The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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Segment 1
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One thing that the Lord asks prophets to do is warn the people about the consequences of sin. But another thing that the Lord asks prophets to do is to encourage people about the consequences of turning to Him. The Bible is filled with warnings, and it is also filled with hope, so much hope. This week's study of Isaiah 13 through 35 contains messages of warning and hope, cautions and confidences, admonishments and optimism.
And when these chapters in Isaiah are viewed this way, we can believe, as Isaiah chapter 33 verse 22 says, "He will save us." Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.
I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study. Just like my longtime listening friend Alicia Larson, she was on the hosting staff at BYU Education Week, did it for free.
Alicia, it was so good to meet you. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. But lately we've just had one, which I really like because these are professors and teachers from BYU, and we've got one today. We have Dr. Josh Sears. Hi, Josh. Hey. Okay. Josh teaches, he's a professor of Ancient Scripture, teaches religion at BYU.
And I just have to say this because it's pretty cool. He has a book out. It's called A Modern Guide to an Old Testament, which I love that title. Rather than a Modern Guide to the Old Testament, to an Old Testament. Why was that... I love... Tell me why you named it that. The honest answer is that Deseret Book picked the title.
Oh. But yeah, they, we just- Sure ... we just loved the way it pairs the, the A Modern Guide with a, an Old Testament. It was just about the parallelism and having something catchy. Yeah. That's the honest truth. Well, I like that because it is an Old Testament rather than the Old Testament, so, 'cause there's so many testaments, so I thought that was pretty cool.
Yeah. The Book of Mormon's a pretty old testament, too. Yeah. If you think about it. That's exactly right. And this book you can find at Deseret Book. And so if anyone's looking for, uh, another resource to help them with the new teaching schedule that we have, and you want more insight into the Old Testament, I highly recommend this book.
It is awesome, and Josh does a great job breaking things down. But there's some exciting news for Josh, too. Talking about breaking things down and why we have him on this episode, Josh, tell the listeners what you're currently doing. So I, I teach at BYU. I teach Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament classes, and one thing I'm involved with right now that I'm really excited about is for BYU independent study, they make a lot of online classes that people can take, and I'm wrapping up right now creating their new online Isaiah class.
So that's been a lot of fun to do a deep dive into Isaiah and just, um, you know, really explore it in a rich, new way for this class. It's been, it's just been fantastic. Well, and that's what we get to do today, is we get to explore these chapters with you, and I love how you said, "in a rich, new way." So this is gonna be really fun today because Josh sent me some talking points, and I just, reading over those, I was like, "This is gonna be fun."
So I created a little outline, and we're just gonna have a great time with these chapters in Isaiah. So for anyone that's like, "Isaiah," or struggling with it, hold because Josh is gonna help us have some fun. So if you wanna know more about my guest, you can read his bio and see his picture, which are in our show notes, and you can find that at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
So everyone grab your scriptures, and you're gonna want something to mark them with. And let's dig into Isaiah 13 through 35. Okay. The very first thing, Josh, that I always ask my guests, mostly always, but I thought I'd ask you today, is as you were preparing for this episode and studying these specific scriptures in Isaiah, what did the Holy Ghost teach you overall?
Yeah, as I was going through, I think there's, there's one passage that just stuck out to me in particular, uh, so we'll just jump in there. I'll just read it. Yeah. It's in cha- Isaiah 25:6,7,8,9, and it's just describing what things are gonna be like eventually. It says, "And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast."
And I just love that image that you get elsewhere in scripture of getting together with the Lord and having a dinner party, right? Mm-hmm. Just the communion that you share there. Verse 7, "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people and the veil that is spread over all nations.
And he will swallow up death in victory. And the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces, and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off the earth, for the Lord hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God. We have waited for him, and he will save us. This is the Lord.
We have waited for him. We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.'" Mm. And it just, it just struck me what a beautiful image that is. We go through such hard things. We go through hard things personally. Our families go through rough things. As a nation, we have hard times. The world is just full of all these problems.
And I, I love this picture of people in the future saying, "We waited on the Lord, and he came through for us. Things are finally at peace. Things are finally good, and he's wiped away every tear that was shed." It's just a beautiful image and a reminder that even though in this life we shall have tribulation, Jesus has overcome the world, and that as we wait patiently and have hope in him, everything is gonna be okay.
Oh, I love that, Josh. So that just struck me extra powerfully as I was reading through because there's just so much turmoil going on- Yeah ... in various ways and levels, and I just love the fact that we can have confidence that in the Savior, there's peace and there's rest, and he will have ultimate victory.
Oh, that is very powerful. I would love to just connect what you just said to Tamara Runia's talk. She's the counselor in the Young Women General Presidency, and it was the talk she gave at BYU Women's Conference. And it was so beautiful 'cause at the very, very end it reminds me of what you just shared because she said, "When he comes, I will fall at his feet, and my tears will bathe his feet with my tears."
And she said, "And then I will hug him," but then I love that she said, "I will look back at the path I just walked and said, 'That was hard.'" Like, that was hard. And the Savior will be like, "I know." And just this idea of like, I have waited my whole life for you. I have, I have walked that hard path. Like you said, people have hard things right now, and we definitely do.
And I just love this idea, because I imagine me thinking, when it says we have waited, I imagine me thinking like, "Oh, it was true like I had hoped." Like it, it, it all makes sense now. It was totally worth the wait. That's how I think of it. It was worth the wait, wasn't it? So that's a great way to think of it, Josh.
Thank you so much for sharing those verses. Okay, so let's do this then. Grab something to mark your scriptures if you haven't already marked those verses, because those were so good, and let's dig into Isaiah 13 in the next segment.
Segment 2
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Okay, first things first, I have a sound that I wanna play for you. And if I were teaching in any capacity this Sunday, I would absolutely start the lesson by asking my students to listen to this, and if you're in primary, I'd ask my kids to do this. So here's the sound, Josh, and I wanna see if you can tell me what it is.
All right, Josh, what's that sound? That sounded like a wolf howling. Yes. Perfect. Can you imagine how fun it would be to ask primary kids to howl? I think it'd be fun to have the adults do it, too. I don't know why the primary kids get all the fun in Sunday school. Amen. Have your adults howl. Who c- y- you know every ward has someone that will howl.
I love it. Let's turn to Isaiah 13:6 and find out what that sound has to do with this verse, 'cause there's a very specific word right here. So in Isaiah 13:6 it says, "Howl ye." So Joshua, I asked you to explain this to us. Like, what are we being asked to howl about, and what do these verses in Isaiah 13:6 and 9 teach us?
Yeah. These chapters of Isaiah we're reading today have a lot of prophecies regarding foreign nations that are around Israel. A lot of these nations are wicked and violent, and there's a lot of judgment sorts of images that come. So let's read some of these verses. So verse, Isaiah 13:6, "Howl ye," like a command, everyone to wail.
Just, just scream. Oh, okay. "For the day of the Lord is at hand, and it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands faint, and every man's heart shall melt. They shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrow shall take hold of them. They shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth. They shall be amazed at one another.
Their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the Lord cometh cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate. And he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Whoa. Those are some- Those are some intense verses. Yes, they are. Those are some of the verses that just make you go, "What am I even reading?"
