The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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Segment 1
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Moses was instructed to say to Pharaoh, the Lord, the God of the Hebrews. Sent me to you saying, let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness. Now, listen, I wonder if it turned out to be a lot harder than Moses imagined. I wonder if Moses thought it would be sort of a one and done plague rather than a think.
Again, there's gonna be 10 because in this week's study of Exodus seven through 13, we get to study the 10 plagues and learn about the role that the God of the Hebrews, the Lord Jehovah, played in letting the Israelites go that they may serve him. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.
I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow Me study. Just like my longtime listening friend, Maryanne Fifield. Hi Maryanne. Thank you for coming up and saying hi to me.
It made my morning. Now the best thing about this study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, and so it's always gonna be a little bit different. And today we have two dear friends. I love these women dearly. In fact, even in my prayer when I began, I told Heavenly Father how much I love them.
It is Chere Clark and Stace Christensen. Hello. Hello. Hello ladies. Okay. A little shout out to our friend Jenny Reader 'cause she's part of the four of us. We get together often, but first, how do we two know each other? Because Jenny's the reason we all know each other. We know each other through Jenny, right?
Yeah. Yeah. I think that is that Jenny's the one who introduced us. Chere was doing work for Jenny before. Mm-hmm. And this has been all in COVID during COVID. And um, that's when I met Chere. Okay. And I go to Stace's yoga class and it's the best thing ever. And she loves acai bowls and so we love to eat them together.
Yeah. All of those things are true. Oh, we'll talk, we'll talk about yoga today. Don't worry. There's a segment where I got a question for you. Oh. With your yoga. But it's so fun when we get together because fun fact about Stace is that she was one of the earliest female seminary teachers of her time. And then Cherri is a scholar 'cause she helped Jenny with her Emma book and doing all of the research.
So when the four of us get together, we just geek out over scriptures and conference talks and all sorts of stuff. And food is also a really good cook. Oh, thank you. Oh, that's true. That's actually, and I will add too. That is totally true. It is one of my favorite things when we all get together is passion for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I I just love discussing all of that with you guys. It's so much fun. Yeah, we're lifers. I love it. That's true. The other thing about Stace, when you go to her yoga class, she combines the scriptures and gospel truths with yoga and it's the best way to start your morning. I love it. You know, I don't know if you know this tree, but when I had my foot incident all those years ago and I couldn't get up and walk, Stace sent me weekly yoga videos so that I could do yoga from my bed.
You guys are being really nice. We all love yoga. It's so great. Thank you. I didn't until I met you, so I converted. Not sure. I still do. You make me do things I can't do. I'm like, my body doesn't stretch like that, but you know. Here we are. So we are, okay. If you guys wanna know more about my guests, go check out their bios.
It's our show notes. You're gonna find those at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. 'cause listen, we could just sit here and talk for hours as we normally do, but we got stuff to talk about. We do. We gotta get in to the scripture block. So everybody grab your scriptures and let's dig into Exodus chapters seven through 13.
Okay. You two. What did the Holy Ghost teach you as you studied and prepared? Do you wanna start Stace? I will. I will start. So one of the things that was really became really prevalent to me was the theme of recognizing that Pharaoh. Thought well of himself this idea that Pharaohs were deity too. Mm-hmm.
But God, through Moses talks to him in a way that is meaningful for Pharaoh. And, and I guess part of, part of my thinking there is God's not offended that Pharaoh also thought he was a God. And so he took him seriously still as a a person. Oh wow. Talks to him, I think, in a way that's respectful still. And that's really been something on my mind.
So that I actually have two scriptures in the theme of Exodus. 'cause, and I'm saying that because both my scriptures are outside of Exodus. Okay. So the first ones in the doctrine of Covenant section 29, um, because this is how God speaks to us. And you see this, I think in ex these chapters and Exodus. So, um, in 29 verse 33.
Speaking unto you that you may naturally understand. But unto myself, my works have no end, neither beginning, but it is given unto you that ye may understand because you have asked it of me and are agreed. So I think interesting when we want to know the things of God, even though you know clearly we can't understand everything, he's so omniscient, but he will explain things in a way that is understandable for us.
And I really like that. And then I think, um, Nephi actually says it a little more clearly. So Chapter 31, second Nephi, chapter 31, verse three, for my soul, delighteth in plainness, for after this manner, did the Lord work among the children of men? For the Lord God giveth light unto understanding for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.
Hmm. And I love that we can trust God even though our minds may not comprehend everything, he will always talk to us in a way that is accessible for us. And I of course, because he loves us and he wants us to understand and he, he wants to show us things and teach us things. And I just, I think another aspect of God's mercy to me is this.
Yeah. And you really see that with Pharaoh. 'cause Pharaoh does some really offensive things, I think otherwise, yeah. He's just so hardhearted, but that God is never offended by him is, is I think, really impressive. That is so cool. I love that. In fact, the thing that struck me when you were talking about that is God is speaking Pharaoh's language.
Even until the very, very end, and now I'm considering the very last plague was like the ultimate thing that he could do, which was take life as a deity, as a Pharaoh. Mm-hmm. Wow. I've never considered that. That would've had to have been the last thing that he challenged Pharaoh with the ultimate power he would've had.
Which piggyback on, I'm just gonna piggyback the thought on that. And that is, which Pharaoh does at the beginning of Exodus when he kills all the the male children. Yes. So you see brilliant. Kind of come full circle by the time you get to that 10th plague. Love that. Wow so much. You're totally right. Okay, Chere, what about you?
Alright, well, I'll piggyback a little bit on that because I love the idea. Well, first off, didn't the 10 Commandments movie, just keep playing in your head the whole time? Oh my gosh, right. The old one probably watching between this afternoon. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So I was thinking about, you know, Pharaoh and how much God loves him.
He loved him throughout the whole thing, and he continues to give him opportunities to choose him instead. And he's always has his arm extended out to him. And God will take any of those circumstances and. Turn him into a blessing and a wonder in your life. And so I loved how he just never gives up on Pharaoh.
He's just mm-hmm. He's giving him the choice all the time. And I, it made me think of this quote here by, um, president Holland said, the future of the world has long been declared. The final outcome between good and evil is already known. There's absolutely no question as to who wins because the victory has already been posted on the scoreboard.
The only real strange thing in all this is that we are still down here on the field trying to decide which team's jersey we want to wear. Mm-hmm. And so here's Pharaoh. God's giving him the chance. Listen. You can, you can get on board with me. And, and I love how he, he does it with how Stace talked about how it was the, the language that Pharaoh would understand and everything.
Yeah. But you know, he's just so full of pride and stubbornness that, and thought that he could outsmart God, but God is always the final victor. Right. And so, yeah. The, what the, the spirit really taught me is that we have to make sure that we're doing our heart work every day and that the condition of our heart is ready to receive his spirit and his messages and that we're making sure that we have the right team jersey on.
Right. So that's kinda, that's kind of what I was thinking. Ah, I love that you just said, are we doing the heart work? That's what I heard. Are we doing the heart work to follow him? Mm-hmm. You don't even know that the heart was my theme for this whole episode. You don't even know that. That's so crazy. And I love how both of you are on the same page.
That is amazing. Which I love that Chere said that heart work is something we do every day because our heart might be open to the gospel and it might be easy to open your heart towards the scriptures. It may not be easy to open your heart to the neighbor down the street who does things you don't like or has political views that you don't agree with or you don't like how they raise their kids.
