The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcript's imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Segment 1
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Many of us have had to move. For some, the move was planned, and for others, it may have come under duress. Now, I want you to imagine that today you get a call that you're moving. Like, you actually have to move. How fast can you pack? And you can't take much with you, so what are you taking? Do you have any non-negotiables, things you're not willing to part with?

Oh, and I forgot to add that you also have to march 500 miles to a foreign city, and once you're there, you're not gonna have any freedoms. You'll be indoctrinated in the politics and religion of your enemies, making for a very unsettling and trying move. That's the setting of the Book of Daniel, and today we are going to study how this devastating move and years in servitude can teach us how to trust in the Lord when our faith feels unsettled and is tried.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Book Shelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friend, Pamela Calvert, from San Jose, California.

Pamela, I loved meeting you. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different each week. And today is different. Well, kind of different. A little bit the same, 'cause we have Abe Mills. Hi, Abe. Hey. How you doing, Tammy? Oh, I'm so glad you're here.

Glad to be here. Now, normally we have the dudes, Abe and Tyler, but we have something special today, and I'm so excited. Abe, I'm gonna let you introduce. Who's our ne- other guest? Okay, so Tyler, as you know, is pretty amazing. I love Tyler. He's, he's done so many cool things to help out our family, and I miss him.

But I'm so grateful to have the person that we have here today. It is my wonderful, beautiful, amazing wife, Rachel. Yay. Hi, Rachel. Hi. Hello. I'm so glad to be here. Oh, we are so glad to have you here. I was grateful you said yes. It... This is absolutely divine. Like, God knew. God knows. So I wanna know, how did you two meet, though?

Give us a fun story. Wow. A fun story. You know, I w- Do you wanna know how we met or when I first saw him? Ooh, when you first saw him. That sounds better. Okay. We'll start... Yeah, it was at freshman orientation, and he was on stage singing, and he was so cute. And I saw this cute guy up there, and I was screaming and screaming.

The security guards at BYU were, like, holding back us wild freshmen. But I didn't know who he was when I met him seven months later, and we were dating even for a couple weeks, and I said, "Wait a minute, you're the guy I thought was so cute." Oh, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. If you can tell them then how we met, actually met, huh?

I, so I used to sing in an a cappella group, and we'd, we're doing the freshman orientation, which is why she saw us singing up there. [00:03:00] But, you know, I was in a play the weeks later, and in that play we had, you know, kind of like a almost, uh, just a meeting where people wanted to ask people about the play, 'cause it was ki- it was an original from BYU.

And so, and it was around Blacks and the priesthood, actually, which was kind of interesting. And so all of that attracted attention, and there was, um, you know, these big meetings that we'd have, and people would ask questions and whatnot. And that was one of those, the, one of those meetings. Rachel had a question.

She came up to me after the meeting to ask me this question, and I told her that we need to set up a time to get together and talk about it. He set up on a special appointment. Smooth. Nice job, Abe. Oh. I love it. Oh, wow. How long have you two been married? 25 years Man, it's been 25 years now. Yeah. That's a- Six children in 25 years.

We dated, though, um, pretty seriously after that time. Our first date was we, he took me to the temple, and I thought, "Oh my gosh, he's so dreamy." And he took me to the temple, and it was so amazing, and we dated very, very seriously, but I was still so young. And I prayed to know if he was the one I was supposed to marry, 'cause he kinda mentioned marriage a little bit.

And I felt and heard, I remember where I was walking on BYU campus, and I heard God say, "Yes, he's the one you're supposed to marry, just not yet." And I didn't know what to do with that information, so I called him up and I broke up with him. I was like, "It's not time, so, um, we, you know, we need to do our own thing."

But, and I really do feel like I needed that time, but I did not do it in the right way. That did not make him happy at all. He was pretty upset. Well, we spent five years apart, but I was... Yeah, it was hard to take, you know, when you're, when you like somebody and love somebody and- Whoa ... you wanna be with each other.

It was hard on me, too. But- Yeah ... but five years later- So- ... we saw each other again. Five years? Oh my gosh. Yeah. Those five years- After she had been on a mission- Yeah ... I was just, I d- I think I had just graduated from BYU. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we ran into each other, and we went on another date, and then started dating again and got engaged about six months later.

That's awesome. Okay, that's a good story. That's a really good story. Rachel, where did you serve your mission? I served in Bolivia. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Wonderful, wonderful experience. This is neat. That, I didn't realize that that's, you were apart for five years. That's incredible that neither one of you got married.

But you did a lot with your life, so that's pretty neat. We did. Okay, this is gonna be a fun discussion. And we know the stories in Daniel. It's the application that matters. And so my guests are gonna help me do that today. They're gonna help me tell the stories of Daniel, but then really how does it apply to our lives.

So I am looking forward to what these two have prepared, and we're all gonna take turns doing that. So if you wanna know more about my guests, then you're gonna read their bios, which are gonna be in our show notes. You can find those at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday, and I'm sure [00:06:00] they will include cute pictures.

Abe, you might need to come up with some new pictures for your bio, 'cause you got Rachel. Gotcha. Yeah. And go and check that out. So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with, and let's dig into the Book of Daniel, chapters one through seven and a couple of others. Okay, first things first, I always ask my guests, Rachel, share with me what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you read and studied for this episode?

One of the biggest things that it re- that it told me again, it taught me again, was the importance of just falling upon our knees. Um, I read Daniel chapter 6 verse 10, and he said, "Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house, and his window being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, and he kneeled upon his knees-" Three times a day and prayed and gave thanks giving to God as he did aforetime.

And I just love that courage because as we are facing anything fiery or difficult or hard, I have always in the past just fallen upon my knees. And sometimes as the trials get deeper and harder and the fiery furnace gets even more, uh, even hotter- Mm-hmm ... and as we- we're gonna talk about, right? And that, you know, King Nebuchadnezzar made it seven times hotter, and I know we'll talk about all that.

But as it just gets hotter and you think, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know this furnace could get so hot," the answer is still fall upon your knees. Mm. Yeah, that's great. Oh, I think that's beautiful. And when you read that falling upon your knees, do you take it literally or a little bit of both? Um, I, I do both actually because obviously you can talk to God all day and you can just turn to him all day.

Like that's just- Mm-hmm ... you've gotta talk to him. He's gotta be your best friend. But I do find great power in just falling on my knees. There's just something dramatic and beautiful about when I climb out of bed, I fall on my knees. And I learned that years ago when I'd watch- Mm ... Abe climb out of bed. He had to go to work at 2:00 AM, and I'd watch him fall on his knees.

And I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's 2:00 AM. You're too tired to do that." But he would just- Uh-huh ... go straight to his knees. And now, um, there's just something powerful about going to your knees. It's humbling, and it tells the Lord something. But absolutely, no, it doesn't have to be. And it's all day long, but sometimes even in the middle of the kitchen I'll be working, and I will just fall on my knees, and my kids will walk in and be like, "Oh, Mom's praying."

Oh, that is so cool. That is so cool. I love that. And I love that you pointed that out because when I was going over everything this morning, that stood out to me again, so I love that, that this came to you. And I noticed a cross-reference that I had put next to the word kneeled, so I circled kneeled. And then I put a cross-reference, and this is pretty cool.

Put Doctrine and Covenants Section 88 Verse 131 about the significance of praying on your knees. Rachel, I love how you said just in the morning you fall on your knees and the example that Abe was to fall on your knees. And [00:09:00] this is kind of a cool scripture. Let's go to Section 88, and let's look at Verse 131.

And when we get there, will you read that for us, Rachel? "Let him offer himself in prayer upon his knees before God in token or remembrance of the everlasting covenant." And I think that's so powerful for me. Like, when we're on our knees, it's in token or in symbolism of the everlasting covenant, which is Jesus Christ.

And I just think how cool, thinking of him in Gethsemane and being upon his knees, and the covenant we make with him. So I, yeah, I love that you brought up on our knees. So thank you. Yeah. There's some, there, there's some... Just to kinda add to that a little bit, I do think that, um, like you said, doesn't have to be a literal falling on the knees.

But I do think many times in our lives we have opportunities to symbolically fall on our knees- Yeah ... which is thereby giving, uh, being humble to what the Lord wants. Um, I think you, you fall on your knees is, like, my favorite line actually from, uh, the hymn Oh Holy Night. And then- Mm ... I think of if you wanna go to the guy side of it, in Raiders of the Lost Ark, I think it says, "Only the penitent man shall pass," the penitent man.

