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Segment 1

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At the very back of your doctrine and covenants, after section 138, you will see official declaration number one and official declaration number two. Now, what is a declaration in this church and what do these official declarations declare? Today's discussion is going to answer those questions, and my guests are the perfect people who have very fitting answers.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description that will explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend, Lisa Emmett from Midway Utah.

Okay, listen. I'm really sorry to everybody at the dainty pair where I was because I accidentally knocked over the entire olive oil display. Sorry friends. Thanks for being so nice to me. Lisa. As wonderful as all that God revealed through Joseph Smith, the restoration was not completed in Joseph's lifetime through prophets.

After him, we have received ongoing revelation and the truth of an ongoing restoration became very prevalent after the death of Joseph Smith. As revelations about changes to the policies and practices of the church were received. Well, I want you all to know that this week's discussion centers on ongoing restoration and to quote through the ninth article of Faith, we believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

So in your scriptures, or if you're using the gospel app, you wanna go to section 138. After section 138, you're gonna see two official declarations. Now in the church, we have declarations and proclamations. So what's the difference? A declaration, it's a formal scriptural change that often addresses specific historical issues.

A proclamation is a powerful doctrinal message for all people reaffirming core beliefs and. This is fun. Next week's episode is gonna be an special [00:02:00] episode discussing all of the proclamations that the church has ever received. Fun fact, there's six of them. You guys are gonna love that episode. But now going back, okay.

Official declaration number one. This is what we're gonna start with today. It is the official ending of plural marriage. Now official declaration number two then extends priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy men regardless of race. These declarations are examples of ongoing revelation which brought about change.

And here's the really cool thing, is that the revelation and change is still happening. In an October 30th, 2018 interview, president Russell M. Nelson said his famous quote, we're witnesses to a process of restoration. If you think the church has been fully restored, you're just seeing the beginning, there is more to come.

Wait till next year and then the next year eat your vitamin pills, get your rest. It's going to be exciting. So we are going to begin this episode by discussing official declaration number one, and I could not be more thrilled to introduce you to our guest who knows all things Wilfred Woodruff and official declaration number one, Christie Wheelwright Taylor.

Hello Christie. Hi, Tammy. Thanks for having me. Oh, listen, I knew we wanted to have you on months ago when you were on the podcast way, way back at the beginning of the year, and I just said, can I just plug you in for official declaration number one? And you were so gracious to say yes. Oh, this'll be fun.

Yep. Let's do it. Now, I just have to say this because Christie. Well, first of all, Christie, why would I invite you to come tell us what you've been involved in over the last five years of your life? I'm, I'm on the Board of directors for the Wilfred Woodruff Papers Foundation, which runs the Wilfred Woodruff Papers, um, which is, uh, digitizing and publishing and indexing and making searchable all the Wilfred Woodruff documents, which right now is.

Like 48,000 pages. Wow. What on the, on the Wilford wood. So it's wilford wood if papers.org and you can go and see them all and you can search them by people or place. And the people in there are [00:04:00] now linked to family search. So you can like see where they are on in your family tree and you can search topics and all sorts of great things.

There's a lot of information on there. That's really amazing. This is a really interesting and and unique opportunity that we have to learn about Wilford Woodruff, and I know that many people have been paying a beautiful price to give us access to all of this information. So I am really looking forward to this.

And I heard about it probably right the very beginning when it was getting started. I had no idea that this was taking so long to do it, but 48,000, I guess it would take that long. Yeah, he was a, he was a, he was a big record keeper, so about 60, 60 plus years of records. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, and the very cool thing too with Christie is for those of you that have ever listened to our unnamed women in scripture at podcast, you can find that on Apple and Spotify, it's free for everybody.

Christie's also my guest to talk about Wiler Woodruff's wife, Phoebe Woodruff. So you want to go hear about that? Because listen, I know I've been talking about unnamed women for many, many years, but this lady. I had no idea how incredible she was. So go listen to that episode. You're gonna love hearing about her.

It's so much fun. Okay, so we're gonna dive into official declaration number one. And Christie, before we even get into this official declaration, I want you to tell us a little bit like, here's my question. You spent the last five years learning about Wilford Woodruff. Mm-hmm. What do you love about him? Um.

He has a lot of personality. I mean, and I, you get that when, when he has so many pages of documents that you can read, like journals and letters and all that. He just, he's really overflowing with personality, which makes him just very real and come alive. Um, but he's funny and he is just, he's determined and he is got so much conviction, just he [00:06:00] is.

He just is ready to go. He's always ready to go. Like, put me in, coach. I'm ready to go. Wow. What a compliment to say if someone put me in, coach, I'm ready to go. Well, and that he would've needed for what he was about to come up against as a prophet, especially with a festival declaration, number one. So let's go into a little bit about the life.

What do you want us to know about Wilfred Woodruff before we can even get into this official declaration? Well, he, he was born in 1807 and he didn't join the church until, you know, he was maybe a little bit, little bit of a late comer. He joined the last day of 1833. So the church was already started getting started in Kirtland.

Um, and he went to Kirtland almost immediately. So by 1834, he was in Kirtland. And then he joined Zion's camp within about three months. He was in, in Zion's camp. Um, and then he went on a series of missions. Uh, one before he got married, and then he took his wife Phoebe on his next mission to Maine. Um, kind of like a honeymoon mission.

And he just, he was a great missionary for a lot of years, and I think a lot of people know about his mission to England with the quorum of the 12. Uh, you know, you can read about that a little bit in doctrine. Kevin's one 18 when he, can we pause for one second? Yep. Because Honeymoon Mission, I'm sorry, and we talked about that on the Phoebe Woodworth uh, episode, but did you guys hear that?

Like they got married and went on a mission for their honeymoon about a month later? Yeah. What. Call it the honeymoon mission. There you go. Okay. I call it the honeymoon mission. Sure. I would too. Um, okay. But eventually he had, he was married to Phoebe in, uh, 1837, and he eventually had nine more wives and 34 children.

13 of them died before adulthood. Oh. So he had. He had a lot of kids and a lot of family to consider. And because he was such a good record keeper, he had a [00:08:00] lot of family history. I mean, he, you can read in his journals, he diagrams out all of his family history. I mean, he founded the Utah Neurological Society.

He was an assistant church historian and then a church historian. Um, a lot of what we recognize as how we practice in the temple comes from him. Mm-hmm. So he just was. Uniquely qualified for temple work and redeeming the dead and family history work. Wow. So let's, knowing that about him then, and we're gonna talk about redeeming the dead and, and all of that, that he, 'cause I asked you the question, why did you feel.

Why do you think he felt so strongly about Work for the Dead, which just the fact that he lost 13 children answers that question for me. But before we can get even get into that, let's get into the official declaration. Like, give us some pointers, maybe teach us some things that you think we need to know about this declaration, Wilfred Woodruff, and then we'll get into his, his work for the Dead and that.

Oh my gosh, that's, I, I, I'm fascinated with that whole thing, but let's do this and then we can talk about that. Yeah, well, official declaration one, which he called the manifesto. You know, it wasn't official declaration one during his time it was, it was just after he had. Finally organized his first presidency, which took almost two years, and he needed to get that done so that he could move on to pl uh, plural marriage, because this was getting to be a bigger and bigger, you know, hot topic.

And we all know if you read the official decoration, you know that the temples were in. Peril. And so how are they gonna keep the temples? Yeah. Can they keep the temples and plural marriage at the same time? Now, I had not realized that. And I love that you put this in the notes that you sent to me, and then I went and read the official declaration.

Mm-hmm. And you read the official declaration, but what you wanna read is the excerpts from three addresses. President Wilford Woodruff regarding the manifesto. And if you do you read that and I'll just count the paragraph. It's paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4. The [00:10:00] fifth paragraph, it starts with, the question is this, and I highlighted right here.

'cause he's talking about the cost of the confiscation and loss of all temples like that. I did not realize that was really what this was about, was the ability you either practice plural marriage, or you're gonna lose. Completely temples, and then he answers it later. He says, if we had not stopped it, this is in the next paragraph.

If we had not stopped it, you would've had no use for any of the men in this temple at Logan, for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. And he's giving this address in Cash Valley to the people the Logan Temple's built. Yeah. So this is later. This is, I mean, yeah, Logan Temple is built, Logan Temple's dedication is, uh, 1884.

Mm-hmm. But he's, but he's speaking after, you know, he is speaking after the, uh, manifesto and it takes him, yeah, he's about the next year convincing people. We really did have to do this. Yes. This was really important because either way, we were not gonna be able to do. We were not gonna be able to continue plural marriage because they were gonna take the temples and then we wouldn't be able to perform any kind of marriages, or they were not going to take the temples and we would have to give up plural, marriage.

So there wasn't really a way around it by this point, because the Supreme Court had finally made the decision that mm-hmm they were gonna take away the right to vote. They weren't gonna let people immigrate to the state. They were gonna confiscate the temples. And if there are no temples, then what is the point of the restoration?

