The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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Segment 1
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Life lessons from the Book of Job. Now listen, we're not even sure who wrote the book. In fact, the Book of Job has been called a philosophical romance, and it has received a lot of criticism and debate over its authenticity. Like, is the story really true? It's considered to be part of the poetry books in the Old Testament, and fun fact, some scholars think it might even be the earliest book ever written in the Old Testament.
So what can 42 chapters, 1,070 verses, and 10,102 words teach us about Jesus Christ? Well, today we get to begin our week-long study of Job and discuss life lessons that are contained in what we believe to be a true, inspired, and a poetic book. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together.
I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my long-time listening friend, Lyra Hosford from San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Lyra. I loved meeting you.
Thanks for saying hi. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different. And today we have one of my favorite guests because he always brings so much to the table. He is a seminary and institute teacher, and he's also an author.
I'd like to welcome John Fossum. Hello, John. Hello, Tammy. Thanks for having me on. Yay. So excited. Okay, John, uh, just I already said you're a seminary and institute teacher, which is super exciting. Any other fun facts about you? Oh, fun facts. Uh, my wife and I never miss Friday night date night, which is a movie and dinner Okay, that's actually true.
And I love all things chocolate. I'm a chocoholic. How about that? Well, I, I love this so much, 'cause when I asked John to be on the podcast and I told him it was Friday, he was like, "Well, what time? 'Cause I have Friday night date night." And I was laughing, 'cause I'm like, "Well, that's so sweet." I mean, he doesn't really mean that.
Oh, you do. We do. Never miss. We, we, we have never... We haven't missed, I don't know, d- it's been decades, truly. Wow. So we had to work him in. We're recording in the morning. We had time for date night. Yeah. I'm so glad you had me on. Thanks, Tammy. Oh, I always love having you on, because you bring such insight.
Like I have, I told John but I, so everyone listening knows, I have all of my scripture markers, a pen, a red pencil, my scriptures, everything. Because every time John is on, I learn so much from him. So he's gonna help us teach the Book of Job. And here's a fun fact about Job that I didn't know until John got on.
But John, 'cause again, God is so good, he knows who to have on. Tell us, will you tell the audience what you told me about Job? Yeah. Uh, when, when you originally reached out and asked if I would, uh, come on with you on this episode and said it was the Book of Job, I just got super excited, because I've had sacred experiences with this book, and I'm excited to hopefully try to convey the essence of those experiences with those that are listening today.
Uh, I trust that those experiences were given to me so that we can come together today. And like you said, you know, this, i- if, if this episode can help one person- Mm-hmm ... uh, come closer to the Savior and strengthen their connection with God, then all of our time here will have been worth it. So yeah. Wow.
Absolutely. Well, thank you. So that right there intrigues me. I'm so excited for this discussion. And another little fun fact about John, I did say he's an author, and he is. He has a very good book. He also has another one coming out- I do ... probably this year or next year, right? It's looking like ear- ear- earlier next year maybe. But we'll never, miracles happen. Maybe this year. Well, give us the premise for the book, 'cause I think this is really cool. Yeah. The premise, so the title of the book is It's Okay Not to Know- And, uh, w- as you know, we, we are very much a part of a culture of certainty. Mm. We say, "I know" in this church quite a bit about quite a lot of things.
And so, um, this book is an invitation to reframe our testimonies in the language of belief. So instead of I know, maybe reframing our testimony, our beliefs into a language like, I believe because. Mm. And what this does is it shifts our focus from just declaring what we believe, and it forces us to start thinking about why we believe it.
Mm-hmm. And the longer I live and do this job as a religious educator, I'm, I'm realizing that there is a dearth of lived experiences out there. We, we, we live off of borrowed light a lot. Mm. And, uh, off, whether it be the testimony of prophets or apostles or parents or teachers, but there comes a time, we all know this, in our lives where we have to find our own why.
And so this book ultimately is intended to help us identify why we believe what we believe. And if we realize we don't have much lived experience, it's an invitation to experiment on the word of God and find our why. Wow. That's gonna be awesome. Yeah, we're excited. Oh, I can't wait. Okay, so good. All right, there you go, everybody.
This is who our guest is. We are so excited to have him. So thank you for saying yes, and we're gonna just have some fun with the Book of Job today. Let's do it. So if you wanna know more about my friend, John, go check out his bio, which are in our show notes, and you can find those at elliesliving.com/sundayonmonday.
So grab your scriptures and let's do this. Let's dig into the Book of Job. Okay, first things first, John, just tell us, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were preparing for this discussion? Oh, man. Every time... I want you to know this. Every time I go through the story of Job, I find another gem. It's just one of those books for me, for some reason, and I'll get in later into the episode sort of, uh, some things that have happened to me related to the Book of Job.
But here are five broad things that just come to my mind immediately, okay? Okay. And this is just sort of an overarching view of Job for me. The Book of Job always helps me see, one, trials are not always evidence of wickedness. Now, we know that trials can be evidence of our wickedness, right? We can, we can create trials for ourselves by our poor choices.
But Job teaches us that there are trials that we experience in life that are not always evidence of wickedness. Two- Mm-hmm ... God is aware of our trials. Three, God has power over all things. Four, God knows how much we can handle. And five, God allows us to have trials so that we can grow. So you can see a theme there, right?
About, uh, sort of, sort of, a, the purpose of trials, the purpose of hardship. So in some ways, you alluded to this in the introduction that, uh, this Book of Job, which is poetic and very hyperbolic, I mean it's very- Yeah ... exaggerative, right? The Book of Job, I think, does a really good job of illustrating this reality and this, uh, God's purposes in getting us down here on Earth to understand light and dark, joy and sorrow, comfort and pain, peace and stress, to experience for ourselves the full spectrum of these opposite realities that exist in the universe.
And so that's sort of the overarching thing I get. Mm-hmm. Uh, if, if I dig just a little deeper, but not too deep, we sometimes wanna ask why when life is hard But I mean, we know the answer to that question. We really do. I mean, doctrinally, we know why. We, we came here to learn to discern for ourselves all of these things, the difference between good and evil, and I can't l- discern good without experiencing the evil.
I can't discern- Right ... comfort without that discomfort. And so when we understand that why, we begin to focus less on why bad things are happening, and those things begin to transform into knowledge and expansion and growth because they're framed within, you know, this accurate view of life. Can I just give a quick anecdote?
Yeah. Last night I was teaching a gr- a, a group full of, uh, a room full of, uh, y- single adults. And this girl asked, "Well, w- what do you do when you're doing everything right," this is literally her question, "you're doing everything right in life and things still aren't turning out the way you want?" Do you see what the implication is there in terms of- Mm-hmm
what her subconscious belief of life is? Oh, totally. She, she's believing, right, and I think this is a common thing, Tammy, I think you'll agree, right? Oh, yeah. You've seen this. People think, "Well, hold on, God said if I follow his commandments, everyth- I will prosper in the land", right? Which means I'll get what I want, life will be amazing.
Mm-hmm. But I'm doing everything he asked me to do and life is still hard. But that's the whole point of life, is that it's difficult, right? Christ didn't say, "Come unto me and I'll take away all your problems", right? He says, "Come unto me and I'm gonna help you navigate all of this stuff. I'm gonna help you- Yeah
heal from the hurt and the pain." Job says, uh, in Job 13, "Despite everything that's happening", right, "yet I will trust in him." There's something in the Come Follow Me curriculum this week, I like this quote, it said, "Questions can coexist with faith, and regardless of what happens in the meantime, we can say of the Lord, 'Yet will I trust in him.'"
