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Segment 1

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This week's Come, Follow Me lesson ends with David becoming a king, being favored of the Lord, wanting to build the Lord a temple, and some dancing. So how did David get there? Well, the best thing we can do to answer that question is to go back and discover who the young boy David was before becoming a young king at age 30.

And as we do, we just might discover the heart of a young David resides in each one of us. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Book Shelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friends, Lori Miller and Helen Theriot. Ladies, I loved meeting you.

It's a mom and daughter dynamic duo that listen to the podcast, so hi, ladies. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different, and this week is different, and I'm so excited. You guys, I have to just tell you how much I love these two men.

Uh, I've known John longer than Jake, and I just... Well, I'm gonna let them tell you about themselves. We have John and Jake Haywood. Hey, guys. Hello. Hey, how's it going? Okay, how do you two know each other? Um, I am blessed to be the father of Jake A- and I'm blessed that he's my dad. So I'm, I'm very grateful for that.

So far so good, son. Blessed and tortured. Listen- I've known John a long time. John was one of my favorite people I've ever worked with. We taught at Skyline High School, and our offices faced each other, and it was glorious. Mm. We pranked each other. Uh, w- it just was like the best- Good times ... of times. The best.

There were no worse of times. It was the best of times, the best of times, right? It was awesome. It was incredible. It was, it was a great way to start my career. It was my first three years, and, uh, it was- Oh, yeah ... it was, like, almost 23, 24 years ago. My goodness. You're old. Yeah, yeah. Geez. I am old. You have an age that- You don't even look old.

Look at you ... I don't even have hair anymore, so. You don't have any hair, that's true. Yeah. You don't even have wrinkles. Well, hey, 51. I'm 51 now, so. Yeah, you're really old. And listen- ... we, Jake, we prayed you here, just so you know. You are a miracle, you and your brothers. So w- I just, I've loved following- Yeah

your family's story, and I just, I've known your mom and dad- Yeah ... forever, and how much they just- Yeah ... love you guys. They love their boys. Yes. I was, I was teaching with you when we decided to start adopting, and my wife had her third miscarriage. And it was literally in my office across from yours that the revelation came.

You know, I was, I was fasting for the health of my unborn baby, and- Mm-hmm ... the answer was, "You need to adopt." And I was like, "Oh, sorry, you didn't hear me. I w- I'm fasting for the health- ... of my unborn baby." And, uh- Wow ... you know, that, we, we got our three boys, um, differently, but it's been an incredible blessing, so.

Yeah. And Jake's my second, my second son. Yeah, and I, I always say, you know, to people, I didn't get just, you know, any normal parents. I got the best parents. Aw. You know? Like, I got the best ones for me, for sure. I love that. And I, I always kind of, I think it's funny when I tell people I'm adopted 'cause they always think I'm lying to them 'cause I look so similar to my parents.

Oh, that is 100% true. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's been a huge blessing to me and to my brothers as well that we got, you know, some of the greatest parents that we could've ever asked for. I w- I agree with you. We did. Especially looking kind of w- where we would've been if we weren't able to be a- you know, be adopted.

Wow. So very grateful. And I would say for John and Sunny, they got three of the best sons Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Just picking the crop I didn't know I was gonna get such a, such a reward so soon in this podcast. This is awesome. We could just say amen right there and go home. Don't worry. You'll be paying for my lunch later.

And this is so fun because Jacob just returned from his mission. Jacob, tell everybody where you were. Um, I was in Hamilton, New Zealand mission. Wow. And did you speak a language? Um, I did. I spoke English. Nah, I'm joking. I spoke Te Reo. Oh my gosh. A little of both. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of both. So, uh, the very...

So I was origi- originally called English speaking. Mm-hmm. And then about halfway through my mission, I was called to the T- uh, Te Reo speaking mission, which is, um, the native language in New Zealand for the Māori people. Ah. That is amazing. S- can you say the name of the church for us in that language? I wanna hear it.

Um, Te Ahui o Inikeri o te Hunga Tapu o nga Ra o muri nei I mean, John. I know. Chills. I just got 'em. Yeah, me too. I just got 'em. Yeah. That is so cool. So cool. Okay, this is gonna be a really gr- ... And the timing of this is perfect because I didn't realize that Jacob had just come home, and I'm like, "Let's have your son.

This is gonna be so perfect." And then I, I told them how I always pray about who the guest should be without thinking of what the scripture is, and it's just so fitting it's, it's the storyline in s- 1 Samuel, chapter 17. Are you guys excited? You ready to do this? Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Bring it. Seasoned seminary teacher and a, a missionary.

This is gonna be awesome. Okay. So everyone, if you wanna read the bios about my friends and you wanna see their pictures, go to our show notes. You're gonna find those at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with, and let's get into 1 Samuel 17-18 and 2 Samuel 5-7.

Okay, first things first, you two. Tell me, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were just studying and preparing for this episode? So when I was reading, I think the biggest thing that kind of caught my attention is God, he calls the willing, you know, not who's more experienced, not who's older or younger, who's right for the position.

He calls who's willing for the position. And I think while I was reading the story of, you know, uh, David and Goliath, it just seems like David was very willing. Mm-hmm. And as I read more stories in the Bible, and also in the Book of Mormon, it's really about the people who are willing, not who would be perfect for the job, but who is willing to follow the commandments of God and to do what he needs you to do.

Oh, my gosh. I think that's great. I'm writing that down. Sorry. He does call the willing, doesn't he? He'll take anyone who's willing to do the work. Yeah, that's a really good way to, really good way to say that. Mm-hmm. I appreciate you pointing that out. I noticed in chapter 17, 1 Samuel 17:37, just this phrase, "The Lord that delivered me."

This is when he's, he's telling the people, "I can take this guy," right? I know we're gonna talk more about Goliath here in a minute, but I, I can do this. And then he goes on, like, "Who are you?" And he's like, "Let me tell you a little bit." And that line, "The Lord that delivered me," stood out to me. David didn't realize he was being prepared for his future when he...

the lion and the bear when he was out and about. Yeah. And it, I don't, I don't think he thought, "I'm gonna fight a nine-foot giant in the future, and this is preparation," but he comes to that with, uh, with faith, spiritual experience, but he also comes with, with some life experience. Mm-hmm. And it just got me thinking of the different things that we go through in life, and sometimes they're hard and difficult and scary.

That would've been a, that would've been a PTSD experience with a lion and a bear. Yeah. Yet he was being prepared for, uh, you know, his future. And, uh, that's one thing that, that stood out to me when I read this story. Can I ask a follow-up question? Yeah. I'm going to anyway. Give me an ex- Permission granted.

Thank you. Um, give me an example from your life. Like, what comes to mind throughout your whole life where you can say, "Yeah, the Lord delivered me," but you didn't know it at the time? Oh my goodness. That is a really good question, and I, I- Is there anything that prepped you? I know that there are a lot of good experiences that I've had in my life that could, that could do that.

I, I didn't know if I should get that personal, but I think I will. Um, I didn't serve a mission. I got a mission call, but I didn't serve. I had some experiences in my early life. I joked about PTSD just a little earlier. But the reality is, emotionally I wasn't, I wasn't in a position to leave home, and, uh, that was a really, really challenging thing.

That was- Mm-hmm ... I think even to date, the hardest decision I've ever made. And I look at some of the things I experienced and went through, and some of the pain, and some people were really kind and some people were, were rather critical. Mm-hmm. And I didn't realize at the time that, that the Lord was, was using these experiences to help prepare me to help others.

As I get to teach seminary and interact with the youth, I was called to be a bishop some years ago, and, uh, got to serve with 73 youth in my ward. It was those early life difficult, difficult experiences that, that really prepared me in a lot of ways to not just relate with people, but to empathize with them- Mm-hmm

and be able to have a perspective that m- maybe I wouldn't otherwise have. Um, and uh, I, I just thank God for those, those experiences. You know, Ether 12:27, our weaknesses can become our strengths and not just go away. That scripture is beautiful- Yeah ... 'cause it says our weaknesses can actually turn into strengths, and I've absolutely seen that.

I, I've got a, I've got a ways to go, um, and in a lot of areas. But I can testify that God, God has us experience things so that we can assist and help and love others. Wow, John. Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. That's a great example of you just going, "Listen." And not only that, I love how in this David's saying, "The Lord delivered me," and he's...

Sure, he's telling the story to Saul, but like, we're reading the story now. Yeah. And it's just what you're, you just said. Like, your little experience is affecting so many people, so- Yeah ... thanks, I appreciate that. Thank you. Jake, did anything come into your mind? Um, yeah. I, I guess I got some things that I can share.

Cool. So I guess in my school life, back in high school and... Yeah, it was mainly high school, I'd say. Uh, whenever we were paired up in projects, um, in schooling, or especially in, like, church things, when I was put on- Mm-hmm ... um, different councils and things, I would always get paired up with- Well, there was some interesting people.

Um, not to say anything about, bad about them, but some, some people were pretty difficult to kind of, you know, work with. I would always get so frustrated 'cause I just- ... continued to get paired up with people that, you know, you know, me and them just didn't get along as well. And it... You know, you can probably ask my parents, I would always come home complaining and-

you know, all that kind of stuff. But now that I look back on it, like when I did go on my mission, when you go to New Zealand, if you've ever been, you would know that there is almost every different race and culture in one little spot. You know? It's- Hmm ... a melting pot of so many different people, and it brings so much good.

But al- sometimes it also brings some people that are hard to work with. Oh, wow. Um, so I think going through that and kinda learning how to work with, you know, people I didn't exactly wanna work with or, you know, people that, you know, me and them didn't get along so much, it, it kinda taught me that like, okay, you know, we don't have to be best friends, but doesn't, doesn't mean I can't love them like how Christ or God would love them, you know?

Mm-hmm. And I think being in those situations in high school, going through different, um, church activities and through different activities in high school, learning how to work with people that I didn't really, you know, get along with so w- well really put me in a good spot when I went on my mission.

