The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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Who needs some advice? And not the take it with a grain of salt kind of advice, or the Charlie Brown and Lucy the doctor is in type advice. Bad advice. Because 2 Kings chapters 16 through 25 has a lot of good advice, and this is the advice lesson. So whatever you're going through, this week's Come, Follow Me lesson will hopefully have some really good advice that you can use.

I mean, after all, it was the advice that the Lord gave to his people in the southern kingdom of Israel who were really struggling, so it might help you. Couldn't hurt, might help. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, follow the link in our description and it can explain how you... Bleh, try that again. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study.

Just like my longtime listening friend, Lynette Searle from Lehi, Utah. Lynette, thank you for saying hi to me. It made my day. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different each week. And today, oh, today, listen, you have to know, I cried as soon as I saw their faces, and we weren't even recording.

We just got on and I started to sob. That is how special this episode is. Today we have Jennifer Brinkerhoff-Platt. Hi, Jen. How are you, Tammy? And Jen's been on a couple of times before, but she sent me a picture several months ago with this woman, and I wept. And her name is Susette Gee Kunz. Hello, Susette.

Well, hello. Okay, Susette, why did I weep? You're probably like, "I don't know, you baby." Because we were mission companions. Ah. Susette was my trainer. Ah. Oh. Yes. This is... Listen, these two women have shaped the woman I am today. They have had a huge impact on my life, and it started with Susette because I thought I, I thought I knew stuff.

All right? I, I thought I was a believer. And then I get her as a trainer, and this woman changed my life, and I just adore her so much. I can't even like... And it's so tender for me 'cause my... I was saying to you, Susette, my daughter's on a mission with her trainer, and I'm like, "Oh, please be like Susette.

Please be like Sister Gee." Oh, Sister Gee. Sister Gee was the best. Ah. So this is fun because now, Jen, talk about how you two know each other. Well, first I have to say, I hope everyone can feel the joy of your reunion, and that here I am with all this emotion as a witness to it. Like, you can't see their faces, friends-

but there is just this joy. And Susette's beaming like a proud mother. Yeah. You know? L- looking at Tammy- Right ... going, "Look who you are and what you're doing." Yeah. Anyway, I'm It's like Alma the Younger and the sons of Mosiah. Yes, it totally is- ... and it's, it is just, it's the joy. And I think, I, I hope this is something we're gonna talk about today because we're gonna scatter Israel and talk about gathering it, and you two are witnesses of the joy that comes of doing that.

And so- Oh, amen ... so I just am really happy to get to see what's happening already. It's just covenant joy. Um, okay. So Susette and I were matched to volunteer in a middle school classroom, and I was there because I have a child in the class. She was there because she is a really generous and good person.

And we went every week for how long, Sis? Nine weeks? Yeah, yeah, right around there. A couple of hours, and, um, we helped these, a little group of kids do an inquiry project to understand children's experiences of the Teton Dam failure that happened 50 years ago, which Suzette was a child of. And anyway, I don't know.

Suzette just... And it was quick, and I just loved her quick. So- Mm-hmm. It was really fun. And yeah, I was five when the dam broke, and, uh, have very vivid memories of it. But as I was working on a PhD, I decided to make that my project of reading all the interviews that they did with the, the survivors and, and hear their experiences and analyze them.

So they kind of reached out to me because I had that background. But it was re- really fun to work with those kids. They were crazy, but it was fun. We laughed a lot. Yes. And I'm now reading the book Anxious Generation as a result.

Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. That's funny. Oh, how I wish I could've been in that classroom. That would've been awesome. It, it was. In a lot of ways, it was. Yeah. Um, it's fun to see kids in their environment, especially since one of them was mine. Um. Wow. And then you two made the connection you know me, and so you took a picture- Yeah

and sent it to me, and my heart swelled. Yep. Yes. Oh, I was so thrilled about that picture, and then I thought, "Oh my gosh, we have to have both of them on the episode. That would be so fun." H- and then I thought, "How have I not had Suzette all these years?" Like, someone who's changed my life, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I don't...

It was Suzette? Is that her name? Oh my gosh, what's my problem?" Yeah, Suzette. Who, who is that again? So the timing is perfect, and fun f- just, Suzette, tell us a little bit about yourself so the people know where you're from, are you married, where do you work, what's your story? Yeah. Yeah, so I grew up in Idaho, in Sugar City, and, um, I taught English in Utah for a while.

I taught at American Fork High School, and then I went back to BYU and got my master's, taught there for a while, and then I came to BYU-Idaho in 2004. And, um, this is home. I have a lot of family around here. But like you two, I got married much later in life. I got married when I was 43. And so now I am married to Corey Coons, who is an amazing man, and we have eight kids, uh, eight stepkids for me, and, um, seven grandkids, and just living the dream.

We, we love it. And I'm still working at BYU-I. It's a wonderful place to l- to work, so. And what do you teach at BYU-I? I teach English. Sorry, yeah. Yeah. So I'm in the English department, so I teach a lot of freshman writing, I teach some young adult literature, work a little bit with, uh, students who wanna teach English.

And yeah, it's just great. Very cool. And Jen, give us a brief reminder for people who are new. Tell us a little about yourself as well. Okay. Also teaching at BYU-Idaho, which is so fun. Suzette and I kind of live the dream, in that we take the spring semester off. And so right now I'm immersed in a garden. We do a shared community garden, about an acre, with four or five other families, and it is my happy place.

This year I put in, um, over 100 dahlia tubers- ... so we're gonna be vibrant with flowers, as well as vegetables and berries. Um, anyway, that's truly, this is my life right now. I love- I love it ... I love growing things. I, actually, that's just, I think that's my greatest description. I love growing things and people.

Um, and I, we have two children. They're 10 and 12. Camilla left for young women camp this morning. Oh. I don't know how you send someone on a mission. Um, and when they ask you to write that letter for them to read for their little- Oh ... experience- Mm-hmm ... that's pressure, you guys. Mm-hmm. Well, wait till you've done one- Uh-huh

for like multiple years. You get to that last letter and you're like, "S- I, I don't know what I can write. I, I'm sorry." I've said it all. Major mom fail. Just fun fact- Yeah ... major mom fail last year, 'cause I had to do it, and I was like, "I've done this letter so many times," so I thought, "I know, here's a great idea.

I'll get my kids gift cards." I got my girls their favorite restaurant, $20 gift cards to their favorite place, right? I'm thinking, "I am the best." And I wrote in the card, "You know how I feel about you. If you want, we can talk about it later. Love ya," and put the gift card in there. They were devastated. They were so mad.

They're like, "All the girls got their nice letters from their parents and all we got was a stupid gift card." I'm like, "You're entitled." Okay, maybe it wasn't my best. Oh, my. Major mom fail. She loves Enola Holmes and there's a third one coming out, and her brother wrote her a letter that says, "Don't worry, I'll watch it without you and spoil it for you when you get home."

Oh, man. That's rude. I love that brother. He- So he'll read that. Sh- Uh-huh ... I, I did it to the... Anyway, we'll talk later about this. Okay. This is so fun. But it was massive pressure. It is. It w- that first letter is, 'cause you gotta nail it. Yeah. You want them crying at girls camp, which is great, 'cause they will.

It's, it's perfect, so. For a million reasons. Yeah. That's why I... I'm like, "Just expect all the emotions and it's all okay." Oh, it's the best, girls camp. Have you gone yet, Suzette? I- We're going next week. Yeah. Yes. 10 out of 10, love it. Okay. Well, if you wanna know more about my guests, I mean, look at that. We could talk for- this is gonna be so fun.

You'll wanna see their bios and see their pictures. Those are in our show notes. You can find them at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. So everyone grab your scriptures, something to mark them with, and let's dig into 2 Kings 16-25. Okay, first things first, ladies. Just tell me, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were preparing for this discussion today?

Okay, I'll go first. Um, if we look at chapter 20, verse, you know, 1, 2, and 3, it's kind of sobering for Hezekiah because Isaiah shows up and says, "Set your house in order. You're gonna die." And, uh, apparently had this big boil infection thing. And he turned his face to the wall and prayed unto the Lord. Now, I don't know if I'm just an English teacher, but I'm like, this is a lot of detail.

They knew he actually turned over in bed and was, like, crying, and I'm like, "Who wrote this?" And I was looking online and they said, you know, they don't know for sure, but they do think Isaiah may have had, you know, kind of been keeping some of these records. And you can kind of see it here because he's like, Isaiah was leaving and the Lord told him to turn around and tell him this.

And so, um, anyway, I just love all that detail. I think it makes Hezekiah such a relatable person. But he's like, "Lord, I've walked before thee with a good heart. I'm not ready to die." And, and then h- uh, God promises him, "Okay, you have 15 more years." Hmm. And this just leaped out to me because in May of 2022, I was taken to the hospital with severe abdominal pain.

