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11: “These Twelve Jesus Sent Forth” (Matthew 9-10, Mark 5, Luke 9)

Fri Mar 03 14:29:58 EST 2023
Episode 11

In a burst of eagerness to help clean up, a young girl noticed that there were two jugs of milk in the fridge, but one of them was expired. Determining that the best thing to do was consolidate, she poured the remaining expired milk into the good jug, much to her mother’s chagrin. A lesson from that story might just come into play in this week’s lesson in Matthew 9–10, Mark 5, and Luke 9 as we study Christ’s teaching about old and new wine bottles and the special mission of His chosen Apostles.


Glue-Ins (free printables for your scriptures)

Segment 1

Matthew 9:17 (New wine in old bottles)
CR: Matthew 17:21 (Jesus and the disciples fasting)
JST, Matthew 9:18-21 (Christ is the new law)

Words of the Prophets:
The most important prophet, so far as we are concerned, is the one who is living in our day and age. (Ezra Taft Benson, “Jesus Christ—Gifts and Expectations,” New Era, May 1975, 17)

Segment 2

Mark 5:22-23 (Jairus is desperate for his daughter)
Luke 8:42 (Jairus’ only daughter)
Mark 5:25-34 (Jesus healing the bleeding woman)
Matthew 9:20 (Her issue of blood)
CR: Leviticus 15:25 (Cleanliness after bleeding)
Mark 5:34 (Thy faith hath made thee whole)
CR: D&C 46:19 (The gift to be healed)
Luke 8:48 (Go in peace)

Virtue = power, or spiritual strength 

Garment - tzitzit could be the fringe on the bottom of the garment which for some was connected to religious power, even priesthood power. “The hem of his garment” refers to “an important part of an Israelite’s dress.” The hem was “a tassel at each ‘wing’ or corner of the tallith or mantle (Matt. 14:36)” (Bible Dictionary, “Hem of garment”). The tassels were bound by blue thread, symbolizing heaven (see Numbers 15:38–40). The tassel that hung over the shoulder at the back was the one that the woman touched. Her act of reaching up to touch the tassel represents a reach for the Savior’s heavenly power. The prophet Malachi prophesied that the Savior would “arise with healing in his wings'' ( Malachi 4:2). (New Testament Seminary Teacher Manual, Mark 5:24-34; 9:20-22)

Segment 3

Mark 5:35-36 (Jairus’ daughter passed away)
Mark 5:41-42 (She rises and walked)


Talitha Cumi = little lamb, soft one, ARISE! (Command form) Talitha could mean damsel, or little lamb OR it could be her first name

12 = a symbol of God’s power and authority (Hebrew)

Segment 4

Matthew 10:1 (Jesus calls the 12)
Mark 3:16-19 (The 12 apostles)
Matthew 10:5-8 (What the apostles supposed to do)
Matthew 10:32-33 (Testify of God)

Apostle = those who are sent forth (Greek)

Words of the Prophets:
Like all of my Brethren, I too come from among the ordinary people of the Church. I am the seventy-eighth man to be accepted by ordination into the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in this dispensation.

Compared to the others who have been called, I am nowhere near their equal, save it be, perhaps, in the certainty of the witness we share.

I feel compelled, on this 150th anniversary of the Church, to certify to you that I know that the day of miracles has not ceased.

I know that angels minister unto men.

I am a witness to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father; that He has a body of flesh and bone; that He knows those who are His servants here and that He is known of them.

I know that He directs this Church now, as He established it then, through a prophet of God. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. (Boyd K. Packer, “A Tribute to the Rank and File of the Church”, April 1980 General Conference)

Segment 5

Matthew 10:19-20 (It shall be given you)
CR: D&C 84:85

Segment 6

Matthew 10:37-38 (Take up the cross)
Matthew 10:39 (Lose our lives in Christ)

Cross = Shame, humiliation, extreme suffering, death (Ogden/Skinner, Verse by Verse: The New Testament, page 169)

Words of the Prophets:
We learn through the scriptures that those who wish to take their cross upon themselves love Jesus Christ in such a way that they deny themselves of all ungodliness and of every worldly lust and keep His commandments.

Our determination to cast off all that is contrary to God’s will and to sacrifice all we are asked to give and to strive to follow His teachings will help us to endure in the path of Jesus Christ’s gospel—even in the face of tribulation, the weakness of our souls, or the social pressure and worldly philosophies that oppose His teachings. (Ulisses Soares, “Take Up Our Cross”, October 2019 General Conference)

Tammy 0:00

Several years ago, my well-meaning daughter was trying to clean up. She noticed that we had two gallon jugs of milk in the fridge. One was brand new and slightly used and the other had expired. So it just made sense to her that we consolidate the two. So she poured the rest of the expired milk into the jug of good milk. Hah. Today's discussion of Matthew chapters 9-10, Mark chapter 5, and Luke chapter 9 will help us understand why this modern take on an old teaching from Christ wasn't exactly the best of ideas.

Tammy 0:32

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so please follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend, Elsie Davis in Duluth, Minnesota. Hey, lady. I hope you enjoy this episode, because you're gonna know somebody today.

Tammy 1:00

Okay, now another awesome thing about my study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends so it's always a little bit different. And today we have got Sandy Bacon. Hi, Sandy.

Sandy Bacon 1:10

Hi, Tammy.

Tammy 1:11

Best last name in the world.

Sandy Bacon 1:12

I know.

Tammy 1:12

And we have Beth Whisamore. Hi, Beth.

Beth 1:15

Hi, Tammy. How are you?

Tammy 1:18

Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you two are here. Okay, this is so fun. I don't think we've ever done this before. How do you two know each other?

Beth 1:25

We're sisters

Sandy Bacon 1:26

I was gonna say, we just met for the first time. (laughter)

Beth 1:26

48 years ago, we just met for the first time. (laughter)

Sandy Bacon 1:30

48 years. Just getting to know each other.

Tammy 1:35

Who's older? I don't think I know that.

Beth 1:37

I am.

Tammy 1:38

Sweet Beth. All right. Beth's older. Do you guys have a funny story about each other?

Sandy Bacon 1:42

I mean,

Beth 1:43


Sandy Bacon 1:45

Lots of funny stories, but, I don't know. We might have to hold on that one.

Tammy 1:50

Was it chaos like my house? Did you guys ever fight? I fought a lot.

Sandy Bacon 1:53

Oh, my gosh. Okay. So here's what I would say. We had no rules. It was like "Lord of the Flies" at our house. We were allowed to say and do almost anything we wanted. It was the 80s and we barely made it out alive.

Tammy 2:09

Oh my gosh, that is so, my sisters and I always joke it was like "Boxcar Children". People don't know what "Lord of the Flies" or "Boxcar Children" is, Google it. It's fantastic! That is perfect. And so many people from the 80s and the 70s are laughing so hard because they're like, Um-hm. That was my childhood. So oh, my gosh, you guys are great. We're gonna have so much fun today.

Tammy 2:33

Okay, well, if you want to know more about my guests and see their pictures, go check out their bios, which are in our show notes and you can find those at LDS on Monday. So I want you guys to grab your scriptures, your scripture journal, and something to mark your scriptures with, and let's dig in. Okay, you two. How about that milk story - describe for me why that's a bad idea.

