The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

===

[00:00:00]

Segment 1

---

President Nelson said this awesome quote. It is difficult for mortal minds to comprehend the majesty of the creation. It is much easier for us to think about good things to eat, or fun things to do, but I would like to stretch our minds to think of things beyond our easy grasp. The creation of man and woman was wondrous and great.

So is the creation of the earth and their mortal dwelling place. So this week is all about the creation and the discussion with my guest today. You guys will for sure be stretching some minds. Welcome to the Sunday, on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into our scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come Follow Me study. Just like my longtime listening friend, Amanda Skinner and Rosemary Curtis from Eagle Mountain, Utah.

Hi ladies. Now a really awesome thing about our study group and my favorite thing is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different each week. And today we have my two dear friends, Melinda Will White Brown, and Maria Eckersley. Hello ladies. Hello. So good to be dear.

Hello. Um, okay, Maria and Mindy, she go her, her stage name's Melinda, but that's right, we're gonna call her the rest of this, we call her Mindy. So that's why if you hear like who's Mindy? Yes, it's you. Okay For everyone listening, if you don't know who these two women are, you're gonna want to, because they are authors, they are forces for good in this universe.

And I just adore them so much. And so Mindy has two books and she, the first one I ever read before we really got to be close is your book on Eve. And it is Eve and Adam. Yeah. Discovering the Beautiful Balance. And then you have a Tempo book. Tell us about that. It's called an Endowment of Love, uh, embracing Christ's covenant way of Living and Loving.

And that came out last April. Um, and it's just, it's kind of bringing fresh eyes to our temple experience, particularly on how to bring it out the door of the temple with us, how it can change every relationship every single day. So that's kind of what it's about, focused on the five key covenants of the, of the endowment.

So. Well, and I think Maria's word, she used to describe it. Well, we, before we hit record, was phenomenal and I would agree. Phenomenal. Well, and it's so approachable. I just feel like, thank you. You know, it's not a gargantuan book. It's something that I could actually, it it wasn't, yeah, it's pretty small. It wasn like the exact amount you would gift to somebody, you know?

It's something that, I don't know, I feel like anyone could digest and still feel like you come away with a lot more depth in your understanding. I loved it. It was beautiful. Oh, thank you. And I felt that way too. I was like, oh, this would be the perfect book to give someone who's about to go to the temple.

And then I realized it's the perfect gift for anyone who's been to the temple. Right. Like it is a read for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So it was great. I hope so. Thank you. And then we're excited. Mindy and I are so excited to announce Maria has a book. Yes. Because. [00:03:00] Oh, I mean, how Mindy, how long have we been begging her?

Yes. Yes. I know. I should, I should give you credit. Actually, both of you have encouraged me to write in the past, so thank you for that. Maria, tell us about your book. 'cause this is so fun. I can't wait. Oh, you guys, I'm so eager for this to be in the hands of. Women of the church, the, it's just called teaching Easter, and it's really just 15 lessons.

So I've taken Easter and I've broken it into 15 lessons that are really centered on the atonement of Jesus Christ. And my goal here is that you'll not just study the atonement, but that you'll find ways to delight in teaching it. So it's kind of a hybrid of those two things. It, it gives you just enough that you can study things in a little more depth.

And then also tools that you could teach it in a family setting. You could teach it in a church setting, in a young women's group, like you could, you could do some phenomenal things with the activities that are sort of built right into it. So that's my goal is to give you, I, I, I wanted to, we often rely on the, the biblical accounts when we go to Easter, right?

We study Holy week and we think about the things he did. I really wanted to take Restoration Scripture and weave it in. So each chapter takes a lot of what you learn from the Bible and then also what you learn from the doctrine covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and you know, other places, the Book of Mormons all over that book.

So that was my goal. Well, and Maria keeps, Maria keeps saying, teach fabulous. Teach teach. Fabulous. Let, let's be clear. Mindy, how would you describe Maria's teaching style? Um, completely fun and interactive. Yes. Um, it's daunting to me because it, like, I mean, it's science experiments, right? All these amazing things, but, but like, you're one of those people that my kids would say, oh, she would be a really fun mom.

You're, you're totally right. 100%. Yeah. I'm trying. Some people say Teach the atonement. It will be interactive and gauging. Yeah. Your students will say, I never considered this before. Like, they just come away with a new understanding. So yes, I hope so. What's name of the book? Hope Teaching Easter. Teaching Easter.

K. Yes. That is so exciting. Easter experiences, and you will love it. I, I, trust me, you will love the experiences that come out of it. And Tammy, can we not applaud your group book Also All. Yay. It's so fabulous. I mean, really. Thank you. Applaud. It's. So great and also so digestible. Just really awesome. Just little Hebrew word a week.

There you go. Yeah, it was, it was really fun to write. Write my stories. I don't know. Yeah, I, it's overwhelming. I can't even believe. Delightful. Sometimes I just wanna go hide. Then do you ever feel like that you just wanna hide under a rock and you're like, I'm done. Don't, don't, don't anyone find me or talk to me or correct me.

Just need a little break sometimes rest. We're gonna talk about rest, right? There's seminar, right? Yeah. The importance of rest. Oh, this is gonna be so fun. Okay, well listen. For those of you listening, if you wanna see what my guests look like, for those of you who are new, we always have their bios with their pictures.

'cause I have to see, I need to see who I'm listening to. So you can find their bios in our show notes, which are at lds living.com/sunday on Monday. So grab your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with. And we are going to dig into Genesis [00:06:00] chapters one through two, Moses, chapters two through three, and Abraham chapters four through five.

I know that's a lot. But we're gonna do it. Okay. Before we get started, here's our first question. Tell me what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were studying for this episode today? I can tell you one thing that jumped out at me as I was studying it. I'm in Abraham, and this is in Abraham three. It's verse 25, and you, it'll sound really familiar, elder Bednar, and give a whole talk about this.

But it says, and we will prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whatsoever. The Lord their God shall command them. And I really love the word prove. I think we tend to think of it like a, a test or an exam of some kind. But I'm a bread maker and so I love to think of proofing yeast. You know, this idea of like, I'm gonna take yeast and I anticipate that that yeast is going to fluff up when I put it in the, the water that's the right temperature.

And I assume that because I've taken care of that yeast, you know, I've given it the environment it needs. I've given it the, the exact right temperature of water that it needs and the sugar that it needs so that it can thrive. And for some reason, when I was thinking about that verse when it comes to the creation story, the Holy Ghost just sort of planted that like, I really think heavenly Father anticipates that we will succeed the same way I anticipate that yeast will fluff up and make the bread I need.

'cause he gave us all these circumstances so that we of course could succeed. You know, he's taking care of us, he's given us the right temperature, he is, set us in the right circumstances so that we can thrive. And that just felt so optimistic to me, rather than like, here's a test and you might make it and you might not.

Instead it was like, oh no, you're set up to succeed. Just. Follow the plan. Oh, I love that. Because then I think, and if the proofing does right, if it does well, it's gonna end up being something wonderful and delicious. Same. And I think that, because guess what, I'm not a baker. And whenever I try to bake anything with yeast, immediately my brain goes, it's not gonna work.

It's not gonna work. I'm gonna have to do another, I always have to do two proofings 'cause it doesn't work. So I love your faith that, you know, it's going to work and it's gonna be wonderful. So come on over Tammy. I will, we will do this together. Can you please we'll increase your confidence, I promise I'm gonna hold you to that.

Like, I'm not even kidding. I'm in, I wish I was. I can't bake, so, okay. Excellent. What about you, Mindy? That's awesome. Um, well I was really struck again because I've spent a lot of time in these chapters with Genesis two 18 and, and this is mimicked in all three versions that we're studying today. But, um, looking at, as we lead up.

To Genesis two 18, the word good that we get over and over and over again. And it was good. And it was good, and it was good. And I just have to insert here, just a little plug about appreciating the poetry that the Old Testament is really trying to express itself through, right? And the repetition of that is clearly intentional.

It's a literary device that's meant to get our attention and to give us a rhythm to [00:09:00] it that we're hearing like, like artistry, right? And so when we get to the point in Genesis two 18 that God actually says something is not good, it should shock us, it should just make us stop immediately and really look at what is not good and aloneness, it's being alone is not good.

And that is so significant, I think. Um. We all know, you know, the last five, six years. Has been a strange cultural societal movement towards isolation and aloneness, and the repercussions have been very harmful. It's, it's so tragic. It's so crucial that we look around us and we look up as we go through this creation story.

It immediately puts relationships at the forefront, relationships between, uh, us and the earth, between us and God, and between us and each other. And one of the things that I also just really love about this is when you think about just the prevalent. Familiarity with this story? Absolutely. Anyone you stopped on the street and asked if they could tell you a little bit about the creation and Adam and Eve, you would immediately get a quick, concise telling of the basics.

Um, regardless of faith, tradition or background or anything, it's just such a prevalent origin story and a well-known one. And for every single one of those, those brothers and sisters who knows that story and the basics of it, they know it starts with relationship and it starts with. A family and these two people who care about each other and grow from there.

And immediately we think this is about the family of God. This is about our heavenly parents children and our togetherness and our figuring it out together. So the togetherness aspect of it just really sung me. I love that. Me on studying it this time. I, I hope that makes sense. Totally did. I love it too.

Yeah. I, I just think that it feels so godlike, you know? That's such, that's his character. He is someone who unifies he seals, he brings together. Yeah. But it's never mandatory. It's. A choice, right? We choose to come together and then he seals that. And I, that just fits. It just tastes good. Yes. Isn't, isn't that right?

And actually, if I can add one more little kind of provoking thought here to give you something to chew on also with the idea that, good. There's a really fascinating thing, and I, and I need to give credit to Leon Cass, who's written this incredible book called The Beginning of Wisdom, all about Genesis And I, I heard, uh, elder Danes recommend this recently in a, in an address he gave.

And I thought, I gotta get my hands on that book. 'cause [00:12:00] it must be wonderful. And it is, it's wonderful. But he points out that there is one, uh, well, there are a few little elements of creation that are not called good, but significantly when man is created, it doesn't get the, and it was good designation that the other things do.

