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20: “Rebel Not Ye against the Lord, Neither Fear” (Numbers 11–14; 20–24)

Fri May 06 16:57:36 EDT 2022
Episode 20

How do you know if you can trust someone? Whether you feel an instant connection or it's earned over time, the first leap to really trusting someone can be a little scary. In this week’s discussion of Numbers 11–14 and 20–24, we’ll see how the children of Israel made the leap several times not just with each other, but with the Lord as they were asked again and again to trust in Him.

Glue In: The Symbolic Meaning of Hebrew Numbers

Segment 1:

About the Book of Numbers:

“Moses is the author of Numbers. He was called by the Lord to lead the children of Israel out of bondage in Egypt, through the wilderness, and to the promised land of Canaan. Moses witnessed most of the events recorded in the book of Numbers. He may have relied on other witnesses, written sources, or revelation for information concerning events he did not see, such as the interactions between Baalam and Balak (see Numbers 22–24). In addition, subsequent editors and scribes may have altered the text of this book, as illustrated by the parenthetical observation that “Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth” (Numbers 12:3; see also Moses 1:41).

“The book of Numbers provides census information that helps us understand the size of the population of Israel at the beginning and near the end of their wanderings in the wilderness. It also outlines the organization of the camp of Israel, discusses the responsibilities of the Levites, and explains the purposes and conditions of the Nazarite vow.

“In addition, this book records many incidents in which the children of Israel rebelled against the Lord and Moses and brought adverse consequences upon themselves (see Numbers 12:1–2; 13:26–14:4; 14:40–45; 16:1–3, 31–35, 41; 20:1–5; 21:4–5; 25:1–3). Besides illustrating the effects of divine justice, the book testifies of Jehovah’s merciful and long-suffering nature. For example, in commanding Moses to raise a brass serpent upon a pole, the Lord prepared a way for His people to overcome the effects of their rebellion (see Numbers 21:4–8). This experience became an important means of teaching the Israelites about the redemptive mission and Atonement” (Old Testament Seminary and Teacher Manual, “Introduction to the Book of Numbers,”

Book of Numbers Outline:

1–9: Israel at Mount Sinai

10–21: Israel’s 38-Year Journey to Moab

22–36: Israel’s Camp at Moab

(See Old Testament Seminary and Teacher Manual, “Introduction to the Book of Numbers,”


Numbers 1:3


Ba Midbar = in the wilderness

Segment 2:

No references

Segment 3:


Proverbs 3:5–6

Numbers 11:1, 4–8, 11, 14, 16–17, 20, 31, 33

Lamentations 3:39

1 Nephi 5:2


Complain = To show sadness or groan

Murmurer = Grumble


“Let’s first discuss the warning. The visual image gives us much to ponder. The warning comes in the words “lean not”—“lean not unto thine own understanding.” In English the word lean has a connotation of physically listing or moving to one side. When we physically lean toward one side or another, we move off center, we are out of balance, and we tip. When we spiritually lean to our own understanding, we lean away from our Savior. If we lean, we are not centered; we are not balanced; we are not focused on Christ” (Sister Bonnie H. Cordon, “Trust in the Lord and Lean Not,” April 2017 general conference).

“Amid the suffering in Winter Quarters, Brigham received word that a mob of about a thousand men had attacked the small community of Saints still in Nauvoo. About two hundred Saints fought back, but they were defeated in battle after a few days. City leaders negotiated for a peaceful evacuation of the Saints, many of whom were poor and sick. But as the Saints left the city, the mob harassed them and ransacked their homes and wagons. A mob seized the temple, desecrated its interior, and mocked the Saints as they fled to camps on the other side of the river.28

“When Brigham learned about the desperation of the refugees, he dispatched a letter to Church leaders, reminding them of the covenant they had made in Nauvoo to help the poor and assist every Saint who wanted to come west.

“‘The poor brethren and sisters, widows and orphans, sick and destitute, are now lying on the west bank of the Mississippi,’ he declared. ‘Now is the time for labor. Let the fire of the covenant, which you made in the house of the Lord, burn in your hearts, like flame unquenchable.’29

“Though they had sent twenty relief wagons to Nauvoo two weeks earlier and had little food and few supplies to spare, the Saints at Winter Quarters and neighboring settlements sent additional wagons, ox teams, food, and other supplies back to Nauvoo. Newel Whitney, the presiding bishop of the Church, also purchased flour for the impoverished Saints.30

“When relief parties found the refugees, many of the Saints there were feverish, ill-equipped for cold weather, and desperately hungry. On October 9, as they prepared to make the journey to the Missouri River, the Saints watched as a flock of quail filled the sky and landed on and around their wagons. Men and boys scrambled after the birds, catching them with their hands. Many recalled how God had also sent Moses and the children of Israel quail in their time of need.

‘This morning we had a direct manifestation of the mercy and goodness of God,’ wrote Thomas Bullock, a Church clerk, in his journal. ‘The brethren and sisters praised God and glorified His name that what was showered down upon the children of Israel in the wilderness is manifested unto us in our persecution.’

“‘Every man, woman, and child had quails to eat for their dinner,’ Thomas wrote31” (Saints, Volume 2, No Unhallowed Hand, “Chapter 3: Word and Will of the Lord,” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 43–44)

Segment 4:


Moses 1:10

Numbers 12:3, 8, 10

Numbers 16:1–4, 41–50

Numbers 20:1–5, 8–11, 26–28

Numbers 21:4–9

Fiery Serpents Scripture Chain:

1 Nephi 17:41

2 Nephi 25:20

Alma 33:19–22

Helaman 8:14–15

3 Nephi 27:14–15

John 3:14–15

Numbers 21


Water = Mayim


“I cannot escape the interpretation that meekness implies a spirit of gratitude as opposed to an attitude of self-sufficiency, an acknowledgment of a greater power beyond oneself, a recognition of God, and an acceptance of his commandments. This is the beginning of wisdom. Walk with gratitude before him who is the giver of life and every good gift” (President Gordon B. Hinckley, “With All Thy Getting Get Understanding,” August 1988 Ensign).

“Even Moses like many of us, seemed to let this humility cloak wear thin and threadbare. The Wanderers had come to the desert of Zinn… but Moses, undoubtedly annoyed to the limit of human endurance, forgot himself and said to them ‘Hear now, ye rebels: must we fetch you water out of this rock?’ The Lord was displeased with Moses in assuming to perform this miracle. I can imagine the Lord saying something like this: ‘Who did you say? Who made the water? Who made the rock? Moses! Who brought the water from the rock? …Moses had integrity in great measure but when he had presumptuously taken credit for the Lord's miracle, for a single moment he had forgotten” (President Spencer W. Kimball, “Humility: Why We Must Be Humble,” BYU Speeches, 1963)

Mary Cragun Cox Story:

“About this time, she [Mary] had a dream which she considered to be divine intervention to free her from her ‘bitter hatred’ of the federal marshals and her own depression. Rather like Dickens’s figure of Marley’s ghost, she saw herself with a chain around her neck so laden with heavy bundles that she could not lift her head to see the sky. Advised by an unnamed person to hang the bundles on the rod over her fireplace, she did so. Among them was a ‘large bundle’ of ‘wicked words I had said about the Utah Marshalls,’ another was debts she had not been able to collect, and another was baby clothes that she used to spread on her bed ‘on lonely stormy nights when there [was] no one . . . . to see or hear me weep over them.’ Each parcel became miraculously light as she lifted it to the rod, and when the last was gone, ‘lo, the chain was gone and I was free.’ She woke, resolved to be free indeed. When an Indian mother begged clothes for her child, Martha took out her box of baby clothes and dressed the child, feeling ‘shame for the tears I had shed over [them]’ (178–79)” (Lavina Fielding Anderson, “A ‘Salt of the Earth’ Lady: Martha Cragun Cox,” in Supporting Saints: Life Stories of Nineteenth-Century Mormons, ed. Donald Q. Cannon and David J. Whittaker (Provo, UT: Brigham Young University, Religious Studies Center, 1985),

Segment 5:


Numbers 22:1–35

Jude 1:11

Doctrine and Covenants 88:35

Numbers 24:10, 13–19

Revelations 2:14 (Counsel of Balaam)

Numbers 31:16


Esther = Star in Persian

Segment 6:


Numbers 27:1–4, 7–8

Numbers 36:6–7, 11

Links: President Russell M. Nelson, “A Plea to My Sisters,” October 2015 general conference


“By strict obedience Jesus won

“The prize with glory rife:

“‘Thy will, O God, not mine be done,’

“Adorned his mortal life” (Eliza R. Snow, “How Great the Wisdom and the Love”)

Tammy 0:02

How do you know if you can trust someone? I asked my husband this question and without any hesitation he replied: "if they're not wearing a BYU t-shirt."

Jenny 0:09

Ooo. "Rise and shout", I'm gonna sing it right now.

Tammy 0:13

Listen, I'm a BYU grad, he totally trusts me. He's a Utah State man. So if you know, you know, but seriously, I asked you that question, how do you know if you can really trust someone? And more importantly, how do you know if you can trust the Lord? Today's discussion of the book of Numbers, specifically chapters 11-14 and 20-30, will teach us the importance of obeying God. And might help us answer the question, Can I trust the Lord? Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Desert Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

If you're new to our study group, I just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description; that will explain how you can best use this podcast, just like my friends Jeff and Connie Rickard. Hi, guys. Thanks for coming to meet me at the Orem, Utah Desert Book. It was so fun to meet you. Now another awesome thing about our study group - this is my favorite - is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different each week. And today. Oh my gosh, how much do I love these two women? We have Stace Christianson and Jenny Reeder. Hi, guys.

Stace, Jenny 1:23

Hi, Tammy.

