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Segment 1
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In Mosiah chapter 8 verse 20, there is very fascinating wording. Now listen to this, "How marvelous are the works of the Lord and how long doth he suffer with his people. Yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men, for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them."
Wisdom is a she? Yeah. Guess what, you guys? Wisdom is a she, and today's discussion of the Book of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes supports this truth, and we're gonna show you how. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together.
I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend Tacey Craig from Orem, Utah. Tacey, I loved meeting you. Okay, now listen, here's my favorite thing about this study group, is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different, and today is so different.
This has been a long time coming. It's been in the works for a while, for years actually. I can't believe I get to say this out loud. I cannot believe I'm introducing these two guests. Today, we have Dr. Carli Anderson and Jennifer Neilson Scott. Hi, ladies. Hello. Hi. You guys, c- Dr. Carli Anderson is the reason I love Hebrew.
This is my Hebrew teacher. She is the one that took us to the next level with advanced Hebrew. I mean, I would say... I use advanced loosely, but oh my gosh, there's so many cool stories here about how we all know each other. So, okay, that... I, I actually know Carli way, way back. When we were little kids, our dads were business partners, and her mom had a singing group called Chalk Circle, and her mom played the piano, and I was in that singing group long on my way to becoming a Broadway star, or, or hopeful, I thought at the time.
And that's how I knew Carli, and then we wouldn't talk to each other for 30 years. And then I meet Carli through another friend. She ends becoming my Hebrew teacher, my book editor, all the good things Hebrew in my life. And then she agreed to be on the podcast. Yay. Hi. Hi. You're right, we have known each other a long time.
Yeah, for, like, 40 years. Isn't that crazy? That's so crazy. Anyone out there listening, if you lived in the Sandy, Utah area and you were in Chalk Circle, share some pictures online, 'cause those costumes were hilarious. The best. Sparkly blue. Mm-hmm. Jen, you were in that group, weren't you? I... My sisters were in it, yeah.
Oh. I, I was too old. But yeah, I had a couple sisters in it. Everyone was in it. Mm-hmm. It was the thing in Sandy. It was the thing, yeah. Uh-huh. It was the thing. It, it really was. Okay, now how do you two know each other? How did Jennifer and Carli meet? We've been doing Hebrew for five years now, Carli? Long time, yeah.
Yeah. I- we started, I- we started that class, there's a group of us that Zoom every week and do advanced Hebrew. It's been awesome. Yeah. It's really great. I- you guys have really stuck with it. When did we start, like 2021? Is that when we- I think so ... I think I picked- Yeah ... it up from Mandy's class, and we just kept going.
I- you guys started out as beginners, and you just really wanted to keep going. And so, I- it's been inspiring. It's the greatest group of Hebrew students, like, just like, what is it? It's kind of fluctuated over time, but there's been sort of eight or nine or 10 solid who just have stuck with it. And, and, um, Tammy graces us with her wisdom-
and presence- Mm. Mm-hmm ... every once in a while too. We- I had to take a break- Yeah ... 'cause they did it during the time when I had kids. I was in the thick of kids- ... right after school. I'm like, "I can't come to the after-school class." So yeah, I gotta get back. We, we need you back. Yeah, definitely. I need to get back.
The best thing about it is everybody comes. Because, uh, you guys are so far along at this point that, um, we just get together, and we just, like, chat about the scriptures, but we chat about them in Hebrew, and it's just the best. It's, like, the highlight of my week. It's been just so special. So yeah. Once we could conjugate verbs, that was, like, a level up.
Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause right when you think you've figured out how to do verbs, then she shows you the menorah- Uh-huh ... of verbs, and you're like- Binyamin, yep ... what? The Binyamin. Oh, brutal. Yeah. But it's a game-changer, right? It's so fun. Mm-hmm. It is. It is. It changes everything. And I remember that talk you had with us when you're like, "Okay, this is where the rubber hits the road.
Like, you have to make the decision now, are you really gonna do this or not?" And the Spirit had just said that to me a week earlier. This was years ago. "You need to make the decision." And then you said that to me, and I was like, "The Spirit told me that. Okay, I'm in. I'm gonna learn the verbs." Yeah, that's the point where you really need to be committed to Hebrew.
Yep. So if anyone's out there, don't give up. Just get past the verbs. You're doing fine. Yeah, that's right. And if, if you wanna take Hebrew, 10 out of 10, highly recommend. What would, what's your recommendation, Jennifer? Oh, it changes everything about the scriptures. It, every, every talk I give, everything I teach is different because of Hebrew.
I, I just can't believe the meaning that it injects. There, y- you just don't realize how hard it is to translate a word- Mm-hmm ... and get all of the different meanings of that word to come across in another language. It d- it, you, it doesn't work. Yeah. So learning it in the, in the other language gives you a whole different perspective on a verse.
Powerful. It's so good. And Carli's teaching. She teaches in Arizona. Mm-hmm. Tell us a little bit about what you teach. Um, professionally? Is that what we're asking about? Sure. Okay. Yeah, I teach... I am a, a professor of, uh, religion and the humanities at Northern Arizona University. And so I get to teach classes about, um, art, culture, and then religion, religious studies.
I teach, uh, Judaism classes, Intro to Christianity classes. We do Hebrew Bible. Yeah, it's a blast. I, I feel really lucky that I get to teach what I really love. Oh, that's so cool. Me too. Now, Jennifer, tell us a little about, about yourself. I, I've been in Har- Carli's class for about eight years, but before that I worked for the United States Congress and was a district director and a communications director there.
So my world is kind of politics. I do a lot of writing. Um, I help people write books and opinion pieces and so yeah, my world is this kind of polarized political world, and my refuge is the scriptures and the Hebrew. That's awesome. Are you married with kids? I have three k- adult kids. I just had my first grand baby in May.
Woo-hoo. Yay. I know. It's so exciting. I can't believe I finally got to join the club. And I'm, I'm married to Rusty. We've been married for 30 years. Wow. And then here's my fun story about Jen. So I've known Jen since even longer than Carli. I've known Jen since, gosh, childhood. We were in the s- we grew up in the same ward.
We did. But Jen was the older, wiser sister of my friend Cindy. That's right. And so she was like, she ruled the roost. But I have to show you the most fun thing that I ever found because my lovely and most favorite connection to Jennifer and her whole family is her fantastic mom, Darla, who I adored because Darla was my merry miss teacher and look what I found.
Oh, no She helped me do this. My Merry Miss Bandelo. Do you guys remember this? I do. And you had to learn the articles of faith, and you got these little things to stick on them, and then down here I had to accomplish all these goals. Every one of these things came by way of Darla Nielsen. I love it. Darla Nielsen helped me finish and fill out my Merry Miss Bandelo.
Oh my gosh. Is that the best? I love that. I know. We lost her to COVID, so I- I know ... I, I love to have reminders of her. There it is. There's a reminder of your mom that she says, "Hi, I see you. Stick with your goals." That's awesome. Get the, get the sticky on Sunday. Oh, if it hadn't been for her. She changed my life.
That was the ti- a point in my life where I learned how important goal-setting was and th- and learning the articles of faith, I learned because of your mom. That is so cool. I love that. Thanks, Darla Nielsen. I love your mom. Okay, this is gonna be such a fun discussion. So if you guys wanna know more about my guests, you're gonna wanna make sure you go check out their bios so you can see their pictures, and you're gonna find that in our show notes, which are at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
So grab your scriptures, for reals, 'cause we've just set it up by saying a lot about Hebrew. I can guarantee there will be Hebrew in today's episode, and you're gonna love it. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with and let's dig into Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. So first things first, ladies, what we always ask every guest, because it's in the Come, Follow Me manual is, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you were preparing for our discussion today?
Um, yeah, this is something I think about a lot because I spend a lot of time in Psalms and Proverbs and, uh, wisdom literature, and looking at wisdom as a, as a character, which we'll talk about later. But when I was preparing personally, I think there's just been a lot going on in my life right now. Um, there's just a lot of transitions and concerns that are just sort of heavy on my heart, and I was really appreciating how applicable Proverbs, but I think especially Ecclesiastes really spoke to me as I was preparing for this.
So I think one of the sweetest moments, um, and I guess I'll talk about it a little bit later, but I'll, I'll give you a little snippet of it. The, the verse that stood out to me as I was preparing was in Ecclesiastes 3, just thinking about how life is complicated and, and really that's how wisdom literature sort of addresses life, is that it can be complicated.
And I think if you've lived at all, you know that it is complicated and difficult and wonderful and transcendent and joyous and a little bit painful sometimes. And- Mm-hmm ... so as I was prepping, I was reading Ecclesiastes 3. It's the really famous one, you know, like the song, To Everything There Is A Season, right?
Um, but, and that captured me as I was thinking about all of the things going on in my life and, and, uh, things that I worry about and things that I pray about. And then I was pulled into it by the, that beautiful poetry, but then it's verse 11 that really spoke to me. Ecclesiastes 3:11, speaking about God, "He has made everything beautiful in its time.