'Cause when I had those first couple interactions when I had to work with some people that were kind of hard to work with, I knew what I was kinda getting myself into. I knew how to deal with it in a good way that helped both of us and ha- you know, we didn't go downhill, I guess you would say. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Jacob, you have a lot of people shaking their heads like, "Mm-hmm, I know exactly what he's talking about." Yep. You guys, those were great answers. Thank you so much. Here's what I love about it, is that we're only like 10 minutes in and we're feeling the spirit because of what you guys shared. Thank you so much for being thoughtful about your answers with that.

And what a great way to start this whole thing. Like, the God calls the willing. He absolutely does, and it's most often the willing know that the Lord will deliver them. That's what's cool. They have a relationship with their savior. So thank you so much for sharing both of that. Okay, so let's do this.

Let's get into the story of David and Goliath. We're gonna do that in the next segment.

Segment 2

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David and Goliath. Are we ready for this? This is like the story of stories, right? And I have asked my guests to help me tell this story. I've assigned John to tell us everything he can about Goliath, and Jake's gonna teach us everything he can about David. And of course, I'm gonna go first because let me just make sure we all mark this scripture.

In 1 Samuel 17:18, you're just gonna wanna mark 10 cheeses, 'cause it's one of the only scriptures about cheese. I- So there you go ... I literally highlighted- ... "and carry these 10 cheeses." I mean- And I said, I thought that's a funny... There's so many funny lines in here, like thy naughtiness and- ... parched, parched corn.

What is parched corn? I don't know. It's just so great because I'm reading everything that David's told th- by his father, "Okay, take all this food to your brothers." I get the 10 loaves, I get it, but then he's like, "10 cheeses?" I'm like, "I'm in. I'll fight, I'll fight any d- giant for 10 cheeses." That's the best.

So mark there's cheese. There you go, there's a cheese reference. That's beautiful. Oh, okay. So what you wanna know is we have this army of the Philistines, and they are going to fight against Israel. And the really cool thing is just verses one through three describes what it looks like, the fighting battleground.

And we have basically two mountainsides with a valley in between. And in that valley is where Goliath will be standing as he calls out to the Israelites. So that's where kind of the battle's gonna take place, but the armies are on each side, and we've got a situation here. So I'm gonna let John teach us.

Now, John, what do we got going on? Because there's this big old guy named Goliath. Yeah. What do we need to know about him in this fight? Well, we've got verses four through 11 give us a lot of detail. Somebody was nerding out on his armor there. And, uh, uh, l- let's just start with he's massive, right? Yeah. Um, you know how big a cubit is.

No, y- I don't know. What is that, like 17 or 18 inches? This guy's probably over nine feet tall. Right. And, uh, one of the first description is he's a champion. Like, he doesn't, he doesn't lose, uh, you can imagine. Oh, I like that. As you read through and you see he's covered from head to toe in heavy, thick armor.

His spear alone, I looked it up, did a little math. Um, I don't wanna drive the spirit away, but I did a little math. You crunched the numbers, huh? And his spear was, like, 15 to 20 pounds. Yes. And I, I was like, for comparison, a track javelin, they're under two pounds. I mean, this thing is huge. He's absolutely confident.

Like, you would probably... Well, we know from the story he's overconfident, but he's- Mm-hmm ... absolutely convinced that there's not, there's not a single living person alive that could even get close to touching him. And he talks a big game. I mean, he, he just talks it up. He doesn't believe, I think this is important, he doesn't believe in the god of the Israelites.

Who is this god, right? Mm-hmm. And he just, he just seems untouchable. He, look, he, f- just visually looking at him- You know why, you know why they're scared. Um, and David pulls up on it, which is just crazy to me. It's just like, "Ah, what's going on?" Right? Yeah. "Here's, here's your 10 cheeses. What's, what's going on?

What are you guys looking at?" And, uh, I just, I just think that that doesn't, the, the visual of seeing him doesn't seem ... We'll get into that, I'm sure. Yeah But doesn't seem to dissuade him at all. And for me, I'm just like, oh my goodness, this guy's, he is untouchable. What's the deal he puts forth to the Israelites?

Oh, yes. Thank you. If you can beat me, then we'll be your, we'll be your servants. We'll be your slaves. Mm-hmm. You can take the whole army, and vice versa. If I beat you, then, then, uh, you're mine. It's a pretty good deal. Yeah. One-on-one battle, right? We don't have to lose a lot of lives. Yeah, and Saul, verse 11, "When Saul and all Israel heard those words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid," right?

Mm-hmm. Uh, naturally. Even Saul, the king, right, this mighty king is, is greatly afraid of this single Philistine And the thing that fascinates me about Saul is going back a few chapters, it says that Saul was taller than all the other men. Like he was- Yeah ... a big guy too. So it should have made, uh, sense that Saul would have fought him, 'cause he's like, "I'm bigger than everybody, so I'll just go out.

I'm the king. I'll just take it..." But he's not doing it. He's like- No ... "I'm not touching this guy. He's so scary." So I love that setup. Okay, so here we have Goliath. All right, now Jacob, tell us about David. What's going on here? W- with his 10 cheeses. Yeah, I guess. Um, so the first thing that we learn about David in verse 14, so at verse 12 we start to learn about David's brothers and, um- Mm-hmm

he, uh, like his family. So it talks about, uh, you know, David was the son, you know, and, um, you know, of a father, and he had many brothers. And in verse 14 it says David was the youngest, and that's about- Yeah ... all it says for, you know, a while. So it kind of this is like he's young. He's, he's kind of the baby of the family.

The way that I kind of take that is like the brothers kind of think they're a little bit better than him, you know. They're a little older and they're a little bit more experienced. Um- Yes. Totally. Yeah. If I could jump in here, I, I am the second oldest of eight sons. My mom had eight boys. And, um, and I could verify.

Like- ... the older brothers, we, we ruled. Now, now my younger brothers are, most of them are taller and bigger than me, but- ... you know, at that time I could totally see. If one of our little brothers pulled up and with- Right ... you know, uh, the bread and the cheeses and the parched corn, it's like, "What's going on?

I'll take them," we would have been like, "D- go back home. Go back home." Yeah. Like- Just like the brothers did. "Get out of here." Yeah. "Get out of here." "What are you doing?" Yeah. Yeah. And then- Sorry to interrupt Oh, no. You're good That's great insight. Yeah, and then through the rest of the story we learn that he is in his youth.

So- Mm-hmm ... it's obviously explained that he's very young, and I'm gonna take that to where he's about maybe 15 to 20 years old. Like, he's probably a young kid, you know. He's the- I like that ... youngest of all the brothers and, um, but what I really like about him is that he's just, you know, willing to do what he's, you know, what he's told, right?

He's willing to do what needs to be done. Um, when he's asked to, you know, feed the sheep or to look a- after the sheep, he's like, "Yep." When he is told to go, you know, take the cheeses over to his brothers, he just says, "Yes." You don't hear any complaining. And I feel like a lot- Mm ... in the Bible we do hear some complaining from some protagonists and antagonists, you know.

Um, but for him, he is, you know, "I'll do it. Like, I'll just do whatever needs to be done." And that's a big thing, 'cause I feel like a lot of us, you know, especially me, sometimes I like to complain. Sometimes it's hard to, you know, get to do- ... what needs to be done. But David, he knew exactly what needed to be done and he did it.

So we kind of get this picture of David that, you know, he's just kind of a young kid just doing what he needs, needs to be done. And as the story progresses and as we get deeper into it, we learn that his brothers go off, you know, to the battle. Mm-hmm. You know, battle, uh, the Philistines and, you know, Goliath.

They go off to do all the, the hard stuff while he stays back to watch the sheep. But we learn that as he goes, you know, he brings the cheese, and he's kinda saying, you know, "What's going on?" They're like, "Well, there's this huge guy named Goliath, and he's challenging us, you know, on a one v. one fight." Um, and he...

I don't know. In the, in the scriptures, you kinda just like, you're like, "Oh, sounds fun," you know? Like Yeah. It kinda sounds like that might be interesting. And I've, I've always kind of wondered, like, man, is there any, like, fear or is there any, like, you know, unpreparedness that he felt during these times?

But I think when, when you read all about David, you just realized how, how God-driven he is. Mm-hmm. He loves God. That's good. He knows he can protect him. As he goes to kinda say, "Hey, I, I'll take on Goliath," he tells the story to the king about, you know, the bear and the lion. And I kinda like how he admits a little bit, like, he's like, "Man, I wouldn't have been able to do that if God wasn't on my side."

Like, he knows he's the underdog. He knows he is. Mm-hmm. But he knows that God can win any battle that is placed in front of us. You know, it doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't matter if it's a bear or, you know, a lion, whatever that looks like in your life, or maybe it's even a Goliath. You know, sometimes we have challenges in our life that are huge, and th- they're nine feet tall with a 20, you know, pound spear, and it looks impossible.

But as David teaches us, quite literally anything is possible. Oh, that's cool. Jake, can we read those verses, verse 36 and 37? Yeah, sure. 'Cause I think this is so cool how you've just perfectly set this up. Yeah, John, will you read 36 and 37? You bet. "Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.

David said moreover, The Lord that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said unto David, Go, and the Lord be with thee." That's awesome So cool. It's, that's after his brother's like, "What are you doing down here?

I know your pride, the naughtiness of your heart." And David's like, "What did I do?" He literally in 29- ... "What, what have I now done?" Right? Um, it, and then this question, which is more of a statement than a question, "Is there not a cause?" Mm. I just think that's so cool, and as Jake pointed out, he's all about doing God's will.

This is where we see the Savior, uh, typified in David in so many of these stories. It's the cause of, of God. Jesus was the cause of, "I, I'm, I'm here to do my Father's will." Um, and- Oh, now that's cool ... I just love- The idea that David is a type of Christ ... yeah, I just love the connection. Um, and, and Jesus as well, he was carpenter's son, right?

Mm-hmm. That was their, that was their put-down. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't this Joseph's son?" Like- Oh, I love that ... "Who does he think he is?" And Jesus was just like, "I'm just here for the cause. I, I'm here to do the will of my Father." And, and so even in this story here, I, I, I c- I can see the Savior being typified in David and his attitude and his behavior Yeah, and- Absolutely

for me, for sure, like reading the Old Testament's pretty hard for me 'cause a lot of time I didn't know what was going on or what I was even supposed to get out of it. And then my dad told me at the b- I think it was while I was on my mission we started Old Testament up in Come Follow Me. And he said, "You know, the Old Testament is all about types of saviors.

