The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Segment 1

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In your desperate moment of need, what do you turn to? And what has worked? Is there one specific thing? Do you engage the help of others? Or have you tried something unexpected and it worked? Because today's discussion is about desperate moments of need, and 2 Chronicles chapters 14 through 30 has some pretty amazing stories about what works, and some very unexpected ways the people received help from the Lord.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend Karen Garber.

Karen, I love meeting you. Now, the best thing about this study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different, and this week is different. I've never had these two on, and it's been a long time coming. They even said, "We never thought we'd get this day," and I said, "I don't just ask anybody to discuss the Book of Chronicles.

It came with a lot of thought and prayer." And Heavenly Father's like, "Um, it's Mike and Shawna Johnson." Those are my guests. Mike and Shawna, hi, you two. Hello. Hello. Hey. How do you two know each other? And how, how long have you known each other? Well, I, I have to start. Um, I've known Shawna for longer than she's known me, because I spotted her while a college student living with my roommate, Jim Hall, your husband.

Hey. And I saw this girl, and she caught my eye back in the spring of 19- was it '89? Yes. Oh. And, uh, from then on I had my eye kinda set on her, and somehow tricked her into moving in next door to the apartment. Uh- ... I'd moved up, uh, Jim and I had moved up to a new place, and, uh, convinced her to move next door.

I needed to keep her close, you know, keep an eye on her and, uh- 'Cause she's a darling redhead. Of course. And, uh- I mean, who wouldn't wanna date that? That's right. And I, and I hung around long enough that I think she got used to me. Yeah. He, he chased me hard and I caught him. Oh, I love it. So yeah, we've been married for almost 35 years.

Wow. And it has been great. We are blissfully happily married. It is true. They really do like each other. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to report, Tammy, that I'm nearly housebroken. It took some doing, and knowing Shawna, she could break you. She's a breaker, for sure- Yeah ... that lady. I've told him just today, "You are so easy to be married to."

Like, he's just so easy to please. Yeah. So it's great. I do believe that, and Jim would say that about Mike. He's just such a good friend. So Jim and Mike have been best friends forever, and that's how I got to know Mike and Shawna. Then I married Jim and immediately became friends with Shawna. Who wouldn't wanna love her?

And they took me in, which was so nice. They were like, "Okay, you can be our friend." Mm-hmm. Mm. And that's always hard when you marry a widow, where you're like, "Are they gonna like me?" So they did. I love you two so much. Oh. So we've known each other for a while. Easy peasy. Mm-hmm. And then here we are. So this is...

And they have three adorable kids. Two are married. One is in high school, and, uh, really great piano players, all three of them. We'll talk about that probably, I'm sure, later on. That comes up, so we'll have more information- Mm-hmm ... about piano playing and how good they are. But really quickly, what do you guys do?

What's your hobbies or career or anything like that? I'm a stay-at-home mom, and my youngest is 16, and it's fabulous. And I do work at the, the Logan Temple laundry, which I really enjoy. It's great to be at the temple every week, and it's amazing what it takes to run a temple. I used to teach seminary in the mornings.

I did early morning seminary for a while. Hello. Yeah. That was awesome. I loved that. That's a hard calling. That's very hard. Those are the... We call you guys the angels. Full-time seminary teachers that get paid, you're the angels. I think I was the only early morning seminary teacher by calling in northern Utah, so- Probably

they thought... I mean, I worked with the full-time guys, and they're like, "You do this for free?" Right? It was wonderful. Yeah. It was really wonderful. I loved doing that. And so anyway. Uh, yeah, I'm a, I'm a nerdy engineer, Tammy. I'm a research professor at Utah State University at the Water Research Laboratory, and I've been in my current position for 28 and a half years.

And, uh, Shawna calls me a, a glorified plumber. I do a lot of stuff with fluid flow. Flow through pipes and pumps and valves and meters and whatever, and, uh, even done some, some work on some large dams, um, spillways of dams. Worked on the Oroville Dam when there was an incident. And so I sometimes can be affectionately called a dam engineer.

And I know more dam jokes than any engineer probably should. But I don't know if we're here to talk about those things, so. That's pretty funny. I guess I, I s- I still love what I do because I come to work. Yeah. And I've been trying to turn Shawna into a sugar mama so I could pick up my golf game again, but yeah, if she had to go to work, it would disrupt her lifestyle.

It's brilliant. I love it. And the- you're... I don't know, I just love how you introduced yourself, and you've been called out for some pretty big deals when it comes to Dan, so he's being modest, but he's very important in that field. So it's, it's pretty cool to hear your stories. So the two of you are gonna be perfect for this episode, and here's why.

They're both scholars. Like, Shawna's very smart, and she's a teacher, and, and both of them together, people can't tackle the Chronicles. Like, it's a tough book. In fact, most people are like, "There's a Book of Chronicles?" 'Cause n- nobody even makes it this far into the Bible. And so here we are, and I have you two, and we're just gonna dive into this book and have some fun with it.

So if you wanna know what my friends look like and you wanna read their bios, you're gonna find those in our show notes, which is at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with, and let's dig into the Book of 2 Chronicles. Okay, here we go. First things first, my question for you is, as you were preparing for this discussion, what did the Holy Ghost teach you?

It... I guess we should take turns here. You go first, Mike. Um, so- Tammy, I made a goal 20 years ago to read the Old Testament, and I did it- Very cool. Awesome ... in one year. I read the Old Testament. And this year, 20 years later, I set a goal to read the Old Testament, and I did it and finished, starting in January, and I finished March 15th.

And so I went through it hard and fast. Yeah, you did. And, uh, something really stood out to me throughout the whole book, but again, it was, uh, manifested here, and that, that is to turn to and seek the Lord. And in 2 Chronicles 20:15- Okay, I'm gonna turn there. Yes. Jahaziel said, "Hearken ye all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord unto you, Be not afraid, nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude."

And this is the part that really hit me with this scripture, "For the battle is not yours, but God's." Why did it hit you? And, well, you know, what is his work and glory? To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. He's got a plan for us, and we are called upon to do his work at times. Mm-hmm. And if we remember that it's his work, we don't have to shoulder the whole burden, and that becomes very important at times as we're serving.

You know, we sometimes might feel way overwhelmed, like, "How do we do this?" But, uh, that scripture hit me and reminded me that, yes, he knows what is needed, and we just need to turn to him, and he can help us with those battles that we face. I have a follow-up question, 'cause I think that is such a great scripture.

I love it, and we get to talk about it more. But you said he can help us when we feel overwhelmed, and I wanna know, Mike, is there a time in your life where you did feel overwhelmed and you thought, "I don't know how I'm gonna do this," and God- Oh ... stepped in and helped you? Many times. Give me one. But one in particular- Oc- occasionally we're called into positions of responsibility in the church, and sometimes we have to do things that are very, very difficult, that affect people's lives, sometimes in adverse ways and sometimes in very positive ways.

And sometimes when we have very, very tough decisions to make that regard people, and those people are not happy with those decisions and they don't like you because of those decisions, you could feel like you wanna crawl under a rock. Mm. And you wonder, "Am I doing the right thing?" If we seek to do God's will, it's always been comforting for me to know that if I'm seeking to do what He would have me do, not what I think sh- should be done, but what He would have me do, it becomes easier to sleep at night.

Mm. Because He's carrying the load. I'm just an instrument. I'm not making the hard decisions. Mm-hmm. He's giving me what I need to make the decision, and I make the decision as His representative. And that made it mul- much easier to, to bear that burden. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I can only imagine. It must have been so difficult.

Can, can you say what calling you had? I have served as bishop of a young single adult ward for- Mm-hmm ... five years. And, uh, after that I had a seven-year break, and then was made the bishop of the conventional ward for five years. Wow. And so been a bishop twice. It really helps give us context for your words then.

