The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcript's imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Segment 1
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How are you when it comes to making decisions? When the Savior returns, the prophet Joel said that multitudes upon multitudes will be gathered to be judged in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, or in Hebrew, it's the valley that Jehovah judges, and he also called this place the valley of decision. So at that gathering of judgment, who's really making a decision?

Well, Hosea and Joel teach that the Lord's final decision regarding us has already been made, but it's our choices today that will affect our final decision towards the Lord. So how are you at making decisions? Who or what are you choosing today? The Come, Follow Me lesson this week is all about our choices and how they affect our moment in that valley of decision with the Lord.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And if you're new to our study group, welcome. We're so glad you're here.

So follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my longtime listening friends Nicole Cotter, Brian Matson, Paula Millington, and Lynn Cotter. And there's a very specific reason I gave a shout-out to all of those people, because the most awesome thing about each study group each week is we're joined by two of my friends.

It's always a little bit different. Today is different. I have two new friends. They've never been on, but they're longtime listeners I could not be more excited. We have Laurie Mattson and Paul Cotter. Hello, you two. Hello. Hi, Tammy. Okay. This is so much fun. So I met Laurie and Lynn in Pocatello, Idaho. They came up to meet me when I was at the Deseret Book up there, and this was, like, a year ago, wasn't it?

It was y- yeah, like February or whatever- Yeah ... when they did the open house, the... Yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah. And I've, I talked about them before. They're the twins. Yeah. And they were so much fun. I fell in instant love with these two. You and your sister are awesome. You are so much fun, so I was like, "I have to have them on the podcast."

Well, we enjoyed meeting you. Ah. And we love the podcast. It, it was such a joy to meet you guys. And when I reached out for you to be on the podcast, I could not have been happier, because Laurie, you were like, "I'm in," and then you roped in your nephew. Yeah. That's how you two know each other. Hi, Paul. Hi.

Okay. Tell me a little bit about you guys. Where do you live? Are you close to each other? And Paul, how did you get roped into this? Yeah. So we live in Idaho. I have this very unique life where my mother is an identical twin, and we grew up living one house apart from her twin. So essentially, I grew up with two mothers.

It's what's called- Yes, you did. Yeah. He, he is my firstborn son. That's what I call him. He's my firstborn son, 'cause Lynn got married before me, had two kids before I got married. He is your [00:03:00] first. Oh, I love that. I, every day, uh, I'd finish school at BYU, and then I'd go by Lynn's house, and I would hold Paul, and I'd rock him- Aw

and I'd sing to him. I'd walk the floor with him. I just loved him. So I'm a winner. I, I scored. I scored in the eternal family section. Paul, was it ever hard to tell them apart when you were a little kid? Uh, no, not really. I, I have mixed them up before- Mm-hmm ... like, not thinking, uh, on the phone. Like, they're, they're very, very similar.

But it's funny 'cause they don't really look alike to me, but they, I know they are. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So. They do look very much alike, but you knew them- Yeah ... your whole life. Yeah. So you have to understand the dynamics of our family. It's like we, it's like I have seven chil- seven children instead of just three because Lynn's four children are mine.

And whenever they needed anything or wanted me to talk their mother into something, it's like they would come to me and they'd say- ... "Laurie, you've got to talk Mom into letting us do this," or whatever. And my kids did the same thing with her. They would go to Lynn and say, "You've gotta tell Mom that this is the way it really is, and it'd be all right if we did this," you know?

So we ... And I have to tell one funny thing about our family. Please do. Paul's younger brother, when they were young, he was about four years old, and they had just finished all the boys' bedrooms in the basement. They were getting ready to go somewhere, and she told Kevin to go get, go down and get his socks.

And so, 'cause she wanted him to get his shoes and socks on. So he came down to my house and he came in the door and he says, "Laurie, I need socks." I said, "You do?" And, and she, he says, "Yeah." I says, "Does your mom know you're down here?" "Yeah, she sent me down here to get socks." And I said- ... "Well, Neil's socks are gonna be way too big for you.

He's five years older than you." "They're not going to fit," you know? And it's like, so I get on the phone and I call Lynn. I says, "Do you know that Kevin came down here to get socks?" She goes, "What?" She says, "I sent him down. I meant down to his room." "Down, down to your room." She's ... He wasn't used to going downstairs to his bedroom, so he went down to my house to get socks.

That's adorable ... but we have things like that happen all the time, and people who don't know both of us cannot tell us apart. People who know both of us can tell us apart, that, um, we have had some really good experiences. Okay. That's a hoot. I love that. Well, I love how close you are too because, Paul, you're the reason that Lori is on the podcast because you talked her into it almost.

Yeah. So we pretty much... So I live right next door to Lori. Okay. And then my mom is- One house down ... you know, two, a house down. So we pretty much have a open door policy. And, uh, I don't know, a couple weeks ago I went over to Lori's, uh, my wife and I, and she was telling us that you had made the invitation [00:06:00] and that Mom was like sh- Mom didn't wanna do it.

And I was like, "You have to do it, Lori. You have to do it. It's Tammy. Like, you have to do it." My husband also encouraged me. He says, "Yes, you should do it. Don't let fear stand in your way." It's like, "Okay." So she said she'd do it if I did it with her, and I was like, "I'll do it. I will do it." So- Aw, that makes me-

I'm your- ... so happy ... you're technically uninvited, but, uh... Oh, hey. Listen, the... I said it's rare that you meet someone where immediate you're like, "Oh, yeah, I like this person. This is gonna be good," and that's how I felt when I met Paul. Like, I already knew I liked Lori, but I was like, "You never know with a random."

We'd never met. We didn't FaceTime first, but immediately- True ... I'm like, "I'm in. This is gonna be- True ... so much fun." Okay. Everybody who's listening, they're like, "Yeah, this is gonna be fun." So if you wanna know more about my guests, check out their bios, which are in our show notes, and you can find those at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.

So grab your scriptures and something to mark them with, and we're just gonna dig in to the books of Hosea and Joel. All right, you two, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you prepared and studied for this week's discussion? Well, you know, it is so amazing. Whenever you study the scriptures, there are things that touch your heart at that time that I think God really wants you to know it.

Because we study the same thing over and over again, but they speak differently to us depending on the, what's going on in our life. And so as I read the Hosea chapters, I was just, you know, you're really impressed with the character of God, but I'm also impressed and thinking about the character of man.

And, um, I- Just thought about how Hosea was so worried about Ephraim, about Israel. He was so worried, and th- he knew they had left the covenant path. He kept inviting them back. He probably felt like he wasn't getting anywhere with them. But in Hosea 11:8 and 9 it says, "How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? How shall I deliver thee, Israel?

I will not es- execute the fierceness of mine anger. I will not return to destroy Ephraim, for I am God and not man, the, a holy one in the midst of thee." And so the phrase, "I am God, not man," totally spoke to my heart. Because sometimes I think we think God is like us, you know? Because we're trying to have this close relationship with him, and we think he's just like us, but he is so much more than we, uh, than we are.

And h- he doesn't have these, um, normal emotional, uh, baggage that we carry with us. He is, like, he doesn't struggle with, um, anger or with resentment or hold grudges or like, "Oh, I'm running out of time with you," or losing patience. He just is not rushed with us, and he doesn't see us like we see other people.

I love that he [00:09:00] sees what's in our hearts. Mm. He sees our motives. He see our, he sees our wounds, our desires, and he sees the truth that other people do not see in us. And that really helps me. That gives me a lot of hope, knowing that God is not man. Because, you know, people can be very judgmental and very critical, but God just is not that way, and he just loves to bless us and wants us to draw near to him.

And our whole purpose of being here on the Earth is to rid ourselves of this natural man. Mm-hmm. And we want to be like God. And so I'm really glad that God is not like man. So I know that's kind of a weird thing that I pulled out of that- No ... but that really spoke to me. That was a, not a weird thing, that was powerful.

In fact, as you were talking about that, I thought, "I'm gonna go right to my New Testament. At the very beginning of the Book of Matthew, I'm gonna put that phrase, 'I am God, not man.'" What a great reminder- Yeah ... as we study the life of the Savior next year. Yes. Like, He is, He is God, not man. And, and oh, wow, I just think that is awesome, Lori.

Nice job. Hey, also, really cool job for everybody who's on your page on the Book of Hosea, what you wanna do, 'cause Lori perfectly taught this, where it says Hosea, you wanna put, she said, "Ephraim," which is Israel. You need to know that when you study Hosea, 'cause you're gonna see the w- name Ephraim a ton.

And what we're dealing with right here is Hosea, and we've, we're kinda going back in history, 'cause Hosea is talking to the Northern Kingdom before they have the Assyrian captivity. So he's referring to Israel as Ephraim. So you're gonna see a lot of Ephraim and a lot of Judah. So just know that. Ephraim is Israel.