Sandy Bacon 2:52

Oh, I mean, that's a bad idea on so many fronts. But I don't know if there's anything I cringe more about. Then the thought of spoiled milk and to take that spoiled milk or even if it wasn't expired yet, but just to mix the old with the new and wreck the whole thing, no good.

Tammy 3:12

Yeah, no, good. I knew you'd appreciate that story when I was writing, like yeah, She's gonna love this.

Sandy Bacon 3:16

Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Tammy 3:17

Yeah. So gross. Okay. Well, the reason why I told that story at the beginning is because there's a really cool application to it found in Scripture. Let's turn to Matthew chapter 9. So leading up to this point, here's what's happened so far. John the Baptist is in prison, and you can read about that in Matthew 4:12. He has many people who have now started to believe in him and follow him. Now John the Baptist, he was just, he observed the law to a "T" and so did his followers. But something interesting is that his followers didn't quite fully recognize that Christ was the one John the Baptist was testifying of. So the followers actually end up seeing Jesus and His disciples and they question him in chapter 9:14. So Sandy, read verse 14; here's the question they have for Jesus.

Tammy 3:17

Matt 9:14 "Then came to him,the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not.?"

Tammy 4:13

Okay. Now that's interesting, because, of course, the disciples will fast. You can even cross reference a verse right there. Matthew 17:21 talks about the disciples fasting. So they're questioning like, Why aren't you fasting? because that's what John taught us to do. Now the Savior is going to teach them a really interesting doctrine here that has to do with sort of my spilled milk analogy. We're going to look at verse 16. We're still in Matthew chapter 9; I want you to go to verse 16 and there's a little footnote (a) right there. Footnote (a) down below tells you to go to Joseph Smith Translation, Matthew 9:18-21. So you can go there in your gospel app to the Joseph Smith Translation, and turn and read what it actually says. Beth, I want you to read more of the story according to the Joseph Smith Translation.

Beth 5:00

JST Matt 9:18 "Then said the Pharisees unto him, Why will ye not receive us with our baptism, seeing we keep the whole law?

Beth 5:00

19 "But Jesus said unto them, Ye keep not the law. If ye had kept the law, ye would have received me, for I am he who gave the law.

Beth 5:13

20 "I receive not you with your baptism, because it profiteth you nothing.

Beth 5:25

21 "For when that which is new is come, the old is ready to be put away."

Tammy 5:31

Thank you. Okay. So, I love this discussion, because then the Savior gives this example. Go back into Matthew 9:17. He's basically saying we have a new law here, but you're not following it. I'm the new law. And you are stuck in these old ways, the old law. And then He gives this interesting analogy. Sandy, can you read verse 17 for us.

Sandy Bacon 5:53

Sure. Matthew 9:17 says, "Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else, the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."

Tammy 6:07

Okay, now, let me tell you a little bit about this. So what this is saying is, when you had new wine, you wouldn't put the new wine into these old - and it says bottles. But what it really means is sort of like it was, it was kind of like a belly of an animal that they use, but it was this wine skin that they would put the wine in to let it ferment. And as it fermented, the skin would stretch. And so in this analogy, and everybody knows this, you would never put new wine in an old stretched- out wine skin, because the gases would cause the wine skin that's old to explode. And then the wine would be ruined. You only put new wine in new skin, and you've got the old wine in old 'bottles'. So he's saying you would never do that.

Tammy 6:49

And everyone listening is like, that's true. That's absolutely true. He's like, That's Me. I'm the new wine. You are following the old wine. Or in my own analogy, you'd never put old milk with the new milk because it would just ruin everything, right? Like how you described it, Sandy. It's just the grossest. Can't even imagine! So this is a really great analogy where He's teaching this. And we have this in our own life today. Joseph Smith is a great example. He was new wine in a new bottle. He didn't have any of the contamination from the philosophies or dogmas of man. And then today, we have new wine again: every living prophet, every time we get a new prophet, he is new wine. I love this quote, this is by Ezra Taft Benson: "The most important prophet, so far as we are concerned, is the one who is living in our day and age." So tell me a little bit about this in your connection with new wine and a living prophet. Beth, you were shaking your head Yes. Tell me why.

Beth 7:45

I was shaking my head because I took a class at BYU back in the day when I was taking my religion classes. And there was, we took a class where we studied that talk. And our professor told us that the new prophet always had the power of TNT, which meant Today's News Today. And he was just talking about this idea that you should always be listening to the news from today. And that doesn't mean that you can't read what past prophets or what's been taught in the past. But you shouldn't value that over Today's News Today, the most recent revelation that's received, been received about the time that you live in.

Tammy 8:31

Okay, that's cool. I wrote that in my scriptures next to that verse, TNT. Today's News Today. That is exactly the message of this episode, is new wine. And we get to study so many examples of people who are willing to accept new wine and get rid of the old wine. And so I'm really looking forward to our discussion, especially in the next segment, because we're going to see our first example of someone who is willing to accept new wine. And we'll do that next.

Segment 2 8:56


Tammy 9:10

All right, so we are going to turn now to Mark chapter 5. We're gonna stay there for a little bit. So let's go to Mark chapter 5. K, I'm going to read these two verses. And as I do, what I want you both to do is when I'm finished, describe for me the intensity of this moment. I want to know what words you'd use to describe the intensity of the moment. Here we go. To set this up: so the Savior is now, in verse 20 it says He "began to publish in Decapolis" and the people were marveling at the great things He's done. Then we come into verse 22: "And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name: and when he saw him, he fell at his feet. 23: "And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live."

Tammy 9:56

I want you to cross reference quickly before you answer my question. Just keep your hand here and go to Luke chapter eight. I want you to see one more thing about this story that Mark doesn't have or Matthew, and it's verse 42. And it says, again, talking about Jairus and his daughter. "For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him." Tell me about the intensity of that moment.

Sandy Bacon 10:24

Well, I just think it's like desperation, like a father's desperation.

Sandy Bacon 10:29

That's the exact word that came to my mind. You would just be desperate. Oh, anxious to find any solution.

Tammy 10:36

Absolutely. Perfect answers. That's exactly what we wanted. Okay, so go back with me now to Mark chapter five. The Savior agrees to go with Jairus and the people......But one of the words we read in Luke and it also says here in Mark chapter 5. At the end of verse 24 there's a word that describes the situation as they're walking. Verse 24 says, "And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him." What does that word 'thronged' mean?

Sandy Bacon 11:03

I mean, it sounds to me like they're just, I mean, it sounds like you're like kind of in a tight space. You're getting kind of mobbed, almost. Like, I imagine like a subway station in the middle of, you know, or something where you're just like, there's people everywhere and you're getting bumped and

Beth 11:18

Yeah, like a rock concert is what I was thinking of. You're just crammed in right at the front of the stage.

Tammy 11:24

Totally. I think of the first concert I ever went to, there was a mosh pit. And I had never, no one ever prepared me, I don't have an older sibling. And I wore a sweater. I came home with sweater burns all over my arms. And it was, talk about being thronged; it was the worst. So you're absolutely right in your description. Okay. So the people thronged Him. So on His way with Jairus to see his daughter, then we get this story. Let's go into Mark chapter 5. And now we're gonna start at verse 25. Now, I asked my guests to come prepared to answer this question, because we are going to discuss Mark 5:25-34. And I want you to tell me this, in verse 25 it says, "And a certain woman". Underline that. Tell me everything you guys learned about this certain woman from these verses 25-34.