Oh, yeah. Which means to go down to your knees, the humble man, and that's what saved his life in that movie, was that he went to his knees, avoided that. But yes, so the- That's a cool reference ... the humble, the humble man, um, will yield to the enticings of the, the Holy Ghost. Um, but yeah, no, I appreciate that.

That's great, um, that Rachel brought that up. The thing that came up to me as far as when I was reading is that God will literally use anything to show his power to those around him. And I think that becomes interesting because we don't really have kings right now that are doing, act- acting and operating necessarily in the exact same way, but we do have those in the world who, you know, are trying to yield a power and, and not place God f- God first.

And, um, and so there's distractions that way I think for people. And so, um, in, in the, in the stories here, God uses just about everything as, um, as a way to show and prove his power. Mm. From the fire, from the furnace to the lions den. I mean, you look at it like, "Oh, well, okay, we're gonna use that. You wanna throw him there?

We'll use that." Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. "You wanna throw them there? We'll use that." Um, you want to, uh, you know, when he, when, and, and even in, in chapter one, he was able to use their diet or whatever it is, right? To, to show that they were, that they were, uh, trustworthy and that they could be trusted. And so, um, in our lives, God's gonna give us opportunities to, to listen to him.

He's gonna give us opportunities to show his power. And so I like to call that our gifts and our, uh, or our talents. Mm. And I think that we sh- need to use those to serve the Lord. Okay, [00:12:00] Abe, I have a follow-up question then. Yeah. What's one of your gifts or talents where the God- God's like, "I gotta use it, Abe.

I gotta use it to show my power," that you wouldn't have normally guessed would be one? What's one of your gifts? Well, so I'll, I'll tell you this. I feel like s- singing has been a gift that God gave me. Mm-hmm. And a lot of people don't know this about me, but I didn't start singing until I was on my mission.

Um, I wasn't- Oh, I didn't know that. I, I sang in the third grade choir- ... and then my mom ki- kind of got me interested in being in choir, 'cause she was kind of like in the choir, and so she was like, "You should join me in the choir." And this was kind of like right before my mission is when I started kind of singing in the choir.

Not that I didn't like music. I was more of an athlete. That's what I, what I got into. Mm-hmm. That's what I spent my time doing. Um, but as I got closer to my mission, music started to kind of, um, come back into my life a little bit. And as I got on my mission, I saw it as an opportunity to use that gift to share the spirit, um, because music was such a powerful influence on me- Mm-hmm

that I felt like I needed to make that, um, to use that gift as a powerful influence for others. And so it's kind of funny that that happened b- because, you know, then I had the opportunity to go and- Yeah ... do the many things that I've done with my voice. Oh, that's a great example. Okay, really quick, what's one of Rachel's gifts?

Uh, Rachel has the ability to feel... I think empat- there's empathy and there's sympathy. Rachel has the ability to feel sympathy and empathy even for people- Mm ... in, um, situations. And so if you're a friend that is struggling through something, Rachel will feel it and go through it with you, and that's one of the gifts that she has.

Wow. What a cool gift. Yeah. Well, that was a sweet answer, Abe. I love that you said that about her, and I love how you connected it to our gifts, 'cause you're right. God will literally use anything to prove his power. I love how you said that. And so thank you to both of you for teaching us what the Holy Ghost taught you.

That's always my favorite question at the beginning, and I th- I think it's so important that we ask that, 'cause it's also in the Come, Follow Me manual. It encourages teachers to ask their students that at the beginning of every class. So be thinking about that for those of you that are teaching. Ask that question.

Look what, look what we experience because of it. So thank you to both of you. Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. Let's dive into the Book of Daniel, and in the next segment, we're gonna be introduced to who the players are in the stories in Daniel.

[00:14:32] Segment 2
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Now, this is a fun story, and I ca- I'm so excited. Here's the great thing about this episode is these two, fun fact that nobody probably knows, they were on a TV show. And I asked them to talk about it. Hm. So they were on a show called The Parent Test. And the... Okay, I'm gonna let you two set this up. Tell us what this show is about, how did you get picked, and from what I understand, there were all these different types of parents, [00:15:00] and you guys got picked to be the strict parents.

That's how they chose you. So talk to us about the TV show. What was your experience like? How did you get into this? And, and I wanna know all this stuff, 'cause this is gonna play into the Book of Daniel. For sure. Great question. Rachel, I, I think you should take this. How did we get onto the show? Well, it in, it, it initially started because we were almost on America's Got Talent.

We were on, almost on another big Nickelodeon show with our family band. So the talent agent just really loved us, and she kept contacting us, and all of a sudden she was like, "Oh my gosh, I have the perfect show. Will you guys please go on it? It's called The Parent Test." And I was like, "No, I don't wanna do that.

Who wants their parenting tested? And who wants every, the whole world to see how you parent?" I did not want that. And but we agreed. We submitted our video. And then, it was, that was in the spring, and we contacted them and we said, "You know what? We, I, I can't do this. Our summer's gonna be too busy." It was going to be on ABC.

Yeah. And so it was a big show. And I said, "You know what? We're too busy. We, we can't handle this." And they said, "You're our favorite family. You have to do it." Yeah. And they, they assured us that this was just, like, a way to honor parents and their different parenting styles, right? Right. They never said that they were going to be voting parents off the show- Oh

and that parents would be judging each other. They said, "We're just celebrating parenthood." And I was like, "What? Okay." I was like, that was the only reason why they got us on was we said, "Okay, we'll celebrate parenthood," because honestly and truly, we- Mm-hmm ... love all styles of parenting, and we think it's important.

Almost all. Not all. Oh, sorry. Almost all. Sure. Sure. Just because- We're not gonna tell an- each which ones we don't love. Yeah. We love all of you people. But I, I, I do think that, you know, there's some that coincide with the principles of the gospel better, and I do love those the most, and those are most important.

And those principles are having a purpose and loving God- Mm-hmm ... and of course, devotion and love to your children. And there were... So because we were represented as the Christians, and they all knew that we were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they had to classify us as strict.

But I would say we're more disciplined, but- Oh, I like that ... we, we represented, um, you know, Christianity. We represent rules, right? It's like- Yeah, we represented rules ... having rules and, like, having boundaries in place and those types of things, it seemed like, you know, like, oh, well, you're really strict 'cause you said that, you know, your kids can't date till they're 16, and, you know, you, you, you can't have drinking and alcohol and this kind of stuff, drugs, all of that kind of stuff.

And so they, it seemed like they kind of, like, just saw this because we had rules, that we were just the strict parents. So I'll tell you one story if you wanna hear it. I don't know. Yes, I do. Okay, of why I think we were chosen. This had just happened with our kids, our teenage boys. We had told them one night, we said, "All right.

You can go out in our new car." Well, it was new to us. [00:18:00] It wasn't a new car, but it was new to us. Mm-hmm. I said, "But I saw this other kid there," and I said, "You have your license?" He said, "Yes." I said, "You're not to drive the car." Only my boys are to drive the car. And I told them exact instructions. I told all of them exact instructions of what to do with this car.

Well, they let their buddies go drive this car, and their buddies destroyed the engine. Like, destroyed it. It was done. It was done with. The car was done with. Yeah. Like, just destroyed it that night. And so they were horrified. Our boys were horrified. And, um, we, we were, too. We had just bought the car. Yeah.

So, um, as our consequence, we had them ride their bikes to school, which was 21 miles away. Wow. But then they had to do football practice. And, uh, we told them that story, and they were like, "Oh, we found our strict parents." So, um, but our boys have never... Like, they were grateful for it, and their, their football coaches always said, "Hey, if your boys get in trouble at all, we don't even need to worry about it.

We know you'll handle it." Mm-hmm. But we're not strict. They are free to live and do the things that they wanna do and explore what they wanna explore, but we definitely are disciplined Wow. I like how you said that Most definitely ... we're not strict, we're disciplined. Okay. That is really important going into the story in the Book of Daniel.

Yes, sure. Oh, by the way, though, what, how long did you last? 'Cause you said they voted you off. Well, so this is the th- this is the deal. Oh. They didn't tell us this whole thing until about a m- what, a couple weeks before we went. Because what they would do is they'd go to everybody's house. So they came to Florida, they shot all these challenges and everything with our family, and then, like, literally, what, two weeks before we went, or a week before we went to LA to shoot, like, months later, they told everybody, "Oh, by the way, you're gonna vote these fa- you're gonna vote each other off based upon what you think about how these people did on these tests."

