So the doctrine of the Godhead is present here and in the plan of salvation that fall. But in addition to the fall, we need to understand moral agency and how understanding that God is our father, that he has a body, changes the way we can use our moral agency with our body. Yeah. And I feel like it's all about our choices.

Yeah. We chose to leave our father in heaven come to this earth to gain a body, to gain experience, and then the use of our moral agency determines our outcome from here. In order to exercise the agency, there has to be oppositional force. Mm-hmm. And we actually have to have a knowledge of our choices.

That's why we have to understand the choices that are presented before us. And I often hear an excuse, well, they have their agency. [00:40:00] No, they don't. If you didn't teach them, if you did not teach them the principles, if they did not learn the doctrines, where is their choice coming from? Oh yes. Like they have to understand the options.

And that means diligent teaching. And I just wanna thank, but come follow me people for what they have provided. Amen. Mm-hmm. Because in these wonderful inspired sections, we have all the information we need to get a testimony of all the hard things. Yeah. It. It is so much better. I, I mean, I went to school to get a master's degree in religion and I can tell you this is better information than what I had available to me.

Then you, you have everything you need. Andrea, I love so much that you said you can't have agency if you don't have knowledge. And how much do we love a heavenly father who understands that about us? So Andrea, I'm so grateful you brought that up. And again, proof that God wants to exalt us by, I love this connection to added upon as our bodies, and they're glorious, but they'll be even better if we're just obedient.

So in the next segment we're actually gonna talk about then how do we get the chance to be more obedient and how do we get the chance to get more knowledge? We'll do that next.

Segment 4

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Alright, everyone go to section one 30 and I want you to highlight verses 18 and 19 and 20 and 21. Now we'll each take turns reading one of the verses and then Andrea has a really good story for us and I'm gonna have her tell it. So we'll start. We'll go Andrea, Shauna, and then me reading verses 18 through 21.

Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, [00:42:00] he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation of this world upon which all blessings are predicated.

And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to the law upon which it is predicated. Andrea, tell us your story about you in school and, and, and getting that intelligence. Well, it was a battle. Okay. I will say. And, and my poor parents that were trying to help me, I had to have tutors. I don't think, you know, at the time there wasn't a lot of testing and I'm sure that there were things that could have helped me had there been, if, if I was born in this day and age.

Okay. But back then, way back then, okay. I was, I just kind of had a, you're not battle my friend struggle through it. I just had a struggle through it. And so there was a detest for school because of how hard it was. And when I got counsel from my bishop, he was like, you gotta go back to school. I'm like, oh man, I thought my two years at Rick's was gonna do it for me.

You know, like I was like, I was kind of emotionally spent with that one. And I didn't have a lot of ambition for school because it had been so negative. Mm-hmm. But I had a wonderful aunt, my aunt Tanya, she sat me down and she helped me understand, even if you don't know what your major is, there's not a class, there's not a thing you study that isn't important.

She was trying to teach me the principles in these verses. She's like, eving adds to your character who you are. It will help you, it will improve you. Now my Aunt Tony, she did not marry until she was older and she had to live the lonely path of, you know, like just, that's sweet. Yeah. It was hard. But schooling saved her.

It helped her to gain that intelligent, it helped her to be an [00:44:00] extra mother to her nieces and nephews be there for us in the hardest times. Mm-hmm. And she was there for me. And so she actually helped me get into BYU. She helped me, you know,

overcome a real bad, weak spot. Okay. I would've never made it to that master's program without first completing the undergraduate that she got me into. And the master's program was why I was here. So it's Andrea, I love that you would share that that's near and dear to my heart. 'cause that's my situation and I hope I can be that kind of aunt that your aunt was.

How was it like your situation, Shauna? Uh, I just am single and, uh. Like Andrea, I was not excited about going to school for a long time. I thought, wow, that does, that does not seem like me. Uh, but now here I am having completed my doctorate degree and I'm very grateful for the knowledge and education, but I just was really touched by that story that Andrea shared.

So, absolutely, Andrea. Thank you. So now apply, go in and plug yourself into verses 18 and 19. What does it say to you? I think the advantage that I've been able to have, because I've awards endless pursuit of me. Hmm. It, it happened while I was obtaining higher education. There was a lot of opportunity for revelation, for humbling, for leaning upon him, for gaining spiritual gifts, capacities that I wouldn't, I had to get them to compensate for the weak spots.

There was absolutely no way I could have completed. Without those helps, and the Lord will give us whatever we need. He's promised us that and we just have to trust in him. And that overcoming the trust [00:46:00] issues of this world, this world just like impels us with trust issues and this mortal body accepts it like candy.

It's like, oh yeah, that's right. You know? Mm-hmm. It, and, and we have to get rid of the candy and start eating the real stuff because when we gain that, it does, it, it changes. It changed the way I thought about everything. I am not so easily convinced, and I take a long time to, to deliberate sometimes answers that I would've been quick to judge in my earlier days.

Mm-hmm. It, it matters that we study and I'm so grateful she took the time to just mother me in a principle that she understood perfectly. Mm-hmm. And she needed to make sure I knew. My heart. So, you know, as you were talking, Andrea, it reminded me of some wording in verse 19 there. So there's this couplet where there's these words kind of connected.