Judah is the Southern Kingdom. So make sure you have those two. Nice job, Lori. Way to go for knowing that. All right, Paul, what'd the Holy Ghost teach you? Okay. So I am a very literal reader when it- Okay ... comes to reading the scriptures. And so obviously that means that I struggle with- Then Hosea must have blown your mind.

Yes. Yes. I read it, and I was like- Ooh ... "Oh my gosh, what is this?" Right. And yeah, so but this has been so good for me, this experience, learning about metaphors and- identifying them in the- Mm-hmm ... scriptures. And as I read this story and this metaphor, I was so touched with the love that the Savior has for us.

The way that it's talked about as a marriage, the words that are used, um, betroth. Uh, he uses the word allure, and there are just these beautiful words that really helped me look at the Savior in a different way. Mm. Just as a loving ... I- and it really it's about the love that He has for us. And, and all that Israel was doing, like [00:12:00] they turned from Him.

They were ignoring Him. They were, you know, not paying attention to Him, but He's still there with that love. And when, when they do turn, He's just offers it, it wholly and completely. Mm-hmm. And I always ... One of the things that I love about the Book of Mormon is when it has ... It talks about the pride cycle and, and you're seeing this repetition over and over of they were, they were wicked, you know, and then they, they go

They're righteous, and then they, the pride comes, and they fall. And when they repent, one of my favorite things is that it talks about how the Lord immediately blesses them. Mm-hmm. And I always have this fear that, like, I have to prove myself to the Lord. Like, "Okay, you're repenting, Paul, but let's give it 90 days and see-

how you're doing then." Oh, oh, that's awe- yes. Are you still gonna be with me, you know? And, and after that time, I'll decide if I'm gonna bless you and forgive you. Oh, my gosh, Paul. Everybody is re- resonating with that right now, where you're like- Yeah ... the Lord's like, "I'll give it 90 days, and we'll check back in, and if you still haven't perfected yourself

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Paul, this is b- brilliant. Keep going. Okay, so that, that's just ... It just helped me realize and kind of feel and understand the love of the Savior through the metaphor. And there are a couple of scriptures. There's one in Hosea 13:9 where He says, "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help."

And I, it's, I love it. It's, it's beautiful. You- you've wrecked yourselves, but I'm, I'm here for you. And then in 14:4, he says, "I will heal their backsliding. I will love them freely, for mine anger is turned away from them." And I, it's, I love it. It's just so great. And this whole reading, I, it just made me think so much about the covenant relationship that we have, and that it really is a relationship that I need to be focused on with the Savior.

Mm-hmm. So Paula, I have a follow-up question then. Yes. Because you worded it. You said, "Whenever I'm repenting, I feel like the Lord's saying, 'Okay, thank you for repenting. Now in 90 days I'll check back in with you and we'll see how you're doing.'" But based on the scriptures you said, now what is he saying to you when you repent?

He's saying, "I forgive you. I love you immediately, now. Like, thank you for doing this." And it's, it's hard for us to understand that. And, and I love, like, Lori saying that- Mm-hmm ... God is not man. Yeah, 'cause we look forward, right? As humans, we're like, "Well, I'll forgive you, but you'll probably do it again."

Exactly. So I'm gonna be hesitant with my forgiveness. Yeah. But God is freely [00:15:00] forgiving. He doesn't even look forward to our future. He's like, "As of right now, boom, done." Yeah. And that's, and that's all that matters, right? Mm-hmm. Chills. I'm already feeling the Spirit so strong. Everything the two of you taught, I just want to double down and say is true.

I will just testify as a third witness that what these two taught us in this first segment is absolutely true. I am God, not man, and He absolutely loves us. Wow. In a way, because He is a god, in a way that we as man will never understand, but we have to trust, and that's the message of Hosea. This is so cool.

Thank you. Wow, you guys did awesome. Way to go. I love that the Spirit taught you that. Okay, so let's dig into Hosea and Joel. Now, as we get into these books, here's some think fun you want to know, because you look at this and you're like, "Well, why are we going back in time with Hosea if we've been studying the Babylonian captivity and now we're going back to the Assyrian captivity?"

Well, the order of the books of the prophets are out of order. So what you want to know about them is you've got major prophets and minor prophets. Now, that doesn't mean they're major or minor in significance. They're called major prophets and minor prophets in size of their books. So the major prophets are Isaiah, Jeremiah, his Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel.

Those are the biggest of the books of the prophets, so those are the major books. That's why we studied them first. Now we're getting into the minor prophets, meaning from Hosea to Malachi, the books are smaller, and that's all it means. So we are going back in time, but that's the order of the books. So in the next segment then, we're gonna dig in to Hosea and all the weird metaphors, as d- Paul told us.

We'll do that next.

[00:16:49] Segment 2
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In the book of Hosea, and Paul, you perfectly set this up by saying there's just so much crazy imagery. What you wanna know is Hosea contains a metaphor or a simile in every single chapter. And sometimes obviously there's more than one. And so for those of you who are, Paul, I love that you said you're just so, you take everything at, at word, and metaphors and similes are crazy.

They are for me too. I have to think so deeply like, "Why is he calling himself a lion?" 'Cause he does that a lot, so there's a reason. But one of the very first metaphors that we have in the book of Hosea is very troubling. So let's get into this because when we get in, in fact, I thought this was interesting by this scholar.

He says, "Hosea is marked by some of the most diverse, tensive, unusual, memorable, and provocative metaphors in the Hebrew Bible." I would agree. Yes. So this is the most provocative, tensive, boy, there's a word you don't use. This is an unusual and memorable metaphor, and it begins in Hosea 1. Let's dig into this.

Paul, will you read for us Hosea 1, and will you please read verse 2? [00:18:00] "The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, 'Go take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms, for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord.'" Okay, right there. What? Yeah.

Yeah. Tell me, what were your thoughts when you read that? Go for it, Paul. Oh my gosh. Well, so growing up as a member of the church, like, what is one of the most important things that's always talked about? Chastity, marriage in the temple. So this is, like, disturbing to me- Yes ... to read because he's telling a prophet to marry a woman of whoredoms.

Mm-hmm. It doesn't make sense. Because the Lord should be saying, "You need to run, Hosea- Yes. ... as fast as you can," right? Yeah, yeah, yes. For sure. But then Paul and I, we talked about this, 'cause I said, "Well, if we look at it through the lens that, okay, these people were- Wicked. You know? That he, he- Hosea lived in a time where the people were really wicked, and maybe this is the best God could find for him.

You know? I mean- Wow ... honestly, like, what- Yeah ... what if it's like, okay, it'd be like saying if we compared this to today, it's like, "Well, I th- I know that this girl isn't really active in the church right now, but she's got a lot of potential, and you should marry her and bring her along, and it will be okay."

You know? Because... But I do think that he used this analogy of marrying the woman because when you talk about marriage, it is a different kind of love that we have for our family members. Yes. The most intimate kind of love that we experience. And I do think that marriage teaches us how to love. Yes. You know?

It's a, it's an unselfish thing that we're more worried about our partner than we are about ourselves. And, you know, then that kind of extends to our children and our other family members. So it's something that we can identify with, this, this marriage. That and, you know, like, how, how devastated I would be if my husband left the path.

It'd just be like I told Paul, it'd be like these young kids that get married in the temple, and then a few years later, one of them says, "Oh, I don't believe in this anymore, and I'm not gonna go to church anymore, and, you know, I'm just not gonna have anything to do with that." You know? That, if we look at it maybe in that way- Yeah.

Mm-hmm ... you know, that we can identify with that because we see that happen in our day, you know? That their hearts have left the path, you know? Yes. And you have the one spouse that is faithful to God, and you have the other spouse that isn't. So those are kind of some of the thoughts I had about that.

Well, everyone listening, what she said. That's exactly it. Let's mark the word whoredoms. Okay, because you wanna know what that word means, [00:21:00] and it's exactly what Lori taught us. The word means, it, it's a couple things. It can mean someone who is committed adultery. It's somebody who has other lovers, and it's ultimately someone who's committing idolatry So the reason the, and it's everything you said, Lori, the reason the Lord uses the word whoredom right here in connection with marriage is because marriage requires this level of commitment, love, sacrifice, patience.

And so the Lord's setting up by using this connect- this connection, this marriage connection, this covenant connection to everybody, 'cause we can all relate to how important it is to stay true to the person you're married to. And right here, we have this experience where she is not true to God. Like, she has gone so far off the path with other lovers, meaning other things that she worships other than God.

That's what we're dealing with. And so as she marries the d- as Hosea and Gomer get married, then they have children, and the children's names are very important in the storyline. So let's mark their names and find out what they mean. We have their firstborn son in verse four. Oh, actually, we want to know what Gomer's name means.