He makes the really great point that there are lots of meanings of the word good. And in this case, particularly with the Hebrew, um, ideas behind Good, it's talking about fit to the intention of, or fit to itself and its work or complete and, uh, distinct fully what it is. And the fact that humanity is not designated as complete and fully what it is, is really, really significant to think about.

Um, it really highlights our agency in the process that we are beginning in this beginning. Chapter of Genesis. Um, it, it just reminds us that we are part of it and that we are growing into something, working with God, not independently. And I think that idea has just been really intriguing. It's given me a lot to think about.

Okay, mind blown. Just for everyone listening, I did not know what these two are gonna share at all. And I'm dying because in the next segment I'm going to tell you didn't even know this, but what each of you shared is exactly the point I'm going to make in the next segment. This is fascinating. Oh, I love you both so much, K.

I'm gonna draw on everything you said. So now that our brain is in this space, this is gonna be really cool to see how you can help me connect all of this. So I'll show you what I mean. And you guys are gonna love this, and we'll do that in the very next segment.

Segment 2

---

So I asked my guests to come prepared to share a picture of a beautiful building that is sacred to them, and it couldn't be a temple. I said, exclude our faith practice outside of this. And so they sent me pictures and they're gonna be in our show notes. And so I'm gonna start with Mindy. Mindy, share with us the building that you chose, a beautiful building that's sacred to you, and tell us why it's sacred to you and the feelings you have when you're there.

Okay, well, I, I found an, an image of Duke Divinity School, which is where I got my master's degree in Christian practice. And I did that just a few years ago. So it's, it's been recent. It was returning, you know, later in life. I'm in my fifties, um, to go get more education and it's a beautiful building like period.

Duke campus is incredibly gorgeous. But it also captures in the background Duke Chapel, which of course is a, is a very sacred space. [00:15:00] But the school itself, um, as I, as I thought hard about what image to pick, I thought it really is such an unbelievably special sacred place to me because it was in that.

Space that I learned to love so many brothers and sisters that I probably would not have crossed paths with and learn to understand all the different angles that. Our heavenly parents' children come to a love of the Lord from, and that is really special to me. And I've had occasion to return a few times since I graduated, and it just, I, I get a lump in my throat and the tears in my eyes as I approach the building, as I walk through the door.

And it really reminds me of how many gifts I was blessed with there by way of learning new things, but especially learning to love these brothers and sisters who I adore. My goodness. What a phenomenal takeaway from a masters. That's incredible. Usually it's about what you're filled with instead. It seems to be this interactive that's that's that's very Mindy.

Yes. Both. Well, it was both. It was both. That's in very much, I mean, it just scratched the surface of so much to learn. It just reminded me how much I love to learn, so I love it for that. Now I like Maria's Maria, you, Maria is a little bit, uh, not what you would think, so this is gonna be a fun one. Mm-hmm.

Which I love. Yeah. So mine is a image of a hospital, which isn't normally a sacred place at all. In fact, I tend to hate hospitals. Um, but this particular hospital, I've, I've spent so many hours in, uh, so you guys know you're my friends. But we, Jason's had, we, we've wrestled with pancreatic cancer for the last nine years and it's recurred several times.

And I can't tell you the number of sacred experiences I have had in particular in this hospital. It's the stairwell. So in the center of this building, there's this stairwell that it goes up all those flights of stairs. And whenever we were gonna be there for a while, or when we got bad news or when things were hard, oftentimes Jason was resting, you know, after a surgery or after other things.

And I would go in that stairwell 'cause it was kind of my little. Space. You know, nobody really was in there. And I would just go up and down those stairs until, until I could get clarity or until my legs came out. But there, there were times when I, I don't know what it was, but something about I would step back into that stairwell.

And I feel that same sort of connection that I often can feel in a temple or in my scriptures even. You know, it's a place where I know he'll see me. 'cause I know he's seen me there in the past and mm-hmm. It's this gray concrete, mm-hmm. Ugly place and it became just holy ground to me because I got answers there.

Or at least just comfort there. Um, so that makes it sacred to me. That's beautiful. Wow. Yeah. Don't avoid the stairwells. They're great. I believe So thank you for sharing those. So let's take this idea of beautiful places that are sacred to us [00:18:00] and the creation of these beautiful places. And I wanna apply it to Genesis chapter one.

So let's go there. Back in our very first episode, we talked about who created the earth, and now we're going to talk about how they did it. You can remember we talked about how it was God and Jesus Christ. And then I asked my guest to go through Genesis one and highlight or circle all of God's verbs that he used.

In this creation process, what did you guys notice about the verbs? And is your pic, is your, uh, Genesis one just totally marked up and circled? Yes, very much. Yes. It was awesome. Tell me what that experience was. It was a great exercise. Yeah. Tell me why, what was that experience like? Well, for me, I enjoyed comparing, I know you told us.

I'm kind of an overachiever. Got it. You told us just do Genesis one, but I looked at Moses two and Abraham four. Love it. And I, I thought there were a lot of amazing consistency through the, the three, but also a couple of kind of bonus words, especially in Abraham. Mm-hmm. So I appreciate it that we have three versions of this mm-hmm.

Canonized to, to learn from and hear how they are in conversation with each other. But I also loved the difference in the words. Like I really was struck by the idea of calling, like God calls and he names like I, that's, it doesn't always. Specifically say naming, but that calling and seeing something and naming it, I think is actually really a lot of food for thought there and the significance of names, which is a big deal to us.

Very cool. Very cool. What about you? Anything Maria? I love those two. I love the varying accounts. To me it's almost like, you know how you can't have just one love song? You need a love song from a bunch of different perspectives to capture. Yes. Because that's such a big thing, right? Yes. So you can't ever have too many of those.

And to me, they're just different love songs. You know? It's like to hear the Abraham account is a different perspective than you hear in Moses and, and when you read all of them, you get a. Better understanding of God's love for his children. So I, I love the different narratives there, but the verbs were fascinating to me.

My favorite probably was, let, I just think kind of leading back to what Mindy just talked about, this idea of you are an active part of this process and you can see him with the savior who's helping him create. And also in Abraham account, it's this team effort, you know, these great noble ones who are working together.

And there's something about that. It's almost like he's teaching us about agency before he ever has people on the planet. You know, he's, he's talking about, let's let things happen. Let us go down. Let's I, something about that word. It just felt very interactive to me and he didn't need to be that way. You know, he is the creator of the universe.

He could just do all this on his own and instead he says, let us do these things together. And I think he's trying to teach in his actions as well as from the words we get to read. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this is perfect because we have all of these verbs that we've marked and we've talked about the verbs used in this creation process, and I'm picturing the builders building the buildings that you guys chose, and there they are.

They're using all [00:21:00] these verbs to build, to create to, they saw they, I I, I'm applying it to those buildings. And my question to you, I wanna go back to those buildings for a minute, is what do you think the intention was of the builders? When they were building those two buildings, just like, and I don't even know, we don't know them clearly, but just being in your building, what do you think the intention was?

And I think the answers will be so different. Well, for mine, um, I know that there actually was a lot of intention to make it beautiful and contemplative. Like there's a lot of stained glass in the divinity school and there's a beautiful chapel in the divinity school that's that's meant to really provide a place for profound divine encounter.

And so, uh, they were thinking about all those things, but, but also very practical. I mean, they had to figure out where do the restrooms go and Right. Like how do we have the venting done so every room can be appropriately cool at the right times of year or warm. They didn't always get that right, but I think they tried.

Yeah. Right. Oh, that's so good. I love that explanation. How about you, Maria? Um, I, I imagine it's with a hospital. Yeah, that's a good question. I imagine it's something around, we want you to feel like this is a place you could go in broken and come out whole, you know? So it's a place that looks sturdy, it looks strong, beautiful.

It looks very sterile and clean. You know, like even the outer surface of the building is shiny. And I think they were trying to get the, give you the impression of this is a clean, safe place where you can be, be like this. You can find that there. And so I think that was their intent. And I don't know that I, I saw that as much in the stairwell, but I do think they thought it was a place of safety, right?

The whole idea of a stairwell is there's an alternate way to get what you want to achieve. And I think there's some sweetness in that, in a lot of deeper meaning. That's beautiful. I love your answers so much because we can apply them to what do we think the purpose was in the creation of the Earth? And I think what both of you said perfectly applies to this creation.

And there's another verb, and I love how you said this, Maria. It's like three love songs. We're gonna look at a different love song with this verb. So let's do this. We're going to go to Genesis chapter one. And Mindy, you perfectly set us up for this by talking about the word good because the word good happens so many times.

In fact, I'll give you guys who are listening the verses. If you wanna take a highlighter, you're gonna find the word good in verse four, verse 10, verse 12, then turn, go to verse 18. You'll find it again in verse 21, and it says, it was good. That's what I've circled each time. It was good. Verse 21, verse 25.

It was good. But then you have verse 31, a little bit different because this time it doesn't say it was good in Hebrew and in English it says it was very good. And we love how the introduction of Adam and Eve then made the whole creation very good. And Mindy, you perfectly set up the meaning of good, complete and [00:24:00] finished.

And that word, very in Hebrew adds emphasis to the finished product, meaning done like he's done. All he's going to do it is complete. And now I'm gonna rest. And I love this idea in here, but let's look at the another different love song, because the Abraham account doesn't have any goods. It says something completely different.

So let's turn and cross-reference somewhere on your page in Genesis. You can put good. And then give us a cross-reference there. You wanna cross-reference it to Abraham chapter four and in Abraham chapter four throughout this. Instead of it ever saying, it is good. The creations end with the word or this, the phrase they saw that they were obeyed and you're gonna see this.

The God saw that they were obeyed in verse 10. You're going to see it again in verse 12. The God saw that they were obeyed. Verse 18, they which they had ordered until they obeyed Verse 21. They saw that they would be obeyed and that their plan was good. Oh, there we have a good there. Then we turn the page in Abraham, chapter four, and we have again, this phrase in verse 25, and the God saw they would obey, but then the phrasing in verse 31 is different.