It adds even more power to it because I love how you just said, "I'm not... I'm just here. I'm just, I'm doing the work of the Lord." And so- Yeah ... I think you just echoed what every bishop would say. So thank you very much for sharing that, Mike. That was awesome. Of course. Okay, Shawna, what'd the Holy Ghost teach you?

Well, um, right off the bat in chapter 14, you know, there's so much going on. Um, he says in verse 11, "Help us, O Lord our God, for we rest on thee and in thy name we go against this multitude. O Lord, thou art our God. Let no man prevail against thee." And then so they're, they're dev- they're sharing their devotion with...

They're praying and they're sharing their devotion to God. And then in verses 13, 14, and 15, "They carried away very much spoils" at the end of verse 13. At the end of verse 14, um, "They spoiled all the cities, for there was exceeding much spoil in them." And then in verse 15, "They carried away sheep and camels in abundance."

And- It, this is kind of a theme that I noticed throughout. In chapter 15, again in 18, they're gathering all these spoils. It takes them three days to gather all this stuff. They're just, they're gathering animals, and they're doing all these things. And there's so many thousands of soldiers, so much abundance.

These big cities are full of so much wealth that they've conquered. And the thing that kept coming back to me is, were they ever satisfied- Mm-hmm. Mm ... with what the Lord had given them? Like, there's so much surplus, and it reminds me quite a bit of what we have today. You know, we really, we have so much abundance.

We have so much- Wow. Yeah ... available to us, really. At least, you know. And it, it just felt like, what are you doing with those spoils? We already built the Temple of Solomon. We don't need the spoils from Egypt to build anything. We're not ... Why do we need so much? Why do we need that? And I looked at a lot of this as such a dis- it was, um, such a distraction kind of, um- It just seemed like they had so much stuff that they were distracted from what was really, really important, and that I can't help but think was part of the reason why they vacillated- Yeah

so much back and forth through all these books really, 'cause they're just, there's so much in front of them. What, what do I focus on? How do I keep my focus on God when I've got all these distractions? And I think that's a big issue for all of us today. Absolutely. I love your application right there, because as you were talking about that, I thought of this documentary that I watched recently where they talked about this thing called fast fashion, where it is so easy to buy clothes now.

Mm. And because they're so cheap, they've, the, the car- the garment industry has managed to be able to make things so cheap and that you can just immediately get it at, like, hitting something on your phone, and you can order, and boom, it comes to you. And then you get rid of the clothes, 'cause they don't last that long.

And so you're getting really cheap clothes for a really cheap price, and it's just this, this great abundance that we have that you're right, like, we just lose focus of we have so much at our disposal. And I love how you just said- Mm-hmm ... are they ever really satisfied? And it made me think of us, like, are we?

'Cause I think you're right, we lose focus of why we're here, and that's Satan's plan. That's his whole goal, is to get us out of focus and to- Mm-hmm ... make sure we don't focus on God. And so you're right, that happens so many times. In fact, one of the best stories is when Saul takes the spoils of war, and he was told not to.

But he's like, "But we're kinda commanded to, and we're supposed to then offer it as a sacrifice," and you know, they, he got in trouble. Nathan's like, "Yeah, you know you weren't supposed to do that." Like- Yeah ... you, you have enough. Yeah. We don't need more. So that's great. What a good reminder for that. That was good.

I gotta get more. I've gotta get more. Yeah. And it's- More, more, more. Yeah. Mm-hmm. More, more, more, more. Oh, and that meant less, less, less God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that was awesome, Shawna. Thank you. Okay, so that is what the Holy Ghost taught you. That is so cool. We're only one segment in and look how much we've learned.

This is gonna be a fun discussion of this book. So the, what we're gonna do next is we're gonna just talk about what is the Book of Chronicles, and what's the deal with why we have two? We'll do that next.

Segment 2

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Let's turn in our scriptures and everyone go to just the first Book of Chronicles. That's where we wanna be, and I'm gonna give you some fun facts to put in here about this book. Okay, here we are. We're on the first Book of Chronicles, and here are some fun facts that you wanna know about this book. So first of all, what is a chronicle?

It's an account of historical events that's presented in order in which they occurred. Now, this book right here is really interesting because First and Second Chronicles used to be one entire book. It was just the Book of Chronicles. And now if we were to place it in order chronologically of where it should be in the Bible, it should actually be the very last book.

It shouldn't be right here in the middle. So that's an interesting fact. And in fact, in the Tanakh, which is the Hebrew Bible, it is the last book because here's what it is. It's a history. Let's go to 1 Chronicles 1:1. And Mike, what's the very first name it says right there? Adam All right, highlight that name right there, Adam.

It starts with Adam in the Book of Chronicles, and then what's going to happen is the Book of Chronicles will literally be a chronology. We have a whole genealogy right here. In fact, the first book of Chronicles is nothing but genealogy in chapters one through nine, genealogy of all the people in the Bible.

And then in chapters 10 through 29, we're gonna get a history of after Saul dies, then stories about David, which, fun fact also, all the stories about David in the Book of Chronicles are positive. They took out the story of David and Bathsheba killing Uriah. They took the story about David being weak before Saul.

They removed anything bad about David because we just wanna really build up the faith and make the people reading this believe that there's hope for the people. Then you get into 2 Chronicles, and you have a story about Solomon in chapters one through nine. And then in 2 Chronicles 10 through 35, we have stories of all the kings, all the kings we've been studying in 1 and 2 Kings.

Because a lot of people are like, "Well, 1 and 2 Kings is the same as 1 and 2 Chronicles," and it kind of is, but there's just a little twist with the Book of Chronicles because then we get to 2 Chronicles, chapter 36. Let's go there. We started with Adam in 1 Chronicles, chapter one, and look how Chronicles ends.

2 Chronicles, chapter 36. Shawna, will you please read verses 22 and 23? Yes. "Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, 'Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the Lord God of heaven given me.

And he hath charged me to build him a, an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.'" Now, that's a really interesting sentence because it ends in an incomplete sentence. "Who is there among you with all his people? The Lord his God be with him, and let him go up."

And that's all we get, and then it ends right there. And I love that some scholars believe that this was intentional, and the reason why it ends or it's in an incomplete ending is because it's one of hope, saying that here the people are saying, "Okay, you can come now and rebuild your temple, and you can come now, and all of you who were dispersed get to come back in and start to worship your God again."

That's what Cyrus is going to do. And then he does it in the Book of Ezra, right there, Ezra 1:1, "In the first year of Cyrus, king of Persia," that the word of the Lord came to him and saying, "Okay, let everybody come back and rebuild." But we love that it ends right here because really it's a message of hope for the Messiah who will come, and he will return, and he will rebuild the temple, and he will restore the people, just like Cyrus does right here.

And so all of the prophets, so you have Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Songs of Solomon, but then you go Isaiah to Malachi. Those are all the prophets who were speaking to the people during the Book of Kings and Chronicles. So that's why Chronicles would come at the end. But there's this beautiful idea of hope, and I have written at the very back of 2 Chronicles 36, after verse 23, I just put, "Jesus Christ will return, rebuild, and restore."

And so it's kind of like Cyrus is a type of that. And if we had that at the very end of our Bible, how cool would that be a message of hope? Because you have this ending where you're like "Oh, Jesus is gonna come do that." And then you turn the page, and you're in Matthew chapter one, and there's Jesus being born.

Like, I love that. He really does return. And here's a cool quote. Shawna, can you please read it for us? This comes from an article in the Liahona written by President Nelson called The Future of the Church: Preparing the World for the Savior's Second Coming. Listen how cool. You'll find some familiar themes in this quote.

"The Lord will return to the land that He made holy by His mission there in mortality. In triumph, He will come again to Jerusalem in royal robes of red to symbolize His blood, which oozing from every pore, He shall return to the holy city. There and elsewhere, the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. He will govern from two world capitals, one in old Jerusalem and the other in the new Jerusalem, built upon the American continent. From these centers, He will direct the affairs of His church and kingdom.