Well, especially 'cause you start out with this howlie, but I love how you said wail. Like, be loud about this. But then it says to be loud about the day of the Lord, and I noticed it has it twice, in verse six and in verse nine. Like, what are we talking about the day of the Lord? Yeah, the day of the Lord, this is a technical term that's used not just by Isaiah, but several prophets in the Old Testament, and they've got a pretty consistent meaning for what they mean by this.
Okay. The day of the Lord is s- a time, an event, where Jehovah comes out in judgment against the wicked. Wow. So in this case, in Isaiah 13, the immediate context is it's a prophecy, um, about the nation of Babylon and how Babylon's gonna fall, and because of all its wickedness and its violence, it's gonna be brought down.
And of course, that can be symbolic of other types of, um, prideful, wicked nations falling in other times. But the day of the Lord are these events in history, some which are past, some which are future, where Jehovah comes and He's saying, "I'm not letting this go on anymore. You guys are being oppressive.
You're, you're being wicked. You're being violent, and I'm putting a stop to this, even if it's gonna be through all these calamities." And often these descriptions of the day of the Lord are accompanied by this kind of imagery of, you know, destruction and people going, "Oh, no," and it, and it's kinda too late, and you get all those things.
And of course, for some people, these images can be disturbing. Mm-hmm. Because we think, "Wait, I go to general conference and I hear about God's our loving heavenly Father, and He's patient, and He's merciful," and then we read these descriptions of judgment and we think, "Whoa, that seemed..." There's a little whiplash that happens there.
And I think it really helps to step back and look at these descriptions in a larger context. One thing to keep in mind is that in the Old Testament, as the prophets conceive of this, the original day of the Lord, the one that's kind of the model for all these other events, is the story of the Exodus.
Mm-hmm. So, and we all know this, right? We've seen the movies. We love the stories. Prince of Egypt, so good. Prince of Egypt, yeah. Ten Commandments, where Moses is leading the children of out and the plagues and everything. And you've got this moment where they're passing through the Red Sea, and they realize the Egyptian army is chasing them.
And this moment where the Israelites are desperately trying... You know, the movies, you know, aid our imaginations here. They're desperately trying to get beyond the water, get to safety, and then there's that dramatic moment where Jehovah closes up the sea, and it takes out the Egyptian army, and the chariots, and, uh, all the weapons and everything else.
And the important thing about that story, and one reason it's a model, is because it demonstrates an important dynamic here, that in a day of the Lord moment, Jehovah just isn't coming out just to destroy the wicked 'cause He's, He's mad and He's furious. These are fundamentally acts of rescue. If He hadn't done anything, if He had said, "Oh, Egyptians, please stop," and they didn't listen and they kept on going, they would have killed those Israelites, and maybe any of the survivors would have been hauled back into slavery.
But the Israelites had been oppressed. They were being afflicted by these oppressors who had been warned many times. But Jehovah stepped in to rescue them, and the Israelites still cel- um, and Jewish people still celebrate that to this day, the fact that they were rescued from their enemies. And I think that dynamic is really important, 'cause whenever you look for these warnings of judgment and these day of the Lord images in the Old Testament, and in the Book of Mormon, if you look closely enough, you can almost always find that behind somebody getting destroyed is somebody else that was getting oppressed, that was being hurt by the people that are the targets of, um, God's judgments right here.
So if we see these as acts of rescue, we can recognize that He's not just, you know, being furious and, "I'm just gonna come destroy you all until I can cool my anger here." That He hurts- Mm-hmm ... because some of His children are suffering, and being oppressed, and being killed by others. And after warnings have failed, eventually there's a point where He's gotta stop in and put a stop to this, even if it's by forceful means.
So I'll just show one more example where this pops up that can help us see this a little bit. Yeah. If we jump to another part of Isaiah, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheat and go ahead to a future week if that's okay. Yes. Isaiah 43 has another place where it's talking about the Babylonians. Being taken out.
Okay. So warnings against the Babylonians, um, because Babylon had destroyed Jerusalem. They've exiled- Mm-hmm ... the Jews to Babylon. They're in captivity, they're slaves, and he wants to rescue them. And what's interesting is you can see the Exodus echoes in the descriptions here. So as I read Isaiah 43:14-17, everyone should see if you can hear the images of the Exodus being recycled here for this new day of the Lord "Thus saith the Lord your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cries in the ships. I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your king. Thus saith the Lord, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters. Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power.
They shall lie down together. They shall not rise. They are extinct. They are quenched as tow." Tow being the little wick of a candle when you snuff it out. Wow. So, so you can hear that, right? The going through the water- Yes ... the chariots and the horses. It's using the images of the Exodus, but we're not talking about the Egyptians, we're talking about the Babylonians.
But the prophets will do this all the time. They'll say, "God rescued us in the Exodus, and now that we have new oppressors in our lives, he's gonna rescue us again." So they connect- Mm-hmm ... these stories together into one big epic story of redemption where Jehovah has his peoples' back. Wow. So yeah, we, we get that these images of destruction sometimes are disturbing, and they're violent- Mm-hmm
and they make us recoil. And, you know, some of the images are from their ancient culture, and we have to kind of navigate that some. But I think it helps to recognize God's motivations here, that he's not just willy-nilly or because he's losing his temper just coming out and smacking some people. Mm-hmm. He hurts when people are being oppressed, and he wants to rescue, especially people that are praying to him for help.
And that fundamentally is what the day of the Lord really is. It's acts of judgment against the wicked in order to rescue the righteous and the oppressed. Well, now what I'm thinking is th- what you've just taught me is so awesome, because I'm going through scripture and I'm thinking of all the times the story of the Exodus story is brought up.
Specifically in the Book of Mormon, they bring it up all the time as this foundational story that everybody understands, and now I love it so much more because when they bring it up, they're bringing it up as a reason to maybe convince people that God really does exist. Like, you remember the story of Exodus, how often that happens in the Book of Mormon.
You remember how Moses helped the people out of Egypt. And now what I love is what you taught me is when they're saying that, they're also saying, "And remember, he didn't just hurt the wicked, but he saved the righteous." Like, what a great reminder that every time that story is brought up, especially for us now, every time I read it in scripture, I'm gonna hopefully remember, like, yes, this is a story of redemption.
This is a story... I love how you said the day of the Lord is judgment against the wicked and a rescue for the righteous. Like, that is so great to understand that twofold. Like, it's, it's not all sad doom and gloom, but there's so much hope attached to that story as well. And it's a warning to all of us too, even as the covenant people- Mm-hmm
to make sure we're on the right side of the equation. Yes. Because there's other places in the Book of Isaiah where the Israelites themselves are the target of God's warnings. Absolutely. It'll talk about the Day of the Lord, for example, Isaiah chapter two, where it's warning the Day of the Lord is coming, and it's because the Israelites themselves have gotten so corrupt that, uh, Isaiah talks about how you've got the wealthy and the powerful in Judahite society are oppressing the poor and the needy and not coming to their aid, and even exploiting them.
And Isaiah says, "Why are you grinding on the faces of the poor? What about the wor- the widows and the orphans?" Mm-hmm. Right? Um, but the, yeah, Israelite society itself has become oppressive, and now the Day of the Lord is centered on them. Mm-hmm. So we wanna make sure in our lives we're hearkening the words of the prophets, that we're caring for those, and making sure that we are alleviating pain and suffering- Yes
in society around us, and not contributing to other people's suffering. Oh, Josh, thank you so much. That was a great discussion of those verses. Okay, so you talked about how the Babylon is falling, and that the people are being prepared for this. And in the next segment, one of the things I like that you brought up that we get to talk about is we're gonna discuss how the people prepared themselves, and even what they built to prepare for the Days of the Lord, and how it can also help us be ready for that day.