Yeah. And I think the thing that was so interesting that you taught me in the readings you sent to me were he's, he had gone to the Lord with a question, which was, how do we save plural marriage? And that the reality was, is he said, I had to change my question. It wasn't so much about plural marriage anymore.

The Lord redirected me. Because then my question became, how do we save the temples? And I'd love to know like, what do you think that teaches us about Wilfred Woodruff, that he was able to, I mean, what's the lesson in that? Um. Well, I think there are a lot of, there are a lot of lessons there. [00:12:00] First of all, he just, he knew, he knew that he wanted to do whatever God wanted him to do.

Mm-hmm. So whatever the answer was to whatever the question was, he was gonna do it. He just had so much conviction. So he just had to ask the right question, which is, you know, what you just said. What, what is the right question here? How do we save Temple Ordinances? Full stop. And he knew how to receive personal revelation.

He had been practicing for all of these years on how to receive personal revelation and revelation for the church. And once he knew how to do that, he always did it. There was no wishy-washy, no waffling. I mean, he was. He was all systems go. You know, once he had an answer to that and he didn't just want to receive personal revelation for himself, he wanted everybody else to receive.

The personal revelation. I mean, it was the same when they instituted polygamy from the very beginning. Everybody was supposed to get a testament of it for themselves. I mean, the prophet Joseph Smith was really clear. You need to pray for yourself and see if you can keep this commandment, and if this is, you know, if you feel like you can enter into this and the same one it was ended, you need to pray about this.

Mm-hmm. And get your own witness that this is the correct path. I had never considered that before because when we view this through our 2025 goggles, we're like, well, of course they wanted to end it. Who would wanna stay in this? But from what I'm understanding, it was difficult. Many people wanted to defend this practice and not get rid of it.

I mean, I think when people ask me about plural marriage, my, my first answer is, it was hard when it started and it was hard when it ended. Wow, that's good way to say it. I mean, it's just wanting to do what the Lord wanted them to do, and it was time. Well, and, and to, to your point, the way that this ends, this, this manifesto in Cache Valley, I really like how he ends by [00:14:00] in the very last paragraph says, I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider.

I feel like that's his invitation. Like, I need you to get your own revelation that this is something that we really have to have ended. I'm giving you all the reasons why, but now I need you to go and. I think that would be so hard. I know you got Revelation to practice it now I need you to get Revelation to end it.

But I love how he, how they present it in general conference because, and I think this is so. Meaningful because the first thing they do before they, and, and the manifesto had already been printed in the Deseret News, so people had already seen it, but they take it to general conference for, you know, ratifying vote.

But before they read it in conference, they read the articles of Faith. Think of article of Faith. Number 12. We believe in being subject to king's, president's, rulers, magistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. So they read that right before they read the manifesto. Because everybody knows that the law is on them, you know, for this.

Yeah. And then George Buchanan introduces the manifesto and reads it out. And then Lorenzo Snow moves to ratify it, and when he does, he says, I move that recognizing Wilfred Woodruff is the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the only man on earth at the present time who holds the keys of the ceiling ordinances.

We consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the manifesto. So they're setting up that. You know, this is where the keys are. Wilfred Woodruff has the authority to do this. Even though at the time Joseph Smith had the authority to enact, you know, plural marriage. Now Wilfred Woodruff is the prophet who can receive the new revelation.

And was it at this same conference that you said the Articles of Faith were presented as Yes. Just before they read? Yeah, just before they read. I mean the manifesto, that must have been the biggest general conference of our time. They just, it's like we, we, you know, we freak out when we get a new temple announced, which is such a big deal.

But I would love to have [00:16:00] been around when all the members left talking about Articles of Faith, this new thing and manifesto and how it always declared in one conference. That's amazing. Well, I, do you think they'd heard the Articles of Faith before? You know, because they, the Wentworth letter and all of that was from Joseph.

Sure, sure. Sure. But if, but to sandwich the manifesto in between reading all of the articles of Faith and then reminding them all, remember who has the keys. Yep. And you know, I mean, it's like, there's, there's the quote from, uh, Ezra Benson, that the most important prophet for us is the living prophet. Yeah.

You know, so they're just reminding him, everybody, this is where, this is where the priesthood keys are. And to read Article of Faith number nine in this meeting. With the manifesto? Yeah, the whole thing. I mean, that just puts the Articles of Faith in a whole new perspective for me to read those before something majors announced and they didn't know how it was gonna work.

Right. I mean, there was a second manifesto in 1904 when they really, I. This is how we're really ending this. But this one when people were still a little unsure, like, well, do I still go home with, you know, where you know all of that, and it makes you think that maybe where was the conviction? You know?

Mm-hmm. But Wilford just was so. Sure of everything as he did it. So, pre manifesto, um, about five years earlier, he had said I would rather be shot dead in the streets or struck by lightning than, than to Deseret my children, break my covenants, turn my wives into the street and Deseret them with whom I have made sacred covenants.

Dis deny my religion and dishonor God. So, you know, that's like serious talk, right? Yeah. But then after the manifesto, he says, I would've let all the temples go, gone to prison with my apostles and head of families, allowed the church property to be taken, suffered death if God had not commanded me to do what I did.

So he's, I mean, he's, he likes a little bit of hyperbole. It's true. But, um, so do I. That's why I love him. But there's no doubt that he was. He was just [00:18:00] certain, you know, he was certain when he was practicing it and he was certain when he ended it. Yeah. And that, I think that's probably what the people needed to hear.

I mean, if he had shown the least bit of doubt mm-hmm. They wouldn't have, they, they would've maybe felt the same. But he's an, he's an easy one to follow when he speaks so boldly because he's so convincing and he's so sure of what the Lord has taught him how to do. I feel like Wilfred Woodruff was definitely a profit for change.

A lot of things happened under his tutelage, under his seership, and one of the things that strikes me the most was his love for and his strong feelings about work for the dead. So tell us a little bit about that too, because we just can't end here with manifesto. I think it's important for us to acknowledge what he did when it comes to doing work for the dead, um, and the changes he made.

Well, one thing I really think about Wilfred is that he was a problem solver. He just, if there was a problem, he was gonna figure out how to fix it. So for example, in 1877, you know, he was the first president of the St. George Temple, which is the first temple in this dispensation where you could do all of the work for the dead.

Yes. Um. Let's just make sure everyone understands that because one of the things I loved learning this year in Doctrine and covenants is we used to practice a thing called adoption ceilings because they did not practice doing work for your family members yet, so you needed to be sealed to someone. So you would find someone who'd already accepted the gospel in this life, had done all of the work, and then you could be sealed to them.

So you'd find a buddy. Like, I'm like, sign me up, seal to my best friends. Yes, please. So you do these adoption ceilings and then the revelation came, oh wait. Now we can do work for our family members who have deceased. And then the St. George temple is the first temple where we can do all of the work. All of the work.

Baptism, endowment, initiatory, ceiling in one place. Yeah. So two big revelations about, uh, temple work come from [00:20:00] Wilford Woodruff. So the first one was, um, 1877, and that was when. It. He had thousands of names of his own family names that he wanted to do, and so he goes to the Lord and this is just before his birthday, and he really loved to celebrate his birthday.

He really loved, loved this man his birthday, love him. He really did. And so he, for his birthday, he wants to do all of his temple work. In, in the St. George temple, and the temple was dedicated, partially dedicated in January. So his birthday's March 1st, so this is about a month after the partial dedication of the temple.

And he says, I began to reflect, how can I redeem my dead? I have some 3000 names of the dead who have been baptized, and how can I get endowments for them? While praying to the Lord to show me how to redeem my dead, the spirit of God rested upon me and the voice of the spirit said to me, go and call upon the sons and daughters of Zion in St.

George to come to the temple of the Lord and get their endowments for your dead, and it shall be acceptable to me. And then he says, this filled my soul with joy. And I saw that it opened a field as wide as eternity for the salvation of our dead and the redemption of man that we might magnify our calling to Savior on Mount Zion.

And I just love that image. Wow. Of the expansiveness of it. Yeah. I mean, because if you can only do work for your own family members. Some people will, might, will get theirs done. Other people will never get it done, you know? Wow. How awesome For the sweet women who approach you in the dressing room and say, do you have a name?

Take my name. Yes. You take the name from my family member. Like, thank you Wilford Woodruff, because now we can do work for other people's dead. That's amazing. Right. So that's a great, I love that one. And I just love the imagery of, you know, uh, open to field as wide as eternity. Oh, beautiful. But then in 1894, which is just a few years after the manifesto, that's when he gets the revelation for intergenerational ceilings.

So until then, they're doing adoptions, like you said. So that's why so many people are [00:22:00] adopted into. Like Joseph Smith line or Hebrewish c Kimball's line because they wanna Sure. Fire. Yeah. Line to slash kingdom. 'cause they don't really know yet how it works. Like, well, what if they don't accept the gospel on the other side?

