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Segment 1
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I have such a good story. I've never shared this on the podcast, and this is pretty fun. So right after I graduated from college, I took a trip to Spain, and my friend and I found this restaurant, and my eyes lit up when I saw that they had onion rings. So of course, I ordered a large with a side of ketchup.
Now, I noticed that the people working there kind of gave me this odd look when I asked for ketchup, and I thought, "Well, maybe it's an American thing." So I got my order with my ketchup, and with absolute delight, I bit into that delicious deep-fried covering, only to find out, oh, they weren't onion rings.
It was calamari. Fried squid. I was devastated and totally grossed out because I hate seafood so much. Have you ever eaten something that wasn't as good as it looked? Have you ever been duped? Oh, my goodness. Appearances can be so deceiving, and that's the theme of this week's Come, Follow Me lesson on 1 Samuel 8-10, 13, 15-16.
And in fact, that's gonna be my question for the week. When has food deceived you? We're gonna apply that whole thing to our lesson this week, and I think you're gonna enjoy it. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.
I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend, Becky Allred. Becky, I loved meeting you and your friend at Women's Conference.
Now, the best thing about this study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different each week, and today is different. I've never had these two on, and I've been wanting them on for many, many years. They finally agreed. That's what they get for coming to visit me in Pocatello, Idaho.
It's Bart and Angela Caspersen. Hello, you two. Hello. Hello. Okay. Here's my favorite story. So I had to drive up to Pocatello, Idaho, to do a book signing, and I just put on my social media, "Hey, if you're in the area, come say hi." Well, Bart and Angie, not only did they come and say hi, they brought me a bag filled with crackers, Diet Coke, chocolates, and cheese for my drive home.
You guys are the best. One cheese lover to the best. Seriously, you made my drive completely worth it. I love you two. Tell us how you two met. What's your story? Um, well, we actually met at a YSA activity playing mud football. Ooh. But we didn't actually meet each other, but that was our first- Encounter Our first encounter Um, and then we'll just say I watched from the distance for a while.
I had my eye on him before he had his eye on me. Sure. But I definitely got his attention when I used the reasoning that I needed to find his roommate for a family home evening activity. So I followed Bart in his car. He passed me on the street, and I followed him to find out where he lived. Well played.
Yeah. Well played. And I was- Sure ... driving down the road, and I couldn't find his car. And I was just driving past a house, and I saw it. It was pulled back in behind, you know, the house, long driveway. And so I thought, "Well, there he is." He was standing in the window and watched me back up to park and back into his neighbor's truck.
Oh, shoot. Yeah. Were you dying? So, yeah. It was pretty traumatic, and that's That's how I got his attention though. Wow. So that was what, in... Well, that was probably in October. First date was in January. We were engaged in March and married in June. How about that? And I was in Idaho, and last thing I wanted to do was stay in Idaho, 'cause I'm not from here.
Oh. But- Where are you from? I'm from Cardston, Alberta. Oh my gosh. Originally. And I didn't wanna be here very bad. I was homesick, and then, yeah, here I've been for 30- Eight years ... eight years. Um, Bart, I need to know your take on that story. What did you think when she hit the car? I laughed. I, I, I, I r- I ran out there, and I didn't, uh...
to make sure she was okay, and when she was okay, and, uh, I just laughed. That's a characteristic my mother, uh, uh, did. When there was something funny, you laughed. Mm-hmm. And, uh, boy, I laughed. And I cried, 'cause that's what I do, so you know. Of course you cried, 'cause I'm sure all y- like me, I would've just seen dollar signs.
Oh. I would've been embarrassed and like, "How am I gonna afford this?" Oh. Well, and then I had to call my mom and dad, and it was- Mm-hmm ... you know, long distance, and that was a mess, but- But it was worth it in the end ... well, it- Look at you two ... it's worth it in the end. Yeah. So you've been married 38 years. Do you have kids, grandkids, what?
We have four children. We have, uh, seven grandchildren. Oh. Two of them are step-grandchildren, but I don't refer to them as that. Like, they're just my grandkids. Absolutely. We just don't get to see them very often. They're in Europe with their mom. They're teenagers. Oh. Adult teenagers. So we don't get too many experiences with them, but the ones we have had have been wonderful.
How neat. Yeah. Aw, and I bet you're the best grandparents ever. We do love it. We just had our newest grand-baby just- Three weeks ... three weeks ago. So. Oh, congratulations. Yeah. Thanks. Yep. So fun. Okay. Well, this is gonna be a fun discussion. Um, I am really looking forward to it actually, and what these two have to share.
With 38 years of marriage and more life experience, it's no doubt going to be a good one. And we're actually, at the very end, I'm gonna end with that question, if you've ever been duped by food, if you've had a calamari experience similar to mine. So be thinking of that. I wanna know. So if you wanna read more about my guests and see their bios and a picture of them, go to our show notes.
Go to ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. So everyone, grab your scriptures, and for sure something to mark them with, and let's dig in to 1 Samuel chapters 8 through 10, 13, 15, and 16. All right, you two. First things first, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were preparing for this episode? The thing that I took from it is how faithful Samuel was.
Wow. He stayed faithful to his calling from the Lord even though- His sons weren't like him Oh But he stayed faithful. Can you share the verse with us that shows that? Yeah. It's in 1 Samuel 8:1-3. "And it came to pass when Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel. Now the name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second Abiah.
They were judges in Beersheba. And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre and took bribes and perverted judgment." Sorry, I'm a crier. Tell me why it's tender for you I think because we all have experiences where we have those that we love that, gratefully I don't have any that are bribery and, you know- Sinker
but that make different choices than we think. Mm-hmm. And sometimes that's hard. Yeah. I'm so glad that stood out to you because it did to me too. Uh, was I was preparing and reading again, I'm like, "How have I missed that so many times?" But again, it, it's life situations, and you read things differently. And- Yeah
I thought of too his poor wife, like Samuel's wife. Obviously, there is one or he wouldn't have children, and I just think of these two just probably crying and praying over their sons. And it's a prophet. Yes, even a prophet struggles. Don't you love that? Yeah, and, and this is not a new story. I mean- Right
we see it in every book in scripture, and we see it now. And, uh, and we, I mean, we heard it from President Oaks, I think, in conference talking about the challenges. Mm-hmm. And others have talked about their challenges or with family and, you know- Yeah ... the stress that happens. Oh, I'm so glad you shared that.
Thank you for bringing that up, Angie. And how beautiful that we're gonna start out the discussion about Samuel now as a prophet, knowing that that's part of his lens, that he's gonna view everything with this little bit of a heartache. And, uh, that, that kind of ch- for me changes the storyline a little bit, so thank you.
Sure. What about you, Bart? Well, have you ever heard of the thing of don't judge a book by its cover? Yep. Uh, the Lord looks upon the heart, not the, uh, outward appearance. And in Samuel 16:7, "But the Lord said unto Samuel, 'Look not on the countenance or on his height or his stature, because I have refused him.
For the Lord seeth not as man seeth, but the Lord looketh on the heart.'" Yeah. And, you know, for me, I don't know, w- we're, we, we don't judge. We're commanded not to judge. But I don't think I'm alone, but we judge, and it's hard not to do that. And I have an aunt that's, uh, on, on the genealogy wall, who her daughter had talked about this person coming to church, and she was on the corner of the street at the church putting out her cigarette.