Found out I had a huge tumor and- Went to surgery at Huntsman, and I've just been dealing with cancer really ever since then. So I, I did treat- I did surgery and treatment in 2022, and was really hopeful that that was it for me. And then, uh, came back in 2025, so we did chemo again and surgery. So I just feel like in some ways I relate with Hezekiah because I feel like I'm on borrowed time a little bit.

And I also think, "Well, what would you do if he, if the Lord literally said you have five more years or 15 more years?" Like, what would you do differently? And it definitely makes you reevaluate your life and how you're spending your time. Not that I always spend my time correctly, but, um, but it's, it was just very sobering for me and for my family.

But I- Mm-hmm ... I just wanted to share this passage from Camille Johnson's. She gave a talk in April 2025 that I felt like was for me. It was, um, Spiritually Whole in Him. And, and she said, "What if we're not healed, but we can be whole?" Mm. And I really needed to hear that because I, I just felt so sad that it, the cancer had come back because then it typically means it's just gonna keep coming back.

And I just thought I could see my whole life before me, and it wasn't gonna be great. And so she just said this thing, um, she says, "We are whole in Jesus Christ when we exercise our agency to follow him in faith, submit our hearts to him so he can change them, meekly enduring and learning from the challenges of this earthly estate until re- till we return to his presence and are healed in every way."

And that's just kind of been my, my touchpoint for the last few years, is just I, I would love to say I knew how long I have. I would love to say I know it's not gonna come back. But, um, but I just feel like the Lord has taught me, you just need to submit to this. You have to submit to it. And I can turn this into a beautiful experience.

And I have always been someone who is trying to plan my whole life out every, you know, step of it. And it's, it's just kind of that, that meekness of just like you can't plan. You know what? Mm-hmm. You just have to live right now. And whatever happens, you have to continue to rely on the Lord. So that really touched me in this section of scripture.

Hmm. Wow. Thank you, Susan. That was beautiful. I will never forget that verse, verse two. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How many times did I read it in prep- in preparing? Yeah. But to turn to the wall and pray unto the Lord. Mm-hmm. I put your name next to it in my scripture, so thank you. Ugh, I love that. I'm curious, did you change...

Did anything in your life change with your second diagnosis? I do think I am a lot more- reliant on the Lord. Um, I, not that I mean to, but I do have that, this habit of relying on my own understanding and my own ... Yeah, and it's partially 'cause I, I just analyze a lot, and so sometimes I'm just in my head, and I need to just stop that and just turn to the Lord.

So I really have ... It's the first time I've felt like I literally cannot do this. I need all of your strength to help me. And even as I finished treatment and was trying to come back to work, I was really terrified. I'm like, "Can I even do this?" Uh, you know, because when you're doing chemo, they have this thing called chemo brain, and it is so hard to concentrate and think clearly.

And I just thought, "I don't know if I can do this." And I just felt just such a literal presence of God sustaining me as I went back to teach, and it was beautiful. It was just so humbling. Mm-hmm. And, and so I think it is just, in general, just not just thinking I know, know what's best and how to do it, but just to turn to the Lord more completely for that strength.

Wow. Thank you. That's cool. I love it. Beautiful. Love you Okay, what about you, Jen? Something that got my attention, it, and this is back in ... There's a couple things. Like, I really loved that this section in Come Follow Me had one of those little preface chapters. Mm-hmm. Um, it was called Jesus Will Say to All Israel, Come Home.

And I loved reading that and getting a really crisp framework of the scattering. Oh, yes. And, and to look at that and to say, okay, I can see ... Like, so from that, from the Come Follow Me manual, it tells us they rejected the very thing that made them a distinct nation, their covenant relationship with the Lord.

Without God's power protecting them, there was nothing to stop their enemies. And then what got my attention, having read that, was in chapter 17 in verse 26, and I'm gonna start partway through the verse, but this principle which it's not the ideal, they know not the manner of the God of the land. And it's repeated a couple of times.

And then again, so it's, uh, that's how the verse ends. But then in verse 27, then the King of Assyria commanded saying, "Carry thither one of the priests whom ye brought from thence, and let them go and dwell there, and let them teach them the manner of the God of the land." Mm-hmm. And I, I, I just wrote this little note that how many of our problems stem from not knowing God, from His nature, His character, and who He is?

And, and I, I can feel scattered when I'm not riveted on knowing God. And so my personal scattering is attached to detaching. Mm. And, and to be able to say, I just want to be so clear. Like, okay, back to this little letter I wrote to Camilla, that, that the thing that ... I started it out, she loves Wicked, and I used that, "Dearest Darlingest, Camilla loves popsicles."

It's how I wrote it. Instead of Ma. That's cute. And, and told her there's been some emotion over Camilla going to camp, but of course you rise above it. Um, and, and then as I rewrote this little silly song she loves, I said, but the song I really want in your head is I Am a Child of God. And I want you to really ponder that connection that your divine nature, your, your covenant connection to Him as His beloved child is what keeps you gathered, um, that keeps you connected And that then just established this theme.

Like, everything I read, suddenly that was shaped of scattered or gathered, scattered or gathered, and what's going on to cause a scattering or to create a gathering or a covenant connection. Jennifer, I love how you've just set up this whole discussion with that idea, scattered or gathered, because that is exactly the message.

And how that is just so profound when you think about all of the advice then that's given, because the northern kingdom of Israel's gonna be scattered, and then we're hoping that the southern kingdom won't be. Like, let's hope they'll be gathered. And so they're getting so much good advice on how to stay gathered and not scattered, and I just...

I love, I love how you apply it to our own lives, 'cause we do feel scattered today. And the ideas I love first, and this is really cool because President Nelson said that's the most important thing for us to know is that we are children of God. Wow, that was good. What a great thing you learned. Well, okay, and I love that we're in 2 Kings 17 because let's just go to, in the same chapter.

This is crazy story, but this is how naughty this, the northern kingdom of Israel was, is the verse of, be right before the one you shared, is the Lord was so furious and just He couldn't save them anymore that in verse 25 of chapter 17, the Lord sent lions. Like, that's crazy. I mean, that verse right here.

"And so it was, at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they feared not the Lord: therefore the Lord sent lions among them, which slew some of them." Okay. And, you know, like, people are like, "That is just so mean. What a mean God." How do you answer that? I, I was just reading this morning from President Oaks a talk he gave back in 2009 talking about obedience, and he was trying to express to us love and law, and I just want to take a minute and witness Dallin Harris Oaks.

Yeah. And that he is the man right now, and, and he's who we need. Um, and I love him. I th- I would say he is one of the most premier teachers of the plan of salvation in this whole dispensation And anyway, this talk is October 2009, Love and Law. And what got my attention here is over and over he's teaching obedience, and he's helping us to understand...

Ugh, so m- just go read the whole talk. Yeah. Just go pull up the talk. This will be really helpful. I've had many people ask me, how do you reconcile this really mean God in the Old Testament- Mm-hmm ... who seems like he's always hurting the people when they won't do what he says? 'Cause it seems like he should be nice and kind, and, and I, this, I love what you're about to say, Jen.

I'm so glad you read this talk. That was timely that you read it this morning- Well- ... 'cause I didn't prepare you with this question. The reason... Okay, so the reason I read the talk is I love the citation index, and I was curious to see where one of the 2 Kings chapters had been cited by- Mm-hmm ... prophets. And there were only three for the chapter I was looking at, and this was one of them.

Very cool. And, and so President Oaks, just as he opens up, says that m- that, "God's universal and perfect love is shown in all the blessings of His gospel plan, including the fact that His choicest blessings are reserved for those who obey His law." Laws, plural. Sorry. Mm-hmm. And over and over, he's gonna give some case studies and some examples, and he's gonna help us to understand persons who take a position that do not understand the nature of God's love or the purpose of His laws and commandments.

The love of God does not supersede His laws and His commandments, and the effects of God's laws and commandments does not diminish the purpose and effect of His love. The same should be true of parental love and rules, right? So the balance of love and law, and to understand I get to choose. Mm-hmm. It's President Nelson teaching Hesed.

Mm-hmm. And that when I make choices, there are consequences attached. And so when I violate His law, when I'm building groves and worshiping idols and crazy lifestyle, I don't have access to His protection or His blessings. And, and so it really comes down to my desire to be obedient. Um, here's... Can I read another little bit?

Yeah. "Some seem to value God's love because of their hope that His love is so great and so unconditional that it will mercifully excuse them from obeying His laws." In contrast- Mm-hmm. There it is ... those who understand God's plan for his children know that God's laws are invariable, which is another great evidence of his love for his children.

Mercy cannot rob justice, and those who obtain mercy are they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment, and that's quoting Doctrine and Covenants 54:6. And so again, the cause and effect, I think we wanna blame. Mm-hmm. And instead of saying... Like, Suzette, I just love how you were just talking about your experience, and the joy I feel from you, the peace and contentment I feel from you is because of your righteous choices, that you choose to turn, right?