Am I stuck then? You know. Um, but Wilfred Wood in 1894 has the revelation on. Intergenerational ceilings. So you're just, you're the way we do it now mm-hmm. You're sealed to your mom and their mom and their dad and you know, in a straight line. Mm-hmm. But it's more than just a straight line because, you know, think of your cousins and think of your, it's really more like a web, you know, you're connected straight back, but you're also then connected to everybody else.

Mm-hmm. Which is just such a beautiful image of that's how we get to universal. You know, redemption, universal salvation because we can now do all of that family history work and connect people with those welding links and record their names in heaven. It, it really is the family of Christ. Yeah, and, and when you look at church history, what you had taught earlier, you can see why so many people wanted and were sealed to Joseph Smith in Brigham, like just a ceiling.

Yeah. Because it really was that idea of like, the higher up I am then I'm gonna for if I could be sealed to Joseph Smith for sure. Highest degree. And And like you said, we didn't really know. They didn't really know. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for Wilford Drr to say, okay, it doesn't matter. Like Yeah. A prophet versus, I just love that concept, like you just need to be sealed back to the family of Christ.

Yeah. Whatever that looks like for you. Well, and this is also when you get Wilford Woodruff and then later Lorenzo snows saying. There's almost nobody on the other side who won't accept the gospel. Oh, wow. Once they see it for what it is. Yeah. And they know so much more. You know, I had a professor at BYU who called it Millennial University.

You know, you just, you, you know so much more that most people will accept the gospel on the other side. And then you also get into how beautiful the gift of agency [00:24:00] is, because that means we believe in agency. In this life and on the other side of the veil. So speaking of that then, when you said majority of people will accept it, tell us about some very specific people who accepted it that came to Wilfred Woodruff.

I love this story. So I think a lot of people know that, um, when Wilfred was working in the St. George Temple, this is. August, 1877, the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him. And, um, he tells this story several times, but um, he told it the first time in September, 1877, in his journal, he said, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them.

Said they, you have had the use of the endowment house for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, and we remained true to it and were faithful to God. Wow. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights.

So it sounds like they were kind of hounding him like Yeah. We're gonna do this, you know, and if you look at his journal on August 24, first, 1877, you can see he lists them all out. All the people. And it's not just a signers of the Declaration of Penance, it's like mm-hmm. I mean, it's. All the presidents except for three.

And those were kind of the ones who had ticked off, you know, who had not been supportive of the Mormons. So Van Buren and Buchanan, I was, has their work been done? Do we know? I love that. It's like, except for Van Buren and Buchanan, has their work been done? Yeah, I, I, I, I assume so by now, but I don't know.

I mean, Columbus, John Wesley and then he had. Lucy Bigelow Young do the work for 70 eminent women. So like Jane Austen, Elizabeth Barrett, Browning, you know, some of our favorites, and Martha Washington and all of her family Maria Antoinette. Oh my goodness. And you know, we don't follow that practice today.

Now we're told not to do the work for celebrities and all of that, but back then it was a, it was a good reminder that everybody will [00:26:00] receive. The blessings. Mm-hmm. Whether whenever you're born, you're gonna have the chance to accept the gospel and receive the ordinances. Wow. That's incredible. Can we find that on the Wilford Woodruff papers?

Yep. If you look, uh, if you look in his journal, you can search by date in his journal, and if you look up August 21st, 1877, you'll see a couple of pages of. He just lists 'em all out right there in his journal. These are all the people I did. That is gonna be so fun. I can't wait. And you know, in the St.

George Temple for people who've been there, there is a painting of Wilfred Woodruff receiving this revelation from the founding fathers. Yeah, the original painting that was done. Just ask, when you go to the St. George Temple, say, can you show me? He's standing there talking to George, George Washington. In the painting.

Yeah, at the end of the hall. It's kind of hidden now on this back wall. Unless you ask to see it or someone tells you about it, you won't know to find it. So go find it. It's very cool. Yeah. I think the point is he just knew how to receive revelation. Yes. That's it. So he was the, the veil was very thin for him.

Mm-hmm. And, and I think that was because he, the Lord knew he could trust him with whatever it was. He's gonna do it, so let's give him the job and let's let him do it. I love that summation. That's the most important thing to learn about this prophet, is that he learned how to receive revelation. And I love how you started us out by saying, and he encouraged people to receive their own revelation.

What a great message from a prophet. In our dispensation, like in in the world we are in today too. This still applies. The idea of receiving revelation is so important and so I am grateful for the example of Wilfred Woodruff and for what we've learned today is discussing the declaration and the work that he did, and he was a prophet of change and I love that, a prophet of restoration change and I, I think it's pretty neat that we get to study this and be a part of it.

So thank you Christie. Thanks for paying the price you to learn about him. And you're not even done yet. You still have how many more years left? Uh, about a year and a half. And then we'll wrap it up and, um, hand it over to the church history [00:28:00] department. Neat. Yeah. Well be sure everybody to go check out the wilfred woodruff papers.org.

Is that correct? That's correct. And then on Apple Podcast or Spotify, look up unnamed women of the Doctrine and covenants. You are going to want to hear about his wife, Phoebe. We're not giving anything away other than their mission, honeymoon, honeymoon mission, but we'll talk more about that. So go listen to that episode.

So Kristy, thanks for joining us. That was incredible. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Segment 2

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Now we are going to move on to official declaration number two, the revelation that removed all restrictions with regard to race that once applied to the priesthood. Now I really appreciate how a come Follow Me manual approaches this declaration because it starts out by saying, I can trust the Lord even when I do not have a perfect understanding.

And then it gives us stories for us to read about Black Latter Day Saints who trusted the Lord. So for this episode, here's what we decided to do. We asked three of our friends who are black latter Day Saints to share their stories and what official declaration number two means to them and how they have come to trust in the Lord.

I am so excited to introduce you guys to my guest today, one of many. When he agreed to be on the podcast, my heart sang with Joy. Now he's been on a guest years ago. He was on the podcast, but he had to be on for this specific episode, and I just adore this man. His name is Marcus Marchine. Hello Marcus.

Hello, Tammy. Okay, listen, Marcus and I go way back. I met him in 1996. I took a class from him at BYU and then he asked me to be his TA and it changed my life. Oh my gosh. And here we are. Look, look Tammy, about those 20 bucks. You know, call BYU. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, I took a race relations class from him on a whim.

I'm like, ah, what, what do I gotta learn about this? [00:30:00] I'm from St. Louis. I'm good with it. Oh, I had a lot to learn. Believe you, me. Um, mostly because he changed my testimony and that's why I've invited him here today because I'm hoping Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Change. That's a lot. Pressure. In a sociology class.

I know, goodness, the theological implications are staggering here. It's true. It happened. You know what's interesting thing? I learned more about God and Jesus Christ in my sociology major than I did in my religion courses. So thank you to you. Oh, shout out. Gee, I wish I had bo my test, one of them. You taught truth, so that's good enough.

Okay, so here I have two questions for Marcus. The first question is in this segment, and then the next segment will be my second question. So I gave it to Marcus ahead of time so he knows what I'm gonna ask, but his answer is so cool for this first question because when I heard his story, I was in awe.

So here's my question, Marcus. How did the timing of the 1978 revelation on the priesthood change your life? Well, it's a matter of public record and, uh, a number of, of our, uh, listeners already know the story, um, for a variety of reasons in many places, including Saints Volume four, but yes, uh, when the revelation was announced June 8th, 1978, I was 19 years old.

And my fiance and I were making plans to get married in August, so this was roughly two months before our wedding in Brazil. We lived in the Rio de Janero area in Brazil. She, Marian, who's now my wife of almost 45 years, she was a return to missionary at that point. And um, she's white for those who don't know and we.

She said she would support me if I decided to serve a mission, but I said, uh, no, no, no, no. I, I was never prepared to go on a mission. I, uh, I was never even invited to [00:32:00] attend missionary preparation, firesides or other activities. They, they would simply would not invite me to be there. And so I said, no, I don't have any preparation.

Although I was a good student in seminary. I loved the scripture. I loved studying about the priesthood. And um, but um, and I said, well, it's too late. We already have this commitment. We're receiving early wedding gifts already. My stake president was not a man who took no as for an answer, and so he kept insisting and yes, I wish I could say, oh, yes, I felt the spirit is all, but no, no, I'm not gonna play a hypocritical, you know, role here of being a hero or anything.

No, I just caved into, uh, under pressure and decided to serve a mission. The only problem was that it was three weeks before the wedding. Wow. So it didn't sit very well with people. So at first people were mad at me because I was not going on a mission. Um, and uh, and then people were mad at me because I was going on a mission, um, but so close to the wedding and they were accusing me of having cold feet.