You know- Mm-hmm ... you, you're looking for the savior in these people." And one of the things that I really kind of saw it, the difference between David and Goliath is Goliath is big and loud. Who does that sound like? Sounds like Satan himself- Ooh ... right? He's big and he's loud. He likes to make himself look like he is the champion of the Philistines.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. He wants- That he never loses. Exactly. We like that. He, he wants you to think that you can never beat him. He, he tells lies, he does all these terrible things. And then we have David. He, he's a little smaller, not saying that, you know, God or Christ is small, but they do come in a still small voice.

How many times have we heard that in the scriptures, you know? Mm-hmm. He, they come in more of an unpredictable way, but, you know, when they do come, they are able to beat whatever is put in their path. And I love that symbolism between David and Goliath is that, you know, Satan, he's out there, he's trying to make himself the biggest and the baddest when God doesn't need to do that.

He doesn't need to make himself look like he's the biggest and the baddest because He knows what He's capable of. And as Go- uh, as David said in verse 37, said, "He will," it's not He might deliver me, "He will deliver me out of the hands of," you know- Yeah. Goliath. And it's just that confidence David has in the Lord because- Yeah

he knows anything's possible. I just noticed that his confidence in the Lord is what persuades Saul to let him go. Because before that, brothers are like, "What the heck are you doing?" Saul's like, "Uh, he, you're a kid," and he's been a champion fighter since he was a kid. Um, and he, he gives, "Oh, the lion, the bear, I was, I was good with them.

I, I conquered them." But then he brings up God, and he's like, "Listen, God's gonna be with me, and I can do this." And when he brings up the Savior, that's when Saul says, "Go. The Lord will be with you." Right? That's- Yeah ... that's when Saul's like, "Okay. Maybe this can happen." And I just think that's cool it was, it was the Savior that made a difference, uh, in this story- Yeah

for David and f- and for Saul. Well, one of the things I love, Jacob, that you said several times and I wrote it down, you said David was God-driven. Like, you, you-- that was your phrase. Ja- David was God-driven, and I love that phrase so much 'cause then you look back at verse 36 and I have it marked also in verse 26 where David refers to him as the living God.

And that is amazing to me to think that-- 'cause I don't, I did not think God was a living God as a young kid. I didn't know what I thought about God until I was almost 21 or 22, and then I realized, oh, he's like a real living person. I kind of just thought it was like a floating head over the earth that I didn't really know.

I, I didn't. Like, I knew that I was a child of God. I didn't really know what that meant. But to think at a young age that he's like, "Oh no, I believe in a living God." So that idea of being God-driven is just beautiful, Jacob. I love that. And then I love how you've ended, John, by saying, and when as soon as he brought Jesus Christ into the storyline, Saul's like, "Go.

Lord be with thee." Like, you can't, you can't do anything else. Let's just, here we go. Let's have this fight. So great job explaining that. Okay, so let's do this then. In the next segment, let's talk about the fight. This will be a good discussion. We'll do that next.

Segment 3

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So we are now in 1 Samuel, chapter 17, and let's look at verse 38, 'cause this is such a good verse. I love one of these verses, 'cause I'm a visual person, so I am picturing this in my head right now. "Saul armed David with his armor, and he put a helmet of brass on his head; he also armed him with a coat of mail.

And David girded his sword with his armor, and he assayed to go." So I'm picturing this little boy with all this armor that's too big for him, and he's just standing there, and the helmet's crooked 'cause it's too big for his head, you know, all this stuff. And he's just like, "Ah." He can't even move, and you just love it 'cause then it says, "For he had not proved it.

And David said unto Saul, 'I cannot go with these, for I have not proved them.' And David put them off him." What does that mean to you when you hear, "He did not prove them"? What does it mean? I, I think that's a young boy not trying to offend this anointed King Saul. He's like, "This is, you're so ki- this is so nice of you, but I don't deserve this.

I haven't proved them," right? I, I think I know what he's saying by it. I like that. I know what he's saying by it, and it's, it's the fact this is your armor, right? I, I'm not used to this. In fact, I, I'm really curious what that word actually means, uh, to prove something. That would be an interesting- Hold on.

Let- ... interesting word to look up We're looking it up right now. That's a great point, 'cause yeah, here's what I want you to do. Jacob, you're the youngest of the three of us. Put that into, uh, your, your language, what he's trying to say Um, I think there's a lot of different- Without being kind. Yeah, I guess.

You know, he, he's definitely probably looking at this armor, and it's too big for him. And he's pro- probably just trying to be nice, you know. But, um, if it was me to my dad, I would d- be like, "Uh, what are you doing? Can't you see that this armor doesn't fit me clearly?" That's awesome. Um, but- I love it. Okay To put it to the test.

Did you find that? Yeah. One of the definitions of the Hebrew word, what is it? Nasa? I don't know how to say that. Yep, it is. Is, is to put- Nasa ... to put to te- so we use that phrase, to put something to the test. Um, he goes- Oh, that's awesome ... "I'm not experienced with this. I haven't put this to the test. I'm not confident in this.

I'm confident with slings and a, and some stones, but I haven't put this to the test." Um, and, uh, I don't know what the application there is for me and you. Maybe there isn't one. But the reality is he, he went with his, with his experiences, what he was comfortable with. And he's- Yeah ... doing it, maybe one thing to take is he's doing it differently than everybody else there would've done it, right?

Yeah. Um- Oh, I like that ... he's not following some prescribed pattern of battle because everybody else did it that way. He's going with what he has put to the test, and, and he's taking his experiences. He's physically armed. He's clearly spiritually armed. Uh, it, it is clear he didn't even have a sword. Like, he wasn't even gonna be able to jab him in the kneecap.

I mean, it was- Right ... it was a stone to the forehead or nothing. Sorry, spoiler alert. Oh, no. Carry on. Keep telling the story. Okay. So I love it because then he takes five smooth stones in verse 40, and he puts them in a bag. Now, I have a memory, John. Did we do this? Oh my gosh, it's the same memory I was just gonna bring up.

Bring it up. You go ahead. No. No, no, please, I wanna hear your memory. I remember back in the day when we did dumb things in seminary, and we made nine-foot-tall Goliath out of poster- Yes ... do you remember that? Out of construction paper. Of course I do. I loved it. Literally. And we made slings in seminary. Mm-hmm.

Like, put, put the scriptures down, we're gonna make some toys. And we had- Full size marshmallows, and we would sling them and huck them at this thing and try to hit Goliath in the forehead. Is that what you were gonna bring up? Yes. Because listen- He started laughing out loud ... we got an overhead projector.

We got an overhead projector, and we put it up there, and we drew that Goliath on a big

gi- nine feet tall, Jacob. Yeah. We measured it. It was, like, from the ceiling to the floor. But the whole point was just to show kids, like, it's really hard. When he says, "I haven't proved the armor," it'd be easier to use the armor than it would the sling. That's what blows my mind. 'Cause when you think, it's not the thing you pull back and let go.

Like, you have to swing it. It's wrapped around your fingers. It's the weirdest thing. And the idea that that's what he used, like, I love how you said, he choo- he chose something that no one would have picked. So do- a stone in a sling. Every- you know everyone's like, "This kid's gonna die." That's a child's toy.

That's a wrist rocket, right? You- Yes ... you're going out there with shoot some BBs at him, right? Yeah. It's ridiculous. It's not gonna work. Yeah. So you now, how much do we love this story even more now, because now for sure people are gonna know this has everything to do with the living God and nothing to do with the little David.

Like, he's gonna get what he has proved. And I just, I like how you said it, John. It's, it's not what anybody else would have done. It's the silliest way to fight this battle. Yeah, it's, it's effective, right? Yeah. Um- Okay, keep telling us the story. Then what else goes on? Well, he, yeah, takes the armor off and he goes down to the, to the brook there and chooses five smooth stones.

He's probably done that his entire life while he's- You know, flinging stones at, at birds and, uh, self-defense and, and, uh, he's, he's familiar with this, so he gets five stones. We know he only uses one. Yep. Um, but he's prepared with five, um, which is awesome, right? And, uh, I would've got a lot more, but he's prepared with five.

And the Philistine comes to him, right? Mm-hmm. And they do give some more description of, of, I guess, the Philistine's perspective of David. So he, he sees David and, uh, he sees that he's just, he's just a kid, really, right? Yeah. And, and he says this phrase, "Am I a dog that you're gonna come out, you're gonna come out?

This is, this is who you're sending out to fight me?" Yeah. "Um, who do you think I am?" And he gets, it seems like he gets irate. Mm-hmm. Like, "This is a joke," right? "You want me to kill this little kid? I will, but this is a joke." You wanna hear something, this is so cool about that phrase, am I a dog. I recently learned this.

It is a way, that saying back then was a way you would challenge a man's manhood, 'cause it was almost a word for a prostitute. Oh, wow. He's like, like, he's basically like, "You calling me weak? Like, I'm gonna fight a kid." It's, it's totally challenging his own manhood, and- Wow ... so I think that's fascinating right there in light of what's going on.

And so, yeah, he- That's a cool insight ... so crazy. So there he is, he's out on the field. He's got his spear, his sword, all the things in verse 45. Yeah. And then verse 46 is David's response. Jacob, what did you notice about the way he responds to Goliath? 'Cause Goliath's like- Well- ... "Today, I'm gonna kill you. I'm gonna p- let..."

In fact, verse 44, "Come unto me and I will give thy flesh to the fowls of the air and the beasts of the field." And then David comes back in verses 45 and 46 So good Yeah. Well, I, I just love how David, he's just, like, not even moved. He's like, "I'm gonna win," you know? Like, he Yeah, right ... verse 46, yeah. W- uh, verse 46, he said, "This day will the Lord deliver thee into my hands," and that's the first thing he says to Goliath.

Like, he- he's like, "You're gonna lose." And I, I bet, like- You're good on that ... Goliath- You're gonna lose ... yeah, "You're gonna lose," you know? And I bet Goliath's just probably laughing his head off thinking about this little kid, but then he goes on to be, like, he, he keeps talking. He says, "And I will smite thee and take thy head from thee and I'll give the carcass of the host to the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air and to the wild beasts of the earth that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel."