And everybody was like, "Whoa." K- so if you can imagine, all of these families come together now- Yeah ... and now they're looking at each other going, "Mm, oops, we voting off those people right there, for sure." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know? And, and so that was kinda like the atmosphere that we went into. And then, um, and as we got in there, then we started to sit down, they started to shoot.

And them knowing that we were members, there was another family that was not, that were, had left the church. And they k- Mm ... tried to pair us. They tried to get us against each other and ask us questions so that we would, like, kinda be against each other. But we w- we never would fall for that kinda stuff. I would like to talk more about the things that we learned later on as we talk about, uh, Daniel, chapter 3.

Okay. Because it was truly a fiery furnace. I would like to talk about that more later. But I will say something that we loved. There were families that were, um, members of our church. There was one other family who were members, some were, who were anti. There were Buddhists, Jews, um, agnostic- Muslim ... Muslim.

Like, a, a little bit of everything and everyone. And after the first couple days of filming, um, a few of ladies of all different faiths, all different beliefs, came up to me and they said, "We've [00:21:00] all been talking." They said, "And w- " They said, "We've never met Christians so non-judgmental as you guys." Oh. And so we were grateful for that.

Because in the beginning, and that was a fiery furnace that I'll talk about later, we were targeted by all means. Um- Yeah. And one of the, one of the couples was a gay couple, and they said on the show, "We just wish that more couples could be like Abe and Rachel-" "... 'cause of how they, you know, how they love us and, and care about us."

Oh. He said, "They obviously have different foundational beliefs, but yet we love each other." And he sent me a text while the show was airing, and he said, "They're gonna try hard to make it look like we hate each other, but we love each other." Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. So how'd you guys fare? Yeah. Did you win The Parent Test?

So we got voted into the finals, and then, um- They flew our kids out to LA to do the final test with us, and one of our kids tested positive for COVID, and then we got kicked off the show and weren't able- Wow ... to do the finals. And it was, it was a little disappointing because they didn't allow anyone to know why.

They just didn't bring us back. And, and- Hmm ... so it was a big thing. But, um, people were all asking, like, "What happened to the Mills?" Like, we, you know, we thought they were gonna, you know, be the ones, so. But it was, it is what it is. TV's TV. Yeah. Don't believe everything, don't believe quite everything that you see.

Oh my gosh. So that's why when he says, "Tested positive for COVID," I'm gonna put quotation marks around that. Air quote that, yeah. Air quote that, yeah. Yeah. 'Cause, uh- Interesting ... we're, yeah, we, we were wondering how that, how that worked out, but yeah, so. Yeah. Wow. But we'll share more later, but that was- Okay

uh, that was actually part of the miracle Okay. Oh, I can't wait then. Yeah. That's a good teaser. So you were on the show The Parent Test, and one of the things I love that you said is, "It's not that we were strict, it's that we were disciplined." And I think that plays into the storyline going into Daniel.

Let's turn to Daniel 1, and we're going to read just verses 3 and 4. Now, the storyline takes place around the time of the Babylonian captivity. And when this took place, they came in, and sure enough, the families had to move, and this was a really difficult time. One of the things you wanna know is Babylon was the world's great superpower.

In fact, one ancient historian described the walls of Babylon that surrounded the city as more than 300 feet high, 80 feet thick, an absolute magnificence, and he wrote, "There's no other city that approaches it." So in its day, Babylon was the world's center of learning, law, and philosophy, and its military might was unparalleled.

So this is a big deal, and they come in and they take these families captive, and now they're not going to have any freedoms to worship the way they wanna worship. And one of the things about the spoils of war is not only do you take all of the gold and the silver and the food and the animals, you can also take people as spoils of war, [00:24:00] and that's what's going on right now in this story.

And the spoils of war are found in verses 3 and 4. So Abe, will you read those verses for us, please? Yes. "And the king spake unto Ashpenaz, the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring certain of the children of Israel, and of the king's seed, and of the princes; children in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skillful in all wisdom, and cunning, and knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans."

Thank you. Now, looking at verse 4, all of the qualifications that these children had to have, wisdom, cunning in knowledge, understanding in science, the ability in them to stand in the king's palace, all of these things. And when it says children, they believe that they were under the age of 18, 'cause 18 and older would've been an adult.

So these are young, some scholars believe around the age of between, like, 14 and 17, so they're young. And I was... As I was reading this, my question was, like, who taught these boys? Who was the one that taught them? Because they're gonna get picked. Verses 6 and 7, let's go down there and read verses 6 and 7.

And Rachel, will you read their names for us? The children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah Mm-hmm. And then their names get changed. So they're going to have new names given to them, and we read those for us in verse seven. Belteshazzar, Hananiah of Shadrach, and to Mishael of Meshach, and to Azariah of Abednego.

There we go. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego There we go. There are their names. There we go So there, here are the boys. So I wanna know, like, how do you, what are your thoughts about these parents? 'Cause I'm thinking they weren't maybe strict, maybe. I love how you said that. Their parents would've had to have been disciplined to teach these boys, right?

Tell me your thoughts about these parents. Who taught them to be these things? Yeah, I would say that it, you know, the parents definitely would have had to have g- uh, guided them in the way. Specifically back then, you think about, like, knowing about science. These, it's not like everybody had a bunch of books or the internet around.

You know, they could say like, "Hey, study this for a while." But, um, it, it, it took a little extra time to teach the gift of reading and to be able to read the stars or just to know, I think, have knowledge about things around you, even history. Because people were busy doing things like living, you know, growing your own food.

Yeah, right. And the type of stuff that we don't have to worry about, right? Yeah. You didn't just go to the, go to the store and buy everything that you needed. You had to make it. Um, and so I would say that the parents would have had to have had a lot of, uh, influence on which areas of study there were.

And I would imagine that, you know, God m- may have guided them in that. Well, that's something that I was, as I was studying, I looked up AI. I said, "Why did they change the name to Daniel [00:27:00] from, uh, from Daniel to Belteshazzar?" If I'm saying that right. I don't know. Yeah. And AI, I was looking it up and I was trying to figure it out, but it says, "Daniel in Hebrew, this name means God, Elohim is my judge.

It served as a constant reminder of his accountability and devotion to the one true God of Israel. Belteshazzar, the Babylonians stripped away the reference to Elohim and replaced it with an invocation to their own pagan idol, hoping to rewrite Daniel's identity and make him a prince of Bel." Mm-hmm. So I don't know if, I mean, I looked that up on I- AI, so I don't know if that's

But I thought that's interesting 'cause I thought, why are they even changing their names? Well, this is fascinating. I love that you brought up their names because I have written to the side right here what their names mean, and Belteshazzar, it means, oh, protect his life. Oh. Isn't that interesting? Oh, protect his life.

And it will be protected throughout the Book of Daniel. Daniel means God is my judge, but then to have it changed to, oh, protect his life, boy, there's some foreshadowing there. I think that's pretty cool. And I, and I wonder if just them changing the names at all is kind of like, "Hey, we've captured you. Now you're one of us."

Yes. "And so you're gonna be, you're gonna be given this new name." Yeah. And then, you know, he happens to name him Mm-hmm ... you know, like what you said, oh, protect his life, which is- And- ... which is interesting. Yeah, and I'm, I'm like, I'm seeing this story in a different way like this because as a mom, Rachel, they come in and they take your boys.

And, and all you're thinking is like, "Oh, I hope I taught them everything they needed to know." Mm-hmm. I mean, don't we all often think that as parents? Because we were talking- Mm-hmm ... at the beginning how out of six kids, Rachel has two left in home, and my youngest is a senior, and they're off going into the world.

And this, that to me is a Babylon. That is the moment where- For sure ... the world takes them, and you're like, "Oh, I hope I taught them to be skillful in wisdom, cunning, and knowledge, the ability to stand in king's palace," right? You just know these parents are like, "I hope I did it right." Yeah. But it's a crap shoot.

Absolutely. Well, one of our, we, we also have a YouTube channel called Sunshine Mafia, and we, we have a fan who contacted one of our sons who's at a school that is not one of the church schools. And he called him up and he said, "Hey." It was a weekend night. He said, "What are you doing?" And my son said, "I'm, I'm at a Bible study."

And he said, "No, you're not." He said, "Kids in their twen- early 20s don't do that." And I, my heart was so grateful. I was like... He said, "Wait a minute. You're telling me that when your kids leave their home, they still study about God?" And I was so deeply grateful that that was, um, what he was choosing to do. Wow.

Love that story. Not that that's what they're always choosing to do, but- ... that particular time. In that moment. I was like, "Hallelujah." I was like, phew. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Phew. Oh, that is so great. Okay. So this is awesome to think about. I just kind of want us all thinking about, boy, these boys, someone had to have taught them.