Another temple will be- yet be built in Jerusalem. From that temple, He shall reign forever as Lord of Lords. Water will issue from under the temple. Waters of the Dead Sea will be healed." Thank you. Now, that was in 2020, and right there, he is giving the same wording that we see, this wording of messianic hope when he says, "Let the Lord God be with him, and let him go up."

That's us. Let us go up to Him. And so we have this book of First and Second Chronicles, which is a book of just absolute hope and faithful worship, and examples of that from the people in the stories that we've already studied in First and Second Kings, and now we just get to go over it again in First and Second Chronicles, but with just a little bit of variation.

There's a little more information in the book of Chronicles, which is why we get to study it. And we don't even know who wrote it or who compiled the historical information. So that's a other interesting thing to know is that books contain several references to sources where the information was derived, but we don't know who the main author is.

So in the next segment, we're gonna dive into Chronicles, and we're gonna first share what we discovered, which is a fun quote from President Maxwell we're gonna share with you next.

Segment 3

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Neal A. Maxwell. This is such a cool quote. Mike, will you read this quote for us, please? Absolutely. "The scriptures offer us so many doctrinal diamonds, and when the light of the Spirit plays upon their several facets, they sparkle with celestial sense and illuminate the path we are to follow." Thank you. I love this quote, especially in light of studying the Book of Chronicles.

And so the three of us went through and we identified one or two doctrinal diamonds that we found as we were just reading and preparing, not even the actual lesson itself, but there's so much in here. So I'd love to know, what were your doctrinal diamonds? Do you guys have one or two you'd like to share?

Absolutely. Yeah. Hit it. Mine is in chapter 15, verse 15. "And all Judah rejoiced at the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and sought him with their whole desire, and he was found of them. And the Lord gave them rest round about." Oh, that's good. Yeah. There's a lot there. I kind of zeroed in on whole desire, and kind of ended up in a bit of a rabbit hole with that.

Oh, talk to me about it. But, um- What do you mean? So I looked up that talk from Elder Maxwell and just read a little into it, and he talked a lot about desires. Our desires profoundly affect our use of moral agency. Um, a desire denotes a real longing or craving, hence righteous desires are much more than passive preferences or fleeting feelings.

So I kind of started thinking, okay, you've got agency and you have moral agency. What's the difference? And then I got thinking, well, we have desires and we have righteous desires, and what's the difference? So what I came up with was a moral compass suggests that there is absolute truth, there's right and wrong, and we believe that.

I ... We believe that. God is the author of all truth, and some things are just absolutely true. We heard that from President Nelson a lot. Our world today that we live in wants to have a lot of gray areas and is very resistant to absolute truth. And I don't say that to ignore mercy, because God is very merciful and he knows everyone's situations.

But he also is the author of all truth. And so going back to a whole desire, I look at these people and their, their whole desire was to stay with God. They wanted so badly to be with God, and at the same time, there were several places in here where they, they would do everything, but they might. They took down all the high places and they took down all this stuff.

All the groves. But they left something up in the groves. They left a window open, and it left room for a desire, or it left room for a problem maybe with, like, their agency is gonna be challenged- Mm-hmm ... later on down the road. Anyway, I just looked at that as what is our whole desire and what do we really want?

What are we gonna do with our relationship with God? How are we gonna get to a good relationship with him and keep a good relationship with him, and how do our desires feed into that? And this kinda comes into play a little bit later for me, but um This is where God gives us rest. This is how he gives us rest, is through our desires.

Our whole desire can bring us rest. I was gonna ask you about that. What do, what do you think that means, he gives us rest? Peace of conscience, peace of mind, peace of heart. I remember in Lectures on Faith when Joseph Smith talked about how can you have faith, and one of the ways is knowing that the path you are on is according to God's will, that your life lines up with God's will for you, and that gives you...

You can have faith in God when you are in that state. Mm-hmm. When I know that what I'm doing is right in God's eyes, I can sleep better. It's like Mike said earlier- I like that ... you can rest at night. When you know you are doing what God's will is for you, when you, when that is your focus is to do his will for you because you trust that he knows what is best, that is when we can have rest.

I think you summed it up perfectly by echoing what Mike said. And when he said it, it was good. But even now coming full circle, I can sleep better. Mm-hmm. That is good. And we all know people who maybe, or ourselves from time to time when we've struggled with what we're doing- Mm-hmm ... we know when our lives are not lined up with what God's will is.

And it's not because he's controlling, it's because he knows what's best. He's a loving parent. He's a father who wants the best for his children. Yeah. And we know when we're lined up with that, so. So good. Wow. Thank you, Shawna. What a great doctrinal diamond. The cool thing about doing this exercise- Mm-hmm

is that there are gonna be... 'Cause Chronicles is so big, but there's all these really great things. You just couldn't even have the time to go through and find all of them. So I love it when people come prepared like you, so thank you, 'cause that, I didn't even have that marked, and I love that verse now. So good.

Okay, Mike, what about you? Give me a doctrinal diamond. Sure. So in, uh, 2 Chronicles 15 again, in verse four, it reads, "But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them." And, uh, this brought to my recollection something that my mother told me. So, uh, put this into context.

My mother, when she was 23, was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. And I remember, uh, she worked on her feet for one of her jobs, and I remember her coming home when I was about eight years old. She had me when she was 18. And I remember her coming home with sore feet and I, and she would say, "Would you just rub my feet?

They would feel better." And so, yeah, I would, I would do that. And, uh, I f- I f- at the time felt bad that her feet hurt. Well, over the course of time, the rheumatoid arthritis really attacked her body. Um, she has as many artificial joints as I think she has real joints. Hmm. And she's dealt with this now for 54 years.

And at one point she told me that... Well, previous to this, at one point she said, "I don't ever wanna be resurrected. I don't want a body. I don't wanna have a body that hurts ever again," you know. And this was years, and years, and years ago before I think, uh, you know, there was a, a full understanding of what the resurrection meant to our bodies.

Um, and I, and now I think she understands that very, very well. But I remember that, and that was a long time ago. And I think, you know, when we, when we struggle with hard things, and some things are trouble to us, not of our own choice, you know? Yeah. S- we l- we have loss, we have health issues, and those are troubling.

Some things we bring upon ourselves. We bring upon us our own trouble. Self-inflicted. Either way, whether the thing just happens because we live in mortality on an unredeemed earth, or whether we make a choice that brings about trouble, if we seek God, He will be found. And my mother told me, and she believes this to this day, that rheumatoid arthritis has been one of the greatest blessings of her life- Wow

because it has brought her to God. And sometimes we look at the things that happen to us, and we think, "Oh, you know, I'm gonna be angry at God. Look what He did to me." And we could very easily be bitter. But I think- If we kind of take in a broader perspective and think about what it is we're here to do and why we're here, that these troubles, the trials, the challenges, the difficulties are part of the plan of mortality.

And some of those things might be the very things that take us to Him, and He's not hiding from us. If we seek, we'll find. But as, you know, Shawna mentioned this earlier, we have to, we have to have that intent to do such a thing. Mike, I love that you said He's not hiding from us. He is not hiding. That completely changes that idea because when you said He was found in them, that same line is in the verse you shared, Shawna.

At the end when they sh- with- when they had h- the whole desire, then it says, "He was found of them." And I was... The whole time I'm like, "What does that mean? What, uh, like what does He want us to know, found of them?" But I love that, like He's not hiding from us. And so because they turned to Him, He was so easy to find, like He was just right there.

And I think sometimes we do think God is unapproachable, and that it's hard to connect with Christ, and, and that we have to have faith so that maybe they're not real, maybe they are. You know? That there's just all this weirdness about it. But I just point blank right there, He's not hiding from us. We just have to...

Right? I just love that. And, and our, and in our trouble. Wow, that was good, the two of you. Thank you. Okay. So yes, carry on. I have a follow-up on that in 2 Chronicles 26. In verse five, this is Uzziah, maybe I pronounced that correctly. Yes, you did And he, Uzziah sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God.