Like, he knows what he's doing. Like, he is, he's like, "I'm not, you're not just gonna lose, but I'm gonna show you that there is a God," you know? Like, the, because the only way that David could have won this fight, if there was a God, and, you know, we know that in the end he does win, so, you know, he's proving his point here.

He said, you know, "You're not just gonna lose, but I'm gonna prove to the Philistines and to the Israelites that there is a God and He does exist. He is real and He wants to help us." That is what he's telling Goliath right now. I have, I just have a question. Like, where does, where do you think David, this is for anybody, I mean, where do you think David gets this kind of faith and confidence?

Like, I, I wonder if David's- That's a good question ... 20 or 30 years older and life wears on him and he recognizes some of his own weaknesses. I mean, where does this, where does this absolute, absolute confidence and faith in his abilities when he couples himself with God, where does that come from? Like, I, I don't, we don't have a lot.

Mm-hmm. We know that he has some experience with God, but I, I want that kind of faith. Like, I, I want that kind of- Ah ... almost, it almost seems irrational, like, to, to think you should be that confident in, in the presence of this Goliath From, from my experience, I know that there's a good chance that it probably came from parents.

'Cause for me, my parents taught me a lot about the gospel. They, they helped me find that faith. You know, every- of course you gotta find, you know, your own testimony, but there's always somebody that pushes you in that direction. It's either, you know, parents, friends, and for new people, the gospel would be the missionaries.

'Cause of course- Mm-hmm ... like when you're teaching somebody, you, you know, it's their choice to have that faith or to, you know, be baptized or to believe in a god, right? But there's always a pusher, and there's always somebody that pushes them towards the idea that God exists, and I think it could definitely been his parents from that experience.

And the, the battle of the lion and the bear definitely probably reinforced that faith in him. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, 40- Wow, that's a good answer ... 48, verse 48 said, "When it came, David ran," like he ran toward the army to meet- Mm-hmm ... the Philistine. Like I, I'm just picturing this whole scene, and if I'm standing there, I'm like, "This kid's gonna get himself...

You know, he's, he's dead meat. There's no way." Um, I'd like to think I would have been as faithful as he was, uh, but the reality is, with all of the evidence, um, uh, presented there, uh, he's gonna lose, right? Mm-hmm. He's gonna lose. And so his faith is so incredible to me that he, uh, like Jake pointed out earlier, he absolutely knows he's God-driven.

Yeah. And the reason he will be successful is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean, Jesus Christ is his strength, um, as President Uchtdorf would probably say. And, uh- Mm-hmm ... I guess maybe that answers the question. He is 100% confident in his savior, not himself- Yeah ... but in Jesus Christ. And the cause. The cause is just.

The cause is good. Well, I like that you brought that up, 'cause when you asked the question, my thought was, "Well, could any of us be like David, or was David given, like, an extra portion to...?" But I think you're right. I think everybody could be like David- Yeah ... because of his cause. And again, going back to what Jake said, he was God driven.

Love that. And then Jon, you've continually said, like, because of Jesus Christ, he had faith in Jesus Christ, and then he knew the Lord would deliver him. I mean, that is from his own experience- Yeah ... as a young kid- Yeah ... that just built. I think that's powerful. Never underestimate the power of experience when your kids are little.

And for anybody that has a parent that's like, "Well, my kid has left the church," that's okay. It's still okay because he's got many more- Yeah ... who knows when his lion or his bear might happen. And it might come a little bit... Maybe they haven't had it yet, but they will. I think everybody gets a lion and a bear moment in their life to help build faith in Christ.

And then it's interesting, God will give you opportunities to demonstrate- Yeah ... that faith. And you've had experiences, probably your listeners had experiences where they, you didn't realize how much faith you had until that's all you had. You know, if- Oh, that's so- ... if you're in a situation where there's no help offered.

I remember ugh, I was dumb enough to take my wife hiking in the Grand Canyon when we first got married in, in June, and 120 degrees at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And there were signs on the way down about hydration, and we laughed and took pictures with them. And then we got down there and, and she drank way too much water and flushed out all her salts, and she was shutting down, right?

And there was nobody stupid enough to be down there. Oh my goodness. Uh, my brothers had hiked on to a different camp, and we were stuck there, right? And we didn't have a doctor, we didn't have a phone, we didn't have, you know, somebody to help us. We had, we had faith in Jesus, we had the priesthood, and we had, uh, Top Ramen, uh, flavor packets that are loaded with salt.

So that's all we had. What? That's all we had, and we loaded her up on salts and sat her on the river, and I gave her a priesthood blessing. And those are one of the times where the miracle- Yeah ... every footstep, you saw the miracle happening. And I wouldn't have known how much faith I had. I wouldn't have known the power- Yeah

of the priesthood had God not kinda left me alone and said, "Here you go." That's why this one's so miraculous. He's got a whole Israelite army with- Yeah ... experience. He, he didn't have to be the guy. And I just have to, just have to realize David is incredible. David is- Wow ... not your average teenager. I, I'm just so impressed by example, which makes the upcoming stories with David so tragic.

I hate them. I- Yeah, I know ... I hate, I hate- Oh ... the story of David and Bathsheba because I just... How could it be? I'm sorry I'm getting ahead, but it just, it just pains me so much. Yeah, it does. But I, I like so much what you've just shared with us, especially your personal story, because my, in my brain I'm like, "Wow."

M- m- maybe the prayer we should have for people is, "Oh, please, Heavenly Father, send them a lion or a bear." And how amazing that like why would a little boy get a, a bear and a lion at such a young age? Unless God knows, "Listen, I'm gonna need him to fight a Goliath here pretty soon." And I think he would have had to have been under the age of 18, because that's when you went to war, was at 18, or that's when you were counted as in, in a census, was at age 18.

That was when you became a man. Wow. And so he probably had to have been younger than 18 to not even have been invited to the war. Yeah. So I just, I love how God knows us better than we know ourselves, and He writes our stories. And so there's hope for everybody. Just pray for everyone to have a lion and a bear moment so that...

And, and th- God knows what it's gonna be for them, because we all have Goliaths. Yeah. Every single one of us. That's a hard prayer for a parent- Oh ... though, right? The worst. 'Cause parents wanna run to the rescue and make everything okay, and- Mm-hmm ... I don't want you to hurt, and I don't want you to be sad, and I don't want you to...

But the reality is- But Jesse wasn't here. Yeah. Jesse wasn't with his kid on that field, down there standing toe-to-toe against Goliath. Wow But I think you're right, Jacob. I think it had something to do with his father, 'cause I just had this thought. John, tell me what you think about this. Because when you talk about the genealogy of Christ, it always talks about coming from the stem of Jesse.

Interesting. Yeah, like they mention his dad when we talk about Jesus in the scripture. They mention David's father when we talk about where Christ comes from. That's awesome. The stem of Jesse. Yeah. That's powerful, Jacob. I like that. That's really cool. Yeah, for sure. Just going back to kind of, I remember when you said, you know, like anybody can be a David.

You know, anybody can fight their, you know, fight their battles. And I thought, I was just looking at verse 47, and it kind of just, you know, David's telling them, you know, anybody can be a David. He says, "And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with the sword and spear. For the battle is the Lord's and He will give you into our hands."

Right? He's saying like, you know, you don't need a sword or a spear. You don't need- Oh, yeah ... to be a professional. You know, the, the battle is in the Lord's hands. Anybody could come up here and sling this stone. And he's like, "It doesn't have to be me." And I just thought that was pretty cool, 'cause it kind of gives us- Yeah, it is

you know, that inspiration of like, hey, anybody can win the Lord's battle for them. And a- as long as you're willing and you have faith and you go into it like David did, like I guarantee that you can do it. 'Cause I've seen it in a lot of real-life situations with friends and family and- Mm-hmm ... you know, there are definitely challenges that were bigger than all of us, and because they chose the Lord that they were able to get through it.

But that's just ... So I kind of backtracked on us, so sorry about that. No, that is awesome. Yeah. What a great application, Jacob. Thank you. That's so perfect. So good. So finish the story for us, Jacob. What's the verse we wanna read about how the w- this battle ended? Um, so I guess it starts, uh, in verse 48. So it says, "And it came to pass when the Philistine arose and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted and ran towards the army to meet the Philistines.

And David put his hand in his bag and took thence a stone and slang it and smote the Philistine n- in his forehead, that the stone sunk in his forehead and fell upon his face to the earth." And so first off, um, like imagine how fast that stone was going, first off. Right. And like how hard it hit Da- how hard it hit Goliath.

Like, okay, David might be young, but he probably has the muscles of Goliath, let's be honest. Um- Yeah, I love it ... and then, uh, it goes on. So Goliath, um, fell face first to the floor, and said, in verse 50 we continue, it says, "So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone and smote the Philistine and slew him.

And there was no sword in the hand of David." Again, referencing that, man, you don't need a lot- Mm-mm ... to be victorious over, you know, over Goliath or in the real world over challenges, over Satan. You just need to have that sling and stone. Okay, that is good. Can we put that in final lettering? That is so good.

Okay, well I'm gonna end right there. So you're right, you don't have to have a lot to be victorious over the enemy. And so in the next segment then, we're gonna talk about maybe what the application could be with the sling, with the stones, and what this whole story means for all of us. We're gonna do that next

Segment 4

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I'm gonna start with Jake because Jacob, you kind of started talking to us about what you think the sling and the stones represent. Tell me more about that. What do you think it means and what, like in light of our own lives today? Uh, the sling, I represent that as faith 'cause- Oh, I like that ... I mean, having the stones and all is cool, and maybe the stones represent a couple other things.

But without having the faith, you know, most of the stuff that we use doesn't really work if we don't have the faith that they will work. So I think the sling can definitely be interpreted as faith, 'cause we need the sling to get the stones moving, right? Mm-hmm. And then the stones can represent so many different things in our life.

Yeah. I think stones can represent priesthood power. It can represent willingness. It can represent drive, I guess, like motivation to do- Mm ... the Lord's work, I guess. But yeah, the stones can represent so many things, but I really do think that the sling does represent our faith, 'cause it is what gets everything going, and that is what faith does for us.