And how dare you, you know, use a mission as an excuse. And, uh, you know, I was so maligned in my stake in Rio Janea that I called the state president and said, look, you gotta help me out here. Okay, help me, get me out of Rio Janea. And so he called the missionary department. And they said, well, we have another group of, uh, incoming missionaries entering the newly established and improvised, uh, missionary training center in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Why don't we have him report to the MTC? Let's expedite his papers. Let. Tell him to work on his papers as fast as he can and, uh, send the papers to us and, uh, [00:34:00] we'll put his papers on top of the list. So by the time he leaves the the MTC in Brazil, he will probably know where he's going on a mission. And so he.

That's how I became the first black member, uh, to, uh, enter the full-time missionary service. And, uh, so nothing that, uh, oh my goodness. What a tremendous spirit exhibition. No, it, it was not like that, unfortunately. But one of the things that I could say also. About, uh, the timing of the 1978 revelation is, is this, I, I have to go back a few years.

Okay. Okay. Um, back to 1973. My father met President Spencer w Kimbo when he was president of the corner of the 12 Apostles. He was passing by Rio de Janero and it was a, um, um, middle of the week and he was waiting for his flight back to the United States. And um, and again, this is, um, documented on my father's autobiography, autobiography of Elder Health, health Martins.

And not only my father had this conversation with him, but I was singing in, in the state youth choir and our uniform as choir members for, for the, the young men were was a white shirt, the burgundy tie. It so happens that after the devotional President Kimba went with the state leaders and my father to, um, the, uh, state clerk's office.

And I went to get some water. I went to the waterfront. The waterfront was right across the door. And so when the door opens and I turn around, here's President Kimo right in front of me, and I just froze. I, I, I, I, I just froze. I didn't know what to say, didn't know what to, what to do, but I noticed that he was wearing a burgundy.

So in my limited English, I could not even, I could speak a little bit of [00:36:00] English in 1973, but I could not even come towards, but I just pointed to his tie. I pointed to my tie and he gave one of those valley laughs and that was my first connection with him. Wow. Um, so when the revelation. Uh, came. It was a process that had been going on since 1973 because every time, soon after 1973, a few months later, president Herald b Lee, the prophet passed away and President King then became the president of the church.

From that point on. Every time a general authority would, uh, be sent to preside our, uh, our state conference in Rio Janeiro. Every single one of those men came with instructions to interview my father. Hmm. So my father was interviewed by general authorities from 1974, all the way to 1977. Wow. In 1977, I was also invited to come.

In fact, the whole family, my, my, my parents, I, at that point I had three siblings. Um, and, um. So we were all invited to come and we met with them Elder Jane z Faust, who at that point in 1977 was still at General Authority 70 was not in the corner of the 12 yet. So I, I, I gave this background because when the revelation came, what something personal to me.

Yeah. I knew that President Kimball knew who I was. I knew that he had had an interest in my father. Later. We, of course, knew about his interest in Faithful brothers and sisters in in, in the United States, and in Nigeria and Ghana, and in UK and several other places. But for me, it was something that hit me very personally.

Yeah, and I don't remember if I ever mentioned this, uh, publicly, [00:38:00] but soon after we, my father and I received the ironic priesthood. We received the ironic priesthood on June 18th, 1978, and received a milk priest. A week later on June 25th. In that week, I went to my fiance's house. She lived in another city just one hour, uh, by car from Rio Jane.

And, um. Driving back home. I remember having those strong feelings that I said, I wanna talk to heavenly father about this. And I remember it was, uh, you know, uh, um, late at night, I don't know, 9:10 PM and I stopped at a view area, parked my car, and got out and out there in the, in the middle of the darkness, I, I set a prayer.

Uh, I don't remember everything that I said in that prayer. You know, it's been 47 years, but I remember thanking the Lord that I was now a priest. 'cause I had been ordained a priest a few days prior. Now as a 19-year-old, you don't really have a sense of, look, this is really going to change my life completely and so on.

But I, what I recall from the feeling I had was that my life was never gonna be the same again in or out of the church. That was so that I had a pretty good sense of, and I knew also that, um. Uh, even though I was dead set at that point still of not serving a full-time mission, that uh, it would have to be a life dedicated to service in the church of Jesus Christ at Latter Day Saints.

This was not something that I would have. Articulated, uh, very clearly as a 19-year-old, but now as a 66-year-old recalling at least the feelings that I had in, in, during that week in [00:40:00] which I, I was in between ordination as a priest, ordination as an elder. This is how I, uh, I felt the, so the impact of the revelation for me.

Was very profound for all those reasons. Uh, you know, my, you know, even though kind of prosaic connection with President Kim mm-hmm. Which was just, uh, you know, we met in the, in the hallway and we were wearing ties of the same color, but the fact that he was mindful of my father and our family, um, and, and then.

And, uh, um, the way that I had been since I was 16 years old, immersing myself in the scriptures, which is something that always gave me, uh, a great deal of pleasure. Yeah, I discovered, you know, the pleasure of immersing myself in the scriptures when I was 16 years old. And, um, so. I knew, I knew then that um, there were going to be many changes in my life.

I could not foresee what those things were going to be, but certainly looking retrospect change. Yeah, it did. My life did change in some very profound ways. Oh, Marcus, I think that story is so awesome. First of all, because I felt the spirit when you told it. Especially the part where as a 19-year-old boy, you knew your life would never be the same.

I also thought back to that moment you had with Spencer w Kimble. I don't know, like, I just feel like the, the spiritual lesson is not lost on me, but well, remember I was 14 years old for a 14-year-old. You know, out of just kind of like chance, you and the president of the corner of the 12 apostles are wearing ties of the same color.

Even though it was the, the, the ti, the tie I was wearing, it was for the uniform, for the choir, for the state youth choir. So it was not. It was my tie, but it was other, the other young men in the [00:42:00] choir were wearing the same thing, but I was the one right in front of him right there. But isn't that, it's so fascinating to me that you, for me, I got a glimpse of how God saw both of you in that moment, which is the same of all the men in the world, of all the prophets, the apostles.

He used that moment to go, yeah, we're the same. And yeah, I wish I had said that. Can, can I, you can use it. Can I use your that belong in the future? Yes, of course you can. But, but I agree with you. Yeah. At 14, the Lord is like, I see you Marcus, and with a man who sees you through my eyes that you're the same and this is all gonna work out in a couple of years.

And, and, and what, for whatever reason, like, I'm sorry. It's, it hasn't been good. But I see not only 14, but we have been members of the church for about one year only. Wow. We had been baptized in 1972, so Wow. You know, four 14 years old and still read a recent convert. Wow. And I'm meeting an apostle, the president of born 12, who couple of months later became.

The president of the church. Mm-hmm. The prophet. And so it's really neat. It was really remarkable for me. Hey, where'd you end up going on your mission? Oh, that's the other, uh, nice thing about the story. Uh, it by a set of circumstances. You know, I went to the MTC before the mission call arrived, which was kind of, uh, oh, that's crazy.

Interesting. Uh, everybody was asking, where are you going? I said, I don't know. So what are you doing here at the MTC? And I said, well, they told me to come and. So the other mission editor are looking at me and said, that's weird. They didn't say it, but I could see from their expression. Mm-hmm. It was, you know, on the surface weird 'cause they didn't know the backstory, but, um.

They told me that I was going to wait for my mission call in the Brazil Sao Paulo North Mission. At that time, there were four missions in Brazil, in all of Brazil. Brazil. For, uh, our listeners that know how to geographically, uh, minded is, uh, [00:44:00] Brazil is as large as the, in fact, slightly larger than the 48 u uh, United States.

And there were only four missions covering, and the Rio De Janero mission covered 75% of the country. Everything north of Rio de Janero was the Rio De Janero mission. So you had the two missions in Sao Paulo. My fiance had served in the Sao Paulo South Mission. Then there was the porte remission in Southern Brazil.

Well, uh, um, soon I've, uh, I've, uh, um, well, I was told then you're gonna wait for your mission call in the Sao Paulo North Mission. Said, okay, fine. I'll wait for my call. Well, I was in the MTC only for a day and a half. As I mentioned, MTC was very improvised at the time. And we didn't have any language training.

We're all Brazilians. Well, one of, in our group was from Argentina, and um, so Spanish and Portuguese are close enough he could get by. So when we were leaving after then, after they took, uh. No, you're gonna stay in Sao Paulo North Mission. I'm gonna stay there. They told me I was just going to wait for my call.

They said, no, no, no, you're gonna be there. Not long after that. I saw a copy of the church news mentioning that I ha I was serving in the Brazil Port Allegory mission. Sold in Brazil. And I said, look, that's not a typo. Okay. Sao Paulo to Port Allegra, that's not a typo. So I thought, okay, I was reassigned. So they probably look at that, well, since he's in Sao Paulo, north Nation, uh, let him stay there.

Might as well stay there. And that's how I Ian think that, well, this was not really the, the place where I was supposed to serve, you know? Huh? This was the place where they felt, well, might as well serve there. Well, fast forward 33 years. From 1978 to 2011, so my wife and I receive our call to serve as mission leaders of the Brazil Sao Paulo North Mission.