I mean, it's, it's, you can have a hard heart towards some things and not everything. And I think to be the opportunity to practice changing the quality of your heart mm-hmm. It's the things that you're hardened about. It's, that is work. Yeah. Well, and from what both of you said, isn't it beautiful to think that God considered all the hearts that were invested in this story?
Yes. Like he, he's got almost when, well, the numbers are awesome because some scholars believe around 2 million Israelites, so we have 2 million hearts. Wow. Who've been sad. 'cause it says there's 600,000 men not counting children and women. And so some scholars think. 2 million. And so you've got 2 million hearts that are in anguish and don't wanna be in enslavement.
You've got the heart of Moses, a prophet who probably just wants to go and get this over with. He's terrified maybe for his own life. But then you have the heart of Pharaoh and the heart of the Egyptians that the Lord's considering and giving chances to not have to have this end so horribly like he's considering every heart.
And I love that. Wow. Thank you for teaching me. That is so cool. Okay, well this is great. We've already learned so much from what you guys have shared, and one of the things that the three of us did in preparation for this episode, the three of us read a talk by Elder Raz Band called By Divine Design. So we are going to invite all of you to read it and be prepared because we wanna show you all the connections that we found with this talk.
And Exodus chapter seven 13. So in the next segment, we're going to start with one of the best quotes that I think is so cool from this talk.
Segment 2
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My question for you guys is this, for this segment is, do either of you play chess? I don't think we've ever talked about this. Uh, I've never played chess. Never Have you just taken the chess pieces and pretended that it was checkers? Yeah. Come on. That's a good way. Yeah. Chess. So my, I have an older brother who was really into chess, uh, when we were like in second and third grade.
He's just a year older than me, so I think I was got to go to chess club with him for a little while. You know, I don't remember anything I learned. I could play chess if I needed to, but like, I, I don't, I, I'm not very competitive, so I, you know, I don't really hate competitive games that much, but, you know, I know what a castle is and I know what a rook is, and I know what a pawn.
Oh, well that's cool. Do you have any life applications to chess? Yeah, I mean all the, the one thing that really came to mind is, and especially I think in relationship to this story, an exodus is um, part of this, what the spirit teaches us to do in life is to be strategic. Mm. I like that. So I think use wisdom and to educate us.
The spirit I think can do both of those things. But to help us pull out and see a perspective like, you know, a chess boards in front of you can see the whole game. So when we pull out a little bit of our situation, we see a bigger picture, I think. Mm-hmm. We can also blis us with more strategic vision and I've certainly had those experiences and feel grateful for 'em.
True. Okay. I'm gonna come back and ask you about an experience then, but not right now. Because let's read this quote by Elder Raban and chess. This is so fun. Cherri, will you read this quote for us, please? Our lives are like a chess board and the Lord moves us from one place to another. If we are responsive to spiritual promptings, looking back, we can see his hand in our lives.
Thank you. And that's something that just blew my mind. This idea of looking back, you can see his hand in your lives. And as the Israelites were going through this, I don't know that they could or, or who was seeing the, the hand of the Lord in their lives because so much was going on. But one of the things I love is how this whole experience between Moses, the Israelites, and the Egyptians begins.
Let's go to Exodus chapter seven, verse five. I want us to mark specifically a word in here, and I wanna tell you about it in Hebrew. Let's start with verse three, and then Cherri, I want you to teach us again the footnote so we can make sure we understand the truth about verse three. So go ahead and do that.
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt, but it should say, and Pharaoh will harden his heart. I said unto thee, and thou shalt multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Yeah, highlight that. 'cause you're gonna see many iterations of the Lord harden, pharaoh's heart.
And just be aware where every time you read that, it's switched. Pharaoh harden to heart, carry on. But Pharaoh shall not harken unto you that I may lay my hand upon Egypt and bring forth my armies and my people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
Thank you. Now, verse four made me think of what you said, Stace, where God can see the whole chessboard. And he's saying, listen, Moses Pharaoh's not gonna let your people go. He just isn't. But then I love verse five that the Egyptians shall know, highlight the word no right there because in Hebrew that word is yaah.
Or like yada, yada, yada, yada. It's YADA yada. And it means to know, perceive, admit, or know by experience. Hmm. And the thing that I love about this translation of this specific no in Hebrew is that it is in a future tense. What it means is that the people will know in the future that I am the Lord. I just love that better than shall know.
I just like they will know. They will come to know that I am the Lord. And so looking back, we can see his hand in the lives of the Egyptians and especially in the Israelites who will know who Jehovah is Through all of these experiences, there's a really good quote. This is by Elder Joseph b Wirthlin Sta, will you read this for us?
He is quoting President Thomas s Monson in a talk called Lessons Learned in the Journey of Life. And here's what he has to say to all of us. There is a guiding hand above all things. Often when things happen, it's not by accident. One day when we look back at the seeming coincidences of our lives, we'll realize that perhaps they weren't so coincidental after all.
Okay, I wanna show you one of the coolest moments in this storyline that gets overlooked, and I wanna start us out with it before we get into this whole plague thing, because the whole point and purpose of the Israelites being freed was so that they could worship the Lord their God, and have a tabernacle and live in the wilderness and all that good stuff.
So this is one of my favorite storylines where I just wonder if the Israelites were like, well, this is, this is odd. I'll just show it to you and I'd love your thoughts. Okay, here we go. Let's do a little scripture chain. Let's go to Exodus chapter three, verse 22. Okay. Exodus chapter three, verse 22. This is when Moses is getting the instruction that he's supposed to go and deliver the Israelites.
The Lord has spoken to him in the burning bush. The Lord has talked to him, and so he says to him, when you go and deliver them, he's, he's told him his name is the I am. And that at the very end of this chapter in Exodus three, after he gets his assignment, then the Lord kind of just sneaks this verse in and I, it's, we're gonna put something next to it.
So verse 22, we read that Chere, but every woman shall borrow of her neighbor and of her that eth in her house, jewels of silver and jewels of gold and reignment. And ye shall put them upon your sons and upon your daughters, and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. So that's the last assignment. You're gonna deliver the Egyptians and make sure all of the Israelites go and borrow all of the jewelry and jewels, and it's actually not borrower.
If you wanna cross out, borrow in verse 22. In Hebrew, it's ask, ask of her neighbor, can I have your jewels and all your precious, fancy things? That's a little crazy. So let's cross reference that verse. Now put Exodus 11 verse two, and let's turn to Exodus 11, verse two. This is at the end of the plagues.
And then we get to the where we're gonna get to the very last plague. But before the last plague happens, the Lord's speaking to Moses and says, okay, here we go. We're about to have the last plague, but before it happens, Exodus chapter 11, verse two, Stace, will you read that E now in the ears of the people?
And let every man borrow of his neighbor and every woman of her neighbor, jewels of silver and jewels of gold. Okay, very interesting, isn't it? So put this next cross reference next to that verse. Put Exodus chapter 12, verse 35. Just turn the page. So Exodus chapter 12, verse 35, the last plague has happened and the Israelites are free to go and look what the Lord says to Moses and look what the people do.
Verse 35, Cherri, will you read that? And the children of Israel did, according to the word of Moses, and they asked of the Egyptians jewels of silver and jewels of gold and T. Okay, now just pause in the storyline right there. What do you think the women, and I would say just the women, but maybe the men, what do you think the Israelites were thinking they were gonna do with like, what was the point of the jewels of gold and silver in just an everyday human mind?
Sell it, put you know, money if they need it for, to trade or whatever. I'm sure they had no idea. Or some kind of adornment maybe. I mean, I, I could be getting off topic here, but some kind of adornment, like we're, but at the, my first impulse is go and go. Well, and we're gonna send you out the door because we're so glad to see you leaving at this point.