Sorry. We, uh, we, uh, want to know what the wife's name means. So let's go to verse three, and Lori, will you read that for us? "So he went and took Gomer, the daughter of Diblaim, which conceived, and bare him a son." So the name Gomer means, it, or some scholars believe it to mean, to come to an end or complete.

So something's going to come to an end. That's what we want to know here in this marriage metaphor. Then they have their first son in verse four. "And the Lord said to him, 'Call his name Jezreel.'" Highlight Jezreel. And that name means God will sow, like S-O-W, as a farmer sows his field. So the imagery right there is imagine a farmer out in his field, and he's scattering seed all over his field.

So we're talking right here about the scattering of Israel. Israel, something's going to happen where they're going to be complete with this scattering, so that's what Jezreel means. God will sow or God will scatter. Then they have a daughter in verse six. Paul, read verse six, please. Yeah. "And she conceived again and bare a daughter.

And God said unto him, 'Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.'" Now, Lo-ruhamah, I love the word lo in Hebrew. It means not or no. So look, notice that when you find things. Highlight her name, Lo-ruhamah, and the meaning of it is in the verse, no more mercy.

So that's what it means, no mercy. He will have no mercy for these people. Then the next child is in verse nine, and Lori, will you read that for us, please? Then said God, "Call his name Lo-ammi, for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God." So the meaning of the name is right there. Lo means no, so he's saying Lo-ammi, and ammi is people.

Ye are not my people. That's what the name means, not my people. So highlight Lo-ammi and then go to not my people. [00:24:00] So the name set up the storyline right here. Hosea then, let's find out what his name means. At the top of the page where it says Hosea, the name Hosea is Hoshea in Hebrew, and it means salvation.

So he is representing the salvation for a people who are committing whoredoms that ultimately are going to be scattered, and because of the whoredoms they're committing, the Lord is saying, "I will scatter you, and I will not have mercy ultimately for you because you're not my people." Now, that seems kinda harsh, doesn't it?

When we've just in the first segment said, "But he's filled with so much love." And so right here, the whole idea of this is the Lord saying, "Okay, listen, I'm setting it up for you. This is how naughty they are. I want it to feel harsh. I want it to feel uncomfortable," because then in chapter three, turn the page In verse one.

Paul, will you read verse one, please? Yes. "Then the Lord said unto me, 'Go, yet love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods and love flagons of wine.'" So in our term, if you were to read that in the NIV version, it would actually be interpreted as, "Take her back."

Like, go. Because originally in chapter two, she's kicked out of the house. She's told to leave and not... Because that's exactly what you would do if you found out your spouse was cheating, right? Mm. So she's told, she's told to leave by the children, and then Hosea comes back, and the Lord says, "Okay, you need to actually take her back."

And you can imagine, uh, all of your friends. I mean, if you were in this situation, and you said to your friends, "I'm taking her back," what would your friends say to you? You're nuts. Yeah. What's wrong with you? Yeah. Yes, you're absolutely crazy. She's a person of whoredoms, or he's a man of whoredoms. Don't take him back.

Look at all the damage that he's done. And so that's the message of Hosea then, using this marriage metaphor, goes so beautifully into what Paul taught us because here's the message. Let's turn to Hosea 2:19. Paul, I'm gonna let you read this verse 'cause this is, this is part of your word right here. Great.

"And I will betroth thee unto me forever. Yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness and in judgment and in loving kindness and in mercies. I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness, and thou shalt know the Lord." Now, why did that word betroth s- why does that stand out? Well, it's such a strong word if you study it.

Um, when you look at what an, a betrothal or an engagement meant to the Israelites, it's so different than what it means to us. Um, it was- Tell me ... it was a commitment, right? Like, a serious commitment. Um, and it was, there was money involved. Mm. So you would be, you would be [00:27:00] betrothed, and, and you would, you would pay.

And you would pay by money or by service. And so- Going along with the metaphors with this, it just makes me think of how special it is what our Savior has done for us. He has bought us. Yes. He bought us with his blood and with his actions, with everything that he did, and we are betrothed to him. It's, it's not something that we can...

You just, he's not gonna change his mind. Mm-hmm. This is for real, and I j- I just love that idea that he would do that for us. And then to go along with what Paul says about if we compare this to the Savior, this betrothal, I think that then the man went back to his father's tent, and he- Mm-hmm ... prepared a place for his wife.

So he extended the stakes of the tent, right? Yeah. And so what happens is we have Christ going back to our Father and preparing a place for us in his house through- Yeah ... that love that he has demonstrated and that commitment, that betrothal that he has given to us. So I think that is, like, awesome. Oh, it's so awesome.

So let's do this. We have a betrothal scripture chain that we're gonna put into our scriptures right here in Hosea. There are so many more verses in Hosea where the Lord is saying, "Listen, I know you've, I know you're committing whoredoms, and I'm going to scatter you. And it, the no mercy, not my people 'cause you're so wicked, but I really love you, and I'm gonna take you back, and I, because I'm betrothed."

I love what you just taught us about that, Paul. I've already paid the price. The, the contract has already been made. It's not null and void, and I'm not gonna cancel my end, so you might as well hold up yours. So here's the betrothal scripture chain. We just read verses 19 and 20. Lori, will you please read chapter two, verses 22 and 23?

And then we'll put a scripture reference next to those two. "And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil, and they shall hear Jezreel. And I will sow her unto me in this earth, and I will have mercy upon her that had not been obtained mercy. And I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people, and they shall say, Thou art my God."

I love how he's using the names of the children there and turning them around now. Like, "Oh, I know I said you weren't my people and I wouldn't have mercy, but I will." So next to those verses, let's put chapter 13, verse nine, and let's go there. And Paul, will you read that for us, please? "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself, but in me is thine help."

We had that already, which was shared. Lori, next to verse 9 put verse 14. Will you read verse 14, please? Okay. "I will ransom them from the power of the grave. I will [00:30:00] redeem them from death. O death, I will be thy plague. O grave, I will be thy destruction. Repentance shall be hid from mine eyes." Wow, brilliant.

I love that. I love the word ransom right there. That's one of my favorite words for the Savior. The next one is, next to verse 14, put chapter 14 verse four, which we've already shared, but it's in, it's in our betrothal scripture chain. And Paul, read verse four since it's your verse. "I will heal their backsliding.

I will love them freely, for mine anger is turned away from me." Wow, thank you. So we have this betrothal scripture chain. That's the message. That's the point of Hosea. No matter what, no matter... And I love, Paul, how you said that's when you repent. The Lord's not saying, "Well, come back in 90 days." That is the best metaphor for this, I think, for this whole book.

Like, I'm gonna put that at the beginning of my thing. He doesn't say, "Okay, we'll come b- we'll see how you do. Like, you say you're sorry now, but you..." You know, He doesn't look forward. In this moment He's saying, "If you will just return to me, I'm here. And I love you, I love you, I love you. No matter how naughty you've been, no matter how many sins you've committed, I'm never gonna stop loving you."

That is the message of the Book of Hosea. And so throughout this book we're going to find more metaphors and more similes where the Lord is just begging us to return, begging us to come back to Him because He has so much love for us. In fact, go to Hosea 2:19, and we just wanna mark this word where it says, "And I will betroth thee unto me forever.

Yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving kindness." The word loving kindness is hesed. So you wanna know that right there. Yeah. So there's our covenantal love. So in the next segment then, I, my guests Lori and Paul are going... The, I asked them if they would be willing to find metaphors or similes and come prepared to talk about one that stood out to them, and they did.

And I can't wait. So in the next segment, Lori's gonna teach us hers. We'll do that next.

[00:32:09] Segment 3
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All right, Lori, here we go. I'm, can't wait. 'Cause Lori and Paul are gospel doctrine teachers. They've done it for a long time. Oh. So I know they're, th- they're gonna do this. Lori, what metaphor or simile stood out to you from the Book of Hosea? Okay, well, I really liked Hosea, um, chapter 14, verse five, and it says, "I will be as the dew unto Israel.

He shall grow as the lily and cast forth his roots as Lebanon." This is one of those scriptures that r- really give you hope. It describes God's love and His forgiveness, and the power to help us grow spiritually when we turn to Him. So if I break it down and I just start with, um, "I will be as the dew unto Israel," I thought about the dew, and the dew just usually appears in the morning.

Mm-hmm. And, um, it doesn't last very long, but the dew does provide [00:33:00] an essential moisture for the plants, especially in that barren, dry country. And so if we compare, uh, the Lord's love to the dew, just think about what His love can do for us, and how it can nourish us and refresh our souls. I love that thought.

It, and the thing I love about that w- f- just when you, as you were just talking about that, is we don't have to do anything to get- Yeah ... dew in the morning. It's there. Like, it just comes. Yeah. When we wake up, it's just there on the grass. Yeah. And so I just now connected that, like, we don't have to work for it.