And I'll just, I'll just finish by giving one of my favorite sets of verses here in, uh, Job 19 Sometimes I use the NIV. Sometimes I use the- Oh, for sure ... the, sometimes I use the KJV, the King James Version versus the New International Version. This is the new... I, I'll always compare the two and see which one feels more, uh, clear and, you know- Mm-hmm
sort of resonates with me. This one is the New International Version, Job 19:23 through 27, and I just love this man. This is a great takeaway from the Book of Job for me. He says, "Oh, that my words were recorded, that they were written on a scroll, that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead, or engraved in rock forever.
I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me." That for me captures, encapsulates sort of just like this beautiful message and spirit of Job.
Wow. Well, of course I'm stuck on the word I know based on what your book is. Yeah, right. 'Cause how do you think Job went from, "I believe that my redeemer liveth" to him saying, "I know that my redeemer liveth"? Yeah. I think the, the short answer is through his lived experiences. Yeah. Right? Right. Through his...
'Cause there's really not much... Part of, part of the premise of the book that's gonna be coming out is that, so this is a semantic issue in large part, right? What do we mean and not mean when we say we know- Mm-hmm ... God lives, right? Uh, I don't think Job is claiming here to have a perfect knowledge of the, of, of God's existence and all of his attributes, 'cause he doesn't at this point.
What he knows is what he has experienced- Right ... with God. Does that- Mm-hmm. And I think there's a difference there, and that's a key difference, that when I say- I love it ... "I know God lives," I'm not claiming a perfect knowledge of him and all of his attributes. Heaven knows I'm not saying that. Mm-hmm. What I'm saying is Here are the things I know I have experienced.
I've put myself out there vulnerably with God and trusted in Him, and this is what happened. I know it's happened, 'cause it happened to me, and that's why I believe. Mm-hmm. I don't think we ever get out from underneath this requirement to believe, because we live under this veil, right? Yeah. There will always be the reality of my, my greatest declaration of knowing is still just my belief, but based on the things I know I have experienced in this life.
And I think Job is just saying, "You can say whatever you want about God, but I have lived it, man." Mm-hmm. "I have lived it. So until you've had my lived experiences, don't come to tell me what... Don't try to tell me what I believe and don't believe or, or that my beliefs are right or wrong. I know what I know."
Yeah. "And that's why I believe what I believe." Oh my gosh, that's po- that is so perfectly stated. And I wanna go back to this thing that that young woman asked in the class. Yeah, yeah. Like, "I'm doing all the things that are right." Yeah. "So what's going on here?" Because I... That is absolutely kind of the umbrella idea behind Job.
Right. "I'm doing everything that's right." Yeah. And I love how you said it's hyperbolic. That's why I love Job so much. Yes. I love hyperbole. It's probably one of my- I do, too ... favorite languages. And you can just feel and hear his audible sighs throughout all of Job- Mm-hmm ... where he's just like, "." Right. In fact, I love so much Job 3, where he even says, "Why didn't I just die in the womb?"
Yeah. "Why was I even born if life was gonna be this hard?" Yes. And I'm like, "Oh, that is so Tammy." I... That is hyper- hyperbole, and it's purest form. Mm. And so when we go into the story of Job, we're gonna look at that question she asked, like, why? Why was everything going bad for Job when he was trying so hard?
So we're gonna address that today, and in the next segment, what we're gonna do is we're just gonna find out, is the story of Job even true? We'll answer that question next.
Segment 2
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All right. John, is this book of Job true? Hit it. Yeah. We, we always get that question when we teach it, right? Always. Short answer for me, I don't know. I mean, I'm not an Old Testament scholar. I've heard it, uh, argued both ways. Um- Mm-hmm ... how about what we do know, what you said, talked about in the, in the introduction.
Um, in its original form, this book is written in a beautiful, poetic form. English translation doesn't really reflect that. I wish I was a Hebraist so that I could go back and read through this in its original form. Are you a Heb- Yeah ... do you know Hebrew? Yeah. Is it beautiful? Oh. I know, I know you're all about the Hebrew, and so- I know...
Yeah, I love the Hebrew. I haven't read Job in Hebrew, though. Are you kidding me? Oh, you should. I've looked up words. I'd love for you- It's good. ... to try and tell me how, if it's- Okay ... if, if there's... You know, they say, people that are Hebraists, like hardcore, they say it's beautiful. Mm-hmm. I'd love to unlock that beauty.
But it's, it's separated into three parts. Uh, w- chapters one and two are the prologue. Chapters three through 41 are the poem. That's an epic poem right there. And then chapter 42 is the epilogue. Mm-hmm. And, um, we've talked about how sort of this overarching question is why do the righteous suffer? Why do we, why do bad things happen to good people?
So that's sort of a, a... I'm not sure if it's true. I tend to believe it is, okay? And let me tell you why. Yeah. Uh, I believe, I believe this poem, hyperbolic as it may be, um, is based on a real person who experienced very real and intense trials in his life. And the lessons he learned about God and His plan were so profound and admirable that, that this poem was created about him and his experiences.
And so the main reason I believe this is because of what God said to Joseph Smith when he was at- Mm-hmm ... his lowest point in Liberty Jail. Yeah. Okay, so Section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verses 9 through 10, Joseph has just said to God, he's just prayed, and he's like, "Heavenly Father," very Job-like moment, "why is this happening to me?
Like, uh, we're doing everything you're telling us to do. We're trying to restore the Church of Jesus Christ here, and it's just going off the rails. Oh, God, where art thou?" Right? Like, come on down and help out. Yeah. God says, in part of His response, two of the verses, 9 and 10, He says, "Joseph, thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands."
He's like, "At least you have friends." And He says, verse 10, "Thou art not yet as Job. Thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression as they did Job." So pause. Mm-hmm. How comforting would this have been for Joseph at this, his lowest point in his life, if Job wasn't real? To illustrate this, I want to do an activity.
Surprise. Are you ready? Here's an activity. You're gonna fill in the blank when I tell you, Tammy, okay? Okay. Tammy, I know things are super hard for you right now, but things are still not as bad as... Fill in the blank with your favorite fictional character or Disney princess. Oh. Come on, go. The, um, uh- Don't care.
Doesn't matter. Anyone will do. No, I can't remember her name. Uh, Pocahontas. Pocahontas. Okay. That's what came to my mind. All right. So Tammy, imagine you're in the lowest part of your life. You're praying, and God says, "I know things are super hard right now, Tammy. But, you know, if you think about it, it's still not as bad as it was for Pocahontas."
I mean, she had to make some hard decisions about- That was tough. Yeah ... you know, uh, going out with this guy that she knew was kind of just part of these people that were trying to destroy the land. And I mean, it was hard for her. And so if Pocahontas can do it, you can do it, too, Tammy. Yeah. All right. So seriously.
Oh, that's so good. How comforting would that be? How comforting would that be? What a great application for this. Yeah. I love that. Wouldn't you just be like- You're right ... "Well, yeah, I mean, I get it, God, but I mean, Pocahontas, like, not even real." Right. Uh, that doesn't, that just wouldn't be comforting. Mm-hmm.
And so look, I don't know if Job was real, but I tend to believe he was- Yeah ... because I'm not sure... I mean, God could have chosen Joseph of Egypt, right? That w- that is more of a- Exactly ... more of a just like- Yes ... uh, accepted, um, you know, he was real. It would have made so much more sense. He was real. Yes. And it would have made total sense.
Mm-hmm. It would have been perfect, but he says Job. Yeah. That to me is some pretty strong evidence that Job was real, and that these experiences- Yeah ... that are captured poetically and hyperbolically are real. Oh, my goodness. Yes. So there, there's my main reason. I think that is so perfect. I believe it's real.
I love the, the Disney princess Pocahontas thing. I'm with you 100% that it's real, and this is kind of a fun story. So last year, I was talking with Professor Donald W. Parry. He's the top Hebraist- Yeah, yeah ... at BYU. The guy knows his Hebrew. And we've been working on a project together called Jesus Christ in Scripture: Finding Christ on Every Page.