And as long as he sought the Lord, God made him to prosper. This hit me, uh, pretty hard because it reminded me of when I was a teenager trying to make decisions. Am I going to serve a mission, you know, or am I going to go to school and try to get education and go get a job? And I remember reading in the Book of Mormon and in the New Testament about seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added unto you.

And I thought that sounded like a pretty good deal. And I am here to say that when we seek the Lord, he does make us to prosper in more ways than wealth and otherwise. But, you know, uh, uh, happiness, peace of mind, peace of soul. In so many ways, we prosper when we seek the Lord. Yeah. Give me a little bit...

I'd love to know your opinion, both of you, on this idea where it says, um, God made him to prosper. 'Cause you read the word prosper, and immediately you think, "Oh, he was rich, and he got everything he wanted, and life was great for him." What does that word prosper mean to you? Because it's hard to not live in this world and think that's what that meaning of that word is, that he had no problems, and financially he was stable, and he never had a job issue or anything like that.

Talk to me about the word prosper. I'd love to know th- your thoughts, both of you Well, I opened this one, so, uh, I'll start. We can prosper in our efforts to be parents when we have challenges as parents. Um, what we do to try to raise our children in such a way that they embrace the t- the doctrine of Christ, it is a, a time to prosper in that effort.

When we go to work, and, uh, whether our work is in or out of the home, what we do works. Things just work out. It could be very simple things or complex things. I think he simplifies life for us in many ways. There are so many things that could happen that we'll likely be surprised one day to find that they didn't happen because we were putting God first, and I think there are blessings that we don't even realize we're receiving as we seek the Lord and try to do what he would have us do.

I think we're gonna be amazed when we realize how much his hand was in our lives one day, you know, when we, when we can see the big, the whole picture. Um, when I think about prospering, I don't... It's not a, it's not a monetary thing for me. Mm. Um, monetary prospering brings comfort, and that's really a nice, wonderful thing, but prospering in your family life, being happy as a family, being, um, happy in your marriage, being happy in your occupation.

Just knowing God is there, that to me is abundance. If I know that God is there with me, I have all the abundance I need because he's the one that makes everything all right, and- I'm just really grateful for that. I feel like, I feel like my life is prosperous in so many ways. Yeah. I love that you used the word comfort.

I just put in my- Mm ... scriptures where it says prosper, I put equals comfort. 'Cause comfort from the Lord, that's the best kind of prospering in any area of your life. If that's what the word prosper means, I can buy that. That, to me, works. Because He will comfort me in any scenario that I'm in. Um, that's pretty prosperous, so I love that you said that word.

Oh, that was good. Wow, look at those awesome, cool nuggets. That was so good. Those diamonds, oh my gosh. That sparkled. You guys just made 2 Chronicles totally sparkle, so thank you. Thank you for the doctrinal diamonds. Okay, so that is really cool truths that you guys learned. So now let's dive into the storyline, and we're gonna hear some things that are going on.

Because what we talked about at the very beginning when I started this whole episode, and I said, "In desperate moments of need, what do you turn to? What has worked? Is there a specific thing, or is there anything unexpected?" We're gonna get into some stories about some desperate needs these people had, and we're gonna find out what worked.

And we've already kind of done that, which has been so cool. You guys didn't even prepare for that. I love it. You did not know that we were gonna talk about desperate needs and what would work, so way to follow the Spirit. So in the next segment, let's get into the storyline and find out what the desperate moment was that the king of Israel and the king of Judah were experiencing, and what happened and what helped them.

Segment 4

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Let's jump into the storyline. We are in 2 Chronicles, chapter 18, and there is the best story in this chapter. All of these verses tell such a good story, tell a good tale, as they would say. And so I invited Shawna to tell us this story. Now, I told her to use the NIV. I recommend the NIV or the ESV, 'cause it really does help sort out the storyline.

And fun fact, I forgot to tell her to tell the story about the last four verses, but she already knew it. I gave her the wrong reference, so I- It's all good ... was reading ahead, I'm like, "I forgot to give her the punchline, the best part of the whole story." So Shawna, tell us the story in 2 Chronicles 18:1 all the way through 34.

Okay. So you need to know that Jehoshaphat is the king of Judah. Mm-hmm. He is, he worships Jehovah. He's, he's a decent guy. He is extremely wealthy. Um, he is aligned with Ahab through marriage. Ahab is the king of Israel. Now, let me just say for all of our listeners, the kingdom of Israel is the northern kingdom.

Mm-hmm. Kingdom of Judah is the southern kingdom, and as we've, I just keep saying this in every episode, northern kingdom, all bad kings. Not one king was good. Mm. Southern kingdom, we had a few good kings, and Jehoshaphat is one of the good kings. So now you're telling us that northern kingdom and southern kingdom are kind of aligned through marriage, is that right?

So they're, they're related. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I don't know who- It's kind of fun. Yeah. So this is what I have. Jehoshaphat's son, Joram, married Athaliah, who is the daughter of Ahab. So it makes them in-laws. Oh. Mm. So was this a political marriage? I would say yes, 'cause most things like that are. Okay, so- And maybe Jehoshaphat thought he could help Ahab, 'cause you kind of get that sense when you go- Yeah

into chapter 19, where Jehoshaphat is reprimanded for even helping Ahab. So I think there's something to that, Shawna. Yeah, that probably, but they didn't have as good of a marriage as us. No. Wow, you and I- It was not a loving marriage. Anyway, so then you have Ahab. He's the king of Israel. He is the most wicked and powerful king of Israel.

He is married to none other than Jezebel. Her name sounds evil, and she- ... brings Baal and Asherah to the kingdom of Israel. She- She is an example of why all men should be very careful who they marry. Mm-hmm. Because she is not a nice lady. At any rate- She tried to have all the prophets killed. She did Which is mean.

She was brutal. Yep. And- Oh, yeah. She did not like the prophets. Oh, she was bad. Anyway, Ahab asks Jehoshaphat to go to war with him. He wants to go to war, and he... Anyway, so Jehoshaphat says, "Well, yeah, I, I can probably help you out, but can we at least ask the Lord what He thinks?" And so Ahab says, "Well, I got these 400 men.

They're prophets. I'll call them in. Let's see what they think." So he calls them in. They immediately say, "Yeah, go ahead and go to war. You'll be victorious." And Jehoshaphat is not... He doesn't buy any of it. He says, "Hey, is there no longer a prophet of the Lord in Israel?" And in verse seven, Ahab says, "Yeah, there is one, but I hate him 'cause he only prophesies bad things about me.

His name is Micaiah." Don't you love that? I don't like what he has to say to me, so. Yeah. So Jehoshaphat says, "Well, I would like to talk to him." So they call him in. His name is Micaiah. Um, the two kings put on their royal robes, and the servant preps Micaiah by saying, "Okay, all 400 of his prophets said he should go to war and he'll be victorious.

You ought to follow suit." And Micaiah quickly says, "You know what? I'm gonna tell him what the Lord tells me to tell him, but thanks for your advice." And he kinda gets this little, um, sense of humor going, and when King Ahab asks him if they should go to war, Micaiah says, "Yep, attack and you'll be victorious."

But Ahab could see through that in verse 14, and he s- he says, "I know you're being sarcastic. Can you please be serious?" "Je- Jehoshaphat wants to know what you think." So Micaiah says, "You know what? I wouldn't go to war. Send your people home in peace. Just stay here." Well, that makes Ahab mad too. He wasn't happy with either answer.

He didn't like either answer. And he says in verse 17, "Didn't I tell you that he never prophesies anything good about me? I can't stand this guy." But anyway, Micaiah musters up his courage, and he decides he's gonna say a little more, and he said, "Here's the deal. If you... This is what I see happening. If you go to battle, not only will you lose, but you will be killed."