Also, he has set the world in their heart so that no man can find out the works of God that makes the beginning and the end." And I really love that 'cause it sort of brought for me this idea of time and change and transitions and life, but also that sort of the divine is there, and there's a beauty to it.
That's gonna be kind of a theme as as we talk, I think, for me, is, um, just, uh, that in everything, because God is in all of the things that happen in life, uh, that there's a beauty to it, and He's made everything beautiful in His time. It was really comforting to me Wow That's an awesome verse. I actually looked at that verse as well.
Me too. And you know what it made me think of? What? It made me think of cross-stitch. Like, bear with me for a minute. Oh, yeah. Like, you know, I used to do a lot of stitchery when I was young. I wasn't good at it, but I liked doing it. And I, uh, you know, y- my knots would be too big. I'd have, I, like, I'd have these loose threads everywhere.
The backside of my cross-stitch was ugly. And- Yeah. ... and because I wasn't that great at it, you know, y- you're moving that color all across the back, and it was so ugly. I, I read that verse and I think sometimes that's what my life looks like to me, is just kinda messy, and I did things wrong. But I think God is looking at the front.
In His time and His season, He sees the whole tapestry of what He's trying to do, and it, it's gonna look different in the right time and season. But those trials can, can look really messy from our vantage point. So I love that. That is such a cool connection, Jen. It is a cross-stitch verse. The i- 'cause yes, I've done my, I have done my cross-stitch.
Did it with your mom. It was so ugly on the back. It always is. Yeah. But I love how everything He makes is beautiful in, in His time. Oh, that's great connection. Wow, very cool. Yeah, so let's jump to Proverbs 4. I had an insight there. Okay. What really stuck out to me was how many references there are to paths and ways, and that's like all of Proverbs, but really lots in chapter 4.
They, we talk about the way of wisdom, the right paths, the path of the wicked, the path of the just, and it just kind of made me ponder what does it mean to be on a path? Like, I know we often associate it with the covenant path, but what does that mean? And so as I pondered that, I thought that's really a reference...
To me, I think that's a reference to the character that we develop as we do things so consistently that they become automatic to us. And, and that, and that can be g- good or evil, right? Whether the pa- the patterns that we develop, but that's the path we're on. And some decisions become effortless once they just are a habit and part of what we do every day.
Mm-hmm. I think of things like generosity and service and honesty and chastity. I mean, it, it is all the things that we covenant as part of the covenant path, but they become habitual. I think for me, that's kind of what being on the path means, is that it's become consistent enough that it's not a decision every time.
It's just what you do. Hmm. I love that, and I love the idea of a path too. When, as you were saying it, it made me think about, um, how when you're walking a path, you just put one foot in front of the other, right? And that's, sometimes you can do that without even thinking. Sometimes you need to like, you know, like check the ground for rocks or like- Yeah
you know, like potholes or whatever, right? But- You know, I picture- Mm ... like the people movers at the airport. Like you s- ... you step on it and suddenly you accelerate. I think when you're on the right path and everything becomes automatic, it accelerates even faster. It just pulls you to where you're trying to go.
I love that. You get a little help from God, right? Yeah. Oh, I like that. It reminds me when I think of a path, I think of, um, hiking, because I do love to hike, and I used to do it a ton when I was single. That's where I would go and just find my solace and- I always, whenever you hike a path, it's already paved the way by all these other people who successfully got from point A to point B.
And if I was gonna take this path to Rattlesnake Gulch, which is up M- uh, Mill Creek Canyon, there's no way I would've ever been able to get from point A to point B on my own because there's all of these switchbacks. But the thing I love about that is other people have proved the path to work. They're the ones that paved the way and created the switchback, and so it's so easy for me to get on that and trust it 'cause everyone else has done it, and it works.
And so that's what I think of, too. Like, I love, Jen, how you said, "I, I hope it becomes habitual for me where I can just get on that path 'cause I've been on it so many times," and I think you're right. I think that the covenant path works 'cause it's been working for so many people. And when I'm hiking, listen, there's times when I have hiked and I've thought, "This cannot be the easiest way there.
There has got to be a shortcut." Leave it to me to think of a shortcut, for sure. But I'm like, "There's gotta be a shortcut. I- come on, who decided this was the best way?" And then when you get to the top and look down, you realize, "Oh, 'cause I had to pass that, that boulder right there," or, "There was a part of that path I couldn't have possibly crossed that.
That would've been dangerous." And so as you're doing that path, there are specific things you're going to pass where the Lord's like, "You're not gonna want a shortcut here. Just stay on the path, I promise." And you can't see it until you're at the top. So I love that connection, Jen, the idea that the path should be, you want it to be habitual because
And to trust the path 'cause it's worked, so. Yeah. Love it. So fun. Oh, my gosh, guys. Thank you for what you shared. Look at that. We're in segment one. We're already feeling the Spirit. I can't believe how much I've learned. I have notes. We only talk in 15 minutes. This is so awesome. So fun. Okay, so here we are.
I get to talk now with these women, and that was just what the Holy Ghost taught them. So in the next segment, we're gonna learn about a specific genre that Proverbs and Ecclesiastes are a part of, and Carli said this twice, and if you heard it and went, "Wait, what, what literature?" Don't worry. Carli's gonna explain it to us in the next segment
Segment 2
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The Book of Proverbs belongs to a very prominent genre of biblical writing, as well as some other books. And so I am so thrilled that Carli gets to talk to us about what this genre is and what we need to know about it, 'cause it's her thing, and I ... Like, of all the podcast episodes you could've been on, this was the one I needed you.
So Carli, talk to us about this genre of writing and what's going on. Okay, I absolutely will, 'cause I do really love this genre. But I guess maybe to start, I wanna, I wanna just r- remind the listeners, if that's okay- Yes ... that the Bible itself, sometimes we treat it as, like, a, a singular book, right? Like, you, like, start with Genesis, you end with Malachi, or you end with, like, the Book of Revelation if we include, like, the Old and the New together, right?
And it can read like it's, like, a singular story. And you probably know this intuitively, right? I think we talk about this a lot in Hebrew class. But- Mm-hmm ... when you look at it, it's actually not necessarily a story with a beginning and a story with an ending. It's actually an anthology full of a lot of different kinds of books, right?
So we have, we have poetry, we have, um, history, we have even, like, like, some of the earliest creation narratives, almost like mythic history. And when I say myth, I never mean not true, I just mean, like, really, really sort of s- cosmic symbolic stories, right? Mm-hmm. So especially the Old Testament, but the Bible itself, the whole Bible, is really just a collection of other books.
So I like to call it an anthology. And then when you, when you have that in mind, then it makes sense that, um, there'll be different kinds of genres within the book itself, and one of those genres is called wisdom literature. For a long, long time, scholars just looked at this, um, idea of wisdom literature- And saw it as books that were oriented around this idea of wisdom or how to live your best life.
So it was like collections of like cultural wisdom, spiritual wisdom, um, just sort of a, a, a, the genre itself was when you live life, this is what you might encounter and here's how you might wanna think about it, that kind of setup. And in the last couple of years, scholars have noticed that, that this idea of wisdom and like living your best life isn't just confined to the books that we've called wisdom literature, but you can see it kind of everywhere, right?
So it's in the Book of Psalms a lot, and I'm, I'm saying this so that like the y- that your listeners can like d- dive into the scriptures and start looking for wisdom everywhere because it really is everywhere. Mm-hmm. And it becomes sort of this guiding principle that you see in like even the stories of like in First and Second Kings or in the stories of Genesis, you can see like these, this metaphor or this archetype of wisdom.
So it'll show up a lot. So it's not confined just to these, these books, but what scholars have noticed is that the Bible shares with other ancient cultures, including Egypt, Mesopotamia, even Ancient Greece, this idea that wisdom needs to be collected and that like to have a library or, or a, a scroll or a book with sort of this c- like the collective wisdom of that culture or that time.
Okay, well, what are the books in wisdom literature? What are we talking about? Yeah. So let me tell you what the books are. Thanks. So the books will be, um, when scholars think about it, they'll say Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs. Some will include Psalms in that, and it'll be Job as well. So that collection of books will be what scholars will call the wisdom literature texts, or like the, the little mini library of these sort of, these sort of texts that talk about how to live your best life.
Mm-hmm. So you'll see them. And then a lot of the imagery and ideas are similar to texts or scrolls that we found in Ancient Egypt, Ancient Mesopotamia that talk about this. And they really orient around this idea of wisdom, so I wanna talk about wisdom We'll do a lot with wisdom, I think, through the rest of this podcast.
Yeah. Um, that's kind of the, the center, I think, for all of us. But in Hebrew, the word is chokhmah, and it's a feminine, if you can hear it. Like, it's a, the a at the end makes it a feminine word, right? Yeah. Um, and it's treated in a lot of ways, and we'll explore it, I think, a little bit. Uh, but the idea of, um, this feminine concept abstractly, but also this s- can be a personified person that represents the virtue.
And Tammy, you showed us that. It shows up in the Book of Mormon too. Yeah, isn't that fun? Right, yeah, yeah. So this is something you can kind of see across literature. And i- in ancient Egypt, a lot of scholars s- see this, this kind of goddess figure, Ma'at. Maybe you can go Google this. It's a fun little rabbit hole to go down.