We'll do that next.
Segment 3
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Josh, tell me what the people built, because it seems like they were anxiously engaged in being protected, but what went wrong in this story? Yeah, so a lot of these chapters of Isaiah are set during Isaiah's lifetime, and the crisis looming on the horizon for them is the Assyrian Empire. Mm-hmm. Isaiah lives during the time of King Hezekiah, so we can read about him at the end of 2 Kings, and they know that sooner or later these Assyrians are gonna come and they're probably gonna attack their kingdom, which does eventually happen.
So they weren't- ... worried for nothing. Yeah, spoiler alert. Yeah. So i- in Kings and in Isaiah, it talks about they made several physical preparations to prepare for this siege, and they had good reason to try to be prepared because the Assyrians had an infamously famous army. They were conquering country after country.
Their empire was expanding through, uh, blood and fire, and everyone was worried about an Assyrian invasion. And weren't the Assyrians... I remember reading in the institute manual when I was teaching seminary and institute that it describes the Assyrians as pretty ruthless. Like, they were so gross in the ways that they tortured their enemies.
And what they did, like, I remember reading they would put their heads on a stick in the cities. Like, so gross, and they were to be feared, absolutely. Is that correct? Yeah. Everybody hated them, because the... what they would do is conquer your country, make you sign a vassal agreement, which is a fancy way of saying you agree to give them money every year, and in exchange, they won't destroy you.
So it's kind of like- Wow ... paying the mob for protection. Totally is. Right? Oh my gosh. So nobody likes that situation. And we have the ima- what you describe, we have in images and reliefs from the ancient Near East that shows the devastation when people went back on these vassal agreements, the Assyrians...
And if you, if you made them come conquer you again, then they were upset. So then they would destroy you and torture you to send a message to the other vassals saying, "Don't you rebel. You keep sending us the money." So we have images, you know, of people on poles and piles of hands- Mm-hmm ... and all these things.
They were just really bad. So w- there was good reason for the Judahites and the Israelites to be scared- Mm-hmm ... and to think, "We've gotta be as prepared as we can be in the event of an Assyrian invasion." Okay. Awesome. Carry on. So Isaiah describes in Isaiah chapter 22 some of the preparations they've been making.
So verse eight, "And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armor of the house of the forest." Verse nine: "Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many. And ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool, and ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses ye have broken down to fortify the wall.
Ye have also made a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool." So anyway- You have to explain all that. What are we talking about? What are breaches? I'm sure an archeologist could go through and tell you even more specific details, but the, the basic picture is very clear, that they are making physical preparations.
When it talks about breaches in the city, these are like places where their protective wall- Mm-hmm ... is not fortified. Maybe- Right ... it's kind of crumbled and run down, and so they're repairing the walls and getting ready for a siege. So there's references here to gathering the water of the lower pool. Some of your listeners have maybe been to Israel, and if so, some of them might have been to what's known as Hezekiah's Tunnel- Okay
where the Gihon Spring, which was the water source of Jerusalem, was outside the city walls, which isn't great in a siege 'cause you want access to your water. Mm-hmm. So Hezekiah, again, this is Isaiah's lifetime, had his engineers build an underground tunnel to channel the water from outside. It goes into the city and then- It's brilliant
collects in a pool on the inside. Yeah. And this, it's, it's an amazing feat of engineering that they actually pulled this off, and it's, it's so fun to go through. Uh, when we were in Israel, my kids actually, on Christmas morning, we opened our presents, and then we decided what to do the rest of the day and they said, "Let's go to Hezekiah's Tunnel again."
They just- Oh, cool ... there's still water flowing through it, so you get all wet, and kids, you know, just, just kind of love that. And they're not hitting their head like the grown-ups- ... in the tunnel. That's awesome. Wow. So that's some of the preparations being made. There's also this reference to the houses you have broken down to fortify the wall, and we've actually discovered this, we've discovered this archaeologically 'cause there's still remnants of the wall that Hezekiah built to fortify the city.
Mm-hmm. Um, and there's places where you can see the wall cut right through existing homes 'cause there's only so many places you can put a wall. So they would break down these homes and use the stones to fortify the wall. So they were serious, and this was a big inconvenience, obviously. Wow. People were losing their homes over this.
But the defense of the city was so crucial, they just had to get this wall built. And in Jerusalem today, you go to the Jewish Quarter, there's a place where they've left a big open spot going deep down in the ground, and you can still see the foundations of part of this wall there. Hmm. So that's some of the stuff Isaiah's talking about.
They're fortifying the walls. They're building up their armories. They're collecting the water source. They want to get as prepared as they can for this siege. But then at the end of verse 11 comes the kicker Isaiah says, "But ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago."
Ooh. The maker and the fashioner, of course, is the creator, God. Mm-hmm. Who, who's made all this stuff. He, he's made the city, and the stones, and the water, and all, all these aspects of the earth. And Isaiah's saying, "Hey, you guys are spending so much time, all this money, all this effort that you're pouring in to your physical preparations, but you've forgotten something.
You've forgotten to look to the most important person that you could be looking to for your defense and your refuge in this, um, potential invasion, and that's not good." No. These preparations are gonna mean nothing if you don't remember that Jehovah is the one who, by covenant, promises to protect those that are true and faithful to him.
Wow. So Josh, this is so great to think about, because how do we take these verses, then, and apply them to us? How are we today making all these preparations but sadly not looking to the maker? Yeah, I guess there's so many ways we can think about that. I, I guess so many of us, and this includes me, in our lives, we love to have control.
Mm-hmm. We want to plan. We wanna feel prepared. We, we don't like feeling risk. We don't like the unknown and what the scary things the future might bring. And we might think that the way to feel like we're in control is by trying to make our bank account as big as it can be. Mm-hmm. Or maybe, maybe f- as good as these things are, s- even something like food storage.
Yeah. We can put all our, all our faith in just that to see us through things, um, or, or whatever it is. But there's so many ways in which we can try to ins- protect ourselves against calamity, but the truth is we're not really in control of anything. We have so- I like that. I mean, we, we should be prepared.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't. We should be financially responsible. Food storage is, is great. Mm-hmm. We can do all these things we can do, but at the end of the day, nothing is gonna stop us from getting hit by a bus tomorrow- Mm-hmm ... or by s- you know, cancer striking a family member. In this life, so much is out of our control, and if we're not grounded in Jesus Christ and His covenant- Mm-hmm
promises to us, it's ultimately gonna feel really helpless, the fact that ultimately so much is out of our control. But when we trust in the Savior, what I love is that He ensures that because of the gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing can go permanently wrong. Oh, yeah. We might have disasters in the present.
We might have setbacks, and those, that's some of the risk that we have in mortality. But Jesus Christ ensures that He will take care of us, and in, in eternity we're gonna be okay. We're gonna get to where we need to be, and things are gonna work out all right. But if we forget Him, it's gonna go worse for us even in the short term.