It was most likely their [00:30:00] parents. And to kind of just think about the role that that's gonna play in their lives because the, again, in verse 3, they were the children of Israel, and the, instead of "and" the k- of the kings, it's the word "even," even of the king's seed and of the princes, meaning Judah. The k- and so these are children who have been s- taught, and the parents are just hoping, "I hope I did a good enough job."

And so in the next segment, we're gonna find out if they did, and what that story is, and how it applies to our life, and Abe's gonna teach us about that. We'll do it next.

[00:30:39] Segment 3
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Okay, Abe, here we go. Teach us about- All right ... the story in Daniel 1, and I asked both of my guests to retell the story and then apply it to a time when in their life where their faith may have been tried or when it was a difficult time. What's the lesson learned? So hit it. Yeah, so, um, one of the things I wanted to mention first of all is that when you get into Daniel, this is definitely, like, when you think about fantasy, like, writing and things like that, there's so many weird things in Daniel.

Like, but I love how, uh, in this, in chapter one it basically starts off with Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, right? Mm-hmm. And they're being, they're, they're being fed by the king, right? And they're being fed the king's meat and drink, right, with wine and all that. And I'm assuming that as they come into this situation that it's, it's kind of already determined this is what you get.

You eat it, then you go, you know, you go about your day. It's not like kinda like, I'm assuming that they're not walking around having this, the ability to just kind of like pick and choose what it is that they get. Yeah, it's not a buffet. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. And, and so- It's non-negotiable ... right. And so in their wisdom they realize, hey, some of this stuff that we're eating may not be helping us be at our best.

Mm-hmm. And so they, they try to talk them into letting them have a, have a week, or was it 10 days? Verse 14 here. Yeah, 10 days. He says, "He consented to them that for 10 days," they said, "Let us just eat the pulse." Mm-hmm. And I think that that's interesting 'cause you say the pulse. Okay, what is the pulse? The pulse is more like eating just the vegetables, the healthy stuff, which I imagine back then would've been less affected.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm assuming they weren't using the same type of chemicals that we use in these days- ... in some of that stuff. And so, um, they were able to eat that, and over that time it showed. They were like, "Oh, you actually look fairer. You look like you're doing better physically and by appearance than other people," who were, who were today's, you know, doing the regular regimen.

Yeah. And so because of that- It a- it actually allowed them to be considered, um, as, I wanna say advisors to the king or closer to the king, and [00:33:00] more influence in terms of, of their, their role, um, because they had come back, come with something that was an, an idea that was proven to be true. Mm-hmm. And so, um, like I said, God will use anything.

So God, in that case, He used their ability to go and u- have a different diet, right, for that 10 days, and then the way that He affected them and the way that He changed them was clear to other people who were in power, and now they all of a sudden gain more influence with those people, which I thought was interesting.

Yeah. Absolutely. So taking this storyline, Abe- Yeah ... has there been a time in your life where you've had to trust in something the Lord told you to do, and it turned out to be good? And you're like, "I don't know." Do, have you had your own proverbial 10-day experience? Uh, I, I've definitely had- 10 days, 10 months.

Yeah, I've definitely had an experience. And I, and I'll say I believe that... So, um, you know, remember they said here that this, uh, that there were certain people that he was trusting in his kingdom anyway, like astrologers, and they were looking for a specific type of people. And so even though these guys, they were w- they had some wisdom in these areas, I don't think that they were seen as astrologers and some of these other things, but, but they did receive that, um, that trust because of, um, what God blessed them with.

Now, as far as in my life, uh, I will say there's a time where we, when we were starting our YouTube channel where I had to think, "Man, I don't know this is the thing that we should be doing." But we had dec- we had determined that we were gonna go to Guatemala because we were, we were determined that God had told us that we needed to do some service, and that it was in a foreign country.

And we had applied to win this contest, and it was in, it would've been Mexico, and we were in the top 10, and so we thought for sure we'd win this thing. We went and got, um, all of these- Passports ... passports, right, our passports for all kids, which I mean, there was 10 of us in the family at the time, right?

So we had all these- It's a lot ... passports that we had gotten. We had, we had a couple extra kids that lived with us. We had a couple kids staying with us. And so, um, we thought for sure, man, this is gonna be it. We're gonna win this thing. We're gonna go to Mexico. And then we lost. And then it was like- Oh

"Hmm, so what do you think's going on here? Why did we just spend $1,000 on passports?" 'Cause you know passports cost money- Yeah. Uh-huh ... and when you times that by, you know, the, the number that we have. And so we said, "Well, I think God wants us to go do some service, and he wants us to go to a country." And so a foreign country.

And so we called a friend of ours that had lived in Guatemala, and he helped us get in touch with some people down there. And so we went through this whole thing. We're like, "All right, how are we gonna do this?" So we had a little concert at our house, and we told people, "Just donate what you will. We're gonna do a concert for you."

And we did three of those concerts, and by the time we finished those concerts, we had just enough money to buy plane tickets to get there. Wow. Not, like, stay there, a place to stay, any of that stuff. Not the money that we would have to pay for our rent while we were gone, not the money for food, any of that.

But [00:36:00] we had enough to buy the tickets, and we bought the tickets And then as we approach, and at that time in, on our YouTube channel, we only, we didn't have that many subscribers, and we weren't making that much money off of YouTube. And so, but we were like, "Okay. Well, I don't know. What do you think we're gonna do?"

We're looking at each other. I'm looking at Rachel. She's looking at me, and I'm saying, "I don't know. I mean, I feel like this is what we're supposed to do, but I don't know how we're gonna pay our bills that month." Mm-hmm. And we go, and we do this trip like God told us to. All, everything gets paid for.

Right before we left, I remember it was just a couple weeks before we left, and I was walking down the beach, and all of a sudden my phone, I saw all these alerts start po- popping up like crazy. And it, the alerts kept saying, "We're praying for you. God bless you. God bless you. We love you. We're praying for you."

And I was like, "What's going on? Why are they all praying for us all of a sudden?" And these were people, I'd look at the... You know, they'd say from Africa, from all over the world. And I was like, "What video are they, like, watching?" Well, they had gone back to watch our America's Got Talent video. And I had even said in the beginning, "I'm not gonna make our, our channel, like, super ultra-Christian.

Like, we'll bring up God," but I wasn't gonna, like, s- throw it in people's faces. But at the end, all I wrote was, "Please pray for us." And- Wow ... that was the message that just went out there. And all of a sudden, that video blew up and now has millions of views. And people were praying for us all over. And all of a sudden, all this money came in because now they're watching it.

You get paid by views. And we had just enough to go, and that was because of all these people. And I felt like God was saying, um, "You tried to do it without including me." Mm-hmm. And all that little piece I put in there was a piece that gave people the desire to be like, "Hey, I like this family. I'm gonna pray for you."

Wow. Yeah. Well- And so we get that, and I'm, I'm going, "Wow, okay, so guess God had it in His mind and His heart," and this is something that we had to take into our hearts. And, uh, that right there showed me that, you know, God will do what God wants to do. And- Mm-hmm ... and we will go where God wants us to. Yeah.

And how was that experience in Guatemala for your family? Uh, it was fantastic. We, uh, Jackson, our oldest, he had gathered up, I wanna say 200 or so books to take down there to start a reading center for kids in the community. Um, we had some other- Books in Spanish. Yeah, Spanish books. And we had some, a, a friend of ours who ran a place called, uh, uh, Kids Rock the Nation, and he would gift guitars to people.

He had gifted us guitars. Mm. He gave us four extra guitars to take with us that we could leave with centers down there. So we took that, so we were able to bless them with that. We performed for, I wanna say, four or five schools down there. Um- Kids who'd never seen a concert in their lives- Kids who had never seen anything like it

up in the mountains. Yeah. Yeah. So it was- Wow ... it was really amazing, not only for- We, we didn't bring luggage. We brought, like, instead of a suitcase, I brought a speaker. Instead of a suitcase, we brought you know, just all the- Right ... sound equipment and everything. Wow. Yeah. So it w- it was absolutely fantastic, and I think our kids [00:39:00] really, um...

I think it really benefited our kids a lot to have that experience as well. Very cool, Abe. And I just keep going back to this thing. It seems to be your theme from reading all of this, is God will literally use anything to prove His power. And I love how you got the in- the, the Spirit told you what to do, and you're like, "I don't know how we're gonna do it."