Ooh, I like that. I like this. This is a faith without works is dead. I mean, he talked. Mm-hmm. You heard, you heard his faith through his words. Um, but that wasn't the end of it. Like, you saw it in his actions too. And, uh, it was that combination of, of knowing God, trusting God, and then being willing to run, run towards the, the battle.

Run towards the, the Goliath, if you will. And, uh, I really like that, that idea of faith being the sling. I do too. Let me ask you this, John: when you teach this as a seminary teacher, what do you teach about that? Is it the same thing with the sling? No, I'm gonna get some construction paper, and I'm gonna build a nine-foot-tall Goliath.

No. Those are good times, huh? Th- those, those days are over. Um, yeah, I don't know. This is giving me a whole new perspective on, on this story. I, you know, I think, I think sometimes we, we cheat these stories a little bit because the stories are so good, and they're so- Yeah ... big. We focus on the armor. You know, even the author focused on the armor.

We got like- Right ... six verses. Uh, even, even Nephi with Laban, right? He t- he's like pauses and like, "Man, this sword is awesome," and there's like this description of Laban's sword. And, uh, I think it's easy to just kind of get lost in, in some of the, the cool details of these stories. And I am definitely... And Come Follow Me curriculum has done such a wonderful job of, of finding the Savior in all of this.

And- Mm-hmm ... uh, I, I mean, it won't work this way with high school kids, but it would be awesome just to read through this just looking for the Savior in David's words and in his actions. We found some today that I hadn't noticed before. So however I end up teaching this, I, I hope my students go away seeing the Savior, seeing- Mm-hmm

how David represents the Savior as he had all confidence in, in Jesus. Jesus had all confidence in the Father, and he was God-driven. Uh, Jesus was, to use Jake's phrase, he was God-driven. And I know that I can, I can overcome obstacles in my life. I know I can overcome the Goliaths in my life. Mm-hmm. But I was teaching about Caleb and Joshua and how their report was faith-filled of the land of Canaan, uh, while the 10 others were fear-filled.

Mm. And there was so much in my mind that I got to implement that in my life. And as, as I got worried or scared or anxious, literally just thinking about Jesus Christ, just thinking how, "Oh, this will be okay because I, I've made covenants with him. I- Yeah ... I, uh, I know he lives, I know he loves me, and he, he's gonna take care of things."

And just thinking on the Savior, mentioning him, praying to the Father in his name. It's what David does. It's not, "I got this." Yeah. It's like, "God will deliver. God will deliver. And, uh, with God, all things are possible." And so not exactly sure where it will end up, but it's gotta be Christ-centered and, and, uh, I can overcome my challenges if I have the Savior in my life.

Yeah, 100%. I appreciate you sharing all of that, and, and I love the focus on Jesus Christ, and both of you brought this up, that David is a type of Christ. I love the talk that Sister S- um, Andrea M. Spannaus gave in April of 2024, because she brought up this story. She gives great talks. Boy, she knows her Old Testament.

And here's a quote that she said, "While David used only one stone to kill Goliath, he was prepared with five." With five. This makes me think about how I can prepare myself to face the world. What if each of David's stones represented a strength we need to be triumphant in our lives? What could those five stones be?

And then she said, "I thought of these possibilities," and she listed what she thought her five stones could be. And then I asked you guys to think about what maybe your five stones could be, and I, I thought this was a great thing to do for all of us. Like, what would your five stones be, your five stones of faith?

Um, this was powerful. What did you guys come up with? And Jake, you kind of already got us started because you said, first of all, the sling is faith, but your stones were personal priesthood power, willingness, a motivation. I thought that was really great. Uh, e- because again, the thing that's cool is that he had five stones, but he only needed one.

So if you have five good stones in your pocket when the adversary comes or when your Goliath comes, just grab one. It's gonna work. Isn't that powerful to think of? Like, for me, the love of God, like, she listed that as one of her stones. That's the one that's gonna get her through it, and it does. What... Did you guys think about maybe what your stones were?

Yeah, I gave it some thought. I, again, it's, it's gonna sound cliche, but I, I'm thinking of Nephi and, uh, you know, he went beforehand not knowing the things that he would, that he would do. Like- Mm-hmm ... you would, you could look at it and say like, "Wow, he's unprepared." But if he was doing the Lord's will, like one of the stones has to be this idea that this is the cause.

This is the cause of Zion. This is, this is the Savior's work. Mm. Um, whether it's he's asked me to do something or he's asked me to go through a trial, I, I don't know how this would work, but one of the s- the primary stone, the first one I would take out would be that we've been talking about. It would be that faith and confidence in, in my Savior.

He loves me. He's not gonna let me go. He's not gonna let me drown. E- even if I- Mm-hmm ... even if I get scared and start sinking, like Peter on the water, all I have to do is call out to him, and he's there, boom, and, and he'll save me. And so my primary stone is, is, is the stone, is the rock, right? Oh, cool. Is, is Jesus Christ.

Boy, that's a good one. Absolutely. Do you have one you wanna add, Jacob? Um, I think... And just to put this statement out there, I think it's very important to have five stones. I think the most important thing about having five stones is that the difference, you know, or the different, you know, things that you're gonna come up with are gonna require a different stone.

Mm-hmm. I think that's very important to realize, um- You know, because it only, it takes one stone to defeat, you know, Goliath, but it had to be that one stone, you know? And whatever that stone represented for David, you know, it worked. Yeah. Maybe if it was a different challenge, maybe we, he would have chosen a different stone, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, um, I say that all metaphorically, talking about to his traits and also to our traits. You know, we're gonna have different, um, different challenges in our life, so we need to have our different stones to deal with them. Well, and isn't it so fun when we go back to that idea of what we looked up for the word prove, to put it to the test.

The reason why they're your stones is 'cause you put it to the test. Like, you have such a testimony, Jacob, of being willing to do something, of being motivated. Like, y- I've already learned that from you, of being God-driven, of personal priesthood power because you've had those experiences in your life. Th- so Jacob's someone I'm gonna put on my wagon train, you know?

If I gotta walk back to Missouri, he's the, he's the one that's willing to do it. He's worked with people who are hard to work with. Like, isn't that awesome? Your stones are gonna... are exactly what the Savior needs from Jacob. And John has the same thing. Like, everybody's got their five stones that they have proved, but we need everybody's stones.

So it's kind of neat that whenever you, uh, what, you know, he'll call on you. "All right, Jacob, it's your turn." And same with John. "All right, John, it's your turn. I got some young men who are gonna need some help being given advice through their missions. So you've proven these stones to be a bishop." 'Cause I wouldn't have picked you, John.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I wouldn't have picked me either. I totally would pick John. I love him so much. This is so funny. But yeah, this idea, like put it to the test. That's what you're doing right now with your life. You're putting your stones to test. So whatever you're going through right now, just think of it and go, "This has gotta be a stone moment.

The Lord is just helping me really polish this up to fight my next Goliath." So I dunno. That's awesome. I think it's kind of cool. I love that. But the neat thing is, is go back to verse 40 and highlight five. Highlight the number five, 'cause I thought this was really cool, that, uh, a lot of scholarship believes- That the number five in scripture actually is a representation of God's grace and protection.

And here's examples of five in scripture. We have God's law, which are the first five books of the Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. That's five. You have the 10 Commandments broken up into two quintets. The first five are about God and His relationship with mankind. The next five are about mankind.

Um, five played an important role in the construction of Moses' tabernacle. There's five curtains, five bars, five pillars, five sockets, all these fives in the tabernacle. And then we have five loaves of bread that fed 5,000. So it's just kinda cool, like, this idea of here, we, we read this again, five smooth stones, but how many times have I overlooked that?

And now I'm looking at that going, "He chose him five stones of grace." 'Cause again, we've kept saying he couldn't have done it on his own. So he had these stones in his pocket, and then you said, Jacob, that stone had to have been going so fast, right? I mean, that is grace right there. That's God's way of saying, "I'm gonna help this stone go a little bit faster."

Yeah, we, uh, we don't wanna leave out the five covenants of the- ... temple endowment. Perfection. Thank you for adding that. Thank you. I'm gonna put that down, five covenants. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Which we draw on, uh, you know, different blessings from different covenants in different situations. And so I think I like this idea of, of five.

And I don't know that he just tossed the four away. They were good stones. He probably held onto them and- Yeah ... and, uh, maybe used them later. But I, I love this idea that he went... It looked like ill-prepared, but- Yeah ... he had what he needed. He had what he proved, and he had more than he needed. Oh, that's so cool.

Wow, guys. Thank you so much for that discussion. David and Goliath, that was so awesome. I knew you would- Fun ... prevail, both of you. Thank you so much. I have so many great notes. Okay, so that's our story of David and Goliath. Now, we have another story we're gonna tell you, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask John to teach it to us- Yeah

because he is a master teacher. So John, I've asked him- You know how I love that term, master teacher, right? I know. You are. You're a great teacher. It... No, no, I hate that term. Every time it's given at, like, a setting, I'm like, "Jesus is coming? Oh, no." Just, it's just a person. So in the next segment, we will dive into what John gets to teach us from the storyline of David.

We'll do that next

Segment 5

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All right, John, hit it. I'm so excited. I have my p- my scripture marker, a pen, and I'm ready to learn. I, this is, 1 Samuel 24 is where the main story takes place. Okay. Um, but this is one of those, those stories that... And the Old Testament's cool like this for me. I forget how much I love a story. It's like I forget about the story, 'cause y- Old Testament's like, what?

Once every four years you go through it again. Yeah. I know there are some out there that that's, you know, they're, they're more consistent than that. But I forget about these little stories, and this is just one that I just love. And, and again, the behavior of David is so Christ-like. However, it's interesting, and we'll get to that, even though he's so Christ-like in this story, the very next chapter, uh, hi- his behavior's a little different.

Yeah. And we'll take a look at that, uh, as well. But just to set this story up, this starts way back in 1 Samuel 18 when, uh, when the people are singing that tribute ballad to David, and the line is in, in 18 verse 7, "Saul has slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands," right? And h- I don't know if there was prior jealousy, but Saul, he's enraged.