You know, like, here's some stuff. Go and take care of yourselves. Like, take our wealth with you. So you have wealth to go, but maybe, I don't know. It could also be, I think, some kind of adornment. Oh, I like that too. Yeah. I remember reading this. I'm like, I was struck by the idea, why does he care if they have jewelry in the wilderness that seems crazy and that it's an assignment from the Lord before it happened, while it's happening at the end of it happening.
So next to verse 35, I have another cross reference. I want you to put Exodus 35 verse 22, but we're not gonna turn there yet because, okay. This may seem obscure and it may seem very bizarre, like why would the Lord have us do this? But if it, if life is a game of chess and he can see the board beginning to end and he knows exactly where he wants his children of Israel to be, then he has a way he is divinely designed this jewelry requirement for something very important coming later.
And we're gonna tell you what that is in the next segment.
Segment 3
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So before we go there and read it, Cherri Cherri thinks she knows Cherri. What's going on here? Well, I'm just thinking about it. And when you talk about it as looking at the whole picture, right? Yeah. I think he's, he's planning ahead for his temple, for the house of the Lord, for the beauty that comes with that.
Yeah. Did you just get chills? Did everybody get chills? I think that's what it's for. I think you are right. Okay. Now this is pretty cool. So in Exodus chapter 35, verse 22, we wanna go there and we're gonna read this verse. It's one of my favorite verses in Exodus, but Stace, I'm so happy you're with us right now because I, we said it earlier, everybody that STAs leads us in yoga class, and Stace does such a good job of making us connect to our hearts.
Tell me, what is the role of the heart in yoga? I mean, the heart is a, it's a, there are several chakras in the body, and the heart is one of those chakras. What's a chakra? A chakra is a bundle of nerves, very literally in your body, okay. That represents some energy source. So your heart is a sacred chakra, and it's connected to the energy, is connected to, in your body is of course, I mean, right.
This is no surprise, the, uh, energy to love and to be open-hearted. You know, I kind of wonder when I was reading these books, because it is believed that Moses wrote Genesis through Deuteronomy, and I am blown away by how many times I've highlighted in pink the word heart. Like Moses loves the heart. He may have been into yoga space, I don't know.
He might have known, he might have been on something about shock. How could he have so many millions of people if he wasn't like meditating? And there you go, yourself. You're totally right. 'cause I call Moses the heart prophet. He speaks so much of the heart. In fact, just in Exodus seven through 13, how many times it says, 'cause Moses wrote this.
So Moses would've said, and Pharaoh hardened his heart. Like Moses wanted us to know that Pharaoh was hardening his heart. Over and over instead of, he could have said Pharaoh was being a jerk, or Pharaoh was being so obstinate, he could have used any other word, but he chose to focus on the heart. So the heart really is meaningful to this storyline.
And so when we look at how the Lord deals with us by divine design and how he wants to get us from point A to point B, there's something about our hearts. And so here he is asking the people, gather up all these jewels along the way as you're about to go into the wilderness. And then we get into the wilderness.
And Moses writes this in Exodus chapter 35, and the cross-reference was two verse 22. And it's so beautiful because you see it a lot. Let's read verse 22 and then we'll mark all the hearts in chapter 35. So verse 22, Chere, since you gave the correct answer, please read that for us. Okay, and they came both men and women, as many as were willing hearted and brought bracelets and earrings and rings and tablets, all jewels of gold.
And every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the Lord. Chapter 35 is the instructions on building the tabernacle and getting it ready. And so he is asking all of those in verse five. Everyone that has a willing heart who's willing to work for the Lord. You see it right there. I love that idea.
Me willing hearted. Tell me what, yes, the willing hearted, that's so important because once we have a willing heart, we will act right And that's that. But it doesn't happen until we have a willing heart. Look at this next heart, then Chere connect it and tell me what you think about this in verse 10. And every wise hearted among you shall come and make all that the Lord has commanded.
I love that. It's so neat. It's everywhere. In verse 21, everyone whose heart has stirred them up, everyone who has his spirit wi made willing that they brought the Lord's offering to work of the tabernacle of the congregation for all his service. And then 25 through 29, ladies, look at those. It talks about an all the women that were wise hearted.
They came to the tabernacle, they wove all the material to make the tabernacle. They sowed. They, I just all look how many times you see heart in 25 through 29, which we'll talk about later when we get to that whole chapter. But I just wanted to point out, there's all of this heart talk. Don't you wanna be one of those wise hearted women?
Oh, oh my gosh. Honestly, can he just called me that? So I think too, it's not an accident that we're introduced to the willing heart before we're introduced to the wise heart. Talk to me. But I think it's a definite connection there. The wisdom comes because our hearts are willing and submissive to God and doing his will.
Mm-hmm. In that set, in that place of intention, when we act according to that attention intention, that God blesses us with his perspective. So we see through the eyes of God, okay, do this for me. Stace. Oh my gosh. I everything you said. So true. Okay, here's what I want you to do then. Look at Exodus chapter seven, verses 13 and 14.
It says, and he hardened Pharaoh's heart, which we now know what it means, that he harken, nod unto them, as the Lord had said. And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. He refuses to let the people go. Stay juxtaposed that then what you're talking to me like, what is, what do we, what does Moses wanna know about Pharaoh's heart then?
Yeah. Well, I think he wants to know how submissive he is or not. I mean, and in my mind, Moses is, he's really looking right? Mm-hmm. I don't think he's making a judgment at the beginning. I think he's it. I think it takes 10 plagues, and I don't know how much time all that takes, but he's observing. But I think he's starting from a place of non-judgment and observation.
I think he knows that Pharaoh, because God has told them that. These things are gonna happen. Pharaoh will know that I, who I am, I am that I am, that I am God. Mm-hmm. We, we have that intention right at the beginning, but will Pharaoh ever come around to seeing that? And I think he actually does see that, but he just can't let go, let go.
Mm-hmm. Of the control or his identity as deity or his slaves, because the, the wealth that they're giving him for free, I mean, there's probably many, many reasons why he, he just can't, he in the end, just can't, he can't do it. Well, I also think too, Moses knows Pharaoh. Mm-hmm. He's his brother. They were raised together.
He has a perspective about Pharaoh that he's probably looking at the Lord going, how is this ever gonna work? You know, this is, this is the Pharaoh I know, and it's, he's never gonna change. No, never. I was struck by how many times, uh, the Talk by Divine Design mentioned the heart. Let's read these three quotes that talks about the hearts and, and again, going through this idea like what are our hearts willing to do?
I thought that was so great, that willing is more important than wise. Never considered that I asked to add to that heart thing. So it's in section 64, verse 34. Behold, and I, I think this is really true and we see this really manifesting in this story. Behold, the Lord require with a heart and a willing mind and willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days.
And to me, I hear the, what is the good of the land? It's the promises of our own covenants that we make today, the promises of, of covenant people that we are endowed. With gifts of God and part of those things, there's, and we've mentioned some of 'em already, you know, there's wisdom and there's knowledge, and there's strength, and there's power, and there's intuition, and there's compassion.
I mean, these are the, these are the endowments that God gives to us when we enter into covenants with him if we do so. And there's, that's a big if, right? If we, the soft tar and, and a willing willingness, you'll notice that language is all the covenants, all of our ordinances willing, they, we, oh yeah.
Heart agency, right? Right. Mm-hmm. Contingent. Mm-hmm. Unwillingness. So, yeah. Wow. And when you consider how willing was important before wise, I mean, Pharaoh couldn't even get to Wise Heart, right? Because there was a roadblock in front of willing, right? Yeah. Wow. Oh, this is such a good discussion. Okay, let's read these quotes and I'd love to know what you guys have to think about this.