Hmm. And my cousin said, "Well, wow, she's really giving it her all." And her mother, my aunt, said, "You have no idea what she has went through. Give her, give her, you know, the benefit." Mm-hmm. And anyway, but that's kind of stuck out to me of not judging, looking on what that person could be celestially versus, uh, um, what they look like now.
Hmm. Well, thank you, Bart. I think that's a great-- both of you, what you shared is a great way to start this discussion because story after story is things aren't as they appear to be, and beginning with Samuel the prophet, you think everything's going great in his life, and guess what? Right out of the gates, it's not.
He's having a hard time and a struggle, and then we're just gonna see how every person he deals with, it's just fascinating to me how it's not as it appears. And so I love that you've both shared that, and Bart, love it. He looks on the heart. So this is gonna be an interesting discussion today with both, both of you shared.
So one of the things then, knowing now what the prophet is going through, he's got a scenario with the people. So in the next segment, we're gonna talk about the situation at hand and what the Lord has to say about it, and this is an interesting situation. We'll do that next.
Segment 2
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We are in 1 Samuel chapter 8, and there is an event that would forever change the destiny of the Israelites. For protection against their enemies, the Israelites want something very specific. Let's go into 1 Samuel chapter 8, and we're gonna mark this verse right here. It's verse five. Aunt Angie, can you read that verse for us?
And said unto him, "Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations." They want a king. Okay. So Samuel then, being the in-tune prophet that he is, he's had the experience, "Speak, Lord, for thy servant heareth." He knows he can talk to the Lord. And he goes to him and says, "Okay, well..."
I love it in verse six, "Samuel prayed unto the Lord." And then the Lord's answer in verse seven, he says, "Listen, Samuel, they haven't rejected you, they've rejected me. So don't feel bad." Don't you think that's an interesting verse? 'Cause you've got this prophet coming in, and he's probably feeling sad because, I mean, now verse seven is even more powerful because he's going, "Well, my sons have rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ."
And so he's assuming the people are rejecting him. Don't you love that the Lord's like, "It's... No, no, no, no. It's not about you. They're rejecting me." They... Like, I, I just think he changes everything right there. So he's like, "No, they're just rejecting me, that I should not reign over them. So here's what we're gonna do.
I'm gonna give you all the reasons why a king is a bad idea. I want you to listen to the people and then tell them what I have to say." So I asked Barton and Angela to go through and read in 1 Samuel Chapter 8 and tell me in verses 10 through 18 all the reasons why the Lord says maybe a king's not the best idea.
What did you guys find? So let's look at verse 10. It says, "Samuel told all the words of the Lord unto the people that asked of him a king." So here's what the Lord has to say. What'd you find, Angie? It's not a short list- No ... is what I found. Yeah. He will, he will take your sons and he'll appoint them for himself for his chariots and to be his horsemen, and some shall run before his chariots.
Yes. So first I'm gonna take your sons. Wow, okay. Okay, and then he will appoint them captains over thousands and captains over fifties. Basically he's, he's gonna use your sons in the wars, and they're going to be, uh, either on the front line or either way they're going to be taken from you. Yes. And he will also reap his harvest and make, uh, them instruments of wars and instruments of chariots, which instruments of chariots.
Now what is that? Ooh, that's a good question. So in verse 12, how fascinating. I love the footnote for ear. It says, "He will set them to ear his ground," and the footnote down below says, "To cultivate his ground." So not only is he there, he's gonna make the bo- boys fight for him, and they're gonna have to do his gardening.
Like pull weeds. They're gonna have to do all of his yard work. Oh. All of his yard work, yes. And then he's gonna make his instruments of war and instruments of his chariots, meaning they're going to have to not only fight for him, but they're going to have to drive his chariots. That's kind of crazy, because if you're thinking like you have this king and he's subdued you, you're gonna be taught in the ways to fight against people maybe you don't wanna fight against.
Like you have to drive his chariots at his command. Very fascinating. So I, what, what popped into my head was that, uh, chariots are normally pulled by horses. Yes. Hopefully it's a horse- ... and not their kids. Oh, wow, I've never considered that, Bart. Isn't that fascinating? Oh, then this king's gonna be awful.
Yeah. Oh, okay. What else? Yeah, he's gonna be awful is right. Take, take, take. He's going to take their daughters and put them to work to make all of his fancy perfumes and maybe do all of his cooking, and, um, now they say confectionaries, which it said in the, in the footnote. Perfumers, ointment makers. Mm-hmm.
And they're gonna make them do all the cooking and all the baking. And not, you're not just gonna have to take care of his fields, but then he's gonna take everything of yours that you harvest. Wow, yeah. And take your fields and your vineyards and your olives and take the best of them and give them to his people.
Well, he w- he will take a 10th of your seed and of your vineyards and of your officers and of your servants. Gonna tax you. Yeah, tax. Tax, tax. He's gonna tax you. Yep. And then you will complain because- The king is being harsh on you. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what you wanted. Wow. Who wanted this? Yeah, right.
Isn't that interesting? In fact, verse 18, would one of you be comfortable reading it? Yeah, actually I, I have that one down here, 'cause o- on this I just summed it up of take, take, take, not good. And then, uh, verse 18 sums it up, "And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you, and the Lord will not hear you in that day."
Wow. It's kind of going back to, like, the b- the story of Judges, huh? Yeah. Like you do evil, end up being in captivity, realizing it's sad, crying for the Lord to help you, and He's like, "I... You asked for this. You wanted a king." And then how interesting in verse 19, the people refused... After hearing all of this from Samuel, 19 says, "The people refused to obey the voice of Samuel," and they said, "Nah, we still want a king over us."
Is- Yeah ... is that so fascinating? Yeah. And I found that when the Gospel Library added the scripture helps to talk about the lessons- Okay ... um, I found this quote from President Holland, and it said, "The painful irony here is that they already had a king who went before them and fought their battles. He was Jehovah, king of all.
But no longer would they have Jehovah to rule over them. No longer would they have Him to fight their battles. And consistent with the theme of so many history lessons, painful consequences came when it was too late to avoid them. The people later lamented, 'We have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.'"
Oh my goodness. They- What a good quote. Thank you for sharing that, Angie. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he... And the other thing that I read was the Lord had promised Israel that He would fight for them. He would protect them. Right. He would fight their battles if they stayed faithful, and they- Didn't trust that Well, and the other thing is poor Samuel.
Mm-hmm. And those, those two wayward sons, those judges. But that was the catalyst for the people to ask for a king. Wow. And without that, they wouldn't have had anything to stand on. And isn't it interesting in verse eight when the Lord says, "Listen, I know they want a king," and then he goes, "I, I brought them up out of Egypt."
He's bringing up a history they all believe in, and I love how many times the Lord does that. He's like, "I can do amazing things. I fought that battle." Mm-hmm. "I got them out of Egypt, two million of them, so surely I could keep doing it." But these people are like, "No, we, we really don't like what the Lord's doing, so we think this will work better."
And now go to verse 22. Let's read that. And I'd love to know from both of you after we read this verse, what do you think is the overall lesson of this scenario? So verse 22, will you read that for us, Angie? Yeah. "And the Lord said to Samuel, 'Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king.' And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, 'Go ye every man unto his city.'"
What's the lesson from the Lord in verse 22 to all of us? That I've tried to, b- I, the way I took it was I've tried to reason with them. I've told them what I think. They wanna do their own thing, so have at it. Yeah. Let them go, and I think that that's sometimes the lessons we have, that we ask for something and we ask for something 'cause we think we know better, and God knows better.