It automatically does it. Oh, my gosh, that's so cool, Lori, what you just told us. So I like the idea that we don't really have to have, get all the strength that we need on our own, that we can turn to the Lord, you know, to renew our spirits and to renew our faith. And so, and then I thought about the dew is just this gentle refreshment.

Mm-hmm. You know? It's not like a downpour. It's, it's a daily nourishment, and I think sometimes we probably don't even give the dew the credit that it's due for it and for what it's accomplishing. But if we compare that to our own spirituality, our daily spiritual habits become our dew. Mm-hmm. And so we are nourished through those things that we do, and it's gentle, and it's just comes a little at a time.

And sometimes we don't see the results of those daily spiritual habits that we have, but then other times, you know, when something's happening in our life, it's there, and we draw upon it, and it gives us strength, and it helps us through the situation. And sometimes you'll have something that happens in your life, and you'll look back on it and you think, "Oh, my word.

How did I ever get through that? How did I do that?" Mm-hmm. And it's like, well, it was that daily dew, you know, that s- those spiritual habits that we have, those things that we do that invite the Spirit to be with us. And, uh, yes, go ahead. I have a question for you then. Okay. Give me an example from your life about a time when you look back and you're like, "I don't know how I made it, but it was because of the dew."

Well, this will be emotional because we had, we were going through a very difficult time with our oldest son. And it was heartbreaking, you know? And, um, I just spent all my time, you know, like any spare time I had, I was just in the Book of Mormon. I was just reading the Book of Mormon, you know? And I didn't realize until after we were through everything that had, that had happened what a sustaining, um, spiritual, um, voice the Book of Mormon was in my s- to my soul.

And that I could go about my daily activities, I could be with my other children, I could be, you know, in the classroom teaching and ha- find joy and happiness, and still have sorrow in my [00:36:00] heart for this child. And, um, I, I know it was because of the Book of Mormon. You know, I, I know it was because of the hope that I found in there, and that the things that I learned about agency in the Book of Mormon.

Mm-hmm. You know, that this child has his agency, and he has to figure this out for himself. And I cannot force it upon him. And that was a... Sometimes that's a really hard lesson for mothers to learn. Yeah. That children have their agency, and they have their own minds, and some are more s- strong-minded and strong-willed than other children, you know?

Mm-hmm. And, and we laugh because my youngest child, he's just like so, he's so much like his father, and he's so easygoing, and just, he would just never disappoint you, you know? Mm-hmm. And, um, so it, I, I, I think that that daily nourishment of the two- Yeah ... those spiritual habits really can have an impact on how the Holy Ghost can help us get through a hard time.

And, and that's- Mm-hmm ... just, you know, there are lots of- Thank you ... I'm su- I know there are lots of times in our lives that we rely on that. But it just, it makes me think how important that pr- daily prayer is and our scripture study, and attending in our meetings, and trying to follow the prophet, you know?

And- Yeah ... and just digging in and trying to, trying to really get to know the Lord and, and strengthening our relationship with him. You know, that really makes a difference in our lives. I love that. And I, I just have to say how fun this is because I taught in institute this week. I got to teach about symbols in scripture, and I said, "Have you ever been reading your scriptures and you read something and you're like, 'What in the world?'"

And everybody raised their hand. Like, oh, of course, right? Everybody can relate to that. And I said, "If you ever read a verse of scripture and think, 'What in the world?' that's your invitation to just stop and start to study. Like, look up each word." And so what Lori has done is a perfect testament to your what-in-the-world moments.

If you would... 'Cause I, as we read that, like, "And I will be as the dew unto Israel," that's a what-in-the-world moment, and you just perfectly taught the most amazing sermon on just those one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight little words. And you, we felt the spirit, and you testified to us how important that the Savior has been in your life for those moments you're like, "How did I get through that?"

So thank you. Yes, I'm ready for the next one because, "He shall grow as the lily and cast- Yeah ... forth his roots as Lebanon." I love- What in the world? I love that. Okay. So he shall bloom as the lily. I love that because, you know, um, lilies are, have a beautiful blossom. Mm-hmm. And they have a strong fragrance.

Yeah. And so they're not only beautiful, but they are very fragrant. And this idea that as we follow the Lord and, you know, we let the, His spirit refresh our souls, then we will just blossom, you know? Wow. And we will be beautiful, and we will be- Mm-hmm ... fragrant. And I know that you have seen this in people who have grasped the gospel, you know, like, for the first [00:39:00] time, and they, they change.

They blossom. They become just a beautiful person, you know? Yeah. Because it changes their heart, and they have this light about them that they hadn't be- had before. So they have this outward beauty, and that's kind of what I think may b- be- maybe the blossoming of the lily is, is like, it's our outward- Yes

beauty of, of what our heart feels for the Lord. And, and, um, as we become more committed to the Savior, then I just, we just continue to blossom. And I, um- I love that thought, that it shows in our countenance, and I think that's, that's what this blossom means. That as we are living the gospel and drawing close to our Savior, that it will show in our countenance, and we will become more loving and more patient and more humble and forgiving, and I, I like that thought.

Wow. So, um- Beautiful ... so I think it's interesting because I think no matter how far we feel we have wandered, the, the Lord can help us change and blossom into something beautiful. Yep. Okay. May I, can I make a comment? Yes. Yes, please. Please? I like what you said about the blossoming. Uh-huh. That was awesome, and you said it how we see it in others.

Uh-huh. And when you were saying that, I was thinking how great would it be if we could recognize times in our lives where we've had that blossom? Oh, for sure. And I was just thinking about different times in my life where I've felt that, like my mission. Mm-hmm. And I even, like during COVID, like- We were studying Book of Mormon that year, and I just felt like that was such

I, I mean, it was a traumatizing year. Mm-hmm. And just I really focused a lot on my gospel study, and I felt like it was pivotal for me, and that I, I did blossom- Mm-hmm ... in that sense. And I think that'd be a cool thing for people to do is just to identify, stop and think and identify some times in your life where you've been blessed to- Mm-hmm

to blossom like that. Well, it's interesting- Wow ... that you say that because I had told Paul that I had pulled out ... I saw a folder that I ... It was, um, notes that I had from teaching the Old Testament. And I pulled out the Hosea lesson, you know? And I, I knew what it had, you know? And I said, "Oh, wow, I've really matured in eight years."

I've matured spiritually. And it's like- Love it ... I would hope. I would hope so, you know? I would hope that I have grown in the last eight years spiritually, you know, since I taught that last lesson. But it's like I think we do need to give ourselves some credit. And the Lord does- Mm ... give us credit. And so I think that we, uh, you know, I think that's part of that covenantal confidence- Yes

that, um, Elder Soares talked about. Yeah. I think we will become more confident. Well, and how much do you love that from what I understand, um, lily is a bulb plant. Yes. Like, you [00:42:00] plant the bulb and it comes up year after year. I've learned that with my husband, 'cause he's a big time planter. And every year he's like, "We need to go get perennials and annuals."

And in my mind, I'm like, "I can't tell the difference between the two." But apparently a perennial comes back every year, but an annual you have to replant every year. Is that right? That's right. So a lily would have been a perennial, meaning the bulb is already there. It's going to flourish. It's going to grow.

And I just think about us as covenant keepers. When we make our covenants, the covenant is there. Our, our commitment to Him and, and we're ... And some ... And I just, I love that idea, like, we don't have to replant that every year. We've already made that covenant with Him. And so how beautiful that the dew of Israel will grow as a lily.

Ca- ... And then tell me this, "Cast forth his roots as Lebanon." There's a lot of that in here about Lebanon. Okay. Well, I like this because- Um, we talk a lot about roots in the church. Yeah. We do. I mean, that's something we're all pretty familiar with. But I understand that in Lebanon there are trees that are really old and have really di- deep and sturdy roots.

Yeah. And so that's what he's comparing this to is that, you know, these big cedar trees have these established roots that they can withstand, you know, different climate and changes in wind or whatever that comes upon them. And so you have to ask yourself, you know, how deep is your root? You know, what does your root look like?

I love it. Mm-hmm. And I love the talk by President Nelson that he talks about the Salt Lake Temple, you know, and the foundation of the Salt Lake Temple. And I don't know if you have watched any of the sh- short videos on, um, Dedicate- Oh ... that they've been doing on the temple. Right. Well, I was so thrilled with the second one because, you know, he takes those, those young adults in there into the lab, and he shows them what they did and how they had to make the bottom of the temple be able to sway back and forth but not go off of the rails, you know?

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it's like kind of a bowl thing, and he showed that to us, and I thought, "That is, like, totally awesome," you know? And so I think about that it's imperative that we have this strong spiritual foundation. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And actually, you know, as we're doing the, the daily do, you know? Mm-hmm. As nourishing the daily dos, you know, we are just reinforcing that foundation.