It's a YouTube series where we dive- Yeah ... into the Old Testament, and he tells you what Hebrew words mean. But before we even began, he said to me, he sent me a message, and he just said, "I just need to know before we begin, do you believe that the Book of Job is true? 'Cause we'll need to talk about the Book of Job."
And I didn't even think about it, but I was like, "Absolutely." And I gave him the verse of scripture that you just talked about. Yeah. And so I did say that's, yeah, I absolutely believe that, and I gave him my example. And then a couple of months later we started to record, and we started recording Job, and I said to him...
I looked at him and I go, "Was that a test?" He goes, "It absolutely was." And I said, "What if I'd said it wasn't true?" And he's like, "We wouldn't be here." Wow. Woo. I'm like, "Wow, okay. That's pretty cool." Yeah. Like, oh, I think it's true. But one of the things I want us to do is go to the very first page where it says The Book of Job in your scriptures.
Mm-hmm. I'm gonna give you some cross-references. This is sort of a Job is real scripture chain, or The Book of Job is true scripture chain. I'm gonna give you a couple of scriptures where Job is mentioned by other people other than the Doctrine and Covenants. I thought this was really fascinating. So the first scripture you wanna write is Ezekiel 14:14.
And if you go there, which we will, let's turn to Ezekiel 14:14, and we're gonna read what Ezekiel had to say about Job. Okay. "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God." So there's Job referenced with Noah and Daniel, who we know were true prophets.
Love it. Here's another one. So next to that Ezekiel scripture you wanna write this one, James 5:11. And James will talk about Job. So James in the New Testament 5:11, and I will read that one. "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."
So there he is. You've heard of the- Yep ... patience of Job, so James is quoting him right there. And then next to that James reference, here's a fun one. You wanna put 1 Corinthians 3:19. So 1 Corinthians 3:19, and then we'll go there Have you noticed since you've been using electronic scriptures that you're worse at finding scriptures now in your normal scriptures?
Well, I'm lazier- Yeah. Right ... 'cause I'm, it takes too long for me to find it. Right, right. I'm like, "Nah, I'll just get it on my phone." Yeah, absolutely. Right. Right. It's killing me. 1 Corinthians 3:19. So, yeah. And, and- I'm using paper scriptures and- Good job, 'cause you'll want this in your scriptures. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So next to, so right next to f- uh, verse 19, you wanna put this reference, Job 5:13, because Job 5:13 has almost the exact same wording as 1 Corinthians 3:19. Mm. And so some scholars believe that Paul is quoting from Job in this letter right here. So John, will you go back to Job 5:13? Yep. And I will read the 1 Corinthians verse.
Okay. And you can see the similarities. Got it. So everyone turn back to Job 5:13. Here's what 1 Corinthians 3:19 says, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, he taketh the wise in their own craftiness." You see the similarities? "He taketh the wise in their own craftiness, and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong."
Yeah. There it is. So some scholars think- Same ... there's a correlation there. Yeah. And then go back to, and then when you're in Job 5:13 or in 1 Corinthians, you could just put the Doctrine and Covenant Section 121 verse 10, and that will connect us to Joseph Smith, which you shared so beautifully. Yeah. So seeing these different examples of other people using Job, I agree with John.
I think the Book of Job is true. Job is a real person. More importantly, we agree with Brother Perry. Yeah, exactly. I b- I agree with Brother Perry. So this is gonna be a g- now that we know that- Mm ... I think it's important to go into the Book of Job going, "This is a real person. This really happened." God, God only works in truth.
I just don't think it, this would be a Pocahontas moment. I'm always gonna remember that story now, John. He's not a Pocahontas character that Disney created. I, I love to, I love to see what, I love to see what people, what people put in that blank, man. It's so good. Uh, it's so, it's so fun to roll with Ariel or, you know, or whatever, and just be like, "Well, she had it really hard.
She had it harder than you, so not even real." Oh, that's so good. Okay. So then in the next segment, we're going to do this. First things first, go to Job 1:22. We're gonna mark a verse Because in all that Job went through, in Job 1:22 it says, "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." So in the next segment we're gonna find out how in the world did he sin not or charge God foolishly?
'Cause I think many of us would given the amount of stuff that he lost. We'll do that next.
Segment 3
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Let's first find out how much Job lost before we can understand just how important that verse is that Job sinned not. So here's what we want to know about Job. John, will you go into Job and read chapter 1 verses 2 and 3 so we can understand how much he lost? You bet. "And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters."
Verse 3, "His substance also was 7,000 sheep and 3,000 camels and 500 yoke of oxen and 500 she-asses and a very great household, so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east." Very good. Thank you. And he loses it all. Loses it all. All of it gone. Children are killed. His wife is allowed to live, but he loses everything.
Hm. And in this he sinned not. In this he did not charge God foolishly. Now, you can understand why he then will later on say, "Why did I even... Why was I even born? It would have just been better if I hadn't been born." And you can, throughout this whole story of Job, this is the premise. This is what's going on.
And then he'll have friends who will come and try to console him who, you know, spoiler alert, don't do a great job. But it's, here's why he didn't sin. Here's why he didn't charge God foolishly, and it's all based in verse 1. And will you read verse 1 for us? And we're gonna put a couple of cross-references next to verse 1.
Yeah. "There was a man in the land of Uz." Uz? Uz. What's- Uz, I can't. Sure ... come on, Hebrew. I don't know. Uz. "Whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, one that feared God and eschewed evil." Okay, let's highlight the things that describe what he was in this verse. Mm. We have first he was perfect, then he's upright, he feared God, and he eschewed evil.
Now, next to that verse we're gonna put this reference. Put verse 8, 'cause it'll tell us again in verse 8 that he was perfect, he was upright, he feared God, and he eschewed evil. And eschewed's a fun word. It means repelled Next to verse eight, put chapter two, verse three. It'll give the description again that Job was perfect, upright, feared God, eschewed evil.
So let's just take a look at some of these words really quickly because when you read that and you're like, "He was perfect," well, no one... You know, you just kind of go- Yeah, right ... of course he didn't sin. Of course he didn't charge God foolishly, 'cause he was so perfect. But we love this word in Hebrew so much.
It's one of my favorite words. In Hebrew, the word perfect right there, we often interpret that to be meaning whole or complete or perfect, which is tamim, but it comes from the Hebrew root word tam, T-A-M. Tam or Tam. Yeah, Tam, like me. Like you. Which means... The thing I love about that, the w- the Hebrew r- word tam means integrity, and that changes the meaning completely.
So perfect being full of integrity. Yeah, I love it. Yes. Yeah. Tell me why you love that more than just being perfect. Well, like you said, per- you know, whenever you, whenever we see that word in English- Mm-hmm ... no matter what its etymology is, very few of, of us know the etymology whenever it's used. And so we just kind of tend to go to that space that you were talking about earlier of like, "Oh.
Oh, so he never had any problems or made any mistakes or whatever." "He was always perfect. He never sinned, and oh, can't relate to him." And it's just like- Mm-hmm ... no, no, no, that's not what we're talking about here. We're just talking- Yeah ... about someone who was deeply devoted to his beliefs about God. And you know, the cool thing about this verse is you can cross-reference it to Genesis 17:1.
This is the verse where God says to Abraham, "Walk before me and be thou perfect." It's the same word. It's the same word. He's not saying, "I need you to be perfect." He's saying, "Walk before me and have integrity." I think this is the moment for Abraham, and I've said this before on the podcast, where the Lord's like, "I need to know, are you in or are you out?"
Yeah. Like, where do you stand? Totally. I know it's been hard. I know you- Mm-hmm ... haven't had children yet. You're almost 100. You know, and, and we have this Job moment. Life's about to be hard, or life's... Maybe he wouldn't even know where he's coming from. Maybe life has been up, hard up to this point. Yeah, right.