Mm-hmm. 'Cause truly He's the only one who's in control. Oh, I think that's beautiful the way you said that. I wrote, 'cause when you were saying that, when you said we need to be grounded in Christ, and then I went back to this imagery. I love how you explained 8 through 11 because then I thought of all the effort and all the work that they put in to building up these walls and getting this ready, that this idea of do we build ourselves up in Christ.
Are we grounded in Him, and then do we build ourselves up in Him? 'Cause you're right, He is the only one who's in charge, and what a great message. Those verses would often go overlooked, and I love how you just explained them to us. So thank you so much for doing that. So then we have in this story line, in the next segment then, we get to discover what the Lord can be doing for us during the days of the Lord.
So we'll talk about that next.
Segment 4
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Josh, has there ever been a time in your life when you needed to run for cover or if you ever needed shelter? Wow. When you say shelter, the first thing comes to mind is the fact that, yeah, our family lived in Jerusalem from 2024 to 2025. And it was- Wow ... a time when there was a lot of warfare going on in the Middle East, and the, uh, the bomb sirens went off a lot, uh- Hmm
probably dozens of times that year. And so we trained the kids, and w- everybody knew that when, when those sirens goes off, there's s- designated shelters that we need to get to. We had 90 seconds in our apartment to get to the shelter room. And at school, the kids trained to do this. There's shelters in the school.
In fact, most public buildings in Israel have shelters because of the situation over there. So wherever we were, if we were out shopping, if we were driving around, if we were at the kids' school, if we were at home, we knew that we needed to get to shelter. And we were never in immediate danger. I don't want to make this sound like an overly dramatic thing, where we're however- hu- huddled fearing for our lives.
We were always very safe. Um, but there were risks in the area, and we were so grateful that there were shelters available, um, where we could feel secure and have our family there and just know that we were safe. How old were your kids? While we were there, they were 16, 13, 12, 9 and 5. Wow. That's amazing.
What was that like for them? Do they ever, do they ever talk about it now that you're home? Oh, yeah. They had a great time. They, they went to a school in Jerusalem. They had friends from all over the world. Um, it was just, just a wonderful experience for them to just be in this melting pot of so many cultures and languages.
That's incredible. Why were you there? What were you doing that year? I had teaching at the BYU Jerusalem Center. Oh, my goodness. What a cool opportunity. But that story, I love that you shared that because this idea of shelter, that was so real, so thank you for sharing that experience. There's a psalm of praise about shelter in Isaiah.
Let's turn to Isaiah, chapter 25. And I think this is interesting because Isaiah, he's gonna provide us with this song of Christ about nearly 700 years before he's even born. And there's some beautiful words in here that Josh is gonna tell us what they mean in Hebrew, and when you learn these in Hebrew, it changes the way we read it, as we've already learned from him.
So let's go to Isaiah, chapter 25, and we're gonna read just verses 4 and 5. And te- Josh, take us through these words and tell us what some of these things mean that will help us understand these verses better. Sure. Why don't I read it in two different translations- Perfect ... both because it'll help us with some of the words and because hearing it twice will help us to think about it.
So a little- Great ... repetition's good. So I'll read it first in the King James Version. Okay. So 25, verses 4 and 5. So speaking to Jehovah: "For thou has been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers as the heat in a dry place, even the heat with the shadow of a cloud. The branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low." Okay. And then I'll just read here from the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition just for a comparison. It's mostly the same.
"For you have been a refuge to the poor, a refuge to the needy in their distress, a shelter from the rainstorm, and a shade from the heat. When the blast of the ruthless was like a winter rainstorm, the noise of foreigners like heat in a dry place, you subdued the heat with the shade of clouds. The song of the ruthless was stilled."
Hmm. And there's some, I love these images in here. This just recognizing God's protective care in our lives. Mm-hmm. It talks about him being a strength to the poor and a strength to the needy There's, this is a description both, of course, of people who are, were literally poor and had very little, but also we could think of those that are poor in spirit that are going through difficult times, the strength that God brings to them.
This idea of being a refuge from the storm. You know, I talked about missiles flying overhead and getting into shelter. But even something simple like just running to shelter in a rainstorm, most of us have had an experience like that where just the relief you feel when you get out of something that you didn't- Mm-hmm
wanna be there. And w- this idea that Jehovah is a refuge from the storms of life more generally, death of a loved one, terrible argument, d- an awful breakup, loss of a job. He is a refuge, a place where we can find solace and comfort from these things that otherwise would just keep battering on us. Mm-hmm. A shadow from the heat.
I think all of us had the experience of having sun just coming down on us, and it won't go away, and how just getting into some shade just provides such relief because the temperature- Yeah ... just immediately cools, and you're out of that, that oppressive heat. Absolutely. What a great, what a great metaphor for the times in our life where the things that are beating on us just seem omnipresent.
It's just like the sun. It's just constant, and it hurts. Yeah. And you just wanna get out of it, and how cooling, um, the, the, it can feel when we turn to the Lord, and he can just shield us a little bit from that, even if for a moment, make us feel peace. Yeah. I, Josh, I hate the heat so much. Like, summer's not my favorite, and my kids know it.
I love every season, but when I get to summer, I have to gear up 'cause the heat, I can't take the heat. And I, this is kind of, my kids know this, I endure the whole summer. And about mid-August to late August, I reach this breaking point, and this happens every year, where I audibly say, "I have had it. I can't take it anymore."
And it almost seems like when I say that, the next week we get sort of this down in temperatures a little bit, so I have this bit of relief. I've noticed that the last couple years I kind of laugh 'cause I'm like, "I think God loves me that much, that He's gonna say, 'All right, we'll put it in the 80s for you.'"
And I was telling my kids that. But it's making me think of this because when you have that heat on you, I think every one of us reaches a breaking point where you're like, "I have had it. I can't take it anymore." And I love how you're explaining that He is our shadow. He's like, "Okay, just come to me. Let me be your shadow then, and I will, let me turn the temperature down a little bit for you.
Just turn to me, and I will do that." Like, that's the imagery I have in my mind is, is exactly, I just love that so much. But then I have a question in verse four. But it says, "When the blast of the terrible ones is a storm against the wall." Explain that, 'cause that is so crazy, especially the word blast in Hebrew, and who are the terrible ones?
Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah. Terrible ones is Hebrew aretz, and it can mean, like, people who are ruthless or oppressive or terrible. They're just antagonistic- Mm-hmm ... in some way. And, you know, sometimes in history you have literal enemies that are out to get you, sure. Yeah. Other times it's just maybe people or circumstances in your life that feel like they're out to get you.
For sure. Um, that are just antagonistic. And this, I have this image in verse four that they're as a storm against the wall. It's like the storm's trying to get you, but you're behind this wall that just stops it. It can't get in- Oh ... 'cause you're in the shelter. And it- Is that what the word blast implies, like a storm or what?
Yeah. It's, uh, just like a torrential rainstorm is coming at you, but you're okay because you've got this covering above you. Verse five also says, in the King James it has, "The branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low," but there's a little footnote in the Latter-day Saint edition of the Bible, uh, verse five that says, "Branch should actually be the word song."
It's zamir in Hebrew. Mm-hmm. So the song of these terrible ones, these afflicting ones, shall be brought low or silenced. So it's this image almost of people who are out to get you, and they're singing a song kind of mocking you or rejoicing in the, the terrible stuff you're going through. It's just these naysayers, right?