Micaiah goes on, gives him some more details. It's kind of a parable. And he says, "I saw the Lord sitting on His throne with a bunch of spirits. The Lord asks them who would go and entice the king to go to battle, and they talk among themselves. One finally comes forward saying, 'I'll do it.' And when the Lord asked him how he would do it in verse 21, the spirit replies, 'I will be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.'"

And then in verse 22, it says that the Lord has decreed disaster for you. And so he's telling King Ahab all of this, and all it does is make King Ahab mad and he throws Micaiah in prison. Doesn't want to hear it. So Jehoshaphat and Ahab go to war, but Ahab decides, "But I'm going to disguise myself." And it didn't work because, you know, God's with Jehoshaphat.

So Jehoshaphat's all dressed up in his kingly garb, um, but the king that they're going to war against only wants to kill Ahab. He says to his men, "Just go find Ahab. That's the only one I care about. That's it." So they only pursue him, and the first, the first, the soldiers go after Jehoshaphat, and he, he cries out to the Lord, and the Lord protects him.

Well, then the weirdest thing happens. One of these soldiers just somehow, he just draws his bow at random, pulls it, and it goes in between the breastplate and the scale armor of King Ahab. It totally gets him. And he, um, he tries to prop himself up- It's not a small target ... It's tiny. It's like- Uh-huh ... right under the armpit.

In between your... Yeah. It's this, it's between that big breastplate and that side thing. It's just, like, this little teeny place, but it goes straight in. Like, it's deadly. Anyway He tries to prop himself up, and when the sun sets, he dies. Yep. I mean, you're, you can't run away from God. It just is not gonna happen.

There's your story. There's so much going on there. My goodness. Now tell me then, as you're reading this, and Mike, as you're hearing this, what are the life lessons from this story? Why is it important for us to know that this happened between Ahab and Jehoshaphat and the prophet? You know, I got a few things from this.

What'd you get? One of them is the Lord honors agency. Mm-hmm. He's gonna let you choose, and if it brings your destruction, he's still gonna let it happen. And there has to be a clear choice. I think that, I think that Ahab had to have a clear choice. And we can go back. Okay, if you go back to 2 Nephi 2:11-14, and that's the one that talks about an opposition in all things.

There's gotta be a contrast. You cannot make a choice if there are not two options. Yeah. And Ahab had some, he had some options. He had a choice to make, and he did, and he made it. Um, so that was one of the things that really stood out to me was we, we have agency. He's, he's gonna help us, but he's not gonna stop us from destroying ourselves if that's the choice we make.

And then connected to that was, okay, this one lying spirit was powerful enough to deceive 400 men. Yeah. And how many people were deceived by those 400 men? So Satan, he didn't go out and directly kill them physically, but he killed them spiritually. He literally killed these men spiritually. But when you were talking about there's a lot of hope in these chapters, this is, this is kind of where I saw hope in this Satan is hugely powerful.

He is. And it's important that we recognize that we are always susceptible to his deception if we're not careful. However, my use of moral agency is more powerful than Satan's power to deceive. Oh, that's so powerful. I will amen that. And yeah, we, our choices, we- our ability to choose, to follow God- Mm-hmm

to follow his prophets, is more powerful than Satan's ability to deceive us. Yes, it is. And the more... Yes. And the more we follow the prophet, the more we stay with God, the more powerful we are against Satan's deception. Okay, we just have to read this quote. Oh my gosh, I didn't even send you this quote. The fact that you're saying this is so powerful, Shawna.

Will you read this quote? It's from Harold B. Lee, and he said this at a conference report in 1970, and it perfectly mirrors what you just testified. Elder Harold B. Lee said, "You may not like what comes from the authority of the church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views.

It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things as if from the mouth of the Lord himself with patience and faith, the promise is that the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. Yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you and cause the heavens to shake for your good and His name's glory."

I really like that he added with patience and faith. That's the key. I think Ahab's life could have spared if he had a little more patience with the words of Micaiah, and a lot more faith. But he's like, "That prophet doesn't say anything good towards me." Don't you love that? Yes. I don't like what he had to say, 'cause that doesn't help me.

And, and here's Jehoshaphat like, "Well, let's inquire of the Lord, 'cause he might know something." And he did- Mm-hmm ... indeed know something, so. Oh, yeah. Yeah. A little more patience, a little more faith. It all works out, but it's not comfortable, that's for sure. I mean, we saw that in this story, and it didn't work out for Ahab at all.

So well done. Well told, Shawna. Thank you. Great story. Mike, jump in. Anything you want to add? Yes. Um, this has been said by prophets in the past, and popular opinion is not the arbiter of truth. Oh. Oh, please. You have- Let's write that- Think of it ... at the top of our page ... one in 400, you know? Or w- 400 say do this, and one says something else.

You know, that'd be pretty tough if, you know ... A- and we find ourselves in those situations where, hey, public or popular opinion would lead us to do something that everybody may applaud, and that very thing may be exactly contrary to the teachings of our leaders, of our savior, contrary to God's command.

But so many people say, "Oh, yeah, you should do this." Mm-hmm. But one had the truth. And- Wow ... that's important that we seek the voice of truth, because popular opinion is not necessarily truth. That is powerful. No, it was President Nelson that said that. Well, and a lot of people read this and they're like, "But why would there be 400 prophets that would lie?"

And there is a lot of debate about who these prophets were. Some scholars think these are the prophets of Baal, the false god that the people in the northern kingdom are literally worshiping. And so they are turning to them because that is right there. That is the popular opinion of the time, is that what do the, the prophets of Baal have to say?

And isn't it interesting, the wording in verse 22? We love the Joseph Smith translation, 'cause in verse 22 says, "Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put in lying spirit," but it's not the word put. The s- Joseph Smith translation is, "The Lord hath found a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee."

And so how did they get to that point, right? To the point where then one lying spirit led 400 prophets to lie, which led an entire kingdom to fall. Like, a king will die, so. Yeah. Heartbreak ahead. And see, this goes back to how distracted these people were. Yes. There were so, so many distractions all around them.

Ahab had- Because they were prospering- Yes ... in the way they thought they should. They thought that that was- They had everything at their disposal, yes. There was so much abundance- Mm-hmm ... but they had abundance of all the wrong things Very cool. I love how that comes back full circle. Oh, that's good, Shawna Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Very cool great lessons there so with all of this talk about a prophet I'm just curious for either one of you has there been a time where you turned to God and his prophets and how did that turn out? And if you have one, great. If you don't, that's fine I do. Um, and I've hesitated a little bit. It's quite personal, but, um, you know, I don't, I have not really in my life distinguished between following God and following the prophet.

One is the same. They're the same. Right. If I follow the prophet, I'm following God. If I'm following God, I'm gonna follow the prophet. And there was a, there was a period of time earlier in our marriage that was really, really hard, and it wasn't because we were making bad decisions. It was just mortality.

We, um, there was about a 10-year period, we lost three children in a row. It was really hard. My father had died. He, um, he died young. He was actually Mi- Mike's age when he died, and There was a lot of hard things with that, with my, for my family. There was just a lot of tough things. And then we lose these babies, and I've had, I've borne children in all the trimesters.

And for some people it might have been not as difficult, but it nearly destroyed me physically, spiritually. It was so painful. And I tried my best to hold things together to be a functional, good mother. My kids don't really re- I've asked them, and they don't really remember me being a problem, and I'm really grateful for that.

But that was a dark, dark time. I, I, um, I could not feel God in my life. Like intellectually, I knew he was there, and I did not, I couldn't feel him. I went, I mean, I went through a period of pretty severe clinical depression. It was just painful. The whole, it was just this long road of pain. It was just painful, and Mike can attest to all of this 'cause he lived it with me.

And it was hard for him, too. And I decided, I was, this is, I just, I poured myself into the gospel. I, um, I read my scriptures every day. I read every Ensign. I fulfilled my calling the best I could. I took two institute classes a semester. I poured myself into all of it. Mike served as a bishop part of it. He was in a bishopric, and then he was called as a bishop during this time.