And I think back to the story where the Spirit had to have told these boys, you know, "You've been taught you're not supposed to eat of the king's meat." And these boys going, "I don't know how we're gonna do it." And God's like, "I do. I absolutely know- Mm-hmm. He did ... how I'm gonna do it. You just have to do what I'm asking you to do."

And so these young boys did that. And I, I love how you taught us, Abe. And in verse 17, let's mark that, where it says, "And as for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams." That came after they had done the thing the Lord asked them to do.

Yeah. He ga- he, he took the gifts that I believe he probably had already given them. Mm-hmm. And he awakened them inside. Oh, I like that. He did awaken them. He awakened the gifts inside of them. And I believe, I, I, you know, I talk to people all the time and I go, you know, when, when God said, "Ye are the light of the world," right?

"A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid." In that a lot of people, we walk around feeling like we're not lights. Mm-hmm. We don't feel like we light up anything. But there's gifts inside of us, and God can awaken those gifts inside of us if we'll but do very small things. And I think in this s- case, sometimes those things don't seem small.

But very simple- Yeah ... things maybe is the better way to put it. Wow, excellent job. Well, thank you, Abe. Okay. Mm-hmm. So that's the story of the boys, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and they're going to be in a very precarious situation. In the next segment, Rachel is gonna tell us all about that. We'll do that next

[00:41:00] Segment 4
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We are now going to go into Daniel chapter 3. Daniel chapter 2 is the dream that Nebuchadnezzar has and Daniel's going to interpret, and then we get into this awesome chapter in Daniel chapter 3. So Rachel, take it away. Tell us the story, and then give us the application. It's so fun. Daniel chapter 3 is a lot of fun.

Um, probably not for them in the beginning process of it, but- Right ... Nebuchadnezzar, yeah. So I, I was amazed that even after Daniel interpreted the dream and proved that his God was the god of all, that Nebuchadnezzar still is so stubborn that he creates this huge golden image. It's a full golden image, 'cause he was worried about, if I'm correct, the head being knocked off.

So he's like, "Okay, let's create the whole golden image, like this whole image," and he said, "Everybody bow down to it." Mm-hmm. And of course, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would not. And I think Daniel wasn't there, 'cause I was looking up trying to figure out where was Daniel. Why wasn't he thrown... Why didn't he have any [00:42:00] punishment to him?

But I, I don't know if we know where Daniel was, but Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego said, "Well, no, we're going to still do it." And they said, "Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?" in verse 14. "Do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?" They're like, "Is this true? Like, how could you do that?"

And they said, "Who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?" And like, how do they not know who that God is? Daniel already told them. Um, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. I love that, that he said in 16, "We're not careful." Like, they're not holding back at all.

They're not, like, being tentative about it. They're like, "I'm just gonna let you know. Be, let it be" in 18, he says, "Let it be known unto thee, O king, we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up." And so Nebuchadnezzar was pretty prideful as we see all through here, and he was just angry.

Can you imagine if you're this king and everybody does what you want to do, and then they're like, "No. I'm not doing it"? And so he, he did this furnace. He, he heated the furnace seven times more hot than what it needed to be. Mm-hmm. And so even his strongest men bound them up, and they died from the heat.

Wow. The men who threw Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in, they died from the heat. It was that hot. And, um- As Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in and there were ... And the king said, "Wait a minute, I see four men loose walking in the midst of the fire." He's like, "Not only did I bind them up, but why are they just walking around, and why are there four of them?"

And he said, "The fourth is like the Son of God." Uh, Tammy, I was wondering what your opinion i- is that, do we, is that an angel or is that- Mm-hmm ... or is that the Son of God? Here's something so cool. Highlight Son of God in verse 25, and what you wanna know is the Hebrew. Because in Hebrew it actually is Son of Gods.

Now, isn't that cool? Meaning Son of Elohim or it is Jehovah that was with them in the fire. Yeah. Okay. You know, of course, they came out and they didn't even have any singe on them. They didn't smell of smoke. Th- nothing was burned. And Nebuchadnezzar finally is again saying in 28, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who has sent his angel and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's words, and yielded their bodies that they might not serve nor worship any god except their own."

And so then he made a decree that the God, in 29, go- the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego shall be, um, is that if they treat them bad, if they treat them bad for s- worshiping their god, they'll shall be cut in pieces- ... and their houses shall be made a dunghill because there's no other god that can deliver after this sort.

So Nebuchadnezzar is so extreme. He's- Yeah. He's intense. He's so intense. He's like, you can't just, like, say, "Hey, you know, let's be nice to them." He's like, "You're gonna be cut in pieces." So, [00:45:00] um, I, I especially love that story. Love, love, love it. And, um- Tell me why. Okay. So I had a few thoughts. One of them is in The Parent Test, I felt like I was entering a fiery furnace, and I knew I felt like we were

I knew what it was gonna be. I could just feel it when we went there. I knew what was happening. And I, as an editor for YouTube, I know the power of editing and how they could turn things around, and I was super scared. And I would just ... We went into this, and I just held onto Abe's hand so tight the whole time.

Someone even in the comments, "But why is she holding his hand all the time?" They'll criticize it. I mean, I'm like, 'cause I love him. But I was also scared to death. And the first couple episodes, there was a lot of crying on my part because everybody thought they knew who we were. Because we had rules in our home, because we had discipline, and because they called us strict, and because we were the Christians, they came at us and attacked, attacked, attacked, attacked.

And it was really, really hard. And, um, and that was a time where I had to stand strong and bold, but yet still stay loving and share that I, my beliefs, and not back down. Mm. And it was powerful because here it was on national television, on ABC, and I knew I would be criticized for it, and I knew the people I loved in my community and outside my community would be judging every single word that would come out of my mouth.

And I didn't know how they would edit the words that came out of my mouth. Even on one thing, I they, they interviewed us, and they said, "What church do you go to?" And I said, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." And they looked at me, and they said, "Well, some people call it Mormon." Well, in the editing, they just said, "We're Mormon."

And so someone was messaging me, and they're like, "How dare you say that?" Ah. And I said, "You don't know. Like, you, you just don't know"- Yeah ... "right, how they're going to edit your words." And it was, it was very, very hard. And something I learned Through this experience was w- it was getting ready to air a few months later, and I just knew how hard it was.

I mean, they... There was one point where I, I, they made a big drama scene out of me saying, "We're in a war. We're in a battle for righteousness." And one of the other people were like, "That's not a war." And I was like, "It is a war, though." And so, you know, we talked about that. And we always kept it calm as, you know, and we, I felt like we represented our faith and God well because the people in the background, you know, the makeup people, the producers, they kept telling us, "You remind me of my parents and I love that and I love you."

And, um, people that were watching it. But I still didn't know what would happen when it would air. So leading up to it, all of our community had heard about it, and they... One man came up to me and he said, "Rachel, I heard you guys are gonna be on national television about your parenting, and I just wanna say, God is surely opening up doors for you.

I'm so grateful for you." And I was, was like, "Thank you." But I was like, "These aren't open doors. These are terrible doors." I didn't wanna be on national television. So I was just feeling very, lots of anxiety. And I'm not pers- [00:48:00] someone who has anxiety generally, but I was full of anxiousness. I couldn't sleep.

I was crying every night. And I talked to someone after that man said that. We were about to perform. It was our family band, and I thought, "I have to get myself right." And so s- somebody showed me this, uh, little statement that said, one was, "God is your healer," and then it said, "Gratitude is your healer." Mm.

And I thought, "I have never thanked God for this trial, for this furnace, for this fiery furnace that I'm in, where literally I'm, like, having to declare my faith to the whole world or to the country." Um, and I have never thanked him for it because I just wasn't thankful. I was- Mm-hmm ... m- mad that I had to pass.

I knew we were supposed to do it, but I was mad that I had to pass through it. But I'm sure Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were grateful for their opportunity, 'cause that's why they said they weren't even careful. They just went out there. Yeah. They didn't care. And so I knelt down. I fell on my knees.

Mm-hmm. And I knelt down and I prayed for the first time, and I said, "God, thank you for this trial. I'm grateful for this opportunity." And I'm promise you, like, I never cried again about it. The weight completely lifted off me. The heaviness, the burden, everything was gone, and I did not even care what was gonna come out.

And I just- Wow ... celebrated the furnace because I knew then that he was there. And so that's what's beautiful, is that, you know, God still has us go through the furnace. He still has us enter the furnace. But he's like, "But I'm there. But can you..." But I think our gratitude opens the doors for him to be there with us and, like, unleashes us from...