Tammy 1:25

Oh-ho-ho, my heart is so happy right now. Okay, real quick, let's remind everybody how we know each other.

Jenny Reeder 1:30

Stace was my Seminary teacher when I was a Junior at Timpview High school.

Tammy 1:35

And she was one of the first female Seminary teachers hired, by the way,

Stace 1:41

Which that now they have so many more. And it's wonderful because I think women should be teaching seminary; they definitely need them in the classroom.

Tammy 1:48


Stace 1:49

And we know Tammy, I know Tammy and Jenny, obviously Jenny just explained how I know her. Because we're part of a little study group there every now and then. And Jenny is the one who introduced me to Tammy.

Jenny 2:02

Yeah. And I know Tammy because she is best friends with one of my great friends. And she put on this magical 30th birthday party for her. And

Tammy 2:15

Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.

Jenny 2:17

Don't forget about that, we were at your grandma's house.

Tammy 2:19

Oh totally. I was living in my grandma's basement while I was going to graduate school.

Jenny 2:24

I know. We watched the opening ceremonies of the Olympics.

Tammy 2:27

Oh, we did.

Jenny 2:28

And you made such a great debut at our other friends' New Year's Eve party.

Tammy 2:36

I did. Boy, I love just friends coming together all round. It is so delightful. And one of my favorite things about these two women are the deep conversations that we have. And we laugh, like we laugh and then we're crying. And when I met Stace, there was just this immediate connection. I knew; I'm like, Oh, I was supposed to always be your friend. It just took this long to meet you. And it took Jenny to get us together. And so it's just and then we have our friend I know. And then we have Cherie, and she's been on the podcast before. And the four of us are just, we love each other.

Stace 3:08

It's a great time when we get together. It's fun.

Tammy 3:10

It is and we eat good food. So yeah. Well, if you want to know more about these two women, you can read their bios and see their pictures which are going to be found in our show notes at LDS on Monday. So go check that out. Okay, how excited are we for this episode?

Stace 3:24

Super excited.

Tammy 3:25

It is going to be so much fun. And that's all we're gonna say. So grab your scriptures, your scripture journal, your marking pens, all that fun stuff. And let's dig in. Okay. Ah, let me ask you this because, Stace, I love that you texted us, and it wasn't my favorite texts. You said you were so excited to study the book of Numbers with us. So I want to know why we're introducing a new book this time? Why would you tell someone to read the book of Numbers?

Stace 3:54

I think probably one of the first things that comes to mind is just the fiery flying serpent story. That's a classic, and the serpent on the stick, the serpent on the rod - the fact that we still use that in our medical practices. And we see that everywhere, or people who have medical issues, have, you know, they wear the bracelets are, you know. It is, I think a sign, 1-that we're a Judeo/Christian-based country still, we still have traditions that are based in these scriptures, actually, in the book of Numbers.

Tammy 4:27

That's a good point.

Stace 4:28

And I really liked that. And I think that we, whether you're a member of the church or not a member the church, we believe in finding healing, whether it's physical, emotional, spiritual, mental. We are people in our country who believe in healing, we want to find healing. And that is a very powerful mindset, I think.

Tammy 4:49

Wow. Wow, after that, I'm sold. Who wouldn't want to read the book of Numbers? That's so great. What about you, Jenny?

Jenny 4:57

I think it's the same thing because I don't know if I could have told you anything else that happens in Numbers. I'll be honest.

Tammy 5:03

Sure. Before a study of it, no way, right? But now after we've read it together, you know, my, I think the thing that I like about it the most is, this is where it starts to get real. This is where the crazy stories begin. Like before that we had a great history, a great genealogy of family history, you kind of felt like you were reading someone's genealogical findings and stories of their family. But now, boom, the stories are gonna get cuckoo-kachoo crazy. You're not going to believe it, you're gonna think there's no way that would have happened. And it is so much fun to read.

So the Book of Numbers is named for the Lord's instruction to Moses to number or count all the Israelite male members from 20 years old and upward, and all that're able to go to war. You can read that in Numbers 1:3. So a census is taken, right here at the beginning. And then there will be another census taken at the very end of the book of Numbers. But the Hebrew name is BA MID BAR, and that means "in the wilderness". And you see that in verse 1:

Num 1:1 "And the Lord spake unto Moses in the wilderness...." So that's the Hebrew name for this book, BaMidbar. The book records the Israelites' faithful and rebellious experiences as they wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. So that's what this is right here. It's everything that happened to them. Leviticus was the laws, remember, and now we're getting into the stories. So that's where we are in our timeframe. Moses is the author of numbers. And we believe that he may have also relied on other witnesses or other written sources, because some of the stories are written from a different viewpoint where Moses might not have been there, or it might have been retold to him.

We have an outline for the book of Numbers. So here's what you need to know about this book, and you can put it anywhere on your page. Here's the outline: label chapters 1-9, "the children of Israel at Mount Sinai, the numbering of Israelites”. This is where they did a census, and there were 603,500 males, not counting the tribe of Levi, or women or children. Then chapters 10-21 are "Israel's 38-year journey from Sinai to Moab". Then chapters 22-36, is "Israel's camping in the plains of Moab". This is where the older generation passes away who couldn't make and keep covenants.

And then while we're in the book of Numbers - just as a cute, fun little side thing here, since we're in the book of Numbers - we have created this in our glue ins. So if you go to our show notes, you'll find a link that you can click on that says glue ins. We've made one for you to put in here, which is The Symbolic Meaning of Hebrew numbers. And so we're going to give that to you right here. Because numbers are so important in the Bible. And it's so worthy knowing. Like #3 means the Godhead and divine fullness. Number 4 means mankind. Number 5 is a symbol of God's grace, that kind of thing. And we've talked about it throughout this whole year so far, that the number 40 is a period of testing and trying. So rather than have you wonder, like, where did I write that note, again? We've made a handout, and I love a handout and a glue in, don't you Stace? As a teacher, you're like,

Stace 7:57

I actually love that the Jewish numerology, I think it's so interesting.

Tammy 8:01

Yes, tell me why.

Stace 8:02

You get so much in the Scriptures when you know it.

Tammy 8:03

Um hmm, definitely. And from here on for sure. And you know, when you find the number 12, or the number 10, number 70, that we've talked about, oh my gosh; it's just powerful to know. So make sure you get that glue in, stick it in your scriptures, and we just decided to put it in the book of Numbers so then you'll always remember where it is in your scriptures. Where are the numbers? In the Book of Numbers. So, there you go. How fun was that?

Jenny 8:16

That was brilliant.

Tammy 8:28

Well, thank you, thank you. Okay, so that is our introduction to the book of Numbers. And I have asked Jenny and Stace to help me teach in today's episode, because first of all, they're brilliant women. Secondly, we need more women teaching scripture, as Stacey said, and they just have so many wonderful things to say. And I am so grateful for their willingness to help because I just texted 'em, and they were quickly with it. And we talked about this last week, we talked about the ability to say, "Sure, you bet." And that's what these two women did when I asked them to help me. "Shor, no problem." So thank you, ladies. So let's dive into this whole idea of that trust question that I asked at the very beginning. And we'll start with that in the next segment.

Segment 2 9:04


Tammy 9:05

Okay, so I want to go back to how I started that whole thing with that very serious question. How do you know if you can trust someone? Like, do you have a litmus test? What do you do? How do you know?

Jenny 9:14

You know, I have to go with my gut. One time I was having a conversation with my bishop after an event that happened. And he said, You know, I think we just need to think the best of each other. And I'm like, That is such a good idea. However, when, as a single woman, I have got to follow my gut. But you know, when it comes down to it, I think we're all blessed with this incredible gift. Those of us that have been to the temple with this gift of discernment. And it's so powerful and so that's part of helping me know who I can trust.

Tammy 9:46

Well, yeah. And that's the Holy Ghost. You say it's your gut. The Holy Ghost. Yeah, great answer.

Stace 9:55

I would actually agree. I just had an experience when I was home in California. I have been in my in my life, I think too trusting. So I'm trying to get better at what Jenny was talking about, like you have the responsibility to protect yourself and to use the spirit. But all of our priesthood covenants magnify that ability in us. So I was very aware when I met this person, and I just didn't trust him, and he kept asking me for hugs. And I was like, you know, I'm not comfortable with that. And he said, Oh, come on. And I was like, you know, you wouldn't want me to do something that made me uncomfortable.

Jenny 10:28

That's a good way of putting it.

Stace 10:31

But I was like, No, I just am not going to do that anymore.

Tammy 10:34

Wow. That was great.

Jenny 10:36

But it's also powerful. On the other side of that I, since we've started have been talking about the negative side of it, like warning signs and flashing lights and red flags. There's something about knowing when you meet someone, knowing, knowing you can trust them. And knowing that there's a connection and something that, I don't even know how to put words to it. But it's just like, My heart tells me this is a really good person.

Stace 11:04

Yeah. I agree with that. But I would say like, I'm just thinking about the first time I met Tammy, a couple of indicators to me, that she was getting the green light was when - she's transparent - I really like that about people. When they're transparent, and they talk really honestly, that's a language I understand so it, that makes me more trusting of that person. And I think the other thing, too, is, when they when they speak a language of self-awareness. I think those two things coupled together; it gives a green light to me. Like they're aware of themselves, they're aware of other people, and they're very transparent. I really like that combination.

Tammy 11:45

So let me ask you this. I love what both of you have just said, genuinely love it. Because now I'm wondering, the positive side that you just said, does it apply to the Lord?

Stace 11:54

Oh, for sure.

Tammy 11:55

Like, do we trust Him with the same goodness, like that He's transparent, that He speaks with self-awareness? Like, how do you trust the Lord?