I was a Relief Society president. I remember one day I had so many things to do. I had so many people I had to go take care of, and I felt so awful. And I said to myself, "Okay, I'm going to not think about this. I'm gonna go take care of them, and when I get home, I'm gonna feel bad. I'm gonna allow myself to feel bad."

And so many times I would go do that, and I would come home, and after helping all these people, I didn't feel bad anymore. Mm-hmm. But it kinda went on, and it ebbed and flowed, and there were peaks and valleys and Finally, um, I was trying to get my bearings back, but I wasn't completely. I, I ha- I went through that very much anger with God.

I was angry with God, but I didn't leave Him. I knew, somehow I knew that Even though I couldn't feel him, I knew I needed to stay with this. Anyway, I remember one particularly rough day, and I was here alone at home, and the s- the, okay, the fridge, the silence of the fridge was deafening to me. Hmm. If, I don't know, for somebody that might make sense, it was deafening to me.

I was-- And I remember standing in front of the mirror and saying I am going to stay with God and I'm gonna keep going with this because that is who I am and that is what I am about. So back off. And I literally, like I said that verbally. And as it turns out, um, not soon after that, um, I got released from being Relief Society president.

We sold our trampoline. We bought a motorcycle that we could cruise the streets with. And all of a sudden I find out that I'm pregnant again. Kind of freaked me out, 'cause I didn't need to go through that again and lose another child. We were told we couldn't have any more. But, um, God healed me. Mm. He absolutely took what was so painful for me and so hard on me, and so hard on our family.

I mean, I remember after one baby that died, my older son, he was just five, and he came and pulled on my stomach and wanted to know where the baby was. And that was so hard, and that hurt me so bad 'cause I couldn't fix that. And anyway, the Lord fixed that. And I don't know that if He could have done that if I hadn't stuck with Him.

Wow. I had to stick with Him. Yeah. And I, I, it gave a new meaning to the term endure to the end. And s- anyway, I don't That, that just was really, really hard for me and, but I can look back now and it's given me more empathy. I have a lot more understanding for people. You know, if everything goes good in your life- Yeah

you're no use to anybody. How can you help anybody? Anyway, so- Mm ... the Lord took care of me on that. And I think what he said was, "Okay, I'm gonna take care of this for you. I'm gonna fix this for you. But the next time something really rough comes along, you gotta handle it." And so now I'm in a different place, and there's other rough things that we're dealing with, and they're really painful, in some ways even harder.

But I know that I can do it. Yeah. Because I know that God's there with me. And if I hadn't been through the one, I wouldn't know this. Shawna, I love so much that you just shared your desperate moment, and what a unique answer through your audible declaration of truth. Like, that was what worked for you, to audibly declare- Mm-hmm

where you stand and what you're all about. I mean, it goes back to your thing you shared about your whole desire was to him, and that you were found of him. But it came after a long battle. And then again, going back to the ... And then you prospered. You got comfort. Wow, what a great story. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Do you have one, Mike? Yeah, so a, a difficult time, uh, for me when I turned to God, and this is probably fairly common amongst many. I think at some point or another, everybody gets to face difficulty at various times in life. Well, mine hit me as a missionary. And I don't know that before I left on my mission, I don't know that I was fully converted to the Lord.

I think I felt like I was. I felt like that was the right thing to do, and so I went on a mission, felt good about it. Best six months of my life. Followed by 18 months of, "Oh, my, what did I do?" And here's how, here's how it started. Um, things were going really well. I, you know, I'd been trained, and then I got a companion who had been out for over a year.

Uh, my trainer had been out for three months, uh, before he got me, or two months, whatever it was, it was short, and, uh, he did a great job. But this, this other missionary, he was experienced, and he helped us to, you know, get our area moving well. Things were going good. Hey, we're doing great. Things are awesome.

And goofy me... By the way, many, there are some of us that are hard-headed, and it takes a minute to get things into our heads. Silly me prayed for more faith. I'm here to tell you, don't do that. Because- Yeah, don't pray for that or humility. Yes. And so I thought, "Yeah, this would be great. I'll pray for more faith, and God will give me a vision.

Maybe we'll see an angel. We'll have masses of people join the church." Well, it wasn't a m- matter of days after me and my, uh, goofy request, and all of a sudden I start doubting the, even the very existence of God. Mm. And what I thought I had of a, out of a testimony completely disintegrated. And I was like, "What in the world is going on here?

This is, this is not, this is not what missionaries do. They don't doubt." You know, whether you're a missionary or not, you know, we don't doubt, we don't, you know, this is, this is not supposed to be happening. I remember it getting so bad, I mean, I would look at churches as a missionary and think, "Why are there churches?"

'Cause me and my little scientific brain had to understand before I could believe, and I could not understand certain things, you know? For example, if someone were to ask me at that time, "Well, prove where God is," that question blew my mind. Or, "Prove that he is." Well, prove that he isn't, you know? It's like, you know, it's one of these things that, that, uh, I didn't, I didn't understand, and I just had always just assumed that there was a God and he was there.

But then I couldn't figure out how he was there, and therefore it eroded my, what I thought I have a testimony. And it was a crazy time, but I, I realized one thing. I think, I, I think I always knew that he was there, but I didn't feel it. And it dawned on me that if I am going to come to know God, I'm going to have to do it on his terms and not mine.

Hmm. And so I decided that I was going to be the most obedient missionary. I was going to be the most dedicated missionary, and I remember a quote from, I think it's Elder, uh, President McKay, "Whate'er thou art, act well thy part." And I was going to be the best missionary I could be even though I didn't feel inside that I was.

I felt like I was putting on a, a front, you know, because it was just, it was hard. You, y- when you don't feel things, you don't feel things. Yeah. And, uh, after a while, I realized that when I prayed for more faith, that prayer

was answered In a way that was more powerful than seeing an angel or having phenomenal manifestations of anything, because it required me to do something that I didn't feel like doing. I had to be obedient. I said my prayers. I kept the rules. I worked really, really, really hard. And over the course of time, it re- I realized that he answered the prayer that I asked for exactly the way I needed it to be answered, not the way I want it to, to be answered.

And that has been a foundation for me that has, uh, just been incredible. And I learned, and, uh, this was said in one Sunday school lesson in Gospel Essentials when we were there in Chevy Chase, Maryland. One of the teachers said, "You know, ducks eat grass and grow feathers. I don't know how it's done, but it's happening right before my eyes.

And in like, in a like manner, we do not have to understand everything to believe." This is what faith is. I finally learned and understood what faith was. It's not a perfect knowledge. I mean, I'd read it 100 times. It's not a perfect knowledge. Yeah. And that, uh, for me, was one of the greatest blessings of the time, to have a prayer answered, not in the way that I wanted it answered, but the way that I needed it answered, and it's made a huge difference.

He's there. I don't know how, I don't know everything, but I, but I know that he is. Wow. Thank you. Thank you to both of you for sharing your moment where you turned to God, and it worked out. What great examples, especially in your desperate moments, so thank you. Thank you, and for the spirit that we felt when you told your stories.

So let's... in the next segment then, we're gonna talk about another desperate moment, and we're gonna find out what these people did and what direction they turned to get some help. We'll do that next.

Segment 5

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Here's our desperate moment. Let's go to 2 Chronicles chapter 20. In chapter 20, what we've got in verses one and two is we have Jehoshaphat and he is going to battle. So we have a war, and these people are very worried about this war, and Jehoshaphat is the leader, and the people are terrified. They don't wanna go to war.

And so let's look in verse three and four and read what they did. And so Shawna, can you read verses three and four, please? Yes. "And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the Lord, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah. And Judah gathered themselves together to ask help of the Lord. Even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the Lord."

Okay, so in verse three they fasted. In verse four they asked for help at the house of the Lord. They went to the temple. That's the next thing. And they went as a whole families. Everyone's there together. And then I asked Mike to please share with us these great verses because he's gonna teach us verses six through 12.