Just like in Genesis 1 31, Abraham 4 31 has a little bit of different wording. Mindia, will you read Abraham chapter four, verse 31, because this verse specifically is talking about us and that question, why do you think God created. The earth for us. Go ahead. And the God said, we will do everything that we have said and organize them.

And behold they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning, they called night and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day and they numbered the sixth time. Now I pulled a Mindy because I looked at the words they shall be. Very obedient, and I was like, the word shall really hit me.

So I look up, the word shall and shall means. And according to the Webster's 1828 dictionary, it's foretelling, meaning it should happen. It's a future event. We're not sure if they're going to be, but we're really hoping that they will be very obedient. And that was really striking to me because then I went into this idea of, okay, let's go back.

Why do we think that God created. This planet or this earth, and we can apply the things both of you said for your buildings. But then I go to what Maria said, that we will prove them now herewith, thus say it the Lord, to see if they will do all things whatsoever. The Lord, there God shall command them.

That's what they said, a Abraham. There it is. Will we be obedient? Will we do? That's the whole purpose for me. That's what the Spirit taught me when I was reading the Holy Ghost taught me about will we be obedient with this beautiful creation and was that the intent? Here's a great quote. This is from President Gordon, b Hinkley.

Maria, will you read this quote for us? The happiness of the Latter Day Saints, the Peace of the Latter Day Saints, the progress of the Latter Day saints, the prosperity of the latter day saints, and the eternal [00:27:00] salvation and exaltation of this people lie in walking in obedience to the councils of God.

Thank you. Love that. Yeah. Talk to me about all of these wonderful things, because my question is going back to all of these verbs that we marked, how do those verbs play into your life then when it comes to the creation and our heavenly parents and all of these things obeying, which is so hard to do. I think he's trying to help us avoid the chase, don't you think?

I mean, look at all these words. He wants us to find happiness, peace, progress, all these things every person on the planet wants. Mm-hmm. Right? Nobody can have a cap on their happiness or a cap on their progress. Everybody wants those things and we chase them in a thousand insufficient ways. And I think what he's saying is, there is one way, like, if you'll actually just obey this, this plan that I've set up for you, then you'll find this end at every single time.

But we tend to come up with a thousand hybrids, you know, a thousand alternatives to what he's asking us to do. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Um, I was thinking too, as you pointed out, all those phrases within Abraham to me, as you hear all that and knowing the story and the process so well of the creation, you think, oh, I think that.

It's almost like he's saying, and he waited for them to cooperate and kind of do their part. Mm-hmm. He laid out that instruction and then the elements did their thing according to that wise instruction he was being given. And I think the, the idea of obey, especially if we get into the Hebrew again.

Mm-hmm. It typically is this idea of Shema that's, that's the Hebrew Right. And it, it actually is more about listening and hearkening and it implies a. A real humble acceptance of the instruction being offered. And in fact, Torah, the, the first five books of the Bible, we think of it as the Torah, but, but that idea of Torah really means instruction, and it's a crucial piece of a covenant relationship.

This willingness to listen with an intent to then follow and act upon because you're humbly receiving it. And I think all of that. Just fits in so beautifully, like with what Maria just said. Because when you recognize, like in this quote from President Hinkley, that happiness is the goal and our comfort and our enjoyment of it.

Like it's, it's really these great intentions God has for us and our humbly recognizing God knows, God knows exactly how we should be doing this and how it will work best. And our job is to cooperate and work with the system, not fight against it, right? Yeah. Like not kick against the pricks like we read a lot in, in the New Testament and things.

And um, I think that that idea that bigger. Idea of obedience. Sometimes we look at a very narrow angle of obedience as [00:30:00] must obey, do the thing right. And it feels, um, legalistic or, or like we don't have much agency in it, or boring. We're boring, right? Yes. Or like controlling. And we press against that because we are beings with agency.

We want to use our agency. And I think that seeing it in this cooperative, humble, instructive sense really makes me a. Feel more excited to participate through that obedience. Especially if you think of it, you know, like a harmony. Yes. He's essentially creating this beautiful melody and he's saying, you just harmonize with me.

It doesn't, it's not that we're making the exact same sound, we're we're, he wants us to add to this richness and the depth of the sound, but he wants your voice to contribute it. So he says, I'm gonna establish this, and you've gotta be, it can't be discordant, right. It has to harmonize with what I've set up.

And if you'll do that, then there's these incredible variations and your sound is different than my sound. And when we have this chorus together, I don't know, I, to me, I, I agree. It feels engaging. It. I dunno. Like you're an agent to act mm-hmm. Instead of someone to be acted upon or someone to just kind of go with the flow.

It, it feels more, yeah, I dunno. Inviting. Well, and it, it then lends itself to going back to what you talked about, Maria, with the proofing. Like the acting, the acting, the motion of something proofing. But what I love about that is then you apply my situation with proofing because I love that this word shall is it's future.

It's, they should, it's, it's it. And you know what, you might not be very obedient. It, it might not proof. So that's okay. Let's just pour it out. We're gonna start again. Love that. Let's just start another proofing process. No big deal. Like that's how it is in my family. My daughter, even last time we tried to make monkey bread at conference and it didn't work.

And she's like, mom, what did you do wrong? I'm like, it never works. I had to, I had to do, oh no, we made homemade cinnamon rolls. That's what it was. Homemade cinnamon rolls. And she's like, mom, what it. It doesn't work. I had to do it twice. And so, but it's okay because it's still then in the end turned out really great.

And so that's what I love about this. The Earth was created for us to come down here to be proved, to obey. And guess what? It's a process. We shall be obedient and we have so many shells in our lifetime and that's what I'm so grateful for. And both of you beautifully shared that. And, and in the end it will be very good.

It absolutely will be. It will have all been worth it. So thank you both of you for setting this up so perfectly with what the Holy Ghost taught you. 'cause I've totally felt the spirit as we've discussed this and, and we're not even done. So that's just the first take on a look at the creation. So in the next segment, we're gonna continue our discussion of the creation and Maria is gonna do some mind stretching come up next.

Segment 3

---

Maria is gonna talk to us more about the creation process. And we talked to you about how she's such a good teacher and that her [00:33:00] teaching style is unique. And when she mentioned to me, because I reached out to the women and said, tell me what stands out to you? What do you wanna talk about? Because these women are so wise and they paid the price.

And Maria wrote something. And in her writeup she said, it's kind of like, and then she named it Popular Children's Toy. And I thought, oh boy, here we go. This is gonna be awesome. So Maria, hit it. Talk to us more about the creation process and how you see it. And how you would teach it. I just think, I think it's fascinating the way they organize things.

You know, especially if you look in the Abraham account, I feel like over and over again they mentioned this idea of organizing and that there are, there are elements that are not created, they're organized. And that's a really critical part of our doctrine that we don't believe things were just created out of nothing.

We believe God saw chaos and said, I'm gonna organize this. And it just, for me, it, you know, those dumb plastic blocks that get wedged in your carpet that you step on because your kids have them everywhere. Like it Legos. That's what it is. It's like, yes, they're just like everywhere. I just think when, when he looked at that chaos, he said, oh, I can build something with this.

In fact, I want to build something with this 'cause I have joy and I want others to have joy. There's something so God-like about that. And so he organizes. So I pulled a few of the verses just so you can see. So this is, I'm pulling from Abraham four. It starts right outta the gate in verse one and he says, and then the Lord said, let us go down.

And they went down at the beginning and they, that is the gods organized and formed the heavens and the earth. So I almost pictured this Lego building process of like, what color do we want this to be? And what would be the most efficient way to use these bricks? And we've got this pile over here. What should we do with that?

I mean, I've watched my sons build Lego kits. For, I don't know, decades. You know, they, there are certain kinds of structures that there's a manual and you make it exactly how it's supposed to be made. And then there's the aftermath where all those get broken down, and then they're like, what should we make with this?

We've got this weird piece over here. And I just think there's, there, there's a lot more of that in the Abraham account. You get the feeling that he's saying, I, I'm gonna control this chaos by taking what I already have and building something beautiful out of it. And that just flows beautifully to me into what the savior does.

Throughout his ministry, right? He takes things that are broken or that are fractured, or that are in a state of chaos. Even spiritually, they're in a state of chaos and he says, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna organize those things. I'm gonna bring things back together. The reason I like that for me is I feel like it helps me in my revelatory process.

'cause oftentimes when I'm seeking an answer to prayer, it is not so much that there is some external answer. He's saying, oh, actually there's an answer right here. Can I give you some examples from scriptures, please? I pulled a few, please. So I love this with Nephi. He, I just think he does this beautifully.

So if you look in the Book of Mormon, like when he's, I mean, we all know first Nephi three, seven, he's trying to get the BA brass plates right, and he doesn't know how he's gonna do it, and what God promises him. What he seems to somehow know, probably from the teachings of Lehigh, is that God will never give him a commandment without giving the ways.

To accomplish that commandment. And [00:36:00] to me that's like saying, uh, there's something I want you to build and every Lego you need is here. I've given you so much more than you could possibly need. Just go and build. And then you see Nephi do this throughout his life. Now, if he's a young teenager in Jerusalem, then I picture him a little older when they're in the wilderness and he's in bountiful, he is gotta build that ship.

And he basically gets that same answer. You know, he knows he's gotta build a ship. He's not exactly sure how he's supposed to do it. And Nephi, because he knows the Lord says, where's the, or, there must be a Lego or somewhere, you know, there's, I, I'm missing something. And so he turns the Lord and says, help me find the or, and then I can build what you need me to build.

And of. The Lord does. And I just think when you see that in one Nephi 17, you've, you've almost seen the progression of nephi. He's like, okay, I know how this works. And for me, another addition to that is much later when he's an older prophet and he's seasoned and he's trying to build a temple. He doesn't have all the Legos he thinks he's supposed to have.

You know, he thinks he's supposed to build a temple that's like King Solomon's temple. And he's like, I don't have those. But if you look in, say, this is second Nephi five 16, lemme just read it for you. And I, Nephi did build a temple and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon say were not, not built of so many precious things for they were not to be found on the land.