A- and, and that's my observation. But in looking at where we're going, it's the consequence of choices, and we have to be awake to what we're choosing. Yeah. And this idea that when you read the lions verse, you immediately think, "Oh, those poor victims, the poor people that didn't keep the commandments," when really they're not the victims, in my perspective.

It's the Lord that is, because it's not a one-time shot. He had been asking them to keep these rules and commandments for a very long time, saying, "I'll help you, I'll help you," and then he does help them as soon as they turn to him, immediate help, and this time they're not turning to him. And so the reality is is I can't help you.

And so he doesn't. And then if you turn the page, let's go to 2 Kings chapter 18, and we're just gonna look at verse 11, and here's what happens. The king of Assyria... And you wanna highlight 2 Kings chapter 18, just the first line in verse 11. It says, "And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel." There it is.

This is where the scattering of the 10 tribes happens. And the Lord had been preparing them. He had been sending prophets and apostles to them, saying, "Look, just listen. Here's what's gonna happen." And the people were like, "That can't happen. We're too mighty. We're too great." And then it did. So as a result, this is the northern kingdom of Israel.

So now we've got the southern kingdom of Israel, and they're getting the same warnings, and they're saying the same things. "That can't happen. We're too great." But let's find out what happens exactly, and in the next segment, we're gonna see why they needed some really good advice. We'll do that next

Segment 2

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So most of us have experiences that challenge our faith, and Suzette, you shared a beautiful one at the very beginning for sure. Um, Jen, did anything come to your mind of your experience or someone you know that had a story that challenged their faith? I, I, I encounter this a lot, and one of the things...

Like, even just last week talking to a young adult sister, that the challenge, she's saying, "Where are the women?" Mm-hmm. "And where do we fit?" And, um, as I listened to her, I realized so many of those things have been questions I've asked in trying to understand. For whatever reason, and I don't think it's just the church, developmentally, the female role is not as distinct.

Mm-hmm. It's not as delineated. So, so we might have to dig a little bit more or search a little bit more. But one of the things, let me, let me give you this little example that she was bringing up. She goes, "I wish sisters could talk about their problems with other women." Mm-hmm. And I said, "Well, what about the ministering interview?"

And she says, "What's that?" Hmm. And so we I, we open up the handbook and I said, "Let me show you what the ministering interview is intended to be." And I know it's hard when maybe the Relief Society president is only the president over a semester or something that way, but this sister-to-sister communication of being able to share our hearts, you have to have a relationship first, right?

Mm-hmm. But for me, that's been one of my faith journeys. And to be able to say I can see covenant women so clearly and I can see the role. You know, our daughter asked this all growing up, "Where are the young women? How are they acknowledged?" Mm-hmm. And, and I love that she stands at the door and greets people one by one, and hers is the first greeting to enter a holy place for covenant renewal.

She's a covenant preparer. Wow. I watch her stand in fonts- Mm-hmm ... and by proxy help save souls. Yeah. Right? And so we have a powerful role. I don't know, does that make sense? Yeah. But for me, that faith journey of being able to say, "I'm not leaving. My faith is intact. I trust in the Savior, and I'm curious," and it's been so beautiful to have it revealed to me, here is a covenant woman's role- Yeah

side by side with the priesthood and, and in the priesthood with worthy men, both of us functioning in the priesthood- Yeah ... to be able to do God's work. And if I, if I get stuck in that question, I'm paralyzed and scattered. Well, how sweet that young woman was to come to you with that question- Mm ... and be willing to talk about it because every one of us have things that absolutely challenge our faith.

Everyone does. That's part of the whole program, I think, is because we have to have faith. And in this story that we have right here, let's go to 2 Kings, because in 2 Kings 18, we've got this king, King Hezekiah, and he is dealing with some pretty heavy stuff that's challenging his faith. And in, if you read in 2 Kings 18 and you read verses 28 through 37, and then chapter 19, verses 10 through 13, we've got some pretty harsh wording from the enemy.

And so I ask my guests to read this wording and come prepared to share. Like, what were your thoughts? What are some of the taunts, or what are some of the things that made it difficult for Hezekiah as a leader of the people? Well, the main word that stood out to me was just taunts. You know, I mean, it's just the attitude in that, and, um, it just tied directly back to the great and spacious building where their, their, their primary tool is mocking, right?

Oh, yeah. And I just think that if you spend time online... A- and there's actual research that shows that negative things get more clicks, right? It's just spin things negative, and people wanna dive in and pile on and things. And so I think a lot of it, it's easy to dismiss, but there are a lot of negative things about leaders of the church, about doctrines or, or history or whatever it is.

You can find pretty much anything there. And, um, and what I think is, I'm sure all of us have heard things online that, ugh, that hurts, you know? Mm-hmm. Oh, that really got to my heart because they're making light of sacred things, or they're, you know, just basically dismissing your faith. And, um, I think that what's great about Hezekiah, I mean, he's feeling it, right?

Mm-hmm. He's not just like, "Whatever. They don't know." He's like, "What am I gonna do? I rip my clothes. I'm gonna..." You know. But he turns to the prophet, right? Mm-hmm. And he turns to God. And, and just like in the vision of the tree of life, those who heed them are the ones who get in trouble. Those who are able to kind of keep their focus on the tree, on the love of God, on those things, they can withstand.

So I just see that as a little kind of what's happening with Hezekiah here, is he's being taunted. He's being told, "You're nothing. You can't stand against us." And he's holding on to that prophets turning to God, prayer, all those things. Wow. I love how you said negative things get more likes. That really struck me because- this would've been liked by a million.

I mean, there would've been so many likes- Yeah ... to this conversation that the enemy was having with Hezekiah. They would've been like, "Oh, yeah, that's so good how you said that." Like, especially in verse 20. This was the thing that kept, I noticed, was the word deliver over and over again. Mm-hmm. They're like, "You really think your Lord is gonna deliver you?

He can't deliver you." He kept saying that over, and you just can, you hear the likes. "Oh, that's a good one. How's he gonna deliver you?" Because he, you know, it didn't work for the northern tribe. They got taken into captivity. You know, they were warned of course, but they were not gonna put that in here.

We're just gonna put negative. That was so good, Suzette. Very good. Jen, what about you? Anything of the negative taunts that stood out to you? Well, I got, I, I was the same as you. Deliver or delivered was, like, four times in these verses, but also deceive. And so in verse 29, "Let not Hezekiah deceive you," and then in 19:10, "Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee."

And, and you think, again, back to President Oaks, that his first public address was to young adults at BYU, and it was an echo of President Nelson, and he was saying we need the Holy Ghost, and don't be deceived. Now, for me, that's just layering the importance of the message when you have prophets of God repeating messages, right?

Yeah. That what am I doing to safeguard... Like, Suzette, you're right. I, for Lent this year I gave up Instagram. And I've not been back on. And, and I feel a marked difference. For sure. I feel different. I feel different. I'll second that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and I just think... Now, I'm not saying... There's so much good on Instagram, and there are things that I miss th- on Instagram because of what the church puts out, what you put out, what so many people put out, but I feel like I have to be hypervigilant- Mm-hmm

to not be deceived. And- Yeah, I... Suzanne, you teed that up really well, that it's, it's deception and, and that quick slip of my leader is deceiving me and my God is deceiving me. You're all crazy. Yeah. And my leader can't deliver me, and my God can't deliver me, and it's so negative. I... Like, I love how you both internally took this into our own lives.

The application is so visible through all of these taunts and through what we're seeing through social media and the world that we live in and the news. Oh, my gosh. That was so perfect. So as I... A- and this morning I woke up at, like, 6:00 in the morning, and I told my guests this when we started, but I just have to share this story because I woke up and thought, "I need the quote.

I need the quote from President Nelson." And I've been looking for this quote for years, and I have not been able to find it, and I, I'm like, "I have to have it. It's just so good," and I read it. I can't remember where. I... Well, actually, I remember it was in the Liahona, but I don't know which year it was. So I said a prayer this morning.

I'm like, "Heavenly Father, I'm really needing help right now. Guide me to this." And after, like, five or six clicks, I found the Liahona. In April of 2020, there's an article given by our prophet. Now, what I know about articles in the Liahona is you have to write them well in advance. This is not a last-minute submission, and this article from the prophet also is not taken from a p- previous talk.

So this would've been written several months before COVID actually happened, and here's what he said in this talk. So Suzanne, will you read this for us? Okay. And this goes along the lines of these taunts and the world that we live in. "We live in a time of turmoil. Earthquakes and tsunamis wreak devastation.

Governments collapse. Economic stresses are severe. The family is under attack, and divorce rates are rising. We have great cause for concern, but we do not need to let our fears displace our faith. You will have days when you will be discouraged, so pray for courage not to give up. Sadly, some whom you thought were your friends will betray you, and some things will simply seem unfair."

Thank you. Do you think that's so interesting how he said some things seem unfair? Why do you think that's interesting? Just that, are they? Or do we just think they are? Right. That, that I am watching a child, you know, in relationships. He's still young, and it seems unfair. Like even my observation, "You guys, I'm a lousy sports mom 'cause I'm so competitive."