But, um, it's, it's this female figure in ancient, um, Egyptian traditions named Ma'at, and she's kind of like the stabilizing force in the, in the universe or in creation. So she's like, it's, she's a combination of both truth and justice, and she shows up in texts and even imagery. Sometimes she'll show up kind of looking like a tree.
She'll show up, like w- almost like a, like a deity with, like, wings that are outstretched. Mm. Like she's gonna embrace you or she's reaching out to you, and she's the cosmic balance of truth and justice. One of the traditions is that she's kind of the thing that judges you in, in ancient Egypt mythology, right?
If, and when you die, they take your heart, and it has to be lighter than a feather. That's her special feather. Otherwise, you get thrown to, uh, the crocodiles, right? Yeah. Um, but, but she represents cosmic balance in ancient Egyptian wisdom thought. Sometimes she's depicted as being set on the front of, I'm gonna call it the bark or the boat, the cosmic boat of the Pharaoh.
So she leads kingship. Mm. And you'll see that in Proverbs, um, even in Ecclesiastes a little bit, and Job wrestles with that too, right? But Proverbs is really where she shows up kind of as that sort of ethical leader for kingship, and that's another thing that scholars have noticed with wisdom literature just across the Mediterranean world, Mesopotamia, Egypt, even ancient Greece, this idea of, of wisdom being a critical element for a ruler, for a just ruler to have and to be guided by.
So, um, what you'll see in Proverbs, you'll notice it right away. Verse 1:1 is like, "This is for the king's son," right? And- Yeah ... and we even get this sense in 1 Kings that Solomon collects wisdom from his people and from the greater world. It sounds like he's sort of collecting a book of wisdom, but it becomes the guiding standard for the royalty, um, not just the ancient Near East, but specifically Israelite as well.
And Proverbs is very Israelite. Um, it takes these ideas of sort of this cosmic justice and truth figure, female figure, but makes it very distinctively monotheistic, which is the fancy word for just the, a singular deity, right? And then also very oriented around family and kinship, and also leading with wisdom as a ruler, as a king.
So you'll see that Wow. So here's my question. You've talked so much about ancient Egyptian culture and belief system. What does that have to do then with our Bible? Why is that im- uh, an important foundation to have as we're going into this idea of Proverbs? Why do we wanna know about this woman, Ma'at, when we're g- like, that's my w- like, what would that...
Some people are like, "Well, why do we care about Egyptian culture when we're reading the Bible?" That's a great question. Thanks for bringing it up. Yes. Um, so these cultures are all talking to each other, so they're gonna influence the way they're thinking about the world. Okay. They're also gonna influence, like, literary genres, right?
Like, we still use Shakespeare, right? Like, you study it in high school. You might not like it, but you study it, right? Yeah. Um, because it's sort of like the great literature traditions, but also there's something really valuable in it. But what's special is to sort of know that background, then you can start to appreciate that wisdom in Proverbs shows up as a female figure as well, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, Ma'at is there, and some of the other, um, Mesopotamia has some other divinities that are female that sort of lead with this idea of, of wisdom and cosmic wisdom, and, and that, that it's a really important element to be tied with royalty or kingship. And so you can sort of see that. Then for us, um, it's really fun to see this female character in the Bible that if you don't know she's there, you might miss her, right?
Mm-hmm. A little bit like Shakespeare, right? You might miss the stuff 'cause you don't understand the language, right? You miss maybe, like, the cool little joke he makes or the beautiful point he makes poetically, right? And that's what's happening in Proverbs. If you know to look for wisdom and that she's being treated as a female figure that's guiding royalty, that, um, is sort of a presence, the cosmic balancing presence, um, then you can sort of see her.
If you, you don't know to look for her, it just looks like this word wisdom, right? Yes. Just abstract wisdom. And wisdom is treated as this abstract power that's really important, this abstract quality to have in your life, but also she can be a personified person, and then that makes Proverbs really rich.
We're not, I think, used to- That's cool ... thinking about characters that don't necessarily represent, like, somebody who's, you know, like, got a name and a history and is moving the plot forward- Mm-hmm ... right? But is just sort of a presence there as a personified sort of imagery- Yeah ... motif. That's a great answer because I do believe you taught us, and this changed the way I viewed the storyline of Moses when he gets the Ten Commandments and he comes down and he realizes the Israelites had built this golden calf.
My whole life I just assumed they chose a golden calf, like some random animal, but when you understand Egyptian culture, you, then you start to understand- Mm-hmm ... why it was they chose to build a golden calf, and what the calf represented to the Egyptian people. So yeah, I love that. Like, once you understand some Egyptian history, you, then it makes the scriptures, just like Hebrew, so much more rich.
So- Mm ... I love that. This is- Yeah ... fun to see the idea now that the word wisdom is female, and that it could be personified as a person, changes the way you read the Book of Proverbs. It really does. Okay, so get us into a verse. Teach us something cool. Not, I mean- Cool ... you've already taught us something really cool, but keep going.
Well, I want to actually kind of take us where we started with Ma'at, and I want to move us around a couple of different places in the scripture. Nice. So where you might see her, this idea of, of this cosmic sort of female figure that's metaphorical, is in Proverbs 3:18. So, um, we're gonna do a little bit more with this in Proverbs 1 and 2.
I'll, I'll, I'll show you how she shows up very actively as this really cool character in Proverbs 1, uh, later, but I just want to point this out, and then please feel free to share insights, because I know you guys will have them. 'Cause you have amazing minds. So, um, okay. So Proverbs 3:18, it's talking about wisdom.
In fact, in verse 13 you can see, "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding." There's wisdom, chokhmah, that's the Hebrew, right? "For the, the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold." So you can see that wisdom is being compared to, like, monetary value, right?
Like, keep in mind we're talking about probably, um, royal education, right? What is it that kings really need to understand? Wealth isn't important. The most important thing is wisdom. Abstract principle, yes. But then notice in verse 15, we get that pronoun she, right? Mm-hmm. "She is more precious than rubies."
This is wisdom. This is chokhmah, that feminine noun in Hebrew, right? "She is more precious than rubies, and all the things that thou canst desire are not to be compared to her. Length of days is in her right hand," that means a long life, right? "And in her left hand riches and honor." So you can have all the things that you need or want as a ruler to live a great, you know, magnificent, abundant life wonderfully, but with this characteristic, with this feminine sort of personified virtue, right?
"Her ways are way of, ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace." And then this is the fun little clincher. Verse 18, "She is a tree of life." I love that. I know, right? I love that. "She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her, and happy is everyone that retaineth her or can keep her in their life," right?
Now, I want to play with that a little bit, but what do you guys see? Tell me why you love it, Jen. I love the tree symbol overall. I, it shows up in a lot of places, and it's very, uh, I think Mike Day would call it multivalent, right? It's a, it's a symbol that can mean a lot of different things. But I love the feminine nature of the tree of life that we see in the Book of Mormon.
I l- I love it as a love of God. I love it as, um, almost a portal to heaven where we can go up and down. Like, I see it in, in the temple. I see it in the scriptures. It's just a really fun symbol that you can do a deep dive into. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I love it too. Tammy, what did you see? No, I agree, absolutely.
I love it when you think about the tree, the meaning of the tree. Isn't the tree the love of God? Yes ... the Book of Mormon Yes. Thank you for taking us to the Book of Mormon. Yeah And, and when you read that, and we know the word God is Elohim, and we've, we've absolutely talked about that on the podcast, that Elohim is plural.
And so I love the idea that the tree of life is the love of Gods. It is the love of our heavenly Mother and our heavenly Father. That would make so much sense to me- Mm-hmm ... in that. So- Yeah ... I love that idea. Yeah. And just to follow what you said too, it's 1 Nephi 11 in his vision of the tree of life, he sees the tree of life, which represents the love of God, and then if you catch it, it immediately turns into this image of Mary holding Christ, right?
So, so it's this sort of female figure holding up the way, the truth, and the light, right? Yes. To sort of bring us back to the idea of path, right? Mm-hmm. And so in a way, the tree of life is this motif that you, you can't escape from the scriptures. It shows up in Genesis, right? It's in the creation narrative.
And I should say at this point that, uh, if you read the wisdom literature, Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, even Song of Songs, and Job for sure, they're wrestling with wisdom, and to do it they have to go into creation. What was this all made for, right? Like, what... Creation is inherently tied to wisdom because they see it sort of as flowing through all of creation, sort of a cosmic perfection and wisdom.
So creation is there. So it's in the Genesis story. There's a tree of life, right? And in the tree of life story, they have to make a decision, and there's kind of two ways you can choose, right? Um, now it's a little more complicated, and I think that's part of the beauty of what's going on here, and in Proverbs and in Ecclesiastes too, but, but there's this idea of creation and sort of two ways you can go.
And you'll see there's the way of wisdom or the way of folly, and both of those can be personified as women in the Old, Old Testament, specifically in Proverbs. But the tree of life is that idea in creation, right? And then she's also in the Book of Revelation, right? In the, in that sort of celestial glory, right?