Wherefore it could not be built like unto Solomon's temple. But the manner of construction was likened to the temple of Solomon and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine. Mm-hmm. So to me, there's this sweet progression in this. Organizing, you know, where at first he's like, I'm not sure even where to go.

And then in the middle stage he's like, they're, you must have given me these Legos. They must be here somewhere. And by the third he's like, if these Legos aren't here, it's gonna be just fine. Yeah. Because my heart is in the right place. And I feel like for my revelatory process, I get that a lot. The more I mature, the more I'm like, oh, actually I don't need those Legos.

In fact, whatever you've given me, I can work with that and it's gonna be enough. And seeing that pattern established by God in the creation story just gives me a lot of comfort. That was a long answer to your question, but I just think it's sweet. Oh wow. That was, I love that. Well. Can I just say, so first, Nephi three, seven is like my foundational faith scripture because, and the way you just phrase it, see, this is why you're such a good teacher because you, you phrase it as well, I need that Lego block.

And Heavenly Father's like, okay, let me, let me find it for you and help you find it so you can do what I asked you to do. And so to use that same terminology, then I remember, you know, I was in my late twenties, early thirties and I was worried I didn't have enough faith to get married. And I was talking to one of my best friends and I said, well, maybe I just don't have enough faith.

And it was really like, I had been tormented for weeks with this. Satan was like, you, God doesn't love you, you don't have enough faith, or you would be married. And I had been doing everything I was supposed to do that I thought would get me married. And then I remembered thinking of first Nephi three, seven.

And that was it. Like the, the commandment is to get married and God just hadn't provided a way yet. He hadn't found me, my Lego, my husband Lego yet. Right? So that was when I was like, oh, I do have faith. It's just the way it hasn't been provided yet. Okay, I'll just keep living my life the way I'm living it.

And someday hopefully I find that missing Lego piece [00:39:00] that stuck underneath the couch in the back, in the shag carpet from 1975. And the thing I love though is because I knew I wanted to get married and I knew I wanted to have a family. And again, though, and you brought this up, Maria is, and it made me think of my own family because the Lego pieces, I needed to have a family.

It, my Lego construction doesn't look like other people's. And that's still okay, because what I thought my Lego building would look like, God's like, no, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna give you this Lego piece. In fact, this Lego piece is kind of broken. So, but it's still gonna work and you're still gonna love it, and it's gonna be exactly what you want it to be.

And so I, I so appreciate the way you just taught that it applied perfectly to my life. And I, I love the idea of Lego blocks. Every one of us has a Lego block story, don't we? Yeah. Absolutely. And they're intentionally varied, don't you think? Like he, you're now, you're supposed to follow his pattern in building.

Mm-hmm. But what you're creating is gonna little be different. I mean the covenant path is the same, but what you're creating is supposed to be different. I think that's what makes us delightful. You know? It's delightful to gather with each other 'cause it's different. And why would I want it all to be the same?

Isn't that the joy of Legos? I mean, once all the, once all the ships have actually broken by like March. It is so fun to just have a pile of amazingly unique pieces and turn it loose. And everybody has so much fun doing something different. And then to hear, like when my grandkids explain to me what they've built and they tell me what all these elements are on their ship, it's like, wow, that is awesome.

I gotta write that down. It's so cute. But yeah, it's, the diversity is what's so beautiful about it. Oh, that is a great application. Wow. I love it. Maria is, do, keep going. Do you have anything more? I just, for me, I think he just demonstrates this over and over again throughout the creation narrative is he's showing I'm gonna take things that are, that, that seem broken to you and I'm gonna organize them.

I, for me, one of my favorite examples of this is if you think about your pantry, well, at least for me. Okay. Like, if you were gonna go organize your pantry, Tammy, the first thing you would do is you would say, okay, this is chaos. I've gotta get all this stuff out and I'm gonna, I'm gonna set some boundaries.

I'm gonna create boxes within boxes within boxes. Sure. You know, have you ever done that? Oh yeah. You get the bins and you like separate things out into bins. For me, that's what the creation narrative is, and he's got chaos that he's working with and he's saying, the way I can control this chaos and make everything fill the measure of its creation is to create boxes within boxes, within boxes.

So he creates species and then, you know, subspecies and different environments that those species can live in. It's almost like he's creating these, you know, these clear containers to hold everything in, not because he's. I don't think it's so much that he's like, I, I want this, I want to control everything.

I really think it's the same reason I make my pantry organized is so that my kids can walk into the pantry and find food to eat, you know, and so that things don't expire because nobody knew that they were hidden under that giant pile of things. And it, it fills the measure of the reason I bought it because now people can see it and access it.

And to me, when you read the creation accounts and you read [00:42:00] about the different days and mm-hmm. Or different segments of time that he's talking about, I really think it's that he's saying, I'm gonna take chaos and I'm gonna create bins so that people can access it and delight in it. And I love that piece of the creation story.

Yeah. Can, can I add a thought to that right there? That, that just sparked in my mind as you were saying that I think that. We do hear this, this idea of separation and distinction and division throughout the entire account and all the versions, right? But when then we think about the significance of the Sabbath being created there at the end and made holy, it's as if one of the key characteristics of holiness is distinction.

Oh, I love that. And right, like some having those boundaries and just, just being different and unique in a distinct way. Right? It's the seola of the peculiarity we, we talk about, and being the peculiar people. I mean, it's everywhere that distinction. And it is what makes things so beautiful. It's why a monarch butter butterfly is phenomenally stunning and so is a swallowtail.

Because I mean, the shape is different and the colors and the pattern, and it's just amazing. It's incredible. It's beautiful. Mm-hmm. Wow. Oh my goodness. I'm, I just, my mind is swirling with so much goodness in all of this. I'll never look at the creation the way the same again without thinking of Lego block.

Definitely. Maria, thank you so much for teaching us the creation with that lens, because it changes the way we view these verses now. And I love how you've taught us, and Mindy, how you've added in this distinction. I think that's so important for us to recognize, because then we can tie it back also to like this idea.

And it's not good for anything to be alone, like in these boxes, within boxes, within boxes. At the end of the day, they're all in one pantry. They're all together. Oh, and, and they all serve a purpose, a great way to say it. So thank you for giving us the way to think about that. That was fantastic. Oh, such a good discussion.

Okay, so I'm gonna tell you something kind of fun though. I learned a new word in. Preparing for this whole episode, and it's new to me. It probably won't be new to you. And I'm gonna tell you, here is a new word when it comes to the creation process. The word is bipartite. Bipartite. I'll go ahead and use it in a sentence.

Some scholars see the creation as having a bipartite literary structure. Now this was pretty cool, Melinda's like I, yes, I know. No, I love it. I love this apartheid. Not me. Not me. So this is pretty cool because the creation of Adam and Eve is described in Christian, Jewish and Muslim traditions through two complimentary accounts in Genesis one and Genesis two.

So you'll read these and they're actually two creation accounts. But what I love about it is that our faith tradition believes in and teaches a bipartite structure all on its own. [00:45:00] And so Melinda's gonna dive into that with us in the next segment, and I can't wait for her to teach us.

Segment 4

---

Let's go in our scriptures to Genesis chapter two, verse five, and we wanna highlight verse five, and I'm gonna give you guys a cross reference before I turn the time over to Mindy. So in Genesis chapter two, verse five. Mindy, will you read verse five for us, please? Yes. It says, and every plant of the field, before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was not a man to till the ground.

Okay, now highlight the word before. Right there. It's twice in that verse before it grew. Before it grew, because there's something significant about that. And here's your cross-reference. You wanna cross-reference it to Moses chapter three, verse five, because the creation as you read, it seems like a physical creation.

But Moses chapter three, verse five, is going to add a word that gives us some new understanding that makes these creations bipartite in our religious, in our faith tradition. Moses chapter three, verse five. Maria, will you please read verse five for us? You bet. And every planted of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew for either Lord, God created all things of which I have spoken spiritually before.

They were naturally upon the face of the earth for either the Lord God had not caused it to reign upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God had created all the children of men and not yet a man to till the ground for in the heaven created I them. And there was not yet flesh upon the earth.

Neither in the water, neither in the air. Thank you. So highlight. He created it spiritually. And then you can also put Moses chapter three, verse nine, where he says it again that all things were created spiritually first. So there is what our faith tradition believes in this bipartite creation. That God created everything spiritually first, and then he created everything physically.

Now, having said that, I'm gonna turn the time over to Mindy because Mindy's paid the price to study these two, and she has a wonderful take on these two books and this word and, and how much fun we're gonna have with it. But so the, the world was first everything created spiritually, then physically, but now talk to us about this, Mindy and these two chapters in Genesis.

Oh, there's so much we could spend hours and hours and hours on this idea. There is so much that has been written for thousands of years, literally, and, and discussed about these ideas. There, there is so much, uh, dualism that bipartite that you're talking about in the entire story. And uh, I think sometimes.

Uh, we look at the two creation accounts, I like to think of them as creation A or account A and account B. Okay. And if we wanna be really specific here, I would call account A. Um, Genesis one, twenty six through 28 is kind of the concise account, A right, and then account B. [00:48:00] In chapter two and three and it's really gets into the long, it's like the rib, right?

Mm-hmm. We all know the rib. It's that one much longer. And there are many people, especially within our LDS community, who feel like one of the key factors of the two is we've got a spiritual creation and a physical creation there. And I agree that the two are definitely prevalent and, and clear, clearly laid out in all these versions of the creation, whether it's Genesis, Moses, Abraham, account A, account B, you get all of that.

But I think it's also really valuable to recognize. Account A and account B. And, and let me add here, the two accounts are in every version. So if we think of, well, Moses is the corrected, perfect version of the Genesis account. Well, we still have the two accounts there, so, so we can see there's value in both and there's value in how they speak to each other and how they support each other.

Like you called them Tammy, their complimentary accounts. There are obvious differences, right? One is very short, one is much longer, one has the man and woman being created simultaneously in a very egalitarian way. And the other Adam is clearly, first Eve clearly comes second later and she comes out of man, right?