These voices that are just- Mm-hmm ... rejoicing in the fact that things aren't going good for you, and they're gonna be silenced. Wow. It's gonna just take away a- all these, these, these voices pecking at you. Now, I hope that people don't have too many people in their lives that are actually singing taunt songs at them.
There are, of course, bullies- Yeah ... who, who do similar things that are intentionally trying to goad you. Um, but sometimes it's just stuff that happens. It's just- Yeah ... bad things in life, and it just feels like everything's going wrong, and, and the world doesn't care. And I, I just love this image of God just silencing the negativity.
Mm-hmm. And, and we get to have some peace. Who exactly is the stranger that we're talking about here? Like, does it mean, like, someone you don't know, and then the Lord's mad at them? What are we talking about? Yeah. It's not stranger in the sense that you tell your kindergartner, "Don't take candy from a stranger."
Mm-hmm. The Hebrew word generally refers to foreigners, and depending on context, there's a lot of nuances to that. It can refer to, um, sometimes to refugees who come into your country, and that comes up lots of times in the Law of Moses where it commands the Israelites to care for widows, orphans, the poor, and the f- the strangers, these refugees who have come in.
So that was part of the obligation of the law was to care for these people in helpless, destitute situations. Sometimes the word can have a sense of resident aliens who have come in, and they're kind of working in your land, and there was legal protections for them to make sure they weren't abused by the Israelites who were in their native space.
And then sometimes it just refers to people who are outside of your sphere, um, maybe non-covenant peoples or people from another country. So there's a lot of nuances to that. Here in this chapter of Isaiah it talks about- Um, the, that these strangers kind of get stilled. And so in that context, it sounds like it's kind of people from outside generically, maybe just outside of your own social circle, and the kind of noise that they're giving you, that God's gonna quiet that.
Oh, perfect. Thank you. Great, great definition of stranger. And the thing that is so beautiful about these verses is we have the word strength in verse 4, and you've, you've taught about this where it also in the different translation was the word refuge. Is that right? Mm-hmm. So I think that's powerful because we have this idea that a refuge or, like, a fortress, but then on the same, on the next page over there in Isaiah chapter 26, it's in verse 4, it says, "Trust ye the Lord forever, for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength."
And that word strength is different than fortress or refuge. And tell us about that word right there, strength. 'Cause I want our listeners to see these two different w- um, ways you can define the word strength as it's connected- Yeah ... to the Lord. In chapter 26 verse 4, it's tzur, which has this idea of, like, it's like a rock, like a mountain, like a cliff.
It's, it's a place where you ... It's ... The reason it's a place of strength is because it's solid. It can offer protection. Um, you know, whether it's you're on top of the mountain so you're in advantage point, or you're in the shelter of a cave, w- you know, the, the solidness and the firmness of rocks is something that always invokes these images of strength and protection.
Mm-hmm. And that's what they're seeing in the Lord. He is that source of strength because He's like that rock that surrounds you. Oh, I like that so much. So I have a question for you because you're a dad. You have five kids. You lived in Israel. You've had all these experiences. And f- and then I love how also you said sometimes a terrible one can be a breakup.
Like, so many good things you said. I wanna know throughout your life, how have you been able to make the Lord a strength in your life? How has He become a cliff or a rock to you or a refuge? I guess the I don't know. I've, I've been going through different phases in my life, I've been realizing. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I was a teenager, and then a missionary, and then a young adult and newly married, and then I was in the, the baby phase for a while, and then I had slightly older kids.
And now I've got... I'm in the teenager phase, and in a couple years we'll have the first kids that have left the house on missions, and college, and things. So as I go through these phases, it just makes me think how much things change sometimes. This has been on, been on my mind too, because my wife has been going back through, uh, videos, home videos that we took in recent years and making compilation videos.
And so I'm seeing the kids, you know, as toddlers again, and you kind of miss- Yeah ... those days when they were small and cute and didn't talk too much yet. They're just adorable and give- Sure ... you love at everything you do. So, you know, all these different changes, and my life's gonna keep changing, and who, who knows what tomorrow's gonna bring.
But Jesus Christ, for me, has just been someone who doesn't change in the, in the best way. Mm-hmm. Where, you know, even though the kids grow old and they're eventually gonna abandon me and go off and live their own lives, And even though, um, family members who are older than me have started to pass away a- and leave, Jesus Christ today is the same savior who was with me since I was a small child, singing about him- Mm
in primary. He's still there, he still loves me, and he's not going anywhere. Mm-hmm. So I love that even though I... even as I lose people to death or to growing older, um, Jesus is always someone I can look to, and I can always talk to my heavenly Father, and they're just so near and present- Mm-hmm ... in ways that, um, is really unmatched by anybody else that I could possibly depend on in my life.
Josh, that was so powerful, because we didn't even talk about this, but I wrote my answer to the side, and it was pretty much the same thing you just said. 'Cause I wrote, "In my life, I look back at all the experiences I've had since I was little," and I go, "At the time that I was in it, I'm like, wow, that was so hard."
But then every phase of my life, like you said, as we're going through it, then I'm in something new and I'm like, "Nah, actually this is hard." And then I get past it, and then I'm in something new, and then I look back and I go, "Yeah, that wasn't hard. This is hard." And it just seems like wherever you are in your life, whatever you're going through, wow, okay, now this is a new level of hard.
I'm gonna need some help through this. And thank you for saying that while our lives do change, and all of our terrible ones, as you were, all of our terrible ones change, they're so different throughout e- our life. But God never changes. He has been the same God and same Jesus Christ since we were singing I Am a Child of God.
I think that is- That r- that rock, right? Yes. That abso- Firm, immovable. Like literally it doesn't move. Totally. I just... I love the imagery of that. Like it, that everlasting strength is- isn't going anywhere, hasn't gone anywhere, has consistently been there for us in our lives. And so knowing that he's that rock in chapter 26, then you can go back to chapter 25 and say, "Well, how could he not do all of that for us?
Of course he's gonna be our strength." Of course he's gonna be a shadow. Of course he's gonna defend us against the blast of the terrible ones. That's some of the best imagery ever. I love that so much, and how you described it against the wall. And so he is there for us, and I, I love the way you describe that.
And then going into what you shared at the very beginning, then you go into this great feast, the feast of fat things. I mean, that sounds like the best feast ever, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I'm hoping all my favorite bland foods are there. Onion rings, french fries. Like, I hope that's what it means, feast of fat things means, even though I'm sure there's a scriptural term to that.
But just how awesome those, those verses were that you shared with us. Connecting all of that now makes so much more sense. Very cool, Josh. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay. So now that we've learned what's in Isaiah 25, we get another witness that the Lord will help us, and we're gonna use a very scary picture to talk about this new thing in the next segment
Segment 5
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Josh, I have a picture for you, and I want you to describe to everybody what you're seeing So this is an image of, you've got God up in the clouds, and he's got a big flowing beard. He's holding a big sword, and he's looking down at this stormy ocean water, and the waters are churning, and there's lightning, and it's going crazy.
And there's a giant sea monster churning in the water, looking up at God and roaring at him. And you can see its long slithering tail and its big bat-like wings, and it's just a very dramatic pose as this, this dragon creature faces off against God holding the sword. Oh, it's so scary. I would love to show this in any class I was teaching and say, "Okay, everybody, give me your thoughts and feelings about it when you see it."