There's the tree of life in Revelation. So- I, I even see it in the grove, like, Joseph Smith, and he- So pretty. Yes ... he feels that kind of satanic spirit, and then it, and then the light comes, and he sees the God the Father- Mm ... and Jesus Christ in this sacred grove. And I think trees are sacred spaces. So pretty, yes.
I love it. Oh, goodness, that was so good. Okay. That was foundational. Like, that is a truth we have to understand as we're going into the Book of Proverbs. I love what I just learned. That is so cool. Carli. Whoo. It's so fun. So fun. Okay, so we're gonna pause right there 'cause there's still more we have to learn.
So in the next segment, Carli's gonna help us dive into this idea of getting more wisdom, like knowing wisdom, finding wisdom, getting wisdom. We'll do that next
Segment 3
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Let's get into some more discussion about wisdom. And Jen and I, we have come prepared. And I mean, I say prepared, but we don't really know where we're gonna go with this because that's the best thing about a Carli class. Am I right, Jen? Yes. You think you know, and then Carli throws you a curve ball, and you've learned com- something completely different than you thought you would, and it's so good.
So Carli, get us into some more wisdom literature. Oh, my gosh. Right back at you. I feel this is the best about being together, is that- ... it's just so much fun synergy. So. It is. Okay. So yeah. So I guess we've introduced the idea that wisdom can be this, this female figure. So let's jump into, um, I guess Proverbs 1 is where I wanna, I wanna- Okay
set us up. Um, but just to kind of give you a little, I guess, more... If you're not sure about Lady Wisdom being a virtuous figure, let me just give you some examples. Like, we have Lady Liberty, right? We have Lady- Mm-hmm ... Justice on our courthouses, right? She's blind. Oh, yeah. A thing, right? Like, this is something that all cultures do, and we're maybe less tuned into it, I think, like, right now, like, in 2026, right?
Um, because we're w- it's not as easy to read symbols, maybe 'cause there's so many, but also because the ancient symbols, uh, we don't look at them. We don't focus on them as much. So, so just keep that in mind, right? We have our own kinds of lady wisdoms, right? We've got stuff that shows up in ours, uh, in our culture.
Um, and so what, what's gonna happen in Proverbs 1 is it's gonna set us up for that sort of royal education, and I wanted to show you... I told you how the ancient Israelite tradition, their wisdom tradition, is a little bit more g- like kinship and family-oriented, and, um, there's a verse that scholars have noticed, chapter 1, verse 1, where it says, "The proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, king of Israel."
And then it gives kind of a preamble of what this is all meant to do, right? To know wisdom, instruction, to perceive the words of understanding, to receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity, right? So those are sort of the primary virtues that a, a ruler or a leader, any kind of leader, right?
Like, just because, you know, you're not, you know, a king or a queen at this moment, right? Like, you can, you can still cultivate these qualita- qualities because, uh, this is what true leadership is, right? Like, this is, uh, a way of sort of living in the world, um, with Christlike, Christ-centered leadership. And then I really love, it starts up kind of the message that there's sort of a preamble in verse one through six, and then verse seven.
It starts with this idea of the fear of the Lord. So, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, and the fools despise wisdom and instruction." And I wanna play with that idea of fear first because, um, it's- It's everywhere in the Proverbs. Yes. You can't miss it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And fear, I think, is, um, in our modern- speaking, way of speaking, we think of fear and we're like, "Ugh," right?
Like- Yeah, scared ... fear and trembling. Like a horror movie, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. But in Hebrew, uh, it can mean that, but it's, um, yireh, and the word actually means more... It, well, it can be fear, like you're like, "Ah!" But it can also be like awe, like awe-inspiring. Mm-hmm. A-W-E, right? It's sort of like, "Oh, there's something bigger than me at play here, and I'm seeing it, and it's kind of humbling, but also, like, majestic," right?
So you can sort of see that. And when you read the fear of the Lord, that's how I would read it in Proverbs, right? Sort of like, like humble or humility at the majesty of the Lord, right? And remember, wisdom literature always ties itself back to creation. So when you're looking, like, what, what is, what's the building blocks of creation?
How was the Earth made? Like, through what means or what sort of cosmic power? That would be wisdom, right? And you'll see that in Proverbs 8. If you want a fun read, go check that one out. Um, but it's, it's sort of the awe at the majesty of, of God flowing through all of creation, right? Mm-hmm. Um, sort of that light of Christ flowing from the throne of God out through all creation that we hear about in D and C, right?
So you can sort of think of it in those terms. Um, I don't think Proverbs is demanding us to be afraid, right? I think it's saying, like, when you have a solid sense of, of, of the presence of the divine in all things, then that can really move you into a space that, that wisdom can teach you or you can be open to hearing things.
I don't know, what do you- And Carli, I think that you're, you're applying it, too, to a king. And a, a king, you need a king that is in fear of the Lord, that, that sees a higher power than himself. If you have a king who sees himself as the highest power, that's a recipe for disaster. Yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly.
Yes. I love that. I think that is really the cosmology. You see that in the ancient Egyptian, and also I think in Proverbs, right? Sort of that, that sort of respect for, uh, yeah, that, that everything, uh, is part of this divine creation, and- Yeah ... you're not the only one doing the talking, right? Right. Yeah, I agree.
Right. That's awesome. Thanks, Jen. Yeah.
And then there's this other... So in verse eight, there's this addition that shows up in the Israelite wisdom tradition that scholars have noticed, and it makes it kind of unique. And what it does is it ties it to the family. So verse eight, "My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother."
So this is one of a few verses where we actually get the reference of a maternal presence that is teaching, and in fact, it's the law of thy mother. It's the, the Hebrew is Torah, right? So that's the instruction, the teaching, the law. The Torah is for, especially in ancient Judaism, but e- even anywhere in the Old Testament, right?
It's sort of that divine teaching, right? So you want to listen to the instruction of your father, and that's, um, instruction, um, sort of clarifying guidance, and then the Torah, which is a feminine word. Can you hear the A at the end? Torah. Yeah. Chokmah. You can hear it, right? So Torah is that sort of divine teaching principles of your mother.
So the father and the mother are just as important as sort of the cosmic creation, right? You can really see that it starts with the cosmos, and then it's also centered in your own home, right? Uh, that's where you can find wisdom, and both the father and the mother offer that, and I like that, that verse showing that.
I like that phrase, the law of the mother. I think we're seeing- Mm ... Lady Justice show up in our scriptures too, right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, teach, it's, it's teaching, right? Yeah, so she's, she's a, a teaching force. Yeah, the Torah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that verse 'cause to me it's like the earliest example of a proclamation on the family.
Kind of. Like- Wow ... 'cause you have the instruction of a father, the law of a mother. Like, that's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That the two go hand-in-hand. You, they have to work together. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The law. And then notice the next verse. It says, "If you are paying attention to the instruction of your father, the law, the teachings of your mother, they shall be," verse nine, "an ornament of grace around thy head, o- unto thy head, and a chain around thy neck."
So what they're saying is, you know- Mm ... like, what kind of ornament do you wear on your head? A crown. Right? Yep. So these teachings will, will coronate you, right? They could lead you to sort of that, that right leadership, that right kingship, right? That right queenship even. And a chain around your neck is like a necklace, right?
Like a jeweled necklace. So j- just riches, but also presence, but also royalty. It reinforces your, your right to rule. Well, and it reinforces the young woman's theme, how it starts. Ah. Beloved daughters of heavenly parents. Like that's the goal. Yeah. Love it. Like not only is it a statement of truth, but it's the ultimate goal of truth to be returned back to them to receive that crown.
Oh, that's so cool. So pretty. Yes. And I think you captured, Tammy, what, what I was seeing too when I was doing these studies. I thought the difference in Israelite wisdom tradition is that it incorporates that covenant path, right? Like it incorporates all of the covenant promises that we have, right?
Solomon was a king, for sure. He was a, just a on the earth monarch, right? He built a palace and a temple. But also I think you see in the Proverbs that family lineage, that kinship, that closeness, right? Like there's something about that that is also royal- Mm-hmm ... and that keeps you royal, and keeping those traditions, passing on the teachings of the fathers and the mothers to the next generation because that there's a sacredness in that.
I love that. Such a fun thing to do when you read the Book of Proverbs is grab a f- your, a color you want to be the color for wisdom, and just highlight every time you see the word wisdom throughout this whole proverb because it's a lot. I chose green. I don't know why. I just thought green was a good one.
Because, yeah, 'cause if you're wise, you'll be rich. Not just financially, but spiritually. Uh- ... but it was really fun to mark all of the references for wisdom, and now what we know about wisdom from what you taught us, Carli, whew, so awesome. That was good. Okay, keep going, Carli. Okay, I just have two more things I just wanna pull out.
We know. So as you're reading chapter one, take a look at the ways, just like Tammy said, mark wisdom 'cause she's everywhere, right? And just know she's a, it's a feminine verb, and so sometimes she's ac- she's treated as a person. In chapter one, she really is. Look for the ways that she's active. She does a lot of things in chapter one.