Oh wow. There [00:46:00] that when I, when I fi, that's when I finally realized that the Sao Paulo North Mission had indeed being the mission where the Lord wanted me to serve. That is so cool. Well, it took me 33 years to get a testimony of that. That is so cool. I love it. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. You know, and mind you, at that point, Brazil had 35 missions.

Okay. Wow. And, uh, we had, uh, 12 missions changing presidents in, uh, in, uh, in 2011. I could have gone to 11, well, not 11, not the mission. 'cause one of the missions was Rio, where I lived. So I knew, but I, there were 10 other missions that we could, I could have been called to, but I, the Lord called me to the Sao Paulo North mission with my wife.

And uh, that's when I realized, which, uh, was confidential because I had a few cases of missionaries during. Three years who were reassigned to my mission and they were struggling. 'cause this was prior to the time when Dave Bader gave that explanation. Mm-hmm. No, you were called as missionaries. The place where you're going to serve, uh, that can change, but you are missionaries.

There was no change. That's the call, the call to serve as a full-time missionary. So this was strategy that day. So. Being reassigned for a number of elders and young elders, young sisters was kind of, uh, you know, troubling. And so, look, you know, God told me to go to such and such place and now I'm being told to go elsewhere.

And so I was able to sit down with those. I had a two or three cases, uh, during those three years in which I sat down with them and I said, her, look, lemme tell you my story. And then at the end of telling them, my story said, I don't expect that you're necessarily going to be the president of this mission 33 years from now, but I'm telling you, this is where the Lord wants you to serve.

Now the way by which you came to this [00:48:00] particular mission. Does not matter. What matters is what you're gonna do now that you're here. And so, absolutely. So it ended up he helping the fact that I had that experience. Oh, that's really great. And I hope that young man, young women don't need 33 years to find out that I served my mission where the Lord would have me.

Yeah. Oh, I think that's a great application and something everyone needs to realize when they get their mission call. So, very cool. Thank you.

[00:00:00]

Segment 3

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So Marcus, now you have made your career, you, you have a PhD. I met you when you were working on your PhD and you were teaching at BYU at the same time. And you've also, so you're a professor, you're also an author. And this is pretty neat because I met you when you were researching and developing this idea, which was your first book called Setting the Record, straight Blacks and the Mormon Priesthood.

Alright. And now you have a second book coming out and I'm so excited about it. 'cause now it's available and it is called the Priesthood, earthly Symbols and Heavenly Realities. And I wanna know why have you spent the last 50 years studying this topic? Why? What do you want people to know? Well, first of all, lemme say that, uh, the 50 years is because when I turned 16, my father, El Martin told me, look, you know, you need to learn the ordinance, how to perform the ordinance of the ironic priest, which I thought, well, why would I do that?

I'm not gonna hold the priest. I said, well, that's what a 16-year-old in the church needs to learn when you turn 16. So, um. That's what a young man need to learn when you turn 16 in the church. So, and so our listeners know your father. What's significant about your father? 'cause he's a first also in the church.

Yes. If you got the first mission, call he Yes. He became the first, uh, member of the church with black African ancestry. To serve as a counselor in a state presidency. In fact, there was, I believe, an article in The Washington Post about that. Yeah. There was a little article in the Washington Post, somebody here from Bonview International in Salt Lake City.

Wow. Sent him a, a copy of the article. Um, later he, um, um, served as a bishop, um, and he was the first black member to serve as a mission president. And, uh, and of course in 1990 he was called as the first black member to serve as a [00:02:00] general authority. 70. He served in the old, uh, second quarter of the seventies.

So he served from 1990 until 1995. Spoke in general conference a couple of times and um, offered a closing prayer in one session also. So he spoke three times in general conference. One of the times, yeah. Was, uh, closing prayer, which. The church in news was very kind. They sent me a picture, uh, of him next to Van Elder because in those days, in the Tabernacle, um, in order to expedite things, the.

The, the 70 who was going, we didn't have sisters praying in general conference at the time. So the 70 who would offer the closing prayer would come down from his seat and sit next to one of the apostles in between two seats there of the apostle. So my father sat next to other oaks, other wokes, put his hand on my father's shoulder.

Wow. And the church in news had that picture and they sent the picture. To me as a gift. Oh. And I have that, yeah, I have that on my social media account. 'cause I, uh, reproduced the picture, you know, with the corcas of the church news and I said, look, it was remarkable. And, uh, that I say, yeah, he, they were, he was waiting for the choir, the Tabernacle choir to finish mm-hmm.

Singing. So he could go to the Pope and offer his prayer. Um, we'll be sure to include the link. We're gonna include the picture in our show notes, so make sure you guys go and check that out. It's gonna be really cool. Okay. Sorry, I interrupted you, but now go back. So your father felt like it was important for you to do what 16-year-old men were doing?

Yes. Even though you couldn't have a priesthood? That's what, yes. That, and that's what started me. You know, researching, studying about the priesthood, it's because then when I turned 18, I didn't need my father to tell me to study the ordinances of the male ISDA priesthood. Oh, wow. I just did it on my own, you know, when I was 17, almost 18 years old, my then girlfriend was serving a full-time mission at the time, this was 1977.

And I knew that she was [00:04:00] meeting a lot of guys there on her Brazil, San Paulo, south Mission who are elders. And I knew that, look, I have to be better than these guys. And I have to know more than they do about the doctrine, about the priesthood. It's ordinances because you know, if I'm going to marry her. I cannot have her thinking that, well, maybe I should have married one of those missionaries, uh, or somebody who had served a mission.

So, uh, yeah, kind of for selfish reasons, perhaps love it. It, but I said, look, I better study this and prepare myself. But I then, uh, uh, as I mentioned, I had already a love for the scriptures. When, when I, when I turned 16, the year I turned 16, 19 75. I decided on my own to read all the standard works during that year.

And when I did that, uh, it, I fell in love with the scriptures. Wow. And I never stopped from that point on. And so since then, I have been a student of the scriptures of the doctrine and, um. I never imagined that I was going to have a career as an educator, much less in, uh, in religious education. But, you know, after my mission, you know, uh, we, Mira and I got married in 1980, December of 1980, so we're gonna clock 45 years now.

And, uh, over time teaching Sunday school. Occasionally teaching institute. I taught Institute of Religion in Brazil on and off for about eight years. Not entire time, but on and off. And then my love for temple ordinance because, uh, right after my mission, I had a short stint as a temple ordinance worker in the Sao Paulo temple.

This was in 1980. So looking at all the symbolism of. [00:06:00] Priesthood and keys and ordinance and all those things that President Brigham Young had mentioned, that your endow consistency, obtaining all these things associated with the, with the holy priesthood and gain your exaltation, you know, I was enamored of that.

So, you know, then, uh, years later, I found myself at BYU, as you mentioned, now a part-time lecturer at BYU. Being a black man, you know, that's kind of, well, you know, we, we had others. In the, on the faculty at BYU who were African Americans? Well, I was neither African nor American, but I was black and teaching both sociology and religion classes.

Now teach sociology. Okay, well kind of a mm-hmm. You know, but teaching religion, 'cause they found out that I was getting my PhD and that I had taught on and off institute classes in Brazil and my English was. Reasonably good. So, uh, so in winter of 1994, January of 94, I started teaching then at BYU and that's when things got interesting because then there were students, African American students, you know, on campus would come to my office to talk to me about things they were hearing in their classes.

From their professors about, uh oh, you know, the curse and a number of them were recent converts, had never heard. About the curse of Kane and right, and the lineage of Kane and so on. But it was only in 2007 that I was approached by, uh, the publisher, uh, that is now extinct, millennial press, and they were putting out the series, setting the record straight about Mormons and Masons, Mormons and polygamy.

One's in the word of wisdom and, uh, Joseph Smith candidacy as a, [00:08:00] to the US presidency. So they asked me. She'll do the honors and talk about blacks and the Mormon priests. I knew there were people who equally, perhaps even more qualified, Doras Gray and uh, um, um, roughing Bridge forth, who had been members of the church longer than I had.

But I was the one who was. You know, teaching at BYU and the owner of, uh, millennial press, uh, his, his father was a professor at BYU. Mm-hmm. Uh, religion professor at BYU. That's the connection there. And so I took a lot of those things that I had a, that material that I had amassed over the years and Butcher gathered this, uh, these short book.

Essentially explaining why those, uh, beliefs about black race being fence cedars non less valiant and so on, why those things didn't hold water, right. I thought I was going to get into a lot of trouble. In fact, I was expecting, look, and I, my state president called me on the carpet and, uh, it's gonna be a problem.