So you've got knowledge and intelligence that are connected. And then in that next line it says diligence and obedience. And it's made me wonder, does knowledge connect there to diligence? And does intelligence connect to obedience where knowledge comes through? Mm-hmm. Like this diligent nature that you were talking about from your aunt and from you really applying yourself, but then perhaps intelligence comes through, actually you put it to use the obedience, uh, factor of things.

Yes. So it made me wonder if those kind of tied together in a way. I like that so much because oftentimes we teach versus 18 and 19 as a lesson. And then we teach 20 and 21 as a lesson, but all four are the same lesson in one and, and based on what we talked about in the last segment, but this concept of then we go, oh, and then there's a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundation.

Maybe the law is what we just learned in verse 19. That's the law. And [00:48:00] so I think it's important to go, I like your connection so much, Shauna. That knowledge is diligence for sure. That's me, 100%. Me. I'm not that smart. I just am a scrapper and, and I'm diligent. Like I work really hard to get, um, in fact, there are siblings in my family way smarter than me, and I've told them that like, I'm not the smart one.

I've just put in the effort to do it. So I think diligence and knowledge go hand in hand, but then intelligence and obedience, that's the agency part. That's the part of taking what you've then been taught and now what are you gonna do with it? And that's the law. Irrevocably, decreed in heaven. I think so many times we get caught up in the idea of saying, okay, well I want, here's what I want.

So what's the law that I have to keep? That's kind of how we've interpreted those verses. I think we're missing the point. Right. Yeah, I totally agree. Because quite often when we think, and this is kind of going back to what Andrea said, I still, I am single, but that was something I used to think about, like what law am I not obeying that this.

Said blessing isn't coming forth. And that I think it's, uh, it, it's um, a limited way of viewing that principle of the doctrine that's limited is very, a nice, very kind word to say. I once had someone say to me when I was single, you know, you're not married 'cause you haven't learned everything you're supposed to yet before being, being married.

And I was like, what? That's the silliest thing I've ever heard. No, that's not true. But then the obedience intelligence part, I mean, when you become obedient to the law of marriage, you're gonna gain a lot of intelligence that you didn't think you could get. A lot. But I think it's interesting when you go to this idea of obedience because you paid the price as a single woman.

You know, you've been diligent, you've been on the dates, you've done all the things, and you absolutely wanna be obedient. But this comes full circle to first Nephi chapter three, seven. Yeah, I nephi. I will go and do the things which the Lord has commanded. I will be obedient to that commandment. Save the Lord has prepared a way for me to accomplish.

That's exactly right. And so that was a moment in my life that changed everything with [00:50:00] faith. I want to keep the commandment of being married, but God hasn't prepared away yet for me. So I'm just gonna keep on being obedient and diligent to all the other covenants that I've made. Well, and then I started thinking I can be obedient to the commandment of marriage even though my spouse isn't here.

Oh, now talk to me about that. I can be, I can be loyal to the covenants I've made. Yes, I can. I can, uh, grow in ways of being a good companion. I can grow in ways of being a good mother, even though I don't have children to mother right now. So even though my spouse isn't here yet, the fake old word I'm gonna use there, love it.

Um, I can still live as if those blessings have already come to pass. And I think for me, that has been a real tether to my father in heaven for me to be able to say, I, I totally believe you. I totally believe I am not going to be disappointed by waiting upon you. I believe that I can live these laws, even though currently that is not what my life encompasses.

Um, but I can be true to a spouse right now, even though my spouse isn't right here near me because of the way I treat others and the way I, I live my life. I, I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but that's kind of the way I you are. And for me, I just really loved how these words from President Udo, he was President Udo, when he gave these words, just really touched my heart.

Do you mind if I read it? Is that okay? Please do. In other words, he not only knows what is best for you, he also anxiously wants you to choose what is best for you, which I think is an interesting way to phrase that. Mm-hmm. If you believe this in your hearts, if you truly believe the great mission of our heavenly Father is to exalt and glorify his children and that he knows best how to do it, doesn't it make sense to embrace and follow his commandments, even the ones that appear difficult?

Should we not [00:52:00] cherish the light posts he has given that guide us through the darkness and the trials of mortality, they mark the way back to our heavenly home. Part of the our challenge is I think that we imagine that God has all of his blessings locked in a huge cloud up in heaven, refusing to give them un to us unless we comply with some strict paternalistic requirement he has set up.

But the commandments aren't like that at all. In reality, heavenly Father is constantly raining blessings upon us. It is our fear, doubt and sin that like an umbrella blocks these blessings from reaching us. His commandments are the loving instructions and the divine help for us to close the umbrella so we can receive the shower of heavenly blessings.

Whoa. Oh wow. I just wrote next to verse all four of those verses. This is what hit me, that fear, doubt, and sin are often what even keep us from gaining more knowledge and intelligence. Love that. That is so cool. So let's take that thought then and we're going to then plug it into Doctor and Covenant section 132, and we're gonna do that in the next segment.