You know, I look at it, they were bound as they were thrown in. But then he says, "Wait, they were walking around freely." And I see it as we're free when we're grateful. And, and when we're grateful, we're- Mm-hmm ... we're opening it up for him. Rachel, I love how you just said, "I celebrated the furnace." What do you think it does to us as children of our heavenly parents when we do that, when we celebrate the furnace or when we give thanks for our fiery trials, no matter what the trial is?

'Cause that's what's tricky is- Yeah ... everybody's got different furnaces. So I love how you said, "I celebrated the furnace." Why is that so important? What does it do for us? It shows us that we trust him. Mm-hmm. I, I think it's like if you, if you look at it like leveling up, like if you were in a video game and you leveled up, you got more power.

Oh, yeah. I think there's a, there's a power that gets granted to you when you can celebrate the furnace that you don't, you have no idea is there until you do it. We tell our kids all the time, like, "Hey, you g- you gotta run, you gotta work hard, but you gotta, you gotta be... You gotta actually embrace the work, the hard work."

It's, it's doing the hard work and being able to get through that and not let it defeat you is what makes you stronger. And so as we get, as we go through these trials that God gives us, as we're able to really help put our [00:51:00] focus on God and put our focus on the gratitude that we have, we're so grateful to God.

And, and you know, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego said basically like, "Hey, throw us in there and our God will deliver us," basically. "But either way, throw us in there." Mm-hmm. Whether he delivereth or not. "Because even if he doesn't, we're not gonna bow to you." Wow. Right? "We're not gonna bow to this thing." Um, and it's that standing and doing the right thing when you're supposed to that is the power in it.

And God, that power comes through obeying what God has, what God has, God has said to us. So it's, uh, it levels you up. You know, Abe, as you just said that, I had the coolest moment because the Spirit just said, "Focus on God, not the fire." And that is what both of you have just taught us, to focus on God, not on the fire.

And when we do that, we will be able to stay in that fire and have one like the Son of God come and be with us. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Wow, that was so good. Rachel, share another story. Do you have one more about this? Yes. So our son, who's now, um, playing college football, and he's a return missionary from Hong Kong, he was, um...

He had, he had a shoulder surgery. He was doing really well in wrestling, but he had a shoulder surgery, and he hadn't been able to lift heavy weights or do anything because every time he did, his shoulder would become dislocated. Well, he started the wrestling season, and the whole season his shoulder never dislocated once.

Hm. Like, he was so grateful. But he would face these big, strong guys who'd been lifting all the weights. He was wrestling 190 pounds in the state of Florida here, and he was undefeated. He made it all the way to the state championship, and it was the final match. And I found out later that before he entered this match, he was...

I, I figured he was listening to wild, you know, hype-up music, like, "Ah," you know, like getting yourself going. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, the stands, like- Gotcha ... this huge stands screaming and yelling everywhere. But he said he was listening to the Book of Mormon- Wow ... and calming his soul. And so I feel like, I was thinking about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, I'm sure they did something to calm their souls before they entered this fire, right- Hm

and this furnace. And as my son is about to enter this state championship, he'd wanted this for so many years, but he had to take a year off 'cause he had shoulder surgery. And, oh, by the way, his sister had just won her state championship right before him, and so he was like, "I've got to win 'cause I can't have her win-

it may not win." Right, right. So he was going into it, and in the first minute his shoulder dislocated for the first time the whole season. And it came, it came all the way out. He, like- Ooh ... fell. He fell back. The guy k- kind of threw him back because he was, like, trying to tell the referee, "Hey, I gotta get my shoulder back in."

And as he fell back, that made him lose five points immediately in the first minute. So he just sat there, and the trainer said as they put it back in, it was crunching as it went back in. And so here he is in severe pain, five points below in the state championship, and he looked up and he saw that he was five points below, and he just kinda shook his head, and he [00:54:00] just went out boldly to his center and to meet up with this guy again.

And they battled it out and battled it out, and his arm was just kinda dangling 'cause he couldn't use it, you know, very well. And as it went on, the adrenaline helped him to move it more, but it was, it was still in severe pain. And in the end, he won in double overtime. Wow. He came back and battled it out.

But the first thing he did after he won the state championship, after going through so many trials in the process, was he fell on his knees and thanked God. And I just feel like- Mm-hmm ... that's what... I, I love that experience because he prepared himself going in. He was reading. He was calming his soul.

Instead of firing it up, he was calming it. Mm-hmm. And that made him more powerful. Well, and going back to how we started, who, who teaches, who taught them to be prepared for that furnace, and who taught your son to be prepared for his? I just- They got that from their mama. Yeah. I just think it's important for anybody out there who's wondering, "Well, what did my kid learn?"

Maybe you have a child who's struggling. The story's not over. Yeah. That's what I love about this, is that God plays a long game. And so you just have to know that all of the preparations that you did as young little children and boys and girls, it, it wasn't all for naught. Because when they get into that furnace- Yeah

they'll be reminded. I do believe that. And in fact, that, that title will follow them as being these children, and we'll, we'll see that later on in Daniel chapter 10. Um, they will always be remembered as those children who got selected at the original in, in verse one, and, and I think that's powerful. As old gentlemen, um, no matter what you go through in your life, you will be remembered as being someone who was taught by parents.

I just think so. I don't know. I'm, I'm rambling. I'm thinking a million thoughts. Raising kids is hard. Yeah, it is. You just hope you do your best. No matter what age. That's the fire right there. That's our fire. That's the ... Right. Dude. I mean, honestly, when you've got kids who are struggling to focus on God and not on the fire, that's hard, 'cause the fire is hot.

Yeah. Just like this. Like, you feel like you might burn up from what they're going through. Right. In surprising ways, ways you never thought- Ugh ... the fire would come. Yeah. You just have to trust. So thank you, Rachel. Thank you for coming prepared for that story. Okay. So in the next segment then, we're gonna get into the lion's den, and I get to talk about that.

We'll do that next

[00:56:33] Segment 5
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Here's a fun fact about the Book of Daniel. In fact, everybody go back to the very first page of your book of Daniel. And what you wanna know is that the Book of Daniel is not in chronological order. And so that's gonna help you understand these chapters. I'm gonna give you the actual order that it should be in.

So here it is. You're gonna go one... So I'm gonna give you chapter numbers. Chapter one, chapter two, chapter three, chapter four, then comes chapter [00:57:00] seven, chapter eight After chapter eight should be chapter five, then chapter nine, then chapter six. Oh. Then after chapter six is ele- is 10 through 12, chapters 10 through 12.

So why are they not in order? Well, chapters one through six gives us the historical story. Chapters seven through 12 give us prophetic visions. So you wanna know that. And so when I was reading this, 'cause I'm going back and forth, I'm like, "When did this happen?" So know this, that the story about Daniel in the lions' den comes a little bit later, but we're gonna get into that.

So let's go to Daniel chapter 6, and I'm gonna share with you what the Holy Ghost taught me and absolutely how these words just jumped off the page to me in my fiery furnace right now. So things in my life right now are a little bit chaotic. Things with my husband's job are just kind of, things are changing for his work.

And like I said, my youngest is a senior, so life is changing. And I don't know if you have experienced this, Rachel, but as a mom you kinda go, "What's next?" Like, "What am I supposed to do with my life?" 'Cause you feel so young. Now I'm like, "Now what do I wanna do when I grow up," right? So all these changes are happening in my family, and so we've been really fasting and praying for some answers and some guidance.

And these words really spoke to me in Daniel chapter 10. But before we can get there, we just wanna go in Daniel chapter 6. We have Daniel in the lions' den, and Daniel is loved so much by Darius, and so, or Darius, however you wanna say it. In fact, verse three says he's preferred above the presidents and the princes.

Mm-hmm. But of course the presidents and the princes are very jealous, so they're gonna do whatever they can to find occasion, in verse four, against Daniel. But I love how in verse four it says, "But Daniel, he was faithful, and neither was there any error or fault found in him." And so these men devise a plan.

They're like, "I know, let's write a petition to the king and have the king sign it that nobody can pray. They only have to worship the king, and there will be a period of time where they can only worship the king, and anybody who, who goes against this is gonna have to go in to the lions' den." And so Daniel doesn't know that this was signed, so the signage of this goes in verses seven, eight, and nine.

But Daniel, in verse 10, knew not that the writing was signed. So he goes into his house and his, i- in front of his windows were open and he begins to pray. And there is the kneeling, and I love that you shared this with us, Rachel. That's your verse. "He kneeled upon his knees three times a day. He prayed and gave thanks before God as he did aforetime."