Yeah. Like something, uh, a switch flips in Saul. And a- any time he gets a chance, he starts throwing javelins at David. It's like, it's crazy. And, and David sticks around for a while. Uh, Saul even tries to get, uh, his son Jonathan involved in killing David, and, and Jonathan and, and David are, as we know, really good friends.

They're very close. Um, and Jonathan warns David, "You gotta hide. My dad's trying to kill you." And he's like, "Yeah, I know. He, he keeps throwing javelins at my, a- at me." And in, uh, one final attempt at his life, uh, you know, David's playing the harp after, you know, as one does after a long battle- Mm-hmm ... with the Philistines.

And, and Saul comes in, and I could see David having one eye on him and one eye on the music, and here comes another javelin thrown his way. And so it's at this point that David has to take off. And that, that, all those things happen with a lot more detail in chapters 18 through, through 23. Um, but, uh, he, he takes off, he's on the run, and Saul follows him.

And he doesn't just follow him alone. If we go to chapter 24, verse 1, "It came to pass when Saul was returned from following the Philistines, that it was told him, saying, 'Behold, David is in the wilderness of Engedi.'" Engedi. I looked it up to try to say it right. 'Cause I thought it was En Jedi and that sounded too Star Wars.

So I think it's En Gedi. David is in the wilderness of En Gedi. Then Saul took 3,000 chosen men out of all Israel and went to seek David and his men upon the rocks, uh, of the wild goats. Like 3,000 men. Yeah. And of course, Saul knows how incredible David is. I mean, the, the whole, the whole David and Goliath story, right?

And he knows, uh, uh, how skilled he is, and he knows how much he has confidence in the Lord. So he brings these men, and I guess he's tired, and so Saul finds a nice cave to take a nap in, and it happens to be the very cave that David is hiding in from Saul, and Saul goes to sleep, right? And the men that are with David are like, "Kill him.

Kill him. Now's your chance. This guy's been trying to kill you. Kill him." And, uh, David gets close enough to Saul while he's asleep to cut off the, you know, kind of the, the bottom of his skirt without waking him. And of course, the men with him are like, "Why? What, what the heck are you doing? Dude, you... What, what are we gonna do with this piece of skirt," right?

"What... This doesn't do anything. This guy's been pursuing you. He's got 3,000 men. He wants you dead." And I just, I just love verse six. And he said unto his men, "The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed." Like, what are your guys' thoughts about his reasoning? "The Lord forbid that I should do this thing unto my master, the Lord's anointed."

What are your thoughts? Wow. Yeah, that's kind of a deep one, eh? Uh, I think there's... I think, you know, David, he's just thinking, like, you know, again, you know, he's all about God. He's ready to do God's will. And I, I bet there's probably, you know, that little inkling of like, "Oh, man, you know, this is my chance to get back at him for throwing javelins at me," you know?

And, um, but he knew that that wasn't the way to do it, you know? Mm-hmm. Unless, unless if it wasn't, you know, told to him by God, you know, kind of like Nephi, right? When Nephi had to, had to take the life of Laban, you know, and God told him to do it. In this instance, God didn't tell him to do it. Yeah. Right? So he, he knew fully that this isn't what was supposed to be done.

Yeah. And it's kinda interesting when it says, "The Lord's anointed." I- for me, I guess I just don't understand what it's trying to say about him. Yeah. The, Samuel the prophet, um, uh, well, the prophet would have anointed one of these kings of Israel. And, uh- Mm-hmm ... and, uh, David recognizes that. Even though David has been kind of secretly anointed the next king by Samuel- Yeah

um, Saul is recognized by Samuel and the God as, as fallen, and he's going to be replaced. And i- i- in this moment, he's still calling him his master. He's still calling him the Lord's anointed, even though he, he knows he's next. He knows he's replacing Saul, uh, but he doesn't take it upon himself. And, and my mind just goes to priesthood leaders- Yeah.

Uh-huh ... organization presidents. It, it, it can be so easy sometimes to, to find fault, you know, to think things like, "I wouldn't do it that way," or, "Why are they having us do this?" Or, or, "If I was bishop," or, "If I was the- Mm-hmm ... Relief Society president." And that, that's minor compared to this. Saul wants him dead, and he still says, "No, he's the Lord's anointed, and I'm...

and it's not my place, uh, to take his life." Mm-hmm. That's- And I just, I'm just blown away by that. Yeah, I agree with you, John. Like, this is the first time in all of scripture I've actually taken the word anointed seriously, today, in this moment, when you asked us about this verse. Because it did, it made me think about the promise I make with that connection to that word, and then the idea, like, aren't we all anointed?

Even the worst of us have all been anointed in some way. Yeah. And how often we don't take that word- as seriously as maybe we should, 'cause David is such a great example. He had every right to kill Saul, and Saul was evil. That's a great way to look at that, John. Well, I, I just ... One of the things that impresses me most about men and women, uh, disciples of Jesus is their, their allegiance to, to their priesthood leaders.

Yeah. I, I just, I love, I love a scholar who is so true to the brethren. I, I just- Mm ... love that. I, I'm thinking of, uh, a local here in Morgan, uh, Calvin Stevens, who's- Oh, yeah ... one of the great church historians and, and a friend of mine. I'm, I'm pleased to call him a friend. And he is so faithful to the brethren.

He knows so much. Mm-hmm. But if, if an apostle or the prophet says something, that is, that is the law. And I, I see this i- in, in David, where I have been anointed the next king. Um, this guy wants me dead. He's clearly fallen. Yet it's not his, it's not his place to take him out. And I just, I think it's just a wonderful story of, of the poise he had.

I, I found a conference talk titled Christ-Like Poise from Elder Mark A. Bragg. It's a couple years ago, April, April 2023. Mm-hmm. And he just talks about what poise is in, in, in the moments of, in situations we find ourselves in when we have to make difficult decisions, and he uses the Savior as an example. I just wanna read this, this paragraph.

He said, "In the Garden of Gethsemane, in unimaginable agony, as he sweat, as it were great drops of blood, he exemplify- exemplified divine poise with the simple yet majestic statement, 'Not my will but thine be done.'" And he goes on to talk a little bit more about that. But in essence, that's what David's saying.

"This isn't my ... I'm doing the Lord's will. It's not my place to take the life of, of this, uh, of this- Hmm ... anointed king." And I just, I just think that's beautiful. And, uh, I, I can, I, I can deal with, with, with difficult people in my life. I can, I can sustain and follow, uh, priesthood leaders even if that's not quite the way I think I would do it.

But I get strength from David's example that, uh, it seems like he had every justifiable right to, to defend himself and, and, and take Saul out. But I love a couple verses here. Is that okay if I- Yeah ... uh, read a couple more? Saul gets up in verse seven, rose up out of the cave and went on his way. David also rose afterwards and went out of the cave.

And so, and cries after Saul. So Saul leaves the cave, and then he turns around 'cause he hears David in the cave. So he knows- Yeah ... this guy's been in the cave while I've been sleeping. Why am I alive? And Da- and, and he's calls after Saul saying, "My lord, the king." Yeah. And when Saul looked behind him, David stooped with his face to the earth and bowed himself.

My goodness, like- Wow ... th- this is incredible to me that the, the love that he has, a- and the sad thing is that love was reciprocated, uh, early on in their relationship, and something happened inside of him that that just changed. But David didn't, David didn't see his actions as being beyond love. And I go back to this idea that the commandment is to love one another, to love your neighbor, n- not like your neighbor.

I'm grateful the commandment isn't like your neighbor. Because sometimes it's hard to like certain people in our lives, and we try, and we try to find common ground, but we can love those we don't like. If David could love somebody who was actively trying to end his life- Right ... then I've got no excuses, ri- really.

And I think we're all, I think if we're in this situation, we're probably more like David than we think. I think we, we talk a big game in our head and I, I remember my grandpa telling a story once about next-door neighbor had a dog who just barked all night long. Just incessantly barked. And my grandpa was like, "Oh, I can't wait till that dog is gone to heaven," right?

And it's just so bad. And one night he's laying there and he hears the dog, but it's different, and it's, it's whining and howling, and he's like, "This is... What, what's going on?" So he goes outside in the middle of the night, and the dog who was chained up had jumped over the fence onto his side and was just hanging there And it wasn't gonna be a minute or two until the dog had expired, right?

Mm-hmm. And what did my grandpa do? Oh. Put the dog over the fence, and then the dog went back to barking all night long- ... as my grandpa lay there. And I thought when we get in those situations, I think, again, God gives us opportunities not to prove our faith to Him, not to prove, you know, if we're Christ-like or not to Him.

He already knows. But, but a lot of these situations it's, it's to show ourselves. We, we are good people. We, we do good- Yeah ... things. I do have faith in Jesus Christ. I can forgive when it's difficult. Uh, I don't know why. Sometimes it's easier when, when it's really a big thing that I need to forgive.

Sometimes it feels a little easier, 'cause you gotta dig deep. Mm-hmm. And, but if somebody cuts me off in traffic, I consign them to, you know, the inferno. But if they're broken down on the side of the road or they get in a wreck, I'm there to help, right? Yeah. That same person who I might, might think evil of because they dared pulled in front of me, I, I'm willing to, to be Christ-like in, in situations where, where I think it's needed.

I don't know that this is ever anything anybody would get out of this story, but it's just where my mind went as I, as I read through this story of, of David's Christ-like behavior with Saul. Oh, absolutely. Well, and how much do we love in verse 12? And I marked this. "The Lord judge between me and thee." Like, that is such a Christ-like response- Yeah

for David to say. Like, "Listen, who am I to judge?" Actually, you could, because he wanted to kill you, and he had took 3,000 men to do it. Right. And here's David like- ... "You know what? I'm just gonna let the Lord judge between me and thee." Section 64. Um- Yeah ... it's in the, it's in the footnote. "Let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds."

I just think that's a beautiful line, right? Yep. I- It's not my place. And that's, that's a relief. That's a lot of work to try to accurately judge somebody. I mean, we don't, we don't know their story. We don't know them. Mm-hmm. We don't know what's going on in them. And, well, and I, and I, we're, we're, um, we're almost idolized, idolizing David here, and he almost seems infallible the way we're talking about him.