Mike, what exactly was said in this moment? Hey. Well, this is great. No, I first all, I had to find out, well, w- wh- why are they going to war? What's all this war about, you know? Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot of war. And, uh, you know, I, I learned that the children of Moab and the Ammonites were descendants of Lot by his daughters.

Yes. And so rivals. They attack for who knows whatever reasons. Maybe it was to expand their territory, whatever. Resentment, political opportunity, whatever those things were. And so th- this, uh, was serious, and the people knew it. And so what do they do? They turn to prayer. They turn to God. And in verse six, this is Jehoshaphat, "And said, 'Oh Lord, God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven, and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen?

And in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?'" In this verse, he recognizes the majesty of our Father in heaven. He has rule over everything. He has all power and might, and there is none able to resist Him. And then in verse seven, "Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend forever."

He had done amazing works for the, the seed of Abraham, who was his friend, whom, with whom he made a covenant. And in verse eight, "And they dwelt therein, and have built thee a sanctuary therein for thy name saying." So they've honored Him. They built a sanctuary for worship. Mm-hmm. And in verse nine, "If when evil come upon, cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence; for thy name is in this house, and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help."

As we turn to the Lord, to God, and cry for His help in our afflictions, in our troubles, we are heard and helped And in verse ten, "And now behold the children of Ammon and Moab and Mount Seir, whom thou wouldst not let Israel invade when they came out of the land of Egypt, but they turned from them and destroyed them not."

So, you know, in the past, we had a chance to destroy these people, but we were not able to do that, and we could have. And now in verse eleven, "Behold, I say, how they reward us! They come to cast us out of thy possession which thou hast given us to inherit." Now these groups come in to remove us from thee and from the land that was given to us by thee.

What are we gonna do? Well, verse twelve, "O our God, wilt thou not judge them? For we have no might against this great company that cometh against us, neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee." Please consider these groups and, and us, and see that we are helpless to know what-- uh, we don't know what to do, but we look to thee for help.

Completely turned to God and trusted in Him For help Mm-hmm. What did you make of verse 13 when it says, "And they did this with their little ones, their wives, and their children"? I think it demonstrated the magnitude of the seriousness of the situation. Yeah. "Hey, we are either going to be completely annihilated and destroyed because these armies are so great Uh, we need everybody to understand that without God intervening, we're done.

Everyone, everyone needs to participate in this effort. Yeah, I think sometimes so often we, we don't en- engage our kids in serious matters where it comes to fasting and prayer, um, 'cause we're worried it might scare them, the situation. But I love this opportunity right here for us to just, if we need anyone's prayers, we need kids' prayers.

Mm-hmm. Let's let them fast. Let's let them pray. Let's tell them the storyline of what's going on. This is why we're fasting for Brother Johnson or whoever it is in our ward, and those are some of my favorite moments in my family when my little kids are like, "We're gonna fast." And you know, they give up one meal, and that's all they could do.

You know what? I think God's like, "That's great. Thank you for your one-meal effort." He loves that, and I, I love this verse, like the whole everybody's joining together in these prayers, and the power of that then comes in verse 15 that you shared with us, Mike, so I'm gonna let you read it again. Will you read verse 15 and then skip to verse 17?

Sure. "And he said, Hearken ye, all Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem, and thou king Jehoshaphat, Thus saith the Lord unto you, Be not afraid nor dismayed by reason of this great multitude; for the battle is not yours, but God's." And in verse 17: "Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you.

O Judah and Jerusalem, fear not nor be dismayed: tomorrow go out against them, for the Lord will be with you." Perfect. I just think those verses are powerful. He's giving them chances 'cause in this storyline right here, northern kingdom has not been taken into captivity yet. They're still being warned. And so don't you love that?

Like Judah and Jerusalem, come on. Get it together. I can help you. But it's just the, the wording, again, going back to what you shared at the beginning, the battle is not yours but God's. And your stories in the last segment perfectly exemplify how the Lord spoke to you by saying, "Listen, I got you. I'm gonna help you through this."

Like, you felt like it was your personal battle, and it absolutely was your personal battle, and then God steps in and He comforts Shawna. He prospers Shawna in her moment. And then I love, Mike, so much the things you wrote where you had to act to get more faith. Literally, faith without works is dead. Your story was a perfect example of that.

And so the battle really is God's. And then go to verse 17 and give me the action words in verse 17 that the Lord is saying to us today for our times of trouble or for our moments when we're just in absolute other des- desperate moments. Fear not. Great. Nor be dismayed. Good. Tomorrow go out against them For the Lord will be with you Shawna, go to the beginning.

What are the action words? Set yourselves stand ye still. Like, decide where you're gonna be, and then be there. Stand still and, you know, make a decision and s- go with it. Yeah. That's what I get from that. And then we have see. See the salvation of the Lord. All of that in one verse. Mm-hmm. So many action words.

And both of your stories in the last segment required action. Isn't that awesome? That both of you did work and you saw the salvation of the Lord. So right there we have this great story. This is the battle. It is not yours, it is God's battle, and he is serious about that in all of these comments and all of these things he's saying.

And then we love verse 20, which in the next segment we're gonna talk about because there's another desperate moment, and this is probably one of the most expected things that worked for the children of Israel. We'll tell you what it is next

Segment 6

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We're still in chapter 20, and we get to read verses 20 through 22. We'll each take a verse, and we'll go Shawna, Mike, and then me. Let's read and find out what worked. Go ahead. "And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."

"And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the Lord, and that should praise the beauty of holiness as they went out before the army, and to say, 'Praise the Lord for his mercy endureth forever.'" "And when they began to sing and to praise, the Lord set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, which were come against Judah, and they were smitten."

Okay, what did the Lord use that's really unexpected there for the people? Music. Yes. Singing. There's a great cross-reference next to those verses. Put 2 Chronicles 15:14. Here's another reference where the Lord uses music. In this one we have a prophecy and it says, "And they swear unto the Lord with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with coronets."

Like, just so much praise all through music. Now, this is very cool, and I did, I just thought God knows his guests. He totally does because music plays a very important role in the life of the Johnsons. And I wanna know really quickly, tell me about music in your life, and then talk to me about maybe what your favorite song is in your times of war.

What, what role has music played in your life, you two? It's probably played more in my life than Mike's. Okay. Possibly. 'Cause I grew up around music. We all learned to play the piano. I learned a couple of extra instruments. We'd sing, I sung in the Messiah. What instruments can you play besides piano? I didn't know that.

Well, they're in remission. I played the flute and the violin. Very cool. Yeah. And then I sing in a choir right now. Um, it's kind of a cool choir. Our director used to lead the Tabernacle Choir. Okay. So it's really awesome to sing with a full orchestra, and I can go to rehearsals and come back a new person- Wow

from that. Just it feels, it is so awesome to be able to just sing. This, this whole idea of singing praises, it's an, it's ... I love that. Oh, I love how you said you can come back a new person. Yeah. Very cool. And all of your kids played an instrument. Mike, what was it like- Yeah ... growing up in a house of lots of piano...

And let me just tell everybody, 'cause they, these two are being very modest. When I say their kids play the piano, they play the piano. Like, incredible piano pieces, and they'll memorize them. And they'll sit down, and whenever we're with the Johnsons, guaranteed the Halls are gonna say, "Play for us something," whoever is home, whichever kid is there.

And they will play these incredible 15-minute pieces. Like, this is, they're not just playing something out of the, you know, Sham book, which is one of my favorite. Um, yeah. They're really great piano players. What was it like, Mike, growing up in a house where there's a lot of piano practicing? Well, so, um, I, I'll go, I'll step backward just for a, a minute.

So I'm not completely m- musically illiterate. Mostly I sing monotone. Great. But I do try to sing. I do try to sing. But I actually played in the orchestra for a year growing up, and I picked the most, uh, the easiest instrument to cart home on the bus. The bass. Harmonica? Oh. Yeah, the bass. The bass. So after a year of, uh, you know, being in the orchestra, and I actually did pretty well at it, um, the, uh, teacher decided that, you know, because you don't practice, your grade suffers.