Segment 5

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Okay. This has been such a good discussion, ladies. I listen everyone, I did not prepare these women with what they were gonna bring. This is so cool. In fact, I said to them in my original email, I want this just to be organic. And I just gave them some talking points and that was it. And it has turned out to be so good.

I could never in a million years have prepared that we would've talked about. And I love how you said it, and you started it beautifully, Andrea, by saying, we're gonna dial it back. Like we had to dial it back for the last four segments to talk about knowledge, obedience, agency bodies. I mean, it just has been such a perfect discussion leading up to section 132.

Because section 132 is the revelation on [00:54:00] marriage. The revelation on plural marriage. Let's be very clear about that. Yes, there are two separate parts in here, so we're not gonna conflate the two. What you wanna do, first and foremost, we're gonna have you label this section before we dive into it. So in section 132, here's what you wanna know, verses two through 32.

Now, the reason we start in two is because verse one is the question that Joseph Smith has. He's studying the Old Testament, he's working on his translation of the Bible, and he comes up to read about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob having multiple wives and concubines, and he wants to know like what is the deal with that?

And so the Lord's gonna to answer the question. He begins with his answer in verses two through 32. These verses are strictly talking about eternal laws and marriage. That's what you wanna label it. Eternal laws and marriage. And we're just saying plain marriage because how much do we love? In verse 15, where it says, if amen marry him, a wife.

Singular. There it is. Then bracket off verses 34 through 48. These are talking about plural marriage, a separate revelation. This was not given all at one time. Section 1 32 was not received in one sitting, so you need to know that also. So then in another revelation we get verses 34 through 48, which is about plural, marriage, and then verses 49 through 66.

These are verses given to Joseph and Emma on the practice of their marriage. So know that and when and when I learned that I read 49 through 66 with a different lens, I felt like I was like diving into a sacred revelation given to this couple for their scenario. And I read it with such sanctity and I just, I, I think section 1 3 2 is beautiful.

So before we get into all this stuff, I ask my guests to read section 132 verses one through 32 with the lens of [00:56:00] how does God want to exalt his children with this revelation on marriage? So go ladies, what did you find? So much? So, I wish you could see Andrea's face. Her eyes were so big and she just goes so much.

That was only true so much hit it. Well, we live in a time where everybody wants to go to a master's class. Everybody wants to, you know, learn from the best. Do this. Mm-hmm. Do that. And it's like, you are not. An eternal master's class until you are getting this section and you're taking it to the temple and you're being taught from heaven.

Oh, I you, that what it means to you. Like, that's the true masterclass. So if, if you have heartburn about anything in this section, it's time to take it to the Lord and it's time to take it to the Lord's house and prepare your heart so that you can be in his house. It, it changes who you are to be there and to start providing these ordinances for those that have passed on without them.

And doing that vicarious work prepares you, gives you angels to be in your attendance, gives you kind of, kind of the setup for. Hey, this is, this is Capstone principle. Okay. That both the being married for eternity, you know, 'cause we would teach this on the mission and people be like, no thank you. You know, like, listen, there's plenty of people in the church.

You think? No thank you at several times in our life. I'm just saying like, no, I had one, I had a friend one time that got in the biggest fight with her husband ever and she said the only thing holding this together are temple covenants. Right. He was, you know, tongue in cheek, but like, yeah. Well, going along with that, it's interesting that we're talking about how we're trying to see in these sections how God wants to exalt all of his children.

So go with me to the Old Testament where we are looking at Genesis chapter two, verse 18. And one of the [00:58:00] first kind of conversations we have between deity here in these verses are that it is not good for man to be alone. Mm-hmm. And. We, we kind of narrow that down and think it only belongs in like the relationship with marriage.

But what if that phrase is the summary of God's whole entire plan? What if he is saying, it is not good that you guys are alone. I want you to be able to come back and live with me. Mm-hmm. So let me give you companions all along the way. And so we're baptized and we actually choose through our moral agency a companion.

We choose the Holy Ghost and we choose him to help us see our weaknesses, to see where we're going wrong. We choose him to help us to submit to our father in heaven, our will to his. And then we go along through the covenant path as President Nelson has used that term. And we, we continue to choose companions.

When you go to the temple and you are endowed with power from on high, it's so that you have a more full. Kind of advantage to the spirit and to priesthood power. But then you also choose another companion. And this companion will also point out your weaknesses. This companion will also reveal unto you inadequacies and, and this companion is one that you've chosen for eternity, your spouse.

Mm-hmm. And everybody I've talked to who is married says, yep. A spouse really knows that it helps you to see things in yourself that you didn't necessarily know was a, a problem, but because you're trying to be one with this other person, you begin to see, oh, I need, I need to refine this a little bit. I need to do this a little bit better.

And, and so it's a beautiful image for me to think that one, God doesn't want us to be alone. That's not his plan. Two, we get to choose companions. And these companions eventually will lead us to our heavenly home, the companionship of our Heavenly Father and our heavenly mother [01:00:00] through. The companionship of our savior, Jesus Christ.