So in verses 20 and 21, she cries out. She gets people's attention. She has a message, like the Torah of your mother, right? She has something to say. She wants to share it. In verses 22 and 23, she calls out, and she invites. Um, in 23, she also pours out her soul. That's a really cool image, and if you kind of search for that other places in the scripture, Isaiah will also do something like, he'll mention something like that with the idea of Christ, right?
Pouring out his soul, the Messianic figure will do that, right? Wisdom will also pour out her soul to try to get people to pay attention to her, right? And to live a life the way that she teaches. She makes her words known, and then she respects agency, um, and that's verse 24 and 25. And then verse 26 and 27 is interesting.
When you read it, it, it might at first sound off-putting because her action seems to be mocking those who don't listen to her But read it carefully and compare it to Luke 13:25. I think this is something that Jesus, this verse is something Jesus is referencing when he tells the parable of the 10 virgins.
Like, in verse 27, "When your fear cometh in desolation and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind, then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer. And they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me." That's 27 and 28. If you compare that to the parable of the 10 virgins, remember, there's five wise and five foolish.
Oh, yeah. And that's- I see it ... very similar to the motif of wisdom and folly as females, right? And they represent all of us, the church, right? They represent, uh, people making choices, kind of has that duality of, like, two ways to go, but also the idea of making the choices that get you in the right place, get you where you want to be.
So there is this sense that, that wisdom has the long view, right? She's seeing things from a much broader perspective. And it's fun to me that Jesus might have been pulling in that exact proverb verse when he tells the parable of the 10 virgins. Kinda fun. Anyway. I love that. I'm marking that in my scriptures.
I know. It's super fun. Me too. I could talk about this all day, so That is so cool. Hey, for those of you marking your scriptures, the cross-reference for that parable is Matthew chapter 25. Okay. So just write that somewhere next to those verses. What a cool connection, Carli. I love that. I know. Fun, huh? Yes.
It helps me appreciate how much Jesus knew the Old Testament and how much- Yeah ... He's always pulling it in, and yeah, just, you know, wisdom, she's everywhere. Yes. Especially when you consider that Proverbs sometimes, and I even taught it this way when I was a seminary teacher, it was just like a fortune cookie, and I'd bring fortune cookies for my kids to open and read 'em and eat the cookie, and then I'd say, "Okay.
Just go point to a random verse and read it. There's your fortune for the week." But now you can take it and just go, "Wait a minute. Look at the connections to scriptures." I mean, we've already been so enlightened. This is cool. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, but that's not it. So in the next segment, we're gonna talk more about the Book of Proverbs, and my friend Jen is gonna teach us some really cool principles that we can find, that many of you have probably read and marked.
You might even have it on vinyl lettering in your house. But Jen's gonna give us some really cool instruction. We'll do that next
Segment 4
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Turn in your scriptures to Proverbs chapter three and highlight verses five through seven, but specifically verse five is the one that you've probably seen on pieces of wood with a painting. Like, you're gonna find it everywhere. It's such a classic scripture. Chapter three verse five says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding."
Okay, that's where I'm gonna stop, and Jen is gonna pick up. Jen, teach us. All right. I'm gonna share with you one of my favorite things about studying with Hebrew, and you don't have to know Hebrew f- to, for this to work for you. But I have found that a lot of Hebrew verbs throughout the Bible are action words.
They're things that you do with your body. They're physical moves. But when they translate into English, they become basically a thought bubble. So think about a word like remember. W- when we say remember, like, if we reminisce, like we did in the beginning about this sing group that we all had a connection to.
The fact that we each have a memory of that, now we have remembered. But in Hebrew, to remember, you, you perform a ritual or a covenant. You do something. When God is inviting people to remember him, he wants them to act. And I... There are so many words that are, that work this way. Um, love is one of them. You know, in, in our language, love is a feeling.
In Hebrew, love is an action. Listen is another one. For us- Mm-hmm ... if I heard and, and was able to understand the words you said, I have listened. But in Hebrew, it's more like a hearkening because I listen and I obey. Yes. So keep that in mind as we look at this verse. I always wanna look at the verbs. So let's look at verse five.
"Trust in the Lord with all thy heart." What does that mean? Think about that verb trust. Now, what if trust isn't just something you feel? What if it's something you do? You act because you trust, not because you know. Like, you willingly take a step into the darkness, and that order really matters. It's easy to take that step when you see exactly where it's taking you.
And then the proverb counsels us to not lean into our own understanding. Again, that's an action. We, don't act on just what you know. But also, I see that as a reference to, like, the physical limitations of this earth. You know, God is not limited by our earthly laws of physics. If, if God needs us to have time to do something or money to do something, He, He can provide that.
And I have to remember that, that i- if He needs me to do something, He will remove the barriers that are in my way that my mortal self cannot conceive. And so often we see, like, lack of time or money as a reason why I can't do my ministry or I can't perform my calling or I can't clean the church. But when we're doing God's work, He can provide all of the things we need to get things done And I see that in my own work as I write for a living.
E- e- especially when I was Relief Society president, I would see... Someone would call me r- right when I have a deadline, and I've got to produce so much content by the end of the day. But if I stop and take care of that thing, God had so many ways to bless me. He, He could, um, I, I would write faster. I would s- go home and sit down, and I would produce a whole day's worth of writing in just a few hours, 'cause I did the Lord's work in the morning, or my deadline would move.
Something would change. So I can't lean to my own understanding. Yes, there are physical laws that say I can't write that much in a day, but God doesn't have to follow those same physical laws. So I need to trust in Him and not lean to my own understanding. I will second witness what Jennifer just said, just so you can go...
You can't say, "Well, that's her experience." 100%, Jennifer. When I put the Lord first, when I do those things in the morning, it's now become my ritual. It's my path. Read my scriptures, say my prayers, because I can't explain how I'm able to get the things done that I do. It does not make sense. And there has actually been specific times in my life where I have asked God to stretch time.
'Cause someone once told me you could pray for that, and I thought, "Well, that is ridiculous." And then I needed God to stretch time. I really did. S- He... I don't know how it happened, but I remember looking at the clock going, "Wait a minute, it should be like two hours have passed," and it was 20 minutes. I can't believe how much work I got done.
Like, God really- Right ... It doesn't make sense. But if I lean into my own understanding first and not trust God, then I probably wouldn't even have tried to do it, 'cause I would've been like, "There's no time." Right. "I'll just do it another day." But I was like, "Oh, Heavenly Father, I'm trusting in you that this is gonna work," and it does.
So second witness, Jennifer, what you said is true. Yes. And Carli and I were both Relief Society presidents at the same time, so we know this, that somebody will call- ... and there's been a death in the ward. It does kind of blow up your life for a couple of days. Yeah. Right? And you gotta be able to just take the reins and do it, and everything else kind of has to fall by the wayside, right?
Yeah. But somehow it doesn't destroy your career. Yeah. Right. So... And I love verse nine. That's so good. Uh, in verse nine, if you go down, it says, "Honor the Lord with thy substance, and with the first fruits of all thine increase." That's like the morning time. Like you talked about, Tammy. Like, that's... My morning time is the first fruits.
That's when I am the most productive. That's so true. And that's, that's when God wants me to- Mm ... pray and read my scriptures and, and do the things that matter, that are His Word. Uh, so, uh, to me, it's all about understanding that God has different laws of physics than we do, and we need to just quit putting limitations on Him.
We can do the things that He requires of us. And then let's turn to verse six. I love, um, "In all thy ways acknowledge Him." Again, let's, let's look at the action word in this verse. It's, it... Acknowledge is not just a feeling of gratitude To me, this is an invitation to God. When I pray to God, I give him permission to intervene in my life.
Like, I know he loves me enough to give me agency. He's not gonna jump in and do all the things for me if I don't invite him. But I wanna invite him to guide and bless me every chance I get. So to me, acknowledgement, uh, yes, it is gratitude, but it's also that invitation of, uh, and this is p- probably also fear of the Lord.
I'm letting God lead, but I'm letting him know that he has permission to lead me. I, this is, uh, this is something that I'm willing to ask of him and acknowledge that he knows more than I do, and he's not gonna ask anything of me that can't be done. He doesn't ask me to do physically impossible things. Oh, that's awesome.
I will say, though, sometimes when he asks you, it, like, my, at first glance, it can feel like, "Oh, this'll be impossible." Yeah. "Oh, I can't do that." Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's the point, right? I think that's what you're saying. Yeah. I remember one morning, I, uh, I'd had a very busy Sunday. You know, when you're a Relief Society president, you have a lot of meetings on Sunday, and Sundays can be crazy.
Monday morning, I got up, I said my prayers, and I, I had this thought pop into my head, and it just said, "Today is a Relief Society day." And I remember thinking, "No, today, yesterday was a Relief Society day." "Today is a writing day." Um, so I got, I got about doing my writing, and about 2:00 in the afternoon, I got a call from a sister in my ward who was terminally ill, and she needed a blessing.