Mm-hmm. But sometimes he's gonna say, "You do you wa- your way and see how it works." Right. Absolutely. See how it works. You know, and here's something interesting, too, is now I'm reading chapter eight with such a different lens now with the way you started us, Angie, because now I wonder if 1 Samuel chapter eight might also be a parenting lesson for Samuel and his wife.
Because verse 22 to me is the Lord saying, "I'm gonna honor your agency. I'm gonna let you do it the way you're gonna do it." When you probably have these parents that are, like, fretting, and they're so sad about their child. I mean, look at that. After Luker, they took bribes. They perverted judgment. And you can imagine a parent wanting them, not wanting to honor the agency.
And so here's the Lord with all of these people still making choices, and the Lord's like, "Okay, give them what they ask for. There's nothing we can do. Let them learn it the hard way." It's like one of the best parenting lessons. Yeah. Wow. But then how we're gonna see what it leads to- Yes ... that, and would it have led to that if not for those lessons to learn.
So ... Ooh, I like that, Ang. That's really good. Well, the other question to ask is, has that scenario happened again- Mm-hmm ... and again, and again? Yeah. And it's- Yeah ... it's, it's a lesson that we all get to learn, uh, that God grants us what we want, whether or not it's bad or good- Mm-hmm ... even if it takes us into our personal wilderness.
Oh, my gosh. I'm feeling the spirit so strong right now because I think the Lord's just saying to us, to all of us who are fretting, "It's okay." Yeah. "Like, remember, I did it for the people in Egypt. I can do it for you. You think your problem's bigger?" That's why he keeps going back to Egypt all the time in scripture.
It's like, that's the biggest problem we ever ... Like, such a big deal, and he's like, "Yeah, I did it for them. Don't worry. I've got your child. I've got your family member. You just keep serving me," 'cause Samuel never stopped. "Okay. Well, I'll just keep being me. I'll keep serving with my wife and hope for the best."
So oh, my gosh, you guys. This is so cool. I've never read this chapter this way before. This is awesome. So cool. Okay, so let's do this then. In the next segment, the people want a king. The Lord says, "Great. Give it to them." And so as a result, we get to learn about how the prophet will also continue to serve, and what he does for a cute person who's missing something.
We'll do that next.
Segment 3
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I have a question for you two. So I wanna know, what steps do you guys take when you have lost something? Like what do you specifically do? I try to retrace my steps back to where I think I lost it. Okay. And generally I'll pray to have some help to find it. Bart's kind of smiling. Do you have a story, Bart?
Well, I've lost something right now, and w- I've, uh- ... retracing my steps, retracing. It hasn't came back to us yet, but, uh, I'm confident, I'm hopeful that it will. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it's, um, it's, it's that way even when you're young, but it's more prevalent when you're getting up there in the age. But- 'Cause now it, now it involves your mind.
You're like, "Am I losing my mind?" Yeah. I never thought that as a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why am I in this room? I'm like, "Well, I'm clumsy." Yeah. Yeah. I'll just go back to the last room. That'll- Maybe I'll- That'll turn over. Yeah, exactly. Okay, this is kinda cool. So you have a real-life situation where you've lost something.
So let's go into 1 Samuel 9. We have a scenario where something is lost, and they're going to need the help of a prophet. Let's go into 1 Samuel 9. Let's read verses 1 through 3. Now, verse 1 is gonna give a sort of a genealogical history, and earlier Bart said the genealogy wall. I just have to say how cool this is.
They have this big, gigantic wall in the room they're in right now that has all the pictures of genealogy in their family. It's really impressive. And so that's what verse 1 is. It is this big, long genealogy of people leading up to a specific person. So let's look at verse 2 and 3. And Ange, will you read verse 2 for us?
Yes. So it talks about how all these people come from the tribe of Benjamin, and then it gets into this man by the name ofaphiah, who's from the tribe of Benjamin. It says he's a mighty man of power. And then go ahead, Angela. Will you read verse 2 for us? "And he had a son whose name was Saul, a choice young man and a goodly.
And there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he. From his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people." Let's circle the name Saul. There's our first introduction to him, and we're gonna talk more about Saul in the next segment, but we wanna first hear this story that Saul's involved in.
So we got this guy named Saul, this young man named Saul, and Saul's father, in verse 3, have lost all of his donkeys. And so it says that in verse 3. And then Saul's father, his name's Kish. Kish says to Saul, his son, "Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise and go seek the asses." Go find the donkeys.
I don't know what to do. So Saul and the servant go, and they begin to look for the donkeys, and they can't find them anywhere. And so Saul says to his servant, "You know, we probably should go home because we've been gone so long that now my father probably won't even care about finding the donkeys. He's gonna be more worried about us."
That's in verse 5. And then the servant in verse 6 says to him, "Behold now." "There is in this city a man of God, and he is an honorable man. All that he saith cometh surely to pass. Now let us go hither. Peradventure he can go show us our way that we should go." He's like, "There's somebody that I think could help us."
Now Saul is in a bit of a problem because Saul then says to the servant in verse seven, "But we don't have anything to offer him. We don't have any bread. We don't have any money. Like, there's nothing we could really give him that we should if he's gonna help us." And I love that the servant's like, "Well, I have a fourth of a shekel of silver.
Maybe that would be enough." That's not a lot. So verse eight, he's like, "Well, I got this." It's in his pocket. Yeah, right in his pocket, exactly. Like, it's, it's like a lucky coin. "Well, I got this." And Saul's like, "Let's do it. Maybe that'll work." So they go. Now this is interesting. Verse nine is kind of a fun little parenthesis.
Verse nine says, uh, "Before time in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, thus he spake, 'Come and let us go to the seer, for he that is now called a prophet was before time called a seer.'" Highlight seer, highlight prophet. So sometimes those words are used interchangeably throughout the scriptures. We know, however, that a seer is greater than a prophet.
I'm gonna give you a cross-reference to verse nine. Put Mosiah chapter eight, verse 15. That's where we get that reference that a seer is greater than a prophet, and they're separate. And if you think about our leadership in the church, they're set apart as prophets, seers, and revelators. Three distinct things.
Okay, so right there. So we have this seer, we have a prophet, and Saul says to his servant, "All right, let's go find the man." So they go into the city, and they find these women at the well, and they say to him, "Hey," and listen, I'm just telling the story 'cause I love to tell a story, but you can read all of this in 1 Samuel.
We're in verse 12. They see these women and they say, "Hey, is there a man here that can see, the, a prophet?" And they said, "Oh yeah, he's actually here. In fact, he's here to bless a sacrifice. He's going to go up to the high place." Now you're gonna read the word high place several times, and that means the temple.
"Oh yeah, he's come here to go to the temple, and he's going to bless the sacrifice." That's in verse 13. It's possibly a peace offering is what some scholars think. "So if you just go and meet him, then he'll bless the sacrifice, and then you can meet." So they go to the high place, and they see Samuel come to the high place to then bless this sacrifice, and then you have verse 15.
I love this verse, and Bart, can you read verse 15 for us? Yes. Now the Lord called Samuel in Hizear a day before Samuel came, saying There it is. Isn't that interesting? The day before, the day before Saul even came, the Lord whispered into Samuel's ear- Mm ... "Hey, listen, there's this guy." And it says 16 through 17, "Tomorrow about this time, I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines.