Yeah. And so when I think about the temple, like Andrea was saying, you need to take these to the temple. We go into the temple, we go, we make our way through this kind of pathway to the celestial room, which is in essence, this place where we become one with God. But then if you think about the ceiling rooms, which are normally in a temple on a higher level, even by like a step or two, not always, but most often symbolically, they're just on another level.

And it's this opportunity not just to commune with God, but to have experiences like God where you now understand a little bit more about how he deals with his children because you have children of your own. Mm-hmm. You understand a little bit more about truly being one with somebody and what that takes because that's the way he does things.

And so I love that even in this section, we can see him seeking to exalt each and every one of us. I wanna say I love everything Shauna says. She has the best breadth of the gospel. I've one of the dearest people, so just thank you Andrea. Thank you. When we are going over this, I, I do find two spiritual gifts.

Very helpful. There's the believing on those that know that Jesus is the Christ. Yes. And then actually knowing when we believe on those that know, we can kind of get through a little bit of the disconnect that we're feeling when we're reading some of these verses and we don't understand it. We can go to institute, we can go to seminary, we can, we can listen to this, this podcast, for example, and just get queen a little bit and, and then we can become that person that knows and understands.[01:02:00]

As, as that testimony builds and gets stronger, then, then we have a better foundation for some of the harder things that are gonna come. And it's a hard question he's asking at the beginning of the section. It's hard. Well, what do you make of the fact that he asked the question about Abraham and having concubines?

And the Lord doesn't even begin by answering that question with a plural marriage answer before he does anything he says in verse three. First of all, I just want you to prepare your heart to receive and obey the instructions that I'm about to give unto you. And remember, plural, marriage is not given at the same time as this instruction right here.

So first and foremost, the Lord's like, lemme just talk to you first and foremost about laws, keeping my laws, specifically the law of marriage, which is one man, one woman married to each other. What do you make of that answer by the Lord? I'm glad he doesn't shy away from it. And. To speak to all my friends out there who might be waiting for an eternal companion who might have had a, an eternal companion, disappoint them, who might have their heart hurt a little bit.

What I'm gonna say next might sound a little, uh, harsh, but hang with me. I'm glad that your heart hurts. Meaning to me that says you still are looking for the fulfillment, or you still have this desire to fulfill this law. Mm-hmm. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah. I think in the world today, people wanna shut their hearts off from hurt because it is hard.

It, it, it is painful. But I feel that it really shows the depth of a person who's saying, uh, my, my heart still wants to love and my heart still wants to move forward to this principle, even if it's not a possibility right at this moment. Or even if there've been some hard times. And so I am grateful.

Personally for my heart still hurting because to me that says, at least I feel for me that my heart is in the right place to then embrace [01:04:00] this, this law, and hopefully live it one day in its fullness. Right? So I'm grateful that the Lord is, is playing. Sometimes I love it when he says, you go ahead and be creative, Shauna, and do what you want.

Right? But then other times I'm very grateful that he is clear and he says, this is what it's going to take to move forward in this, this direction. Because I, I'm, I like that clarity to be able to say, okay, I can do that. Even though I can't do that right here and right now, I, I can prepare my mind and heart for that.

Oh, I thank you so much for explaining that and for enlightening us on I I think I absolutely agree with you. I'm glad the hearts hurt. It means you don't wanna keep that commandment. Very cool. Mm-hmm. In section 1 32, as we continue on, in verse four and verse six, it says, A new and everlasting covenant.

New and everlasting covenant. How do you describe this to your students? Because sometimes they're like, wait, what's new? What are we talking about here? And, and I think it's important for us to understand what the Lord's talking about When he says new and everlasting, what does it mean? Actually, I asked my students that one time, and we went into it.

We talked about how it's a new and everlasting covenant, and the same with baptism. It's a new and everlasting covenant when the new and everlasting covenant is the breadth of the ordinances of the gospel. And so this is just, baptism is just a portion of that temple. Marriage is, ceiling is a portion of that.

And so we talked about that for a minute, and then one of my students said, well, I always thought it was because it made you new. And I was like, oh my goodness. Yes. That is exactly it. It makes you a new person to enter into baptism. You become a new person. Mm-hmm. To enter into a marriage. You do. You and this person you've chosen, you have become a new person.

And I just love that simple answer, uh, which to me has become very profound. Oh, I like that. I'm gonna ask Andrea to apply that to her life. Andrea, you got [01:06:00] married older in life. How did marriage make you a new person? Sin? Well, I went from being able to make a decision to having to counsel on every little thing, you know, like I could not make a decision to save my life until I could counsel with my spouse about those matters and all of a sudden.

Not only did my decision decisions have a better breadth of, of understanding before I made them, but I literally couldn't feel the spirit to move forward without my spouse. And I couldn't do things singly anymore. And that was weird because, I mean, I was 36 when I married him, and I had made plenty of decisions and I, I just not just plenty of decisions.

Plenty of good decisions. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't making bad decisions and it just became a bit of a wrestle to, um, it learn how to explain my heart in a way that a man's brain understands it. Wow. That's like running a foreign language. And I just, I didn't, I didn't have that before. It was, it was, uh, something I felt stunted in.