And we'll go Chere, and then Stace and then me. Each of us is precious and loved by the Lord who cares, who whispers, and who watches over us in ways unique to each of us. He is infinitely wiser and more powerful than mortal men and women. He knows our challenges, our triumphs, and the righteous desires of our hearts.
He ends with the Lord's hand is guiding you by divine design. He is in small details of your life as well as the major milestones. As it says in Proverbs, trust in the Lord with all vine heart and he shall direct thy paths. And then when we are righteous, willing and able, when we are striving to be worthy and qualified, we progress to places we never imagined and become part of Heavenly Father's divine design.
Each of us has divinity within us. When we see God working through us and with us, may we be encouraged, even grateful for that guidance when our father in heaven said, this is my work and my glory to bring, to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. He was talking about all of his children. You in particular.
I love that. Uh, it makes me think about how, um, desire our desires are so important. Mm-hmm. In order to have this, you know, the trusting in the Lord, because you look at Proverbs that they talk about, I trust the Lord with all thine heart. Yeah. It's your thoughts and your desires precedes the actions. So how much desire makes, uh, makes a difference in his ability to work with you and to have that soft heart.
Oh, I like that. I like that too. I, I think that desire is so connected to what motivates us. Mm-hmm. People don't act if they're not motivated, but desire is a, like we say, a burning desire. Um, there is something in us that ignites and gets us to move us or motivate us to do something. Wow. Absolutely. And when you think about this.
Close to 2 million hearts. In fact, let's go to the verse of scripture where you can find out it's 600,000 people. So you have that marked turn in Exodus, and you wanna look at Exodus chapter 12 and it's verse 37 is where it sort of gives us the main head count of just the men. It says, and the children of Israel journeyed from Ramseys to Suko, about 600,000 on foot that were men beside children.
And scholars say it didn't count women either. And they also say that the head count of men would've only been the, the soldier footmen. So age 18 and up. So when it says children, it's anyone under the age of 18. So that's, so they estimate probably 2 million people, 2 million hearts that had desired and prayed to be delivered.
It's also 2 million hearts. Now look at that first quote, 2 million hearts that the Lord cares about. Mm-hmm. He's whispering to each of them. He's watching over all of us and in ways that are unique to each of us. Like I just think, you know, like, what do you, what is, what do we do all day? What does God do all day?
Like, isn't that the same work? Isn't it? Ultimately what we're doing all day is thinking about other people and what we can do for them. And I think it's easy to start, of course, in your marriage and family and, and kind of move out. But this idea of ministering from President Nelson, I just think that is mind blowing actually.
Me too. That's so customized. It's so customized to all the billions of people on earth, and then all the people before and all the people after us like God is so in the details. And I mean, I know he says that, but when you really stop to consider and just this one story mm-hmm. Um, and what it says about our savior, that they're customized, he's that aware and he's inviting us into that space every day.
And that's the work of the heart that Chere was talking about, I believe. I believe that too. I, I just, I think also that that work of the heart that we have to do, he's constantly giving us opportunities to do that work so we can return to him. He sees what we can become and so that divine design is helping us become what he can see that we can be and what he needs us to be.
Wow. I, I have am feeling the spirit so strong because when you both were talking and Stace when I heard you say like, I've never considered, what does he do all day? I guess I just always thought God was just being a God. Like I didn't ever think, what does he do all day? And when I think about what I do all day, I worry and pray about my kids and my family members, my siblings, my parents all day.
And I guess if I do that all day, I would imagine God would do the same. Praying and thinking about us and divinely orchestrating things to work out for our benefit. Chere, just like you said, heart work. I can't think of a better heart to have on my side than God's. This is so cool. Yeah, I, I think that's all Really.
Wow. It's really, I mean, this is his work and his glory. It is, and, and I think if we're honest, it is our work in glory too. To love people and to love them well. Well, and I love thinking that he doesn't wanna lose one of us, not one of us. He did not wanna lose Pharaoh. He does not wanna lose him. I mean, it breaks his heart to think of, of that.
And so, like I said, his arm is constantly held out to us and said, come, come back. Let me give you another chance. Mm-hmm. Here, I'm gonna put this person in your, in your path in life, or I'm gonna give you this opportunity. Please take it. Let's see if you'll do it. Let come on. Yeah. You can just, I'm just picturing God and our, our heavenly parents driving around in their car cars going, you know, maybe this will work.
Maybe this plague will work. Let's try this plague now. You know, maybe this will help soften his heart. They're giving him so many chances and we love the number 10 in Hebrew Complete, you know, fullness, all of that. So like, oh, I just think that's great. Well, let's try this. Let's give him another chance.
So many chances. Yes. All of that. And again. We look at Pharaoh and we look at how, and go back to the chess game and to every, like, there's the chess game idea, and then there's all the things you just said. There's how Moses and God relate to Pharaoh. Mm-hmm. So he, he's gonna say from the beginning, he doesn't believe, and then he's gonna pull in his magicians, and then he's gonna do, have him do all their tricks.
And then he is gonna have 'em do all their tricks. And I maybe getting ahead, sorry if I am, and then Moses is gonna be, okay, so I see that my, that, that, that my magicians can't keep up and they can't annihilate any of these plagues. So then I have to consider that, yeah, maybe there's something more powerful than me.
Mm-hmm. So then he is like, okay, so if he's more powerful than me, then I'm gonna have Moses come back and say, but can you get rid of the frogs? And Moses says, okay, we'll get rid of the frogs. Like you decide. Yeah. And he said tomorrow. But like each of those strategic negotiation steps, it's all so that Pharaoh can open his heart.
All, every single time it's an invitation. Please soften your heart. Please recognize that there is a God and you'll be wise and good, and your life will be better if you recognize his power in your life. Amen. That's good. I love that. And I think I came across the scripture, um, where Nephi teach us about softening our hearts.
Remember when his, yeah. He learns about his father's vision. He's leaving Jerusalem and he had to change his attitude. He had to have a soft heart. And it said in person, I know, I love that. We forget that we think he was a perfect prophet. Right? Yeah. But he says, having great desire to know of the mysteries of God.
So he has to desire this little seed is planted already. The willingness. Yes, the willingness. Um, wherefore I did cry unto the Lord. Prayed. He prayed unto and, and asked and behold he did visit me and did soften my heart that I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father. Wherefore I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers.
So when we are struggling with that hard heart mm-hmm. Or you know, 'cause we all do that at times and, and it's so nice to think about Nephi struggling with that, having a bad attitude. No, I don't wanna leave Jerusalem. No, I don't wanna leave my friends Dad, are you really having visions? Are you crazy? You know?
Yeah. Yeah. And, and he teaches us, you know, as long as we have that little seed of desire and we're willing to be humble enough to ask the Lord, he will work a miracle in our life and help soften that heart. So I love that. Me too. Thank you both of you for what you shared. We didn't even practice any of this just in case like this is what's so cool about you two.
Like I'm thinking this is like a conversation. People like, and then you say this and you, no, this is just how it works. I love everything you guys shared. So let's do this. In the next segment, let's look at the divine design of the plagues and the order of them, and something really cool about the 2 million hearts that we're also praying to be helped.
We'll do that next,
Segment 4
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to introduce this idea of divine design of the plagues. They weren't just random, they weren't happenstance. Here's a quote from elder Rasband in his divine design talk. Cher, you read this for us please. No trial or calamity can derail God's plan of happiness. Boy, that's like a mic drop moment right there.