And I have a really good quote from that talk. Paul, do you wanna share that? "We are sparing no effort to give this venerable temple, which had become increasingly vulnerable, a foundation that will withstand the forces of nature into the millennium. In like manner, it is now time that we each implement extraordinary measures, perhaps measures we have never taken before, to strengthen our personal spiritual foundations.

Unprecedented times call for unprecedented [00:45:00] measures." Oh, don't you just love that? Yes, absolutely. I just love that. Oh, my goodness. So I just felt, I just felt like this whole scripture taught me that, okay, I, my daily consistent effort to build my spiritual roots is gonna pay off. You know? Mm-hmm. That the Lord really does want me to be spiritually strong.

He does not expect me to walk this journey alone. And, um, when we turn to the Savior for that nourishment, He will strengthen us little by little, and sometimes we don't even know we're storing it up, but we are storing it up. And what a beautiful thing. Amen. That, that's what I learned. Wow, that was so good.

And now when you go back to how we started with Paul's wor- verse in verse four, the Lord says, "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. I will be as the dew unto Israel: for he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon." Now that makes so much more sense.

Beautifully done, Lori. Beautiful. Thank you. Oh, that was good. Okay. There's more metaphors and similes, so Paul is up next, and he's gonna teach us his what in the world moment. We'll do that next.

[00:46:21] Segment 4
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All right, Paul, your turn. What did you find? This is gonna be fun, especially 'cause how you said at the very beginning, you take things literal, so I can't wait. Yes. Well, you're gonna love this. Yeah, his is good. Okay. It's really good. Okay. So I named my metaphor. I've worked in marketing my whole career, so- Okay

I had to do it. So I'm calling it Eating But Never Being Filled: Hosea's Metaphor of Spiritual Hunger and Nourishment. Because who doesn't love a good food metaphor, right? Oh, sign me up. I'm already in. Hold on. I'm writing the name of that for Eating and Never Being Filled Okay. We have a food metaphor.

This is so good. Where is it? Okay, so we're gonna start by reading Hosea 4:10. Okay. And that kind of sums up the metaphor, and it says, "For they shall eat and not have enough because they have left off to take heed to the Lord." So here Israel is eating food, but they're... It's not enough. They're still hungry.

Why are they still hungry? It says because they've left, they're not taking heed of the Lord. So in my simplistic mind, my literal mind, I saw that they didn't have enough to eat, and they were eating, but they weren't following the Lord, so I put those two together. To me, that's the metaphor of spiritual hunger.

And so as I studied Hosea, I noticed how often he used that imagery of food, um, water, bread, eating, nourishment. And I found a pattern where- Ah ... first of all, Hosea, Israel forgets who nourishes them. Israel [00:48:00] rejects the guidance that the Lord offers them. Israel experience- experiences spiritual emptiness, and then Israel is invited to return to the Lord.

And so that's kind of how I want to go, where I wanna go with this metaphor. Okay. So let's, let's read what has happened to them. And so if someone would read in Hosea chapter 2, I wanna read verses 5 and 8. Okay. Tammy, do you want to read that? I would love to. Here we go. So these are, this is describing Gomer and his relationship with Hosea.

"For their mother hath played the harlot. She that conceived them hath done shamefully. For she said, 'I will go after my lovers that gave me my bread and my water, my wool, my flax, mine oil and my drink.'" And then verse eight, "For she did not know that I gave her corn and wine and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal."

That's good, Paul. So Tammy- Yeah ... what has Gomer done here? Well, she went somewhere else to find everything the Lord has already provided for her. Yeah. And she's actually, I see this all the time in the world, where it's literally right here before us, and we think, "Oh, but it could be better over here or somewhere else."

And so we do go off after other lovers thinking, "Surely I could be happier in this scenario." And the Lord's like, "I've had it here the whole time. I've had plenty of corn, plenty of wine, plenty of oil for you. Gold and silver even." My goodness. Yeah. Everything. He provided everything for her. Wow. Yes. And in verse eight it, it goes on, and it says...

I was thinking, "Why did she leave?" And here he says, "She didn't know that I gave it to her." And I thought, how could she not know? Honestly, how could she not know? Yeah. And then I thought, well, maybe she did know and she forgot it- Mm-hmm ... because she was seeking after these other things. She was looking- Yeah

for things elsewhere. So this kind of, you know, strengthens that metaphor. She is looking for nourishment from other sources besides the Lord, and so she is eating and she's not being filled because the Lord is, and His nourishment is what will truly fill us. Wow. Okay, so now I wanna- More ... let's, let's- Yeah

do another one. This is so cool- Uh- ... Paul. I love that Paul found a pattern. That is so awesome. Wow. Talk about going above and beyond, you two. All right. So Lori, will you read Hosea 4:6? Okay, let's see. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou has forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

Okay. So why is it saying that they've left? What do they lack? Knowledge. Right. Mm-hmm. So [00:51:00] they lack knowledge, but then he also says that they rejected knowledge. And so to say that they rejected knowledge implies to me that they had- Had it at one- ... the knowledge at one time. Oh, yes. They knew the commandments.

They had made a covenant, and they turned away from it. Mm. And they, they chose that. And so by turning away from the Lord and seeking nourishment from other gods, Israel is now eating food that's not filling them. Mm-hmm. They are spiritually hungry. Wow. So- And it's a natural consequence. It is. And, but we think, we think, "Oh, he's so vengeful, and all these things are happening."

It's like, no, this is a natural consequence- Right ... of their choices. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They, they did it to themselves. Yeah. Right? Right. So I'm, I'm very literal in my reading of the scriptures, but I also, I, I want to find practical application. So when I read this, and I was thinking about this, in my mind, I see this that Israel was trying to dictate the terms of the covenant relationship.

Ooh, that's good. Yeah. This is what we're going to do. This is what you said, but this is what we're going to do. So this is where it becomes very real to me and very practical. Okay. Okay. And so when I look at my life, I, I see this pattern in myself and in others. And so I made a name for it, and I'm calling it the rule of exception.

Cool. And in the rule of exception, I don't blatantly ignore what the Lord is telling me. Rather, I acknowledge that he's asking, what he's asking me to do, and then I make modifications to it that better fit my life. Mm-hmm. So here's what rule of exception language looks like in my head. That doesn't really apply to me because- Yeah

my situation is different because- Mm-hmm ... or, "Well, I'm gonna do it this way because..." Now, it's very, very natural for me to implement the rule of exception. I'm very good at it. Yeah. Oh my gosh, Paul, no wonder I love you so much. You know what? My patriarchal blessing literally warns me against rationalization- Oh my gosh

'cause I'm so good at it. I love it. That's the only thing it warns me about. Oh, carry on. I think it's best- You're speaking my language ... for you. Yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely. So we're just really good at justifying things, and I can literally reason my way out of anything if I want to, and it's, it's, it's natural for us.

So I'm, I'm going to be vulnerable here, and I'm gonna share something that I do this in, that, that I apply this rule. And I apply this rule in fasting. [00:54:00] Okay. I am a lazy and pathetic faster. I start my fast, I, I'm, I'm prepared, and typically start my fast before I go to bed Sunday night, Saturday night, which is usually midnight.

Sure. Sure. I, my first meetings start at 6:30 AM on Sunday, so obviously I skip breakfast, 'cause who's gonna get up that early anyways to eat? Yeah. And right now our church ends at 11, so you can get home and you can have a meal and eat fairly close to noon. So that's the extent of my fast, and it's embarrassing to say that, but it's, it's the reality of the majority of my fasts.

But let me tell you how I justify this, okay? Okay. Because there is a part of the law of the fast that I obey, and it's the fast offering. And I give a very generous fast offering. And in my mind, that justifies Paul, I love you so much. What am I doing? That was Peter, and we just got done reading Isaiah and- Isaiah

and we're supposed to fast. You bet. Oh my goodness. We just finished that this week. Wow. So I'm just being totally real here. Yeah. Okay? And I love you for this. So, yeah. So- Although I always thought everybody else but me was perfect and stuff ... I know. I know. And sometimes I feel guilty, like, "Oh, I shouldn't bear my testimony because I'm not fasting."

But so that's an example of, of how I might rationalize, rationalize things and, um, change and adapt things and just get into a habit of doing that. I'm curious, and I'd like to ask you guys- Yeah ... if there's anything that comes to your mind when, when we talk about this? Oh my goodness, yes, because I'm such a rationalizer.

I mean, you called me out on the fasting thing for sure. Because we can't make it to 6:00 or 7:00 for, for fasting.

And, and or any time a headache hits me I'm like, "Oh, I'm done. I got the headache. I got the fasting headache," so that probably is my body saying, "It's not good. You probably shouldn't..." I mean, we always, my friends and I joke, I'm down a couple meals. Like, that's not good for my body. I can't be down that many meals.