Sandy Bacon 12:14

Well, I think just starting off in verse 25, it says a lot. So she has an issue of blood. And if you click on the footnote, it tells you she's hemorrhaging. And it's been happening for 12 years. Yeah, it's a super long time.

Beth 12:29

And I was really interested in verse 26, where it said that she "had suffered many things of many physicians."

Sandy Bacon 12:39

I know. Sounds terrible.

Beth 12:39

So I don't know what that means. But I bet it's terrible. All these treatments that people have been trying to help her with, and that she spent all that she has, and that nothing is better, but it's only grown worse.

Sandy Bacon 12:55

I know poor thing.

Beth 12:56

I know. It's terrible.

Tammy 12:58

You feel for her, don't you?

Beth 13:00


Tammy 13:01

Awful. Okay, awesome. Anything else that stood out to you about her?

Sandy Bacon 13:06

Yeah, I mean, I wrote down a whole, a whole bunch of stuff. I thought it was really interesting that she wanted to touch the garments. And I had looked something up about that. And they were talking about the tradition of wanting to touch the tassels.

Tammy 13:23


Sandy Bacon 13:24

and that there was like some superstition in that, like, around the time. And so it was an act of faith. She believed that there would be power to be healed. But it might have been a little bit miss - like - informed.

Tammy 13:38

In fact, I'm so thankful you brought that up. And we have a whole write-up about this in our show notes, if you want to go check them out. But in this scripture right here in the story, if you want to write the name of the tassel, they're called Tzitzit. It's spelled TZITZIT. And you're absolutely right, Sandy, and I liked that you brought that up. It's interesting, because these threads that hung from the bottom of the garment, they would have been blue in color, symbolizing heaven. And this idea that whoever was wearing this had power from on high to bless, to have power to help people. Like it's just, I'm so grateful you brought that up. That's awesome.

Beth 14:16

One of the things that I noticed when I was looking at the footnotes, and it comes from, I think it comes from Matthew actually. So when I read the version of it in Matthew, in verse 20, when I clicked on the link that mentioned that she had an issue of blood, it crossed referenced me to Leviticus 15:25.

Tammy 14:41

Yes. Okay, let's put that cross reference next to verse 25 where it says "issue of blood". Underline that and then put that reference, it, again. Say it for us, Beth.

Beth 14:50

So it's Matthew 9:20. And then it cross references to Leviticus 15:25.

Tammy 15:00

Yeah, tell me about that.

Beth 15:03

So, I don't understand everything that's in this reference. But it specifically says that "all the days of the issue," meaning the issue of blood,

Sandy Bacon 15:14

which for her is 12 years, right?

Beth 15:16

right. "All of the issues of her uncleanness shall be as days of her separation."

Tammy 15:24


Beth 15:24

"She shall be unclean." So, to me, I think that means that for all of these 12 years, she's not only considered unclean, but she's not allowed to be with other people, or there's some like separation. And so I wrote in my notes, it's not just that she physically and probably emotionally feels terrible from her illness, but she's separate from her people, from friends, from the community. That sounds terrible.

Tammy 16:01

That sounds terrible. Oh, my gosh, my heart is so full. I love that you guys really did this assignment so beautifully, because that's exactly right. In fact, here's some really cool information about what that cross reference was that you gave us, Beth. So this cross reference really does in the Book of Leviticus state that when a woman is menstruating, she is deemed unclean. In fact, she's ritually unclean. It doesn't mean she's dirty or sinful. That's not it at all. It just means ritually she's unclean. So anything or anyone that she touches would be considered unclean. Her bed, her eating utensils, the food she prepared, all of it would have been unclean. Another thought is that because of this, her family members would be unclean. So there is a belief that her family left her and her husband. Like she was left completely destitute for 12 years. That's crazy to me.

Tammy 16:55

Now, the Jews still practice this today. The woman, she is unclean for the five days of her menstruation, and she will remain separate from her husband for seven days after. So that really does exist today. They still live by this law of Moses. So I am grateful you pointed out physically, emotionally and socially. Like she is just so depleted in every way.

Sandy Bacon 17:19

I actually had two more things that I wrote down about her. And one of them is taken from the account in Luke 8:47, where when Christ asks, like, Who is this basically, who's the one that touched me? And she admits that it's her. I wrote down that she was brave.

Tammy 17:45

Oh, gosh, very brave. I'm putting that next to that verse.

Sandy Bacon 17:47

Because she's in this situation where she's totally, she's untouchable. She's like an untouchable woman. She's in a crowd. She's probably not supposed to be there at all. And then He recognizes that she's there. And she is brave enough to say, 'It was me, I'm the one who did it.' And then the last thing I wrote down was back up in Mark 5:34, with the cross reference, when it says, "Thy faith hath made thee whole", I put the cross reference the Doctrine and Covenants 46:19, where it's, you know, "To some is given the gift of the Spirit to believe". And so I'm like, we know one of the gifts of the Spirit that she had, because the Savior basically tells her,

Tammy 18:40

Yes. Sandy, that's awesome. Put that right next to that "she believes." I also had this thought and it just now connected to it. So she's ritually unclean. Now go back to Mark 5:27. Because this is interesting to me in verse 27. This is what I learned. "When she had heard of Jesus". Like, who do you think she heard it from? If a woman's ritually unclean for 12 days, who's the only other person that could possibly come visit her and not be worried about being unclean?

Sandy Bacon 19:12

Right, other women.

Tammy 19:13

Another woman, right? I think this is so cool to think that it's women teaching women. How else would she have heard? Oh, my gosh, yeah, that's really kind of cool to me. What do we love about the word in verse 30? Mark 5:30. When Jesus, when she touched the bottom of His hem, Jesus immediately knowing in Himself that virtue had gone out of Him. I mean, if there's any word I love, it's that one, in Hebrew and Greek, it means strength or power. It does not mean, He didn't feel modesty leave Him and He didn't feel chastity leave Him. He felt power or strength to go out of him. So that's one of the things I love about this story. Anything else that touched you or that you liked in here?

Beth 19:58

I just loved with that reference that the power or the strength comes out of Him, that in Mark 5:29, it says, "And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague." And it reminded me of times where I've prayed for something, and you feel it in your body. You know, you feel the Spirit in your body. And, you know, maybe fear is taken away, or anger is taken away. And I just thought, what, what must that have felt like to her in that moment, 12 years, and then to touch and just-whoo-feel that strength and that power come into her, and, and heal her. Must have been incredible.

Sandy Bacon 20:50

Well, and on top of that, then if you go, Luke 8:48 at the very end He tells her, " of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace." And this woman who has been totally ostracized, totally left alone, totally abandoned And then the Savior tells her this, this is your faith. Like through your faith that this was possible. And He calls her daughter at one point in this too, it's really loving. You know, I'm sure she didn't feel like anyone's daughter.