For I have looked upon my people because their cry is come unto me." Don't you love that? 'Cause you remember earlier he said, "You're gonna pray to me and I'm not gonna hear you"? He's gonna hear you. Absolutely. And he's like, "I've heard their cry. Life isn't good, so I, I know in the future they're gonna...
things are gonna get rough, so I'm gonna need someone to lead the people." And so verse 17, "When Samuel saw the Lord, said unto him, 'Behold, the man whom I spake to thee of is the same that shall reign over my people.'" There it is. The Spirit tells him, "That's gonna be the new leader." So they have this really great interchange.
And then Samuel in verse 19 says to Saul, "I'm the seer, and I'm gonna tell you everything you need to know. In fact, I'm gonna tell you where the donkeys are, and I'm gonna tell you exactly where you're going to find them." And we have this really awesome exchange between these two, and Saul just can't even believe it, that this person knows all of this stuff.
So one of the things we want to do in this chapter is we want to find out... I just love how 1 Samuel 9 teaches us all the things, all the truths about a seer. So grab your highlighting pen, and we're gonna go through this. I'm gonna give you the verses to highlight some really cool things about what a seer can do.
So first of all, what you want to know is in Hebrew. The word seer is ro'eh, R-O with a little apostrophe and then E-H. Ro'eh. That's how you say it. That means seer, or ra'ah, and what it means is literally to see. And so it designates an early title for a prophetic figure who received divine revelations through visions, and he was a trusted conduit of God's guidance to his people.
So we have a ro'eh who can ra'ah, who can see. This is a really cool quote about a seer. This is from Elder Dennis B. Neuenschwander in two thousand General Conference. And Ang, will you please read this quote for us about a seer? "The fundamental responsibility of prophets, seers, and revelators, all of whom bear apostolic authority, is to bear certain testimony of the name of Jesus Christ in all the world.
This basic call to be a special witness of his name has remained constant whenever apostles have been on the earth. This testimony, born of the Holy Ghost through revelation, was the heart of the New Testament Church and is the heart of the church today." Thank you. Okay, so that's one of the responsibilities of a seer: to bear testimony of Jesus Christ.
So let's go back into 1 Samuel chapter nine, and let's mark all the things a seer did in this story so far. So we're gonna start with verse nine. First and foremost, what we wanna know is a seer is a man of God. He's an honorable man, and whatever he saith will surely come to pass. Isn't that fun? There's three things about a seer.
Look at verse thirteen. A seer can bless a sacrifice. Let's go to verse fifteen. The Lord speaks and reveals to a seer. So you could just put, "Told Samuel in his ear the day before." Let's go to verse 16 and highlight a seer can anoint because the Lord says to him, "Thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people."
So a seer anoints Let's go to verse seventeen. In this one it says that he reveals important things to his seer. So you could highlight, "Behold the man whom I spoke thee of."
Let's go to verse nineteen. I love this one. In verse nineteen it says, "And Samuel answered to Saul and said, 'I am the seer. Go up before me unto a high place. For ye shall eat with me today, and tomorrow I will let thee go, and I will tell thee all that is in thine heart.'" A seer can tell you things that are in your heart.
That's powerful. Verse twenty. A seer can reveal hidden things. So in verse twenty is where he says, "Look, I know where the donkeys are." He says, "As for thine asses that were lost three days ago, set not thy mind on them, for they are found." So cool. So a seer can reveal hidden things. Let's go to verse twenty-seven.
Here are some more things that a seer can do. He can open scripture to our understanding. So in verse twenty-seven it says, "And as they were going down to the end of the city, Samuel said to Saul, 'Bid the servant pass on before us,' and he passed on. 'But stand thou still a little while, that I may show thee the word of God.'"
So a seer can show you the word of God. And then we have in chapter ten, verses two through six, and then in verse nine also. A seer can see into the future the things that will come to pass, and that's exactly what happens. In chapter ten, Samuel takes a vial of oil in verse one and pours it on the head of Saul and kisses him and anoints him to be captain over the armies.
Like he's going... This, uh, the anointing of Saul is in chapter ten, verse one And then we just think this is so fun, verses seven through nine. I love these verses. "Let it be when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee, for God is with thee." And verse nine, "It was so that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart, and all those signs came to pass that day."
And so Saul got a new heart, or a better heart, however you want to say it. A heart of a leader, a heart to be over the people because of this Samuel the prophet. Here's another quote. Bart, will you read this quote from, for us? This is again from Elder New and Schwander from October 2000 conference about a seer.
Brethren, to have living prophets, seers, and revelators among us and not listen to them is no better than not having them at all. The prophet Jacob hoped that the words written with so much difficulty on the plates by righteous men would be received by their children with thankful hearts, and that they might learn from them with joy and not with sorrow.
May we be wise enough to do likewise with the words of the living prophets, seers, and revelators of our time. Thank you. I love in that quote where it says that the goal was for us to receive their words with joy and not sorrow. I'm curious to know, has there ever been a time in your life where you have received instruction from a prophet, seer, or revelator that led to joy for you?
Yeah. Uh, there, there's quite a few things that, you know, and this, this might be one of those things you might think of, "Well, that's kinda like the, the primary answers," or, you know, "Read, pray, go to church," blah, blah, blah. But, uh, family- Hmm. Tell me about that ... sealed in the temple. I, I served a mission in Cleveland, Ohio.
I never, never planned on going on a mission. I felt like it was too res- restrictive. I don't know. I just never, never wanted to. But I was going to Utah State, and I wasn't planning on going to college. I grew up on a dairy farm, and I planned on staying on the farm. So anyway, all my friends were going to school, and I needed to go do something because everyone else was doing it.
Mm-hmm. Silly, but, uh, it, it, this is when it worked out in the Lord's favor and in mine. Uh, I was there for less than a semester and literally woke up- One morning and said, "I'm going on a mission." The other two things that for me that h- have brought me joy was church callings, and my children and my grandchildren, and the lady who hits neighbor's trucks.
I have a follow-up question for you, Bart. Okay. What would you say to someone young today who says the church is so restrictive? I think it's interesting you used that word to describe your reason for not going. How would you respond to young Bart now, or anyone that says that, when it comes to prophets?
So there, there's two ways to go about that. You know, get over yourself, just go do it. It, it w- you'll find out that it's true- Mm-hmm ... that truth is by trying it. The other thing is something that I always say, you know, "Well, we have to go to church," and I always come back through and say, "We get to go to church."
And don't take it that I'm led by prophet, seer, and revelator, by our bishop, by our stake president, but Angie helps me the most. Mm. It, they're not restrictive is what I've found. They are, are something that are helpful. And when I talked about church callings, I was an activities chairperson in our ward, and back in the day when they used to have ward camp outs, and I had to, I had to plan everything.
It was a three-day thing, and I was a little bit freaked out about it. But in doing that and doing other things for activities, then came a job where I did an outside sales job, and just knowing stuff from that church calling helped me in my job so much. And that was a stretch for me, that, that job. So it, uh, I don't know.
Truth is by trying it, you know? If you feel good about it, if you are, are seeing what is possible. Mm-hmm. And doubt is, is good in some occasions, maybe 10% of the time. That's a great answer, Bart, and I have written down here, "Truth is by trying it." And from what you've said, and trying it has brought you joy.