And, and this is why I'm grateful, like The next chapter is in here. Um- Yeah ... un- unlike- Yeah, with Abigail. Yeah. Unlike the savior, David's not perfect. Mm-hmm. And this man who does so many incredible things, uh, I love the word churlish in verse three. Yes. This man, uh, was churlish, and he treated David with some rudeness.

There's more details in the story that I don't know that we need to go into, but he treated him with rudeness, and so David starts to plan revenge on him. Yeah. This is the next chapter. Yeah. And it took the pleading of a Christ-like woman, uh, Abigail, to help David realize, "Okay, my feelings and plans are wrong," right?

And, and so even this seemingly infallible, like untouchable, uh, Christ figure in David, um, he's got his weaknesses, and, and, uh, and he's not beyond, uh, you know, being tempted and, and even sinning. And it took somebody else. Yeah. It took another Christ-like person, in this case a woman, Abigail, to kind of talk him, talk him down a little bit and say, "Hey, you can see where you're going wrong here."

And David's so grateful for that, right? Yeah. He's so grateful. I'm so grateful for people in my life where, you know, that mostly my wife, um, when I'm churlish- ... she's able to, to be the Abigail and come in and, and say, "Hey, maybe we're looking at this the wrong way." Yeah. Um, my wife, uh, my wife will tell me something and somebody said something, and I'm like, "But did, did you say this back?

Did you, did you help them see that they were wrong?" Yeah. And she's like, "No, I just..." And I'm like, "Why not?" You know, it's just like, oh, you had such a- Yeah ... chance. And, and she's like, "We just let it, we just let it go," right? Let- Mm-hmm ... let God judge between, between me and thee. I think that's such a beautiful line.

Well, John, I love so much that you've brought up this idea of, you know, rather than making sure that we just talk all good about David, that he is a man. He's not Christ. Yeah. And that he... Yeah, I love how you just said in the very next chapter he won't be Christ-like at all. Yeah. And so this is gonna be a great way to end our whole discussion, because we've been trying to find Christ throughout this whole storyline.

And in the next segment, we're gonna find another example of how David did something right, and then in his own storyline did something wrong, where he was Christ-like, and then he wasn't. And we'll show you what we mean in the next segment.

Segment 6

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When you need advice, who's your go-to? Who do you go to for advice? And it may be different, different scenarios. I don't know. There's a couple people I go to 'cause I know what the answer will be. I, I think it depends on what I'm looking for advice in. Um- Mm-hmm ... I mean, if I, if I... Certain things my wife is absolutely the go-to.

In fact, most things would be my wife. There's some topics she's not so familiar with, and so I might go elsewhere, but I think my number one, Sunny, my wife. Perfect. What about you, Jake? I would said definitely my dad. Like, my dad, he knows a lot, and I don't know how he knows it. Like, he just knows- ... exactly what I need to hear.

Oh, stop. Go on. Exactly what I... Well, no, it's kinda weird. He's like a jack of all knowledge. I don't understand. No, you're, you know- Master, master of it all ... you're totally right. This guy knows... You're right. He knows a lot of stuff. I remember that. Yeah. He knows a little bit about everything. Yeah, exactly, right.

Well, thank you, Jake. And, um, yeah, but yeah, he's really... I, I can always depend on my dad when I'm looking for an answer for- Oh, that's great ... quite literally anything, so. Very cool. Okay, and then let me ask you this. Who do you think the world goes to when they need advice? Social media Yeah, I'd say definitely social media

the internet. Mm-hmm. I hope, I hope I'm being... I hope I'm wrong, right? I hope, I hope so many people have good friends and that they go to, and, and family, um, as well. But I think we put too much, uh- Yeah ... we give too much credit to the, to the internet. It's, it's crazy to me how somebody will change their entire life because somebody on the internet they've never met said- Mm-hmm

said to. Um- Yeah ... I, I just, I, I can't. That, that, that blows my mind. It's powerful. Are you speaking specifically of church stuff? Well, y- yeah, I've seen it. I've seen it. Yeah, for sure. Uh, unfortunately I've seen a, a, a trend lately of, you know, if somebody in your family or your parents, if you don't like what they're doing, they're toxic.

Get rid of them. Cut them off. And- Mm-hmm ... and I've seen that being a trend in, in a lot of, a lot of different places and people. And it's a sad thing. You, you, you love your family, you've loved them your whole life. You've learned to get along. Nobody's perfect, and then this person is teaching this, this philosophy of men.

And- Yeah ... all of a sudden it's, it's the way to do it. It's the way to go. And the prophets are saying this in conference, and the scriptures are teaching this, and be peacemakers and forgive, yet this person who I've never met. And so I, I think maybe m- maybe we all do believe a little bit too much what, what the world has to say.

Oh, that's great. Go, Jake. I always think it's just so funny, 'cause I remember in school, and I would be in English or something like that, and they'd be like, "Oh, you gotta cite your sources." And you could not have Wiki as a source. Mm-hmm. It was, like, banned, right? And- Yeah ... I always wondered why. And they're like, "Well, it's because people can change, you know, the stuff."

And I'm like, "Well, they can do that on everything that's on, you know, the so- Mm-hmm ... on social media, on the internet. Anything can be changed and rewritten at any time. Like, who, who decides of what's what, right? And I think- Yeah ... if we all carried that, like, you know, I guess Wiki state of mind, right- ... where we can kind of think of, like, okay, you know, where did this, where does this come from?

Or, you know, is it honest? Is it trustable, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause I've always thought, like, if, you know, if Wiki can do it, anything can do it, you know what I mean? Like, if- Yeah ... anything out there can be changed and manipulated, you know, the, the philosophies of man are everywhere out there. And so I just wish we would all take a second and kind of just think about, like, you know, h- how much on the internet is true, and what can we rely on?

'Cause for me, the only thing I can really rely on is, you know, priesthood power. You know, the people that have- Mm-hmm ... that priesthood that are able to receive that revelation for me. Um, but- Oh, excellent answer That's what I always just found so interesting about, you know, people. 'Cause people would be like, "Oh, I can't trust Wiki," but then they'll trust some random influencer on- Yeah

you know, on social media or something. And it's like, I don't know, just kind of funny to me, that's all. Okay, here's a picture I think you're gonna like. This was shared in a general conference, so you might remember it. But in 2014, the National Geographic photo contest, they received more than 9,200 submissions by professional photographers, um, over 150 different countries, and this is the winning photo.

And I think it depicts perfectly what we've described about where the world goes to for their advice. And when you see it, you two describe what you see. What is it? Everybody looking down at their phones. Is that what I'm seeing? Yeah, just the woman in the middle. Can you see her? Oh, yeah. She's all lit up and looking at her phone.

And she's surrounded by people, right? Yeah. One of my favorite pictures I've ever seen is you're actually looking at the crowd that's looking at something, and- Ooh, yeah ... everybody has their phone recording it except this one little old lady leaning on the rail just watching. Yeah. And everybody else has their phone out.

And you don't even know what they're seeing, but it's just powerful. This woman's just, she's just taking in the actual moment, and, uh, we're tuning everybody else out because- Mm-hmm ... because we have... there's something so important- Yeah ... on the screen. And this, this picture struck me 'cause there's people all around her she could be engaging with and talking to, and I'm wondering, is she on her phone getting advice?

Is she wondering about a situation and how it just lights up the darkness all... It just is such a good picture. And, and your answers were so spot on because one of the things that we learn from David is where he gets a- his advice, and we love this scripture chain. So we're gonna do a scripture chain, and we're gonna go and just read these verses, and we'll end with maybe when he didn't use the certain kind of advice.

So we're gonna start. John, will you please read 1 Samuel 23:2? "Therefore David inquired of the Lord, saying, 'Shall I go and smite these Philistines?' And the Lord said unto David, 'Go and smite the Philistines and save Keilah.'" Okay. So what, what should we underline in that verse? Uh, inquire to the Lord. Perfect.

Jake, will you please read for us chapter 23, verse 4? Yeah, sure. Um, it says, "Then Dav- and then David inquired of the Lord yet again, and the Lord answered him and said, 'Arise and go down to, uh, Keilah, and I will deliver the Philistines into thy hand.'" Perfect. Hi. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you're good. Let's underline, "David inquired of the Lord yet again."

Then we go to 1 Samuel 30:8, and it says here, "And David inquired of the Lord saying, 'Shall I pursue after this troop? Shall I overtake them?' And He answered him, 'Pursue, for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail recover all.'" So there's David inquiring of the Lord. Let's- Yes. Can I solve the riddle, please?

It's David inquired of the Lord. You are correct. So I'm gonna give you a couple more scriptures- This is cool ... and you can put these in your scripture chain. So write, um... so next to verse eight, put 2 Samuel 2:1. And then we'll go there, and I'll give you the next scripture, and you can mark it on your own.

We don't have to read it, but you can just see in 2 Samuel 2:1 it says, "And David inquired of the Lord." Then the next one you wanna put in is 2 Samuel chapter 5. So to the outside of that verse write 2 Samuel 5:19. And there it is again And David inquired of the Lord And David inquired of the Lord. To the outside of that verse, put 2 Samuel 21:1, and you're gonna see it again 2 Samuel, "And David inquired of the Lord."

And you did. You solved the riddle. Awesome. So this is what he does all the time. He goes to- That's cool ... inquire of the Lord, like, "Should I fight? What should I do?" And then you wanna end in 2 Samuel 21:1. You wanna put 2 Samuel 11:1. It's the one time he didn't go inquire of the Lord about a fight. And 2 Samuel, chapter 11 is David and Bathsheba.

He stayed behind when kings go forth to battle. Can I just point one thing out? In a lot of these verses, I don't know if it was all of them, the very next thing was, "And the Lord answered." You know? Mm-hmm. And it goes back to that living God thing we talked about. Yes. I think it's interesting in the Old Testament that they call them dumb idols.

We don't use that term anymore, but they don't speak. Um. Oh, I love it. The, the living God answers when we inquire, but the living God can't answer if we don't inquire. And so I think y- you're spot on. He did not inquire of the Lord in this situation. I like how you just taught us, though, the living God answers.