Jenny 12:04

That is such a good question. And I love that Stace, the first sword out of her mouth was, Well, sure. Because for me, it's different. Like I can, I can receive some kind of revelation and then I don't feel anything for a really long time. And it worries me, and it takes me a long time. And I'm kind of like, Heavenly Father, do You know I'm here? Hi, I'm raising my hand, waving my hand, I'm jumping up and down, but I don't feel anything. And so for me, sometimes it's not immediate, and it's not consistent. So does that make me a bad person?

Tammy 12:44

No, it makes you human.

Stace 12:47

Well, I like to that one of the things that Jenny's kind of discerning is that there's differences in people, we all have a way of communing with God. And there's the little quick moments where we check in as we go throughout our day. And then there's the more serious moments when we really are pausing in our life journey, you know, to kind of check in for a bigger check-in and really do some deeper communing. And then there's like everything in between, right, like our daily prayer, the end of the day, beginning. I mean, scripture study, like, there are times, we're just quiet, and we're communing, and I think we're just checking in.

It does remind me of, I have my second daughter, who when she was little, I would be in the kitchen doing something and she'd go out into the living room, and she'd always come back every 20 minutes. And she just needed a little love. She's just checking in. And off she would go; she was just making sure, I guess, that I was still in the house or something. I don't know. Like I was never anywhere else it seemed . But I love that maybe that's what we're doing. We're doing just, she's just coming in to make sure that He's, I was still there, that I was still present, that I was still there to comfort her and love her and reassure her and then she could go off and explore the, you know, the rest of the house, the world, or whatever it was. You know, maybe that's what we're doing in the bigger picture with God.

Tammy 14:04

Yeah, I think that's awesome. Well, and Jenny when you're doing that, I'm here. I'm right, like, 'Do You remember me? I mean, I know You've done great things for me, but right now, right now. Hello.' As you were saying that I was picturing all the children of Israel in the book of Numbers doing that over and over and over again. Like that seems to be the theme. And we keep thinking like, what's the deal with the children of Israel? You know, and we said the quote, "It was easier to get the children of Israel out of Egypt than it was to get Egypt out of the children of Israel." But in this context, now, in the book of Numbers, story after story, is what you're just talking about, Jenny, like, these are human beings having human emotions, who have seen miracles happen. They know they can trust the Lord. But then there's that moment where they're like, 'Hello. Are You seeing me? I'm like, I'm not sure if You just heard what I asked.' Today's stories are just about trusting experience after trusting experience.

Stace 15:00

I've thought so much about the fact that the children of Israel had been like they were slaves, and what their mindset must have been like in reference to how they trusted anybody coming out of a slavery situation. I think it's really important that we remember that they had good reason not to trust people.

Jenny 15:21

Um, that's true.

Stace 15:23

Maybe they had spoken up their whole life. And maybe they worked hard their whole life and been faithful to these people who were overseeing them. So masters or they were servants of these people. And they were ignored. They were held in bondage. They were overlooked.

Jenny 15:40

And they were required to do things and they didn't have the, the materials they needed.

Stace 15:47

So a mindset like that, I think had to have influenced their ability to do things like believe that they were worthy of being heard; believed that they, someone could actually hear them or see them, or respond to them in a loving, caring way that taught them their value. And I wonder if that first generation - one of the reasons why that first generation had to go - was because that mindset was so steeped into their everyday belief system, their everyday framework, their whole perspective about how to live, that they could never get over it. And so that's just the way it turned out for them. Like that, that's I mean, there was nothing to do about that. So to say, like to see them wrestle, I think is legitimate.

Tammy 16:39

It IS legitimate. You just summed up the entire reason for crisis of faith in the world. Anyone that's been raised in anything you just described would struggle trusting the Lord. trusting anyone?

Stace 16:55

Trusting anyone, but especially the Lord. Like, you know, in my whole life He's never done this and now He's saying, He's going to, and I'm supposed to trust Him. Like, I think it was hard for them. It was, had to have been hard for them.

Tammy 17:05

You're totally right.

Stace 17:06

It had to be a new generation that had a different mindset. This is why slavery is, it's not right.

Tammy 17:11

Right, yeah.

Stace 17:12

You look at the damage in somebody's life. And then now you add, like, I don't know how many millions of people, millions

Jenny 17:17

And generations.

Stace 17:18

generations, generations, yeah, this is why abuse isn't right. Because when we objectify anybody, they have such a hard time coming to believe that they're a child of God and what that really means. It, they have a hard time seeing it.

Tammy 17:32

Can we just take a minute and just go, You're feeling the spirit right now. Holy, moly, so much truth has just been spoken. That's the foundation we need for today's lesson, you guys.

Jenny 17:47

It makes so much more sense, having laid that foundation. Thank you, Stacey.

Tammy 17:51

Yeah, it does. The book of Numbers. Now you're like, Oh, okay. So let's turn to Numbers chapter 11. And in the next segment, Jenny is going to lead us in this discussion about these beautiful children of Israel and their trust issues.

Segment 3 17:54


Tammy 18:08

Okay, so somewhere on your page around Numbers chapter 11, just go ahead and put "Proverbs 3:5-6. And here's what it says: "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding, in all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Okay. In 2017 General Conference, Sister Bonnie H Cordon, did an excellent job teaching about this specific scripture. And she talked about how the scripture comes with two admonitions, a warning, and a glorious promise. And the two admonitions are to "trust in the Lord with all thine heart." And the next one is: "and in all thy ways acknowledge him." The warning was: "lean not unto thine own understanding". And the promise is: "he shall direct thy paths". Now listen to this quote, it's so cool. Stacy, will you please read this for us?

Stace 18:51

"Let's first discuss the warning. The visual image gives us so much to ponder. The warning comes from the words "Lean not; lean not unto thine own understanding." In English, the word lean has a connotation of physicality, listing or moving to one side. When we physically lean toward one side or another, we move off center, we are out of balance, and we tip. When we spiritually lean to our own understanding, we lean away from our Savior. If we lean we are not centered. We are not balanced. We are not focused on Christ."

Tammy 19:25

I totally thought of Stace when I got that quote, just FYI. She's a yoga master.

Jenny 19:30

I know.

Stace 19:31

That's funny. I do think of also the balancing poses.

Tammy 19:33

I know you do; I know. And so we're going to just study some stories right now in the book of Numbers about people or individuals or groups of people that lean. And so we're going to start out with Jenny in Numbers chapter 11. Hit it, sis.

Jenny 19:47

All right, I want you to think about this. We hear about murmuring a lot, whether it be with Laman and Lemuel, or with the children of Israel in the chapters leading up to this. But in verse 1 of chapter 11 we get a new verb. What's the verb?

Tammy 20:03

Ooh, 'complain'?

Jenny 20:04

Complain. Yes. And there's only one other place in the Old Testament where that verb is used and that's in Lamentations 3:39. And it's in Arabic: to complain means to show sadness or to groan, where murmur means to grumble.

Tammy 20:29

Didn't Sara complain to Lehi?

Stace 20:32

That's what I was just thinking -

Tammy 20:33

It doesn't it say she murmured?

Jenny 20:34

I don't know.

Tammy 20:35

I think she complained. Meaning she was sad.

Jenny 20:38

She was expressing her sadness.

Tammy 20:41

It's in 1 Nephi 5:3. She complained, she complained. Jenny, she complained.

Jenny 20:47

There you go.

Tammy 20:48

That reframes the whole story.

Stace 20:50

Isn't that about her sons not coming back, or is that to

Tammy 20:53

No, it's her sons hadn't come back. And she was terrified that they were dead, and so she complained that her husband was a visionary man.

Stace 21:00


Tammy 21:02

Jenny, I can't believe what you just taught us. She wasn't really complaining, she was sad.

Stace 21:10


Tammy 21:11


Stace 21:11

That changes everything, doesn't it?

Tammy 21:13


Jenny 21:14

It does.

Tammy 21:14

Okay, keep going.

Jenny 21:16

All right. So my question is, what are they complaining about?

Stace 21:19

They don't have any meat to eat.

Jenny 21:21

They don't have meat. But what else do they not have? In (Num 11) verses 5 and 6 and 7.

Tammy 21:29

Oh I thought this was interesting because I thought I'd complain about the same thing. It wasn't good. It wasn't yummy. Like the food was bland. They like, they didn't have any herbs or onions or garlic, it says,

Jenny 21:41

Right. So it was a flavor to it. But interestingly enough, that is the Egyptian diet right there in verse 5: cucumbers, and melons, leeks, and onions, and garlic. So earlier, they compare the manna that they receive every day, to honey. But at this point in verse 8, what's the last sentence? What does it taste of?

Tammy 22:03

Oh, fresh oil.

Stace 22:04

Not very good.

Jenny 22:05

No, there's no taste to it.

Tammy 22:07

No more honey.

Jenny 22:08

Yeah, so part of me realizes that they're complaining and not just murmuring, they're really, I mean, this is serious, that they aren't being able to have this Egyptian lifestyle that they had before with this powerful, idolatrous, and worldly, all the worldly appeals. And they are desiring, or lusting is the word that they use throughout this chapter, for that life. And God has rescued them again and again. But now they're finding one more thing to add. It's like the straw that broke the camel's back. We're tired of manna. So I think it's interesting that they would rather live in that slavery with a full belly than live hungry in freedom.

Stace 22:50

Wow, that's a great insight. I love that.

Tammy 22:54

Me, too.

Jenny 22:54

So this is starting to be a theme that we see: the children of Israel, 'Let us return to Egypt'. There's not as much focus on the promised land, it is too difficult for them to let go of the past. It was a habit, a relationship, a weakness that they were always dwelling on the past instead of looking to the present and to the future. So God's reaction in verse 1, what is it? They complained. And then what's that second phrase say?

Tammy 23:25

it displeased the Lord.