10 kids? We don't even know. That's not easy. Right there, 10 children. So for him to be able to be a man of integrity where the Lord's like, "Are you in or are you out?" And he's already answered that question. Yeah. Job is like, "I'm all in. Come what may and love it," right? That whole phrase, we love that. And so- Yeah
that right there, he's a man who had integrity. And then the fact that he's upright, we love this word. It's yashar, and that means to be straight or be a straight one or, I think this is also interesting, it means to be stretched. Mm. So, wow. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Talk about someone who got stretched, right?
Absolutely. Then we have feared. Highlight that. In Hebrew, that's yare, Y-A-R-E. And this actually means to have reverence or to have honor. So he's not afraid of God. He reveres or honors him. And he's doing the things as opposed to being forced to honor him. He's made the decision to honor the Lord throughout his life, so I love that.
That's great. And then we have askewed evil, which we've learned means to be r- to repel. I think this is also kind of cool that in Hebrew it can also mean to turn aside or to depar- depart from Though he's turned aside, departed from es- from evil, which to me means he must have faced it at some point.
That there- Yeah, for sure ... could there have been sins that he's then turned away from? Like, I don't know. I love these four words, 'cause to me, this is the building blocks of Job's testimony, to get him to the point now where you can see this conversation happening between Satan and the Lord. But not really Satan and the Lord, but that's the poem.
Right, that's the poem. Where Satan's like, "Listen, he's all in." "Let's see if he's really all in." Let's just see. Or did he really turn away from or depart from the evil in his life? Does he really honor God? I'll prove him wrong. You- And the- Yeah ... idea, he thought he had been stretched. Oh, we're gonna stretch him now, right?
Yeah. Right. So all- Right ... I just love the way it describes him in these words. You have to love these words to love the Book of Job because every one of us, I think all of us can say, like in my life right now at my age, in my 50s, I would like to think I have integrity, and that I'm upright, and that I fear the Lord, and I have departed from evil.
Yeah. And then life happens, right? Life happens. And then you have those moments. What a beautiful setup for the whole book, really. I mean, chapter one, verse one, these could easily be seen as the four pillars of like- Mm ... a, a, a c- our character if we're going to... Y- y- you wanna know how to endure hard things?
Here you go. Four pillars, right? Oh, I like that. And like you said, perfect, upright, fear God, eschew evil. You're gonna see all of these illustrated throughout this epic poem here, man. And, and you'll see that if you just lean into these four attributes and characteristics, you're gonna get through whatever comes your way, just like Job.
So I love that as sort of a, a, yeah, just a grand sort of introduction. Wow, this is gonna be a great discussion. So take all four of those things, think about it in your own life. I think everybody can agree they've had this experience. And know that those four... I love how you said the four pillars. Those four pillars are about to get you through whatever it is you're currently going through- Yeah
or whatever may come. Because you've already been... I just think the refiner's fire is consistent throughout our lives. And, and thank goodness, 'cause I wanna go back to when you said in the very opening when the Lord says, "Come unto me." He invites everybody to come to him. Yeah. I finish that sentence in my brain when he says, "Come unto me all ye that are heavy-laden."
Yeah. He doesn't say, "Come unto me, everyone." He's so- Right ... he's so specific with, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy-laden." Almost like especially those of you who are just overwhelmed- Yeah ... with everything. Or the idea that, like, nobody is without labor or heavy-laden. Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Like you see someone- So it applies to everybody universally
just sitting like, every sing- ... Yeah, 'cause it, if it would've just been like, "Hey, everybody, come unto me and I'm gonna give you rest," he's like, "No, I know who needs rest. It's e- everyone. Everyone is gonna be- Everybody. Everybody. He- Everybody ... everyone has got labor, and everyone is heavy-laden. Yeah. And he's gonna do that for us.
And so throughout this story of Job- Yeah. Job, I think Job is coming from a place of he has labored, he has been heavy laden, and let's see what he does with this now. So we're gonna find out what that is in the next, uh, segment, and we're gonna talk about it with John, and I can't wait to hear what John has to teach us about the Book of Job
Segment 4
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So one of the great things about John is because he is a religious educator, I knew he'd be able to teach, and he does it so well, and he has done it in past episodes. So I'm turning, I'm turning the time over to John to teach us a lesson from the Book of Job. And here's the cool thing. Don't we love the new lesson plan for church on Sunday?
Like a 20-minute lesson. Totally. Ah. Totally. I am- Totally ... such a fan. Because an hour was too long. Like- ... that's too long for people like us who have been trained. I, I don't know if you're allowed to say that, but I agree. Man, that hour was way too long. Yeah. I mean, I teach for, uh, before I transferred over to teaching institute, y- I was teaching teenagers for 75-minute classes.
Oh, yeah. It wa- You, you got real- It wa- ... creative. Oh, my word. That's way too long. Absolutely. But, uh, I, I agree. Shorter the better. And, well, the cool thing about this whole podcast is that we've broken it down into, like, 12 to 15-minute segments where you can- Yes ... you can teach a truth in 15 minutes. Yes. And so that's what John's gonna do for us.
I was like, "Pick a truth. Pick an eternal truth from Job," he's gonna do two of them, actually- Mm ... "and teach us what we need to know." So I'm gonna turn the time over to John. Hit it. Okay. Uh, the first truth I decided to focus on, and you'll see that both of these truths that I identify today are related to this theme that we've already identified with the Book of Job, but here's the truth: As we endure life's challenges well by trusting in and relying on God, we will come to know him more deeply So I wanna be very clear here at the outset that when I say enduring well, that does not mean that we just optimistically bounce through seasons of depression and serious illness, job losses, death of loved ones, divorces, betrayal, trauma.
No, that's not what enduring well means to me. Thank you. Can we all just breathe for a minute? Can I just like- Like, everyone can sigh. Like ... it doesn't mean, enduring it well doesn't mean- Thank you ... I never complain no matter how bad things get, as Job illustrates, that we'll get to. Right. Enduring well means to take Jesus' hand that is always outstretched and get back up, keep trying, and keep fighting.
Job is the, just the, the perfect example of this. Throughout this poetic depiction of Job's story, he was in and out of clarity from time to time. Mm-hmm. It's kinda cool and fun to see, right? Some, one chapter- Yeah ... he's just like, "I will never deny him," and the next one he's like, "Why, God, do you hate me?"
Right. You know? And it's like, that is so real to me. That is so real to me, and true to, uh, my own life experiences. And God is so patient with us, and he understands. There are beautiful moments where, uh, you know, Job was told, y- we, we said earlier that at least he had his wife. Well, at one point his wife, who's supposed to support him through all this, says, "Why don't you just curse God and die?"
Right? Right. And so, I mean, Job felt so isolated at times, but he refused to give up on God, and yet there's other times when he just collapsed under the pressure of it all, uh, in frustration. So here's one of my, my favorite parts, uh, in, in this whole story. Job had just pretty mu- had complained, uh, pretty intensely to God.
And, uh, God answers him in this famous chapter, Job 38, and I'm using the NIV again on these verses just for clarity. Job 38:1 through 7. Mm-hmm. So remember, Job has just complained. He said, "All my friends have told me this about you." "My wife's telling me to..." You know, and so he's, like, he's had some, some complaints going on in previous chapters.
God says this. Verse one, "Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said, 'Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?'" Oh. Mm-hmm. Almost like, you, you guys think you're so smart. You think you know me and my plan and my purposes, and frankly, uh, you guys aren't really capturing my reality or the reality of my plan very well right now.