Yeah, full stop. Okay, no trial or calamity can derail God's plan of happiness. Now let's you read that and you think, okay, but their happiness will come in the wilderness. But I also think the plan of happiness means now, like sometimes it's okay to ask for happiness now in this moment of your life. And so when you read all of these plagues, my thought was, oh, those poor Israelites, they also had to deal with all of this.
But if you read the fine print, you will actually find out that they were spared from a lot of them. It kind of blew my mind. So let's do the first one. Let's go to Exodus chapter seven, verse 21. Here's one of the first plagues, verse 21, and I'm gonna give you a cross reference or a note to put next to 21.
So Stace, will you read verse 21? Yes. In fact, bracket off verses 17 to 25, it's all the same plague in all of these verses, and Cherri will wait. Read the gist of it. Okay, and the fish that was in the river died and the river stank and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river, and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
Okay, now according to Josephus, I thought this is so fascinating. He writes, such was the River to the Egyptians, but it was sweet and fit for drinking to the Hebrews and no way different from what it naturally used to be. That's sort of a missing truth from the storyline. Yeah, so the blood was fine for the Israelites.
Let's look at another plague where it may have been fine for them. Let's go to Exodus chapter nine verses two through six. So Exodus chapter nine and bracket off two through six. This is the plague of the livestock, but how interesting in verse six. So the livestock died, but Chere, we read verse six. And the Lord did that thing on the morrow and all the cattle of Egypt died, but of the cattle of the children of Israel died, not one.
Wow. Very cool. Let's do another one. Let's do hail and fire coming out of the sky. This is in chapter nine and it's verses 23 through 26. So bracket off 23 through 26, and you can just put hail and fire coming out of the sky. Okay. Will you read 25 and 26 Stace and the hail Smo throughout all the land of Egypt, all that was in the field, both man and beast, and the hail Smo, every herb of the field and break every tree of the field.
Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was their no hail and Goshen is the land. It's the part of Egypt where the Israelites were dwelling. That's where they all lived. Let's do another one. Let's go to Exodus chapter 10 verses 21 through 23. Bracket that off. This is the thick darkness.
So thick. So dark. In fact, in verse 21, it was so dark that said the darkness could be felt. I can't even imagine that kind of dark. It could be felt and it was so thick in the land of Egypt for three days. That's what it says in verse 22. But Sree read verse 23. They saw not one another. Neither rose any from his place for three days, but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
Okay, talk to me. What are you thinking? Well, just the idea of Christ and light, you know, and having that, that he showing I'm still with you by that symbol of light. Mm-hmm. He's letting them know. I love that idea. Well, I think too, that the Lord protects us when we have a relationship to him. It may not look this.
Um, like obvious. Yeah. Talk to me about that you two, because there's a lot of people who are like, but the Lord didn't protect me, or My house did burn down. Like, talk to me about how we reconcile this. So one way I rec reconcile that is I think the Lord may not protect us from every ill thing or every bad thing in a fallen state.
Like that doesn't seem like why we're here. It's, we're not here to sort of have an easy life. I think we are here to be tested and tried and I think we're here to learn and I think we're to learn sorrow and suffering and happiness and joy and peace of mind and the savior and all, all so many things.
But I think what we're also here to learn is how to, um, problem solve. How to spirit guide us, how to learn to have compassion and understanding for someone because we've had suffering too in our lives. Even though the suffering might be different or how to be resilient like you, you know, they, everyone has troubles.
Everyone has parts in times in their life where they, you know, they, they don't wanna get outta bed in the morning or whatever. But when you have the spirit with you and you turn to the Savior and you turn to your Heavenly Father, he will answer your prayers. And it may not be exactly how you want, and it may not be the exact answer, but he will lead you to a place, I wanna say, promised land.
He will lead you to a place where he knows you will be happy. And again, those, those hard lessons are customized. Um, but this, and the strategy is customized, but so are the blessings. Yeah. And I think people who don't believe in God or who they stop believing in the Savior, um, they're missing out on that relationship and walking that journey together of seeing and seeking God's hand in their life in a very real way.
Mm-hmm. That's, that's a, and, and in my, in my mind, I believe these things when the spirit guides me to be more resilient or the spirit guides to me to be more understanding of somebody. These make my life all easier. Yeah. Like get the inspiration that might come totally out of the blue, that's completely outside of my own self, you know, that.
But in addition to that, there's this stable, steady source that's always available to me that makes my life much easier. And in the midst of really difficult situations, you can still feel peaceful and even a sense of joyfulness. Wow. Oh, for sure. Because, you know, I'm thinking of Moses, like if I were writing this narrative, if I was Moses, I'd be nervous to include those parts for the Israelites.
'cause I would be like, well, not everybody is spared, not every, like, I'm thinking like, what was Moses' point then? Why did he wanna include the, the little verse after the, oh, the Israelites were spared. What was his purpose like? Talk to me about that. Or Sre tell me more of your thoughts. You were thinking.
Well, I was kind of thinking that we are here to have faith and if everything works out perfectly, how do we show our faith? How do we, how do we choose God? And that's the whole idea here, is that Moses is asking us to choose Jehovah and to have faith and trust in him. And, and Jehovah kept showing them over and over, I've got you, I've got your back.
I'm gonna take care of you. And. For them, it was really hard for them to trust that, you know, they constantly were like, no, Moses, why did you do this to us? Right. Trusting God was such a hard lesson for them to learn for so long. But in order to, to, um, really show our faith, we have to have hard things to happen to us.
But then that's the whole purpose of covenants, right? Is that mm-hmm. We, we've covenanted to just stay firm and steadfast and put our faith in God and in his plan, and know that it's not over until the end and then God's gonna make it. Right? Yes. And, and it's not always, you know, as easy as we think it's gonna be, but it's not over until that happens, until the end comes and we're happy.
Well, I just had a connection to the way earlier we talked about how we're a big chess board and God has the luxury of seeing the entire chess board, is what you guys had said earlier. Yeah. And now I'm, I'm connecting it to what you just said, Chere, because you're, you know what? You're right. Here are the children of Israel, and Moses is pointing out their wins along the way, sort of like how he does in our own lives.
Um, and I've always challenged, and I'm trying to do this myself, to have a journal of greatest hits, greatest spiritual moments in my life, so that when it is really hard, I can go back and go, okay, but wait. He was here with me along the way in da dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I wonder if the Lord's trying to give him these wins to go it, like you said, Cherri, I am helping you.
I am. Because as soon as they cross the Red Sea and they watch it swallow up the Israelites, immediately the first thing they do is turn to Moses and go, well, we're thirsty. And they start to murmur and they go, where are we? We're parched. We could use some liquid. You know, did you bring us out here to die?
Yeah. Yeah. Like, and then like, oh, and we're hungry. Like could we get some food? And then, you know, it's amazing how that, how many times they murmured. And we've said this before and it's always my favorite saying about this whole storyline is that it was easier to get the children of Israel out of Egypt than it was to get Egypt out of the children of Israel.
Yeah, absolutely. And I just wonder if maybe when we do have divine dev divinely protection from the Lord, it's sort of his way of just saying, I'm gonna give you a win. 'cause boy, it's gonna be hard. You're gonna be in the wilderness and you're need to remember I protected you from water. Being blood.
Isn't that interesting? First thing they want is water. And it's the first miracle he performs for them where their water was fine. Yeah. It's just, I'm now connecting all of these things. I've loved how we've discussed this. You know, here's a really cool side note, by the way. Every single plague. That attacked the Egyptians, was it directly connected to one of the gods they believed in?