You know, I, I just had kind of superficial relationships with the people around me, but there was a much deeper relationship being required and, and we're still working at that equality and that counseling and, and trying to get it to a celestial level. Mm-hmm. And one time my husband's like, I think you feel like I should have like an apostolic level of priesthood.

And I'm like, every man should have it, priesthood. Ah. And so, I mean, my expectations were really, I mean, he was fighting against a current that was like, pretty high. And, and to his credit, he was, he, he rose to it well, so. [01:08:00] Well, I think it's the beautiful, I like, uh, your answer so much. The, the concept of that, of, you know, counseling with each other and becoming more god-like in that aspect.

Isn't it incredible that in section 1 32, here it is talking about keeping God's laws, keeping the law of marriage specifically, and I love verse 24. Because as you are doing that with your spouse and you're obeying the s law of marriage, I love the promise and the blessing that this is eternal lives going to like, here's the goal, here's the the end game of why we're doing this.

To know the only wise and true God, Jesus Christ, whom he has sent, I am He receive, he therefore my law. And I apply this verse to my life because I once, when I was single and my older friends were getting married, I remember I had a friend that said to me, I'm gonna tell you right now, marriage is so great because even my worst day married is still better than my best day being single.

And then I got married. I'm like, you are. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I totally disagreed. I'm like, no, my best day being single was the best day ever. I, like Andrea said, I can make my own decisions, spend my own money. And as I've since thought about that concept, I feel like for me, the way I would say it is.

My worst day being single has prepared me for every day being married because my worst day being single always led me to Christ. That was the goal and had me on my knees asking for help, asking for answers, asking for guidance. And so that now in my marriage, I know that's my go-to that when counseling is hard, when all the aspects of this, when man marries a wife, it's going to be difficult.

Marriage is really hard and it's really great. And so verse 24, this is the eternal lives to know the only wise and true God, Jesus Christ. And that is the goal of the marriage. And I think that's what the Lord's teaching in Section 1 32 is Get married and come unto me. Come unto Christ, learn who he is.

You will learn who he is through being married and, [01:10:00] and I think that that is what I love about this section because the first things first is marriage. Get your foundation solid on that marriage before you go into this idea of plural marriage. 'cause that's a whole other thing. And so I, I, I think right there, God absolutely wants to exalt his children.

And he can do it through marriage. He can exalt you. I mean, the idea is, as a single woman, I don't want, you know, you're not out of the fray. You're not out of the running. Like he wants to exalt all of his children. So those of you who are married right now, and you're keeping that law, here's how we're gonna do this together.

And the goal is to turn to Christ. You know, and it goes right along with what you were saying in verse 20, when at the end of verse 20, it says, then they shall be Gods. Mm-hmm. As they have no end. And if you go back to section 76, I think it ties so much to this. It does. This wasn't a principle that just got handed to Joseph Smith.

This was coming on since the 1830s. Right. Uh, the first year after the church has been organized, and the Lord is starting to teach this, Joseph Smith received the Angel Moroni back when he was 14, and he, well, 17. And he, he starts to learn just through the prophet, I mean, through the Angel Moroni, that Elijah's going to come, that the keys of the ceiling power are going to be restored, that it is about families.

So in section 76, the same principle is taught as in section 1 32, verse 20. If you look in verse 58, wherefore as it is written, they are gods, this idea of us learning because we have chosen to enter into a covenant, not just with another person, but that covenant with God kind of president. I mean, elder Bedner has spoken of it as this triangle.

Mm-hmm. And I love how in the ceiling rooms of the temple, you have a, a husband and a wife who are going to make a covenant together, but then above them is this. Um, this grand chandelier and to [01:12:00] me that if you're looking at it from just a design perspective, that chandelier does not belong in that room.

It's far too big, but it represents, it represents that you're making this covenant with God. Oh, that's neat. Not just with the other person. And so you really are becoming like him. And then if you go to section 88, which is the next kind of pro, uh, line upon line that we get, it's in verses 1 0 6 and 1 0 7, where a similar thing is repeated, then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saint shall be billed with his glory and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

And then if you go to section 93, verse 20. If you shall keep my commandments, you shall receive of his fullness and be glorified in me as I am in the Father. Therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace like this, this process of Joseph even learning of what God has in store for all of his children.

And then you get those beautiful verses in section 1 32, particularly verse 20, where it says, we will be anointed. I mean, we will be sealed by one who has been anointed and then we shall be God's. What a beautiful thing to think that this is God's plan for us to not be. And I think it's so perfectly fitting that I have your opinion and your expertise and on and knowledge on these sections because when you read that there is an inheritance will be made equal with him, that's for all of his children.

Yeah. And one of the ways that he's made that available to all of his children is in section 1 32 verses 34 through 48. And we're gonna talk about those verses in the next segment.

Segment 6

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Shauna, [01:14:00] to start out this segment, let's go back to the scripture verse you shared with us in section 88 verses 1 0 6 through 1 0 7. Will you read those for us one more time? Yeah. I love these. Um, and again, another angel shall sound his Trump, which is the seventh angel saying it is finished, it is finished.