You're getting a little distracted by what you're, you know, enduring and going through, which God understands. Verse three, "Brace yourself like a man. I will question you, and you shall answer me." So Job's like, "Okay. I'm, I'm ready." Yeah. And God says, verse four, "Um, where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand." All right. So, I... The more I thought about this this time, where was he? Like, if I'm Job and if I understand premortality like we do today, let's, let's operate under, on that assumption, that he understood the doctrine of premortality and premortal life. Job might well have said, in his mind, "Well, I was, I was with you in the councils of heaven."
I was there. I, I was there. I was there. And, uh, I knew what all this was gonna be about. God, verse five, "Who marked off the dimensions of the earth? Surely you know. Who stretched a measuring line across it?" Uh, the answer would have to be, "Yeah, that's all you. All you, God." "Uh, I remember, yep. I was, I was there."
And on what was the footings of this earth set? On what were the footings of the set or who laid its cornerstone? And there's the word, right? Who laid the cornerstone while the morning stars sang together and the angels and you, Job, all shouted for joy about the experience you're about to have? Why were you so joyful?
Do you remember, Job, about that cornerstone? And I think Job knew, and I refer right now to the prophet Peter. 1 Peter 2:6 might be a good little cross-reference for Job 38:6. Peter says, "I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious. And he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of this entire plan, of our entire experience.
That reality by itself, if we understand it, should give us the courage and the strength to keep getting up. We referenced earlier, I'd like to go and read all three of these verses, Matthew 11:28-30. The cornerstone himself, Jesus says to all of us, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
Now that doesn't... I like rest. Think about a rest. Mm-hmm. Temporary. Before what? Before doing it again, before bearing heavy burdens again. Mm. I love that. It's a rest. It's not a, it's not a permanent condition. When we say, "I just need a rest," we're not saying, "I'm not doing this anymore." We're saying, "I need to sort of just, like, you know, recenter myself here, get my legs underneath me again, breathe a little, and then I'm back at it."
We're back at it. And Jesus says- Mm-hmm ... "I'll give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Learn of me. I am meek and lowly in heart. You will find rest unto your souls, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." So when we've had experiences, I hope we have, I have, where I felt like I couldn't go anymore, whatever the case might be, and I have felt like the people in the Book of Mormon, like those burdens just taken off my back momentarily, temporarily, so that I could rest.
But man, let's not fool ourselves. He's not talking about just come unto me and everything is gonna just be, uh, you know, cotton candy and the fair- ... for the rest of your life. It's, "I'm gonna give you rest, but I'm gonna expect you to keep sort of digging in." And so because of the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, we can trust that God will help us through our trials.
He'll heal us of our spiritual and physical wounds. And as we endure our trials well, ultimately these will be the most powerful experiences that open our eyes to see God. So I'll finish with, with this set of verses. I love... This is one of the gems I found this time through, as I was going through with the NIV, that I didn't remember, um, you know, reading with such power in the KJV.
At the end of the story of Job, this is in the epilogue, chapter 42. Okay. Uh, this is... I love what Job says to God as he sort of looks back on everything they've gone through now together to get to where he was at that time by the end. Listen to how Job described how his trials directly affected his connection with an understanding of God and His plan.
This is Job 42:1-2 and 5-6 in the NIV. "Then Job replied to the Lord: I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted." And there's then verses 5 and 6. "My ears had heard of you," like before all this, "but now my eyes have seen you." Therefore, I despise myself and I repent in dust and ashes.
I want to clarify, I think what he means here with, "I despise myself," is I'm so sorry I ever doubted you and your purposes. Mm-hmm. And I know I did through this process, and I'm just so sorry, and I, I repent in dust and ashes. But verse five was the kicker for me. My ears had heard of you. I- it's like I, I knew conceptually about you, God, and I believed it.
You know? I, I believed you were there for me. I believed you heard and answer- you heard and answered my prayers. I believed that thy Son died for me. But now my eyes have seen the truth of it. I have lived the truth of these doctrines. And that to me is just like the most powerful One of the most powerful truths of the Book of Job is that it illustrates how we truly come to know God in our extremities.
Mm-hmm. I know that's not fun. I, I know. And God knows that. It's not fun. Just like the, the, the, um, that girl that I mentioned earlier, right? Mm-hmm. Where I described, I said, "Well, that's what life is." I'm not sure if I... I don't recall if I shared this part- No ... with you earlier. Mm-mm. I said, "That's, that's the question, isn't it?"
And I said, um, "You have to reframe your, your, your, your understanding about life." And I asked her, "Why were we sent here," right? And the class was very good helping us. Some are very sharp these days. They're getting out of this, like, "He just sent you here to be tested." No, he sent us here to learn and grow, okay?
And there's a very important distinction. And we learn and grow by experiencing the good and the bad. We're never gonna be out from underneath this need to experience the bad in order to understand more of the good. I said, "So no matter how hard you try, you're gonna keep bumping up against difficult things."
Mm-hmm. That's the program, literally. Mm-hmm. Not prosperity gospel thinking, where you just jump through enough hoops and do everything perfectly, and you are absolved from experiencing any type of hardship. Right. I said, "That's just not real. That's not reality, and that's a faith crisis waiting to happen."
And I said, "So, uh, um, you do everything right and you still encounter hard things?" And I said, "Join the club." Yeah. That's all of us. That is life. And I said, "How do you feel about that?" She said, "Um- ... I... Well, I've decided I officially hate that answer." That's what she said. That's good. And we laughed, and we laughed, and we're like, "Right?
Absolutely." But I said, "At least when you're thinking in this way, you're thinking in reality." Yeah. You think you're seeing life as it really is and really intended to be. You'll never be released, none of us will, from bumping up against these difficulties. God's promise is not that we'll avoid them, but that if we stay tethered to him, he'll help us navigate it.
And so that's, that's my first truth. We, that, uh, you know- Mm ... I'll, I'll restate the truth. I had it up here bolded in my notes. As we endure life's challenges well by trusting in and relying on God, we will come to know him more deeply. That is so beautiful. I loved it when you said that believing that bad things don't happen to good people, or the idea of I'm doing everything that's right, so why is life so hard?
And you said that's a faith crisis waiting to happen. That- Yes ... is so true. It's happening all the time, Tammy. Yeah. It's happening all the time, every day. Like in pri- it made me, it just makes me think about primary lessons. Like, in primary we've gotta be, be teaching these young little kids- Yes ... like- Oh my goodness
hey, life's gonna be... 'Cause now I'm thinking, I'd go back to Job, Job chapter 1. I don't think that being described as perfect, upright, feared evil, eschew, sorry. I don't think that being described as perfect, upright, feared God, eschewed evil, I think that came by way of experience- Mm ... like you've been talking- Mm
about. I think all those things are a result of who he had become up to this point in his life. I love it. Or at least- With 10 kids ... at a, at, at, at, at minimum- Yeah ... of those attributes in him had been exponentially increased- Yeah ... and strengthened by virtue of what he'd gone through, right? Yeah. I think all of us have the, the, the seeds of those attributes within us as just div- divine daughters and sons of God.
But as we go through these extremities with God, they can flourish if we endure it well. Well, and I think if Job hadn't had that, it would've been a faith crisis, and the Book of Job would've been- Yes ... two chapters long. Right. But I love- I give up. I'm done. Yeah. I'm out. Like, done. Yeah. I love that the Book of Job shows us, like you said, Job shows us what enduring well means.
It means saying, "Why was I born?" Okay, now- Right. ... now, now I believe. Beautiful. But boy, life sure is... Like, that is the Book of Job. It's showing exactly how to handle when you have those- That's enduring well ... almost faith crisis moments. Like, it's not worth the faith crisis. Life's hard, so be like Job. Yeah.