Uh, at that point, just 2007, I should say, I was living in, uh, in Hawaii. I was then a full-time professor at BYU Hawaii. After BYUI went to Van Rick Scalley. I spent, so I spent three years teaching at BYU as a part-time lecture. Then I was a full-time professor at, uh, van Rick's College. Mm-hmm. Left when Rick's College became BYY though, and then spent my following years at BY Hawaii.

So in 2007 I was at BYU Hawaii and I thought this could get me to a whole lot of trouble. 'cause essentially I was contradicting dozens of apostles prophets in the seventies from the past. That bull. I was in la, Hawaii, that's 2,500 miles from the US mainland. So the, the long arm of the law didn't, didn't, didn't reach all the way there.

So I [00:10:00] was kind of safe. The book sold out, but unfortunately, uh, millennial press went out of business and so. I was a best, according to Deseret book, I was a bestselling author for one week. Mm-hmm. And that was it. One week. Okay. So here's my question as a bestselling author then, what do you want the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to know then about that whole title of your book?

When you talked about setting the record straight, what do you want them to know about that? Or what is your testimony of blacks in the priesthood? It's very simple. Uh, you know, this book is not about blacks. Or whites or Asians or Native Americans or any indigenous group. It's about the priesthood. Yeah, the priesthood as the President Brigham and called it a system of government.

But I go beyond being a system of government, I go beyond that and I go into the royalty that is involved in the priesthood about the, the. Intimations about the, the inklings, about the, the symbolism that, uh, is presented to us through priesthood ordinances, through covenants, and through the administration of the priesthood authority in councils, which means then this involves both men and women in the church.

Mm-hmm. Okay. From young men and young women, all the way to the most elderly brother or sister. That as said, look, you know, we are dealing with something that is way beyond what we normally think of in terms of authority. No, this is the order. This is the order of worlds. Worlds of glory, the eternal worlds glorified, uh, immortal spheres where the nobility of heaven engaged in a never ending work of, uh, [00:12:00] creating downgrading, redeeming, and glorifying worlds without number.

And amazingly, we are being called to participate in that work. As imperfect as we are to participate in our work for ourselves, for our families, for our ancestors, and for future generations. Through our words, the words of eternal life, our testimonies. And now we have the technology to allow our testimonies to go beyond our lifetimes.

Not only in written form, but we have image and sound. Mm-hmm. And so, wow. Um. I, I go into some, uh, areas in this book. That's why I called, uh, the subtitle, earthly Symbols and heavenly Realities. Beautiful. Through these earthly soaking and the bread and water and sacred clothing and altars and what have you, we're being taught something that is way, way, way beyond our mortal imagination.

It is, um. Kind of a very rough and very imperfect analogy here would be this. Yeah. We are at a driving school and we've just been taught to drive, but initially we're given the keys to a little compact car. Mm-hmm. And pretty soon we move into a sedan and then moving to, uh, let's not use minivan here because some people may not like it.

That's an SUV. Sure. But then after that, we go into a pickup truck. From there to a full-sized truck, and then pretty soon, uh, an 18 wheeler. Hmm. And eventually I like that. After this life, we're gonna be, we're gonna be using this to go beyond the ground and [00:14:00] start, then look, you know, we're going to be flying.

I think Elder Peter Udo would love this, but we're gonna be flying, but flying, not using aerodynamics. Flying using priesthood. And by then we will have then keys to handle what the prophet Jews need called the powers of heaven. Yeah. And, uh, as resurrected beings glorified with thees of glory, being able to manipulate.

Matter space time. Who knows? Who knows? But that's what the book is about. Then. Well, and, and to quote you, I'll, I'll wrap this up with what you taught us earlier, which is, and because of this priesthood, because of this priesthood power, our lives will never be the same again. So that's what's so beautiful about it.

So thank you for paying the price to study this topic, to write about it, and I highly recommend all of you if you can, if you can find a copy of his old book, read it, 10 Outta 10, I loved it. And then I'm so looking forward to getting my hands on your new book, Marcus. So thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for having me here. Tell your wife wonderful. Hello and good luck on your mission. Thank your husband. Thank you very much.

Segment 4

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I'm so excited because I'm here with Mauli Bonner. Hello. Hey, we're excited too. This is so fun. Okay. Um, I want you guys to know how much I love this person because first of all. He doesn't want me to say this, but I'm going to. He was in a man group. That's right. Not a boy band. No boy bands around here, but a man group.

He won't tell me what it is though. 'cause he said if I do well I'll Google it. And that's true. It's to my grave. I promise you that. I'm gonna find you out. Um, the other cool thing, he's a producer and a director. Green Flake. If you have not seen that, you wanna go and watch the movie Green Flake. It is so good.

And he's always working [00:16:00] on projects. It's really cool. And so I'm thankful that you took the time to come and just talk to us about this official declaration. Number two, the lifting of the priesthood ban. Yes. How do you feel about it? My pleasure. I, I'm just happy to talk about it like it's. It's a celebration.

It really is. Oh, 1978 is a celebration now. That's a great way to put it. It is. Because it's an achievement in our progression to being one. Yeah. You know, it's like, was it late? Yeah. For me. Should it have never been there? No, but we. We're able to experience that band being lifted. And I celebrate that. I celebrate anything that we do that is towards us becoming one.

Ooh, that's beautiful. That's just for me. And you know, I do get asked a lot, um, about how I feel about the history and, and how could I even be in the church knowing the history. Yeah. Tell me about that. You know, the history is not the hard part. It's the living, uh, the day-to-day experiences. Those are the harder parts, the things that we have to actually live.

But learning about history, that's not difficult. At least, at least for me, it's not. And when I think about the history of the priesthood, knowing that those of African descent, my people we're denied access to sealing their families together, knowing that they have spent generations of being torn apart, that's heartbreaking, but.

This is the Lord's Church, Jesus Christ. And I know that there are men who are leading the church. Imperfect men. Flawed men. Mm-hmm. As great as Peter was, he was not perfect following Jesus Christ. Yeah. As incredible as Judas was handpicked by Jesus Christ, he was not perfect. And because they did things that were flawed to Jesus, our Christ, I can't walk away from Christianity because of how Peter.

Chose to live his life or what decisions Judas [00:18:00] made, and I see that no different with this gospel. It's still the same gospel of Jesus Christ. So no matter what any man does, it has no effect on my dedication to Jesus Christ and his gospel. And so for me, it's just that simple. Hmm. You weren't alive when the band lifted.

I just found out he's much younger than I, so yeah. You, I'm not that much younger, but, but I wanna know, when you talked about how the history isn't hard, the day to day is hard. Gimme an example of what you mean by that. Well, okay. Um, seminary. Mm-hmm. I grew. Coming to go to seminary. Sure. Um, I say having to go, we all know what you mean, getting to go right, right.

To seminary. Um, but when I went to seminary, my seminary teacher had me stand up and he said, uh, please stand. And he pointed to my skin. He said, now you won't meet Jesus. Oh dear. And, and it's not your fault. It's not you, but, and he goes on to talk about the color of my skin and why I won't get to the highest degree of glory, Jesus.

Where he had a whole thing. And I thought, what is, why is he saying this? What is he talking about? And then I went home, felt embarrassed, came back the next day and he did it again and explaining more. And so that is the day to day. It's the lived experiences. We're living through the remnants of this ban, of this, um, restriction because there was no, um, reteaching or unteaching of the old ways.

And so I don't think that this, the seminary teacher is this overt racist, this, this out to get me this young black boy. I think he was filling in the blanks with some really rotten history. Yeah. And that's the lived experiences that are difficult. What isn't hard. Is to look at what other black people have had to endure before me.

I look at their faith and how they navigated it. Yeah, that inspires me. It inspires me to think of Elijah Abel. How did he do it? Getting the priesthood from Joseph Smith and then being denied, sealing [00:20:00] his family together. How did he stay faithful to the end? I want that. What about those saints that were with Jesus when he died on the cross?

Yeah, and they watched Peter deny Jesus Christ right in front of them and they stayed. Why would they stay when that happened? Judas turned him in. Okay. Everybody leave, but they didn't. Yeah, they followed Jesus Christ in his gospel, and I wanna be those people. I don't want to be. The ones that this is not about.

Uh, and I don't mean to say those who have left because of reason. I don't mean to talk about them, but I don't personally wanna walk away from Jesus because of a man. Yeah. I can't. I think it's interesting you're bringing up those examples because I'm thinking how when the Savior first started his ministry, he wasn't even, he's like, we're not teaching anyone but the Jews.

Yeah. Nobody else gets my gospel. Just the Jews. And it would've been so easy after his death for those people to go, oh, now we're good enough. Now we're good enough to, to learn from the apostles and prophets. Wow. And, and because you're going back to that like, and then those people who are willing to learn and join this gospel that pushed them out for so long.

You know, you have the s Phoenician woman who wanted her daughter to be healed and the savior's like, nah, you're not a Jew. I can't help you. And that's the line where she says, yes. But even the dogs eat of the crumb of the master's table. Like, I know, but I can still partake of the goodness, even though I'm not allowed right now.