The Lamb of God half overcome and trodden the wine press alone. Even the wine press of the fierceness of the wrath of almighty God. And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might and the saints shall be filled with his glory and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

Okay? I wanted you to read that because we're talking about this idea that we will receive an inheritance and be made equal with him. Now, how in the world is that possible if you're single? Because we teach, you've gotta be married, and if you wanna be in the highest group of the celestial kingdom, and there's all these qualifiers for that, and then I love section 132, go to verses 34 through 48 because now the Lord presents a way, and this is where I feel like Andrea and I fit into the story because, and Andrew, both of us married widowers.

I feel like the Lord's like, oh, I have a really great plan for you. Don't worry about it. Because one of the things we've often taught, and Shania and Andrea, you both know this, the Early Saints were what are called millennialist. They were thinking Jesus was coming tomorrow. Like, yes, we gotta get ready.

He's coming. They spoke of it so often. Absolutely. I mean, even Joseph Smith asked the question, look, when are you coming? And the Lord was like, listen, if you live to the, this certain age, you know, I don't, you love how the Lord's like, all right, calm down. And, and that's in section one 30. He says, if you live to be 80, 85 years old, then you're gonna see me come again.

I just love that. Like they were literally that verse right there proves to us millennialist, when is Jesus coming? And as a result, when they learned about this concept of sealing families and people and everybody together, they. We're sealing everyone, women to women, men to men. They actually had a thing called adoption [01:16:00] ceilings because they hadn't learned the concept of being able to do work for your family members who have died yet as far as like the covenants go of the endowment.

And so they were being sealed to friends who had already received that covenant. It's the coolest thing. Look it up. Adoption ceilings. It's, there's a whole article written about it in the gospel topics, essays. So they were just quickly doing this, and then the Lord's like, okay, let's just dial it back.

Right, Andrea, let's dial it back. Let's learn some more eternal truths about this concept, and let's talk about plural marriage. And so, Andrea, teach us a little bit about this and your perspective on these verses. I want to go to some foundational truths in section 1 0 1 verses three and four. The Lord's, of course, talking to his saints, and he says, yes, I will own them and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come and make up my jewels.

Therefore they must needs be chastened and tried even as Abraham who was commanded to offer up his only son. Okay. Abrahamic tests. That's what this was for many, many people. And it was an Abrahamic test. Uh, Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses said that he desired to be the corpse that he went to a funeral and he saw the corpse and he's like, ma'am, that looks like a lot better idea, you know, than having to take on this principle of plural marriage.

So understand that those that were asked to live it, it was hard, it was a hard principle and it required the heart, it requi required complete trust. It re required receiving confirmations and revelation. And, and when I talked before about having the gift to know and to believe on those that know, it opened up because they believed in Joseph.

They believed that he was a prophet and, and they believed that God was speaking to them. So they had to take this revelation seriously when it was presented to them. Mm-hmm. [01:18:00] And even though it was very difficult and heart wrenching, it was their Abrahamic test. And as, as we all are going through a different Abrahamic test, this is a great one to relate to because we get some really exalting principles and some amazing examples of faith in these people and, and what they were able to do.

I, I'm just so very proud of them and what they were able to accomplish. Now I come from polygamous ancestry, it's in my blood. And when, when I was first taught these things, I didn't have a problem with it. And I know some people will be mad at me for saying that, but I never had a problem with this because I had perfect faith.

God would not ask anything of us. That wasn't for our ultimate happiness. I knew that truth. And so because that it could connect really, really personally to it. Okay. It does change when you're asked to actually live it a little bit, you have to get a deeper understanding of it. You have to understand for yourself, get your own witness that this is what God's plan was for your life.

And then when it's revealed to you, you're one of the ones that know. Mm-hmm. But I wanna tell you about Kate Holbrook. She helped me to see, and it's in Yes. Comes. It's in the Come Follow Me section. You need to watch that video. Yes, that video. Because I always wondered, because I had this different testimony.

It was gift. It wasn't something I had to ask for. It just came with me. But I always wondered what the other one looked like. The ones that believed on those that knew and lived this practice like. Historically getting an understanding of it. And Kate Holbrooke was the first person I ever heard declare it.

And you, I love that to see that video, because that was when I felt it. I was like, that's the other testimony. She's got it. Like [01:20:00] she dis more testimony powerfully of, of this, this thing. And you know what? You can have 'em both, it's fine. But unless you're called to live it, it, it isn't required of you to know on this one.

Don't get caught up in the worry and the fret of it. Thinking best is your eternal. I had so many women afraid to die because they were afraid that her husband was gonna be sealed to five women on the other side because of the way that we taught it. And I apologize for teaching it wrong. No, no. I think we all missed up and we, we don't know.

And I, I love that, you know, president Oaks gave a talk where he's saying. He's quoting an experience where, where he's talking about children of the first spouse being concerned about the second ceiling. Mm-hmm. And, and he said, you're worried about the wrong problem. Mm-hmm. You know, he's quoting this experience.