But when we look at them as, like Maria said, multiple love stories, or I might say, uh, multiple poems by different. Poets who wanna focus on different elements of it and draw out these significant pieces or perhaps to different audiences, things that will resonate differently to them. I think it really enriches.

The creation of humanity, to let them talk to each other and, and to consider the different versions and why they matter. There are so many of us, I, I think perhaps particularly women who love account A because it doesn't have the obstetrical impossibilities of, wait woman came from a man, what that No, that is not right.

And we can turn to President Kimball had a lot to say about that. He, he basically very, almost singly just said, of course it's figurative. This is not literal. No, this is poetry. This is, this is metaphorical. And there's so many beautiful pieces that we can draw from this image of the rib. But it is really comforting to have count A to know that well, yeah, we're not made from a rib and Right.

And so we can compare those two a little bit. And that's been done so many times by so many wise scholars and writers and thinkers, um, that, that, I [00:51:00] know we've heard a lot of those things, but one of the additional elements of the bipartite presentation here that I think is really, really significant is the idea of embodiment, which is absolutely crucial to our doctrine.

The value of our bodies is hugely significant. In that our souls are made up of body and spirit, like eternally woven together. I, I like to picture it as a mandala where one is not more prevalent than the other, but it's like this. This two color design just intricately woven, creating something really beautiful.

And that's not always what the world would have us think about how our souls are. In fact, I was, I was in a book group discussion just last week and the leader asked, well, why do each of you think is your soul? And it was so fascinating to hear the very ephemeral ideas of what each of these ladies was describing.

And, and this is a, this is a multi-denominational book group, so we, it was, it was great too. I mean, to hear their different backgrounds and how they would explain it. And when it got to be my turn, I was really grateful that I could just take a moment to really testify and say. Well, I believe in a literal resurrection, and I think our bodies are absolutely crucial to this entire experience and process of exaltation and salvation.

We need both, and they must work together and, and the thing that we then see that's very bipartite about how this happens is that that. The human, and I would even say the Earthling, which is kind of a funny way to think of this, but, but aam in, in Hebrew is like earth, right? Mm-hmm. It's like hummus. It's, it's like the ground, the dust.

It's his body. The human's body is created from the dust of the earth, but it's not a soul until the breath of life has been breathed into it from God. And that idea of this earthbound, elemental, uh, dust, right? Being enlivened with the divinity of the breath of God and together that creates the soul.

That is an exciting, beautiful idea. And when Maria was talking about her hospital stairwell. I was just like, I was just tickled with the way you described it because I would propose, and you tell me if I'm right or not, Maria, but actually running up and down those stairs and getting your body involved in working through the process of seeking clarity.[00:54:00]

I bet you actually was part of how you found clarity. Is that true? A hundred percent. I mean, they have a little chapel that you could go to in the hospital and I never, yeah, I couldn't find clarity there. Where I found it was by moving, like, it, there was something about like getting out that stress and that tension that I could feel in my body and it just sort of opened up some, you know, things that were blocked before all of a sudden became open.

Is that what you're Yes. Yeah. Yes, completely. And, and the movement of it actually getting your body involved in all of it. I mean, think about some of the language that we use. In fact, I just, I just used the phrase tickled, like I was tickled. Mm-hmm. Right by that. Okay. I love that. That's a very embodied yeah.

Term. Um, but you also think the biggest of all, we feel the spirit well feeling is sensory. It requires our body. Think of how much of our spiritual. Repertoire and bank account of experiences. They are physical. It's how we know for ourselves, it's what is totally undeniable. It's what a testimony is built on, where we can say, I know because I felt a burning in my heart.

Mm-hmm. I felt my soul expanding. Right? It's all these feeling words and I, I think the embodied experience is absolutely crucial and it's why this movement into, and then out of the Garden of Eden. Was so beautifully designed. I mean, talk about a fabulous plan because it allows for all of those embodied experiences that mortality is, is absolutely required for.

We have to get to learn how to, to create that harmony like we talked about earlier, between body and spirit to make that eternal progress. So I don't know. Thoughts on that? Does that resonate with either of you? Yeah, absolutely. What you just said added so much depth for me to section 1 38 verse 50, which I've had marked and I've always liked.

But what you taught, I suddenly was like, oh my. Goodness. 'cause it talks about the spirit world. And verse 50 says, for the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as bondage. Yes. Like mis, and I just think of the word bondage like that rather than the, you know, the absence from their bodies as sad or uncomfortable, or not convenient like the word.

Isn't that interesting that that word is used there in bondage and now I, I see it with so much more clarity based on what you just taught us. That was so cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Um, you know, I think like for a visual to offer all the listeners, this may help it and in teaching it as well, I think it.

It's helpful to consider some of the models that the world presents to us. Sometimes we're offered, I think of it, the Eminem model, [00:57:00] where our body is this thin candy coating shell and the spirit is the chocolate, which is really the good part inside. Right. And, and that imbalance, which frankly is grossly imbalanced, that that's not accurate.

That's not, uh, it's, it's like 2% body, 98% spirit. Right. Um, then we might also think of the opposite, sort of the everlasting gobstopper model. Yeah. Where this spirit is like, this teeny tiny mustard seed inside this huge everlasting cop stopper that's gonna take you Yeah. Months to suck away to get to that seed.

And that too, not, not a fair proportion. That's not accurate. One that I think is particularly prevalent, especially to our young people, is what I think of as the Pacman model that looks like jaws just like your body trying to eat. Mm-hmm. And destroy your spirits. And I don't think that's ideal either.

That's not what the, what God has in mind for this beautiful design. And for me, it really is that mandala image, that circular, interwoven, beautiful design. We need both. And sometimes it's our body that gets us to that spiritual experience and sometimes it's our spirit kind of taming the body a little bit that gets us there.

For me, especially lately, I've, I've had a year with lots and lots of wonder and awe through creation in hiking and getting outside more and seeing just beautiful vistas and, and landscapes. And to me that can almost instantly provide a spiritual experience. When I, when I really walked outside thinking I need a physical experience.

This spiritual floods into that and just fills all the nooks and crannies and crevices in such a meaningful, influential way for me that I come back having, had I come inside having had a spiritual experience because my physical body got me there. And so I love that love. I just think there's so much of awe and wonder, right, to, to draw from this creation story.

So I think we see that in the Savior's ministry too. Like he, he, he could have spent all his time in a synagogue studying and instead he, he used his body to do things and to put his hands on people and to heal and to help and to lift. And I love that mind. What beautiful thought. Well, the touching when, when you think of how much the savior touches.

Yes. I I think that's really instructive. Yeah. He's modeling it. It is instructive. And, and to go back to what I was saying about togetherness as opposed to aloneness and isolation at the beginning, um, I think every chance we have to reach out our hand and, and touch someone on the arm or the shoulder and it says, I see you and you are [01:00:00] here.

Like we are present together. Let me give you the gift of touch just to ground you in this physical experience that matters. It really matters. The worth of your soul is great. Yes. Your soul. Yes. Body and spirit. Your soul. Yeah. Body and spirit. Exactly. Yeah. Oh, I love how you both drew in other scriptures.

Um, thank you. That's beautiful. Great insight. Gorgeous. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. I, and I was thinking too, when you were talking about body and movement and having spiritual experiences, I, I love that connection so much about the idea of just getting outside and, and having your body physically connecting you to the spirit.

It made me think of like, could that possibly be one of the reasons we fast? Yes. Oh, a hundred percent is like, yes. Talk about engaging your body on, on a sabbath day, a day of rest. Yes, yes. Love that. You're completely, yeah, like I'm just kind of blown away where it's probably the only time in the month truly where your spirit actually overcomes physical.

Yes, and, and satiates it in a way. I don't know. I've, I've reached a point where I have fasted and I, and then I wasn't hungry. I dunno if that's a physical thing, if that's real or maybe in my brain, but I felt like the spirit was like, you're okay. You don't need food because I need food. Yeah. And, and I would just mention too, like, not even just on fast Sundays or when we're fasting, but, but every Sunday, the idea of resting, but also the Sabbath being a delight.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Think about delight. Yeah. We're being invited to have. Delightful sensory spiritual experiences on, on the Sabbath that are meaningful to us. Um, in the Hebrew tradition, in the Jewish tradition, they're really encouraged to have intimate experiences with their spouse and, and to be together and to have fun together.

That delightfulness and that too pushes us to, to let go of thinking, oh, physical is work hard. Yuck. Right? Mm-hmm. But, but to appreciate that, no, sometimes, but it's also recreational experiences as a family together, right? It's restorative like a family proclamation. It's restorative. Yeah. And seeing both the dual nature and the complimentary nature of both delight is always more delightful when you have been working hard and it comes as a contrast.

Mm-hmm. The contrast of the two makes both of them be more vibrant and meaningful. I think. So those are, those are some other thoughts that, that's brilliant. You guys, that that changes all those consequences for me. Like you're saying that I'm thinking about the consequences to Adam and Eve after, you know, when they're hearing the consequences of the fall, right.

That, that, that you only hear about the labor and the sweat and the toil, but really he's saying both. I, I hadn't thought about that. Men, you love that. Yeah, absolutely. Blessings. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Blessings that men might have. Joy. Absolutely. Yeah, the delight. Absolute delight. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. The joy, the joy of the [01:03:00] comparison and the contrast in the things.

Yeah. And I just wanna make a plug here for our newest apostle elder Coe gave an absolutely stellar devotional at BYU several years ago. It was 2020, called Harmony of Body and Spirit, a Key to Happiness. It's on BYU speeches. So good, so good org or whatever you do. It was so good. I love that we read that for this.

Yeah. It has really beautiful insights. Um, and I appreciate it. I think other Coe is a great model for this whole creation discussion because he also loves to speak about the stewardship of the earth. Mm-hmm. And caring for one another. I, I just, it's a great occasion for us to get to know him better by studying these talks.