Yelling at the ump and- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I had to go apologize to this little 20-year-old the other day, you know, going- ... "Sorry, I lost it at you." And he's like, "I didn't even hear you, lady. I don't know what you're talking about." And I'm like, "Jesus did." He must've heard me. You should've heard my thoughts. Yeah. But I see, I see what it's developing in my kid.

Mm. And that he is growing. Like, we, we had a friend on Sunday telling us about their missionary and, and Nelson goes, "That sounds like what I'm going through." And I'm like, "Holy smokes, you're being prepared." Mm. So when he says, "Seems unfair," I don't know, that really got me, that- Wow ... seems. Yeah. What do you think?

I hear a lot, "Well, when people decide to leave the church, life's great for them. And here I am keeping covenants and keeping commandments, and I'm struggling." I hear all that a lot. Like, that seems really unfair. You would think everything would work out for covenant keepers, and it doesn't. That seems unfair.

That's what came to my mind. Thank you. So when we're in situations like that, we need advice. Like, what can we do? And I think the people at this time were in a situation where they're like, "We need advice. These people are being so unkind to us. How do we handle that?" It does seem unfair, and so this is such a great discussion because Hezekiah does the right thing.

And so in the next segment, we're gonna find out what Hezekiah does, and then later on in our discussion today, we'll find out what the prophet said to us for some advice. But in the next segment, we get to discover what Hezekiah did, and we'll do that next.

Segment 3

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So we're still in 2 Kings, and we're in chapters 18 and 19, and we're gonna meet King Hezekiah. And you can find his name in chapter 18 verse one. And we're gonna mark some things that this wonderful human did, this h- this King Hezekiah. Now by the way, what we do wanna know is Hezekiah. So w- the- we've talked about this.

The southern kingdom of Judah had a couple of good kings. Northern kingdom, none. All were bad. But the southern, we get a couple of good ones. And we have Hezekiah. This is in 2 Kings chapter 18, and his name is in verse one. There he is. "Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah. He's 25 years old when he began to reign."

And verse three says, "He did that which was right in the sight of the Lord." And highlight verses three through seven 'cause it tells all the wonderful things that he did. In verse five, "He trusted in the Lord." And in verse seven, "The Lord was with him, and he prospered whithersoever he went." And then he gets these tauntings and these people who are unkind, and so chapter 19 is how he responds.

So grab something to mark your scriptures with, and let's mark what he did. First and foremost, will you read for us verse one, Suzette? Yeah. "And it came to pass when King Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes and covered himself with sackcloth and went into the house of the Lord." Okay, where did he go, number one?

To the temple. Very good. What a great- Mm ... response. So things- Mm-hmm ... aren't fair, things, things seem unfair, or the taunts are brutal, yeah, go to the temple. Okay, the second thing he does is verses two through seven. And this is beautifully set up. We're gonna go ahead and look right here. Jen, will you read verse two?

"And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz." So who w- did he send his people to? Go to the prophet. Get there fast. I love it. Go to the prophet. I love that you testified about our prophet, President Oaks, and I'm gonna second that.

I agree completely. He is the right prophet for this right time. So good. And in verse five, highlight that again, "The servants of King Hezekiah came to Isaiah." There he is. Go to the prophet. Okay, then we have verses 14 through 19. Go ahead and highlight those, and here's what he does. And will you please read for us, Suzette, just verse 14 and 15?

Yeah. "And Hezekiah received the letter of, of the hand of the messengers, and read it. And Hezekiah went up into the house of the Lord, and spread it before the Lord. And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said, 'O Lord God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth, and thou hast made heaven and earth.'"

Thank you. In verse 15, now it starts, "Hezekiah prayed." Highlight that. He prayed. So we have, he goes to the temple, he seeks the prophet's counsel, and he prays when things are not good and things are really difficult. I'm curious to know for you two in your life, have any one of those worked for you? Do you have a specific time where you were like, "Oh yeah, that's my go-to"?

Do you have one that's your go-to when times are tough? Well, I, for me, just that image, he spread the letter before the Lord, I just think I could just kind of see that like, "Look, do you see what he just said?" Like, what is going on? And I part- This is not fair. Yeah. Like, partially because I feel like my mind gets scattered sometimes when I'm trying to pray.

This is something I started on my mission and I've kind of come back to. I often write things down that I want to pray for so that I can look at it. And so often for me, praying is, like, I've got my notebook and my pen and I'm praying, and I'm just kind of, like, sharing and laying it before the Lord. So that image really stood out to me.

So I have to make prayer kind of concrete and active so that I don't get lost. My brain, my thoughts don't just kind of disappear. And, and it's so cool 'cause I'll just keep these tablets for a year at, at a time, and I'll sometimes go back through and just highlight some of the things that, wow, that was, that was revelation.

That was him teaching me. Or this big concern I had, it totally got resolved. And so it's not always in the moment, but going back, it's like, wow, I can see all those things and how they played out. And, and same with the temple, of course, as a place of revelation. For me, the temple- often is it's always a feeling of peace, and it's always a feeling of my burden being lifted.

Every time I walk into the celestial room, I feel like, I don't know if you've ever hiked or backpacked, but when you've been carrying a backpack and you finally take it off, you kind of feel like you're floating. And I always feel a burden taken off my shoulders when I enter the celestial room, and I always think, "This is what it's gonna feel like when we get to leave this, where we are right now."

It's gonna be like, you know, all those burdens of mortality, they're lifted, and now you can be in this state of rest. So I always feel that, but there are just really key times where I just feel a flood of revelation, where He just teaches me something, and everything comes together. And, and I did, I mean, I, I can't pinpoint, like, one specific lesson, but I, when I was in the middle of this cancer and, and treatment, there were just moments where I felt like the whole plan just kind of locked into place.

And, and I felt like He was just giving me a glimpse of, like, "Look, this is hard, but it, mortality is just one of the steps, and it, it's all gonna be great." So the temple, I think, for me, it's like you go often as you can, but there are these moments where like, I'm ready to kind of open your mind a little bit and let you act- actually try to comprehend the beauty of this plan, and I just love those moments so much.

But I never really know when they're gonna happen. They just sometimes come. Suzette, can I ask you about your- Yeah ... prayer journaling? Yeah. Um, is it, like, do you find yourself writing throughout the day things you're wanting to pray about? Or is it more, like, do you sit down and write, and then you pray, or both, or what?

It's, it's kind of just, usually I do it after my scripture study, and I'll just, like, list some things that are on my mind, and then I'll pray about them. And then it's just the fact that I keep it and keep going back to it. So I don't, like, go throughout the day and come back to it, but it's more like a month later, looking back at it, that I'm like, "Oh, I can kind of see how this is working," or, "I can see how that insight that came to mind."

So often I'll, I'll see if there's a thought that comes to mind and jot it down. And some of those are just kind of my truth that is helping me through what I'm going through, and I do come back to those, and, um, I just kind of treasure them. Like, this was a, an insight just for me that's now in my heart.

Hmm. I just, I really like that. I, like, I wrote down, I wrote it down to try that, that sometimes prayer feels hard to me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, that, that I, I, I feel scattered, or I, like, "Do I really have time to kneel here?" Or- Anyway, I, I liked that sort of, um, structure or preparation maybe that you offer in that to be able to say, and I l- I love the way you connected it, that here's Hezekiah laying it out and saying, "Here it is."

And so thank you for that. That- Yeah. I wanna try that. Yeah. I w- I wanna try that. Well, let's do this then. In the next segment, Suzette's gonna teach us then about this idea that all things are in the Lord's hands. Because after Hezekiah r- does that and responds that way, then we get a powerful answer. And so I'm excited to hear what Suzette has to teach us about this concept that all things really are in the Lord's hands.

We'll do that next

Segment 4

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All right, Suzette, hit it. Okay. Talk to us about can all folks really work in the Lord's hands? Yes. Prove it. Prove it, yes. So I mean, this section here in chapter 19, verses 20 through 37, we kind of get the response. So he, he's laid it all out before the Lord, um, and then, uh, in verse 20, uh, it says, "Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah saying, 'Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.'"

And, uh, he's like, "Here's what he's gonna do for you." So he's basically, through the prophet... It's interesting how, how close he is with Isaiah because we can kind of think of, like, well, I pray and I receive revelation. But there seems to be, like, I pray and then Isaiah tells me what God wants me to know.

And so, so it's kinda interesting how that, that's working in these verses. But, um, there's, there's sort of two s- well, two or three sections to this where, uh, this is what I have to say to Assyria. This is what God has to say to Assyria. And then he, he repeats what Assyria was saying about God, and then he s- has a message for him.

Like, I don't know who you think you are, but... And then he has a message for Hezekiah. So, so there's kinda little chunks of this. But, but the two main concepts that I wanted to emphasize, one is in verse 25. So this is when God is speaking directly to Assyria. So I don't know if one of you want to read that I want to.