Okay. He says, you're worried about the wrong problem. You need to get yourself there. And then the relationships will be more wonderful than you can imagine. And, and it's going back to think celestial, letting God prevail, like all of the counsel that President Nelson is those preparatory steps to getting our heart into a position where we can receive it.

But I did have to get a witness. I did have to know that when my husband came to me. Okay. My family fasted and prayed for me every fast Sunday. Please help Andrea get married. Please help Andrea get married. Please help Andrea get married. It was like the constant for years and years and years and years.

They would fast for me. But I think in preparatory steps for me getting married, all of them became okay with the kind of marriage that would be presented to me. How did you get a testimony of it? Because Andrea sealed to a man who's also sealed to his first wife. Yes. So in essence, this is your Abrahamic test.

How, how did you get a testimony of it? Uh, like I said, I had the, I already had the gift [01:22:00] to know that this was a correct principle, so the principle is fine. And, um, when, when it was presented to me, I'm like, mm-hmm. This is why I know, like, it, it started to be like puzzle pieces coming in and, and completing this picture that had been line upon line being built in my heart.

Now I did also need that testimony of those that lived it historically, and I did need to understand why it was essential in our day. And Elda Bednar helps. And, uh, and others can help beforehand, but I think this is like the most recent discussion about how the dispensation of the fullness of times had the requirement of teaching every true principle that had been taught in any other dispensation.

And he says it like this, and this is in the times of restitution of all things. Uh, he says, in response to a sincere prayer, God the Father in Jesus Christ. His son, Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph and inaugurated the restitution of all things as foretold in the Bible. In this vision, he learned that following the depth of the original apostles, Christ's New Testament church was lost from the earth.

Joseph Smith would be instrumental in restoring, once again the doctrine, the authority, and the covenants and ordinances of the Savior's ancient church. So living in the fullness of times, everything had to be restored. Every principle and practice that had ever happened in any time has to come about in ours.

And things that have never yet been revealed have to come in ours because that's what the dispensation of the fullness of times is. So this is one of those principles. It had to be lived because it was right when Abraham received it. It was right when others received it and, and David, and he says that nothing had he sent except for in the case where it wasn't given of him.

Mm-hmm. And he's told that. [01:24:00] Mm-hmm. So. For me, I had to have this intellectual kind of backdrop that really helped. And then I had to go to the temple and I go, okay, here is what's being presented to me. I think that this is why all of these puzzle pieces have been coming into my life. I, I know you've been preparing me and I feel like this is right.

Is it right? And I did get a witness and a strong witness and mm-hmm. It needed to be strong because the battle was not in the witness getting, it was in the what would happen next and, and being able to blend a family with that element in it. Being able to teach principals because she's here in my heart, every day,

every day, ever. God.

And it's different. It's different to be. In a relationship where you share children and you share the responsibility and the covenant of being their covenant parent to me, not be the one that gave birth to them, but you by covenant have the responsibility towards them, and you need to do what a mother would do for them and be there for them, even if they don't want you.

And, and it's like being nanny mc fee. It's like, as soon as you want me, yeah, then I have to go away. But like, it's just, honestly, I think it, it is a hard thing. But we have other people in the church. We're not alone in this. We got Sister Kristen Oaks, we've got Sister Nelson. You know, we have a lot of women that have been invited into this, this ceiling that is going to have a plural connection and listen in the next slide.

We don't know how it's gonna work out in the other life. We only know how it works out in this mortal world right here. So it doesn't make sense in our brains. I always, I have have to think of that, but what I love is going back to that section [01:26:00] that Shauna shared with us. But because of this law, for me who's living it, I will receive an inheritance and be made equal with him.

Good enough. That's all I need. That's great. If that's what this law allows for me. Thank you Heavenly Father, for having a contingency plan for the Andrea Lindsays and the Tammy Usat Halls and the Kristen Oaks and the Wendy Watson Nelsons in the world. Because it's not a law that everyone's going to be required to live.

Let me be clear. This is not a law that every woman in our church will live. So just everyone can breathe easy. You don't have to worry that in the next life your husband's gonna start getting sealed. Other, we don't know how it's all gonna work out. I just know for me in this world right now, I get to receive an inheritance and be made equal to him because the goal is to be sealed back to the family of Christ.

We are millennialist, we really are. Our people are looking forward to the day when Christ comes so that when he does, we can say, okay, I get it. I get everything. That, and things you've shared with us in section 76, Shauna is so appropriate. Studying section 76 with 1 32 makes so much sense. I love that you've connected it many times to that, so thank you for that.

I love what you shared about elder bed NA's quote Andrea, and that is found in section 1 32 verse 45, that idea that the Lord will restore all things and make no unto you all things in due time. And so that I also have to sit with like everything going made known when it needs to be. I'm okay right now and I'm gonna focus on what's important, which is my relationship that I'm currently in.

But how great to have a God, you'll never, I mean, most people don't meet others that have a testimony of plural marriage, but I'll bear my testimony of it till the day I die. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to receive an inheritance and be made equal with him. That is pretty awesome. I get everything.