And so I s- put everything aside. I went, I picked her up. I took her to the home of a, of another gentleman in our ward who was a good friend of hers, and he gave her a beautiful blessing, and then she just needed to talk. And we talked for about two hours, with my work at home not getting done. And at the end of our talk, she said, "Oh, I know you have a lot to do.
This must have taken up so much of your day." And, and I just looked at her and said, "Alice- God made you an appointment today. Oh, wow. Well, as you were talking, Jen, it just made me think back to everything we've talked about so far because I feel like verses five through nine are really great instruction, and it's also law.
Like, it's true. It is a law that cannot be changed. When you trust in the Lord and lean not unto... So I'm imagining Heavenly Father being like, "Here's the instruction of what I want you to do," but then you have this idea of Elohim then coming in and saying, "And the law is you have to believe it. I'm telling you right now, if you trust in the Lord, He really is going to make things work for you, and so just do it."
And so I, I think there's so much beauty. Like, acknowledge Him. He will direct your paths. Honor Him. And then this idea of the first fruits of all thine increase, and you've just borne a beautiful witness th- of how it works in our daily life. And so you're gonna be instructed, and then you're gonna be given the law.
And, and I just love that scripture in Doctrine and Covenants where there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven upon which all blessings are predicated. And so if you keep the law, He is bound. God will absolutely bless you. And so the way you taught that was beautiful. That's how my mind spun it out. I love that, Jen.
Thank you. Wow. Yeah, and I- this little tip about looking for the action and the verbs, that works all through the scriptures. It does. Just say every time you see a verb, think, "What would that look like if it's an action instead of a thought?" So much wisdom in that statement. Yeah. Oh, so good. Thank you. Wow, Jen, that was great.
Okay. Well, those are those three right there. And that's the cool thing about scriptures, especially with the new Come, Follow Me mo- model. Like, we just spent 15 minutes talking about three little verses and personal stories and feeling the Spirit. So thank you for doing that. I felt the Spirit when you told that story about that sweet Alice.
What a good story. Thank you. Oh, so good. Okay. So in the next segment, we're gonna talk about more wisdom, um, specifically the end-all, be-all example of the most wise of all women in the Book of Proverbs. We'll do that next.
Segment 5
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We're gonna go all the way to the very back of Proverbs, in fact, to the very last chapter because the way I've been reading this, and Carli, correct me if I'm wrong, but the very beginning of Proverbs talks about finding wisdom and how important wisdom is, and then the last chapter seems to tell us in Proverbs 31, "Here's the most wise of all women."
Yep. "And she happens to be virtuous. So if you can find her, here's all the qualities that she should probably have." Is that right? Yeah. Is that kind of maybe how it was written? Yeah. Nice bookends. Yep. Mm-hmm. Perfect bookends. Find her. Oh, here she is, so she better be exactly what I'm telling you. So we have the proverb of a virtuous woman.
This is in Proverbs 31. The actual proverb itself is verses 10 through 31, and I've done this before. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, but if you don't have it already in your scriptures, here are some fun facts about this proverb first verse. "The words of King Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him."
So it's the only scripture that I know of that is accredited to a woman. So we've got this woman telling her son, "Hey, here's everything you want to find in a virtuous, wise woman." And remember in chapter 1, it was pay attention to the Torah of your mom, right? Yes. So they fit with it there, too. Perfect other bookend.
Nice job, Carli. Yes. Yeah. So here's her wisdom. Here's her advice. Okay, here's what you're gonna look for. Then you go into the proverb. So verses 10 through 31, this is a fun thing to know about this proverb, is it's written in a very specific order. It's called an acrostic poem. Now, you br- probably remember doing this as a little kid.
It's where you would have to write a word down the side of your paper, and then each letter of that word would be a, another word. For example, if I had to write Tamara down the side of a page, then I would say T stands for, you know, terrific. A stands for awesome. M stands for marvelous. Don't you love me?
I love myself. Um, another A is awesome again. Like, whatever. That's an acrostic poem. So this right here, the proverb of a virtuous woman, it doesn't spell anything. It's actually the Hebrew alphabet in order starting with aleph and ending with tav, and every letter of the alphabet begins the verse, and you go on, and it goes in order.
And I think it's interesting. There's kind of some ideas about why it might be written this way, because it's easier to remember, 'cause you can just go through the alphabet and say, "Okay, the next letter stands for this," and then say the verse. And the reason why this proverb is so important is because, as I understand it, it is sung every Sabbath by a man to his wife about being a virtuous woman.
Is that correct? It's called eshet chayil in Hebrew. Eshet chayil, yeah, in, yeah, in Judaism they'll do that, yeah. Many traditions within Judaism, the husband will recite that to his wife on the Sabbath, yes. Yes. In fact, I've seen it a couple of times in The Chosen. And so if you go and notice, they light the candles in- They do
twice. In the background, I started hearing a man sing, and then I was like, "He's singing the virtuous woman. They're doing it." So here is this proverb, and it starts by saying in verse 10, "Who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies." Okay, first things first, mark the word virtuous. And longtime listeners know how em- emphatically I believe this verse should be taught correctly because that's my...
It's gonna be my f- the hill I die on is gonna be teaching how, what virtuous really means. So the word virtue in Hebrew is this word, chayil. Mm-hmm. And you can spell it C-H-A-Y-I-L, chayil. And that word in Hebrew means strength or power. And that's it. That's all it means. And so when you know that, it's gonna change the way you read so many verses of scripture.
For instance, when the Savior is in the streets and the woman with the issue of blood touches the hem of his robe, what does he say to everybody? He says, "Who touched me?" And then what? I felt virtue go out of me Thank you. I felt power or strength go out of me. Yeah. He didn't say, "I felt modesty leave me."
Give me a break. I felt power leave me. Another really good one that you wanna know is there's a Book of Mormon reference that you can go to where Alma the Younger goes back to teach the group of people who've kind of left. They were believers at one point, and he's like, "What are we gonna do? How are we gonna teach them?"
Listen to this verse, 'cause it has the word virtue in it. Alma 31:5, he says in there, "As the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just, yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword or anything else which had happened unto them; therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God."
How cool is that? To try the power or the strength of the word of God. So cool. So cool. I love that. Yeah. Let's just fix that because then the best thing about that verse is the suffix O-U-S, Jen, you'll probably know this as a English editor, but O-U-S means to fill, to be filled with or full of. And so now we have, "Who can find a woman filled with or full of power or strength?"
And then we have countless quotes from prophets and apostles that say the power and strength that women have today is priesthood power. It's not the same as being ordained. It's priesthood power that every one of us are given the moment we make a covenant with Jesus Christ. So then when you go into verse 11, "The heart of her husband does safely trust in her," highlight husband, because throughout the Old Testament, the husband is Jesus Christ.
So I personally believe the proverb of a virtuous woman is about a covenant-keeping relationship with every woman and Jesus Christ. Just knowing that right there, tell me how it changes this proverb you've known your entire lives, that it could be about a covenant-keeping relationship with Jesus Christ.
Well, I, I can speak to that. I remember when we, you were first working on this project, right? And that's... You had me come in and help you, like, edit, and we were... It was just so phenomenal. Um, I, I'd seen virtuous power in that New Testament verse you referenced, right? And in hayil, it's such a cool Hebrew word, 'cause it's power.
It's also, like, it's used in Isaiah to represent sort of the, the, like a dance or a power, uh, kind of around, like, um, women and, and giving birth. And like, it's, it's all kinds of fun. And, and it's also, it can be used for masculinity and, like, strength in warf- warfare. Like, it's, it's an amazing word as far as, like, symbolism and, like, how it gets used.
But- Mm-hmm ... it just blew my mind the way that you had seen all of the connectivity to covenant, and it just... I mean, I love that. I love that, that passage because it's just a beautiful passage, and like you said, it, it shows up in lots of really special ways in Judaism and, and other traditions. But I, yeah, to see it as a woman of power, that's what I'm always looking for.
I'm always looking for that. Yeah, yeah. And when you spotted that, I mean, I just... It was just a game changer. So, so beautiful. And how powerful if we could teach our eight-year-old little girls on the day of their baptism- Mm-hmm ... that today you make your first covenant with Christ, today you are given his power.
That's such a different lesson than today you're being forgiven of all your sins, 'cause that's actually, we don't believe that. We need to stop teaching that. Moroni is very clear about that, that anyone under the age of eight is not. It's, it's fine if you're, if you're getting baptized at 30, then that's the talk.
Today you're being forgiven of your sins. I gotta tell you how devastated I was when I committed my first sin after being baptized, 'cause I thought I was so perfect. And then my sister Cindy wanted the pink crayon, and she stole it from me, and I re- like, I- And grabbed it back. That Cindy made me commit my first sin.
I just remember feeling so devastated. I, I totally did not understand baptism.