Jenny 23:27

And he heard it and then what?

Tammy 23:30

Oh, anger.

Stace 23:31


Jenny 23:32

11:1 "....his anger was kindled; and the fire of the Lord burnt among them and consumed them that were in the uttermost parts of the camp."

Tammy 23:40

It's so sad.

Jenny 23:42

It is sad, but I want us to look at this in a different way. How have we seen fire, particularly with Moses and with the children of Israel; think about where Moses sees a bush on fire?

Stace 23:55

Oh, how good. That's the first thing that came with the burning bush. A holy place. It's a sanctified place.

Jenny 24:00

Right. And He's showing Himself to Moses. Right. How is the tabernacle guided? By day with

Tammy, Stace 24:09

Fire, fire?

Jenny 24:11

Yeah, a pillar of fire by night. And so I'm wondering if this display of God's power is that He wants them to repent. And He's trying to show Himself to them and guide them. It's not your typical 'Protestant wrath from sin, God.' But it's a God saying, 'This is who I am. And I am here, and I see you, Jenny Reeder. And I see you Stace, and I see you, Tammy, and I see you - all you children of Israel - and I have worked so hard to provide nutrients for you. And at first you were grateful, but then you've forgotten and you're looking to the past, to that period of slavery.' And I think that's so interesting, but we see in verse 31, they're asking Him for meat. And so what does He provide for them, in verse 31?

Stace 25:01


Jenny 25:02

Yeah, oil. So it's interesting, this, that quails are known to fly along the Sinai Peninsula at Spring during the Spring and during the Fall. And so the Lord brought the quails from the sea and let them fall by the camp as it were a day's journey. And it says they fell round about the camp. And as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth, that's like three feet high. So they were flying really low, low enough for people to catch them. So I want to tell you some stories, because I'm a 19th century historian, not an ancient historian.

Tammy 25:40

Please do.

Jenny 25:41

So, in 1846, Brigham Young started leading the saints out of Nauvoo. And you have the first wave in the winter - early part of the year, the second wave in the spring. And then in the fall, September, you still have 1000 saints left stuck in Nauvoo. And most of them at this point didn't have wagons or teams or were too ill to travel. And on September 13, 1846, armed mobs attack the Saints in Nauvoo and what is called the Battle of Nauvoo, and the Saints promised to leave within three days. And so meanwhile, refugees swarmed across the river to Montrose, Iowa, but most of them were destitute and sick. And by mid-September, there were six to 700 saints camping on what is known as Potter's slough.

Now without knowing all of these details, that they've been attacked and had to leave, Brigham Young was in winter quarters, and he sent Captain Orville in Allen with a rescue team of wagons and provisions to bring them to Winter Quarters. They left on September 14th. So by the 4th of October, Thomas Bullock, who was with that group of saints just leaving Nauvoo, counted only 17 tents and 8 wagons, with 640 people. He said, "most of those are the poorest of the saints, not a tent or wagon, but sickness in it." By 6th, the 6th of October, there were 300 evicted saints on the Mississippi River. Linda Norris, who was a young girl watched her father die in the Battle of Nauvoo; then her mother and infant sister died in their camp on the Mississippi. So she was an orphan. All of these saints were sick, hungry, ill-equipped, poorly clothed, doubtful about gathering with a body of saints.

So when Captain Allen arrived, he gathered up about 151 people, which was half of the number waiting for help, that's all he could transport. So now we come to this day, October 9, 1840, and Captain Allen said that this day was a direct manifestation of the mercy and goodness of God. So the first rescue team was preparing to leave with its band of 6 saints that morning, a large flock of quail flew into the camp and startling the company. And he recorded this in his journal: "Some fell on the wagons, some under ,and some alighted on the breakfast tables. The brethren and children ran after them and caught them alive with their hands. There were so many quails that every man, woman, and child had them for dinner. The quail returned again and again that day circling the camp and alighting so the saints could easily catch that, even the sickling in their wagons. Thus was showered down upon the poor, persecuted saints, a sufficiency. The brethren and sisters praised God and glorified His name." And I love that. I love that whole idea...

Tammy 27:34


Stace 27:34

I love that story. That is amazing

Jenny 28:00 the Lord gave them a sufficiency. I think that's a really significant word, sufficiency.

Tammy 28:50

I'm writing that next to verse 20, because it's one of my favorite things in this story. When the Lord says, 'Oh, I'm going to send something. In fact, I'm going to send so much of it, it'll come out of your nostrils.' That's so funny. (laughter) 'You don't even know how much I'm gonna send you. It's going to come out your noses.' That's right there. That's my God. He is funny. That is funny. And so I'm putting 'sufficiency' next to verse 20.

Jenny 29:14

Interesting that you should say that Tammy, because if you look down at verse 33, "...while the flesh of the", we're going back to the children of Israel and the quails.

Num 11:33 "The flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled" (There's that fire part again) "against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague."

Now he didn't kill them, but this is a plague. It was, it could have been food poisoning, or dysentery, or cholera. It's not death, though. He's just kindling his reminder to them of, Look what I've given you. So another thing that I think is, is a parallel to this in this chapter, chapter 11, is Moses is having trouble. He hears, in verse 10, "the people weep throughout their families.....and the anger of the Lord is kindled greatly: {And] Moses is also displeased." And he says in verse 11 unto the Lord, 11 "wherefore hast thou afflicted me? Why have I not found favor? And why do I have to carry the burden of this people upon me?" And then in verse 14,

Tammy 30:31

I highlighted this, yes, I'd love to because it's, oh my gosh, anyone listening, if you've not felt this feeling, I'd love to know, send me a message, because I think everyone will resonate with this verse. 14 "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me." Like, it's just too much, it's too heavy. I cannot. I'm tired.

Stace 30:54

He didn't feel up to it. Like he feels, he just through that, overwhelmed and burned out in that.

Tammy 31:00

That beautiful wording: "it is too heavy for me."

Jenny 31:04

Um hmmm. And I, it kind of reminds me what the people say in verse 6: "our soul is dried away." This is hard stuff. We're in the messy middle right here.

Tammy 31:16

Boy, we are! Oh, my gosh.

Jenny 31:21

How does the Lord respond to Moses? What does he do in 16 and 17?

Stace 31:28

I mean, He proves that He can be trusted.

Tammy 31:31

He gives him some help.

Jenny 31:32

And how does He do that? By Tammy, by giving him then some help?

Tammy 31:36

Yeah, he gives them 70 men out of the elders of Israel. And that's where we get the Quorum of the 70, the idea of that, like, All right, let Me get you some people, let's do this together.

Jenny 31:46

Right, "that they may stand there with thee." They are going to share that heavy, heavy burden.

Tammy 31:52

Oh, I'm so glad you pointed that out. "that they may stand there with thee." That's too heavy.

Jenny 31:57

And then in verse 17. At the end, it says, "And they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone."

Stace 32:06

I love that. He, I feel like Moses was so heard, and so honored, and God was so supportive. And, and I love that our church is still organized this same way. No one person all the way down to ministering, our ministering assignments, no one person has to do anything alone. We're supported, we have help, we have committees, we have correlation. I mean, I'm the first one to say I don't like meetings much, but I like what happens in those meetings, I think is actually really important. And it certainly would be better if we, you know, it's better to have them than to not have them. Do you know what I'm saying?

Tammy 32:51

Yeah, well, I'm going back to the number thing that we have on there, we put the 'number 70' on there. And the number 70 in Hebrew means, it signifies - I know, isn't this fun - it signifies completeness, or perfect order. But like it, it made Moses complete, it gave him the ability to do what he needed to do. And then I think of us in our own lives, who's a part of your 70? Who completes you? Who can you go to that's going to help you carry the burdens that you you have, like this number could be literally 70 people? But the Quorum of the 70s is made up of more than 70. So

Jenny 33:21

And there's more than seven quorums.

Tammy 33:23

Exactly. So I just think like, like, think about that. Who's it? Who makes up your 70, who completes you, who perfects you, who's going to be there for you when you are just crying "it's too heavy for me?" Sit and look around because there's, there's a lot of people in that quorum of yours, more than you probably would recognize.

Jenny 33:41

It's like my host. And I'm going to tell you what, Tammy and Stace and Cherie, wherever you are. You're part of my host.

Tammy 33:49

Yeah, yeah we are.

Stace 33:51

Mine, too. That's why we've been friends for so long. Yeah, I really like that. Plus, I love the idea of a perfect quorum or a perfect committee. Its intention is to bring people to Christ, and it's perfect in that way. I love that.

Tammy 34:11

Wow. That was so good. Thank you for that discussion of chapter 11. I mean, that was one chapter. So here's what we're going to do then: we are going to talk more about these stories about the children of Israel who complained and who have their prayers answered and who were being reminded on a regular basis that, that you can trust the Lord. Just lean into Him; lean. Everyone just lean into Jesus. And so in the next segment, we're gonna go over some more stories about which way the children Israel lean.

Segment 4 34:38


Tammy 34:41

Okay, you guys, I'm going to tell you about some of the greatest leanings of all time in the book of Numbers, only to end with THE greatest leaning story that Stacy kind of gave us a little tidbit about in the very beginning. We're finally here. So go with me, we're gonna go really fast. Because the Come Follow Me manual doesn't really cover much of these stories, but you have to know them. I encourage you to go read them if you want to know more.

Let's go to Numbers chapter 12. The first thing right out of the gate is Moses married an Ethiopian. Yes, that is true. If you want to read more about it, you can read about it in Josephus. It was through a war that Egypt had with Ethiopia and as a prize, Moses was given an Ethiopian woman to marry. That's all we know. We don't know much; the history is lacking. But what we do know is that Aaron and Miriam did not like that Moses was married to an Ethiopian and they had a fit about it. So in that story, right here, we have that. Then they complain and they say, Yeah, I don't really think you're a prophet. I don't think you're really legit anymore because you married out of the covenant. But the one thing they're forgetting is what's written about Moses in verse 3. Jenny, will you read this verse for us?