The living God answers. That is so cool, and for us to remember that. Because when we have a problem, who do we go to? We absolutely have our people that we can go to, but when the world doesn't stop to think about who they're going to... I love the idea, Jacob, because God isn't a wiki God or a dumb idol.

Like, He is a source that you wanna cite in every scenario in our lives. And so I had you guys kind of prepare for this whole, uh, segment by reading a talk by Elder Holland, and I'm just curious to know what stood out to you about inquiring of the Lord. And it's a conference talk called Motions of a Hidden Fire by President Holland.

And I just wanna know what stood out to you from this talk when it comes to inquiring of the Lord. What did you learn from Elder Holland's conference talk? I can, I can take, uh, a second here. I- Great ... I, I think, I think we often teach prayer wrong. Um, in primary, remember you pray in the morning, and you pray over your food, and you pray at night, and you will read that nowhere in the scriptures.

Uh, it's, it's pray always. Yeah. That's what the scriptures say. And Elder Holland says, "There are no limits to when, where, or about what we should pray. According to the revelations, we are to pray always." And I just think that's such a great reminder. Um- Mm-hmm ... most of our... most of my most sincere prayers, unfortunately, aren't on my knees.

Um, it's, it's when I'm in a moment of, of gratitude or, or need or temptation, um, those are the prayers that I'm- I'm so grateful we can pray always. It doesn't have to just be in the morning by my bed or on my face at night on my bed, which isn't a good way to pray. Um, but I'm so grateful that the command is to, and, and He's always open.

He's a 24/7 God that- Mm-hmm ... that's available to answer our prayers. And I like how he said our prayers ought to be vocal. Yeah. Can we just fix that, everybody? Like, I think w- our, unfortunately, culture has sh- you know, scared us into not praying out loud. Let's just nix that right- like, everybody wipe that off your dry erase brain.

Start praying out loud. It's okay. We've tricked s- I think Satan's done a great job of making us think we can't pray out loud, so we don't. That's interesting. Those are some of my most heartfelt prayers. I love an out loud prayer when I'm driving in my car and I'm really talking with the Lord. Yeah. 'Cause those prayers at night in my mind, I just fall asleep.

I'll own it. Yeah. The, the- Yeah ... or the ones where you're in your bed already nice and cozy, so you're rolled to the side. I'll just say my prayer right here, and then you're out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Come on. I've been there once or twice- Sure. No, me ... this past week. Okay. But I love it. Like, pray out loud. Yeah. He wants to hear from you.

'Cause vain, vain repetitions sounds stupider when you hear yourself say them out loud. Like, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's e- I've noticed it's easier to be... And I'm not, I'm not good at doing this. I, I wanna, I wanna try this, but the... it's, it's hard to pray out loud and not be a little more sincere Yeah

than just, just in your own mind when we just kinda... We've all rolled out of bed in the morning and we're like, "Heavenly Father, please, please bless the food." Yeah. "And then we try to, we try to fix it that I'll eat later today." Uh-huh. Um, 'cause we're just kinda rolling through things we've heard our entire lives.

But vocally, I think there's some power in that. Yeah. And it's an apostle telling us- Right there ... to do so. 'Cause listen, you're like, "But Satan's gonna hear it." You think he wants to be in your prayers? He's not in a sacred space. No. What? No. No. That's so silly. Pray out loud. That's what I got. Go ahead, Jacob.

What'd you get from that talk? Um, I def- yeah, pray out loud, uh, I really like that just 'cause, I mean, when, when I pray out loud, it brings such more of a Like, oh, I'm, I'm talking to somebody. You know, when you pray in your mind, it can kind of sometimes feel like you're talking to yourself a little bit.

Yeah. When you pray out, when you pray out loud, you're like, "Okay, I'm actually talking to somebody that is there and listening." That's at least what I've gotten from it. And also what I've gotten from this conference talk, we should be praying about quite literally everything. Why would we wanna leave God out of anything?

That's what- I love that ... I always got from this talk. And, uh, w- it actually happened today, uh, or maybe it was yesterday, that it, I lost my wallet, and we were looking everywhere for it. And luckily, my dad came to save the day and found it for me. But, um- ... while I was sitting there, like we, we came to the conclusion, we're like, "Man, maybe you should pray about it, you know?

And be-" Mom's idea. Yeah, m- my mom's idea, of course. I, I don't think about stuff like that. I really should, but. Um, and we were about to pray with, uh, pray about it, and my dad comes up with my wallet. And I just like, I kind of blurted this out, I didn't mean to say it, I'm like, "Why didn't, why, why, why wasn't that the first thing we did?

Why didn't we pray-" Oh ... "about it at the very beginning?" You know, like we should have done that. Like, why do we wait for so long to ask for help when God is like- Mm-hmm ... there ready to help us? Like even with the simple things like losing your wallet or losing your keys. Like, I felt like right when I realized I lost it, I should have just been like, "Hey, Heavenly Father, can you help me for a second?"

You know? Like, why is that embarrassing? But for some reason it is. Like- Mm. Sometimes- Not to Tammy- Yeah ... 'cause I remember her praying. She, your, you preach pray for lost keys, right? Is that you? You bet I do. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember that. Yeah, my kids know you can pray for anything lost. That, that's one testimony they have.

But I like, Jacob, that you said, because I was gonna say, in fact, I loved my question was to me, well, when, has there been a time when you've inquired of the Lord? And Jacob's like, "I've already got one yesterday." But I love that idea. Like why is our go-to not immediately inquire of the Lord? Like you bet.

Pray to find lost keys, pray to get married, pray for all the things. And, and again, I love how we even started this whole episode with John, you know, just saying that you received a revelation in your office. Here you are praying for your unborn child, and as you're inquiring of the Lord, you got an answer completely different than you thought.

Mm-hmm. That He's not a dumb idol. Yeah. He really does hear our prayers. Yeah. And then He will do us one better by saying, "You came to me, let me help you. I'm not gonna trick you." I, I think that's so powerful in all of this. So thank you, Jacob, for sharing that story. Lost keys. Pray for lost keys. Yeah. Pray for anything.

Inquire of the Lord. Can I sh- can I share, I think I can... Me personally, I can be more, um, passionate when I pray out loud. It's hard to be passionate in my mind. Um- Mm-hmm ... and Jake doesn't know this, but w- he got, he got an infection in his hand on his mission in New Zealand, and, and, uh, they pumped him full of antibiotics and- Actually, I did know that happened to- Well, okay, sorry.

You knew this part. Yeah, I- Sure. He was there. Yeah. They damaged, damaged his kidneys a bit, and he was going through some really painful, difficult, uh, times. And, and, uh, I went out to the living room one night just on my knees and buried my head in the couch cushion, and, and out loud, like, pleaded. Like, out loud pleaded.

Because 7,000 miles away, you're- Mm-hmm ... so helpless. And I know my kid's there just suffering. And I, I realized how passionate, how much more passionate I was out, out loud vocally. And it wasn't loud, but as Jake pointed out, I, I'm actually communicating to somebody. I'm talking to somebody. It's not, it's not thoughts in my head.

It's- Yeah ... I'm literally verbalizing, and I'm using more of my body, literally my vocal cords to- Yeah ... to, to have an experience with Heavenly Father. And there was a lot of peace and, and comfort that came from, from that vocal, uh, prayer I offered. Wow. Thank you, John. Thank you, John. Thank you, Jake. That was a great discussion.

That's the end. We're done. You guys are awesome. Wow, the Spirit was so strong today, and so just Christ-centered. I loved all of it and everything you shared. So just gather your thoughts, and is there any eternal truth that you learned or relearned, or what's your takeaway from this discussion? This is where I get out my notes from all the things you guys said.

You know, if I was to take everything that we talked about and just put it into, like, you know, like a simple phrase is that the Lord is our Father- Mm-hmm ... and He wants us to be on His side, and He is on ours 100%. You know, no matter what we do, whatever happens, He's there for us. He's there to guide us, to help us, to talk to us especially.

But that's, that's what I would get from this, is that, you know, we have a heavenly Father, and He does have a living Son who is Je- who is Jesus Christ. And they're both there to help us in any way that we need. That's awesome. Thank you Thank you, Jake Um, I think my final thoughts would be is as ill-equipped as I feel to deal with some of the, uh, circumstances and challenges of, of mortality, I know it's not possible just to get through it, but to actually conquer a- and, and be successful w- with the Savior.

You know? Mm-hmm. It was, it was David's inquiring of the Lord. It was David doing what he did to, to Goliath in the name of the Lord. Um, and i- I, I don't know that David was so special on his own, uh, because we saw when he left the Lord out, w- when he forgot to inquire of the Lord or intentionally chose not to, um, or allowed his feelings of anger, uh, get the best of him, i- there's no praying to the Lord in those chapters.

Yeah. It's so interesting. It's- Oh, I like that ... it's when he leaves Jesus out of his life that he f- fails, and when he includes him, he's, he's absolutely successful. It's almost like there's no, there's no gray ground w- uh, gray area when you know. You're either gonna succeed- Yeah ... or you're gonna fail. Um, and, uh, I think I, I, I need to do better.

I need to be better at including the Lord in, in every aspect of, of my life. Wow. Great. Great insight, John. Thank you. Um, mine is when John, when you talked about faith and you said you don't know how much you have until it's all you have. That was so great, and I will always remember that. And then lastly, Jake, you just said it so many times, God-driven.

I am gonna set a goal to be more God-driven in all that I do. And I think just based on your story and all the things you've shared, you are a God-driven soul. You have that in your heart, and that's pretty powerful gift to have, Jake. So thank you for teaching that to me today. That was really great. So, thanks, you guys.

Thank you. I love you guys. This was great. Love you, too. That was a cool experience. Tell Sunni I love her and I'm coming for her next. Hey, she'd be great. Yeah, she would be good. A lot to offer. And welcome home, Jacob. Oh, thank you. Well, what eternal truth did you learn? Please join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you've learned.

And then throughout the week we're gonna post a question from this discussion. I wanna know, who do you go to for advice? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.

And go there anyway because it's where we're gonna have links to all the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

And today our incredible study group participants were John Haywood and Jake Haywood. Boy, I love you guys. And Sunni, shout out to Sunni. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember- remember, you are God's favorite.