'Cause for when I saw it first time, I'm like, "Holy cow, that's a little frightening." Yeah. I've actually got this, uh, image framed on the wall of my home. What? It's, um, it's called The Destruction of Leviathan. It's by Gustave Doré. It's from the, the 19th century. So you can find this on the internet, just- Mm-hmm
Google the artist's name and Leviathan, and you'll, you'll find it freely online. But, um, yeah, it's one of my favorite images because it comes fr- from Isaiah. Oh, my word. What do your kids think about that picture on your wall? I had to explain it, but they think dragons are cool, so they- Oh, sure. Okay, that's pretty awesome.
I didn't even know that. Well, let's turn to Isaiah 27, and we're gonna look at verse one. And Josh, connect that picture then of the Leviathan to this scripture in Isaiah. This is so neat. All right. So chapter 27, verse one. "In that day, the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword," so that's your sword image from the picture.
Mm-hmm. "A sore and great and strong sword shall punish Leviathan, the piercing serpent, even Leviathan, that crooked serpent, and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Now you read that verse, and anyone who reads that's like, "Well, that's weird. Why is that in scripture?" What is it- Yeah, it is weird, but that's why I love the whole Old Testament.
I love the weirdness. Right. So tell us what this is really teaching us about. Yeah, so the, Isaiah is drawing on a cultural image that- Okay ... was not just Israel, it's the whole Ancient Near East has this shared motif about these, this primordial dragon, and it's called Leviathan here. There's other places in the Old Testament it's called Rahab, so you'll see that actually elsewhere in the Book of Isaiah, too, Leviathan or Rahab.
But what this is getting at is in the Ancient Near East, they pictured that the universe before creation happened was just chaos, that you have stuff, but everything is chaotic and, uh, you know, it's without form and void, as Genesis puts it, and there's no order to things. And all this chaos gets represented by a sea monster who's personified as this dragon creature.
So in a lot of Ancient Near Eastern myths, they'll use this, like the Enuma Elish is the creation story in Babylon, and it describes how the gods want to create everything. They want to create the world, and they want to create the stars, and they want to create humans and all these things. But there's this dragon sea monster creature, right?
Tiamat, who represents- Mm-hmm ... the forces of chaos and disorder and death and evil and all these bad things. And in the Enuma Elish, it describes how the gods have to have this battle with the sea monster, and they've got to slay it, and only once the beast is slain can then they proceed to bring order and life and goodness to the universe.
Wow. So this, this image of this monster representing these evil forces is throughout the Ancient Near East, and Isaiah, as other places in the Old Testament do, this is in Job and Psalms and e- elsewhere, he, he's drawing on that image to make an important teaching point here. Okay. Because in Isaiah's version of the story, it's not the gods of Babylon, of course, who are the heroes.
It's Jehovah now, and he's gonna, he has this face-off with this monster representing death and hell, and he's gonna take his sword and he's gonna slay the beast, and he's gonna win. And this is, it's such a powerful image. It even shows up in the Book of Mormon. I'll just flip there really quick. Okay. If you go to 2 Nephi 9, Jacob, who of course is born in the wilderness outside of Jerusalem, but he's raised by Israelites, and he's familiar with his cultural images here.
Jacob in ch- 2 Nephi chapter 9 is talking about the atonement of Jesus Christ, and death and sin and judgment and all these things. And in chapter 9 verse 10, Jacob just exclaims, "Oh, how great the goodness of our God, who prepareth a way for our escape from the grasp of this awful monster. Yea, that monster, death and hell, which I call the death of the body and also the death of the spirit."
So Book of Mormon scholars- Wow ... have made the case that Jacob is also drawing on this leviathan imagery from the ancient Near East where you personify death and hell as this monster. So he doesn't say sea monster here, but I, I would bet you that's what he has in mind is this dragon sea monster image here.
And it's a potent image for me because if you think about it, think of it in terms of sin. What some of us have felt what it's like to be... You've done something wrong, and you just feel so bad about it, or you have a sin you keep repeating, and it feels like a monster has grabbed you in its clutches, and it's refusing to let you go.
Mm-hmm. You're trying to p- repent, you're trying to do better, but the monster just doesn't wanna let go of its grip on you, and you're trying to get away, and it's just this terrifying image. Or if you take the monster as representing death. Mm-hmm. Many of us have felt the gut punch of someone close to us passing away, whether from old age- Yeah
or something unexpected and tragic. And it can feel like this, this creature, death, has snatched up our loved ones and just has them in its clutches, in its claws, and it refuses to let them go and come back to us, no matter how badly we want them to come back So I think, I think we can all relate to this kind of graphic image- Yeah
that Jacob has of this monster snatching people up. And yet his point is powerful: how great the goodness of our God who prepareth the way for our escape. Jesus Christ slew the beast- Mm-hmm ... through his own, through the sacrifice of his own blood. He conquered Satan, he conquered hell, he conquered death, he conquered sin, he conquered everything that's evil and wrong in our lives.
And so the monster has to release its grip. We're all set free. Yeah. So that's why I love this image. It's like I don't, I don't think- Yeah ... there's a literal sea monster that God is gonna have to slay. But as a symbol, it's so powerful. I, I just love it, the idea that Jesus is going to fight our battles.
He's not passively just lying back and saying, "I hope everything goes well for you. Good luck with that." Yeah. He stands up there, and he's gonna do whatever it takes, even if you're gonna visualize it as him taking a sword and chomping a beast to bits. But he does whatever it takes in his power and his determination to free us from anything that harms us, and to make sure that we can be safe and that we can be with our loved ones.
Mm-hmm. He's a warrior who steps up there and is not passive, but does Whatever it takes, and even if it was laying down his own life, which he did. Absolutely. Wow, Josh. Let's do this then, for everyone listening. Next to those verse- I'm so grateful you gave us that scr- uh, cross-reference, 2 Nephi 9:10. We're gonna do a God fights our battles scripture chain, or Jehovah will fight our battles.
And so I have a few verses, and y- Josh and I will each take turns reading these verses because we wanna really drive home this message, and we hope you fully believe that he really does fight our battles. And I th- I can't get over that you have this picture in your house. That is so cool. And when you go to the beginning where it says, "In that day, the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword," the word actually, down below in your footnote, it says hard.
So I'm imagining with this hard and great and strong sword. Now, now p- image that, and use this picture when you're teaching. And now here he is, he's gonna fight our battles with that sword. So let's go first. The first scripture is Exodus 14:14, and will you read that for us, Josh? Yeah. So this is as the people are terrified on the shores of the Red Sea, and Moses declares, "The Lord shall fight for you and ye shall hold your peace."
Love it. Okay, put, to next to that scripture you wanna put Nehemiah 4:20. And here's what it says. "In what place thereof ye hear the sound of the trumpet, resort ye thither unto us. Our God shall fight for us." The next one next to that is Isaiah 37:35. Jehovah declares, "For I will defend the city to save it, for my own sake and for my servant David's sake."
Awesome. Next to that verse, let's put Doctrine and Covenants Section 98 Verse 37. I love Section 98. This is where the Lord says, "The Lord of Sabaoth will hear your prayers," and that the prayers have entered into his ears. And then in verse 37 he says, "And I, the Lord, would fight their battles and their children's battles and their children's children's, until they had avenged themselves all their enemies to the third and fourth generation."
And he's speaking to the saints who are battling such severe battles at this time with all of their enemies. So with their terrible ones. I love that phrase so much, Josh. Okay, next to that verse, let's put Doctrine and Covenants 105 Verse 14. "For behold, I do not require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion.