Yeah. That's pretty cool. Wow. Thank you. What about you, Angie? Um, the things that I wrote down were, um, temple announcements always I love that. I mean, when they announced the Pocatello Temple it was like... And I, I mean, I grew up in Cardston where there's a temple, and my house was situated such that my bedroom window was the frame to the temple.
Mm-hmm. So I always had a temple. It wasn't like we do now where you have temple pictures in your house. I had a temple picture out my window, and it was just, "Oh, it's the temple." Yeah. Yeah. Because I lived right there. Um, of course, we didn't go as much when I was growing up. But, you know, you didn't get to go do baptisms as much as you can now, but...
So the temple announcements always make me happy. Yeah. Um, and the other one that I can remember very vividly- When President Monson announced the, the first time, well, not the first time, first time that applied to our children, the mission age changes. Mm-hmm. And we d- had two teenage boys. Our daughters were a little bit older.
But I knew it was gonna directly affect them. And I, I was home recuperating from a surgery, and they were down the lane with Bart working on some water issue in the c- in our neighborhood. And I went out and I got in the car and I drove down and said, "You've gotta hear what just happened." And I saw both a look of fear and of excitement on my boys' faces.
Like- Mm-hmm ... oh, wow or, oh, wow. Like- ... wow, are we gonna be ready? But, you know, their opportunities to serve, each one of them, we could see the joy and, and the way that they were able to testify of their experience and how it came to them differently. And our daughter, she was just, had just turned 19, or was going to just right before the age change for girls was announced, and she called us right after and she says, "Mom, Mom."
She had just turned. She says, "I get to go on a mission. I get to go now," 'cause she had been- ... talking about putting in her papers- Yeah ... in six months, you know? And, and those, those times brought us a lot of joy. I was never, I never enjoyed any time more than when my kids were on missions, I don't think. I mean, grandkids are pretty great.
But those were great, great days. Wow. Wow, how beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, the joy that mission- Yeah ... life has brought you and your children. It's really awesome to think that words from prophets, seers, and revelators can truly bring us joy. And- Yeah ... and I love the idea of that, just going with this fun story about how these donkeys go lost and the joy that Saul must have felt knowing that the prophet Samuel saw them, that joy like, "Oh, no, they're fine.
Don't even worry about them anymore." And just something so simple like that, how much joy that must have brought their family, and it can do the same thing for us today, that prophets, seers, and revelators, their words can absolutely bring us joy. So thank you for sharing your own experience. Appreciate that.
That is great. Okay, so then here's what we're gonna do then in the next segment. Now that Saul has been anointed to be the next king, or actually, now that Saul has been anointed to be the first king of Israel, let's find out some facts about who this leader is and what happens to Saul. We'll do that next.
Segment 4
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Turn back to 1 Samuel chapter 9 verse 2. We circled the name Saul. Let's learn about Saul, the first king of Israel. How exciting is this? So a couple of things about him. First of all, his name in Hebrew. First of all, it's Sha'ul. That's how you would pronounce it, and it means asked of God. And the name Saul appears about 406 times in the Old Testament, but the overwhelming majority refers to Saul, the king of Israel.
There's also smaller clusters that relate to earlier patriarchal and Edomite genealogies, so just kind of know that. But mainly, the name Saul is going to be this Saul, King Saul, the first Saul of Israel. So we've-- I've given these two some verses to study ahead of time, and we're just gonna learn everything we can about Saul.
So this is kind of a fun scripture chain, if you will, to learn what we can about him. So we're gonna start in verse two. We've already read that, and what we learned is that he was a choice man, he was goodly, and that there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he. Sum that up for me.
If you heard that about someone, how-- what would you say in our language today? Um, just awesome is the word that comes. That's not a very good- Love it ... descriptive word, but- Something that's used that's maybe overused a little bit is, "Oh, you're a sweet wife." Sweet Saul. And, and, and sweet is, is, uh, a, both a, a negative and a positive.
Mm. I, I like the term that there was none goodlier, which of course is not correct English, I don't think- You're right ... for all those English teachers out there, that's not me. But he was, he was one of the best. Yes. That's what it sounds like to me. He was just, he was a fine young man, you know? He was- Perfect.
Yep, I think that's exactly what it is. And then it says right here, "From his shoulders and upward he was higher than any of the people." That really is twofold, spiritually and physically. He's really, really tall. Which is gonna come into play when we get into the David and Goliath story. FYI, just kinda put a little pin right there.
Yeah. Very fun. It- And talented. Yeah, and talented. Yeah. Okay, let's go to another verse, verse 21. Here's what it's gonna tell us about him. And verse 21, I want you to, to sum up 21 in your language for me, how we would say this. It says, "And Saul answered and said, 'Am not I a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel, and my family the least of all the families of the tribe of Benjamin?
Wherefore then speakest thou so to me?'" What's he basically saying? I can't. Why me? And you don't wanna choose me. I'm just a, I'm a nobody. Yeah. Very good. I'm a nobody. I love it. Okay, let's go to the next one in your scripture chain. Chapter 10, verse 23. Here's more that we can learn about him. "And they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and up."
So there it is again. So he must be really tall if we've got this twice. So no, we don't know how tall, but tall enough for it to mention twice. Mm-hmm. Okay, and chapter 10, verse 9. Oh, we'll go back there really quickly, but we did read this already, but how wonderful that God gave him another heart. Now, I've included the NIV version, the NLT version, and the ESV version.
We're each gonna read one of these so you can hear what that means when it says, "God gave him another heart." But if one of you wants to just take the first one, NIV. "As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day." Awesome. Okay, Angie, do the NLT. "As Saul turned and started to leave, God game, h- gave him a new heart, and all Samuel's signs were fulfilled that day."
And then the ESV says, "When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart, and all these things came to pass that day." Can you guys just sum up what you think this means? Like, what's it trying to tell us about his heart? It was changed Uh, spiritual rebirth Has God ever given you guys a new heart?
Well, and, and another thing that came to mind was, um, this is kind of like a calling, isn't it? I like it. Being called to be a, the leader, yes. Yeah. So, you know, how many callings have we had in our lifetime? What did we learn? How much did we grow? And growth comes primarily abundantly when it's hard. That is such a great perspective, Bart, to think about when you get a calling that you think so far, up to this point, Saul's like, "Oh, I'm not your guy.
There's no way I can be the king of Israel." And how much do we love that the Lord's like, "Let me give you a new heart. Let me give you what you need to do this job." Bart, I think that's awesome. How many callings have we had where we're like, "Yeah, I'm not your person," and then he gives us a... What a great way to think of that, that the Lord's like, "Oh, no, you can do this.
Let me help you." Well, and I think that that happens when we're set apart g- and given the keys to do that calling. I know. That can help support us in whatever we're asked to do. We may still not feel confident about it- Yeah ... but we know that we have the- Ability ... ability, but also the, the privilege to be able to do what we've been asked to do.
Oh, I think that's so cool, especially when you consider in verse one he was anointed- Yeah ... to be king. Set apart. Absolutely. Wow, great perspective. Okay, let's go to another one then. So now we have chapter 10, verse 24. "And Samuel said to all the people, 'See ye him whom the Lord hath chosen, and there is none like him among all the people.'
And all the people shouted and said, 'God save the king.'" So how did the people feel about him? They were thrilled. Like, "Woo-hoo!" What a great guy. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. "This is what we wanted." Perfect. Kind of the start of a catchphrase. So we can see right here Saul is so good, and the Lord chose the best person that they could at that time to be the first king of Israel.