And so I think I'm with you, Paul. Fasting is such a hard one that I, it's so easy to rationalize. And I love that you brought this up because I know I have the knowledge, but I absolutely rationalize it. In fact, it made me go back. I, I was just looking at this verse in Hosea chapter 7 verse 8, because verses 4 through 11 is a baking analogy.

It's all about b- bake baked goods and the same thing. And when it says right here, "Ephraim," that means me, "is a cake not turned?" Like, that is so me. I mean, I just, in my stubbornness, I'm just gonna sit there and get burned. That's what I'm gonna do. Yeah. [00:57:00] Because it's ... I, I love that I wanna get burned. I'm a cake not turned.

When the Lord's like, "You could be so perfect. You could be the best Pillsbury soft, luscious vanilla cake," but you're gonna burn. And I'm like, "Yeah, I like it here." Yeah. Well, I like what you're saying there because I'm the one who is missing out- Yeah ... on the blessings by not obeying the full law of the fast.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. But the, the Lord, He still has it. It's still there for me. And the moment I decide I'm going to fast properly, I'll get that blessing, and I'll have that. Mm-hmm. So I'll be texting you, uh- Please do ... the next Fast Sunday. And, and we'll do it. 'Cause Paul, have you ever done this though? Have you ever done, like, a full complete fast and then said to the Lord, "I'm doubling down, so you better answer me."

Oh, gosh- Like, I'm serious about my fast ... well, that's the way I do it. When I'm serious, it's like, okay, I'm really gonna fast. In fact, I'm gonna go 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm- Wheels ... I'm going full bore. Yeah. Yeah. So Heavenly Father, I'm not messing around. I'm gonna plan- Yeah. I'm gonna plan it so that I go to bed, you know-

and then do it for, break it at breakfast. That gives me 12 more hours or eight more hours, you know? I'm gonna go to bed at noon so I can eat tomorrow- Yeah ... at noon. Oh, Paul, what a great metaphor, 'cause you're right. I, I, I have been eating, but I'm not full. Yeah. And now I'm, I'm applying that to f- my Fast Sunday.

My Fast Sunday could be so much more full. Yeah. That's good. Okay. But there's still more because listen, this has been such a great discussion, so in the next segment we're gonna have another discussion about another metaphor or simile in the Book of Hosea, and I can't wait. We'll do that next

[00:58:56] Segment 5
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All right, Paul, guide us. What's another one that you found? Because as we were talking, Paul and Lori came so well prepared that we're actually scrapping what we were gonna talk about in segment five, and we're just gonna do what they have because this has been s- I'm getting filled, man. Talk about food and f- and loving this.

So Paul, what do you have? Okay, so this is still playing on the, the nourishment metaphor. Okay. Uh, it's Hosea 12:1. Okay. And I, I'm just gonna read the very first part, and it says, "Ephraim feedeth on wind." Mm. Yes. So I think that is such a great visual. Feeding on the wind. We live in Idaho. Yeah. It's always windy here.

I could go outside. I could turn and face the wind, open my mouth, stand there for an hour- ... and nothing's gonna happen. I'm not gonna consume anything. No, no. And so what, like, if we, if we take this to a practical application, what do you guys think it means to feed on the wind? [01:00:00] On stuff that isn't nourishing, you know?

On just wasted things. Mm-hmm. Well, I, I love this so much 'cause when you read east wind in scriptures, it's actually symbolic for destruction. Oh, yes. Right. Yeah. And so that right there, and they followeth after destruction. Like, they're feeding on this not good wind, and like you said, it's ne- like, I love it.

I could open my mouth and I'll never get filled. They're feeding on nothing, and it leads to their destruction. That's right. Yes. Oh, my goodness. And they can't see it. That's the thing is they, they cannot see what it is doing to them, you know? Their, their eyes are blind to where, what it's doing. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. I love that. I feel like there are so many things that we seek after in life, whether it's love, belonging, uh, companionship, just peace, whatever it might be, and we have all these things that we go to to try and fill those voids in our lives, whether, um, maybe it's success and, and we strive for that.

Maybe it's possessions. Maybe it's entertainment to, to fill- Yeah ... our time. And there are just a lot of things, and these things are not bad when you look at them individually, but when we use them to try and feed us and nourishment, and nourish us and solve a problem that they were never meant to solve, that's where it gets bad for us.

And I just think that we could spend our lives pursuing after so many of these things when the answer is right here in front of us. The answer is Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He has everything that we need. Mm-hmm. Well, I wanna know, does Lori have something? 'Cause you asked in the last segment, is there something that we think we're eating and we're not getting filled on, 'cause Lori seems so sweet.

I doubt there's anything sweet Aunt Lori could say. But do you have your own example of your, like, your own rationalization or your own food you eat where you're like, "This isn't nourishing"? Okay, this is like true confession. It really is. I feel like I'm not- True confessions with Paul Cotter. That's what we're gonna call it.

Okay. I, I feel like I'm not a very good prayer. You know? Oh. I, I pray. Uh, but I say beautiful prayers in my head, you know? Mm-hmm. But like sometimes morning prayer doesn't happen till 11:00 in the morning, you know, where I'm kneeling down. But I've had a prayer in my heart all morning long, and I've been doing other stuff and reading and whatever.

But sometimes to actually get down on my... And now I have no problem doing it in the evening or doing it with my husband or whatever, but individually, it's so hard for me to say it out loud. Hmm. I just feel like I'm so much more articulate in my head, which I know that to me that sounds like I'm [01:03:00] weak, you know, because I, I don't know, maybe I'm missing the boat by not-

verbalizing more. You know how President Vandenberg always said, "Pray out loud." Yeah. You know, touch your scriptures every day, pray out loud. And I do pray out loud, but, but not- And, well, I don't know. I feel like maybe I lack there. Well, that's- But I pray a lot. Yeah. But it's in my heart, you know? I feel like I'm always carrying a prayer in my heart.

Oh, I think that's really kind of interesting because going back to what Paul taught us about that word where she was eating water, wool, bread, flax, and oil, but it wasn't what God had given her, 'cause He had already given that to her. I think Satan has done such a great job of scaring us out of praying out loud, that he's, he's saying, "Oh, no, no, you, you, you can't do that."

Like, that's such a misnomer, and we don't really believe that. Like, we absolutely should pray out loud. Yeah. And the Lord wants to have a conversation with us, and so I think he's kind of made it a little messy for us, like not being able to pray out loud. Wow, that, that's fair. I like that one. That's a good one.

Yeah. I'm weak there. Well, I, I mean- Well- ... I think it's great to always have a prayer in your heart. Yeah. Yes. And I am those people, too, that I'm always talking to God- Mm ... in my mind. But there is power in, like, taking time- Yeah ... to kneel down- Mm-hmm ... in your closet or wherever- Yeah ... it is, and just have that conversation with Him.

Mm-hmm. Well, like I had justified that He doesn't care. It's 11:00 in the morning. That's my morning prayer. And I kind of agree with you. I, I think that might be okay. At least you're praying, right? You know, it's like, I'm gonna do that as soon as I finish this, I'm good. You know? But for everyone it's something, right?

And it's always the little things, too, that you can start with. Because there's a great... Here's another one in Hosea. Go to Hosea 6:4. And this kind of plays back on what you had taught us, Lori, with what stood out to you. But this verse is really interesting where He says to us, and will you read that for us, Lori?

Y- Hosea 6:4. "O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Jo- Judah, what shall I do unto thee? For your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away." Wow. So yeah, their love is not consistent. They aren't- Yeah ... consistent in being faithful to the Lord, you know? Well, and how interesting that the word goodness right there in verse four, h- um, circle that.

In Hebrew it's not goodness, it's hesed. Like our covenant love that we have for Him is as a morning cloud, as early dew. It goeth away because of just our poor choices and the things that we're doing. In fact, don't you love that Hosea 6 starts with, "Come and let us return unto the Lord." Just a simple, like, come.

Yeah. And, and we don't, and so He's just saying, "Your hesed, your covenant, your end of the bargain is fleeting. But I, I am right here. I'm not going anywhere, so just return to me. And return to me in all the little things." Like, this is a great check for everybody. What are the [01:06:00] little things that maybe you're not fully partaking of?

What are the little things where the Lord's like, "I could fill you up if you just did this." So it's, it's a great reminder to us of the little things because- The little things lead to big things, right? And I think the little things are what change our hearts. Mm-hmm. And that's what we're really trying to do is, is change our hearts, not just go through the motions.

You know, like when we say, "Oh, my heart's not in it," that's not exactly what God wants. He wants our heart to be in it, you know? It- Absolutely ... what's our motive? What's our motive for, for studying the scriptures, or for saying our prayers, or, or for attend our, our meetings, you know? What's in our heart? And what do we take to us?