I'll do it for you. Okay. Mm-hmm. "Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? Now, have I brought it to pass that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps?" Right. So he's kind of saying, "Look, I saw this all long ago, and you're saying that you brought it to pass," but he says, "Now I have brought it to pass.

I'm the one who basically has allowed you to continue in your, you know, attacking these different places, and yet I can..." And which he'll show at the end of this, I can, I can reverse this immediately, right? Um, I think that's an interesting statement, because it's God testifying of himself. I have all power, and I have all knowledge, right?

So I am in charge. Now, I think that's actually comforting and a little hard, like what Tammy was saying. Like, why is he sending lions to attack people, right? Um, so it's like, why would God be allowing this horrible kingdom to go and slaughter all these people, right? 'Cause it almost makes it sound like God approves of it, right?

So, so I think there's this fine line between God allowing things or letting them happen, versus God sort of wanting them to happen, right? As we know, God can intervene whenever he needs something specific to happen for the development of his kingdom and his plan. Uh, but lots of bad, bad things have happened in history and have been allowed to happen.

So I, I think... I- I'm having a flashback, Tammy, to when- ... to when we were studying the Missionary Guide. Yeah. And, uh, you know, there, there was a question. It was like, well, why would God let so many bad things happen? It was, like, one of the training questions that we- Yeah ... would, like, practice. And by the way, I have to...

As I was thinking about Tammy, um, one of my favorite things that we used to do when we were doing companion study is we would speak in different accents to- We would. We would ... today we're British, or today... We would just do things to spice it up. We also had kazoos- Uh-huh ... and we would do kazoo stuff, kazoo songs.

So I, I have so many positive memories of serving with Tammy because we worked s- super hard, but we had so- Right ... much fun. We had so much fun. And I think that's ideal when that can happen on a mission. Mm. But anyway, sorry. Oh, for su- and we sang all... Your, I sang more with you than anyone. We sang nonstop- Yeah

all the time. All the time. You did. It was so great. Oh, my gosh, that's so much fun, the memory. But- Yes ... I mean, going back to what you're saying, this idea, like, yeah, why, why does God allow bad things to happen? And, you know, being, being with you, and, and I think what's interesting is, are my first area. Like, I walked off that plane thinking I knew everything, and I was gonna convert all of Fresno, California.

I mean, come on, you know? And the very first discussion I went to, so I f- I fly in, and I am dressed to the nines. Like, it's January. You remember? I had a beautiful white wool coat. And we go, I'm thinking we're gonna, like, go to lunch, and we'll get to know each other, and then we'll take my luggage to the ai- you know, condo where we live, and we'll unpack, and we'll have, you know, a pillow fight.

I don't know. Like, we'll just have a good time together. And we didn't. Yeah, there's Erin. Suzette picked me up in our red Nissan Sentra, and she's like, "Let's go, sister." And she took me to our very, she's like, "We gotta hurry. We have a teaching appointment right now." And I'm like, "Right now? I'm starving." So we go to our first appointment, and it is in a fifth wheel, like a trailer.

Mm. Not, not a trailer mobile home, like a literal camping trailer that sh- hitched, should be hitched up to a truck, but it's not. It's on this piece of land. And we walk in to teach Tammy and all of her little kids- Mm ... who were dirty, and I had to sit on the floor in my white coat. What? And I am just like, my mind was blown at that moment, that I thought, "This is who I'm h- this is what it's about right here."

And everything bad that could've ever happened w- had happened to Tammy in her life. Yeah. And I remember when we committed her to baptism, and I thought, "So much good will come." And, and I, I go back to all of this 'cause, like, the gospel of Jesus Christ has answers, but it doesn't make life perfect, and it didn't get perfect for Tammy.

Life will always be hard for her. Um, but I just... What I love is it got better because of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when I think about our lives, like, we don't always get what we want, but when we lean into the Savior, we get what we need. W- we are able to see with His eyes, like, you've taught us so beautiful.

We, we get to have moments where the Lord's... And I, I wrote it down because you said it. Like, mortality is hard, but it's just one of the steps. And the biggest step of all is coming closer to our Savior, Jesus Christ. And if that's what the experience does for us, then it will have all been for our good.

That's why bad things happen to pe- good people. It's, it's so that we can come to our Savior, Jesus Christ, and love Him. And we got to see that on our mission, investigator after investigator that truly came to the Savior, Jesus Christ. And that's what it's about. And then I mailed my welcome home the next day.

I think, yeah, I think I do. You're like- And the Spirit was like- "I have to get some new clothes," or... "Send it home, you jerk. You were more worried about the coat than you were about Jesus." It's true. I was. No, I think that's so great. And I, I love that phrase in the scripture, like, all things will work together for your, for good for those who trust the Lord, or...

I can't say it correctly. But, um, but even bad things, the Lord can take them. Like, when you've come through a hard thing, it seems like if you stay close to the Lord, you then become a, a minister to those who go through it after you, right? Mm-hmm. And, uh, I've just seen that. Like, with my husband going through divorce and things, it's like he has helped so many people of just like, "Hey, here's how I came through it, and here's how I stayed strong in my faith."

And, and, and it's like people are grateful. So it's like- Yeah ... even though it's something you never wished would have happened, God can turn y- that into a tool. He can turn you into someone who can help others who are going through it. So. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And maybe that answers my question. Yeah. Se- seems unfair- Yeah

from President Nelson. Oh, I like that. That- Yeah ... that as I'm... 'Cause the question, like, the word really got my attention. Mm. But as we're unpacking this and talking about it, that one of the things President Nelson taught us is not to be myopic. Mm-hmm. And when things seem unfair, what am I missing? That perhaps there's this, that I'm siloed right now in the pain, which is very real and very important.

But also, if I can zoom out, it's gonna show me this is part of your exultation. And, and truly this desire that's so deep in me that I want to be like my heavenly parents, I, I really genuinely do, and even when I yell at the ump, you know- ... that I like, I just- Yeah ... my journal entry after, after bask- baseball tournaments is something like, "I'm not as good of a person as I hoped I was."

You know? I just want... So funny. I feel that every day. You know what I mean? Oh. Yes. The other thing I wanted to point out, so he kind of basically kind of puts Assyria in their place. He's like, "And actually, I'm gonna destroy you," um, and basically sends a plague and kills them all in their sleep. And then, um, then, uh- I love how you just say it like that.

Kills them all in their sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Sends a plague. Okay And then, then Sennacherib is actually killed by his sons when he goes home. So I mean, he turns the tables on that really well. But then he also gives these promises to Hezekiah, and he t- he says, "You're going to eat this year such," this verse 29, "such things as grow of themselves.

And in the second year, and in the third year," go into Jennifer's garden, right? You know what? You're gonna be where you are, and you're gonna be able to eat of the fruits of your land. It's not gonna be destroyed, right? But I love verse 30. Um, he says, "And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward," right?

Mm-hmm. And I love that image, because it, there's so much imagery of, of roots and trees and branches in the discussion of the house of Israel, right? And we have, right around this time period, we have Lehi. They eventually are taken to the American hemisphere. And then, um, you have the Mulekites, who later...

So even though he also had a, a remnant that was left there and then came back and tried to restore the temple later, we also have these little offshoots who are like, "I'm gonna go plant these guys over here and see how they do." And, and I just think God is always trying to preserve the covenant people, right?

Mm-hmm. And even if it looks like destruction in one place, he's got little sproots, uh, sprouts coming out over here. So I just think that's a cool verse that tells us I, I, I like how you guys were bringing in what President Nelson talked about, and the thing that I kept thinking about was the scattering of Israel is mentioned so many times in scripture.

It's kind of a hinge point. I was really interested when President Nelson used that term hinge point, um, when he was talking about the, the Rome Temple, right? And brought all of the apostles there, and that beautiful picture of all of them in white. And he said, "This is a hinge point in history." I'm like, "Why?"

I'm like, I was just so curious. I'm like, "Why would you use that word? What, what's so special about this temple?" And that was in 2019, and he just said, "The work of God is going to start accelerating from here." And, and he always had such a clear vision of what preparation for the Second Coming we needed to do.

And, and that just term, that hinge point, stayed with me. I feel like the scattering of Israel was a hinge point, but the gathering, like Jennifer mentioned, is a hinge point, and we're in the middle of it, right? When you think of how many temples there are, how many people it takes to work in a temple, how many people, how easy it is now to take the names of ancestors to the temple.

We're all working as saviors on Mount Zion. We're all working so actively in this gathering, and I think it's beautiful. So I, I just think you kind of, when you're in the middle of it, you think, you don't realize maybe you're in a hinge point, 'cause you're like, "Oh, well, this is just a day to day." But I feel like that was a real important phrase that he used that kind of said, "Hey, we're starting into some really important stuff."