Tammy 21:27

Is there, is, could there be a more loving word? You know, He could have, He could have said, friend; He could have said disciple. But to say, "daughter". I mean, there's this beautiful imagery of a father coming to protect or take care of her. So, great points, both of you. I am thankful for everything you guys pointed out. Because to me, she just came alive. And Beth it sounds like you absolutely know what that means. She felt in her body that something leave her. That was pretty awesome. So let's go back into our story then, because we've had this cool experience discussing this certain woman with the issue of blood. Now, let's go back to Jairus, though. Here's the Savior walking with Jairus. Jairus is thinking, we're going straight to my home, and yet the Savior takes the time to heal this woman with the issue of blood. Now, when it comes to healing us, what does this teach us about Christ?

Sandy Bacon 22:21

I think it's just the abundance of mercy in our time of need. And, you know, it's not He's busy, He's going to help someone else. But she's there and she's desperate too. And He has, you know, He always has time for us. He's always merciful in our time of need.

Beth 22:44

I think He sees us. That's what it reminds me of is, I love where in these verses the disciples say, What do You mean, who touched You? There's a million people around You. And He sees us individually.

Tammy 23:07

Yes, absolutely. Both of you. Those are good answers. Thank you. I think you're absolutely spot on. I wrote that in my Scriptures. He always has time, He sees us. And especially that idea of that throng. I mean, there's a lot of people that need His help. And as He's on His way to help whoever, He'll stop to help us. So great, great discussion you guys. That was really great. So here's what we're gonna do, then, in the next segment. What about Jairus' daughter? And we're going to continue this discussion coming up next.

Segment 3 23:35


Tammy 23:49

So I want to go back really quickly to the word you used to describe the intensity of Jairus. Because you said "just so desperate", right? Absolutely desperate. Let's go now to Mark 5:35-36 and apply that word to now what's happening. Here we go. Beth, will you please read for us Mark 5:35, 36.

Beth 24:09

5:35 "While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

Beth 24:22

36 "As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe."

Tammy 24:31

Okay, now describe for me the intensity of the situation.

Sandy Bacon 24:33

Well, I wrote down on my notes, 'panic moments,' you know, because there's nothing worse that this man can hear than that his child has died. They're like, you know, it's too late. Your child's already dead. And you'd just be at this panic moment in your life. And that's when the Savior steps in and says, Nope, stay with me. Stay with me. Keep believing. Don't give up.

Sandy Bacon 24:34

Yeah, I'm wanting to know if either one of you have an experience where you have done that, where you have, you know, "be not afraid only believe" and how it turned out?

Sandy Bacon 25:20

Yeah, I do for sure. I mean, I wrote down kind of three different moments that came to mind. But I'll just share one. I was having some medical issues and had gone to the doctor and was a couple hours away, had gone to the Mayo Clinic. And I was by myself, having these tests done,waiting for the results. And I was not expecting the results to come the way that they did at the end. And so as I was sitting in the doctor's office, and they're telling me, here's what you would need to have done, and basically explained these four surgical procedures that would need to happen to give me the best outcome with what was happening. And I was, I just wasn't expecting it. And I left the doctor's office kind of in shock, I think. And I had about a five hour drive home to Duluth, and my mind was racing, and I was in panic. I just, I was panicking over what that would mean, and would it work? and would it get better? And I couldn't get a hold of it, I couldn't get a hold of it. And I thought I was gonna have to pull the car over, and kind of have like a little moment by myself on the side of the freeway.

Sandy Bacon 26:36

And all of a sudden, in the middle of this chaos, I had the Primary song, come to my mind, just the part that says, "Sh, be still". And it was so clear, and so powerful to me. And it was like the Savior said to me, "Be ye not afraid, only believe". Like, just calm down and believe in Me. I'm right here.

Tammy 27:09

Wow. I've never heard that story, Sandy. Thank you for sharing that. That's an incredible moment to feel that "Sh, be still." Thank you. What about you, Beth?

Beth 27:20

I haven't been able to think of a specific singular moment that I've had. But what I thought of when I read this, and maybe this says a lot about who I am as a parent. But I just thought of this is motherhood for me. There are so many times over the last 23 years, where thankfully, I haven't been in a situation like this, this desperate, but where I have been just consumed with worry for one of my kids. And sometimes it's something really big and really serious. And sometimes it's something that maybe somebody else would look at and say that's really not that big of a deal. But to me, it's consuming everything that I can think about and everything I can feel.

Beth 27:30

And I have learned that every time that I really sincerely go in prayer and ask for help and ask for peace and ask for calm, that this is in one way or another the answer that I get. I usually don't get an answer "Here's the solution". I usually don't get an answer of, Well, you need to do this and then call this person. And I mean, every now and then something like that happens. But most of the time, the answer is I get, Don't be afraid, only believe. Just take this one next step; try to do this one next thing. And so I feel like it's like the mantra of motherhood for me. It's just totally to not be afraid. And just to believe.

Tammy 29:02

Totally true. Isn't that so awesome! I mean, it seems so trite when you read this story, like, don't be afraid, just believe. And when you're in that moment, he's like, but my daughter's gone. In fact, not only is she dead, look at verse 38. "He cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly." This idea that they've already even hired professional mourners, which is what they would do. And they're going to bury her because you would bury the body before the day was over. That's what happened. So they've already got the professional mourners in there preparing her funeral. It's a done deal. She's dead. And then we come into the story, verse 40. I want to show you this painting of verse 40. And Beth, will you please read verse 40 for us. And then this, this painting. It just It breaks my heart every time I see it.

Beth 29:50

Mark 5:40 "And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying."

Tammy 30:06

There's that painting. I mean it describes you two perfect. I mean, especially a mother and her child. The worry, and look at her holding her hand right there. Her little lifeless hand, it makes, it makes me want to cry every time I see it. So you can, that picture, the artist beautifully depicted the intensity of that moment. And here's the Savior saying, Don't be afraid, only believe. And then we get verse 41. You guys, this might be my new favorite verse of scripture right now, because I just learned about it in Hebrew and I cannot wait to tell you what it means. I'm so excited. Okay, verse 41, in Mark chapter 5. It says,

Tammy 30:42

5:41 "And he took the damsel by the hand and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which, is being interpreted, Damsel, I say into thee, arise."

Tammy 30:52

Okay, let me just fix a couple things right here. So we have Talitha, which in Hebrew means 'little maid' or 'little lamb'.

Sandy Bacon 31:25

Oh, how cute.

Tammy 31:01

It could also be her first name. Like, your name people's stuff, and it means things, right? So He could be saying literally her name, Talitha. And then the word cumi is the command form of the word 'arise'. So it doesn't even say, "I say unto thee, arise." He walks in, takes her by the hand and says, "Talitha, arise." And she does; verse 42: "....straightway the damnsel arose, and walked."

Tammy 31:28

And the thing I love about verse 41, is Jairus never says his daughter's name. He knows our name. He knew Sandy on the side of the road, driving home from Mayo Clinic, right? He knew, He knows Beth, when she's crying about her child, like He knows. And we know that, we talked about that. He knew Joseph's name in the grove. But to make it this personal? He really does know our names. I think He knew the name of the woman with the issue of blood, even though it didn't have it in print. He would have known her name; He knew what she needed and the help that she needed. He freely gave it. And I think that is the beauty in all of this. And then we go to verse 42. It tells us how old she was: 12 years. And that, that number 12 in Hebrew is super significant. That's our word for the week. The woman had the issue of blood for 12 years. The sweet girl is 12 years old. The number 12 in Hebrew is "a symbol of God's power and authority."