So I'd recommend that one to, to our listeners because it's really is beautiful, has some great ideas, and it's a fun talk. Lots of fun talks about beauty and the beast. Right. It it's very French. I know. Yes. It's very fun, but very French. That's awesome. Yes. So I recommend that. It's a great talk. Wow. Well thank you Mindy so much for that because yeah.

Everything you just said and everything you just taught us is a perfect setup for what we're gonna talk about in the next segment, because I love how we ended talking about the whole goal of the soul and the body is to delight and is to have joy. And so I'm so excited about this because in the next segment you're gonna dive into the creation of these two earthlings.

I love how you called it that. Yes, these two earthlings and their whole goal and quest for joy. So we'll do that next.

Segment 5

---

So of course one of the things that stood out to Mindy was Adam and Eve, and I said to her, done, do whatever you want. Go in any direction. Because if you haven't read her book, please do. It is such a great read. It is phenomenal. It just, I mean, her book on the temple's phenomenal, but her book on Adam and Eve, or Eve and Adam as she so appropriately titles it, it's just a must read.

It is so good. And so I'm just not even talking anymore. Mindy, go talk to us about the creation of these two earthlings. Okay. Well I just have to say, this is like the hardest task in the world to be told. Take a few minutes, right? Yeah, right. And do this because I, you know, I would like to take 400 pages and, well, for the record, let me say this lots more.

Four years ago you were on the episode. The same one. Yes, that's, yes. And we talked at length about Adam and Eve, so I recommend going back in and listening to that one because you're gonna get a lot of good information. Oh, so good. Yes. And we couldn't, so anyway, just so everyone knows, well there's more than what she's missing and it's, it's always so painful for me to divide the way.

Come follow me. Divides Genesis one and two from, yes. 3, 4, 5. It's like uhhuh. Ah, you're leaving this at a cliffhanger. Yeah. You have to keep going. Right? Um, so, oh, there's just, [01:06:00] there's so much we could dig into and look at here. So I'm just gonna highlight a couple little bits, but I just wanna hear your thoughts too.

Okay. You ladies on on. What you see in this. So we talked a little bit about the rib before. So now let's actually look at some of the significance of account B, what I call account B. So that's more Genesis two, the longer account we've talked about, the dust of the ground and the breath of life that's highlighted there in Genesis two, seven.

We'll kind of skip the river section for now. Pause on that. And get to this idea that it's not good for him to be alone. We've talked a lot about that. And then we get the, the, uh, shall we call it, infamous phrase, help me, which, which I know I'm not the only person who really dislikes that term. It's been abused and it's been misused and misunderstood.

So let's see if we can't get a little bit more to, to, um, truth in what that term, the Hebrew term really means there. The Hebrew term is zerto, and my guess is most of the listeners are familiar with this as well, but it bears repeating because it's so significant that we understand this accurately. So Azer is a really, really.

Important word in scripture because other than this occasion, it refers to God-like help. In fact, usually the savior's help. It is salvific in nature. Um, it's more, it's more than a sidekick that, like, that's just, that's a horrible way that it's been misappropriated in especially the English evolution of the term.

So, so right away we see that there's significance that, that eve is being referred to as an azer. This is one of the two hugely important ways that she is linked to the savior. The savior is a savior, right? And so is Eve. They share this idea of being a salvific help to another and, and to others, but also life.

Eve's name, Hava is life. And we think of all this buildup that we've just spent so long talking about through the creation, the presentation of the creation. It's all about life and that soulful living and uh, and, and enlivening. The, the cosmos, really earth and water and all the animals and all of creation enlivening it.

And so the fact that Eve is given this kind of dual name of savior and life with our [01:09:00] savior just shows how tightly connected they are. Um, and if we were digging into Genesis three, four, and five, we could get way more into that because I think that, you know, just be excited for next week because their relationship is so crucial to the perfect design of the plan, the great plan of happiness.

It's, it's crucial to see that. But it's also so important to see how much Eve and Adam are fit for each other. And that second word conecto is really about, it's, it's like one of the best illustrations, I think is your two hands and how they're almost mirror images of each other, but then they fit together beautifully.

When you lace them together, um, there's so much strength in that lacing, right? Uh, your hands woven together are more than the sum of their parts. You can do incredible things with that strength when you hold hands with another, especially there are different grips that are stronger than others, right?

When we clinging to each other, when we cleave to one another, we see just how complimentary and supportive we are to each other. I think to me, one of the obvious aspects of this idea of a sustaining. Complimentary partner who fits you perfectly and works well with you is reciprocity. And I'm so grateful that as a church and in, in some of our most sacred liturgy, we're starting to recognize much more that their help meet to one another, like meet to each other.

They're fit to each other, and they're meant to help each other. When we think of companions, especially like in a missionary context, sometimes yes, you have a senior and a junior companion, but, but they're really meant to lean on each other and to support one another. And I think that's really, really built into account B for us.

And so it's important to see that it makes a difference to see that, especially as women. We need to see that and also, especially for men to mm-hmm. To just recognize that it's, it's in the story. It's right there. They're meant. To do this together. And in fact, one of the beautiful things that's added, and we're jumping ahead just a tiny bit to next week, but, but that first half of Moses five is such a crucial addition to the Genesis account because we have 16 verses there of all the things Adam and Eve do together.

Mm-hmm. And so it's really important to see that. Um, but I also think the rib, which does cause a lot of people head scratching and concern. Is also really valuable. Um, [01:12:00] first of all, the, the Hebrew word there, it's is sayah and it represents the side, usually of a sacred building. Yeah. So it's uniquely used in this account because it's translated as rib, which we might think, well, what a crazy translation.

Like that's just an era of translation. I don't think so. Um, metaphors taken from the body are really prevalent in the Old Testament. There's so many things about body parts and the body as a whole, which is a beautiful precursor to the New Testament's body of Christ. Imagery and metaphor that, that we learn so much from that is so incredibly valuable to our togetherness to see it that way.

And so I think the rib is in fact a really profound, uh, poetic metaphor because it puts them side by side. Uh, your rib cage protects your most crucial organs. If we see this artistically with Adam with a hole. In his side, something missing and it's walking beside him. They are now connected very physically that way in that they, they are part, part and parcel of one another.

But also he now has a scar where, where it has been that piece has been removed and her creation there has left him with a wound that we would assume healed. But this constant reminder, right? I think that's an incredible image to think. Now you can also think, well, this was divinely done and there's no scar.

But actually I think we have evidence that Christ appreciates scars. Agreed. Yeah. Scars are valuable. Right? Scars matter. Scars are remembrances. Uh, they're a memoir of really significant things, and if every day that Adam looks down in cleansing himself and he sees a scar to remind him of this relationship, that's pretty significant imagery.

And so I think that's pretty beautiful. What else would you add? There's so many ways we can, we can find, find meaning in that. If the rib really was taken mm-hmm. Then it would be a reminder that, Adam, you're not whole without her. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. She gives you the missing piece and vice versa. And vice versa, like they need each other.

I just think he is a master teacher. You know, he is so good at master because we're all different kinds of learners, right? So some people are gonna learn with words really well, and some people are gonna learn with the physical really well. And I just think he, he weaves into his teaching, I'm gonna do all of those things I'm gonna teach you in every possible way.

And I think over and over in the creation narrative, you see him teaching with the things around them that they will then internalize and over the course of time be like, oh, maybe this is what he meant. You know, [01:15:00] kind of the same way we feel at the temple. Like, you can do the same thing for years and then be sitting there and think, oh my word, how have I never seen this before?

And I think that's his pattern. I, I love that you see that with our first parents at the very beginning, that he's not trying to dump knowledge into them. He's trying to just place it around the garden and say, you consume this at your pace. When you're ready, it will make sense to you. And it's so patient.

I, I just think his approach is. Astounding. Yes, very patient. It built in layers to just keep finding more layers. And I do think when you approach the all of the Old Testament, but particularly Genesis as we've got these absolutely foundational stories, you have to come at it. From a layered perspective, and I mean you could easily reread this material five times and each one from a different perspective.

First, bring your physical eyes to it of the elements, then bring spiritual eyes to it. Then bring uh, a political sense of, of relationship. Really see community in this. Bring your kinship sense, see family here. What are all those elements? I just think all of that is really, really profound. And then at the very end of this section, I just would love everyone to really highlight in verse 24 of Genesis two, and it's in the other versions as well, cleave.

Cleve just couldn't be a more awesome word, in my opinion. Um, in, in a lot of ways. To me, it is a single word that sums up the entire great plan of happiness as presented in these opening chapters of Genesis because it shows us everything coming together into this earth experience, all being organized in this orderly way, but then this very crucial separation that needs to come and that's in next week's reading.

But, but the separation of them needing to step out of the garden and have an experience together, like going to college. It's so valuable for our children to leave home as much as we want them with us always. We want them in the big sense, always. But we also get, it's crucial that we get a little distance from each other.

They have to go learn some things the hard way. And I, I think that knowing, again, the relationship that we see set up with Eve and Christ, how they can work together and what comes ahead with repentance and forgiveness and reconciliation. The at one mint that is at the heart of the whole, it's the glue of the entire design, the grand design.

It's connecting fibers. It's [01:18:00] glue is the at one mint that the Saviors love and sacrifice offers us. It's that atoning love and sacrifice that makes the whole thing work. And it's that cleaving back together, you know, that it's, it's. The, the literary power of a contran that has these two different meanings that can mean separate and come back together.

There couldn't be a better word in English. Um, and we're lucky that way. I don't know about every language how you might define this, but to have that right there that they're told to cleave to one another and then we know that the savior is what will actually allow them in the grand scheme of things to, for all to come back together again, just to me, is just, it's so profoundly poetic.

It's powerful and beautifully done in multi-layered presentation. And don't you love that they see this so early mind stretched. I know. I just think it's like, this is so early in the process of Adam and Eve that they would get this knowledge so fast. You know, that, that, that you're gonna leave, you're gonna like, I just feel like that's something we often skip right past.

Like he tells them right at the very beginning, you're gonna leave father and mother and you're going to hold tight to each other. Yes. And cleave away everybody else, you're gonna cleave together. And also you're cutting away. Yes. All the other, and I just think there's something really profound about that.