I think I may have raised my hand in that lesson in the spirit world that we learn about in section 1 38 and said, what about me? I'm wife number two, you know, and God's like, I got a plan. It's gonna work out fine. So, oh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Yes. Shauna, can I just add a couple of things here? One, um, there are people who.

Have [01:28:00] testimonies as you both have spoken of and have, have sought the revelation that needed to be there. For that. When we encounter friends of other faiths or family members or whoever who may have questions about this subject, there are so many great resources. Come Follow me, has a number of 'em. Our gospel library has a ton, but we can love and listen and really humble ourselves to try to under understand where they're coming from, the problem or concern that they might be having, and we can help them have a better view of what historically we know and we can help them separate what we don't know.

That's always a good question to ask. Yeah. Have we gone back and actually done some research so we can say, what do I know? Like really what can I cite and see resources on? And what has just maybe been passed around about this subject that perhaps we need to filter? And, and then we, like both of you have spoken about, make some personal peace with the past.

There are plenty of opportunities in the Joseph Smith papers and on our gospel library where we can look at even women's writings about their thoughts on plural marriage. It, it's kind of less helpful when we say, oh, well we don't believe that. Or you can just lean on my testimony, which I know I've said to people in the past when really we can help.

We can be there by their side and help them work through whatever angst they might have about any particular subject in church history, because we do have scriptures, but we also have so many historical resources to look at and be able to say, what can I learn from those who have lived it? What can I learn from their testimonies and how they gained those testimonies?

Yes. How do I consider the historical context compared to the doctrine, which you and well, we have all kind of discussed here at the beginning [01:30:00] of section one three, that monogamy really is God's standard for marriage and then at certain times he has commanded that adoption that you were speaking of, or, um, plural, marriage or even the cessation of plural marriage.

It's important for us to be able to work through historical things to really help say, well, this is what I've heard in the past. I don't know what references I have that really back that up, and so how much weight of truth am I putting on that? Have I applied the law of witnesses? Are there other things that can back up what I love that has been passed around because.

I do feel that some of the fear or angst that comes with plural marriage is because of things that have circulated that are not entirely true. Yes. And so being able to just develop some thinking skills about these things and then take the historical resources for what they are. I did not live it back then with Joseph Smith.

I do not understand all that they went through, but I'm not going to invalidate their experience or their trial or their learning revelation, simply their revelation because I don't understand it. Right. Yeah. So those are just some of my thoughts as we ask girl marriage. Love that. Shauna, thank you so much for ending this whole discussion with that 'cause you're absolutely right studying it out and I, I think it's so important to lean on the revelation these people received who live this law that's so important to read their stories and their testimonies.

So that is awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You guys, this was such a great discussion. Wow. I think we have seen absolutely throughout this whole thing that God really does want to exalt all of his children. And both of you came so well prepared. You, you understood the assignment and you did it. It was hard.

But thank you for doing it and thank you. Come follow me writers. What a great way. It was a great assignment. Great assignment. Okay, so gather your thoughts and tell me what is the eternal truth you learned from today's discussion? What's something that stood out to you or that you'll take away from our discussion?

God [01:32:00] is so good. He's so good to us in our individual circumstances, the testimonies that both of you have born about your circumstances. Like how, how good is our God? He not only tells us of the laws and commandments that he has, but prepares ways for us to be able to live those things. Yeah. So grateful for that.

Because this topic is so looming and large, I just, it's so hard to just say one thing that, that, that we are gonna take away. So the thought that has reoccurred to me is that it's okay to have a question. Mm-hmm. Because questions spark revelation. Mm-hmm. It's okay to have heartache as Shauna said, because it shows that we still want to follow the Lord even when it's hard.

And it's okay to, to be single longer than we want to, as Tammy was talking about, because there we've learned as you learned that Jesus was the answer, then he's the answer now. And so there's just so much to try and sum up. But I feel that there isn't a question, there isn't a concern that our heavenly father, 'cause he's our father doesn't care about answering for us, and he's given how to get those answers and he's laid it all out.

Mm-hmm. It's, it's possible in his house to get all the answers we need. Mm, thank you. Thank you to both of you. Uh, for me it was our discussion on God and Jesus Christ. Having a body of flesh and bones and the concept and idea of the added upon means that we got a body and that it's glorious. Then connecting it to your ideas, Andrea, of obedience and intelligence and that that's the second estate.

And if we can do that, we're gonna have even more glorious bodies. And so that was a fun discussion. I think that was just one of the [01:34:00] best examples I have seen of people coming together, sharing truth and being enlightened just like the scripture teaches at will. Like, you know, just we really were enlightened and we learned from one another and that was really awesome.

So thank you for coming prepared with your thoughts and oh, thank you for this discussion today. I love you both. So good to see. I love you too. Well, what eternal truth did you learn? Because there were so many in this episode. Go join our group on Facebook or Instagram to share what you've learned. You can even ask questions, and those are so fun to answer.

And then at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we post a question from this discussion. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson. Share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway because it's where we have links to the references that we've used today.

And those are, there were some great quotes today as well as a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It is written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our fabulous study group participants were Shauna Siemens and Andrea Lindsay.

And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember. You really are God's favorite.