There's a frog God, there's a lice God, there's a hail God. It blew my mind. Uh, Don Perry taught me that if you wanna go watch it, it's on the YouTube series, Jesus Christ in scripture for this whole series. And Don Perry teaches about how every one of their gods completely got deflated by Moses' God saying, yeah, I can beat that, or I can do that.
Oh, it blew my mind. Kind of. Cool. So I That's a great comment. I, I went, 'cause I knew the Nile was a god for the Egyptians. Yep. I was like, oh, he started with challenging the exact, like all kinds of deity, so mm-hmm. If thought he was deity, he's challenging Pharaoh. And if Nile was a God, then he's challenging that.
Like he really was sending a very specific, again, customized lesson for the Egyptians. Like who he was was all very, yeah. And of course the other scripture that keeps coming to mind because you guys keep talking about faith and everything, especially Chere, which I love is, um, just, you know, Alma mm-hmm.
Just on my words. And I think of all the people in this moment who are gonna listen to this podcast who may be struggling with their faith. And I just invite, I wanna invite them specifically into that space. Just experiment. Yeah. You, you could, anything that's comfortable for you, just experiment upon God's word.
See if he isn't good for his word, because I think it would be hard to refute, you know, it's, it may not come quick. It may not come in 40 seconds, it might be 40 days, I don't know. But experiment and then look, look and seek for a meaningful experience that will, will resonate with you. And I think God will, I think God will answer those prayers.
That's a great invitation. Well, I, I think too, when we're, we're talking about this divine design idea and, and the whole God seeing the big picture, we have that opportunity by going back and reading our patriarchal blessings. Totally. And seeing, oh, that experience just was, that blessing that's come to pass.
That little prophecy in my blessing came to pass. You know, and you can start seeing where God's hand really had been in their lives and in your life. And however, and I, I think that's kind of our chess board right? Is our patriarchal blessing in a way. So, oh, that's cool. I'm writing that down. Okay. Wow.
The other thing, I don't know how, I don't know if you're gonna get into this at another point, so stop me if I start moving too far ahead or whatever. Okay. This idea of divine design and, um. It also has another yoga element to it. Oh, neat. Trying to cost this out there too. Just sort of something to think about.
But, um, in, in, in yoga language, when we use the word dharma, it means a coupling of two things. And we have in the church a really good idea about the measure of our creation. That's, that is one half of dharma. But one of the things that dharma specifically means is, um, that there is suffering in the world.
And I would say it like this, in my church of Jesus Christ, of latter-day Saint language, we are in a fallen state. And because we're in a fallen state, there will be suffering. And it's sometimes it's horribly unfair. Mm-hmm. But this idea of dharma means that God knows that there's gonna be suffering and he will call and prepare people with a specific skillset to help alleviate that suffering.
And I just don't know how you can miss that. Moses is doing this, but he's not the only one in the story doing this. And of course it's, it's, he's doing it in a really big and magnificent way. And of course it's so many parallels between his, his rescuing and pulling people out of bondage the children of Israel.
And I think probably some of the Egyptians, you know mm-hmm. Converted by the end of this experience. 'cause they're like, go leave your God is really powerful. Like, just, you know, we get it. And, um, yeah, there were some for sure here and, um, and Christ and his ability to rescue us from any kind of bondage when we're in slavery to ourselves, typically a mindset or a belief, uh, something that's false, that we think is true.
Um, and I, I, I really love the little stories. You know, there's Moses's mom who was gonna save him. She, she had a dharma she was called. It's a great way to look at that. Down the river there. And she didn't want him suffering that death of all the children, the male children. And then there was Miriam who made sure that he not only got into the arms of the daughter of Pharaoh.
Yeah. But also she comes back into the picture when she's, she recognizes who he is and she recognizes him as the rescuer and the, the redeemer. Right. And then there's Pharaoh's daughter. Yeah. And then there's Pharaoh who allows her to keep the baby and raised him amongst, uh, the is or the Egyptians in such a way that, that Pharaoh and Moses are, like Cherise said earlier, like familial, like they have a familial relationship.
They are like brothers. Yeah. Who could have had open door policy to the palace of Pharaoh's court. You know? I mean, he was just showing up. I wanna talk to Pharaoh. I'm pretty sure that wasn't. Like a normal right in everybody. Right? And so you look at all the, all the man, even Aaron. Mm-hmm. He recognizes them as a re rescue and as the one that they're looking for.
And I just think there's so many people who play that kind of role in this whole story. And probably stories we don't even get or know about. Mm-hmm. Idea of divine design. We see it not only with the plagues and not only with Moses, but all these other people that are contributing. That are obviously pieces, if you wanna use the, the, the, um, analogy in a, on a chess board, strategically by God's hand.
And there's so much joy that comes to each of them when they're willing to follow what God is asking them to do. Yes. So I wanna take what you said about this idea of suffering. Thank you for teaching us that, that dharma, 'cause I've never known that word, but yeah, you can absolutely see that in this storyline, in the storyline of Joseph.
You see that you, you see that over and over again in the Old Testament, but it's not in a vacuum. Like it doesn't just happen in the Bible, but it happens in all of our lives. And this idea that there is human suffering. And with that human suffering comes the opportunity for growth and to really lean into our savior Jesus Christ.
And so in, let's do this. In the next segment, we're gonna talk about the final plague and something significant that the Israelites were required to do to have divine design protection. We'll do that next.
Segment 5
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So in the last segment, we talked about many of the plagues and how the Israelites were spared. Now this final plague, I love the wording in this scripture. So let's turn in our scriptures, go to Exodus. Let's go to Exodus chapter 11, verses five through seven. The final plague is going to be a death of the firstborn.
So bracket verses five through seven, there's the death of the firstborn. And I love how verse seven says, what will the Israelites will experience? So the death of the firstborn in all the land of Egypt throughout the whole land is in verse six. But verse sevens interesting Cherri, we read that, but against any of the children of Israel, shall not a dog move his tongue against man or beast that ye may know how the Lord doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
Okay, so he's going to put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel, but will you too, please tell me, based on your study of Exodus chapter 12, what were the Israelites required to do for this one? Because all the other plagues, it seems like the Lord was just protecting him, but for this specific protection, what did they have to do?
It goes back to your word, Chere. My word of willing. They had to be willing to do what the Lord, what Moses told them to do as a prophet. Mm-hmm. He's showing them how he, you know, how, what you need to do. Just like we have that same idea of if we turn to our prophet, he will show us how to have peace and protection.
And this is what Moses did in, in teaching them about, um, sacrificing the lamb and then painting the, the doorframes with the blood of the lamb. Yes. And having the Passover mill also share with me what you marked in chapter 12. What are the connections or divine design moments of that? So one of the things I thought was interesting, well, of course the lamb had to be unblemished, right?
All these symbols in firstborn that are to Christ is reminders, right? So we're, they're, they're very much in my mind, like ordinances and we see that word popping up here. But the word that I thought was interesting is 13 token. Ooh. And I love that. So we, we associate that with a temple, right? A sign or a token.
Mm-hmm. And this just this symbolic act of entering, like you're doing something. God is asking you to do something. He's not asking you to believe something. He's not asking you to be a witness. He, he wants you to move your faith to. A place where you're actually doing something that you may not understand exactly why you're doing it, but you know, it relates somehow as a memorial or an ordinance or a token or a sign of the savior.
Oh, yes. In fact, above chapter 12, I just put heart work. Chapter 12 was heart work for the Israelites. It was not easy to find a lamb. No. Who was male unblemished to kill it, to save the blood, to put it on your doorpost, to rig your entire house of leaven to then get bread ready without yeast to get your shoes on.