He teaches that so early. Well, and and you bring up such a great point there, Maria too, because there again, there are many layers mm-hmm. That we can approach this account with and this story. But if we look at it real time and they're being told, great, you're gonna leave mother and father, who are they talking about?

Right. I mean, what, what a beautiful moment of just clarity that they are there with heavenly parents who love them and they know them. They know them so well. Right? It's, it's this divine family from right there. And then if you bring another lens to it and look. Millennia down the line, and you see these Jewish rabbis who are trying to decide all the beautiful ways they could orally relate this story.

And, and ultimately, which ones do we weave into the scroll, which are getting stitched in because they are such beautiful accounts. Mm-hmm. And like what matters that they saw the value of pointing that out as well. That this is a family story. Mm-hmm. And it, it reminds me, that piece right there always reminds me to look at the proclamation on the family as the proclamation on the eternal family and the proclamation on the family of God.

And, and it's just a way of thinking bigger. They're just, they're pieces just scattered throughout like little gems to find that, remind us, think that. And so that's a phrase I, I'd suggest to everyone who's studying as [01:21:00] well. Okay. Let's do this though, because when you said that there's little gems that cause us to think bigger.

Can we just go back to verse 22 really quickly, because there's a word that's a little gem that you skipped over, and I just can, we're gonna make time for it because you have to teach us this word. Yes. Time, make time. Because you taught us what the word rib means in Hebrew, which is sayah. And you said it's often used for sacred structures.

Mm-hmm. But it's, it's no mistake or coincidence that it was stitched into this verse, the word that they used to describe how the woman was made versus created. Because Adam was created. Mm-hmm. And eve was made, and in Hebrew, the word made, and you know this Mindy, that, but you go, Tammy, go, go. No, I I want you to teach it.

No, no, I You go ahead. You go ahead. You can say it beautifully. You've just written all about it. It just makes me so happy because. Adam was created, but eve was made and the Hebrew word for made is bah and that word, 'cause you said the word rib and you even said it with azer, where it's structured. Mm-hmm.

It's, you know, used for the savior. And rib is mostly for buildings that are sacred buildings, but the word bah made is universally used to describe building sacred structures, Tabernacles or temples. Uh, altars as well. Mm-hmm. And altars as well. Oh, thank you. That's altars as well. Yeah. Altars. And so how amazing that in verse 22 you have these two words describing, building beautiful sacred structures and altars as the word that is chosen to describe how the woman was made.

Mm-hmm. Love that not to take away from Adam being created. He needed to be Yes, from the earth, but it just as a woman and the three of us, I think it just kind of, I don't know. God loves us. God loves his women. Yeah. And you know, it just, it makes me think ahead to when the tabernacle instructions are being given repeatedly and you've got the artisans who are being told.

So specifically. Yes. I'm talking here about Exodus chapter 25 and 26, and colors are highlighted repeatedly. Like there is a beauty that we are meant to appreciate about this and the difference of the words as well, the forming of the earth being, being a lot more nuts and bolts like than the craftsmanship, like the finishing work of, of made.

Mm-hmm. And so I think those are some beautiful thoughts. I'm glad you drew that out. Thank you. Oh, you bet. Well, and I think the cool thing is, and, and I wrote in my scriptures, I forgot I wrote this, but I wrote. That Eve was built to build. And I, I love that idea that she's building these sacred edifices within her.

And, um, we were all, we were all built by, by Eve's every one of us. So, wow. Yeah. That's, that's an important thing to highlight as well. I mean, there's such an important role that every human being passes through the [01:24:00] body of a woman. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's pretty major. It's pretty significant. So for you, I love that you, that you included the altar.

We could talk about that forever too. Yes. Oh, we could. There's so many things. Okay. Okay. This was so fun. This was so good. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for teaching us about those words. And to those of you listening, have some fun, really dive into these word words. And I just love how you said little golden nuggets, because there are, you could read it five times and every time it'll be a different thing.

So thank you for sharing that with us. Okay. Now listen. I dunno about you guys. For me, my mind has been stretched and I just go back to that quote from our prophet and we're not done because in the next segment, Maria's going to share just two verses of scripture that stretched my mind and made me go in and read it in Hebrew and find out so many things, and I cannot wait for her to share it.

This is so exciting. So we'll do this next.

Segment 6

---

All right, Maria. I'm very excited for this part, Maria. Very, I wanna hear that. He excited. I didn't do that part, so you're gonna have to tell me what you learned that so much. Okay. Okay. So everyone turned to Genesis and when, again, when I asked the women what stood out to you, Maria just throws this little nugget at us.

She's like, oh, and how many times have I read this verse and I've always just read it and gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Oh no, there is significance. So, Maria, hit it. Tell us where to turn to what, what to read and teach us. Well, you can see in a few different accounts, so don't feel like you have to just narrow down to one.

But I do love the, the story of the rivers. So it's really interesting where it's placed, you know, in most accounts it's Adam has created, and then God describes the garden that he has made, that he has planted both of these trees that are, have very different purposes and they're both created by God. And he makes this garden very clear that he has made it this way.

And then he talks about these rivers that go out of Eden. If you look in the verses in the Genesis account, you can find it. It starts around like 10. So in eight and nine he talks about how he has created this garden and both these beautiful trees. And then in 10 he says, and a river went out of Eden to water the garden.

And from then it parted and became into foreheads. And then you can go into the subsequent verses and learn the names of, you know, all this beautiful symbolism in the names. But it's the very fact that something leaves Eden that I found So. Enlivening because what we've been talking about all this time is how God's been planting these seeds in Adam and Eve's mind that you're not gonna stay here.

You know you're gonna cleave together. You're gonna go imagine what it must look like from their vantage point to see this great river that he has created that goes out. And don't you think they wonder, I mean, I hate to make it sound like Moana, but you know, like they wonder where does that river go?

Where does it end and what, you know, I just think every day when you wake up and you hear those waters and you're, it's something is going out, but it's really, the fact that it divides that I think is really poignant because that's what happens in mortality in this mortal experience right now in the garden.

They're in this, I always compare it to like the MTC. It's a beautiful good place that is very safe and it has all, every meal provided and it's, you know, it's this [01:27:00] very safe experience so they can learn fast, but it's never supposed to be a place you stay forever. It's a place to develop you until a certain point.

When you need street smarts, you gotta. Get out, and I just think that's what you see with this river. It's this very strong indicator that when you leave here, you will have a pull. The pull of the mortal world will divide you as a couple. It's gonna try to divide you. It's gonna try to divide you from me and your understanding of who you are and it divides.

But what I think is phenomenal about God's plan. I really think his whole gospel narrative is designed to bring those rivers back together. So the visual for me, I, I remember being in southern Utah, I'm a hiker. I love to hike. And I was on this really high precipice and I could see this big river and it split like I was high enough up that I could see how there was, you know, some land masses in the middle and it split.

And then if you looked far enough away, you could see where that river braided itself back together again. It'd become these three little branches. And then over the course of time it, it formed a mighty river again. And to me that's. The plan of salvation. Uh, we all have to have this mortal experience where we divide where things are.

It's hard, it's messy, and things are, the world's gonna try to pull you apart and what God's gospel does, it's almost like he's hand carved this environment where our rivers can come back together. I mean, think about your opportunity to make covenants with him. He's deliberately carving a bluff so that your river knocks against that and turns towards other people.

You know? 'cause to keep my baptismal covenant, I have to care about the needs of other people. I have to take his name upon me. I, I have to keep the commandments. Those are things that naturally will help me be a part of a congregation and be a part of a group. I'm naturally coming back to this bigger river, and I feel like along those covenant path choices, you're, you're joining and by the time you're at the end of this covenant path, you've become this.

Mighty surge. You know, I, something about the visual of that to me just, it just kind of lit me up inside to see, it helped me understand my world a little bit better. 'cause oftentimes I think, well, if I'm just righteous enough, I won't feel that pull. I won't, you know, I, if I was just making good enough choices, I won't feel that.

And I think he's trying to say like, no, this is mortality. Mortality is supposed to divide you so that you choose to unite. And I started to look at things like I looked at the Sermon on the Mount, for example. If you, if you think about the Sermon on the Mount, all of the Savior's instructions are essentially saying, follow my course.

And you'll come back. You'll unite again with the Father. But they're not gonna feel good to the normal world. You know, the normal world, I'm in Matthew five, but I mean, listen to his directions. This is Matthew five, verse 41. And whosoever shall compel de to go a mile, go with him twain. You know, that is not what the world teaches.

And the Lord is saying, I'm gonna, if you follow this gospel path, it's gonna push you into other people. You're gonna join with them. 'cause it's not good to be alone like Mindy taught us. Mm-hmm. And it just keeps going. Like in 42, give to him the ashy and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou way.

You have heard that It has been said Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thy [01:30:00] and me. That I and to you. Love your enemies. Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you and pray for them, which despitefully use and persecute you. That you may be the children of your father, which is in heaven for he may get the son to rise on the evil and on the good and sendeth reign on the just and the unjust.

And then beautifully, he talks about love. I'm gonna skip down just a little bit, but in 48 he's encouraging us to be perfect. He says, be therefore perfect, even as your father, which is in heaven is perfect. And we know from. Several conference talks and other things that Perfect is, it's more about completeness.

It's, you know, reaching that measure of your creation. Mm-hmm. But to me, it's like joining fully with that river. I'm no longer divided out. The world can't, I've, all of a sudden I've submitted my will. You know, kind of like King Benjamin teaches us. I've, I've sat down the natural man and I've said, I'm, I'm all in.

Have you ever had those moments? I know you're nodding your heads, like, have you had those moments where you're like, it doesn't even have to make sense to me, I'm just all in. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's that, it's that humble acceptance of instruction, right? The acknowledgement that this way is always better.

I just thought like, I have had enough experiences. I, you know, and part of it is age. It's why. Old people are so wise, right? Because they just have had so many experiences to say, eh, no, that on try number 89. I also learned his way is better on try number 112. His way is better. Right? You know, because we've run into enough boulders, you know, like don't you think that's how he frames the world?