Sandy Bacon 32:27

Oh, that's fantastic.

Tammy 32:29

Ahhh, don't you love that? Oh, I love this story. So that is the best part of these two people. This is a story of people willing to accept new wine, getting rid of whatever existed at the time. And they're just like, Bring it on. Let's do this. I heard He could help, I'm going to trust that He does. And then He did. So, any thoughts you guys have, anything you want to like add? Because that's the end of the segment.

Sandy Bacon 32:54

No, I think that's, I think that's perfect.

Beth 32:56

The only thing that I thought as you said that, Tammy, was that both that woman would, both that woman and that young girl would become walking symbols of God's power. Right? Everyone who knew them, everyone in their community would see them and say, There literally is God's power. We can see it as they walk through the community. Incredible.

Tammy 33:28

Yes. Absolutely. Great connection to 12 and the miracles. Oh my gosh, I appreciate that. So good. Okay, well, both of these stories, then we have this awesome example. Like we said, new wine in new bottles. So in the next segment, we're going to discuss 12 other people that also were willing to accept new wine in new bottles and what they were going to experience.

Segment 4 33:50


Tammy 34:04

You're in for a real treat. We're going to sing. My guests don't even know that I was going to ask them to do this. But it's so fun, I promise. It will, it will not be painful. Okay, here's what we're going to do. Turn with me to Matthew 10:1. We're going to start there and then we're going to come back to Mark. So go to Matthew 10:1. Here's where we are in the storyline. Okay, we have the miracles happen, then 10:1. Sandy, will you please read that for us.

Sandy Bacon 34:28

Sure. It says, Matt 10:1 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."

Tammy 34:41

Perfect. okay, He called 12 disciples. Now if you'll look down, look in verses 2, 3, 4, and I want you to do is take a highlighter and highlight the names really fast. Highlight 12 names that you see of the men who were His 12 disciples there. So do that real quick, and when you're done, turn back to Mark. We're gonna go to Mark chapter 3, because for this song we need Mark chapter 3.

Sandy Bacon 35:06

Oh boy.

Tammy 35:07

Okay. So you have the 12 disciples there in Matthew 10:1. Now when I was teaching seminary, I wanted to memorize the 12 Apostles in order and I wanted my students to memorize it, too. So I wrote a song, The 12 Apostles names in order, and I'm going to sing it for you, and then you're going to sing it with me! We're using the order of names that's found in Mark 3:16-19. Okay, so I'm going to go through these with you real quick so you can mark them. So in verse 16, we have Peter, in verse 17 we have James. In verse 17 we have John. Then in verse 18, we have Andrew, Phillip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Thaddeus and Simon. Turn the page and in verse 19 we have Judas Iscariot. Okay, so that's the order we're gonna use to the song now. I put it to the tune of "Popcorn Popping". You're gonna love this, Sandy. I can't even wait for you to teach your students this in Seminary. This is how I taught it to my seminary students: I sang it for 'em and then they sang it with me. So we're going to do that this time. Here we go. Oh my gosh, this song, It's a classic.

Sandy Bacon 36:15

a Tammy classic.

Tammy 36:17

It's a Tammy classic. Okay, here we go. (sings to "Popcorn Popping") "I looked out the window and what did I see? 12 apostles staring back at me. First came Peter, then James and John. Andrew, Philip and the song goes on. Bartholomew was 6 we know, with Matthew and Thomas and James it goes. Thaddeus at 10, Simon close behind, and Judas Iscariot was not too kind." (laughter) Thank you, I'll be here all night. Don't forget to tip your waitress. Okay, you guys, I want you to sing it with me. Here we go. You ready?

Sandy Bacon 36:53

We're ready.

Beth 36:54

Oh, our voices are much lower than yours. I'm just warning you.

Tammy 36:58

Okay. All right. We'll bring it down an octave. (laughter) "I looked out the window

ALL 37:07

Sing: "I looked out the window and what did I see? 12 Apostles staring back at me. First came Peter, then James, then John. Andrew, Phillip, and the song goes on. Bartholomew was 6 we know. With Matthew and Thomas and James it goes. Thaddeus at 10, Simon close behind, and Judas Iscariot was not too kind."

Tammy 37:39

Okay, you guys are such good sports, you're such good sports! Okay, because we're gonna go into Matthew chapter 10. And Mark chapter 3, and Luke chapter 9 where the Savior instructs and empowers the 12 apostles. So let's first go to Matthew 10:2, we're going back to Matthew. All right. Matthew 10:1, Sandy read that. He gave the apostles power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, to heal all manner of sicknesses and all manner of diseases. What I want us to do is then go to verse 2, and it says, "Now the names of the 12 apostles". Circle the word 'apostle,' we're going to find what it means in Greek. So the word 'apostle' in Greek means 'those who are sent forth'. That's the description of apostle: 'those who are sent forth'. Now, I asked you guys to do this ahead of time so I'm curious to know. In verses 6-8, there are action words that we can underline that describe what the Savior asked the apostles to do now. He has sent them forth to do specific things, so tell me, what words did you guys underline? What are the action words of what they're supposed to do?

Sandy Bacon 38:50

In 6 He says, go.

Tammy 38:53

Ummm, very good.

Sandy Bacon 38:54

Tells them go, and tells them where to go.

Tammy 38:56

Yeah. In fact, only to the sheep, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. What did you mark, Beth, in verse 7?

Beth 39:04

In 7: go, preach.

Tammy 39:07


Tammy 39:08

And then verse 8, Sandy,

Sandy Bacon 39:10

In verse 8 it says, heal, cleanse, raise, cast out, and give.

Tammy 39:18

Oh, I didn't even see 'give'. Good job. Freely give, even. Ohhh.

Beth 39:24

Give was actually my favorite word because I thought so much the time when I think about preaching the gospel, I think about teaching or I don't know. But I don't think about just giving. And I love this idea of preaching the gospel is like, I'm going to give you hope, or I'm going to give you light, or I'm going to give you answers to questions you might have. So I love that His instruction was just go freely give, give the goodness that I have for you to give.

Tammy 39:57

Oh, that's so great. I've highlighted that in there. Oh, that's so good. Now next to those verses put '32 and 33'. Here's what they are to do with all of this, the whole point and purpose of this. And we're going to go to verses 32 and 33. Beth, will you read those verses for us.

Beth 40:14

Matthew 10:32, 33. "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Beth 40:25

33 "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Tammy 40:32

Thank you. The whole purpose of all of this is for them to confess the Father's name, to preach, to give the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, I really appreciated this quote. It's by Elder Boyd K. Packer. And he shared this on April 19, at General Conference about this idea of testifying and confessing of Christ and of God. So I want us to read this quote. Sandy, can you read this for us, please.

Sandy Bacon 40:55

Sure. It says, "Like all of my brethren, I too come from among the ordinary people of the church. I am the 78th man to be accepted by ordination into the Quorum of the 12 Apostles in this dispensation. Compared to the others who have been called, I am nowhere near their equal, save it be perhaps in the certainty of the witness we share. I feel compelled on this 150th anniversary of the church, to certify to you that I know that the day of miracles has not ceased. I know that angels minister unto men. I am a witness to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the only Begotten of the Father. That He has a body of flesh and bone, that He knows those who are His servants here, and that He is known of them. I know that He directs this church now as He established it then through a prophet of God. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

Tammy 41:53

I will Amen that. Back at that quote and as we read that, tell me what stands out to you as someone who has been called to go forth.