Jenny 35:38

Yeah, I love it.

12: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth."

Tammy 35:45

Yes. Why do you love it? Tell me about it.

Jenny 35:47

I love it because this is what Gordon B Hinckley said about that. He said ,"Meekness implies a spirit of gratitude, as opposed to a spirit of self-sufficiency." Let that one sink in.

Stace 36:00

Oh, I just love that.

Jenny 36:02 acknowledgment of a greater power beyond oneself, a recognition of God, and acceptance of His commandments."

Tammy 36:11


Stace 36:11

Well, we, I can I just, oh my gosh, in my, As soon as you started reading that quote from President Hinckley, that chapter 1 in Moses 1 (vs 10) comes to mind as evidence, right? Of, he says: "Now...I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed." That's a sign of his meekness. You know what I love about that exchange when he and God see each other, Christ the first time, and then Satan comes. And then the next time he sees Christ, when He sees all the inhabitants of the world, it's all the questions. It's just question after question until he finally gets the answer he's looking for. He's a seeker. That's a sign of humility. To me, that's a sign of his meekness. Teach me everything. And Moses wouldn't have seen or had the ability or power. That's the really the word I'm looking for. He would not have had the power to have seen all that and had that experience had he not been asking all those questions in meekness.

Jenny 37:10

I love that what you're saying, Stace is exactly what President Hinckley says. It's an acknowledgement of a greater power beyond oneself. Yep. A recognition of God.

Stace 37:20

And when you're with Him, ask Him a lot of questions.

Tammy 37:23


Jenny 37:23

Oh, I got a lot of questions.

Stace 37:26

That's a sign that you need Him, miss Jenny.

Tammy 37:27

It is, it is. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you shared that with us, Jenny. That is a great quote. Because the interesting thing is Miriam and Aaron, they're not seeing it. They're not agreeing with this verse, or with the quote that you shared. In fact, they're so upset about it that the Lord has to come in and He's gonna give that like, Listen, I don't think you get this. And then how much do we love verse 8? The Lord's saying, With him, Moses, will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches. I just, ah so good. That's how He speaks with the Prophet. And so Miriam and Aaron have to be called to repentance. And if you look at verse 10, the cloud departs from the tabernacle and Miriam becomes a leper. Aaron does not - I have issue with that, but whatever, that's neither here nor there - we're gonna let it go. And then she's healed. They both are called to repentance, and they repent.

Now. Chapter 13 is a wonderful story about spies, espionage, if you have time to read it I highly recommend it. Then we get into chapter 14, Chapter 15. So many good stories, but we don't have time. Then we go into chapter 16:1-4, there is a mutiny of all mutinies in the Old Testament. A Levite leader who was from the Korahite group, he's in charge of the ark and other sacred things, plus two of his associates from tribe of Reuben, and 250 princes or leaders. They rebel, they try to assert Moses' authority. And as a result, they are swallowed up in the earth. That is right, the earth opens, it swallows up all of those men and all of their families, children, everybody, and then the earth closes back up together. Don't mess with the Lord.

Stace 38:52

Tell ya, this is a great movie.

Tammy 38:53

Honestly. This is the book where you're like, This is the craziest stuff ever. Okay, then we're still in Numbers, chapter 16:41-50. The children of Israel murmured again against Moses because the people were killed. They're like, what's the deal? Why did they have to be swallowed up in the earth? And they're struck with a plague. So we've got that. Then turn the page. You go, Oh, my gosh, so many more great stories. We're going to highlight this one. We're gonna go to Numbers chapter 20. Miriam dies; we're so sad. Let's highlight that in chapter 20:1, 2. Isn't this interesting that it says Miriam died there and was buried there and there was no water for the congregation. Incidentally, the word Miriam means water. The word for, in Hebrew for water is MAYIM. And that's where we get Miriam. Isn't that, I just, don't you love that. The poetry there. Oh, yeah. Like maybe there really wasn't water, OR there wasn't

Stace 39:27

There was no Miriam

Tammy 39:46

No Miriam as the prophetess. She was a prophetess; we know that about her.

Jenny 39:55

I want to know so much more about her.

Tammy 39:53

Oh, don't we all. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Yep. Well, interesting enough, because there was no water, we know that the children of Israel are very upset about this. And in verses 3, 4, 5 they come up and they're like, We don't even have water to feed our cattle. Are we just gonna die here? Again, it would have been better if we were in Egypt - we have nothing to drink. And now you taught us this, Jenny. But look at verse 5 when they say, "...wherefore ye have made us to come out of Egypt, to bring unto this evil place?" There's no place for seed or figs or vines or pomegranates, like everything they were used to, they can't have in the wilderness. And so Moses goes to the Lord and the Lord says to Moses, Okay, here's what you want to do, in verse 8. Everybody mark this, because we're going to need this in our next story that we come to.

Num 20:8 "Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes;" highlight the word speak. "and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

9 "And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him."

Now verse 10,

10 "And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?"

Highlight that. There's something unique about that we, he's not including the Lord in the we. He's saying, All right, here we go again. Now we've got to get you guys’ water. And verse 11.

11 "And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, "

And it's important to notice that Moses and Aaron are a little bit rebellious, in that the Lord told Moses to speak to the rock, and he hit the rock instead with his staff. He kind of just went with what he knew worked before, almost like he wasn't sure if speaking would work. This is going to play into the whole story that Aaron and Moses will not get to see the promised land because of this incident right here. And there's a great quote by Spencer W Kimball about this, and I'm gonna put it in my show notes because we don't have time to read it. But I highly recommend you go and read this quote about how Moses is human, and that's okay. He's having this moment, and he will pay the price for this moment, which we won't get to right now.

And then Aaron dies. And this is found in Numbers 20:26-29. They take Eliezer, his son, and Moses makes him the new high priest. And then in verse 28, Moses stripped Aaron out of his garments and put them upon Eliezer, and Aaron died. And so Aaron will never be able to see the new land of Canaan because he and Moses rebelled. And then Moses won't either, like he'll have to wait, and we'll find that story a little bit later. Okay, then we're gonna go into Numbers 21. (sings) Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Stace 42:28

That was beautiful.

Tammy 42:30

Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. This is the story of all stories. And we're going to start with it in verse 4, and Stace hit it - just read verses 4 and 5.

Stace 42:39

Num 21:4 "And they journeyed from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.

5 "And that people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread."

Tammy 42:58

Thank you. Okay, so, right, they're complaining, they're discouraged because of the way, because there was a much easier way to get from point A to point B. They're like, why do we have to go this difficult, arduous way? They're complaining now about the journey. And as a result, read for us verse 6, Stace.

Stace 43:14

6 "And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Tammy 43:20

So of course, the children of Israel come and they're so sad about what's going on, because people are dying. Back in Numbers 21:7 says,

7 "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And then verse 9, "And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

And that's the end of the fiery serpent story. But there are more verses of scripture that give us more information to make it so fun. And we're going to look up the scriptures and we're going to create a scripture chain to learn what else happened. So here's where our Scripture chain begins. Let's put 1 Nephi 17:41, next to any one of those verses we read from verse 4-9, bracket those off. And Jenny, will you please read for us 1 Nephi 17:41.

Jenny 44:23

1 Ne 17:41 "And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they hardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished."

Tammy 44:50

Tell me, why do you think they chose not to look? Give me some real answers. We say the easiness of the way and all of that, what does that really look like for us?

Jenny 44:58

I think one thing is that they had been bitten by fiery serpents or poisonous serpents. And then the Lord tells Moses and Moses tells them to look at the fiery serpent. Like, I think I would be like, oh, gosh, I can't, I can't look at that awful thing. But they have to look at that thing that has harmed them. They have to, they have to deal with it.

Tammy 45:22

Yeah. Oooh, they have to deal with it.

Jenny 45:24

They have to make peace with it.

Tammy 45:27

That's good.

What are you, Stace?

Stace 45:29

I think the first thing that comes to mind is they're focused on their own suffering. Instead of focusing on the serpent or the Savior, their focus became their own hardship, their own difficulty, their own, why me? Why them. And I think that's a really easy thing to get distracted with. And I think it's a really easy thing to substitute the Savior, it gets pushed out of your focus when you do that. I do think it's a sign of a hard heart when we do that.

Tammy 45:58

That is so relatable, to be so consumed in your own sorrow. Great answers, great discussion. So let's do this. Next to your 1 Nephi 17:41 scripture, let's do the next scripture: 2 Nephi 25:20. That's 2 Nephi 25:20, and let's turn there. And Stace when we get there will you please read that for us.

Stace 46:21

2 Ne 25:20 "And now my brethren, I have spoken plainly that you cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes into the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also give him power that he should smite the rock and water should come forth; yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."

Tammy 46:55

So the symbol, and you mentioned this earlier, Stace, that the snake was a symbol of Jesus Christ, and looking to the Savior. And that's what that verse is teaching us. Jenny,

Jenny 47:05

Okay, I remember you talking in an earlier podcast this year about a Garden of Eden, and about how the serpent - the snake that came to Eve - that the serpent is actually a symbol of Christ. In verse 4 of numbers 21, it talks about that how they were discouraged because of 'the way'. And we know that Christ is THE WAY and also it said that word in 1 Nephi 17:41 it said they were they did, they were turned off by the simpleness of the WAY.

Stace 47:40

Christ is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE that's, that you're say that. Oh my gosh, I love that.

Tammy 47:44

Christ is the way

Jenny 47:46

right, but it's He's also the

Tammy 47:47

The ONLY way.