And that's when the savior's like. Oh, okay. We'll heal your daughter. I've never seen greater faith among anyone. Wow. And, and I, I love that because there's that wrestle for people who, you just said the name Elijah Abel. Quickly, like, who is that? 'cause a lot of people hear that and like, wait, what? Yeah. So I, for most of my life, thought that there were no black people that had the priesthood until 1978.

Okay. But that wasn't the case. You know, PE black people were getting baptized and receiving the priesthood at the same time as white people in the early 1830s. Okay? So you have Elijah Abel, 1836 that receives the priesthood and his priesthood papers were signed by [00:22:00] Joseph Smith, himself. And then he was asked to serve multiple missions as a black man.

And, and that's just, it's not just unique in our church, it's unique in America like that, that equality mm-hmm in a Christian Church is not normal during that time. So we were, as a church ahead of the game. Then we lost our way. Yeah. To me, we lost our way. And thankfully we found our way back and, and I feel like we can only talk about the successes we have now.

If we can acknowledge where we were then Oh, I like that. You know, so now we can say, yeah. We as a church are doing this, this, and that in these parts of the world, and these black communities and in this continent. And we can celebrate that because we can say, look how far we've come because look where we were.

Yeah. And so I just, I just hope that, you know, as uncomfortable as it is, we learn the history and we celebrate those who navigated in faith. Mm-hmm. And then celebrate what we're doing today and be a part of the work. I love how you keep bringing up the word, celebrate that. That makes my heart so happy.

Like, I love that. And, and you're married? I am. And you have children, how many kids? Two kids, geo and Ari. Um, 12-year-old geo, 9-year-old Ari. And it's, it's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So. What are you trying to do then for their future when it comes to teaching them about the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Representation, representation? That to me is a big part of, um, what I feel my calling is right now. Um, there's, I don't see myself as like a great teacher or anything like that, but I, I do realize that there's art that I can create. Mm-hmm. And when I say representation, I mean. After making the Green Flake film, you know, there I was looking for monuments and I saw that there was no monuments Yeah.

Of black pioneers. Nowhere to see that there were black people that came across that trek. [00:24:00] And having art and representation is a big part of our education because especially as children, my kids, my son looks at art on the walls in the churches. Yeah. And he gathers his truth from the art first. He was telling me that papa wouldn't go to heaven because he didn't see any brown angels and I, I'm sitting here saying, don't look at the pictures.

Ignore that painting. That's not true. That, that can't be the case. Right. You know, we, we can't work against the art we put in our buildings. So instead I have to do my part of at least creating something. Yeah. So that we do have a place to show our children, not just black and brown children, white children, all children should see that we're all here.

We all have a hand in the work of the Lord. Oh my goodness. And that statue, by the way, is phenomenal. Isn't it? Beautiful? It's so beautiful. Listen, everyone listening, when you come to Utah, if you're from Utah, go see it. But when you come to Utah, I know that on the list of things to go see is Temple. All the stuff downtown in Salt Lake City, it number one on your list should be the statue.

This is the place Monument. Breathtaking. Put that at the top of your list because it is such a beautiful witness and testament to those who stayed. And that's my favorite thing about talking with people who've experienced this wrestle firsthand, is asking the question like, why do you stay? And you've beautifully answered that It's for Jesus Christ.

And I think when all of us. Reached those moments in our life where you said like, history's hard, but the day-to-day life is harder. I think you're absolutely right, and maybe all of us could answer the question, why do we stay? Because I think at some point in our life we have to answer that for ourselves.

And I mean, I, I think you're absolutely right. And for me, the fact that Jesus was willing to die for this. The least I could do is live. I don't have to die for it. Yeah, I don't have to suffer for it. Just live for it. I can live for his gospel. He did all the hard stuff, so just let me, what can I do today to help [00:26:00] support what he was willing to die for?

It's a no brainer for me. We're just gonna Amen. That right there. Amen. What a great thing to think, to just live for it. So thank you, Mauli. Absolutely. What a great discussion. I just love your testimony and the work you're doing, and no doubt, representation is your spiritual gift. Thank you. You're doing a great job with it.

I appreciate that. Can't wait to see what comes up in the future for you. Thanks. Okay.

Segment 5

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I'm here with my friends, Ron and Deena McLean. Hi, you two. Hi there. Good evening. We're actually in your home. This is fun because usually we're doing over Zoom and I'm in my closet. Isn't that fun? I record. There's clothes all around, so it's a great sound barrier and so this is fun to be in your house. So thanks for taking the time to be on this podcast.

Welcome. Now, this is a fun story. This is how I met them, is they were in my husband's ward growing up in Oakland, California. That's how I met. And so we met at certain parties and I've heard their stories and we've talked, and so when you told me your story about how you met and being members of the church, when we came to this episode, I'm like, I have to have the MLA's on.

So I hunted them down. I stalked you guys. How do you feel about that?

What did you think when you, when you saw my email or my text, I said, oh boy. But does anyone really want to hear this story again? We do. Definitely we do. So I think this will be good. So I'm just gonna ask you questions. So here's my first question for you. How long have you been married? We got married in 1983.

Yeah, we were together before that. So we've known each other since 1975. Oh, cool. How'd you meet? Tell us your story. Law school, uc, Davis Law School started, you know, the same class, same day, same contracts class. Oh, wow. [00:28:00] And how many children do you have? Three. Between us, we have three. Yeah. Three others?

Five total. Five total. Uh, grandkids. We have to count them. Figure. Yeah. No, we have, um, 2, 4, 7, and seven and four. Yeah. 11, Willie 12. We had one grandchild who passed away when he was like 12 months. No, about 16 months old. 16 months old, I'm sorry. But yeah, 12 grandkids. And then five, uh, six.

Great-grandchildren. Great-grandchildren. No wait. Well. That's good enough. That's quite a legacy. I mean, that's fantastic. Okay, so then tell me a little bit about your background with the church. Were you raised in the church? Are you member, are you converts to the church? What, what's your story there?

We'll start with you Dina. I was, uh, yes, I was raised in the church. My mother converted, my father had grown up in the church in Utah. My mother converted when I was a child and, um. So, yes, I was very active in the church up through college and, um, then I, I went away and I fell away and, um, stayed that way for a number of years until about 84, I think.

Oh, wow. 1984. I wanna come back to that story, how that, how you came back in 1984. That's pretty well Pat. We'll, we'll tag that for a second. That's pretty cool. What about you Ron? I, um, actually knew nothing about the church until I met Dina. Oh, wow. Yeah. Even though I grew up in Kansas City and, um, independence is.

It's not a stone throw from there, but it's very close. And, uh, and the whole, the role that, uh, Missouri played in the early history of the [00:30:00] church is something that I've learned since I joined the church. So, long story short, uh, Gwen uh, Dina's. Home teachers would come to visit her. I would, I would get lost.

And finally one day, um, one of the, um, elders gave me a book of Mormon and underlined Marona. I. 10 versus three to five. Mm-hmm. And suggested that I, I read that and study that, which I did, and then promptly put the book on the shelf, you know, and, um, and didn't pay much attention to it. Very good friend at mine, uh, came by and asked me why I wasn't in priesthood, and I said, well, I'm not a member.

I didn't think you could go. He said, well, come next week. And I said, yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. Thought that was the end of it. We went home and the doorbell rang, I mean, literally outta my garage around the end to the doorbell, to the, in the front door, and there stood a couple of elders. Hmm. Brother Bears said that we should come talk to you.

So that started my investigation, um, of the church. Wow, okay. This is a really great story because, so the missionaries came to your house. Let's go back to you then, Dina. 'cause I wanna know I to 1984. What brought about this change with you? Why, maybe why? Was there a reason you left or anything? Well, I, you know, there were many, there were a number of things that I was struggling with, and one of them was the blacks and the priesthood issue.

And, um, you know, and I got away from kind of my home base. It was very easy to just say, okay, I just, I can't. Do that anymore. Sure. So, you know, off and on I had visiting teachers or home teachers visit me, but not consistently, [00:32:00] especially not in New York. And, um, then I don't know when, when Rachel was a baby, you know, just one night I was home alone.

'cause Ronald was late coming home and I. It was for the days of cell phones, you couldn't really mm-hmm. Reach somebody who, well, you weren't sure where they were. Yeah. That was a rough time. I don't know how we got through that seriously. And so, um, I just, you know, was thinking about what if something happened, what would I do?

Who would I go to? And, um, you know, I just, it just hit me that I really, I needed, I needed to feel close to. Community again, and I needed to think about my relationship to Jesus. And um, so we both had many habits we had to get rid of, but I, I told Ronald I would like to go back to church. And he said, okay, well if you're gonna go, I'll go with you.

I didn't ask him, so he just volunteered. And so we started coming to church and then Ronald started. On his long adventure. Yeah. Tell me why you chuckled at that. Well, because my immediate reaction just tell like it is, talk to me here I am an adult, a black male in the United States of America during a time that was.