Sandy Bacon 42:03

I mean, the first thing that stands out to me, honestly, is his humility. I mean, he is giving all power, all glory to the Savior. It's not about him. He's like, Listen, I'm, I'm just a man who's been called to do this. And I don't even know that I'm equal to the other men that have been called. But here's what I do know. And then he goes into being a witness of the Savior.

Tammy 42:32

Yeah, I agree. I was the same way. He's like, I'm not even near their equal. I'm just a normal person with this amazing power. Yeah.

Beth 42:45

Yeah, I think I was struck by the reality of the priesthood and of his calling and his ordination. You know, this idea of "I'm the 78th man in this dispensation to be called." Just to think of that restoration of the priesthood and this power going forth out into the world, true apostles of Jesus Christ on earth, again, just like these apostles that we're studying about in Matthew and Mark. It's amazing to think about,

Tammy 43:25

Well, and I appreciated in Matthew chapter 10, the idea of them going, healing, cleansing, raising, freely giving. And how we have apostles on the earth today that have the ability to do the same thing, who are just men, right?, ordinary people of the church. Do you see a connection to our apostles today?

Sandy Bacon 43:48

Yeah, of course. I mean, we have, we have the apostles today that are totally willing to also freely give. They give all of their time, all of their talents, all of their energy, fully living the law of consecration for the body of the church. It's beautiful.

Beth 44:04

When you think about their professions, their careers, what they walk away from, and it's incredible. It's an incredible example of faith and devotion.

Tammy 44:17

I would absolutely agree perfectly. And that word, it's never going to be the same: 'freely give'. I think that's a great way to describe our apostles today, our living apostles. So thank you, all three of you, and thanks for singing. You guys were great sports, or listening to me sing. That was super fun. Okay. So I want us to go back to the word 'apostle', which means 'called to go forth'. Because my question is, I want you to think about this for our next segment. Could this word be applied to even the most ordinary of us? And we're going to discuss that in the next segment.

Segment 5 44:47


Tammy 45:02

Okay, you two. So, I asked a question at the end of that segment, I'm going to ask it right now. What do you think? Can we be "apostles" without being called to the apostleship? Can we be sent to go forth?

Sandy Bacon 45:14

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're asked to go forth on missions all the time. And then I think we're asked to go forth in our callings.

Tammy 45:26

Yeah. Do you have a calling you've had to go forth in where you needed power and help and you had to freely give?

Sandy Bacon 45:31

Uh, yes. When I was thinking about this, the calling that came to my mind the most was times while being a Relief Society President when I had to go help people who I literally had never met before. And going into people's lives when they're having a tragedy, something really overwhelming is happening. And you're sent in to give; you're sent in to try to help, to try to relieve. And, and as a representative of the ward, and just walking in and not really understanding how you are going to help. But just knowing that's your role, and you're supposed to go in. So I think about going into people's homes. And I, and I also recall the time where a woman had passed away that I had never met, and her family wasn't there. And I was asked to go and help dress her in her temple clothing for her, for her funeral. And it was one of those moments where I felt like I am being sent forth to do a service that needs to be done. And I, you know, it was a, those are overwhelming times, humbling times. But you can really feel the spirit and you can tell it's not me doing it, it's that I've, I'm being asked to do it and I'm being given the help to be able to do it.

Tammy 47:14

That's a great example. What a powerful moment that must have been to dress her and not even know her. Did you feel like you knew her when you were done?

Sandy Bacon 47:22

Well, you know, I felt like it was, I didn't know what to expect in the circumstance. I've never, I'd never done it before and I have never done it since, it's the only time I've ever done it. And it felt like service. That is what it felt like to me. And I just didn't know what I would feel. But it just was, it felt like a final act of loving service. And so more than feeling like I knew her, I felt like I loved her.

Tammy 47:58

Oh, yeah. Thank you, Sandy. I like that story. What about you, Beth? Do you have a time where you felt you were sent forth?

Beth 48:08

So the thought that came to my mind originally was my mission, you know, just the experience of literally feeling sent forth, wearing the name tag, of feeling like a representative of Jesus Christ. I think that's probably the time in my life where I've most felt like I was sent forth with kind of this mantle. But it was interesting when Sandy was talking, what I thought of was being a ministering sister. All the times, over the years where you go, when you knock on someone's door, that you don't really know. And you just try to make a connection and serve them and testify of Jesus Christ. And sometimes those are really easy connections. And sometimes you are sent forth and you'll spend months and months and months, maybe even years just trying to make a connection, but you're doing it hopefully out of the desire to do exactly what the apostles did: just be a messenger of Jesus Christ, just bring someone the light and the joy of the Gospel.

Beth 49:25

And I can think about ministering sisters that I have had for myself that certainly were sent forth. People who've come into my home, who said things to me in hard days and hard times. And I really needed it. And it's maybe a calling that we don't or a responsibility that we don't celebrate as here, you are called to go forth. But It is something we all are called to do on a regular basis.

Tammy 49:58

Oh absolutely. Okay, well, then how cool is this because both of you described experiences where you didn't know the people, and you didn't have any experience with them. And here you are just called to go forth. And look at the promise we get in Matthew 10:19, 20. This is so powerful. And I'm just curious if either one of you've had this experience then. So let's go to Matthew 10:19-20. And Sandy, will you read these for us.

Sandy Bacon 50:23

Sure, it says, "But when they deliver you up, take no thought on how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak.

Sandy Bacon 50:33

20 "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. "

Tammy 50:39

And let's cross reference that to Doctrine and Covenants 84:85. And when you get there, Beth, will you read that for us, please.

Beth 50:48

"Neither take you thought beforehand what you shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man."

Tammy 51:04

Thank you. Do either of you have an experience where you were given words that weren't your own?

Sandy Bacon 51:10


Tammy 51:11

Hit it, Sandy. I love a Sandy story.

Sandy Bacon 51:14

Honestly, it is the most, the most powerful spiritual experience I've ever had in my life.

Tammy 51:22


Sandy Bacon 51:22

Yes. Yes. And, you know Greg, my husband, is a convert to the church, you know that. And he took the discussions for two and a half years before he joined the church. And I was super careful about what I said, and how I said it. I didn't want to mess anything up. I didn't want it to become like, the center of our marriage was whether or not he was joining the church.

Tammy 51:51

How long had you been married?

Sandy Bacon 51:53

We had been married for about a year when he started taking the discussions. And so I had spent two and a half years being super careful about what I said. And it was our anniversary and we were going to dinner. And we were certainly not going to discuss that at dinner, we were just going to have a nice anniversary dinner. And we started having this conversation. And it is the only time in my life where - the only way I can describe it is - our spirits were talking to each other. There was no miscommunication. No time in the whole conversation where one of us had to explain what we were saying, or anything. It was just like this perfect communication.

Sandy Bacon 52:43

And then, at the end of this conversation, I open my mouth and I am not kidding you, the words were like spilling out of my mouth. And it's like I was trying to stop them, and could not stop the words from coming out of my mouth. And what I said to Greg was, "I think you know the church is true, you're just too afraid of what that would mean." And it's like as I was saying it - two and a half years of holding anything back - I never even thought those words like in that way. And it was just silent.