So now that we know that about Saul, he is a great choice, and the Lord has anointed him, but does it last? Well, in the next segment we're gonna find out a story that I say, u- we use a phrase, it broke the camel's back, but I like to say it's the sacrifice that broke the Lord's heart. We'll do that next.
Segment 5
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So did it last with Saul? I've asked Angie to get right into this and tell us a story. It's in 1 Samuel chapter 15. And there's a couple of things that lead up to chapter 15 that cause Saul to do what he does in chapter 15. And so go and read that, but Angie, hit it. Tell us this story. So Saul was commanded that he sh- needed to go and destroy the Amalekites because, I mean, the people were, uh, the, because they didn't fear the Lord is basically what.
They didn't fear the Lord. They ambushed the Israelites. They were not doing good things. Mm-hmm. And so he was commanded to completely destroy them, all men, women, children, animals, destroy them. S- Um, crops. That he had 200,000 plus troops, which I can't even imagine in those days, how did they get the me- how they- Okay
got messages out to... Anyway, that's a whole nother story. Um, but I thought it was interesting that they did, th- there was one group of people, the Kenites- Mm-hmm ... that were good amongst the Amalekites, and that he gave them word ahead of time, "Hey, you need to leave because the Amalekites are gonna be destroyed."
So he saved them first. Anyway, so they went to destroy all the Amalekites, and they did what they were asked, mostly, mostly. Okay. But they found that they wanted to keep the king of the Amalekites, and the best of the sheep and the cattle and the fat calves and the lambs. They only destroyed those things that were useless.
And so Saul was chastised about that because Samuel came and asked, "Well, why didn't y- why did you keep the king? You know, why didn't you do what you were asked?" "Oh, well, it was because my troops did it. I did what was asked, but then they saved these other animals and brought them back for sacrifice." So he pushed it off like he didn't do it wrong, it was somebody else's fault.
Okay. So he didn't do completely what was asked. He followed, he followed the instructions partway. Very good. Absolutely. In fact, let's mark a couple verses. In 1 Samuel 15:1, we wanna mark the word hearken. So it says right there, "Samuel said to Saul: 'The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over the people, over Israel.
Now therefore hearken unto the voice of the words of the Lord.'" We love the word hearken in Hebrew. It means to listen with the intent to obey. So when he hears the word hearken in Hebrew, Saul knows this is not an option. This is not your chance to just maybe, maybe you will, maybe you won't. No. I'm telling you right now, listen to what I'm telling you.
You better do it. Do it. And I love how you set this up, Ange. "Go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have and spare them not. And slay both man, woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." That's kind of hard to read 'cause you're like, ouch, why would, why can't the Lord have a little grace?
Why can't he let these people live? One of the things we need to understand is that they are worshiping false gods, but these false gods The god of Asherah and the god of Baal are so evil and wicked. Like, just a search on it, even on the LDS website, I've read things that just make your stomach turn. Ugh.
And the Lord's like, "We can't have them. Like, it's, it's so bad what they're doing, so you need to go and destroy them." And just like you said, Ange, they actually did not destroy everything. And then they offer a sacrifice, and we get in chapter 15 verse 22 one of the ve- best verses of all time. Don't you love that, Ange?
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Teach us... Read it and teach us about that verse. Because Samuel comes to Saul and said, "Look, why did you even offer him as a sacrifice? You weren't supposed to do anything." Right. "You kept it. Then you decided to go ahead and kill and slaughter some lambs and offer him as a sacrifice to the Lord," which is a good thing tr- actually- Yeah
'cause we do that at the temple, and when we win a war we absolutely offer a sacrifice to the Lord. But... Go ahead, Ange. Teach us this cool verse. Well, and I... And how he kind of pushed it off like, "But I kept them for a sacrifice." I mean, that's good, right? Right. But he only did that because he was caught, like the scripture that says, "Well, what is that noise I hear?
Like, I hear the animals, so where'd they come from?" But this, this verse says, "And Samuel said, hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord?" And then this part, of course, "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." So it's always better to listen and obey over s- over everything else.
Absolutely. That's probably one of the hardest life lessons of all time when it comes to agency. And we go back to how it starts. "Hearken, you better listen and obey with what I'm about to tell you." And how fascinating, to obey is better than to sacrifice. So you're right. Sacrificing is good, and we do it a lot in the temples, but before you do that, I told you to do something else.
That's, ugh. Doesn't that sound like a parenting move right there? Yeah. You ever said that to your kids? "I told you," right? Like, the Lord's gonna honor our agency, and that's what he does with Saul. He's like, "Well, you know what? You should have listened, but you didn't, and now as a result..." In verse 24, isn't that so interesting what Saul says to Samuel?
He was like, "Well, but I, I s..." He goes, "Sure, I sinned and I did transgress the commandments of the Lord, and it was because I feared the people and obeyed their voice." Like, I was just more worried about them than I was about the Lord, right? Yep. Oh. Yeah. But doesn't it, doesn't it say in, or in 17 becoming prideful, "And Samuel said, 'When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointing thee king over Israel?'"
Yeah, he's like, "You knew what you were." Yeah. "God set you up to be here, to be this leader for these people." And the result is he's like, "Yeah, I was more afraid of the people than I was the Lord." Yeah. "So I offered a sacrifice." Well, but I, I, I just think that our I can do it better- Mm ... being prideful. I'm sure this is what you meant.
Mm-hmm. And/or are you sure that's what you wanted me to do? I, I just- Right ... I modified it a little bit to find out maybe a little bit later. Mm-hmm. He found out. Wow, he did find out. In fact, look at verse 26. Ange, will you read that for us? Yep And Samuel said unto Saul, "I will not return with thee, for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel."
And then draw a line to verse 35. How sad is verse 35? Will you read that for us? Yes. And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless, Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. And you wanna highlight the word repented or underline it or put a square around it, 'cause in Hebrew it's nacham, and it means to be sorry.
The Lord didn't repent. The Lord was sorry, that it's sad mostly. He- that means sorry or to be sorry or to be sad. I, I like one way, uh, one scholar says to sigh, just sorta like, "Well, we tried." Ah. How did you pronounce that word? I wrote it down, but I didn't know how to pronounce it. Uh, it's nacham, N-A-C-H-A-M, nacham.
Okay. Oh, boy. Well, we tried with Saul. Yeah. It didn't work. I like how you said that, Bart. He thought he could do it a better way. Don't we do that all the time? Don't we often think- Yeah ... oh, I know better. Yes, all the time. And I, I'm retired, so it's not as much anymore, but you know, there was, there was times at, with work I'd be like going, "Oh, this could be done so much better."
And I don't know, it just, it's kind of freeing if you just do as you're asked. Yeah. And then see what, what, uh, blessings will come out of it. It's always better to obey rather than sacrifice. And I think that's the, that's the trick of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when we work with imperfect people in a perfect gospel, is that we all think we can do it better, and we probably could, right?
I think some people really probably could. Or maybe your idea was gonna work better, but that's not the point. The point is sometimes it's better to obey than to sacrifice and just learn the lesson the Lord needs to teach you so that you don't end up like Saul, where the Lord, the word of the Lord is rejected from you, and that the Samuel never came ever again unto Saul.