Right? Let's focus on giving power to cute girls and boys- Yes ... on the day of baptism. Today's the day- ... that you got his power. That's really cool. Yeah. So- I love it- Let's get started ... so much 'cause I, I think, like, the more I study the covenant path and the more I study, like, the, the temple and the covenants that we make there, but baptism too, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, I just went with my cute 14-year-old niece and did baptisms for the dead in the temple, which I hadn't done for a long time, and just, like, really appreciating the power of, like, that act that you... It's, it's, it's very symbolic, but it's, what it's doing is giving you power, right? It's clothing you in all of this glory.
It's clothing you in virtue, right? It's clothing- Yep ... in this, this divine power that just can make life a little easier, you know? Yeah. And give you the strength you need to take on the things, to appreciate or people to make Monday a Relief Society day or you know? Yes. Right? Yes. Take on the challenges that we...
just are just a normal part of living a human life. Yeah, it's, it's just beautiful to me. And how beautiful to think that the most wise woman is a woman who's a covenant keeper. That's the message, the bookend. Like, if you can find wisdom, awesome. Here's the example of what a wise woman looks like. Oh, she's a covenant keeper.
Great. And then if you go through each verse, then you read it and you're like, "Wait a minute, though. She's got to cook and clean and be strong and have a, a vineyard all to her own." Well, it's an allegory, and it's actually symbolic. And so if any of you have been freaking out that you don't know how to sew yet or dress your family really nice, in verse 21- Or you're, or you're not afraid of the snow.
Right. You might... You're not afraid of the snow. I see. That actually might mean something more... Yeah, 'cause just spoiler alert: snow is a symbol of death, and scarlet is a symbol of the atonement of Jesus Christ. So now I'm not afraid of death. Changes the whole verse. Yes. I'm not afraid of death because my household is clothed in the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Love that. Love that. So that is- So much more logical ... so much more logical. Okay, so that's my proverb. That's it. I just love talking about it, so thanks for giving me that segment. So there's your proverb of a virtuous woman, but now we still have to do Ecclesiastes. So this is rich, and Carli's gonna take us through the Book of Ecclesiastes, uh, in the next segment.
Segment 6
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Here we go.
Carli, Ecclesiastes, I put in quotations, what's the point? So teach us, what's the point of Ecclesiastes, and why do we have this book in here? I'm glad you phrased it just like that. When you pick up Ecclesiastes, I don't know if anyone who... If you've had this experience, but when I pick it up, you know, like, as a high schooler, I was looking at it, and I was like, "This seems so depressing."
Right? Own change. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it starts off, right, with, like, that vanity of vanities, all is vanity. And yeah, I mean, what's the point is, I think, one of the essential questions of the book. Um, we'll talk about vanity in a second, but I wanna frame it in its genre first, 'cause you know that's what I love.
I like- Mm-hmm ... we gotta give the context. So, um- I talked about wisdom literature and how it, it's kind of a genre, a literary thing that happens kind of all through the Mediterranean world. But scholars have noticed there's two kinds. There's what's called, they call the standard way of writing wisdom literature, so standard wisdom, and then there's speculative wisdom.
Now, don't get freaked out by any of those words. It's just a way for scholars to sort of look at the way that the text thinks about wisdom and how to live a good life. And Proverbs is standard, so it would be, "If you do this, here's what you get." It's got that sort of really nice stark two ways, right?
There's wisdom, there's folly. You wanna stick with that. Ecclesiastes actually is considered speculative wisdom, meaning that it's not as direct. The two ways aren't as clear, right? In Ecclesiastes or any other kind of speculative wisdom literature, you get to the point where life is a little messy, right?
Now, I think, like, we've been talking about, like, baptism and eight-year-old kids, right, and, like, help them see and think about the atonement and covenants in a specific way. But, you know, by the time you're 30 you're like, you're like, "Life is a little more complicated than when I was eight." You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel like Proverbs is that optimistic, forward-looking, and then you get to Ecclesiastes, and it's kind of like you're looking back on life, and it was a lot messier than you thought. Yes. I like that. Oh, well, you're looking at choices, and with all of this collective wisdom, ding, ding, ding, right, that you've gained from living, just living a human life through your teens, through your 20s, whatever, right?
Like, you look... You have that perspective, and you have the teachings of your father and your mother, right? You have their instruction and Torah, and you, you know, you have a s- foundation that you're working on. But sometimes you can hit kind of gnarly problems, you know? Or you can hit things that you're like, "I don't know.
There maybe isn't just one right choice. There might be a couple of right choices," or, "I don't know. I really did my best there, but I'm not sure it was the best thing." Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. So life is, I think, in a way, there is that ice, that essential two ways, right? The wise way or folly, right? And you wanna follow that.
But it can also be complicated. And so in ancient Mediterranean wisdom literature, the speculative genre of wisdom literature takes on those more challenging elements, right? So Ecclesiastes does that. It takes on the more challenging elements of living a human life. And just to know that it's... So it is the same kind of writing as Proverbs, but it's just a different take on it.
Does that make sense? Job is another one of these that's considered speculative by scholars because it's asking these really hard questions, right? Mm-hmm. Questions that an eight-year-old would be like, "I don't even know what you're talking about," right? But a 30 or a 40 or a 50 or a 60-year- Yeah ... old would be like, "I know what you're talking about," right?
So I think, uh, just to appreciate that the tones are different because That it's a very specific kind of literary style, and we have examples of standard and speculative literature across the Mediterranean. And it also shows up in the biblical text. So when you know that it's kind of writing like that, then you can appreciate the tone that it's taking.
But also, I think we lose a lot in the translation. I was looking around to check to see, like, what's the scholarly consensus on the best translation, and coolly enough, it- most scholars land on King James, that it is the best translation for the poetic essence. But it's still complicated, and you miss, in the English, the poetry of it.
It's got a rhythm, even a meter. You could almost- Oh, really? ... even like sing it. Yeah. It's got, it's got ... And it's set up in very specific structures. So it's also probably kinda late in biblical history. It's, it's got a lot of loan words from Persia, so that means it may have come after, like in the history of Israel, like, when they're coming back to rebuild the temple after- Oh
the king- The exile ... lets them come back, right? So they've got- Got it ... to stay in dialogue with that culture as well, right? Like, they've had the Babylon captivity, and then Persia is now sort of the reigning imperial power of that area of the world. At that point, they get to go back. So it's got a lot of influence.
So probably, like, the 4th century BCE is kind of influencing this. And when it starts with that, that verse, chapter two, um, it's so ... It can seem really depressing, right? I remember thinking that. "Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher," or Qoheleth is the name of the book, which is an interesting word all of its own.
I'll, I'll talk about it in a sec if we have time. Um, "Vanity of vanities. All is vanity." And that word in Hebrew is hevel Kind of an, a breathy word, like a he. It's a he bet lamed, Hevel. It's the same root probably, not everyone agrees with this, but it's maybe the same root as Abel, the story of Cain and Abel- Oh, yeah
in Genesis, right? I see that. So some scholars think that this is sort of evoking that moment in human history. Right after, right, we get the Garden of Eden, we get the two ways, that sort of question of choice. They leave the garden, and then they have these two sons, and then in the story of Abel, Abel dies, and he's killed by his brother.
So this sort of, the crisis of, of m- murder, deep sin, loss, death, really is just sort of right there in, in your presence, right? So not to get too serious, but that's maybe, um, what's being alluded to, right? It, and some scholars don't think it's the same connection, it's just a, a similar word, a word that sounds the same but maybe is a different root.
Um, but some scholars think it is related to that story of Abel, right? Hmm. But the idea of it is, like, you can leave paradise, and then suddenly, crash, there's the world, right, as it is, and it's time and change and things aren't consistent, right? And we're, we're here alone. We're not alone, but we're here making, uh, choices with our own agency and having to learn from those choices, right?
Like, it's, it's that sort of element of the plan Oh, well then verse three and four make perfect sense if that's the storyline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you see? I've never connected it. Yeah. Well, 'cause re- three then s- if it is talking about Abel, "What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
One generation passeth away and another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever." Like- Yeah ... if it is, like what's the point of all the work he even did in the field? Yeah. 'Cause then he died. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Exactly. That's cool. And the word hevel means fleeting, like a breath. Mm-hmm. Or like, um, it almost...
And it, it's a, a, a puff of breath, but it's very ephemeral, right? Like, um, you know, like when it's cold outside and you, you puff and you can see your breath for a second, and then it disappears, right? Yeah. Picture that, right? But, but things, things don't stay the same, right? Like, things change, especially in mortality, right?
Uh, things end. Now, outside of mortality they don't, and in a way that's very much what, uh, the standard wisdom literature is trying to point you to, right? Wisdom is this cosmic truth and justice, but in the temporal world, down here in mortality, it's not, right? Like, there's time. Things don't stay the same.
That means where there's time, that means there's change, right? So it can be kind of a, it's, it can, there can be sorrow. There can be ache, right? There can be things stay, they're there one minute, and they're not there the next, right? So life can feel a little bit unstable, a little shaky, a little ephemeral, and that's what Ecclesiastes, I think, um, in large part is addressing and kind of pointing to.
And you'll see it. If you read it, there's a lot of allusions to time and the seasons and s- Yeah ... and stars and sun, all of the ways that they would mark time and the change of time in their ancient world, right? Without clocks and without, right? Like, you know, without, um, Cupertino time or whatever, right?