For, as I said in a former commandment, even so will I fulfill. I will fight your battles." Thank you. So Josh, tell me, if you were teaching this to your college students and you really want them to understand this, that God really will fight their battles, put it into terms they could understand. I guess we've got to remember this isn't all up to us- Mm-hmm
and that most of the work is done by, by Jesus here. People struggle with sin, and we don't take care of our own sins by being perfect or avoiding ever messing up. Jesus fights the battles. He conquers the sin. He cleanses us. That's not our job to do that. Mm-hmm. Some people battle with mental health challenges, and while we should do all we can, we seek therapy, we use medication, we seek help from other professionals and family and friends and support, ultimately the one who's gonna help us to be able to cope and to be able to conquer those things in the long run is going to be the Lord Jesus Christ and His ability to heal.
Mm-hmm. We raise kids, and sometimes we beat ourselves up because they're not making the best choices, and we wonder if we could have done things better, and I'm not a perfect parent, and we struggle, and we th- we think that this is all our fault. Or, or if the kids are great, we think it's, it's all because of us too.
Mm-hmm. But the reality is these are the Lord's children. Yeah. And ultimately He is the one that is going to save them and transform them and help them accomplish all the greatest things in their life. When we recognize that He fights our battles for us and that He really is in charge, it, it liberates us from feeling like, "Oh, it depends on me.
If, if I fail, everything is ruined, or if I don't accomplish this, then I've messed everything up." And no, it's, it's Jesus Christ is the one we turn to to accomplish these things. Our job is to turn to Him and follow Him, but taking care of all the messes we make and taking care of the bad situations we fix, that is His job.
Thank you for sharing that. I had to write down everything you said. That was perfect. So going back to this imagery of this picture where we have this hard and great and strong sword, one of the things that the sword is often an image for in scripture is the word of God. And so in the next segment then, we're gonna find out, and Josh is gonna teach us, another very important way that the Lord can be our strength by using words.
We'll do that next.
Segment 6
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Next weekend is general conference, and boy are we gonna get some words. Some very hard and great and strong words from our prophets and apostles. So Josh, will you please teach us what good advice Isaiah has before we watch general conference and we hear these what could be hard and great and strong words from our prophets and apostles?
Yeah. Isaiah, sometimes we think of Isaiah as a book. It's good to remember Isaiah was a person. Mm-hmm. He was a prophet. And as surprising as it may seem, he was not very popular it seems like all the time. Yeah. He said things that people didn't like. Now today Isaiah's, you know, the greatest prophet ever, and we, you know, we talk about how great he is.
And so it's easy to forget that at the time he lived he was controversial. Mm-hmm. And he spoke against the government, and he criticized people's social lives and their economic policies and, and people had a lot of reason not to like Isaiah interfering in their business. And sometimes in his book he talks about the reaction that he's getting as people re- actually reject him.
So one example in our reading this week is in Isaiah chapter 30. I'm gonna go to verse nine. Isaiah says, "This is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the Lord." Verse 10, "Which say to the seers, 'See not,' and say to the prophets, 'Prophesy not unto us right things. Speak unto us smooth things.
Prophesy deceits. Get you out of the way. Turn aside out of the path. Cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.'" Anyway, so I don't know if anyone actually said these exact words to Isaiah. I suspect he's representing their attitude more than an exact quote of what somebody would say. But the attitude is so telling and remarkable where they say, "Yeah, you're a seer, but we don't want you to see stuff and let us know about it.
You're a prophet-" Wow ... "but please don't prophesy." And it's because they have a history of not liking the things that are being prophesied, and they say, "If you are gonna prophesy, don't prophesy unto us things that are right. Give us things that are smooth." Yeah. And literally, that's what the Hebrew has, something that's smooth, like non-abrasive, that doesn't rub you the wrong way.
It just- Mm-hmm ... like water off a duck's back, it just passes and it goes. And that attitude that the Judahites had towards Isaiah I think is unfortunately what prophets have encountered in every age- Mm-hmm ... down to our own, where people don't like prophets telling them what to do Right ... and don't like prophets challenging their existing assumptions and beliefs.
And this is something that we have to reckon with. President Russell M. Nelson, who is gone now, and I miss him dearly, um, but I, I, I love President Oaks now, too. President Nelson, in the last BYU devotional address he ever gave in 2019, and it's called The Love and Laws of God. Mm-hmm. It's on the website speeches.byu.edu.
And President Nelson just brought up kind of a frank discussion of this fact, that he gets that not everybody likes what he would say, and he says, "Sometimes we as leaders of the church are criticized for holding firm to the laws of God, defending the Savior's doctrine, and resisting the social pressures of our day.
But our commission as ordained apostles is to go into all the world to preach His gospel unto every creature. That means we are commanded to teach truth. In doing so, sometimes we are accused of being uncaring as we teach the Father's requirements for exaltation in the celestial kingdom. But wouldn't it be far more uncaring for us not to tell the truth, not to teach what God has revealed?
It is precisely because we do care deeply about all of God's children that we proclaim His truth. We may not always tell people what they want to hear. Prophets are rarely popular, but we will always teach the truth." And I thought that was an interesting perspective coming from somebody who's had, I'm sure, his fair share of angry letters Yeah
and people who are, just don't like what he says. And I've certainly heard members of the church say things like, "Well, if Elder So-and-So gets up in conference, I hope he doesn't talk about this." Yep. Or, "I hope that they stop, church leaders stop harping on that." You know, and it, it's easy to follow prophets when they say things that we al- already agree with.
We go, "Yes, preach it." Mm-hmm. But when they say things that make us uncomfortable, either because it doesn't align with our political or social or economic views, or they say something that reminds us that maybe our personal lives we could be doing better- Mm-hmm ... that's where it's not smooth. Yeah. It's, it, it rubs against us.
It's abrasive. It's abrasive, and we have to decide how to respond to that, I think. Mm-hmm. And what I've kind of realized in my life when I've had those moments where I go, "Huh, I gotta think about that one," you know? Yeah. Or whatever it is. I've just reminded myself, what would be the point of prophets if they only ever said things I already knew or al- already agreed with?
Yeah. There'd be very little point to that. I think the beauty of prophets, in part, is that they will say things, at least occasionally, that do rub me the wrong way and that do challenge my assumptions and that do poke at me and challenge me to, to be better or to think more deeply about something. And I've learned that even though I, obviously none of us like to feel that we might be wrong or that we've got to change, uh, me included, as I've responded to that counsel, I've found that I'm actually in hindsight grateful- Yeah
that I have somebody who can call me out a little bit and who can challenge me to see a bigger picture or to do something in a holier way. That's, that's ended up being a blessing in my life. Josh, I love that you shared that, 'cause it reminds me of... I'll just share something that rubbed me the wrong way that I really struggled with, and this was back in 2019.
And I remember starting in 2017 to 2019, we just, it felt like every conference we had a talk on keeping the Sabbath day holy. Yeah. There were so many. In fact, I went back and did kind of a search on Sabbath day holy talks, and I've shared this with, with my listeners. But there were so many keeping the Sabbath day holy talks over those years, like a ridiculous amount.