And so as a result, they're going to need a new leader. And that, that's kind of where we're at in the storyline. And so you kind of see, like basically from what we've talked about, how do you think we went from this really humble Saul to the Saul here that decided, "Nah, I can do it better"? What would your wise words of advice be to future Sauls down the road?
Well, I think we have to beware of pride Mm-hmm I mean, because he was very humble, very like, "I am just a lowly Benjamite." They, I mean, and his family, "I come from a family that's not really known. I'm bre- basically a nobody." Yeah. And but the more he had power, the more he felt like he knew better. And, uh, we all, you know, that's a cautious reminder for all of us, that we don't, um, we aren't in charge I agree.
I like that. We're not in charge We're not in charge, but we know who is Mm-hmm And that's what, uh, keeps me going, is I know who is Wow. Very good. I, I know who is. I like that. I'm writing that down Okay, so we need a new leader. We need a new king of Israel. So in the next segment, Bart's gonna tell us who it is.
We'll do that next
Segment 6
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So going back to how I started, I'm just curious to know, did either one of you have an experience with, that's similar to my calamari experience? Boy, I really wanted those to be onion rings. I was so hungry. And I hate, I mean, calama- I, I'd never in my life had calamari, and when I bit into it, it was rubbery, and it stretched.
And I was like, "What is this?" And my friend laughed. She's like, "It's squid, you dummy." I almost threw up. It was so gross. Ugh. Have you guys ever been duped by anything? Uh, I, I, I actually, uh, quite like calamari. Oh. The, the thing that I thought of is if you've ever been on a cruise ship or to an all-inclusive resort in Mexico- Okay
and they, the display of food is just beautiful. Uh-huh. And the desserts. And it's like, oh, look at all those desserts. They're gonna be so great. And they're not. They're beautiful, but they don't taste good. Oh. They all taste the same. They all taste the same. So they're very beautiful, but they just... Yeah.
Outward appearance. Yep, yep. So that's the thing that I thought of when it's not as good as it looked. Not as good as it looked. I love that. So appearances can be very deceiving in food- Yes, they can ... and in scripture stories. So Bart, tell us the story in 1 Samuel 16. And this is kind of cool because this was your sort of, this is what the Holy Ghost taught you, so I love that you get to tell us this story.
You know, first off, it talks about Samuel mourning Saul. Mm-hmm. And they would have had to have worked together a lot of time, uh, friendship, whatever. It would be easy, it would be perhaps crazy not to mourn- Mm-hmm ... the fall of someone. Bart, that's an interesting thing that you bring up, because it would have been so sad for Samuel, because here he is the prophet.
He thought he found, he anointed him. The Lord told him this is who the next person would be, so I love that you're pointing that out. He was so sad, like, oh, he couldn't do it. Oh, now I gotta find another king. Wow, I like that you pointed that out. Yep. Well, and then, uh, then he was, uh, something else that kind of surprised me was that he was concerned about going down to Jesse, and among his sons will be a king.
Mm-hmm. And then he said, "If I go down there, and Saul hear of it, he will kill me." Yeah. So perhaps he could try- 'Cause if, if the Lord, if, if Samuel's mission is not done as a prophet, uh, the Lord's not gonna allow that. Mm-hmm. It's, it's not gonna happen. But it was interesting that he was concerned of it. So maybe Samuel was starting to question, "Maybe I'm, I'm, I'm done.
Maybe, you know, there's- Oh, wow ... there should be somebody else, 'cause obviously I didn't see it right or I didn't hear it right." And anyway, just, just some thoughts. Um- I like that, yeah ... and then I love the fact of how many times have we went to, to do something and you're concerned about how it's going to look.
Mm. How it's going to come across. But the Lord always provides a way, and he did here. He says, "Take a heifer, uh, with thee and say it to them, 'I come to sacrifice to the Lord.'" And it's like, Lord, hey, I could do that. And so anyway, he, he does, and he, uh, he calls Jesse, uh, to sacrifice. And he, he wants to, to meet the family.
And so, "Okay, well, here's my eldest." And, and, "Oh, yeah. No next." And, you know, on, on through all the, all the kids. And there's, there's a couple of the sons that are named and whatnot. Anyway, he, he goes down to him and says, "Is, is, is this all of your children?" And he says, "Well, no. There, there is, uh, my son, the youngest, who is tending the sheep."
Samuel says, "Send for him, and we will not eat until he comes." And I believe when David got there, he was, he was, he was a shepherd, so he, he wasn't as physically active maybe in physique. Right. And but anyway, he was smaller. He wasn't as impressive of like, oh, wow, he's, he could really command and, and whatnot.
But- You will love this part. Josepha says that they believe he was 10 years old Oh. Wow. Well then- Isn't that crazy? That is crazy. You got this 10-year-old little boy and all these older brothers who are, who are stronger. So yes, I love how you've set this up. Mm-hmm. Little guy, little shepherd ga- kid. Yep, yep.
So David arrives, and God says to Samuel, "Take a horn of oil and anoint him," and the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. And, you know, as, if, if he is 10 years old, I would imagine, whoa. Right? W- what are you doing? You know? And, and I, I don't smell that bad, you know, or whatever. Yeah. But I can't imagine how he must f- must have felt.
I'm the youngest of, of seven children. Mm-hmm. There's five boys and two girls, and I will be forever be the youngest son and youngest sibling. And my older brothers and sisters, you know, they, I, I'm sure that they love me, but they always point out the fact of like, "Oh, you're the youngest," you know, in several different ways of not just coming out and saying, "You're the youngest."
But in- Oh, that's fascinating ... I, I can only imagine that David's brothers were going, "What is the deal?" Mm-hmm. "He's a dumb, dumb young kid." Well, and because he was so young, I mean, it's not like he immediately went and became king. Right. There were still things that were going to happen, but he was anointed to become that.
Right. And I imagine that was hard for his brothers to see that too, thinking, "Really? What's this little guy?" Well, and go- going back to how you started, Bart, with the thing that the, the Spirit taught you, in 1 Samuel Chapter 16, let's go to Verse 6, because here is Samuel, and he knows he's going to choose the next leader, the next king of Israel.
And right out of the gate, Verse 6 says, "It came to pass when they were come, that he looked on Eliab." Highlight Eliab. That would be the, allegedly according to scholars, that's the oldest son's name. And then Samuel says, "Surely the Lord's anointed is before him," like this is probably him. He's the oldest.
Gotta be him. It makes sense. Samuel was just like, "Done. Great. I came, I saw, I ch- I chose." And then you get your verse, Bart. Will you read Verse 7 for us? Oh. And what the Lord said to Samuel in that moment. But the Lord said unto Samuel, "Look not on his countenance, or on his height of his stature: because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh upon the heart."
Wow. And now we know probably at the heart of a 10-year-old. Yeah. So- The least likely to be chosen is the one that the Lord's like, "That's my guy right there." And, and I love that moment, especially when you talk about how Samuel might have doubted his ability to do that. I've never s- read that verse in that context, Bart, where he was scared.
He's like, "But what if Saul kills me?" You, you know. That's really interesting to think of. And now here he is, he's getting a really cool experience where then they, he gets anointed. And when we take that verse, verse seven, and that's kind of the crux of this week's lesson, is to not look upon the outward appearance.
And I'm just c- I, I love this quote. This is by Michelle D. Craig. And Angela, will you please read this quote for us? And then after you're done reading, I'd love to know your guys' thoughts on this about what it means to you to look on someone's heart. "Jesus Christ sees people deeply. He sees individuals, their needs, and who they can become.