Sandy Bacon 53:22

He was silent for like 30 seconds, which is a really long time. And, and then he looked up at me, and he said, "You're right." And then as soon as he said it, it's like my mouth opened up. And I'm just like trying to, trying to keep the words in. And I said, "Then will you set a baptism date?" And he said, Yes. And set a date. And then it's like, we were almost out of this like bubble. But it was just this moment, where I'm 100% sure those were not my words. I spent two and a half years saying my words and being very careful. Those were not my words.

Tammy 54:06

Those were not your words. I felt that

Sandy Bacon 54:15

those were not my words.

Tammy 54:08

when you said that, Sandy. I believe that. Wow. Because if anyone knows Sandy, she says what she thinks.

Sandy Bacon 54:17

I do.

Tammy 54:18

And the fact that you were like, two and a half years you'd never said that or thought it. That's amazing. Wow, Sandy. I liked that, goll, that's a good story. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That was personal. What about you, Beth, do you have one?

Beth 54:35

So I feel like I keep going back to stories of motherhood. But it's just such a huge part of who I am and how I see myself. You know, I work full time. I've always worked full time. But I'm also a mother. I have five children and two of my children, I can think of specific conversations that I had with them that I truly didn't know what to say in the moment, and you're just praying with your whole heart. And you're, inside your mind, please help me know what to say, please let me know what to say, please let me know how to manage this conversation. And times where my kids are asking really hard, complicated questions that I don't have the full answers to, but that I feel like what they're really asking for, is they're asking, Do you know? Um, are you sure? Are you sure that this is true? Are you sure the Gospel is true? Are you sure Jesus Christ is real?

Beth 55:50

And I can remember a specific experience with one of my kids where I was talking to her and I had this moment that I remembered for my mission. And it was when I was teaching a lesson on my mission and I did not want to say that the Church of Jesus Christ was the true and living church. That was what was written in the discussions at that point and we at that point, on my mission, you gave the discussions verbatim. And I didn't want to say it, because I thought that the person that I would say it to would be really offended. She was a devout Catholic and I thought that if I said that to her, it would hurt her so much to have said it.

Beth 56:42

And I remember that as I said those words to her, that I reached up and I touched my name tag. And I just had this feeling come through my whole body. 'Oh, what I'm saying is really true. It's true.' And that wasn't a story I would have ever thought of sharing with my child in the discussion that we were having. But it was the story that came to my mind. And it was short, it was quick, but it was this powerful way to say, "Oh, I know, I'm positive. And this is how I know." And if when that happens, it just feels like a gift. It just feels like you're able to have exactly what the Lord wants you to have in that moment.

Tammy 57:40

Absolutely. Well, you know as both of you were sharing your stories, you can't help but feel the Spirit. Like this incredible feeling of what you're saying is true. You were given the words to say. And I think that's amazing. And especially that prayer. How many of us have said, Oh, Heavenly Father, help me know what to say. When you said that, Beth, I was like, How many times have I prayed that prayer? Oh, please let me know what to say. And how awesome that those of us who are sent forth, which is all of us, we all have been given power through our covenants. First of all, by just being baptized we have power. And I think that's important for us to know. Priesthood power, and that is taught by Elder Oaks and President Nelson. It's not being ordained to the priesthood, but women and men have priesthood power given to them through their covenants. And then through our temple experience and those covenants, that all of that allows for us to be able to speak and "it will be given to us in the moment that we need it."

Tammy 58:39

And you both have just beautifully born witness of that truth. So thank you so much. Those are great stories. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Okay, so we're just gonna move on then. And in the next segment, we are going to learn about probably one of the biggest 'new wine' teachings that quite frankly, maybe many of us have been using old bags with. We'll do that next.

Segment 6 59:00


Tammy 59:15

We are still in Matthew chapter 10. And we're gonna go to verse 37 and 38, these are the verses. Okay, here we go. And it's packed with a lot. So we're going to start and Beth, will you please read for us in Matthew 10:37, 38.

Beth 59:32

Matthew 10:37 and 38 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Beth 59:45

38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

Tammy 59:51

Now that's some new wine for a lot of people. That is heavy stuff, isn't it? So before we discuss it, I do just want us to mark one word. Let's mark the word 'cross' in verse 38. "He that taketh not his cross", and we're going to write to the outside what that word means. It is defined as 'shame, humiliation, extreme suffering, or death.' So he that is not willing to take up his cross, whatever it is you struggle with, or your shame, your humiliation. In my mind I'm thinking of just the Savior saying, Pull up your big-girl pants, like just let's just do this. All right, follow Me. This is what it's about. Tell me your thoughts. Like why is this such difficult new wine for people to take?

Beth 1:00:39

I think it's hard new wine because it's so much more personal than follow these set rules. In order to really do that, to really take up the cross, you have to be willing to search inside, really deeply. And maybe give away things that are super personal that aren't explained in every single law and regulation that's been given. You have to give away things that are deep in your heart that nobody else knows you carry around.

Sandy Bacon 1:01:12

Oh, I like the way you just

Sandy Bacon 1:01:15

I like that, too.

Tammy 1:01:15

explained that cross. Oh, that is a little scary. That's a little deep there. Scary, Beth, but you're totally right. We're going to read a quote from Elder Suarez, and you didn't even know we had this quote about taking up your cross. And he, this is in his talk called "Take Up Your Cross", from the October 2019 General Conference.

Sandy Bacon 1:01:35

"We learn through the scriptures that those who wish to take their cross upon themselves love Jesus Christ in such a way that they deny themselves of all ungodliness and of every worldly lust and keep His commandments. Our determination to cast off all that is contrary to God's will and to sacrifice all we are asked to give and to strive to follow His teachings will help us to endure in the path of Jesus Christ's gospel - even in the face of tribulation, the weakness of our souls, or the social pressure and worldly philosophies that oppose His teachings."

Tammy 1:02:13

Now there's some new wine. Hoh. Now let's look at Matthew 10:39, and I'll read this one. "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Now, there's a footnote down below. And I liked this footnote for 39a. It says, "He who seeketh to save his life", isn't that interesting how he adds that. "He who seeketh to save his own life shall lose it. And he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Tammy 1:02:44

So this whole idea, and you're right, Beth. Like, it is. You go to a scary place, a deep place that no one kn,ows to truly get rid of it so that you can find Jesus Christ. Isn't that so, like in the imagery in my mind - I'm a very visual person - and I'm thinking of how, how dark would I, how dark will I have to go? And am I willing to go to find Christ? Seems to be the overall goal of finding Him, right? What advice would you give to your kids if they asked, How do I find Christ?

Beth 1:03:18

I've been thinking a lot about this since President Nelson's talk from Conference last year in October. He had that talk "Overcome the World and Find Rest". That talk, for me every now and then, you have a talk at conference where you just think, Oh, this is, this is my talk. Like, I am hearing it and I know I was one of probably a million people saying, Oh, this is my talk. But it felt like my talk and I, I really struggle to be peaceful, you know. I am not a naturally very peaceful person. I'm a type A personality. I work hard. I plan hard. I think hard. I stress hard. That's, that's kind of the space that I live in most of the time. But I don't feel the Savior's love when I'm in that space as much as I can feel it when I can get peaceful and get quiet.