He's like, Maria, if you don't come to me, I'm gonna create a boulder right here that your water's gonna crash into for a while. And eventually you're gonna be like, I'm sick of this. I'm gonna change course. And so I think once you've hit enough boulders and enough rocky terrain and you've felt what it's like to be on your own, you're like, why would I want this?

I'm coming home. Yes. And I think that's what he wanted Adam Neve to understand is you will need to leave. You'll need to separate. The world's gonna pull at you, but you can come back home. My gospel will help you come not just home to me, but like together you'll be a part of this eternal family forever.

That's a sweetness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would add there's one other, I think, image that is contained in those four rivers that's worth pointing out, and that is the four of them are, are presumably kind of heading out in all four cardinal directions. And, and again, a kind of a literary technique often used is.

Highlighting kind of the key obvious ones, but representing the entirety. And so I think there also is this element, like you've, you've pointed out so beautifully, Maria, that it's going, that water flows in every direction. Whichever way you go, you have an opportunity to get back into the river and to go with the flow of the bigger, the stronger community that is moving in that healthy, beautiful direction that that covenant path direction.

Yes. Mm-hmm. I love that one. All those intersections where you run into other people's agency. Yeah. You know, like you just run into someone [01:33:00] making choices and you're like, now my life is off course and this isn't fair. I didn't want this. And really, you just have to picture a river that, oh, no, he can, it's, it's like a very fluid GPS system.

Right. A river will find a way around every kraken crevice in between trees if it has to. And ah, yes. The Lord will find a way to get you back to that river. He, I just, something about that sounds so refreshing to me, and so mm-hmm. Enlivening and Relentless. Relentless. Oh, that's such a great way to say it.

Yeah. Yeah. I love the imagery of the river. Beautiful. We always talk about the covenant path being the straight and narrow way, but when you look up the spelling for straight S-T-R-A-I-T and you realize, I, I love that I learned this, that every straight leads to a bigger body of water. Mm. And so what that, that's, I love that all the different rivers, every time you're in that straight and narrow path, it doesn't necessarily mean like.

Straight. And I love the idea of narrow the narrows when you're in the narrows. Yeah. Narrow in proximity. But really what you have to be is very careful and calculated when you're walking narrows. You have to be careful of where your placement of your foot goes. And down in Zion, anyone who's ever walked the narrows nose, you better be at prepared.

You have to have water and a backpack and a walking stick and really good shoes. And so I love that idea of just in, when you're in the straight and narrow, it is going to lead to God. Mm-hmm. And for some it takes a little bit longer and that's okay. And for some, you know what? Maybe you didn't pay attention, you decided to walk it when it rained.

Sorry. So pay attention to the warning signs. Yeah. But because the premises mortality works, right? Yes, exactly. One way another, that's mortality works. Absolutely. And those rivers do lead. So, wow, that was so cool. See, mind stretched. Love that. How many times have I looked over that verse? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

River, this is great, Maria. Thank you for doing that for us, all of you. That was fantastic. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, that's the end of our discussion. That's it. That was so good. Wow. But I knew it would be, I told these women at the very beginning, but my prayer going into this episode was, help me to please.

'cause I just wanted to be a student the whole time. I didn't wanna have to host. So Heavenly Father, just whatever. Help me to be able to do that naturally. But I just wanna sit and learn from them, and so he answered my prayer. I learned so much. So thank you. You we're all so much better for each other. I learned so much from each other in our discussion.

I love us like it's so fun. It's together. It's so fun. Okay, so just gather your thoughts and share with us now at the end, what is an eternal truth that you learned, or relearned, or basically your takeaway. What's something that stood out to you from our discussion today? I'll go first 'cause I was the student.

Um, okay. First I loved Maria when you taught us the Lego account, that hit my heart so hard. 'cause I'm like, yes. I can't believe how many times the Lord has given me Legos. Or I'll even be like that Lego. I didn't wanna use that one. And he's like, trust me, you want this Lego. Like I'm still going. My mind is all over the place with that Lego.

That was so good. And then Mindy, I really loved your [01:36:00] account A and account B, the way you taught that to us. But then how you just dived into the body, the soul, the spirit, and how we need it. And just your wording. I'm gonna go back and listen to this again because it was so precious the way you described the need for a physical body and our spirit and the combination, and it's not the gobstopper analogy.

I was gonna ask you though, what is an analogy that does work for you? Is there a food analogy? Uh, I don't know. I don't know. A food, I gotta think more about that. If there's a food one. I just think of a mandala. 'cause you gave food ones. And I have, yeah. I mean, I just like, I, I collect images of mandalas even because I'm just looking more for that.

That's it. Constant reminder of how beautifully they're woven. You know, it's, it's a weaving. I'm on this, Tammy, I'm gonna find, think about it. Yeah, I know. Is you Maria? You're on it. Maria, please. Because you find us once, if I teach, can't wait to hear what you send. I wanna give my students something to eat.

Oh, that's perfect. So, okay. That's what I learned. That's it. And no, I mean, I'm not throwing shade on M and msm. They're the greatest. Right. Well, you do have candy drawer about everlasting gob pepper. I do, I do. I know you have a candy drawer. You wanna see what's, what's in your candy drawer today? Now Hot tamales Nice because the, a long way.

Sometimes love a hot loss. She just need hot tub. I have a case, a case of the baby size. I had no idea. Brilliant. This is good to know. It's Embarra. Oh, I'm you and me, sister is my friend. Love it. Love it. Not really. Oh, Maria, what do you, what were your takeaways? Well, one of my favorites, I was scribbling notes constantly.

One of my favorites, I think it came from both of you, but you were talking about the Hebrew word with obey. Was it Schatt? What did you say It was? Shema. Oh, Shema. Shema. Okay. Tell me how to spell this. 'cause I have to write it. My margin. Well, you sound, I mean the English Yeah. Translation. What do you think S-H-E-M-A is probably the most typical Shema.

Mm-hmm. Um, I love the way you described it as listening and hearkening. I think oftentimes, I mean, obviously that fits with obey. It's not that the other word is the wrong word. It's that when I, no, not at all. No, it's just, it's just richer. Yes. It's, and rounder and soft, you know, it's what Hebrew does. Yeah.

And it's a little more delicious. Like it tastes good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sometimes we can't overcome what. Natural progress of language does to words. Yeah. But the connotations of obey are uncomfortable to many. But if you, if you, uh, if you enrich it and build it out Yeah. You realize, oh no, that's a beautiful word.

I love that word. Yeah. Because you have to see it bigger. And it just felt like, I don't know, I know we talked about music before, but almost like, you know, someone who's listening. If you've ever watched like a jazz band play, and then there's somebody who's playing and then somebody else has a whole different instrument.

Yes. And they're listening so carefully, but I, that's, it opened that up for me. I'm like, oh, obedience is that. It's more this interactive, okay, here's where you're telling me to go. I'm gonna follow that and I'm gonna see where it leads and mm-hmm. I just have never heard that word. I loved it. Yeah, it's a fun word when you get into Exodus because yes, there are times when the children of Israel use that word [01:39:00] with God and they're asking him to shema them.

Like, ah, interesting. Listen, harken with the intent to obey what we're asking of you. Heaven, a father, it's la like it's a dual, it's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fun, fun word to, to study. So yeah, it's, it's important. Yeah. All right, miss. It's beautiful. Alright, well let's see. Yeah, I, you both said so many brilliant things that were really enlightening to me, but I would say, um, for Maria's, because I know and love Maria so well, I actually predicted you might bring a picture of the hospital.

Did you, I know your heart. And I just thought that's probably one of her most sacred spaces like that. But I didn't predict the stairwell and I just love that, love the idea of running up and down it. And you said, um, until clarity came or my legs gave out and like that. I just, because I really think a lot about the power of embodiment and the beauty of embodiment that really, really spoke to me.

And like that just, that choked me up. That was really, that was moving. Thank you for sharing something so personal. I know those must have been some really, really, really hard times. Yeah. Just, no, I didn't run up and down those stairs. Not one time. Yeah. I, I walked, I trudged, I cried. I, I'm, yes. And all those words, those make it even come to life more.

That's beautiful. It was. Thank you. And, and Tammy, I love that you took the time to draw out that difference between create and made, because you're right that, that's so important and that, and as we discussed that. It to have my mind jump ahead to Exodus there. I hadn't, like earlier in the week, as I've been studying and thinking about this so much, I, I hadn't remind, remembered that connection and I think it, that is a beautiful connection in my mind.

I love thinking of the beauty of that. So it was fun to have a discussion about that because I, when I thought more about Adam, then it came where I was like, oh, Adam was created to create, yeah, women were built to build and you could go off on that in so many different ways 'cause men are so great at creating and making and doing, and then you think about this idea and imagery of building spiritually and what women do in a home.

And I just loved all of it. So yeah. Yeah. There's so much to creativity, right? I mean, just. How you look at words, Mindy. Million ways to create. Yeah. Well, I just, I think it's a good reminder for every listener. You, you are creative. Yeah. You are creating something. It, it may not be an oil painting, but are you creating peace in your neighborhood?

Like there just, there are million ways to create it. So many. All from the creation narrative. So thank you ladies. Thank you. You so well prepared. What a good discussion. You listen everyone, they'll be back. I'm gonna ask 'em to come again night, you know, later on in the year. Don't you worry. 'cause I my favorite.

I just love it when you guys are on. So I'll have you come back on Maybe for the Pro. Oh, maybe for Wisdom [01:42:00] Literature. Oh, I, I love that. Okay. Maybe 'cause as we all know, wisdom is female in Hebrew. Beautiful. Very good. Okay, well thank you. I love you both so much. That was so much. Thank you. Totally delightful.

You guys are the best. Love you guys. Yeah, thanks. Well, what eternal truth did you learn? Because there were so many. Holy moly, that was awesome. So join our group on Facebook and follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned. And then at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we post a question from this discussion.

And here's my question. What is it about this life that you delight in? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday, and go there anyway, because it's where we have links to all of the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Maria Eckersley and Melinda Wheelwright Brown. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember, you are God's favorite.