And I can remember being so fed up with it, 'cause I was like, "All right. We get it." Like, what aren't we doing good enough? Clearly we are wicked, so let's figure out how we're gonna make s- our Sabbath a delight. That was a talk that our prophet gave, like how does our Sabbath show that we love Jesus kind of a thing.
And I was so bugged, because I just felt like I was doing pretty good, but clearly we're not doing well enough. And I can remember being in this head space about it and trying to just figure out, okay, well, what does it look like for my family? And maybe I'm being a big fat brat about this. And then 2020 came, and COVID hit, and we for the first time in our whole experience in my life were churches at our house.
And we really had to figure out, how are we gonna keep the Sabbath day holy when no one's watching, we don't go to church? Like all of a sudden, I have to figure out what I'm gonna do all day long on Sunday with my family and what that looks like. And then after COVID, we have had- S- I think maybe three talks on the Sabbath over the last five years.
Like, a diminished number of t- and for me, the Spirit was like, "See, listen, sister, I wasn't, I wasn't rebuking any of you. I was preparing all of you. That's why I was talking about keeping the Sabbath day holy so many times." And I loved that moment because the Spirit just taught me, like, even when things are abrasive...
And I love that the Lord let it, let me s- let it be abrasive to me. I love that He let me complain, you know? He's like, "You're, you'll figure this out in five years. I believe you, me, you know? In, in 2020, you have no idea what's coming." And so I was grateful for that because now when I hear things at conference that rub me the wrong way, I have to stop and go, "Okay, wait a minute.
Maybe this is preparation." And maybe when I hear something this next conference that, like you said, is abrasive or rubs me the wrong way, I'll be able to just sit with it and be like, "Okay, wait a minute. Is this, is this preparing me? Is this, are the prophets and apostles preparing us for what we need to hear?"
So I love that you shared what you did, and I'm so grateful for these verses because conference is coming up. It's in a couple of days. And it might be good for us to consider, how are we preparing for general conference? And so I, I would love to encourage everyone to share with us online, how do you prepare to receive the word of the Lord or the sword of the Lord?
What are you doing to get ready? So that's, that's my story. Do you have a story? I'm curious. Yeah, one that comes to mind. I remember the, the year after my mission, I was at BYU, and I was a pretty good attender to the weekly devotionals- Mm-hmm ... uh, because that's what you were supposed to do. But I remember feeling a little frustrated because I felt like I w- I felt like when these church leaders come and they're te- speaking at the devotional, they should be giving us more meaty stuff.
Sure. 'Cause I'm young and I'm exploring things, and I'm like, "I have questions about what the afterlife is like. Can't we get some revelation and shed some light on the spirit world?" Or, "I wanna know what's the... you know, how do you reconcile Genesis and evolution?" 'Cause I'm taking biology right now. Or, you know, all these things where I'm like, "I wish they would just reveal some new things or give some meaty stuff," but instead every week they come and they talk about faith or being kind.
And I'm like, "I've heard these lessons before. Why d- why is this what we keep getting?" So that was my kind of bad attitude. And in January 2008, Elder Henry B. Eyring was gonna come, and I remember having this thought, like, "I hope he doesn't just give some generic thing we've heard before again. Like, this would be great to learn something new for a change."
Yeah. So that's kinda what I wanted. But then at the last minute, I had a family member visiting who came to the devotional with me. And this family member was going through some very, very difficult things. Just, you know, the kind of stuff that I still can't comprehend, like how can you go through that much suffering and make it through life?
Mm. And we got to the devotional, and Elder Eyring gave a talk called The Power of Deliverance, and he talked about trials and enduring your trials and turning to God's power of deliverance to help you through those things, and it was the perfect talk- Mm ... that he needed. And I was so grateful that he didn't talk about one of my esoteric things that I was hoping he would have talked on.
Um, and it humbled me to recognize, you know, I was being a little selfish wanting talks on this or that when there's, I'm sure, many people in the Marriott Center who need those talks. And it made me realize I probably needed them, too, if I had ears to hear. Yeah. Um, so it was just a little humbling moment that, um, you know, they know what they're doing, and they, they get that inspiration, and the Lord knows best, better, better than I had thought I did Wow.
That's a great story. Thank you, Josh. Wow. Well, thank you for this discussion. I'm so glad that we were able to talk about all of these things, and they've just, they have just, like, blended so beautifully together, these words of Isaiah. And I love how you said that Isaiah was a man, and I just can't help but thinking, like, I wonder if his feelings ever got hurt.
I wonder if he ever was downtrodden and thought, "This is hard. I don't like this. Why are people so mean?" And I think a job of a prophet is hard, not easy at all. And I, in fact, I love, and I put this in my scriptures when you read it, prophets are rarely popular, and boy, that's the truth. So have fun this weekend listening to General Conference, everyone, and I can't wait to find out what do you do to prepare yourself for General Conference to hear the word of the Lord.
So thank you, Josh. That's the end of our episode. We're done. Yay. So good. Um, I always ask my guests at the end, what did the Spirit teach you, or what eternal truth did you learn as we discussed? And you were primarily the teacher today, so I'm gonna share what I learned from you. I loved when you said our job is to turn to Him, but His job is to save us.
Like, that is powerful. I might frame that and put it on my wall with the leviathan picture now because- There you go ... that's exactly the whole point of the message of Isaiah is our job is to turn to Him, and His job is to save us and to fight our battles. So thank you so much. What a good discussion.
Tammy, do you know what you should Google? Uh, since you like that leviathan image, there's a great painting by Brian Kershisnik. Oh, I love him. Yeah, so if you Google his name and, uh, The Harrowing of Hell. Okay. He's got a great kind of s- spin on this, uh, leviathan image. I've got that one on my wall too. Oh, my goodness.
So it's, it's kind of ba- ... So in this one he's not slaying it with the sword, but Jacob talks about preparing a way from our escape. Oh, that's good. So in this image he's, he's, he's got the cross, and he's propping open the monster's mouth, and you've got all the souls of the dead- Mm-hmm ... are rushing out of the belly of the beast- Wow
to get out of there because they couldn't get out before 'cause the jaws were closed. But Jesus there- Wow ... and you can see what it's ... Jesus, his feet are on the, the teeth, and they're bleeding- Yes ... so this is causing him suffering, but he's, he's just wrestling to keep that mouth open while all these people try to get out of there, and they're escaping.
So it's a very dramatic kind of combination of all these images. Oh, that is incredible. Yeah. I love how it takes this Old Testament image- Uh-huh ... the, Jacob's point in the Book of Mormon, and this New Testament imagery of the cross and kind of melds it all together. Oh, my gosh. I love that you shared that.
The Harrowing of Hell by Brian Kershisnik. Josh, that's so cool. Wow. Okay. Love it. You did great. Thank you so much for taking the time and putting all of your effort into doing this 'cause that was a great discussion of those verses that people would just be like, "What is going on here?" And you described it perfectly, so thanks.
Very cool. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Okay, what did you learn? It had to have been so much. That was so fun. Josh, thank you very much for teaching us all that you taught us about Hebrew. Now, everyone listening, go and join our group on Facebook and follow us on Instagram so you can share what you've learned.
And also I wanna know, how are you preparing for general conference? I'd love to hear what people do to get ready to hear the word or the sword of the Lord. Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
And go there anyway because it's where we're gonna have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion, so go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our awesome study group participant was Dr.
Josh Sears. And you can find more information about my friend at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember that God will fight your battles because you are God's favorite.