Where others saw fishermen, sinners, or publicans, Jesus saw disciples. Where others saw a man possessed by devils, Jesus looked past the outward distress, acknowledged the man, and healed him. Even in our busy lives we can follow the example of Jesus and see individuals, their needs, their faith, their struggle, and who they can become."
For me, I guess it's, it's something that is hopeful because... And I've had, um, I've had my kids say before, other family members say, "I know, um, Jesus knows me." Mm. "And He's aware of me, and that He loves, He accepts others, and that we need to do the same." Mm-hmm. And if I trust that He sees me, shortcomings, good things, bad things, what I'm struggling with, what I'm trying to do better, He does that for Bart, He does that for you, He does that for my kids, He does that for my siblings.
He does that for all of us. He sees them. And their whole, their whole picture, not just what little bit of a window that we see right now. You know, we have our blinders. Yeah. We want ... We see this, and He sees it all. And that's the God I need. Mm-hmm. That He's, He's got, He's got it figured out. He's got- Oh, I like that
us all in our- His hand, and He'll take care of it. Absolutely. What about you, Bart? Well, you know, for this, I, you know, I, I, I believe that he, uh, was thinking celestial. Mm. Yeah. You know, he was seeing who they can become. And, you know, we'd talked about earlier about, uh, judging a book ver- you know, versus the cover and whatnot.
And, you know, we need to b- have the ability to, uh, have discernment, you know, in, in times that, you know, to keep ourselves safe. But when moved upon by the Lord, we need to act. And I think it's, uh, the human experience that we're having that holds us back. Mm-hmm. Oh, I like that. I'm just thinking back now, coming around full circle how we began this with Samuel, who's grieving the loss of his naughty sons who weren't even capable of being leaders because of the poor choices they made, and how it affects his lens.
And then I think of this quote and, and the Lord, you know, "Don't look on his countenance or on the height of his stature. The Lord seeth not as a man seeth." I think sometimes as parents, we do see the heart. We look, we have that ability to look on the heart and go, "But it was ... He's such a good child." And I think that's part of the problem why we really mourn and we're so sad.
Maybe that was part of what Samuel's experiencing was he was mourning the loss of ... 'cause he knows at, at the heart of it his sons were good. They were just making poor choices. But I think this is a reminder right here where I think the Lord's saying to Samuel, "Yeah, but remember I, I really do look on the heart."
Like, the realness of this. Like, David's 10. He, he's gonna make some dumb choices. And I almost wonder if verse seven is sort of the Lord's way of saying to all of us right here today, "I, I am looking on the heart of this David, who, by the way, is gonna make some really stupid choices in the future, some big-time choices, but you have to know I see his heart right now at age 10.
I'm gonna see it at age 20. I'm gonna see it at age 80, or however old he lives. I'm gonna see it when he can't even do the things I've set him forth to do, and it's okay. I still see his heart." Mm. Everyone's heart. Yeah. And that, I think that, for me, gives me a lot of hope, especially when it comes to my loved ones, that God, God does see.
He sees their heart, and that is what I have to just rely on. I think all of these chapters really do, when you compare these two stories, like it is a story about Samuel and Saul and David, and it's also a story about Sa- like you said before, it's not a new story. It's Samuel the prophet, the father, who's married, who has children making dumb choices, and the Lord's just reminding him, like, "I see it.
I see it all. It's gonna be okay." I wanna know from the two of you, 'cause earlier you said that this lesson was perfect for you guys because you have so many things, so many of, so much of it was part of your life. Tell me why. Why was this perfect for you? I, a couple of things that I can think of, like when the story that I was telling where Saul was asked to do a specific thing, but then he kinda made excuses when he didn't do it the way he was told.
Which don't we all... I- I hope we all kind of do that sometimes. Mm-hmm. You know, we think, well, like Bart said, we know. We just tweaked a little because it would've, it worked a little better- Yeah ... when we should have just done it the way it was asked. So that's one of the things that stuck out to me. And then I think also, um, it was a story of someone who, like I said at the beginning, he just, he followed God.
Besides all the other things, he followed God. Hmm. I like that. Samuel just followed God. Yeah. He didn't give up. Yeah, yep. You know, it- it's difficult when you see family and friends that are, are off in their, in their wilderness. And let- let's be honest, we're all in our own wilderness right here right now.
It's not- Amen ... those that are making bad choices, it's everyone that does that. It is, it is so, so difficult to work through and to endure through that messy middle, but that's where faith comes in. That's where doing those simple things of reading, praying, and going to church. And my, my reading was wonderful because I would put on, I...
Before I retired, I had, uh, an hour drive to work and an hour back, uh, home after work. And so I got a lot of reading in. A, a lot of, uh, Sunday on Monday on those trips and whatnot. But it just- I, I think it's essential that we have to get up and do our part. And if our part is just reading, uh, a verse of scripture and praying and going to church and having our mind open and in prayer of asking, "Who, who can I serve?"
Yeah. And, uh, um, the, the prayer doesn't always, for me, the prayer doesn't always come down to the fact of a formal prayer. It's, "Oh my gosh, this person's on my mind, and, uh-" Mm-hmm ... I, I've, I've got to call, uh, and, and see how they're doing. And, you know, when I, when I do that, after I've been whacked on the head several times, you know, and just say, "You, you, you've been on my mind, and I wanted to check in and see how you're doing."
And- I like that ... I, I guess that's kind of what sustains me, is, is serving others. And I'm not the best at it, but it's, it's something that I, I, as a retired person, you know, it's easier to do at this point in my life. Well, it makes sense then, 'cause the thing I wrote that I love you said is, "Truth is by trying it."
That was good. And I- And trying it has brought you joy. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I've learned through that, and I, that goes with this, is that the only heart that I can change is mine. Yep. We can't change theirs. We can't change anybody else's heart. No. We can only change our own. And so that comes back down to, well, if I can only change our own, well, then we- Go to the temple- Mm-hmm
keep our covenants, do the things that we can do to improve ourselves, and let God take care of the rest, 'cause he will. Amen. So- But the Lord looketh on the heart, meaning yours. Yes. So- He's looking on your heart ... so that's why I say it's, it's a little- Oh, I love that ... if there's any of it that seems a little pointed, like someone's gonna take it, "Oh, they're talking about..."
We don't want any of that. No. No, we don't. No, 'cause they just- But there's so many people in your scenario that need your words. Yeah. And what you've said today has been so powerful. I love that idea, that the Lord's just looking on your heart, and he sees your heart- Yeah ... and it's good. And we just have to trust him.
Trust him. Yeah. That's... Trust he's gonna do what he says he's gonna do, and that's, that's the thing that I have to, that I believe and that I testify of, that he will keep his promise. Mm-hmm. That he, that is made to us through the covenants that we've made. He'll keep it, as long as we do our part.
Absolutely. Wow. Thank you, you two. Well, that's it. We're done. That's the end. Wow. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. All right. Well, what did you guys learn? I wanna know. Join us on Facebook or follow us on Instagram and share what you have learned. And then usually we ask a question from this discussion. I already told you what I'm gonna ask, if you've ever been duped by a food.
Have you had a calamari experience? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. And go there anyway because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion, so go check it out.
The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our superb study group participants were Angela and Bart Caspersen. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger in me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember, you really are God's favorite, and He sees you.