Three times a day he's gonna be praying. And of course, in verse 11, the men, the princes, and the presidents were gathering around waiting for him to do this, and so they arrest him. But Darius, or Darius, is so sad 'cause he's like, "No, I like Daniel. Wait a minute. This wasn't supposed to happen." And so look at verse 13, I think this is so beautiful, where it says, "Then answered they and said before the king, 'That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah...'"

There's that again. They are being reminded for what they were when they were young. Because fun fact, the belief is Daniel is about 90 years old when this is happening. That's how much time has [01:00:00] passed. We are talking about at least two generations of, of leadership has passed. And so they think Daniel was a really old man when he went into that lion's den.

But he's still being remembered for who he was as a teenager. Isn't that awesome? So in verse 16, the king is so sad that he's trying to do everything he can to, to find a way. Is there, like, a loophole that we will have th- so that Daniel doesn't have to go into the lion's den? And there's not. Like, he signed the paper.

He has to go into the lion's den. And so sure enough, they cast him into the den of lions, and all throughout the night, the king, in verse 18, the king went into the palace and he passed the night fasting and praying for Daniel. And so in the morning, they wake up and the king rose very early in the morning, in verse 19.

He runs to the den, and he realizes that Daniel is alive. And we just love where it says in verse 20. Abe, will you read verse 20? Yes. "And when he came to the den, he cried with a lamentable voice unto Daniel. And the king spake and said to Daniel, 'O Daniel, servant of the living God, is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?'"

And I love this. "Then Daniel said unto the king, 'O king, live forever. My God has sent his angel, and hath shut the lions' mouths, and they have not hurt me: for as much before him innocency was found in me; and also before thee, O king, have I done no hurt.' And the king was exceedingly glad for him." And then the fate of the princes and the presidents is not good, 'cause then they and all their families and their children get thrown into the lions' den, and it's pretty graphic.

I think it's interesting in these verses where it talks about how the lions then chewed them up, even their bones. Ugh. There's the story. Brutal. Brutal. Absolutely. Why did he have to throw his children in? You know, they're just extreme, like we said. Such a cold story. Intense. Intense leaders, huh? Yeah. Okay.

So there's Daniel in the lions' den. But what I loved and what really connected with me, 'cause you have that miraculous, awesome story, but there's a little subtle story that I think is so powerful. So let's turn to Daniel, chapter 9. And in Daniel chapter 9, we get into this experience where Daniel is just praying, and he's really supplicating to the Lord.

Like, he is in so much prayer. Look at verse 3. Daniel says, "And I set my face unto the Lord God to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes." So he's trying to help us understand, like, "I am not well. Like, I am so sad." And so the sackcloth and ashes is an outward manifestation.

People would put themselves in, like, this burlap sackcloth and rub ash literally on their skin as a sign to everybody who walked by, "I am sad. I am fasting. I am praying," almost in a way of saying, "Will you help me? Please pray for me or fast with me." Boy, if we still had that today, I think a lot of us would be in sackcloth and ashes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. "Heavenly Father, I need help, and I'm gonna pray to the Lord for this help." Now, he is praying on behalf of the people, and as he prays, I love his wording. So Rachel, will you please read for us verses 17 through 19? And [01:03:00] as Rachel reads this, I want you guys to underline or highlight what Daniel's asking the Lord to do, what action words he wants the Lord to do.

"Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. O my God, incline Thine ear, and hear; open Thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and this city which is called by Thy name: for we do not present our supplications before Thee for our righteousnesses, but for Thy great mercies.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for Thine own sake, O my God: for Thy city and Thy people are called by Thy name." Okay, what action words did you highlight? What's he asking the Lord to do? Give them all to me. Forgive, hearken, defer not. Yeah Incline thine ear Yeah Open thine eyes Sione Yeah, shine on me

hear I love this because you can feel the desperation, "Oh Lord, hear. Oh Lord, hearken and do. Hear. Open your eyes. Behold my desolations." Like I just, please see me and hear me- Yeah ... because here's what I'm going through. Yeah. And as he's praying, oh, I love this in verse 21, this says right here, "The man Gabriel, whom I had seen in a vision," that's the angel Gabriel.

That's the angel who's going to then come and visit Mary. And one of the things I love about this is that you also will read the name Gabriel in chapter 8 verse 16. This is the messenger of the Messiah in the Old Testament and the New, and this is the only appearance of Gabriel in the Old Testament, and sure enough, he is going to now speak of the Messiah.

That's what his role is, to present the Messiah. So he presents the Messiah and the coming of the Messiah here in the Old Testament. He'll do it again in the New, which I think is so cool. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Like He has a specific angel for specific roles. Very cool. And so I love how this is what Gabriel has to say.

He's coming on behalf of the Lord, and here's what he tells him in verse 23, and this is what struck me. "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show thee for thou art greatly beloved." That's the first thing he says. First of all, Daniel, the Lord has sent me to tell you you are greatly beloved.

And then in chapter 10, again, "And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved." And then turn the page. In verse 19 in Daniel chapter 10, "And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me."

And I think for me, I, I love the beauty of this idea where he just says, "First of all, I just want you to know you're loved, and I hear you, and I'm going to help you. But I want you to [01:06:00] know you are greatly beloved." And when I was thinking about my life right now and the things I'm going through, this idea of, of a trying time, and that's kind of been the whole message is, is this time of just discouragement and trials.

With my life, I just needed to be reminded, okay, first of all, God loves me, and He's going to hear. He's going to hearken. He's going to act. He's going to do. But when I remember, and I, and I love how both of you taught us this idea that if I can focus on God and not on the fire, then everything's going to work out, and that God will absolutely use, like Abe, I love how you said that God will literally use anything to prove His power.

Let that be my life. And Rachel, I love how you've connected this for me to re- just to remind me to fall on my knees and to continue to pray, and that as I do that, that I will be beloved. I, I love this quote. This is from Elder Uchtdorf. It's from his October 2015 conference, Be Not Afraid, Only Believe.

And here's what he had to say about this idea of how we're loved and how we can believe in God. Rachel, will you please read, and then Abe read the second paragraph. Yes. When we choose to believe, exercise faith and repentance and follow our Savior, Jesus Christ, we open our spiritual eyes to splendors we can scarcely imagine.

Thus our belief in faith will grow stronger, and we will see even more. Brethren, I testify that even in the toughest of times, the Savior will say to you as he said to an anxious father on a crowded street in Galilee, "Be not afraid, only believe." We can choose to believe. For in belief, we discover the dawn of light.

We will discover truth. We will find peace. Because of our belief, we will never hunger, never thirst. The gifts of God's grace will enable us to be true to our faith and will fill our soul like a well of water springing up into everlasting life. We will experience true and lasting joy. Thank you. I'd love to know, Rachel and Abe, if that's the only reminder you can have when you're going through the, your fiery furnace is that you are greatly beloved, how does that help you get through your fiery furnaces?

I feel like when we're loved, when we know we're loved, we're willing to do anything for anyone. And if we know we're loved by our Savior, we will fight through anything. Um, I was just talking to my kids about that the other day. I said, "I need you to know how much I love you. You need to know you're loved."

And even with your boss, think about your boss at work, right? If you know your boss appreciates you and loves you, don't you wanna just do even more for the company and for them? Mm-hmm. Right? I think we as people, our greatest boss is... We- I have a sign from Haiti that says, "Jesus is my boss." And, you know- Mm-hmm

and, and we know He loves us. If we know that, then we just wanna do everything for Him because I'm like, "Man, He really cares about me." Mm-hmm. I mean, that's why players, if they really love their coach and they know their coach cares about them as a person, then they're gonna play their hearts out for that coach.

Wow, great answer. [01:09:00] Yeah, I think when we can t- when we can connect the things that we're doing to the love that we feel f- or that we have from other, other people, I think that that, that becomes a great connection because, you know, um, I think it was before, uh, the saying is something about, like, people, they'll do really good things if you, if you make the rules to do it.

If they are obeying things, they'll do it out of obedience. And then, you know, they start to do it out of respect, and then they start to do it out of love, right? And so, um, that's the highest level. And so when you understand that you're loved and when you feel that love, it's the highest level of commitment that you can make.

And I think many of the actions that we do in our daily lives are driven by love, for those- Mm-hmm ... that we love in our family, for those that we love outside of our family. Um, and when we ha- when we drive, when we let love drive it, it's like the, the first and greatest commandment, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you to both of you. So this message of love, like, no matter what you're going through, no matter the trial or the discouraging experience or whatever fiery furnace you're in, you are greatly beloved, and that is the message of Daniel lines down and then chapter, um, 10 for sure. And I know it goes beyond the scope of what we were supposed to study, but I just kept reading, and I loved it.