I like, that was interesting. Tell 'em to put their shoes on and be ready to go because when this comes down, you're outta here. I mean, the trust leave ancient. Yeah. Oh, but also they were, they were, um, inside their dwellings or their houses as families. Mm-hmm. So there was that idea of. The parents or the people that were, I dunno, I wanna say in charge or whatever.
'cause maybe they were caring for the elderly and also caring for their children or whatever. They had to do something to protect their families. Well, it made me think as I was reading this and that at, like Stace said, they're in there as families and the, they were told that they need, in order to save the firstborn, the parents needed to go out and, and keep that commandment of painting the, the door with the blood.
And the firstborn could not do that. The parents had to do it for them. They had to be obedient to that. And because of that, that's what was, they were doing the best thing that they could do for their child. And so when I was thinking about that and. How it applies to my life now. Yeah. The best thing I can do for my children, especially those that are wandering away, is to stay steadfast, to keep my commandments to, to stand by the tree, Asya said, and not, not leave it.
And I think that's the whole idea, that there's promises that are given in our covenants, and that's what Moses taught them too, that there's promises if you obey and do what he, that covenant, and that's what we need to do to save our own families. The best thing that we can do. Oh, I'm so grateful that you brought families back into this because I, I love that what you just taught us.
That the parents put the blood over the doorpost and it protected their family and they all made it outta the wilderness. And guess what? Then the kids were naughty. Like it didn't protect them from agency. No. It just protected them from that specific moment in their life. And I think every parent does that and they do it so well and it has protected your family at that specific time in their lives.
You did that raising your children. You put the blood over your doorpost as you taught them the gospel of Jesus Christ as you got them baptized, as you help them enter the world of young women's and everything. And, and when they leave your home or they, and they go into the wilderness. Yeah. And then, and then it just, the life plays out and they enter their own little chess board by divine design where the Lord gets to work on them and move them around their chess board to get them to the exact point where they need to be.
I'm so grateful you brought that up. 'cause I think sometimes we think as parents, I did the blood on my doorpost and my kids messed up. Right. We don't think that was the point. It just. It's our covenants. We keep, we keep those covenants and we just keep trusting the Lord. And like I said, it's not over until it's really over.
And that Yes. And that it will all work out. So two ideas. One, I love you keep saying it's not over till it's over. And I'm not gonna think about the fat lady singing right here. My daughters always say it's not over. It's, it's, they always go, um, everything works out in the end. And if it hasn't worked out, it's not the end.
Not the end for sure. Nothing. Yeah. What, or one my thought there is, is there really gonna be an end? No. Like the, what we think of is the end is really the eternal beginning, right? Oh yes. So I think that that, that, that's just, that's a really important element I think. Yeah, it might be the end here or of this thing, but the end of something is always the eternal beginning of something else, you know?
So like that. We keep moving forward. You know, I, I like put that idea of progression. But the other thing that I just feel burning to say is, um, that I love about chapter 12 is, you know, we know the children of Israel. We know their big group. But you know, this idea that he breaks it down so carefully that there each family, each doorpost, each dwelling.
But also in 16 or chapter 12, he talks about the phrase is There shall be a holy convocation. Oh, act me about that. Of course, there's a footnote that says assembly. But really I think one of the things that that is also reminding us of is there is this larger community that we will always have, whether our family members stray, which can be heartbreaking.
Right. And it can be lonely. It can be lonely. Mm. But there is a holy convocation of people of believers. God wants us to gather with those people. And I'm just gonna say this because we're, this is sort of the grand idea of gathering, right? I mean, it is upwards and stakes, but also now as a global church, one of the thoughts that I had about this section of scripture is, um, do we see this kind of manifestation of God's power?
I haven't seen a plague. You know, I've had been in a, a cloud of mosquitoes, but I didn't really think of it as a plague, maybe, you know? Um, and I have never had my cattle die. And, you know, there's a lot of things I haven't really seen my child, my first child is still alive and well, and having her first child, you know, and, um, but then I, I, so I was like, maybe we just don't see that stuff today.
But then I, I was talking to Chere earlier. Um. It kind of, this, the experience came like a couple of days when I was sort of rolling all of this around in my brain as I was doing my Oh yeah. Warm in scripture study. Um, and reading about the gathering. And really the manifestations that we see of God's power today are on a much bigger scale.
And if you're paying attention, these plagues are nothing compared to the 17 million members of the church, which has never existed, or the almost a hundred thousand missionaries, you know, that we've never had on the planet, or the amount of temples and people entering into those covenants. Mm-hmm. And had the chance we're the first dispensation who have had this endowment and this covenant to enter into a God because he knew we needed it.
Like suddenly the manifestation of God's power to unite individuals to a collective or holy convocation. That is a miracle like the plague can't even hold a candle to that. None of 'em. Mm. That was powerful truth. You just taught it is. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so let's take this divine design theme and in the last segment we're going to see if or how divine design has played a role in the lives of my guests.
We'll do that last,
Segment 6
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I have one more quote from this talk by Elder Rasband and then I'm gonna ask you to, do you guys have a story that proves the statement of divine design? Here's the quote. I'm gonna read it 'cause you guys are gonna share stories, I hope. I don't know. I just asked 'em to come prepared. We'll see what they got.
Elder Rasband said this. What should you be looking for in your own life? What are God's miracles that remind you that he is close saying, I am right here. Think of those times some daily, when the Lord has acted in your life and then acted again. Treasure them as moments. The Lord has shown confidence in you and in your choices, but allow him to make more of you than you can make of yourself on your own.
Treasure, his involvement. Sometimes we consider changes in our plans as missteps in our journey. Think of them more as first steps to being on the Lord's errand. Okay. You too. Do you have a story about that quote or a divine design in your life? I actually thought a lot about this and the, and the thought kept coming to me.
The experience that kept coming to me was when I was 14 years old, my family was um, um, sent to Little Rock, Arkansas. My parents were mission leaders there, and that was. Extremely, extremely hard. It was, it was very difficult. And for years I have asked and thought, why did that happen in my life? What did I gain from that?
And um, just in the last, I'd probably say the last 10 years, I've really understood more of that idea of the, of the divine design that happened with that and what it did for me, because I saw God's hand so many, many times in my life with just little things. And for one simple thing was that first night we got there and I was just so sad.
And we're in this new house and in the new bedroom and it was just different. And it was weird. And I opened up a drawer and the drawer was. Filled with there had it been hundreds of new eras from all over the, from years and years, and I loved to read. I was a voracious reader when I was young, and that simple thing for, I was able to just read.
Those magazines, that new era and the stories and everything every day. That, and, and because of that, it kept me from spiraling down into the darkness, um, those first few months of why we were there. And then a couple of years later, I was 16 and I was at a regional conference and I had the opportunity to meet president, um, Kimball and Sister Kimball and President Kimball came right up to me and he just gave me the biggest hug.
And he said, come and eat lunch with Sister Kimball. And I, we need to know how you're doing. I know that this is so hard. Come talk to me and tell me how you're doing that. I know. And, and you need to know that the Lord loves you and recognizes what this is. Been like for you? I have never felt so seen and knew that God knew like to have this, I, I towered over him 'cause I'm five, 10 and a half.
Yeah. And he was like five foot I, but he just let me know that God knew who I was and that I was, that he, he saw me. And then when I got home, I came home for my senior year and. I met a boy there at the high school that also was brand new that senior year, and that boy ends up becoming my husband, and I don't think I would've given him the time of day if we hadn't both been new into that high school that year and that we were meant to be together.