Beth 1:04:21

And so the whole idea that President Nelson talked about of, there is this path to rest and to peace and to light through the Savior. And it is through your covenants, is through making covenants and trusting in the promises that are in those covenants. And I love in that talk where he, there's a part in the talk where he, he kind of gives specific things that he thinks that you should do. He talks about let God know through your prayers and your actions that you're serious about overcoming the world. Ask Him to enlighten your mind and send the help you need. Each day record the thoughts that come as you pray and follow through diligently. To me that's like this recipe for figuring out what it is that you need to change, or need to let go of, or potentially need to embrace in order to really feel that peace and joy.

Beth 1:05:29

And that is what I would tell my kids. I would say, You make a decision to let Heavenly Father know you are serious about wanting to take up this cross. And then you let Him know you're serious in your prayers, and you let Him know you're serious in your actions. And every day when you pray, you reiterate that you're serious. And then you write down the things that you hear that you're supposed to do and then you do them. And it's like step by step. It's just taking up that cross, letting go of certain things, embracing certain things. But He wants us to be happy. He wants us to have joy. And taking up His cross is part of that joy. It's so like contradictory to the way we think in the world, right? It's that whole losing your life, you find it. But it's carry this cross, and you'll find rest and peace and comfort. And I just love it.

Tammy 1:06:33

I've never connected that idea, the idea of carrying a cross will give you rest. It's counter-intuitive, isn't it? Like, wow! I wrote next to my, that verse of scripture, "Am I serious? And have I let the Lord know?" Thank you. Thanks for teaching us that. How have you found Him, Sandy?

Sandy Bacon 1:06:53

Well, I was just thinking when Beth was talking, about those decisions that you make every day. And, you know, sometimes when you read that scripture, you can think, Oh, you've got to lose your life, you're going to have this like a Abinadi moment, or something where you're going to have to stand up and have this, like, I will bear the cross moment. But it's, it's likely not like that for almost any of us. And it's, it is going to come down to a daily decision of, Am I willing to keep the Commandments today? Am I willing to give up my ungodliness today, you know? Am I willing to give up these worldly lusts today? What if it's a really bad day? What if I feel weak? What if I feel like someone's opposing me? Will I still do it today? It's like, that's the question. Just will I do it every day? Will I pick up this cross of trying to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and will I carry it with me? Will I, will I obey and hold true to the covenants that I renew when I take the sacrament. Will I stand as a witness of God? Will I try to have His Spirit be with me at all times, you know?

Sandy Bacon 1:08:17

And that's really what it is. It's just that daily, that daily decision to lose ourselves, the bad part of ourselves, and be willing to keep trying through the Atonement and through Him. The Atonement of Jesus Christ, what happens on the cross, will I pick it up? Will I use the Atonement of Jesus Christ to try to lose the bad parts of myself? That's the real question. That's, that's what it feels like to me. Will I pick up the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the cross, and follow Him?

Tammy 1:08:54

I'm putting that next to this: "Will I pick it up?" Because it's heavy. And it's a lot of work. I just, I've never noticed that. You have to take it. Wow, you guys. That's a great discussion. Thank you. Holy cow. That was so awesome. Oh, wow. So good, so good. Okay, so that's it. So just take a minute, look back through all of your notes, everything we discussed. Is there anything that stood out to you, any aha moment? Anything you want to take away from our discussion today? Because there was a lot. I mean, I know you both want to say it's the "Popcorn Popping 12 Apostles" song.

Sandy Bacon 1:09:39

Oh, 100%.I'm gonna, I'm gonna teach that to my grandkids someday. I'm gonna, I'm gonna record it. You should watch out because I'm gonna make my millions.

Tammy 1:09:49

Yeah, absolutely. Well, now listen, when I did that, "Judas Iscariot is not too kind." I'm not gonna lie. I laughed. I thought I was the funniest person I've ever met in my life. I'm like, Now that's , that is classic, that is good stuff. So when you have it, just kind of share it. And it's like a two sentence, little ditty if you've got it.

Sandy Bacon 1:10:07

I think, I think I still have to go back to the woman with the issue of blood and just how ostracized ostracised she was. What a terrible situation she had been in for that 12 years, and just the bravery and the faith and the hope that she had to just just to reach out to the Savior. And then how loving and kind He was in that moment as He calls her "daughter" and tells her that she's healed. And it just gives me hope, for myself, and in my own situations that aren't that big, but where you just still feel like you just really need that help. That, that He is there, and He will stop when He's busy doing other things and say, Sandy, daughter. I'm right here. I just love that. I love the thought of that.

Tammy 1:10:08

Yeah. Excellent takeaway. Thank you.

Beth 1:10:11

In some ways, I feel like my takeaway is similar but it's about the story of the, of Jairus' daughter. I love what you taught in Mark 5:41. I love the idea of where it says, "And he took the damsel by the hand and said unto her," and I like the words you used, l'ittle lamb arise.' Like, it's just so loving, and so personal. And so real to the way that I've felt some times in the worst moments, where you just feel like it's, 'I've got you little lamb. Stand up, you can keep going, keep moving forward.' And I just want to remember that, I want to remember that, that kind of love and compassion and and also the direction of what to do next. Like, this is it little lamb. Get up, go do what you need to do.

Sandy Bacon 1:12:21

Get up, keep going,

Tammy 1:12:22

Isn't that great! I know. I just, I just now realized that: get up. And then the next thing it says, "And she walked."

Tammy 1:12:29

There she goes.

Tammy 1:12:30

Like she like she would, like a 12-year old would: 'I got stuff to do, I got friends to see, see ya later,' you know? Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Mine was for sure when you both shared your stories about "given the words in the very moment that you needed them." That, I've known that's true, I've experienced it. But then sometimes you're like, was that real? Like, I need to be reminded of things like that. And so when you both shared your stories, the Spirit was like, It's real. It really does work. And I have prayed so many times, Give me the words. So okay, well, this is it. I love you both. We're done.

Beth 1:13:05

Thank you, Tam.

Sandy Bacon 1:13:06

Thank you so much, Tammy. It was such a good opportunity. Thank you.

Tammy 1:13:08

Wow, that was a great discussion. Oh my gosh, I loved that. Okay, well, listen to me. If you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. Just join, sign up. You don't have to look at anything else. Just check in with us occasionally and kind of share what you learned or, every Saturday we do a post that has a question related to this whole episode. And so comment on the question and share some of your answers and your thoughts and your ideas about what we've discussed. You can get to our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode, which is found at LDS on Monday. And if you go there, we also have the links to all the references we used as well as a complete transcript of this whole discussion and a really cool glue-in that you're totally gonna want for this episode. Just gonna tease it a little bit - it might be the song.

Tammy 1:13:56

All right. The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our so fabulous study participants were Beth Whisamore and Sandy Bacon. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham and is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

Tammy 1:14:23

And please remember, my little Talitha, that you are God's favorite.

Tammy 1:14:29

How are your singing voices?

Sandy Bacon 1:14:30


Tammy 1:14:33

That might work. If it doesn't, we'll scrap it. (laughter)

Sandy Bacon 1:14:35

That was pretty bad.

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