And every little thing that every single one of us does is part of that gathering. Mm. And one thing that I, I don't know why, I just think it's cool whenever I print off a family name. I'm like, "Oh, who did the other stuff, and what temple was that at?" Mm. "And when did they do it?" And then it's like we're all this team working for the salvation of this individual, and I just think it's beautiful.

Because sometimes it's like temples all over the world, and- Mm ... then us here. So that, that's just the direction I took that verse in verse 30, so. Well, I love what you got out of those verses. Thank you. Of course you're an English teacher. You see things I would never have seen, and I'm marking all of this in my scriptures because those words were so important for Hezekiah and the people when the Lord's like, "I'm gonna defend Jerusalem against the Assyrian army.

I'm gonna protect you." And I love the direction you took and everything you taught us, so thank you so much, Suzette. Thanks. Okay, so here's what's happening then. Then you go into chapter 20, which we've already kind of talked about with Hezekiah, and then Hezekiah dies. He does eventually pass away, and his naughty son, turn to 2 Kings chapter 21 and mark his name, Manasseh becomes king, and he's the worst of all.

He's the worst of the worst. So just put that. I even put that in my scriptures. The worst of all the kings is Manasseh. And you can read through chapter 21 and read all the terrible things that he did, including child sacrifice. He's the worst. And then he's gonna die. And then his son Ammon becomes king, or Ammon, if- however you want to say it.

And then he dies, and then his son Josiah becomes king. Let's mark Josiah's name. It's in 2 Kings chapter 22, verse 1. There it is. And he's eight years old when he began to reign. How's that for a leader? Eight years. Okay. Then we get into verse 2. Will you read verse 2 for us, Jen? "And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord and walked in all the way of David his father and turned not aside to the right hand or to the left."

So in the next segment we're gonna find out what Josiah did that was so good.

Segment 5

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So now our new leader is Josiah, and he is so good. We love him so much. And there's something very interesting about the wording in verse 2. Jennifer, I want you to teach it to us really quickly. Well, he walked in all the ways of David, his father, but that's not his birth father's name. Right. And I think that sometimes in family life, when it's rough, right, we decide that's who we are.

And have you ever met... It seems like you'll meet someone and they'll, they'll say, "Oh, I'm the first baptized member." And then they do their family history, and they're like, "I'm not the first baptized member." Right? And there was someone way back when, but that he went to a covenant father- Mm ... and connect a covenant repentant father.

Oh, I like that. Um, right? Because David had his story, and, um, and it's really gonna be the baseline for him to make reform. And, and the way King... Was it President Kimball that said it's the finest story in all of scripture? Yes. That's in Come, Follow Me, this, in the manual. And it is such a good story because of what King Josiah does.

He is so powerful that this king, it's known as Josiah's Reforms. It's important to know. I remember learning that phrase, going, "Josiah's what?" So a lot of scholars use this, and it's really important to understand. Here are five really important things that Josiah did throughout II Kings chapters 22, 23, and also in II Chronicles, and I'm just gonna number them for you so you can be aware of them.

He restored the temple, and so that happens right here in II Kings chapter 22. He actually says, "Okay, let's go up," in verse 4. Go up the high priest, and he's gonna take money, and they're gonna re- do a temple reconstruction in verses 3 through 7. He then destroys all the idolatrous images in the high places, cuts them down.

We're done worshiping false idols. He puts down the idolatrous priests. He releases all of them and brings in guys who are gonna do the right thing. He celebrates this great Passover. He brings that back, that tradition that's found ba- in the Book of Leviticus. And then in verse 8 of chapter 22, they find this thing called the Book of the Law.

Highlight that. The Book of the Law in that verse is the scriptures, and so he brings the scriptures to light, and he brings them to light by a woman named Huldah. We love her name. Go to verse 14. Highlight that name. Highlight Huldah, the prophetess. Oh, how much do we love her? Yeah. And I love, going back to your question, Jen, that young student who said, "Where are the women?"

I just think we gotta start teaching stories about women in scripture because here's a group of men that didn't even debate. They went straight to Huldah, the prophetess, and said, "What is this book?" Mm. Isn't that awesome? What did you think when you saw that? You know who I thought of? President Camille Johnson.

Yes. And, and I thought, I, I can just imagine that... I, I mean, if I had a chance, I would go say, "Yeah, give me some advice of this. How did you navigate that?" But that she's such a godly woman who leads the Relief Society organization. Mm-hmm. And she's trusted and... but also that we have ward Relief Society presidents, or guess what?

You don't have to be the president of anything, right? Just be a godly woman that people seek out to receive clear discernment from. Is that the way to say that? Yes. Clear guidance that will help me to follow God. Yes, absolutely. Well, and one of the cool things about this storyline is, again, we have the people who need advice.

They're in a pickle because they just had s- a really bad king. And so the advice is, "Do what's right. Read the scriptures. Let's get the temple built up. Let's stop doing bad things and false things." And so Huldah will then tell them, "Okay, you've put the, put the scriptures off for a while, so you're gonna need to start reading them."

And she teaches them how to do that. And so this thing known as Josiah's reforms really had me thinking, because I thought when I went out on a walk after studying this, I feel like every prophet has his own reforms. Like, I think there are President Nelson reforms- Definitely ... where he says, "Okay, everybody."

Like, every prophet has their thing they think about. And going back to that article that I found w- that we used at the very beginning where they said, "We live in turbulent times, and you might not be very well liked if you stay in the church," kind of, that's the impression I got. In that same talk, here are some of his reforms and some of the advice that he gives to us.

And Susette and Jennifer and I will each read a paragraph. And I just took some highlights, but I highly recommend going and reading the whole talk. But here are some really cool things that President Nelson said for us to do. "How you deal with life's trials is part of the development of your faith.

Strength comes from when you remember that you have a divine nature and inheritance of infinite worth." We've already talked about that one. That's so cool. "The time is coming when those who do not obey the Lord will be separated from those who do. See Doctrine and Covenants, section 86, verses one through seven.

Our safest insurance is to continue to be worthy of admission to his holy house." Another one. "Do whatever it takes to strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ by increasing your understanding of the doctrine taught in his restored church and by relentlessly seeking truth. Anchored in pure doctrine, you will be able to step forward with faith and dogged persistence and cheerfully do all that lies in your power to fulfill the purposes of the Lord."

"I promise you that as you follow Jesus Christ, you will find sustained peace and true joy as you keep your covenants with increasing precision and as you defend the church and kingdom of God on the earth today. The Lord will bless you with strength and wisdom to accomplish what only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can accomplish."

Now, what other reforms would you add that our prophet has taught us? Here's something that I've been, I've thought about through his whole administration, that in the conference prior to him being called, he reported on his study of the Book of Mormon. This would have been the fall of 2017. The study of the Book of Mormon that President Monson had invited us to enter into.

And he said, "Here's the impact," okay? And then January 2018, he is the president of the church, and the solemn assembly happened in April. Now, something that got my attention was that most of what then followed could be traced to 3 Nephi. Hmm. And so for me, the observation was, I, one, I trust him. He follows the prophet, okay?

And in following the prophet, the Book of Mormon then shaped it, and then what we learned was that immediately we get ministering, which go look in 3 Nephi about what's taught about ministering. We get the correct name of the church, which is also in 3 Nephi, and the promise when you use the Savior's name appropriately to identify his church, right, ministering in this higher and holier way, one by one- Oh, wow

in your relational way, right? And then on and on and on, I just started tracking this and saying, "Yep, it's in 3 Nephi. Yep, it's in 3 Nephi." So here's President Nelson reporting on his obedience to President Monson's invitation, and this is from that talk that came October of 2017 in general conference, and quote, "Since President Monson's challenge six months ago, I have tried to follow his counsel.

Among other things, I've made lists of what the Book of Mormon is, what it affirms, what it refutes, what it fulfills, what it clarifies, and what it reveals. Looking at the Book of Mormon through these lenses has been an insightful and inspiring exercise. I recommend it to each of you." End quote. And I really feel, I can't, I mean, one day when I meet him, I'm gonna ask him this question Is this how you knew what to do?

Mm. Is this how you knew what to do through your ministry to all of us who felt that he was our grandfather a- and our best friend, but more importantly, our, our prophet? And that what followed then was this clarity. And I- it's just profound to me that the Book of Mormon was such a guide. Can you, in your mind, picture him in his sweater on the porch?

Yeah. Right? All because he followed the prophet. All because he followed the prophet. 'Cause he did what his prophet told him to do. That's right. It makes me think of the challenge he gave to the youth of the church, the young single adults, I should say, to study the Savior and use the topical guide as their book.

Yeah. I've started to do that. I'm not gonna do it as fast as he did, I'll tell you right now, 'cause he said he did it in six weeks. Spoiler alert, it's taking me a lot longer. But I have loved reading and using the topical guide and reading each week all of the scriptures I can on that one topic. It's changed the way I...