Stace 47:48

He's also the cause of the pain.

Tammy 47:51

Yeah. Which we knew and He knew, and He experienced. Whoa, so of course He's the only one that could heal us. Because He is the pain, He felt our pain, so He knows how to heal our pain. So it makes sense that we would look to Him in our pain.

Stace 48:08

And He's the escape from our pain.

Tammy 48:11

Okay, so section 19 of Doctrine and Covenants. Okay, next to your 2 Nephi, let's do another scripture chain, then. Put the next one, is Alma 33:19-22. And let's go there. Alma f33:19-22. Wow. And then Jenny, when we get there, will you read that for us?

Jenny 48:32

Alma 33:19 "Behold, he was spoken of by Moses; yea, and behold a type was raised up in the wilderness, that whosoever would look upon it might live. And many did look and live.

20 "But few understood the meaning of those things, and this because of the hardness of their hearts. But there were many who were so hardened that they would not look, therefore they perished. Now the reason they would not look is because they did not believe that it would heal them.

21 "O my brethren, if ye could be healed by merely casting about your eyes that ye might be healed, would ye not behold quickly, or would ye rather harden your hearts in unbelief, and be slothful, that ye would not cast about your eyes, that ye might perish?

21 "If so, wo shall come upon you; but if not so, then cast about your eyes and begin to believe in the Son of God, that he will come to redeem his people, and that he shall suffer and die to atone for their sins; and that he shall rise again from the dead, which shall bring to pass the resurrection, that all men shall stand before him, to be judged at the last and judgment day, according to their works."

Tammy 49:40

Tell me what you're feeling.

Jenny 49:41

I'm just feeling how powerful it is to cast my eyes. I love that word 'cast my eyes', because I feel like it's also casting off my sins or my fears or my past

Tammy 49:56


Jenny 49:56

to look forward. I have to tell a story. Mary Craven Cox, an early Latter-Day Saint woman was a polygamous wife, she had to work really hard. She was not the first wife, she had to work really hard to provide for her little family. And her burdens felt so heavy. And she dreamed a dream one night, and she had these burdens around her neck, literally. There was a chain around her neck with different bundles of burdens. And the Spirit told her, Take off your burdens one by one and hang them on this rod that was over her fireplace. And so one by one, she couldn't even look up, that's how heavy it was. And so she took off those burdens one by one and put them on that rod. And finally the chain fell off of her neck and she was able to look up and see the sun. And I just think that's so beautiful is that she was prevented because of those burdens from seeing that healing power. But once she was able to let go of them she could see it.

S-o-n or s-u-n? The sun,

Stace 50:34

s-o, no, s-u-n.

Jenny 50:38

S-O-N, for sure. Wow. I mean, Jenny, thank you.

Stace 51:12

Well, can I add something here, too? Just listening to Jenny read that scripture, I'm trying to discern, like my question as I'm reading through the Scripture chain is: what is the difference between a hard heart and a soft heart? If a hard heart -and I started with this idea in my head is - why me, you know? Then what would a soft heart response look like?

Jenny 51:35

Yeah. Isn't it interesting that so often we see in the Scriptures 'hardhearted' connected to 'stiff neck'? And I think if you have a stiff neck, you can't really twist it around or move it.

Stace 51:48

can't see.

Tammy 51:49

Can't lift it up because it's burdened. Oh, wow!

Stace 51:52

Its ability is so impaired, you can't fully, like

Tammy 51:55

Yes, oh my gosh. So good. Okay, let's do two more scriptures, and then we're done. To you, right to the next side of that write Helaman 8:14. Stacy, will you please read Helaman 8:14-15.

Stace 52:08

Helaman 8:14 "Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come.

15 "And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal."

That's a, that's a soft heart right there,

Tammy 52:33

right there. Very good. And next to that scripture in Helaman, put this one: 3 Nephi 27:14-15. Jenny, will you read those for us.

Jenny 52:42

3 Ne 27:13 "....I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my father sent me.

Tammy 52:46

14 "And my father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works."

And then next to the 3 Nephi scripture, let's do this: John 3:14,15 and I will read those.

John 3:14. "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up:

15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life."

And then next to that John scripture in your scriptures, go ahead and write Numbers 21. And that will take you back, that's your full scripture chain. So, awesome job, ladies. Thank you, that was so powerful and raw and emotional and, and true. Everything we taught was true. It is incredible, and that Jesus is The Way. That is what this is all about. He is the WAY and that's what He's just trying to remind them of again, and again. I know the way I'm taking you as hard, but it's about Me, not you. You're consumed in how hard this is for you but there is a reason for it. So, awesome discussion. Thank you so much. Okay, the next segment, then, we're going to continue on with more stories where again, which way are we leaning? And we're going to turn that time over to Stace in the next segment.

Segment 5 54:08


Tammy 54:10

We have been living for this story. All right, Stace, take us down this journey, here we go. The story of all stories.

Stace 54:16

This is the story of all stories. And actually, it's also I want to say a story within a story. So I'll start by saying that the overarching story is about a king of Moab, whose name is Balak, and he is in touch with a local prophet who we're guessing - we don't really know that much about Balaam. - but we think he was a Canaanite. We think he was not an Israelite, not of the children of Israel, but a Hebrew.

Tammy 54:47

Somehow we know, and we learned the name in Hebrew somehow means 'you come from the house of Israel'. Through Jacob's line.

Stace 54:53

Right. Right. Exactly.

Tammy 54:54

Very cool.

Stace 54:55

So, but we have also a very real person, and it's the craziest, wackiest story I'm pretty sure in all of Scripture.

Tammy 55:07

I think you're right.

Like I talked about Balak is the king of Moab and the children of Israel have traveled through Midian. So Moab and Midian, which are key players in this story are neighbors. And there's kingdoms within both. And when the children of Israel in chapters 20 and 21 come up through, you have some people who are afraid of the children of Israel. It's a lot of people, there's a lot of soldier-age men, and they attack, and Israel just destroys them. And so you can see, I think it's under easy to understand why any King who's in charge and responsible of his people and protecting his people would be nervous about this people coming through. Now, we also know that both of those people that attacked earlier, attacked first. So they were on the offensive and the children of Israel just defending themselves, but they were still a powerful force to be reckoned with.

So Balak, king of Moab hears about Balaam. And he recognizes and believes that he's a prophet, and he knows he speaks with God. And he knows more specifically that he's known for giving blessings or cursings. And so he reaches out to him, he sends the princess of Moab. He says that invite Balaam into cursing Israel. Hey, we'll give you lots of honor. We'll give you some money, you'll be set for the rest of your life. So many people will respect you if you just can curse Israel, so that I can protect my people. And Balaam says, Well, why don't you guys all stay the night and I'll pray about it tonight? And we'll see what God has to say about that. And he says, Nope, can't do it.

And then this actually, these verses are the second invitation that King Balak sends to Balaam inviting him again. But 'come on, we know you can curse, just do it. Because we're, we want to protect ourselves.' And Balaam says, Okay, why don't you stay the night ,again, stay the night again. And we'll see what God says. And in verse 20, Tammy, do you mind read reading verse 20, for me.

20 "And God came into Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do."

Stace 57:26

So the Joseph Smith translation version actually inserts between where it says, "rise up and go", it says "if thou wilt go with them." Then you're sort of like giving him this option

Tammy 57:41

giving him agency, huh? Like,

Stace 57:42

giving him agency, yeah.

Tammy 57:45

It's that story where he's asked several times already. But the Lord's like, 'You can't go; don't go.' And Balaam asks again. He's like, 'Alright, look, if you want to go, go; but only do what I tell you to do. '

Jenny 57:57

Like Martin Harris and the pages of the manuscript.

Tammy 57:59

100% Yeah,

Stace 58:00

That is 100%. But Balaam starts to go. I mean, he knows. It's not like he's unclear about the commandment God has given him, he knows. And he gets up the next morning, he saddles his She-ass, and he starts going back to Moab with the intention to curse Israel with this group of people, this like company. And God's anger was kindled as he went. Now, you might wonder why God, His anger was so kindled. We don't actually know the intention from this story in Numbers about the quality of Balaam's heart, what are his actual intentions. But that's what God is actually responding to. So I just want to read Jude 1:11. Tammy, can I have you read Jude when you get there?

Tammy 58:46

Jude 1:11 "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core,"

Stace 58:57

What did we learn about Balaam? In this verse, what's the quality of his heart?

Tammy 59:01

Well, he was greedy. He wanted a reward.

Stace 59:04

Yeah, he was greedy. And I think, so this is one of the things I actually, this sounds maybe a little strange. But when I read these, this verse particular, I was like, you know, that makes him very relatable. All of a sudden - he's a prophet - then I can go, You know, sometimes I feel greedy, too. And if somebody promised me money set for the rest of my life, like a perfect retirement where I'd be comfortable, that'd be pretty tempting to me.

Tammy 59:26

Doesn't the king continue to promise him more and more with every ask?

He ups the ante every time.

Yeah. Every time he just adds more to the coffer, and so that would, Balak's like, huu ha, okay, I'll just go see. Balaam's like, let me just go check things out. I'm not really going to do anything, but maybe if I just go see things, let's just see what happens.

Stace 59:46

This is why God's anger is kindled against Balaam. So when he starts to journey into the innocuous den of making bad choices, one of the things that happens is God tries to stop them, so he sends an angel to disrupt his journey. And Balaam can't see the angel, but his donkey can. And I wonder, again, this sort of just repeats the idea of where was Balaam's heart? What was his intention? What was blinding him? And I do think it was the temptation of honor and money. But the first time the donkey sees the angel, she wanders off into a field, and see what verse, let's have Tammy, can you read verse 23 for me

Tammy 1:00:31

22:23 "And the ass saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way."