Volatile, especially with respect to race relations. I am, uh, presented with an opportunity to join church or by these, uh, young men. Mm-hmm. Teenagers, well, yeah, a little bit older than that, who were telling me some things that I'm saying, whoa, wait a minute. For sure. You want me to believe this? I mean, the story of the [00:34:00] first visit, I mean that.

For if you've got another frame of reference, uh, that is. That sticks in your craw a little bit. And so I was, I pushed that away. And um, then came, and I mean along with it was the church's position on, on, uh, blacks not, uh, being able all the priesthood 150 years, that practice. And, and of course, well, we've changed and all is well and.

That was a number of things. And I also spoke with, I, I talked with because the ward was just a lot of people there that I could really sit down and talk with. Oh, yeah. Uh, people that, I'm still very good friends. Uh, Jake Paul Freeman's one. Um, I talked with Gary Anderson. I talked with others about. This whole, uh, priesthood issue and, um, trying to find a way to reconcile that and settle that in with, um, when my first reaction was, this institution is racist.

Yeah. You know, and what am I gonna do about that and why should I join this church? And long story short, um, after going through. Several sets of elders. I love the Deena laugh. Several, huh? I, I just said, well, you know, there's no answer to that. You know, I can't reconcile that, uh, to my satisfaction. So there's gotta be, there has to be another way to go at this and then became one of what the church and its value to us as a family.

Mm-hmm. That when you read, when I read the Book of Mormon, I, you know, you'd look in the footnotes and they were all, all the cross references to the Old Testament, the New Testament, and I just decided, uh, well that much I can buy into. But I, [00:36:00] I have to sit this whole story about, uh, Joseph Smith in the first vision and his Gil.

That he wrote to sing, speaking figuratively, but not deprecatingly overnight. Hmm. I just have to set that aside, that I have to come to grips with that later. Yeah. Because, uh, if, if that is the prerequisite for embracing this church and I can't take that step right now. Mm-hmm. You know, so that was sort of the way I came at it.

Wow. What was it for you, other than family? Was there anything else? No. Family. Just family. Was it that was it for you? You know, um, wow. That you can be together forever. That, uh, not only that, but in an, in our, at that time, mean a, a very vital and active ward that had programs that would, um. That were beneficial to join, keep, you know, drawing us closer as a family.

Sure. Um, also, um, a safe haven, if you will, for our, our, our family that was growing our, our daughters. Mm-hmm. And the people. The people. Um, I mean, the thing that attracted me to Deena when we were in law school was just kind of person She is. Yeah. Um, so I was able, I. I was able to push or to box up. Yeah. My reaction, my opinion of the church to, um, to become bap, to join the church and be baptized.

And so I, and I think that's under the heading of I can believe in the gospel and I think the gospel is true. Yeah. And all these years later now, is this still boxed for you? Largely speaking. Yeah, yeah. You know, um, there are aspects of the church. I mean, I, I really don't want to go down the [00:38:00] road, you know?

Um, I, I would also say that, um, my s my church service, uh, is very instrumental in, in, in, and I'm speaking primarily about, uh, receiving the, the sealing powers in, um. 2005 or oh six and, um, my experience in the temple. Oh, wow. Um, you're a sealer in the temple. Yeah, and I mean, when I walk in that building, when I walk in the temple, I have a different mindset.

You do about the church, about church members. Tell me about that. How different, what do you mean? Well. It's disengaged from the politic Okay. Of what the church is about. Mm-hmm. And, um, the ceiling ordinance especially is important because that's where we put to work. Uh, building families, making families, and extending these ordinances of salvation and exaltation that, um.

Will ripen and manifest in on the other side of the veil, although none of us can speak to or shouldn't be speaking to, with absolutely about what happens over there. Mm-hmm. But it's the way people treat each other inside the temple. I guess that's the, the easiest way to state it. Deena tell me, really, I'd love to hear from you about how the gospel of Jesus Christ and his conversion has affected your relationship and your family.

Oh, it's been like night day, really. I think it's just brought us closer together and more aligned in our love, in our relationship, the [00:40:00] toward our children and grandchildren. Well, let me just say this. How fitting and divine that God would choose a couple like you to work in the temple, to be a sealer when your whole testimony is rooted in family and in progression as a family and being sealed together as a family that is remarkable.

Outside of whatever it is you've had to shelf. I just think God is so great in saying, you know what, the McLean's, let's get them in the temple and let's get Ron a sealer because I, I love that the Lord uses what our testimony is rooted in. To then progress his work isn't that great how he uses us to do that.

It's It is. Yeah, it is. And so everything else, whatever. If it doesn't make sense now, it will eventually. But right now what does make sense is what you've shared today is you both have such a solid testimony of family. And for those of you, you're not here, you can't see, but I'm in their home and their walls are covered with pictures of family.

Well, that was such a great way to handle this. Thank you. Come follow me, Manuel, and I'm so thankful for my guests. What a great discussion today that we've had about these official declarations. And so in the next segment, I'm just gonna share with you some of my final thoughts.

Segment 6

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So back in October in general conference, elder Peter M. Johnson spoke on a topic called ministering to the One. But in his talk, he actually shared a really cool personal story about joining the church when he was 19 years old, and then waiting a year later to go on a mission. He was a newly called missionary in the Birmingham, Alabama mission, and when he was there, he said he had not learned.

So much about church history, and then he did. And he said early in his mission service, he learned that there was a period when those who are of black African descent weren't allowed to enjoy all the blessings of worshiping in the house of the Lord, and that he said, [00:42:00] learning this for the first time, brought feelings of anger, confusion, doubt, and fear.

And then he said those feelings were so intense that his ability to recognize the Holy Ghost was lost for a season. Then he shared in this story about his sweet companion, who just would continually say, I love you, elder Johnson. I love you, elder Johnson. And so after some time, elder Johnson decided then to take this to the test to get on his knees and ask the Lord about this change.

And as he was praying. He had a very spiritual experience that he shared in general conference and he was taken to doctrine and covenants and he thought of verses 21 through 23. And in these verses it says, behold, I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I am the light, which shineth in darkness. Cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? And I want you to hear from his own words about the experience he had after reading that scripture in the Doctrine and Cabinets. As I read, I remembered, I remembered the day that I have fastened and prayed to know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that Joseph Smith is the prophet of the restoration.

I remember covenants made in the house of the Lord that connect me to Jesus Christ in such a personal and intimate way. I felt of the save his love, his mercy, and of his assurance that the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latterday Saints is his kingdom upon the earth and is necessary to prepare us for his second coming.

Because I remembered, I, again was able to recognize the Holy Ghost and to understand more fully that Jesus is the Christ and I am His disciple. At times, we will have unanswered questions. And feelings of being unimportant, discouraged, alone and unseen. However, my friends, we must press forward [00:44:00] with faith in Jesus Christ and remember his words.

Let not your heart be troubled. In a world ye shall have tribulations, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. I am a witness to this reality and of the savior's promised blessing. I loved this talk and I loved this point in general conference because I felt like so many of us resonated with his words.

But then at the end of his talk, he gives the most incredible blessing. He gives a promise to every single one of us who have things that we have to, as Ron said. Box up and put on a shelf, and I think that this is worth reading. He says, as we live the doctrine of Christ and minister to the one in ways that lead to the house of the Lord, we will press forward with faith in Jesus Christ, even amid unanswered questions and feelings of being unimportant, alone, discouraged and unseen in the house of the Lord.

We will feel the savior's mercy. We will find answers to our most vexing questions. And we will better comprehend the joy of his gospel. And that's how he ended it. And for me, it was just so perfect because my guests today are an example as well as Elder Johnson is an example of their faith was proved sufficient.

And I remember the first time I heard that phrase. I was in Liberty Jail years ago, and the sweet brother and sister missionaries who were giving the tour told us that line. They said Joseph's faith was proved sufficient. I'm sure there were things that Joseph had to box up and put on a shelf. Questions about why he was even in jail.

What was he doing? Was it all worth it? And so when I think about my experience with the gospel of Jesus Christ and things I don't have all the answers to, I am grateful for the examples of the saints who have been able to persevere at times when they felt maybe unseen or unimportant. But going back to what Ali said, that it is all about Jesus.

And it is about his relationship with Jesus Christ. And so I'm thankful for my guests and for [00:46:00] their testimonies today and for their examples that they've been to each one of us. And I hope that this episode has been the same for you. Thanks for joining us. Have a wonderful week, and we look forward to hearing what you have to share on our Instagram and Facebook.

Well, what eternal truth did you learn as you were listening to this episode today? Go join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned, and you can even ask questions, which we love to answer. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we post a question from this discussion.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday. And. It's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion, so go check it out.

The Sunday Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our awesome study group participants were Kristy Wheelwright Taylor, Marcus Martins, Mauli Bonner. And Ron and Deena McLean, and you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember that you are God's favorite.