Gather your friends around you. Go ahead and complain. That's okay. Yeah. And then come back, and then complain, and then come back. And then the Lord's probably gonna be like, "Hey, you don't even understand what I..." Like, I love that. "Were you there when I built the earth?" I love that one too. Like, it's, the idea of a line- Yeah
how specific that is. Yeah. I can't even read a ruler, John. I'm not kidding. People know that. I don't know what the little notches mean in between one and two. Yeah. I know a half mark, and that's it. Yeah. The amount of effort it would've taken to create something like the world. Right, right. And, and I love, in my mind, how that works, 'cause I'm like, "I don't know how He did it, but He did it."
Yeah. "So surely He can take care of little old me." So I, I think- Yes ... that is beautiful what you taught us, John. Thank you so much. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Appreciate it. Great lesson. Yeah. Okay. So in the next segment, I'm gonna share one of the things the Holy Ghost taught me, and a lesson that I have loved from the, uh, story of Job.
We'll do that next.
Segment 5
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So going back to what we know about Job, and we've talked about this a lot, that he's a man of integrity. Let's turn to Job chapter 27. This is what stood out to me in the reading this time, and it's verses 2 through 4. And I have the NIV version and the King James Version, 'cause I do love- Oh, nice ... the NIV and the way it's kinda worded it, which is so fun.
Yeah. So in the King James Version, verse- will you read those for us, John? Verses 2 through- Yeah, yeah. For sure ... actually, 2 through 5. That's what we want. 2 through 5. Ca- I mean, it might be worth mentioning, Tammy, just for some people- Mm-hmm ... who may be a little uncomfortable with using alternate translations that, and may not be familiar with, you know, the church in rec- in this, just this past year- Yes
coming out and saying, "Please, try to find a translation that works for you." You know? Mm-hmm. The more important, more important than the translation is the experience you have with the word of God. Oh, amen. I, that, yeah. And so anyway, uh, I, I'm reading from- Oh, I'm glad you said that ... I'm reading from the King James Version, and if you have the NIV open, you tell me if you see any, like, cool differences- Yes
or something. But so Job 27:2-5, "As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment, and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; all the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; my lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit. God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me."
Oh, it's so good. It's so good. The poetry is so good. Yes. The thing that I love that's a little different is the way it starts out, "As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment"- Yep ... "and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul." "Hath vexed my soul." The NIV says, "As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice, the Almighty, who has made my life bitter."
Oh, it's so... I like that better. It's so good. I do too, 'cause here's Job again. Yes. He's like, "I believe, and now I'm really mad." Like, it's hard. My life is bitter right now. I think everybody has had- Yeah ... bitter moments in their life, right? Yes. Yeah. Moments where like, come on. Come on. So here he is saying, "Who's made my life bitter," and then he goes, "But my lips are not gonna speak wickedness, nor my tongue will utter deceit."
And then I think this is just, the idea of this is beautiful, but verse 3 is what I love. "All the while my breath is in me- Still alive ... and the spirit of God in my nostrils." Like- Mm ... in all of my breathings, I will not deny. I will not... And I, and again, at the end he says, "You cannot remove mine integrity from me," or the NIV says, "I will not deny my integrity."
That's how it says it. And the thing I love about this is every one of us have moments that are hard, and the person that best exemplified this to me when I was researching and studying for this episode was Elder Holland's April 2024 conference talk called Motions of a Hidden Fire. I love that one. So he could easily say that my life has been bitter up to that point because what we know up to that point is he had been in the hospital and his sweet wife had passed away.
And he actually said in the conference talk, "The most pai- personal and painful of all these recent experiences has been the passing of my beloved wife, Pat." So he's saying, "I've, I've been through hard already, but the worst of it all was that she passed away." Here's what he does with his breath. I loved this when he said this.
He uses his breath to say this statement, and will you read this quote for us from Elder Holland in that conference address? You bet. "Brothers and sisters, as we repent of our sins and come boldly to the throne of grace, leaving before Him there our alms and our heartfelt supplications, we will find mercy and compassion and forgiveness at the benevolent hands of our Eternal Father and His obedient, perfectly pure Son.
Then, with Job and all the refined faithful, we will behold a world too wonderful to understand. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." How wonderful that he cites Job. Yes. "Then with Job and all the refined faithful." The refined faithful. What a great concept, right? I want that to be me, yes. Yes. I want to be part of the refined faithful.
And here I love that he is including Job in that group. Job, who said, "Li- the Lord has made my life better." Yeah, yeah. Right. "It's been so hard." It's okay. That is part of the enduring well. We're, we're watching the refinement process in the Book of Job, right? Yes. This is what it looks like. Yeah. Exactly. This is exactly what...
This is enduring well, John. I love that you termed it that. Yeah. Yeah. And so Elder Holland, here he is, he's just saying, "It's been really hard." You can hear the sigh in that comment just- Yep ... ah. So I, it just kind of made me think as I was reading this and studying it, that the question is, like, how am I using my breath, specifically when times are tough?
Am I saying, "I'm not going to, while the breath is in me and the Spirit of God is my nostrils, I will not deny my integrity"? Like, that's the prayer for all of us, right? Yeah. When we're in those moments, that we can just be like, "Okay, I'm still in, though, as hard as this is." Sigh. I like this same talk, I, I believe it's the same talk anyway.
Remember where he recognized, he's like, "I don't know why prayers for me to be healed- Mm-hmm ... were answered, and I'm here. But we prayed, trust me, we prayed that my wife would be healed, and she wasn't." Yes. You know what I mean? And so it's like, a- again, just another beautiful Job-like moment where, look, y- uh, my wife and I, I, I've prayed, my wife and I have prayed for so many things, and sometimes it's so apparent that we received those things because of God's intervention, right?
I say that because sometimes I think good things happen to us. Sometimes we ascribe too much to God, good and bad. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Instead of just the program, it's what happens naturally in life, right? And so sometimes I think there's good that happens in our life that God didn't, like, specifically intervene to create.
It's just part of this program of life. Likewise, there's, you know, horrible things in our life that happen that obviously God didn't, like, do. But, like- There are moments where God intervenes, where, and other times where he just lets it ride. Mm-hmm. And, um, I just think Elder Holland, Job, uh, enduring well is just learning to embrace both right?
Absolutely. When, when he does intervene, that is so wonderful. Thank you, God. That's so life-giving and faith-building. But then when he doesn't, and he wants us just to experience the refiner's fire, that's great, too. Yeah. Yeah, I love that about Job. Wow. I, you know, I just had this moment where I was thinking, and, and maybe this is an answer to prayers for me, is you want, you want hard moments in your life that bring you to God.
Yeah. You want them. Yeah. As opposed to the opposite, 'cause I think we think, "Oh, if I just had more money, if my bills could get paid, if- Yes ... things with my kids were easier, if just this one part of my life was better," but then I think- Yeah ... how many times those moments have brought me to my knees to- Yes
my Heavenly Father. Like, you want that in life. I can't imagine my life where I couldn't turn to a loving father who- Yeah ... knows how to perfectly measure everything- Yeah ... or create a world. But my heart breaks for people who don't know the joy of going to their knees and asking for help. I hope I never have a life void of asking God for help.
Well, we all hoped that in pre-mortality so much- Yeah ... as the Book of Job teaches, that when God said, "You're going to Earth to have those exact things," we shouted for joy. Yeah. Exactly. We, now, list- may- maybe a bit naively at the time. Sure. But we shouted for joy because of what we knew the outcome- Mm-hmm
was going to be. Now, clearly you can't n- you can't know what you haven't experienced, and so there, we were very- Yeah ... limited in what we had experienced at that point. Yeah. But we understood what the purpose behind all this suffering was, and we shouted for joy. I think that's important- I met a- ... to remember
you know, recently I met this couple, and they were talking about, and their life is so great. They, they have no issues with anything. Like, they have a gigantic mansion. They're very wealthy, and they were just talking about how great. They travel everywhere they wanna go. And as I'm listening to this, I'm salivating, right?