And so I. I realized from all of that and thinking about that experience, those three years in Arkansas and everything that it solidified my testimony of, of the gospel and of the reality of God. And I could never deny it 'cause I was witnessed so many little miracles and wonders in my life. And that I knew that he knew me and that he had a plan for me and that I could trust him.
And I, I always felt that way, but it took me a while to look back and think, well, that's how I came to really know that is because of those experiences. So yes, he has been and in my life all the time, and I'm so grateful for him. Yes, divine design, Chere, I love that story. I didn't know that about your husband.
That's fantastic. Not funny. Yes. That's divine design right there. Love it. I did not that story either, but I love that story. Mm-hmm. And I love that you see his hand in all of that. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty great. Okay, so I am really struggling. So I've been struggling all day to try and figure out what story I wanna share.
And like, I've had a couple ideas, but even just as Chere was speaking, my mind suddenly went to a new place. I was gonna share a story in the past, but then I didn't feel comfortable. And the spirit, I felt kept saying, do something current, do something current. And I had a story, but now that's not the right story.
Now I have another story that I'm gonna share. Okay. Um, because I just learned something right this second. So, um, so a little bit of background. My dad was not active when I was growing up and he was, um, pretty disconnected from our family until he was really disconnected from our family. But he had two really brief periods of time where he was.
One when him and my mom, they were married. They were married a couple years, and then my older brother and I were born and they were sealed in the temple. And then my dad left the church. And then another really brief period of time where right after I came home from my mission, um, he was active and this particular event happened.
Right after I came home from my mission and he'd started coming back to church and I had gotten really sick that I didn't know I was really sick, and it just came on super suddenly. We were, I was living in California, that's where I'm from and grew up and we were driving back to BYU and it was my little sister was coming with us, so we're moving her.
She was a freshman that year and um, I was a junior and I got really sick. We were crossing the Mojave Deseret, her and I in her little Volkswagen Rabbit and there was no AC and it was like 118 degrees outside or something crazy. It was August and um, I just thought I was dehydrated and kind of sick.
Anyway, long story short, I ended up not sleeping that well that night. We were in Cedar City. And I woke up in the morning and was feeling pretty crappy, like I had a bad flu. And um, I woke my mom up and I was like, I don't really feel that good. Like the sooner we get on the road, probably the better so I can get back to my apartment and kind of rest.
And she was like, okay, like let's get ready. And I, I was in the bathroom, you know, with a heat lamps that they used to have in the bathrooms, then hovered with blankets and I was standing on the toilet and trying to get warm and she's like, uh, this isn't normal, so weirdly. And she was like, we're taking you to the hospital.
I was like, well that seems a little extreme. And um, but she was pretty sure, I'm pretty convinced that that's the right thing to do and I was pretty sick. So at that point I kind of didn't care. I was pretty miserable. And she took me into the emergency room and after about two hours of diag, you know, them trying to figure out what was wrong, I had a really high white blood cell count and I ended up with a staph infection that this resident at the time in Cedar City Hospital had totally diagnosed.
Was came in and told me, you know, they're pumping me now with antibiotics, but that day he was like, you were about 10 hours of leaving this earth. Wow. I was 26, so I was, that was a really old person to be a junior. I get that. But I was gonna speak forever and, um, I was shocked. Of course I was, I thought I had the flu or you know, just dehydrated or something.
And before my parents left to take my sister back up while I was in the hospital and recovering, they were moving her back up 'cause she had to be there. My dad gave me a blessing in this really brief amount of time that he felt comfortable doing that. And here I go. Um, in this blessing, he said that I would, I would live and that I would, my life would be spared so that I would have the opportunity to teach multitudes.
When I got hired as a seminary teacher, I really thought that was it. And then got to know John, by the way, and he hired me to do EFY and I was doing a lot of outreach for youth conferences. Then I don't think they even do that program anymore. I, and I taught seminary and I worked at BYU in the religion department and taught release time seminary again as a substitute teacher.
So 15 years altogether, maybe 16. Anyway, in and out of CES, you know, as parenthood, motherhood would allow or whatever, and thought that part of my life was over and until right now. Wow. And I realize just being here on this podcast is part of that fulfillment, that, that blessing when I absolutely, 20 years later, whatever, that that part of my life was over.
You never went, oh my gosh. I, I, I did not know that story. I'm so glad you lived. Wow. By divine design, both of you. Thank you. Thank you for ending this whole episode with proof that there is divine design in all of our lives, and that life is a chess board, but God oversees it and he is aware of our hearts and he is moving us to the exact place he needs so that in the end, the Queen is protected.
Just like my sweet Queen Chere and Stace. Thank you so much. Okay. Gather your thoughts and tell me what eternal truth did you learn today? What's something that you just will take away from our discussion? Okay. I'm gonna go first here. Okay. I really love Cher's thought that we stay by the tree, you know, whoever it is that we love.
If they've been a member of the church and they've wandered away, one, I have such a testimony that God watches over our loved ones and that we don't have to worry about them or fret over them. Their agency is intact, and that's really important for their growth. So it can be a scary place as a parent, but, or you know, a loved one.
But, um, God's in charge and he is, and you know, he, he has the big picture and he's, he cares about them more than we do. I think that's possible. That's hard to believe, but maybe possible. And, um, I love her connection to, so as parents, as loved ones, we never leave the tree. That's not the powerful place. Go.
It feels like you wanna wander off and go save and rescue, right? But one, we aren't the savior, we aren't the rescuer to redeem. That's not our job and we can't do it anyway, even though we might want to or think we can. And that as parents, it's really important to be stable and steady and yeah, to represent the savior that way, I think on earth.
Covenants is your blood on the doorpost? That's so cool. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Stace. Um, I, the thing that has really struck me is what Stace's talked about on when we were talking about doing the heart work and that in order to have a willing heart. The willing comes before wisdom. And we all want a heart full of wisdom, but without being willing to do what, what, um, Christ asks us to do, to act and, and to move forward with the simple things of, you know, just the primary answers of prayer and, and temple attendance and church attendance and, and you know, just those simple things that we're asked to do.
Scripture study that shows a willing heart. And because of that, the atonement works into works in our life. And the way we see that is through the Holy Ghost and his spirit giving us the wisdom that we need to move through this life and to, um, become what he knows we can become and what he needs us become.
He needs us to, to be. That person for him. So I love that idea to just have that willing heart so you can have that wisdom that we so desire. Oh, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. My takeaway is starting with you, Chere, just that idea that life is a chess board and the our patriarchal blessing is an example of that and how God sees the big picture.
And then Stace I loved when you said, I mean, what do we think he does all day? Just heavenly father, just looking over that chess board and carefully managing it for us and giving us opportunities to grow closer to him. So because, and then I loved it, we're doing the heart work. Are we, are we doing the heart work required to in the end?
Um, know that he is God no. Future tense. So thank you to both of you. That was so great. Gosh, I love you too so much. I love you too. Fantastic. It was so fun. I learned, I learned so much from you guys every time we're together. I know it's ridiculous. So much, so many notes. Thank you. Well, what eternal truth did you learn?
What is a takeaway from this discussion? Go join our group on Facebook and follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned. And then throughout the week, we're gonna post a question from this discussion. And here's the question that I want to know. Out of the 10 plagues, which is the one that you would want the most divine protection from, go ahead and share your thoughts.
You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday, and go there anyway, because it's where we're gonna have links to all the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion and some of the notes that we've shared.
So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written in, hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our just Best Friend Study Group participants. Were Chere Clark and Stace Christensen. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.
Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember, you really are God's favorite.