Stace 1:00:43

Thank you. How does Balaam respond to her doing that?

Jenny 1:00:47

He hits her.

Stace 1:00:48

He hits her.

Tammy 1:00:49

He's angry. Get over here, you!

Stace 1:00:52

He's frustrated. Right, exactly.

Jenny 1:00:54

He's trying to control it. This is where I want to go.

Stace 1:00:59

Yeah, and I love, but he's still blind. He can't see the quality of his heart; he can't see his intentions. He can't see where he is. But his donkey, who's known for being so stubborn, she can see something that he cannot see.

Tammy 1:01:13

You have an animal who's known as the dumbest of all animals,

Stace 1:01:16

and stubborn

Tammy 1:01:17

and stubborn of all animals can see more than a man who's a prophet.

Stace 1:01:21

That's right. Which tells us volumes about where his heart is what his intention is. So then the next thing that happens is, Jenny, do you want to just read 24 and 25.

Jenny 1:01:33

11:24 "But the angel of the Lord stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side."

25 "And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

Stace 1:01:51

I'll go ahead and read the next few.

26 "And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

27 "And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she fell down under Balaam; and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff."

So he's so angry; he finally says to her, If I had a sword, I would kill you for disobeying me and being so difficult lo these three times. Are you mocking me? he's asked her in verse 29. And she says, or finally her mouth is open. We have like in my mind, the miracle of all miracles. Tammy, do you want to read verse 29 and 30?

Tammy 1:02:35

Yes, oh, my gosh, we have to read 28 because the donkey's like, what did you hit me three times? okay.

28 "And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast mitten me these three times?"

Like, I'm just imagining, what are you doing? You can't, anyway and then 29.

29 "And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay."

Stace 1:03:03

So I love, this is the part of the story I've just like, I love. This is the moment where I see a change. She asked him straight up, Have I ever done anything disloyal to you? And he can't answer Yes. And so for

Tammy 1:03:17

It kind of humbles him in a moment. It reminds him of who he is.

Stace 1:03:21

Right. And maybe she kind of calls him out, essentially. And I think she's inspired to do it, obviously. And then the Lord opens his eyes and he sees the angel, and I love, Jenny, do you mind reading verse 31, please.

Jenny 1:03:36

31 "The Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head and fell flat on his face."

Stace 1:03:49

I think it's really important, this verse next to it, because this is where Balaam, his heart is changed. It's different, it's penitent, and he's humbled. And a sign of that ,evidence of that, and I think that's really important to mark that, that he falls, he bows down his head, in humility and he felt, he falls flat on his face. Tammy, will you read verse 32, please.

Tammy 1:04:10

32 "And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:"

Ooo, that's good.

Stace 1:04:21

Hey, I think that's also very, very important. What does it mean? What does that mean? thy way is perverse. I'm just going to ask you, what do you think that means?

Jenny 1:04:31

I think it means it's not Christ's way. Christ is the WAY and he's not following that Way. So it is perverse, or it is just off. It's wrong, it's not straight.

Tammy 1:04:45


Jenny 1:04:46

I love that, Tammy.

Tammy 1:04:46

He's leaning a little bit to the side, he's lean, yeah, he's off. He's off center.

Stace 1:04:51

That's, yes, all of that. And I love the word 'perverse'. It is, like I love what Jenny said that it's not Christ's way. Can someone look up section 88:35 for me? And while you're doing that, I'm gonna read verse 33,

33 "And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee ,and saved her alive,"

because she was being obedient. That idea that sometimes it's the lowliest of animals and things that that are so obedient to God's command, and not people who have more agency and think we know more.

34 "And Balaam said unto the angel of the Lord, I have sinned; [again, a sign of penitence,] "for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now, therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again."

And so he changed, he turns, he changes. He has a turn of heart or change of heart. Does anyone have that section 88? Thank you,

Tammy 1:05:50

D & C 88:35 "That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still."

Stace 1:06:05

I love that verse.

Tammy 1:06:07

Yep, I'm putting that next to it.

Stace 1:06:08

We're beat when we do not follow Christ, we become a law unto ourselves. Sometimes we're actually wanting to do that. We're trying to do that because it feels like Balaam; we want, we're seeking some honor. We're seeking something other than what Christ wants for us. And I think it could be anything. Jenny, do you just want to read the last words of the angel in verse 35?

Jenny 1:06:31


Stace 1:06:32

he commands Balaam to do.

35 "Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak..."

I love that; I think it's really important that that's where he lands. Well, for the rest of the story, we have this pattern of Balaam saying, I can't speak anything but the, but God's word. And Balak's saying, Hey, I'm going to pay you more money, more honor, just more of everything you want. And Balaam keeps saying to him, I can't do it. And then they build all these altars and they sacrifice all these animals and Balak said, So, what are you going to do about the children of Israel? How are you going to curse them? And he (Balaam) says, I can't curse them. And one of the things I love is, he actually ends up blessing instead of cursing Israel, three times. He blesses Israel, the children of Israel three times, and they're beautiful promises. And we do not have time to go over all of those, but it's real. He created poetry, all the blessings.

So finally Balak is so angry in chapter 24:10, let's just read, I'll read it fast.

24:10 "And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee to curse mine enemies, and behold, thou hast altogether blessed them these three times."

And then Balaam essentially is like, that's right in verse 13. I can't say anything. I can't go beyond what the God commands me. I can only speak what He asks me to speak. It's so beautiful. And then it's sort of like he's on a little roll from verse 15-19, where he just not only prophesies and blesses Israel, but he prophesies about Christ. And Tammy, I'm gonna have you read this verse, verse 17, please,

Tammy 1:08:19

24:17 "I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth."

Stace 1:08:34

So we know that sometimes prophets give double prophecies. There can be double meanings. What do you think, or who do you think the star out of Jacob is? And the scepter? What is what has been prophesying about here? Why are those words, why star in scepter capitalized do you think?

Jenny 1:08:53

It's definitely Christ.

Stace 1:08:55

Well, why do you say that?

Jenny 1:08:56

Because. The star was the sign not only in the Eastern hemisphere, but also in the Western hemisphere of the birth of Christ. And the Scepter is the symbol of His power and His reign.

Stace 1:09:11

And I love that the Scepter will rise out of Israel.

Tammy 1:09:14

But Stacy, you said something about a double. Why'd you say that?

Stace 1:09:17

Well, so because we have a woman in the scriptures, whose name translated is 'star'. And I believe that it's her, her name is Esther, and she is a star out of Jacob's people who comes out of the tribe of Benjamin. And that her name in Persian actually means star, and they give her a different Jewish or Hebrew name. But they make sure that you understand that her name is still Esther. And I love that, that we have this prophecy of not just the Savior, but of a woman in the Scripture who saved her people, people who came out of the loins of Jacob.

Tammy 1:09:56

That's a double prophecy.

Jenny 1:09:57

That's so cool.

Tammy 1:09:58

All because of Balaam.

Stace 1:09:59

So many things to say about all these scriptures and to say about this lesson, but I do like that we have this tremendous miracle. And we know that God, I mean, Christ Himself said, 'I can do all things, nothing's impossible to me.' And I think the story of the talking donkey is that, that He can use whatever means He has because it was the only means that was, that was open to the angel ,open to the Spirit. So He can use whatever means He can to deliver His message. Nothing is impossible with God, He can reach us in any way possible, even if it's talking to our animals, which I actually happen to love that part of it.

Tammy 1:10:37

I knew you would.

Stace 1:10:38

My animals communicate to me all day long. And I hope I'm reading their cues right. The last question I would only ask is that why would Moses put this story in here?

Tammy 1:10:49

Well, I think personally, for me, the one part, and that we - we have to go back and just make sure we read this verse because it is so powerful - is you've just done a beautiful job of creating this tapestry of Balaam and his life and his repentance and how he will only do what the Lord asked him to do. But then we see him become human one more time. And in Numbers 24:14, so he gets done blessing the children of Israel those three times. And then you read this to us when he, The King is so mad. He's like, why haven't you done what I've asked you to do? All you had to do was curse them this one time. And Balaam's like, I can't, I'm sorry, the Lord told me I couldn't.

And then I almost picture this in a movie for me, where he is standing firm; he's like, I will not say or speak a cursing against the children of Israel, because I've been told not to. But then look at verse 14. 'But what I will do is I'm gonna go ahead and tell you how to get to the heart of all the people so that you can defeat them. I just can't curse the people.' Like, he turns on a dime. And in verse 14, Balak says,

24:14 "And now, behold, I go unto my people: come therefore, and I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the latter days."

Like he sells his soul. And he's later, this is later referred to as "the Doctrine of Balaam" in the Book of Revelation 2:14, like, or the "Council of Balaam" is another one. Like, he's, his example, throughout Scripture is then used as a negative one. And that's everything we read was where his heart was. Ultimately, his heart was human. Like, for me, this is the story right here. Like, whose way are we following? I like how we've done this, which way am I leaning? Am I centered?

Stace 1:12:24

Yeah, there's another really good reference to that. It's the chapter where you find out that Balaam is slain when the Israelites go into the Moabites because he's living amongst the Moabite people. And he's, he's killed. But it's in chapter 31:16. And it just says, "Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the Council of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord." It's really clear that he really did change, have a change back, a change of heart. He, he really just couldn't get over the temptation.

Tammy 1:12:55

Yeah. Oh, Stace. Excellent job. Such a great discussion of one of the craziest stories of all the Old Testament. Well done. I'm so glad you got that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, okay,

Stace 1:13:07

Thank you for inviting me to do..