Like, that sounds fantastic. But I remember thinking and having the question, what, but what do you pray for? Like, they don't- Yeah ... God is not a part of their lives at all. Yeah. And they don't have a reason to have him in their lives, because everything's going really well for them. And I just think, I'm grateful that I have a life that w- like you talked about, I, I'm grateful that part of, that my life is so rooted in going to the, the person who framed the world, who created this, to help me through my problems.
I, I think we want that. And again, we shouted- Yes ... for that. We wanna relate- We shouted for it. Like, yay. Yeah. We'll still get to have you, Heavenly Father, on Earth, and you'll help us, so. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. No doubt. So good. I love it. Thank you, John. Okay, so then in the last segment- Oh, thank you. It was great
John's gonna teach us one more cool eternal truth from the Book of Job. We'll do that next.
Segment 6
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All right, John, what do you got for us? Take us home. All right. Our final truth that I chose to identify today, I have to introduce it with a story. Great. I like- I love a story ... I like to, I like, I like... Personal anecdotes can be powerful, you know what I mean? Because they represent our lived experience.
Yeah. And, uh, we've mentioned this a few times in, in today's program, that just like, our lived experience is the why behind our beliefs. And, uh, Job came to know God through his lived experiences. And so without these things we struggle with and suffer from, um, we just don't come to know God as deeply as we could otherwise.
Mm-hmm. And so this happened about 10 years ago to me. Okay. I was teaching, uh, seminary at a junior high at the time, which was by far the most difficult assignment I received in mortality. Oh, for sure. Uh, Did a, did a little, did a little stint in a junior high. Oh. Okay. So I was so dependent upon God at this point, like, to just not destroy these kids.
Honestly, that's how it felt, okay? Mm-hmm. And look, for some people, uh, teaching junior high is just like their wheelhouse, and I, I love and respect those people, and we need more people like that. My just natural personality and skill set, I was fine as a teacher, I'm, I can teach, but I, I wasn't in a good space a lot of the times in my head or my heart in the way I felt about these kids.
I just wanted to wring their necks sometimes. You get it. Yeah. But, um, I loved them obviously. But it, it, they're difficult, like herding cats. So I'm, I'm just constantly praying to and from work, like seriously praying out loud, just like, "God, please, please, please, please, please help me see them as you see them.
Help me feel for them as you feel for them," all these things, right? And, um, it wasn't happening. And then one day, Tammy, inexplicably, uh, I woke up to go to work, and I was disconnected from God. I don't know how else to explain it. I have had the, the, the privilege, the blessing of feeling connected to God since I, I, I, had a miraculous awakening happen to me when I was 18 years old.
Maybe that's a story for a different day. W- I talk about it in my first book, Spiritual Foundations, right? Yeah, I was like, "It's in your book. It's fantastic." Yeah. I had always felt him with me, right? Uh, doesn't mean it had been easy since I was 18, but no matter if I was down or if I was up, I always felt like God was just, like, there with me, watching me.
I felt his presence, right? Mm-hmm. I woke up, Tammy, and it was gone. Hm. It's like my connection to heaven had been severed inexplicably. It was like a qui- It's, it's, it's, it's inexplicable to even ... I, I can't describe it in words, but I hope my words convey sort of the gist of it. He wasn't there. It was like, "Hello?
Hello?" Like someone just hung up. It's like, "Hello? Hello?" And you don't hear anything. I was so distraught by this. I was driving to work that morning, and I was like, "What's going on?" I'm talking to God like I usually do, and I felt like there was no connection. Hm. Like he was not on the other end of the line.
I don't know how else to put it. Wow. And I was like, "Okay, seriously, what happened? Did I, like, murder someone in my sleep last night?" "What happened?" Like, what ... Am I feeling residual... I'm going through my life. Maybe I haven't prayed enough. Maybe I haven't, you know, read my- Sure ... scriptures enough. And I'm like, "No, I have.
I have." That's the whole point. There had been nothing in my life that would, would give me any fodder to explain this disconnection. I went to work. I was in tears, Tammy, and I had to push through an entire day of teaching these junior high kids about God and how much he loves them and everything like that, and I felt zero connection.
I had to step out of the classroom at one point, and I went to my office, gave them a little assignment to read, and I let out some ... I had to let out some tears, some actual crying. And I'm like, "God, please," and I prayed, "please talk to me. I can't do this anymore, please." Sorry, I got l- getting ... It gets me emotional.
I don't share this story much. Went back to the classroom and taught. Nothing happened, Tammy. I finished work, drove home, utter confusion. Got on my knees again. I'm begging all the way to, to, to back home, begging on my knees at home, "Talk to me. What in the world is happening, Heavenly Father? Please, just I need to feel your presence."
Nothing. That night as I'm about to go to bed, I'm like, "I'm, I'm not gonna stop doing the things I do. I don't know what's going on here."
But I'm not gonna stop doing the things I'm, I do. So I open my scriptures to start reading as I do before I go to bed, and I did have a very distinct thought that I attribute directly to God, but I still didn't feel the connection. That's important. And the thought was, "Maybe you should study the Book of Job.
He knows a little bit about feeling disconnected from God." Mm-hmm. I had never really dived into Job before, you know? I mean, I knew about it. We all do. It's one of the most famous stories. I was like, "Oh my gosh, okay, I'm gonna study that book, man. I'm gonna study. I'm gonna see how Job did it." How did Job do it?
What was the key? You know, like, how did he get through moments where he felt like s- heaven was silent and God had forgotten him? I don't know if Job felt exactly the way I did, but I, I believe he might have, or at least I felt like he did. Mm-hmm. And it's scary to have this disconnection that's just inexplicable and makes no sense, and doesn't follow the traditional narrative of you did something wrong, and so you, you are now disconnected.
It was just- Yeah ... what I see now as a divine tutorial. So I'm reading through Job. Tammy, this lasted for three days. Wow. Three days. Going, trudging through my lessons with these kids that weren't interested, and just trying to see them as God sees them, and I don't even feel God. I w- it was so hard for me.
And about the s- second or third day, I'm reading in Job, and I'm at that point in Job 23, and this is what I wanna share. Job 23:8 through 10, and I'm in the KJV, King James Version here Job says, "Behold, I go forward." Can you read these, Tammy? Yeah, I'd love to. Can you just read them for us if you're there?
'Cause I can't- I'll try without crying. I, I can't, I can't get through them. Sorry. I love these verses. "Behold, I go forward, but he is not there. And backward, but I cannot perceive him. On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him. He hideth himself on the right hand, and I cannot see him. But he knoweth the way that I take.
When he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold." Whew. Spiritually strong. Thanks for reading that for me. Mm. When I, when I read that It, it was, I, I, I don't know, man. Like, that's, that changed, that changed my life for good. Mm-hmm. That there will be times when no matter where we look, we just can't find Him, we can't feel Him.
The key is, is just to keep going, to endure well. That's what enduring well means, is to keep going. Keep reading the scriptures with the intent to connect with Him, not to earn value, not to earn your worth, and not to earn His love, but just to hear His voice. Keep trying to lean into developing that relationship.
And that verse 10, He knows where I am. He knows where I am right now. I don't know where He is, but He knows where I am, and when I come out of this, I'm gonna come forth as gold. Mm-hmm. And so the truth I identify, closely related to the first truth I identified, nothing in life has more power to transform us into beings like our heavenly parents than deliberately, purposefully, trustingly choosing to cling to God in our darkest hours when we can't see Him.
I mean, those are the moments. Those are the moments, man, that transform us. So will we choose in those moments of feeling disregarded, of feeling ignored, of feeling forgotten, will we choose to lean into promises like Doctrine and Covenants 90:24? "Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good."