It's changed my relationship with the Savior. Like, I'm so thankful for that reform in my life, to really get to know Jesus Christ Well, and I wanna add to that. One, one thing that I think was really powerful was the changes in the endowment ceremony. I remember going through the temple and just imagining each of our kids going through, and there were just...

I was just like, "Are they gonna see it? Are they gonna understand?" I was worried. Mm-hmm. And when they made... And you know, they've made many changes, and I love that whole idea that this is a continuing restoration. This is a continuing- Yeah ... there will always be changes. I thought that was amazing. But the way they make it so crystal clear how Christ is at the center of the endowment, which when we first went through- Mm-hmm

of course, yes, it's there, but you have to connect- Mm-hmm ... a lot of the dots yourself. And I just felt like, wow, this is to make that first time through the temple just so clear that this is about the Savior. So that's one change that I found just so powerful. So powerful. What a great reform. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've loved viewing this.

When we talk about Josiah's reforms and then modern-day prophets' reforms, how awesome that it's consistent. He- they did it in Old Testament time. We're still doing reforms today. Thank, and thank goodness. Mm-hmm. Love that. Mm-hmm. In fact, that's gonna be my question for everybody on social media: what's one of the favorite things you were taught by our prophet?

What's one of the favorite things that you have learned from President Nelson? Because now we have President Oaks, and it's gonna be fun to see the things that he re- you know, reforms and helps us in the world we're living in today because we are living in a world full of taunts and full of negative content that a lot of people like, so we need these reforms.

So here's what we're gonna do then. In the last segment, we're gonna talk about one of the most important reforms and one that I think is such great advice that we can all lean into when it comes to life seeming not fair, and Jennifer is going to teach us that next.

Segment 6

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So I asked Jennifer to talk about this because I love this topic and I know she does. It's probably the thing I would think, Jen, you get asked the most to speak about. Like at women's conferences, it's like your thing. And so I thought, "I gotta let it be her thing on this episode." So I'm just gonna- not even gonna introduce what it is.

I'm gonna turn it all over to you. What's the reform or what do we need in our lives? We need covenants. Right? We need covenants. Why? Is that what you said? Yeah. Well, it's entrance back into his presence. It's the, it's that special kind of love, um, we've been talking a lot about President Nelson, but it's that special kind of love that connects us to him, but also endows us with power, which is the priesthood, that places us in a position to do his work.

And I think that's one of the greatest joys of living a covenant life is once we enter into a covenant, it's no longer about me. Hmm. It's me saying, "What's the blessing I can be to others?" I was asking my children this question the other day that... I, I don't even remember what the context was, but it was, we were talking a little bit about sharing the gospel and what do they have that they just, when they have it, they just wish they could give it to everyone.

And for our, our daughter, it was Sour Patch watermelon candies- ... that everyone should love and enjoy these and have these. And for our son, it was playing baseball. You know? Or I, I don't remember what it was, but how do you share it then and how does it consume you? And how do we get to the place where a relationship with our heavenly Father is that consuming?

Hmm. What's happening here in chapter 23, and I have a invitation that I just want us to all consider, is what do I need to cut out of my life? Sister Johnson, President Johnson had a similar invitation to us, that what needs to get cut out of our lives so that I can be more connected with, with the Godhead, with my heavenly Father and the Savior through the Holy Ghost.

And I invite the Holy Ghost right now to be with us individually, that it will be clear and, and simple. Not simple in that it'll be easy, but that it'll be simple to identify, um, and clear to identify. And so in 2 Kings 23, Josiah is reading the book of the covenant and saying, "What do we need to do?" It's like President Nelson reading the Book of Mormon and saying, "What do we need to do?"

So let's look. Let's, as he's reading, will one of you read for us verse three? And let's just unpack verse three for a minute. Chapter 23. I can read. "And the king stood by a pillar and made a covenant before the Lord to walk after the Lord and to keep his commandments and his testimonies and his statutes with all their heart and all their soul, to perform the words of this covenant that were written in this book.

And all the people stood to the covenant." There's a couple things that I hope- Oh- ... you'll look at. There's so many things in that verse. There's so many things. What got your attention? You're so excited. I mean, it's so, I, I mean, I'm marking all these words like walk, keep, and then with all their hearts, and then of course I love the line, "The people, all the people stood to the covenant."

Stood. That gets me. What does that mean? I wanna know what that means, Suzette. Stood to the covenant, English teacher. Or is that, I don't know. Instead of stood in it, like stood to the covenant? Mm. Wow. Everything you said was an action. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like that. Everything you just identified was an action, and again, agency is the heart of this.

It's the, it's the cog that moves the wheel. That if I'm not actively choosing, then I'm being acted upon from 2 Nephi 2, right? What's the difference in your mind between a covenant and a contract? Like if I signed a contract to live somewhere, or what else would I sign a contract? Is there a difference?

Well, a covenant, I mean, it's obviously two-way promise. It, to me, has more spiritual overtones. A contract is, uh, it sounds more like it's a term we use often in daily life, and it, it's like, "Oh, how can I get out of this contract?" Or, you know, you try to think of little loopholes and things like that. Oh, that's good.

A covenant just feels like it's more from your heart, but that's probably just 'cause I've always heard it in spiritual terms, but ... I do think there's a difference f- based on what you're saying, right? The, the contract is the world and the covenant is God. Mm. And, uh, he's gonna say, "I'm gonna apply my power to this, and I'm, I'm gonna bless you and place you in relation to me to give you an opportunity to grow in relation to me."

Where the contract is law that binds, the covenant brings in the love. Mm, mm. Where now we have a relationship, and I think in my life, I feel like I'm constantly learning this, that it is relationship and it's connection, and it's my desire to have that connection. As I was studying this, as I was thinking about this, I was thinking about the covenants that I've made, and I recently taught this in a BYU Idaho devotional in January, where when one part of a covenant feels difficult, go back to its origin.

And so for instance, in the house of the Lord, and you know, you're talking about how it's changed, Suzette, that, that I remember it for years. I can't talk about this, and now so much of it's published, and we can read it in the handbook or on the church's website. So first in the house of the Lord when we are washed and anointed, we are initiated to become kings and queens, and as we're studying these kings and as we're saying Manasseh is the worst of the worst, that's not what we're anointed to be.

No. Um, but to know I can be like the King of Kings, and that's the first, but then to know we enter into laws: the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration. And you'll see that in this covenant that they're entering into, it's to be with all their heart and all their soul.

So there's consecration, right? But it's initiated to walk after the Lord and to keep his commandments. It started with obedience. So when being all in feels hard, go back to obedience. And say, "What do I need to be more obedient in? What do I need to work at to, to just be obedient? Is it the Sabi- Sabbath day?"

And that then becomes a sacrifice, right, that helps me to live the law of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to love God and to love others. And then I'm more likely to be chaste, and then I can be all in. It's a progression. Mm. And so if the all in is hard, go backward and try and start again. What are you thinking?

I'm watching your face. I just had this moment because I went to verse three, and I looked up i- in Hebrew the word made, 'cause I was like, "I wonder if this is the same word that's used when Abraham makes a covenant back in Genesis." And in Hebrew it's not made a covenant, it's specific. It's cut- Cut ... a covenant.

Mm. Literally cut. Like, they would cut these animals in half and split them apart. And it's such a wonderful thing to teach, 'cause I one time taught this and I brought bread. And when you cut a piece of bread, it's a done deal. Like, you can't put the piece back on. Like, you can't put it all back into whole.

So once you cut a covenant, it's so legally binding. But I love this concept where you talked about how a covenant, with a covenant, there's this connection to hesed, or love, but not a contract. 'Cause, Suzette, when you said when you enter a contract you're like, "How can I get out of it?" Yeah. I mean, how many times have we said that in college with our- Yeah

contracts for our apartments? "I gotta get out of this contract," right? Yeah. There's no love base on a contract. You really only ... When you sign that contract, there's still this level of like, "Yeah, but I'm gonna do what's right for me." But not a covenant. Like, when you cut a covenant, it's so binding that it's a done deal, that God's like, "I, I can't go back.

I won't go back on my word." Yeah. "I can't put that piece of bread back on. Mm. So no matter what happens, I will always fulfill my end of it." Yeah. Well, it just reminds me of one of our kids had just moved into an apartment and found out it was infested with cockroaches, right? But they had signed a contract, so it was just these daily calls, just tears.

"It's awful. I can't stand it. I, I think we're gonna try to get out of the contract." And I was like, "Okay, you're probably gonna get charged lots of fees," but, you know, they just felt like they couldn't live there. And then, you know, they did get out of the contract, but in the meantime, she said something to us.

She's like, "You know what? I prayed for the first time in two years." You know? Mm. And it just made me think, you know, that covenant that she made as a little girl- Mm-hmm ... that hasn't really been active in her life, um, all this time I've just been praying, you know, just please let God back in your life. He wants to bless you.