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right where we check to see, right? So there's, there's sort of the ways that they measure change in the world. And there is a wisdom, and there's... I'm kind of pulling this in from different world traditions. There is a wisdom in change, right? Like, the temporality of it. Because, um, it, it, it can be that the thing that you most love, right, like the thing that's making you the most happy in this moment, right, uh, because time moves on and things change, it can disappear, right?
So that can feel like a downside, but also you can see this in Ecclesiastes, that if, if the thing you love can disappear or change in that temporality, the thing that you don't love, the trial, the difficulty- Yeah ... the thing that's really challenging you, that also goes away, right? Yeah. So there is a blessing in time and in temporality, and in things being ephemeral and not sort of staying exactly as you might want them or as just as they are, right?
So what you love might go away for a moment, right? Because we have the eternal plan. We have... I think that's what then makes the atonement and covenant so special and precious is that it's a way to sort of go above the temporality, and the things that you love and the things and the people that are precious to you eventually will not be gone away, right?
Like we'll all be- Wow ... together. We'll be sealed together, right? And through the atonement be with each other, right? So that ephemerality is lost. But, and it takes you back to Eden, right, which is where we left when we first met. Right. That's a cool connection. But in life sometimes, I mean, you just have to sort of acknowledge, right?
Like, things change, and it can be a blessing and it can be hurty. Hurty, as my friend says. Hurty. I like that. I just renamed Ecclesiastes to the nothing is permanent book. Yes. That's how I read it. That's how I read it. Now, I, there's other scholars who see different things in this. Some- Mm-hmm ... see it as deeply pessimistic.
Um, I can't see it as deeply pessimistic, but I can see it as deeply realistic, right? Yes. Yeah. Like that. The way that it, it's, it addresses what life is like. So- Very cool ... I mean, it's a, it's a fairly, fairly hefty book. It's not the longest, but there's several chapters. So, um, I just picked the one chapter that was really speaking to me to sort of play with.
But look, as you go through it, you'll see that it's, it's sort of a motif through the whole thing. Temporality. Things change. Things are not the same. They change like a vapor, right? Mm-hmm But there is a beauty in it, and like I shared in the beginning, right, God's made all of this. Temporality exists because God wants it to exist, right?
Yeah. So there is a beauty in that temporality and in things changing. So you know this. L- let's go to chapter three. Everybody knows this. You might start singing a couple of different songs, right? "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven," right? "A time to be born, a time to die, a time to plant, a time to pluck up that which is planted."
So there's all kinds of moments in this temporality where things can express themselves, and you notice that they express themselves in opposites, right? Mm-hmm. So there's that duality, the, the two ways, right? Wisdom, folly, life, death, right? There is always opposition in the world, and we know that, right, from our most sacred liturgies.
Like in the temple, right, we have this sense, and also Lehi in the Book of Mormon. There's opposition in all things. Lehi is so great with wisdom literature. I feel like he's just, like... it's just wisdom literature wherever he speaks. But, but there's that sense of, of, um, a duality and opposites that exist in temporality, right?
Mm-hmm. And so existing in those, if you have joy, you also have pain. If you have pain, you also have joy, right? So to, to fully appreciate both sides of those, I think, is what's happening in chapter three. If I can just share a personal story. Please. I, I was thinking about this, and I, I think I've mentioned, like, this is kind of a time of, of transitions and some, um, challenges and just sort of like lots...
transitions on kind of every angle, and I'm, I'm thinking about... It makes me appreciate all of the beauty that is currently present and then also, um, all of the sacrifice that I've gone through to get to these places, right? Um, and I was thinking about grad school, which was a similar moment. There was a moment right in the middle of my PhD school where I knew enough to, like...
I wasn't scared that I didn't know what was going on anymore. I was, like, scared because I was like, "Can I actually accomplish all that I'm supposed to?" Right? And it was, it was pressure. Every day just pressure, so much. Uh, it sounds awesome, but I... you know, like traveling to, to Jerusalem to do my research and then trying to manage all of it.
I mean, it was awesome and hard all at the same time, right? The opposites existed together, and you just sort of took them as they came. And I remember thinking, "I don't know if I'll be happy again." Mm. I actually had that thought. You know, like, I was looking back to, um, like my time teaching at BYU and how sweet it was and, and i- i- it w- and it had its challenges, too, but really it was just a really sweet time and I was like, "Well, I, uh, that must be lost.
That just must be gone for me forever," right? Not knowing what was gonna happen, right? Not knowing, um, all of the amazing things that would open up so that I could be where I wanna be, teaching and doing what I'm doing. I knew that was the goal, but I was just like, "Right now I'm just in the hardness of it."
I'm sure you guys can relate, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But it, it, it wasn't... I got through that moment, and then I, I wasn't even as happy as I am now, but looking back, like finishing the exams or even, like, defending my dissertation, I remember, like I just had to take a minute. My friends came to meet me with balloons and like, "We wanna take you out to lunch," but I was like, "I just kinda need a minute to just sit with what just happened," right?
Mm-hmm. Like, I just walked through this furnace, and now I'm out, and I'm not the same. I, I have this amazing credential, I have this amazing knowledge, I've had these amazing experiences, good and bad, and I'm not the same person, and I just need a minute to sit with it and sort of take it all in. And now I look back on grad school and it was like, oh, it was so hard, but it was so good, right?
And maybe hindsight's the gift. Maybe that's the gift- Yeah ... to go. You think that it- Maybe that's when you see the front of the tapestry. Mm-hmm. Yes, Jen. I think you're right. Ah. I totally agree. Erin. Yes. So good. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Okay, that was such a good discussion. You guys, you nailed it, knocked it out of the park.
That was one of the best discussions I've ever had of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. Excellent. Thank you. You're done. That's it. Wow. Okay, so just do this. Gather your thoughts and just tell me what notes did you take, what eternal truth did you learn, or what's your takeaway from our discussion today? I love Jen's tapestry.
Mm-hmm. That, I think it, it just exactly was what we were talking about, but it also really spoke to me. I really appreciated what you had to say, just for me personally, what's going on. You're right. It's messy behind it, right? But when we walk through and we see the beauty of what we just created, right, through our choices and with God's help, yeah, that's really beautiful.
It's such a great image. Thanks, Jen. Thank you. I love that image. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A- and I love the, just the sacredness of wisdom. I, I love the embodying it in a woman. It, it, I relate to that, and I, I love that sense of the, the value of the wisdom that I impart to my own children and my own family, that that, it comes from a heavenly place and a sacred place.
Very good. Jen, I can't wait for you to teach Ecclesiastes to your prisoners. Jen works in the prison. But boy, talk about a good lesson we just learned from Carli to those prisoners. Yeah. My ladies will be great. I've, I love my ladies out there at the prison. They're wonderful. And can I, can I throw out a shout-out to you, Tammy, too?
Oh. I love the eshet chayil. I love what you did. That's- Aw ... e- every time you teach it, it's just exquisite. The- It's my favorite. Mm-hmm. Well, I was so depressed all those years thinking that I had to be that in order to be virtuous. And then God's like, "You need to learn Hebrew and then read it," and I'm like, "Hold on.
I could do that." So good. I could be a covenant keeper. I'm not gonna sew clothes. I'm certainly not gonna go afar to get food for my family. Geez, no way. So good. Okay, here's my favorite parts of today. Uh, and so I echo what Carli said 'cause that stitch thing, Jen, brilliant. But Jen, I also loved so much where you taught us that for us, our verbs tend to be a thought bubble.
That was so good because in Hebrew, it's not a thought bubble, it's a ritual act. Like, I wrote that down in my scriptures. And so you're right, and I have to remember that when I go and read Hebrew because their verbs are action-oriented, and so that was, what a great reminder and a great way to read scripture.
And then of course, your Relief Society day. Sweet Alice. Loved that story. Yeah. Um, Carli, thank you so much for teaching us the beginning of Ecclesiastes, the possibility of the name Abel and vanity. That was a very cool connection. But I did love that when you were talking about will I ever be happy again, and the wisdom that you got that you were, and it just made me think, and I don't even know if you remember you said this, but it's what I heard, when you were talking about the word awe to reverence the Lord, and you are a perfect example of someone who's reverenced the Lord because you said, "In the act of having awe, then the wisdom of the divine can move you to where he needs you to be."
That's what I wrote down that you said. Mm-hmm. And it, and I love that, that when we honor him, and Jen taught us, when we trust him and not lean to our own understanding, that's when wisdom of the divine can then say, "Okay, let's move, and here's where I need you to be." So such a great lesson. The Spirit was so strong today.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. Awesome. Well, what eternal truth did you learn? I would love for you to share. That was an intense discussion involving Hebrew and so much just s- ah, scholarship. I loved it. So do this, comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
And go there anyway, it's where we're gonna have links to the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our perfect study group participants were Jennifer Neilson Scott and Carli, Dr. Carli Anderson. I don't wanna forget that. She earned it. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and oh, please remember that you are Elohim's favorite