Right? Even this. This one, I believe you shared this before, Tammy, in a previous episode that I've done with you. I don't recall, but Doctrine and Covenants 98:3, "Therefore, God giveth this promise unto you with an immutable covenant that they shall be fulfilled. All things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good and to my name's glory," saith the Lord.
Immutable. Mm-hmm. Incapable of changing or unable to be altered over time. It describes something that's fixed, permanent, unalterable. Yeah. God promises that if we just stick with it, man- It's gonna work for our good, and we're gonna come to know him, and we're gonna become- we're gonna experience joy like we have never experienced before when we come out of this.
A greater level of joy. And when, and when we go through it again, which we will- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... if we endure well, we'll experience even more joy, and we'll keep rising in the level of joy we experience in our life. Here's a, here's a gem from the olden days. 1995, the year I was endowed. From Elder Richard G.
Scott. He was one of my favorites when I first- Oh, I love him ... had my awakening and started really reading the words of the apostles. He says, "Just when all seems to be going right,
challenges often come in multiple doses applied simultaneously. When those trials are not consequences of your own disobedience, they're evidence that the Lord feels you are prepared to grow more." Gosh, I hate that, but it's so true, isn't it? Yeah. That's, my lived experiences tell me it's true. And, um, we've talked in this episode about Joseph Smith and Liberty Jail and how God says you're not quite as bad as Job yet, so just hang in there.
I think we'd be remiss not to sort of just finish on a couple of verses from sections 121 and 122. Let's do it. Yeah. Uh, 121 verse 7, and these will just be snippets. Peace. I, I, I would just invite our audience to really just imbibe this, you know what I mean? Like, just feel these words for yourself.
Whatever it is we're going through right now And God knows that the things that are going, that people are going through are as diverse as there are people listening to this episode right now. Focus on those things that you're struggling with most and wrestling with most, and just, just feel these words like they're spoken to you.
God says, section 121, verse 7, "Peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine af- thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; and then, if thou endure it well," as illustrated by Job, "God shall exalt thee on high." Section 122, verse 7, "If the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou that all these things shall give thee experience."
That's why you were sent here. And they'll be for your good. The Son of Man has descended below them all. Are you better than He is? The answer's no, so it's okay. Hold on thy way. "Thy days are known; thy years shall not be numbered less." I've got you. I've got you. "Therefore fear not what man can do."
For God shall be with you forever
I love those. That's like, that's like the truth of life, man. You know, like, uh, another, a final one, another OG sort of quote from President Hinckley. Again, all these go back to sort of that same time when I-- uh, my awakening occurred to me in 1993. This is 1994, President Hinckley: "God is at the helm. Never doubt it.
When we are confronted with opposition, He will open the way when there appears to be no way. Let not any voices of discontent disturb you. Let not the critics worry you. He who is our Savior slumbers not nor sleeps As he watches over us. That's, that's the truth I take away. Yeah. And then I, I, I lived myself through the Book of Job, and I've leaned on that truth, man, so many times in my life.
That's why I'm so grateful for the invitation you gave me to come and sort of just, like, revisit it, relive it, 'cause it fortifies me, you know, as we reprocess past experiences. It's just, it strengthens me today to keep going. So thank you. Well, thank you. And thank you to Heavenly Father, who knew you had this experience with Job, because I didn't, and this is exactly what we needed in our discussion of him today.
So thank you so much, John. Oh, thank you, Tammy. I appreciate you. That, the Spirit has been so strong today. I, I'm just curious, how did it end? How did you come out of that funk? Uh, so, golly, how much do I share about that? Um, it was a few days later. Mm-hmm. School was over. I was still in the building. Uh, I was at a two-man seminary.
My friend, my companion, had left, so I was in the building alone. And you'd have to ask. I'm already emotional. Um-
I was, I was, I was crippled, man. I was, I was M- my connection with God had become my lifeblood at that point Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't go forward. I couldn't do it anymore. So I, I locked the building doors so I, so no one could... You know, I couldn't be disturbed, and I went into my office and I knelt down.
And similar to a prayer I gave when I was 18, I said, "God, I cannot live this way another day. I can't. I refuse." And I said, "I'm not getting off my knees until you speak to me again." Wow. Like, "Just tell me what have I done? Have I... Just tell me what to do to, to reconnect. Please, God. I will do anything, and I'm not getting up until we t- till we talk again."
And, um, I knelt there for a few minutes just in silence, just gripping my hands, kneeling against my chair, and, um, a very distinct thought came to my mind, and it was discernibly the Spirit again. And I won't tell you what the prompting was, but it was something God wanted me to do. Mm-hmm
And it was completely unexpected Hmm And I said, "I will do it." As soon as I said it The when does heaven work just Wow It just flew open, and I was just overwhelmed with this warmth and love and His presence again. Wow. I probably can't talk about it much more. Sorry. I've got super emotional- No, that's okay
today, but it was a sacred experience and, um- Absolutely ... I've never experienced that before, and I haven't since. Mm. That inexplicable disconnect. But man, I learned a lot. Good, John. Never wanna experience it again. I, I can te- yeah, absolutely. But thank you for sharing that, because myself, and I know many other people listening, needed your experience, so thank you.
That was- You're welcome ... beautiful. Wow, thank you for being vulnerable. And thank you for having me on, really. Truly, it's always a- So great ... pleasure to be with you, and I learn so much from you, and- Ah, that was fun ... I hope our episode helps somebody connect. Oh. Okay, so just do this really quick. Just gather your thoughts and, like, what's something we learned from today's discussion?
I mean, I have a whole page of notes of things you said. Yeah. I'm gonna go first. I loved it when you taught us what it means to endure well. I feel like you gave us all permission to know that it doesn't mean Pollyanna. Like and, and you, uh, you put it into Job. Like, if we can endure like Job, we're doing okay.
Yeah. Go ahead and complain. Say that the Lord's made your life bitter, and just stay. I loved that. Um, again, the idea of what it means to rest. Like, that's before you get back at it. I, that is such a great way to read that verse of scripture in Matthew, chapter 11, "I will bring you rest," and then you gotta go back and keep working.
And, um, ah, so many things. Your, the faith crisis waiting to happen. I mean, that just, uh, discussion after discussion, and then of course, the very last segment, Spirit was so strong. So thank you, John, for having that moment and experience with Job to perfectly frame how we can apply it to our lives. Awesome, awesome, awesome.
Thank you. Well, I loved Job 1:1. That was, that was my takeaway from you, man. That was just great. I've never seen... I didn't realize Job 1:1 was so, like, I don't know, scaffolding. I didn't realize it was so sort of- Ah ... all-encompassing. I, it w- When you called it the four pillars of character- That's a, that's, that-
that was awesome ... that's what I got. That's what the Spirit taught me through you today. And, um, that, that really is it. How do we endure well? Well, there's four pillars. You c- here's a lesson right there. We could just wrap, we could develop a lesson around that. Totally. Be a great, great Sunday school lesson, you know?
Like, here are the- Uh-huh ... four pillars of enduring well, and this is what it means and doesn't mean to endure well. And so thank you for that. And I'm- Yeah ... I'm a, I'm a, I'm a living witness of that truth, and those are- Yeah, you are ... the four pillars of it. That was such a great discussion, 'cause the idea that he wasn't born that way.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, that comes from experience. Yep. Yeah. So I, that was such a good discussion. Wow. Well, thank you. Thank you, John. We're done. That's the end. Thank you. That was awesome. Ooh, that was a good discussion. Oh, I love the Book of Job, and John Fossum, thank you, thank you. Okay, well, what eternal truth did you learn?
What is it? What is your takeaway from our discussion? Please join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram and share what you have learned. Comment on the po- as it relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway because it's where we're gonna have links to all the references, as well as a link to John's book and a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living.
It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our absolutely fabulous study group participant was John Fossum. And you can find more information about him at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.
Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember that you really are God's favorite.