Do we, do we go to our meetings with a broken heart and a contrite spirit? Mm-hmm. You know, I had this really neat experience in the temple a couple of weeks ago, and I was... I'm a temple worker, and so I was in the clothing, and it was quiet. We don't have very many people that, you know, come in red clothing.

And so it was quiet, and I had picked up the scriptures, and I was going to just, um, read it from the Book of Mormon from where I w- left off at home, you know? And then I thought, "Oh, no, I'm just gonna open it up and see what it says, see where I'm at," you know? And I was on Mosiah 2 and about, um, King Benjamin calling all the people together, you know?

And that the people had brought their families and their tents, but the thing I'd always overlooked, it said, "And they brought the firstlings of their flocks," you know- Mm-hmm ... "to make sacrifices to the Lord." Yeah. And I thought about this and I thought- What, you know, what am I bringing as a sacrifice to the Lord when I am going to my meetings or when- Mm-hmm

I'm coming to the temple or when I'm saying my prayers? You know, what am I bringing? And I, am I bringing that broken heart and contrite spirit that is my sacrifice, you know? Wow. And that just really touched me, and that was right before general conference, you know? Wow. And, and you know, there's a lot of hype on the things that you can do to get ready for general conference, you know?

And I do my own personal things that, to, to that, that I feel like I'm getting ready for, um, general conference. But it's like, it's this whole attitude of am I, what am I bringing? What am I sacrificing? Wow. Am I bringing the broken heart and contrite spirit to that? Well, in that same vein then, let's end with this verse.

Hosea 6:6. Paul, will you read that? Talking about sacrifices and what the Lord wants, the sacrifice from us. This is powerful. "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." I love how he just says it there. Yeah. Yeah. What's your first thing? Your first thing is mercy.

That's what he wants from us. Yeah. Mercy and a knowledge of him. Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. That's really cool. I've been thinking a lot about that, 'cause I'm getting ready to teach a lesson on justice and mercy, and I've noticed throughout the scriptures we are constantly commanded to be merciful unto other people, but we're never commanded to be just.

Mm. It's a n- like, it's fascinating to me. Like, he's [01:09:00] never like, "Yeah, and you should be... Nope. Just offer mercy." Because I got a streak of justice in me like nobody knows. I mean, I want the world to be fair, everything. And I, and I love how the Lord's like, "Nope, you just gotta be merciful." And so that, that right there, that's my sacrifice.

I need- And, and I do like the at- the attitude of the knowledge of God. Yes. You know, because John tells us in the scriptures, "This is life eternal, that they may know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom has sent." You know, it's like that is life eternal. If we don't know him and we don't have that relationship, we are not gonna be saved.

Absolutely. So, yeah. Great discussion, you two. Well, we could do this for hours. There are so many great metaphors. Turn to Hosea 12:10. I like this verse so much because it's, it's proven exactly what we've done today. In Hosea 12:10, it says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions and used similitudes by the ministry of the prophets."

That's what we did. We looked at all the metaphors, the similitudes, everything there was for Hosea and his re- for the relationship between Jesus Christ and us, and I think Hosea did a beautiful job of that. But in verse 10 where it says, "I have multiplied visions," now that's an important phrase, because in the next segment we're gonna see a verse where Joel also talks about multiplying visions and the spirit upon all flesh.

We'll do that next.

[01:10:34] Segment 6
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Okay, this is a really fun one, and I'm gonna introduce it and then I'm gonna let these two talk. So let's turn to the Book of Joel, and on that page you want to have a cross-reference there. And we're gonna put Joseph Smith History chapter 1, verse 41. This is really cool because when Moroni came to visit Joseph Smith, he quoted a couple of different scriptures, and one of the scriptures he sure enough quoted came from the Book of Joel.

So in Joseph Smith History 1 verse 41, let's just read that verse so we can see what Joseph said about this. So Joseph Smith History 1:41. And Paul, will you read this verse for us? Yes. "He also quoted the second chapter of Joel- from the 28th verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be.

And he further stated that the fullness of the Gentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of scripture and offered many explanations which cannot be mentioned here." Well, let's go then. Let's find out what it says in the second chapter of Joel versus 28 through 32. Here we go. Joel chapter 2 And 28 through 32.

We'll each take a verse. Lori, we'll start with you. We'll go Lori, Paul, then me, and then back "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream [01:12:00] dreams, your young men shall see visions." "And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit."

"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke." "The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." "And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered.

For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." Okay, now part of those verses have been fulfilled and some we're waiting to have fulfilled. Obviously, Jesus coming, the moon to blood, all of that we're waiting for. But what we know from our prophets, modern prophets and apostles is verse 28 has been fulfilled.

And so Moroni said it hadn't yet. Oh, it has. We have a day where our po- where it says, "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions." I love this quote from Elder Bednar regarding this verse. Let's read this quote from him.

And Lori, can you read this? "We often make it hard on ourselves to receive personal revelation. By that I mean the covenant promise is that as we honor our covenants, we may always have the Holy Ghost to be our constant companion, but we talk about it and we treat it as if hearing the voice of the Lord through His Spirit is the rare event.

The Spirit ought to be with us all the time, not every nanosecond, but if a person is doing his or her best, you don't have to be per- perfect, but if you and I are doing our best and we're not committing serious transgression, then we count on the Holy Ghost guiding us. We seem to believe that the Holy Ghost is dramatic and big and sudden when it's still and small and incremental over time."

I love this quote. All right, you two. Okay, tell me why you love it, Lori. Is this true? Like, prove it, you guys. It is so true. I mean, that's the way I experience it in my life, is sometimes it's just a feeling like you need to go do this, or you need to check on this person, or, you know, um, or you need to work harder at a certain thing.

Or sometimes it is more dramatic. I told, I told this to Paul that, um, I, I'm an educator. I'm a retired educator, and when I first started teaching, I taught second grade, and I absolutely loved it. I loved those children, and I would come home every day and I would talk about those children. And when we were first married, I just could not get pregnant And we were going through some fertility things and, ugh, it was terrible.

It was just terrible. And one day I was coming home from school and I had the words in my head come to me, and it was just as plain as day. It's like, "Lori, you love every one of these children in your class. [01:15:00] You could take any one of them home with you and love them as your own and be, and they would be your child.

So why don't you think about adopting?" And, um, so then it was like, "Well, of course that's what I need to do." I mean, it was just like that, that's an answer, that there are children out there, and I would see that. I would see children that need a good home, and I could be a good mother. So it's like, "Okay." The only frightening part was, you know, maybe going home and talking to your husband about it.

It's like- ... "You know, I, I think we should think about adopting." And, and, um- Wow ... and so we did. We, um, my husband was very, very open to it. And, um, at that time with the church, of course, you know, this was in the olden days, 'cause I'm old. But, um- ... we didn't go through the church system because y- I couldn't work.

I had, as soon as we started the process, adoption process, uh, which could take two or three years, I'd have to quit working. And it's like- Mm ... "I'm not gonna quit teaching. I love this." So we went through the state, and when we did all the things with the state that we were supposed to do, they were funny.

They said, "Okay. Well, we'll update you in a year." It's like, "Oh my-" Wow. You know? Then, like, two weeks later, they called me and they said, "We have this three-year-old little boy, and we think that he would just fit so well in your family." It's like, "Okay," you know? And so, um, the, we had a chance to go to, to the foster home where this boy was, um, being fostered at, where he was living.

And, um, so the next weekend we just took him home and kept him, and that was it. You know? That's how we got- Wow ... our oldest child. He was three years old, and he was a real talker. I mean, he was very, very articulate and very smart, and, um, it was a total blessing to us, you know? But it was like, that was a dramatic thing that happened- Mm-hmm

in our life, you know? That, a- and everybody that we had talked to and approached, our family members saying, "Well, we're gonna proceed with this," everybody was so open to it and so good about it, you know? And so it was, it was a really cool experience. Wow. So we do have, I think the Lord totally does pour out His spirit upon us, you know, with whatever we need.

And we adopted two children, and then we had a child, and so we are, we have three, and four of Lynn's, so I have seven children. You absolutely do. I have seven children. Well, Lori, I love your story so much because it just popped in your head as just a simple thought that so often we just dismiss. Like, "Oh, that's just my own crazy brain."

That's not really the Holy Ghost. And I love so much Doctrine and Covenants Section 11 Verse 12 that says, "Put your trust in that spirit- Yeah ... which leadeth to do good, to judge righteously, to r- to walk humbly. This is my [01:18:00] spirit." And any thought that's a thought for good is the Holy Ghost. Yeah. And so we need to be so careful that we don't just dismiss those good thoughts.