Yeah. And it was just, I don't know, that contrast of contract and covenant where she did get out of the contract. She got into a nicer apartment. But the covenant, you know, the, the struggles and the frustration she was going through, she was like, "I gotta talk to God. I can't do this." You know? And it just was just this joyous thing to us, 'cause we're like, oh, she remembered, you know, that she still has that connection, and it just was illustrating this very concept Oh, that's beautiful

it perfectly did. That right there, that is covenant. Yeah. That is why- Yeah, yeah ... we need that reform If he may not be ready to be all in- Wow ... he obeyed that one principle, right? And God was there. He's like, "I'm with you the whole time." And God was there. You bet. Yep. I'll uphold it. Yeah. You turn, you turn to me.

She turned her face to the wall and prayed to the Lord. That's exactly it, right. Yeah. Like, "I'm here. Let's do this." That's why we need covenants. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. Oh, I love that. And I'm thinking, Tammy, about they stood to the covenant, right? Mm-hmm. All the people stood to the covenant. Uh, for sure this is showing us it's a formal, it's...

And in fact, some have suggested, like, to connect it to Joshua 8:30-35, where it's a formal covenant renewal of a ceremony to be able to enter into. But this is a fun verse to go in. Maybe you've talked about Parallel+. Have you talked about that app, Parallel+? No. Tell us. Okay. There's a really fun app called Parallel+.

It's free, and as we're trying to use different translations of the Bible, you can set them all side by side- Perfect ... and look at them and see each translation, right? Mm-hmm. And so you could say, oh, here's the NIV, here's the ESV, here's the KJV, and how did they translate differently. And so for instance, the NIV says, "Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant."

Mm. Um, the ESV says, "And all the people joined in the covenant." The New Living Translation says, "Then all the people pledged themselves to the covenant." And then we know the King James, "And all the people stood to the covenant." Um, again, just kind of a fun place to be able to nuance and to say, I'm trying to understand what's happening here.

But the more important thing is what follows, that when the covenant's made, Josiah says, "Now we have to eliminate- Mm-hmm ... and these things need to go away." And so I kept going, what is a high place and what is a grove and, and what is going on? And candidly, it's the world. The high places are the idolatry worship, and the grove, the footnote for 6a is Asherah, a fertility goddess.

So they're over-sexualized. Yeah. And it's a world that we're living in, and there's prostitution and male and female that's been going on. And he's saying, "We've got to get the allure of the world out of our lives." And that's where I think we've got to start cutting- Mm-hmm ... and to say, where's that tug that's keeping me from the all in?

Because oh, you guys, I had a student last semester say in front of the whole class, "My husband and I are sealed in the temple. We've got it made." And we, uh, uh, and we're just assured that things are gonna be okay for us. And I looked at her and I said, "Tell, tell me a little bit more- About- Tell me, please

and she was really offended that I had called her out on this. And, and thinking about, you know, that sometimes we get this mindset of, "Oh, I'm fine. I've made my covenant," but not this realization that the, all their hearts and all their souls- Mm-hmm ... has to be in place. And so it means we have to break down the images.

We have to bring down false priests. We have to be brought out of groves. We have to put down idolatrous priests and actively say, "The world can't be in me." It can't be part of who I am. And as comfortable as that is or as much as I enjoy that, it can't be who I am. Um, even I just love that quote that you said with President Nelson about...

I wrote it down. It's something about friends. Oh, yeah. "Sadly, some whom you thought were your friends will betray you." Yeah. And so there's loneliness in this. Yeah. And, and to know that sometimes, I mean, I think about the Nephites and their wars, and the Nephites destroyed the Nephites. It was internal.

Mm-hmm. And so to be able to see things for what they are. This was illustrated so beautifully in the April 2026 general conference with Elder Mutombo. Mm. To see... I want to just read a little bit from his experience. Do you remember the story where he and his wife he explains they have all these children and people said...

I love how they said, "How? How can this be?" And he says, "This is simply how it is." Yeah. Sorry about having 10 children. Yeah. This is simply how it is. But he explains that they have a little boy named Alan, and Alan died, and that the family and the tradition said, "You now have to separate from each other.

You must not be able to produce offspring, and so you two have to separate from each other." And, and that he went in and he, he prayed, prayed and then walked out, came out with empty hands and told the people who were there, "I'm sorry, but Natalie is my eternal companion. We're striving together to build an eternal family, and the Savior is helping us achieve it.

They opposed my decision, but exercising my faith in Jesus Christ made me stronger." Then he quotes President Oaks, "Following Christ is not a casual or occasional practice. It's a continuous commitment and way of life that should guide us at all times and in all places. His teachings and his example define the path for every disciple of Jesus Christ."

And then they talk about the miracles that followed and how they were able to stay together and serve and build the kingdom. But are we committed to a lifestyle change? Hmm. That covenant living says then you have to be different, and are you committed to that difference? And so a couple of the questions that I've been thinking about in this is what do, what do I expect?

What is my expectation of a covenant? And do I expect that that means it's smooth sailing and life is really easy? And am I open to the growth that's before us and the relationships that are a possibility How have covenants changed you? And what evidence do others have that you are a covenant liver? Um, and I, I would just pose those questions for reflection.

Yeah. But what Josiah's doing is saying, because we have the scriptures, we have to elevate higher and holier living, and it's bound through covenant, which then says strip out the world and live differently. And then watch the hand of God working in your life Amen. Jen, thank you. I wrote so many notes down.

If you're in your scriptures in II Kings 23, just make sure you label that chapter Josiah's Reforms, which we've talked about, but here's where it is so you can read about them. And ladies, thank you for this incredible discussion of II Kings. So much good advice for our day. Wow. Thank you, thank you. We're done.

That's the end. Ta-da. Okay, so just gather your thoughts and tell me what eternal truth did you learn from our discussion today? What is your takeaway? And when you have it, just go ahead and say it. Yeah. I wrote down a few notes, but I, I was really struck by pointing out how President Nelson's reforms really are reflected in III Nephi.

I never h- never even thought of that. But, but it also, what comes after III Nephi? It's IV Nephi, right? It's this period of par- paradise kind of. And- Mm ... I feel like that's what we're working toward. We're working toward the preparation for the Second Coming, and the millennium, and all the work that will be done then.

And so it all just makes sense. Like, if this is the period of time in the Book of Mormon that reflects the period of time we're in, that's just beautiful. Oh. So I really appreciated that connection. Cool connection to IV Nephi. I love that. Oh, I love how you- Yeah, totally ... thought that through. Very cool.

Yeah, totally. I, I'm thinking about the taunts. I know that's a funny place to land, but the deliverance and the deception, I... And I connected it, Suzette, with what you taught me about prayer, that, that I just, I think I, in some ways that I can be deceived about the way to go about prayer, or justified in some different things that way, and that He wants to deliver me, but I wanna do my part to be a little more prepared.

And so thank you for just that little nudge, and I think I might even take notes throughout the day of things that catch my attention of, "I think I wanna talk to my Heavenly Father about this. I need some help." And so follow up with me, sis, and- Okay. ... and ask me, "How's your notes doing? How is your preparation for, for prayer going?"

But that's something- Yeah ... kinda specific that I wanna try that you've inspired me to think about. Thank you. Brilliant. That was beautiful. Thank you. Uh, mine is, Jen, when you said, and I don't even know if you knew you said this, but it hit me with a, like a ton of bricks. When you were talking about the prophet and you said, "I trust him.

He follows the prophet." And I loved that. 'Cause you just are such a great witness of prophets. You always have been. And when you said it, I'm like, "She really believes that." And I thought that was so cool. Like, I trust this prophet because he follows the prophet. So it was very cool. And then Suzette, when you said mortality is hard, but it's just one of the stops, that was very profound, and I appreciate that so much for saying that, 'cause it's a great...

It's just a great reminder to all of us, 'cause we put so much on this, and we forget that there's... It's just one of the stops, so everyone breathe. Do your best. It's gonna be okay. So thank you. Thank you, ladies. Boy, I love you both. Oh, I'm proud of you, Tammy. Love you too. Look at this ministry you have.

Mm-hmm. Uh, you're- Ah. You're amazing I can't believe, I can't believe I get to do it, but I really can't believe I get to have friends join me. So. That's so fun. It's such a great- Cool ... setup. Thank you, thank you. Thanks for asking. That was a great experience. It's really fun. It was really cool. You do such...

You make it so easy. Oh. Yeah. Well, thank you. Definitely. Oh, my gosh, that episode was so good. Boy, I love those women. I mean, Suzette and I could just sit and talk for hours about our mission, because it was the best three months together. She was such a good trainer. I loved it. I loved it. Okay, if you haven't joined our group on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, go and do that, because then we're going to ask a question, and we want you to answer it from our discussion.

And I wanna know, what did you learn from President Nelson? What is a reform that you appreciate? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday, and go there anyway.

It's where we're gonna have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and our incredible study group participants were Jennifer Brinkerhoff-Platt and Suzette Gee Kunz.

And you can find more information about my dear friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember that you really are God's favorite.