So thanks for letting me do that. So for those of us who are experiencing faith, feeling troubled or unsettled, there's a phrase in Daniel chapter 7 that I wanna share with you that has really struck me, 'cause I wonder if he ever felt tried or unsettled in his faith. We'll talk about that phrase next.

[01:10:42] Segment 6
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So one of the themes we've been talking about throughout this episode, and the thing I've loved the most, is what do we do when we have these troubling times, when we f- when our faith feels unsettled and tried? And I don't know if Daniel's ever felt unsettled or tried, but there's some wording in Daniel chapter seven that really struck me as I was reading this story because he gets this really great vision.

He gets the vision of Adam-ondi-Ahman. I mean, that's exciting. Jesus is coming again. All of the things that will happen in section 116 of the Doctrine and Covenants of Adam-ondi-Ahman. And after all of this experience, I love this one little phrase at the end in Daniel chapter seven, and I wanna know how you can relate to this when it comes to having your faith tried or having experiences where you're like, "I don't know how to interpret this.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with it." 'Cause Daniel gets done talking about all of it, and then we have verse 28. It says, "Hitherto is the end of the matter." So he's like, "Here's the end of my vision. As for me, Daniel, my cogitations..." Um, no thank you. Look down to the footnote A. Thank you for telling us my thoughts.

Would've been easier, King James Version people. But anyway, "As for me, Daniel, my thoughts much troubled me." Now just sit with that for a minute. Have, have your thoughts ever troubled you? Have you ever been caught up where you're driving around and you're just... Are you guys like me where you're [01:12:00] driving?

And those are... That's the time when I'm not really thinking, but I'm thinking a ton. Mm-hmm. And I'm imagining Daniel's having one of those driving moments where he's like, "My thoughts much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me." And then he says this: "But I kept the matter in my heart." What do you think he means when he says, "But I kept the matter in my heart"?

What does that mean to you? Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like when he says he kept the matter in his heart, I mean, perhaps he's saying, you know, "This is something that has troubled me, and without..." I think he's saying, "I'm holding it close to my heart because it's important to me, and I feel like I wanna know- I wanna have an explanation for it usually.

That's what, why we're holding onto it, 'cause we don't understand why it's happening. Yeah. And so we hold it close to our hearts while trying to go out and operate as if it's not- Mm-hmm ... anywhere near our hearts, right? Yeah, you put on a good face, right? Mm-hmm. Like, everything's fine, when really... But he said his countenance actually changed in him.

It wasn't, his face wasn't fine. Wow. Why do we keep matters in our heart, Rachel? Why is that a good answer for many of us when we're going through a trial of faith? Um, some of them we don't have the answers and For the things that we don't have answers as far as, like, pain, sorrow, when we do everything right and there's still terrible things that happen.

When we do everything that we're asked to do, and then we say, "Well, why is this happening? Why is that happening?" When people who are following the Gospel seem to have more trials than people who aren't. Mm-hmm. That's a hard one for people, right? Mm-hmm. Um, for things that we might not under- things that we might not understand about the Gospel, some questions.

I think it's important to study it out and to have it in your heart. For me, and I don't know if this is going along the same lines, but this has helped me a, a lot. My mother has lost two children and has gone through a lot, um, growing up as well, and she's one of the most powerful, strong women I know.

And she says when she has those, those sadnesses and those devastations, she feels them deeply in her heart. She allows her body to feel them. She allows her heart to absorb all of it. And then she takes it, and if she doesn't have the answer to it, and she doesn't want to put it away, she doesn't wanna leave it alone and pretend like it's not there.

She kinda puts it on a shelf for a minute in her heart. Mm-hmm. Or somewhere else, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Then she can move forward and keep going. And that's helped me to physically say, "Okay, this is hard. I'm gonna feel it. I'm gonna suffer. I'm gonna let my countenance just absorb it. I'm going to take that quiet time."

Yours is on a drive. Mine is when I go on a run. Mm-hmm. And some people, it's when they're painting. Some people, when they're making music. Whatever it is, let it absorb in your soul, and then set it aside. Not... But y- I think we [01:15:00] have to feel it in our hearts. I don't know if that's- Yeah, absolutely ... what he was doing or not, but that's something that has helped me survive some deep trials.

Wow. Thank you. Abe? Yeah, I think maybe it's not for holding onto in terms of it's for holding onto to address later when you've learned more. Yeah. When you've had more experience. Mm-hmm. And not necessarily for holding onto so that like, "Okay, I'm gonna put this back in my heart, so we gonna come back to this."

Mm-hmm. Not, like, as a grudge. Right. But more so as a, "I know I can't explain this, and if I let it be the center of my life, then I'll never be able to move beyond it." Mm-hmm. So we set it on our heart. We go about what we do, and as we gain a, a greater understanding through our experiences in life, we're able to come back to it and then clean off those shelves as it comes- Yeah

as it comes to us. I love so much what the two of you have said because verse 28 to me just feels like Daniel's saying, "What I'm going through is heavy. Like, my thoughts are troubling me. This is hard, and I'm gonna just, I keep the matter in my heart," just like both of you have taught us. Like, I'm just gonna let it sit here for a minute.

I'm not leaving. I'm not, I'm not going away. I still believe in who I believe in, and I, I just think this is so... I can't wait to meet him and go, "What, what did you keep... What was going on? What troubled you?" Yeah. Yeah. Was it just the people, or did, was it person- personal. You know? What experience- Yeah

because he was a human being just like all of us, and he has a lifetime of experiences to share. And I'd love to know what he kept the mat- what was the matter that he kept on his heart. It had to have been something that he continued to pray about and think about. And so when I think about everybody, every one of us today, our thoughts trouble us, right?

We are going through difficult and trying times. In fact, just in the last general conference address, our prophet said we live in challenging times. Mm-hmm. We absolutely do. And so b- with that challenge comes troubling times, troubling thoughts, and I just love this i- idea that we keep the matter in our hearts and, and we're gonna carry it, and we're gonna carry on with Jesus.

And, um, the message again that both of you have shared has been so eloquent, this idea to focus on God, not on the fire. And I think that's the message of what to do with troubling and distressing times. So thank you. Thank you to both of you being on this episode. What a great discussion. We're done. Ta-da.

All done. Thank you. So- Thank you ... gather your thoughts and just tell me what is something you learned from our discussion today? What's one eternal truth or a takeaway that you're going to have? And I have a lot that I wrote on my paper. Oh, man, today's been amazing. I will say the thing that I leave from here with is to take every opportunity that God gives us to allow His power to be shown to, to ourselves and to other people around us.

And if we can be a part of that story, to play our part well. Hmm. I like that. [01:18:00] There are so many fiery furnaces, and sometimes it feels like it has been put on times seven. Some days we feel like, "Oh, I can enter any furnace and I'm good." We feel stronger then some days than others. And I guess I just keep thinking the times seven, and that as we, um, that we can freely walk.

I, I have been struck by that, of focusing on God and being free in that. There's something so freeing about focusing on God when you're in that furnace of, I, 'cause I guess I never really noticed how they were walking around freely. Mm-hmm. And that's just powerful to me. And, um, and that I, I love that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not careful.

Yeah. Because I, um, I hate being careful with my testimony. And I feel like I just wanna share, I just wanted to share freely what I believe and who I believe in. I love it. And you have. You both have done that so well with all of the ex- stuff that you've been doing with your children and your YouTube channel, The Sunshine Mafia, which is so awesome, um, and being on that show.

So thank you for being a light and being an example. The thing that stood out to me is, Rachel, I love that you said, "I celebrated the furnace." I think that's a great reminder to all of us, to celebrate the furnaces that we're in. And Abe, when you said God will literally use anything to prove His power.

Absolutely, including little old us, right? Little old me and my weaknesses. But I love how you, you equated that to gifts. Everybody has a gift, and He will use that to prove His power. So thank you. Excellent work, you two. Thank you. So good. Thank you. We appreciate you having us on. This is great. Oh, thank you for saying yes.

Bye-bye. Well, what eternal truth did you learn? I'd love it if you joined us on Facebook or followed us on Instagram and share what you have learned. At the beginning of the week, we post some really great things, including a question from this whole discussion. And so I'd love for you to go and check it out.

Comment on the post that relates to this question and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to our show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. And go there anyway because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today, our perfect study group participants were Abe and Rachel Mills. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember, you are God's favorite.