Mm. Or, "That must be my own crazy brain," 'cause look how different your life would've been. Yeah, yeah. What, what a great... And telling you something you already knew. You're a teacher. You love kids. Yeah. That seems obvious. Yeah. You could've thought that on your own. Yeah. But you recognized that, oh, that's the Holy Ghost.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Paul? Um, so I was thinking about this, and I feel like that's how it happens in my life. It's, it's, I don't have big, grandiose moments. Mm-hmm. But I was also thinking that when I look back on the little moments, they are grandiose, that I got that over time, and so I was able to appreciate that.

I was thinking about a time when... I don't have a problem making decisions, and- Hey ... I, I, I love making decisions. And my- ... my patriarchal blessing says that I'm blessed with the ability to make the right decisions and- Wow ... proper decisions, but it gives me, then it gives me direction, like you need to constantly pray and you need to stay in tune with the Lord.

And so I've, throughout my life, I will pray about things, but I honestly feel like as I'm going about and doing things, the right things, that I'll receive the inspiration that I need. So- Several years ago, I was called to be the elders quorum president. And when I was... It was right when they made the change that said, "We're, we're doing away with young men's presidents, and the, the bishopric is gonna handle that, and we're gonna increase the responsibility for the elders quorum president and the Relief Society president."

And so I'm sitting in the stake president's office, and we're talking about this, and it was... And I ha- I had been on the hi- I was on the high council at the time. And so it was so funny because the entire stake presidency was there in the interview. They were, like, so excited to extend this calling to me.

And, uh, and so they told me about the calling, and they told me, like, "One of your counselors is gonna be over family history, temple and family history, and one will be over missionary work," kinda explaining the new system. Well, the exact moment that they said, "One of your counselors will be over, over temple and family history work," the name popped into my mind of that counselor, and it was immediate, and it was actually Lori's husband.

Wow. And it was just immediate, and I knew it was right. Then for the second counselor, they told me that... I hadn't been attending my ward and my elders quorum very often because I was on the high council and had other assignments. And they told me that they had recently called someone to be in the elders quorum presidency, and they wanted me to c- to consider keeping that person, [01:21:00] that, um...

I think, I didn't know this person. Um, I think he moved into our ward while I was on the high council, and I don't think he had been very active. And, and so I s- struggled with that and... 'cause I was like Why are you telling me who my counselor should be? Like, I, I just went through this thing in my mind, and as soon as I got the calling, I had to leave.

I was traveling. And so I spent, like, several nights in a hotel alone. I had a lot of time to think about this. And as I thought about it, these subtle thoughts came to my mind where the Lord was softening my heart and leading me in the direction that he wanted me to go. And the first thought that came to my mind was, "What if this was your brother?"

Mm-hmm. And I have a brother who no longer goes to church, and, and the thought was like, well, what if this was your brother? Wouldn't you want that elders quorum president to keep and nurture and help him progress? And so that, that was the thought that I had for a day or so. And then the next day- Mm ... the thought morphed into, "He is your brother."

Wow. And th- then I just knew that was what I was supposed to do, and that was who the Lord wanted to serve as my companion at that time. And I really appreciate that the Lord was patient with me in my stubbornness of, you know, of hearing that and, and helping me. And it was a wonderful presidency, and it was a wonderful situation, and I'm so grateful for it.

And to continue this even further, after a couple of years, th- then we had COVID, and everything, you know, changed. Mm-hmm. And I needed to make a change in my presidency, and we were making a change in our ward in the boundaries, and so the stake president asked me to hold off until we got those new members.

So the very first Sunday, I knew, I knew that this was coming, and so I'd been, like, looking at the people who would be in our ward. And the very first Sunday, I was walking around, and I was shaking hands and introducing myself to people who were new. And there was a guy named Zach on the back row, and I shook his hand, and I immediately knew.

The Lord told me, "This is your c- this is your counselor, your new counselor." I, I never knew him before. I didn't know anything about him, but the Lord just told me. And I'm just so grateful for the different ways the Lord will work with me. Mm-hmm. You know, sometimes it's, "This is what you need to do."

[01:24:00] Sometimes it's putting a name in your head. But sometimes it's helping me. He leads me along to where he wants me to be, and I love that about the Spirit, and I love that about the Lord, that he'll, he'll patiently do that with me. I just have to say this to everyone listening. I didn't prompt these two at all on the stories that they shared, and I am blown away right now because we- and I'm just, I'm feeling the Spirit so strongly.

'Cause in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, we'll just talk about times we felt the Spirit." But as both of you have been talking, I look back at this verse in verse 28 where it says, "Your daughters shall prophesy." And I thought, "Lori, that is exactly what the Spirit did with you, is it gave you a thought, but it also led to the prophecy of your future family."

Um- Like, you in that moment prophesied to your husband that evening, "We need to adopt." Hm. And it worked. And then I thought of you, Paul, "And your young men shall see visions." Hm. The Lord showed you in a vision who this person was to him and to you, your brother. Like, yes, the Spirit spoke to you, but that absolutely is a perfect example of a vision, seeing this person for who he really was.

And so when we look at verse 28, absolutely the Lord has poured out his Spirit upon all flesh, and never underestimate that our sons and daughters are prophesying, our old men are dreaming dreams. Boy, there's such a great book about that that you can get from scholars at BYU. But mostly our young men are seeing visions, and the Lord does that as he's preparing for the Second Coming.

There's no coincidence that verse 28 comes before Second Coming wording. He's like, "I need this to happen before I come again. I need the Spirit to be poured out upon all flesh to do my work that I am in preparation for, 'cause I'm coming." And Jesus is coming. And those experiences are not lacking in our life.

I think from everything you've shared today, both of you, you did such a beautiful job, that if we are willing to have daily nourishment, if we're willing to eat and be filled, then we can have spiritual experiences that will prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. So- Hm ... thank you, both of you. What a w- beautiful way to end.

Wow, you two, well we're done. That's the end. All done. Yay. Hey, so- Great ... gather your thoughts and just share what is your one eternal truth that you learned or a eternal truth, kind of your takeaway from our discussion today. Okay, I, I will go. And when we were in Hosea and we read the verse about hesed, and you said that it was hour hesed for the Lord.

I have never, I don't know why, but I have never thought about, I've only thought about hesed from the Lord's perspective to us. Mm-hmm. I have never thought about it in, from my perspective. That, uh, it's something I need to have for Him. And I don't know why I, I haven't thought of that, but I'm grateful that, that, [01:27:00] um, that, that came to me, that you talked about that.

And I definitely want to focus on that and- Yeah ... be more, you know, stalwart with, with my hesed and kindness and love towards the Lord. Yeah. Wow. Very cool, Paul. Thank you. I love that. That is good. Well, Tammy, it's been a great couple weeks studying for this. And, you know, it's a, it's a great, it's always a great opportunity to really dig into the scriptures and see what is gonna touch my heart, you know, as I'm studying.

Mm-hmm. And I think that- The things about the Lord pouring out his Spirit upon us really touched my heart because I could identify with it because he has touched my heart so many times in my life. And I really know that as our attitudes and our actions reflect righteousness, that the Holy Ghost will be with us.

And it's all about our hearts, and it's about this love. It's about this hesed, you know? Mm-hmm. And I want to have that. I want to be... I don't want to disappoint the Lord, you know? I mean, it's just like- Yeah ... my husband doesn't ever disappoint me. I love him to death, and he is just, to me, he is the perfect spouse, you know?

And I don't want to disappoint him, and I don't want to disappoint my Heavenly Father. Wow. So it's like- Excellent. Great. Both of you, so good. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh, mine is, Paul, boy, I sure loved so much. I mean, okay, actually there's a lot, because I love how you're like the eating and never being filled parable.

That was so good. Um, I love how we started though, like, "Okay, I'll get back to you in 90 days." Like that, I've never thought of that before, and that is exactly how we think. So that was awesome. And Lori, I loved when you were willing to be vulnerable when I asked you about your due, a time when it had helped you in your life, and you were so willing to share that about your praying for your son, so thank you.

That, both of, both of you invited the Spirit, and it's been so strong for this whole episode. So I love you both so much. We love you. That was good. Thanks, Tammy. We love you, Tammy. All right. All right. See you, Tammy. Wow. Oh, my goodness, that was such a fun discussion. What did you learn? I'm dying to know.

Join our Facebook group or Instagram, and then share what you've learned. There's gonna be a post asking you a question. I would love to know what you've learned, or how does the Spirit speak to you? What are your thoughts about that verse in Joel? Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday, and go there anyway. It's where we have links to the references and a transcript of this whole discussion. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living.

It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today, our incredible study group participants were Lori Matson and Paul Cotter. And you can find more information about my friends at [01:30:00] ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here, and we will see you next week. And please remember, oh, especially after this week's lesson, that you really are God's favorite.