And I, well, I showed him. I quit. And at that time I wished I would've picked up another instrument, like the guitar. My grandfather, uh, self-taught, played phenomenally with the guitar. Shawna, by the way, got me a guitar when I was 29, 30. Anyway, so for the last 30 or so years I've been tinkering around on the guitar, and I play like a, a dam engineer.

I, if I mess up, it's over. You shut the, shut the sound off, close the curtains. But music was, uh, you know, one of those things growing up for me that I wasn't pressured with music, and, uh, we've only applied enough pressure to our children to motivate them. It's like, uh, they were always told, "Hey, if, uh, you can find something better to replace it with, you can stop."

And, uh, there, but the something better to replace it with wasn't the television. It wasn't the game system. It was usually something like, well, I've got a garden that needs weeding, and I've got chores, and I've got this and that. None of the kids ever took us up on that as far as, you know, something better to replace it.

But the one thing that's been really good is Shawna is so musically inclined. She's so helpful to the kids. You know, she can hear something and say, "Something not quite right." And what it'll be is Luke can play chords that, uh, are like, um, four on each hand or five on each hand, I mean massive chords with both hands going, and Shawna can pick out a note that's a half step off.

Hmm. "Something's not right there," or, "The timing's not right." But it's, uh, always been a bright experience to, to listen to good music for me. You know, it's uplifting, it's powerful. Um, it's beautiful. And oftentimes if I can't hear anything worthwhile, one of my favorite stations is the off button on the radio, because-

if it's not good quality stuff and it doesn't bring peace or happiness, silence is better. So uplifting music is very powerful to me. Why do you think the Lord uses music? Why do you think He likes His people to sing and to praise and all of those things in Him, in His name? I think it's a form of worship, you know?

It is definitely a form of worship, and this is what I take it as. You know, I try to sing every hymn. Everything that we sing on Sunday, I try to sing. And, uh, there are those who sit back with their f- arms folded, basically with a scowl on their mouth, on their face, not trying to sing the music. But this is a form of worship, and I think even if we can't sing very well, we at least ought to try because we are there to worship and make that effort.

And I think because of that, we're blessed. I think the Spirit can touch our lives, and we are blessed through that, through that gift of, of music Hey, I just have to say, so this keeps reminding me, in ch- in the 25th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, to Emma Smith, verse 12, "My soul delighteth in the song of the heart.

Yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me." And it doesn't say, "My soul delighteth in the song of perfect pitch- Mm-hmm ... or exact, everything's perfect." It's the song of the heart. Mm-hmm. These things are. And if you go back to these scriptures and they're singing these songs, it stirs their soul. It brings them to God.

Yeah. Beautiful music will be in heaven like crazy. That's when I get to be in the really big choir. Yeah. I won't, I won't have aged out. I will get to actually be in that choir. Exactly. It's gonna be fabulous. But music can lift your soul. You never watch a movie without music. Right. It can make you scared.

It can make you happy. Music is so powerful. I can see why in these scriptures they used music to, to get the people to go and get the people to do things because there's nothing like music to l- to, it, it affects your heart. It, it affects your soul. And I have to say, Mike's voice, even if it's not on pitch, is so beautiful.

I love hearing his voice. Mm. And he's so good to sing. Even though he can't hear the pitch, it's okay. His heart is in the right place. See, he sings the song of the heart- Oh, he's singing it- ... every Sunday ... for sure. He sings it every Sunday. It's great. So let me ask you this. Do either one of you have a desperate moments song, a go-to, maybe during times of war, like a spiritual war, whatever you're going through?

What's a desperate moments hymn for you, or song? I like Come, Come, Ye Saints. Mm-hmm. That's a wonderful hymn. There's, like, a great message there, and also because I have great-great-great-grand, third great-grandparents who came across the plains with the Martin Handcart Company. And I hear this song, and I think about them.

And- Okay ... the fact that they could do this, I can do this. And it's probably a lot easier for me than it was for them. And it also says in this song, "God will never us forsake." Yeah. Excellent song. I love that one. What about you, Shawna? I have so many favorite hymns. It's a real problem. I love Redeemer of Israel.

The, Elder Bednar and I, we both love it, Redeemer of Israel. I love, um, Praise to the Man, Amazing Grace. I love that hymn. I was so glad that they added that to the new hymnbook. And There's just so many. Oh, My Father. I love Oh, My Father. Mm-hmm. It talks about a heavenly mother. I love that song. There's so... I, I can't say I have a favorite, 'cause I love all the songs we sing at church.

Oh, that's good. Yes. I, I love the new hymns that we've added, and my favorite one right now is, um, It Is Well With My Soul. Like, I- Oh. I can't... Every time we sing it in sacrament, I bawl my eyes out. Yes. Yes. Oh, so good. Okay, I didn't think of that. That could eas- that's a good favorite. I think that's my desperate moment song right now.

Mm-hmm. Love it so... Well, thank you, both of you. Thank you. We're done. That's the end of our discussion. Wow. Okay, so just gather your thoughts now and look at all your notes that you've taken and just share with us. Oh, man. Oh, by the way, I'm gonna ask everybody this week on Instagram and Facebook to share what their desperate moment song is.

I'd love to know what other people love, their hymns. So gather your thoughts, and what eternal truth did you learn? What is a takeaway from our discussion today? And you have a minute, so just gather. It's just a quick little sentence, and I've got lots of things that I marked. Um, I'm just gonna say the Lord's not going to abandon us.

Yeah. We, we just, we stick with Him. We stay with Him. Um, He's, He's in it for the long haul with us, and He'll help us. Perfect. Don't quit at the finish line. That's right. And I will say that if we turn to and seek the Lord, we will find Him. In fact Uh, this is probably the hardest thing for many. They want to have Him found without seeking.

He's never manifested Himself to me. Prove to me that He's there, and then I'll do something. You know, they've got this whole idea backwards. Mm-hmm. We seek, and then He will be found. And if it were the other way around, it would probably destroy our agency. Yeah. If we were ... You know, the, our, our heavenly Father is so merciful.

He gives us every benefit of the doubt. And if we had a perfect knowledge of Him, how could we have agency? There would be no agency. And one misplaced thought would condemn us forever because we have a perfect knowledge. So this is where, for me, faith is so huge. Faith is such a merciful concept. Yeah, it is.

It allows me to make some mistakes- I like that ... and also to be healed from those mistakes through Christ. That's a great point. Faith is a merciful concept. That's very cool. Wow, you both, you both taught me so much from our discussion today, and I just have to go back to 2 Chronicles 15, and I'm grateful that you brought that up because we didn't even really get to study it today.

And this idea, I mean, because what I loved about what you shared in 2 Chronicles 15, and then you shared your own personal stories, it all came full circle. This idea that He's not hiding from us, and both of you in your times of trouble, He was found in you because you acted. Both of you, your stories were perfect examples of how you ha- you absolutely put your trust in Him, your whole heart, your whole desire, and you acted on your time of trouble, and then you found Him and He found you, and I just, I thought it was such a cool moment.

And then this idea where you w- you prospered. You both prospered in your moment of absolute trouble and, m- 'cause we talked about what that word means, and, and your stories perfectly exemplified that. So thank you so much for sharing 2 Chronicles 15. I'm just putting you both in the same group 'cause you taught us about the word trouble and prospered and being comforted, and it was just an awesome discussion, and your stories perfectly testified of that.

So thanks, you two. We're done. I love you both. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah. We love you. Well, what eternal truth did you learn from the Book of Chronicles? That was a great discussion today. Who knew Chronicles could be so awesome? Join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram and share what you've learned.

And then we also ask a question that goes with this discussion. I wanna know what is your desperate moment song? What song is your go-to when times are tough? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.

And go there anyway because it's where we have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our fabulous study group participants were Shawna and Mike Johnson.

And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember, you are God's favorite.