Tammy 1:13:08

So, how about that? Okay. In the next segment, then our last segment, we get to cover a story that oh my gosh, it's not in the Come Follow Me manual. And I would be remiss if we did not talk about five leaning hearts that leaned toward Jesus, and it is so beautiful. We'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:13:25


Tammy 1:13:32

Okay, we cannot end our discussion about the book of Numbers without learning this incredible story. It's not included, as I mentioned in the Come Follow me lesson, but for all my little Mandy Greens out there, for those of you who remember my Hebrew teacher, she said when she was a young girl, she went up to her dad, handed him the Book of Mormon and said, I'm done reading this, there's no women in Scripture. For all my little Mandy's out there. Here's a story that, quite frankly, is for all of us, but it's women in scripture. Let's turn to Numbers 27. And it's just quick and short and awesome. Jenny read for us Numbers 27:1.

Jenny 1:14:06

27:1 "Then came the daughters of Zelophehad, the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph: and these are the names of his daughters:" [I didn't know we had the names, we have the names. So they are:] "Malah, Noah, and Hogalah, and Milcha, and Tirzah."

Tammy 1:14:32

There it is. Okay, 5. Now, one of the cool things about the number five in Hebrew that we have learned is that it is a symbol of God's grace and protection. Now keep that in mind with the story about these 5 daughters. So we have the daughters of Zelophehad and they have a problem. And here's the problem. We just have to read the verses, so Stace, read for us verses 2 & 3.

Stace 1:14:53

27:2 "And they stood before Moses and before Eliezer the priest, and before the princes and all the congregation, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,

3 "Our Father, our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the company of them that gathered themselves together against the Lord in the company of Korah; but died in his own sin and had no sons."

Tammy 1:15:13

Pause there. So the saying, remember the story I told you earlier about how the high priest, there was a rebellion. And then the earth opened up and swallowed 'em and then closed. So they're trying to say, Our Father died in the wilderness, but he wasn't one of those unworthy people. Like they're trying to set the standard or set the stage for our dad as a good dad. He wasn't part of the rebellion, the rebellious ones, I thought that was interesting. And then he's at the very end, we hear, but he died and he doesn't have any sons. Now, why is this a problem? Ladies? You know the answer. Why is this a problem?

Stace 1:15:42

They have no right to inheritance. Cuz they're women.

Tammy 1:15:46

None. Exactly. Women had no rights. They have no inheritance. Now, just go back to verse 2. That first line, the first statement in verse 2, what does that tell us about these women?

Stace 1:15:56

Well, they were standing in front of the congregation and the Prophet in front of the tabernacle, that's a pretty big moment.

Tammy 1:16:04

Yes. And for women, for women to stand before the prophet, to have the chutzpah to do that, like, they knew there was a problem, we need to find a way to solve this. Let's take it to the Lord, let's take it to the Prophet. Because they're alone, they have nothing; their father is, is gone. And if you don't have a dad to provide for you, and they're not married, they're single, they are now destitute. And there's no one to provide for them. They know they need the land, they need God's grace, they need His protection. So they're asking for it.

4 "Why should the name of our father be done away from among his family, because he hath no son? Give unto us therefore a possession among the brethren of our father."

So Moses brought their cause before the Lord. Okay, well, let me see what the Lord thinks that we should do. Now, Jenny, will you read the answer in verse 7 and 8,

Jenny 1:16:54

8 "And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die and have no son, then you shall cause his inheritance to pass on to his daughter."

Tammy 1:17:05

Ah, ladies, what did these women do?

Amazing. Is that the first change we get that includes women in that direction, like in the inheritance,? That's amazing.

They created law, yes, outspoken women, women who believed, women who did it the right way. They helped create laws for themselves. It is just beautiful. And it's proof that the laws, Lord can change, He can make changes for His people. And He does. And He does at the behest of us who are coming before Him saying, We need Your grace, we need Your protection, help us. So next to verses 7-9, put this cross reference: Numbers 36:6-7, because the question arose, Okay, but what happens then if these daughters end up getting married? Then who does the lamb go to? Because the law says that it can only be in a man's hand, and the Lord's like, ;Very good point.'

So the law will still exist, that it will go to their husbands. But how great is this what the Lord says about it? This to me just shows how much really truly God is our Father, and He loves His daughters. And so verses 6 & 7. Stace, will you read those for us in Numbers chapter 36.

Stace 1:18:17

36:6 "This is a thing which the Lord doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry."

7 "So shall not the inheritance of the children of Israel remove from tribe to tribe; for every one of the children of Israel shall keep himself to the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers."

Tammy 1:18:39

How did He take care of them in that verse?

Jenny 1:18:41

Making sure they married well, they got their inheritance in the land that was assigned to their tribe.

Stace 1:18:49

They also stayed within the family. I mean, in verse 11, it lists those daughters again and says that they were married unto their father's brothers' sons. So they're cousins, and which is a thing in the Old Testament

Tammy 1:19:01

Totally was, so He had a provision for them. Well, here's what the daughters of Zelophehad are going to do. But I think it's so beautiful where He says, "Let them marry whom they think best, like you didn't get that choice really back then. Marriages were arranged, however that looked. And now here's the Lord saying, 'No, they get to marry who they think is best. Just keep it within the family so that we can keep the inheritance in the family.' And I just think it's beautiful how a loving Father is like, 'Let's take care of these daughters because their dad isn't here. But I'll be the stand-in.'

Stace 1:19:30

Oh, I love that.

Jenny 1:19:32

You know, I also love that they were hopeful, like that they didn't start, they believed that they would be heard. They believed that Moses would hear Him and he does. I think that's another evidence of his meekness, but they were trusting. They trusted God, they trusted the Prophet. They trusted that people would look out for them, and they will and consequently, the people did. The prophet, the Lord did hear 'em. I love that.

Tammy 1:19:57

Yep, strong women doing amazing things. And then we love to just go back to that quote by President Nelson, "We need strong women." And we do. We need women who are educated, we need women who are wise, we need women who are willing, all these words that we've talked about for the last couple of weeks. We need women who trust, we need women. And this is a beautiful example of that. Women make changes, and that's what the Lord's just needing us to do. So those of you out there who are hearing this, don't give up, keep leaning towards the Lord. Let Him be the way because He is our way. And I think that is the message we just kept hearing today as we've talked about all of this. We just have to finish this segment and the whole episode with this final quote then. We just talked about the daughters of Zelophehad. We talked about trusting the Lord.

And Jenny, I want you to read this because it is by your woman Eliza R snow. And it is a poem that she wrote that is, the one of the lines to the hymn "How Great the Wisdom and the Love".

Jenny 1:20:49

"By strict obedience Jesus won The prize with glory rife: "Thy will, O God, not mine be done," Adorned his mortal life."

Tammy 1:20:59

Thank you. And I think that's the ultimate trust in God. Thy will, O Lord, be done. And I think that that's kind of the message of this whole episode today is that truly because of strict obedience, we will win the prize of glory rife. What does that mean - rife?

Jenny 1:21:17

filled with ?

Tammy 1:21:18

Oh, the prize of glory, filled with glory. I can't think of anything better than that. Adorned His, I think it's the "adorned his mortal life," find something we have to wait for. Like we can have it now, through strict obedience, through being centered in Christ and knowing that He is the WAY and keeping our eye on Him. Wow! So we just want to end with that quote, I want you to think about everything we've studied today. Because that's the end of our episode. So ladies, think what your takeaway is, and we're done.

Jenny 1:21:46

I loved talking about how Christ is the serpent; how He both brings us into the mortal experience with strife and with noxious weeds and briars and snakes. But He also provides the way that if we look to Him, we can be healed; that we need to stop looking at the past or looking behind us and look forward.

Tammy 1:22:14

Excellent one, Jenny, I like that.

Stace 1:22:16

Yeah, I do, too. It's such a hopeful message. I really like Jenny's idea of this idea of the wrath of God, this kindling and fire, before I in how I imagine it or how I frame it is before He gives us the opportunity to have a change of heart. He's trying to, like the angel in front of the donkey. He's trying to stop us from hurting ourselves. You know, He's trying to prohibit us from moving down a path that doesn't lead to happiness, to our own happiness. He's always thinking about us. So that idea that those fiery flying serpents are these afflictions, these plagues, whatever they are, they're to arrest us in our path in the wrong direction. To regroup and turn ourselves to Him. And I love the idea, the fire, that's a sacred place to repent, to come to yourself, to come to Christ

Jenny 1:23:12

and to be refined

Stace 1:23:14

to be refined, yeah, like to choose to be refined, to let those experiences refine us. They are an opportunity from Christ. I love that.

Tammy 1:23:22

I think my overall takeaway for today is how we started. I really appreciated our discussion on how we trust people and how we can trust the Lord. And gosh, Stace, when you mentioned that idea, when you reframed for me what the children of Israel were experiencing. And how they had just been under bondage, and that definitely plays into their inability to trust is because they had had taskmasters over them. And the one person they should have trusted treated them terribly. And, boy, if that doesn't resonate with so many of us, as people who have trust issues. And for me today, as I have listened to this, it just makes me think about how I trust the Lord. And Jenny, I really appreciated your vulnerability, and how you were just honest about how it's hard to trust the Lord.

So ladies, you set the tone perfectly for this lesson. So thank you, ladies. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're the best. I love you guys.

Stace 1:24:15

Love you too. Bye. Yeah.

We would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. Again, it's such a great place to ask questions and read questions that people ask. I can't believe how much we learn from each other. It's really cool. And then at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we do a post asking for your big takeaway. So, comment on the post that relates to this lesson and just let me know what you've learned. We all read on each other's and it's just really cool. I love this community.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS on Monday and it's not a bad idea to go there because that's where we're going to have the links to all the references and a complete transcript of this discussion, as well as the gluons that you're gonna want to put in your scriptures.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Desert Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our fantastic study group participants were Jenny Reeder and Stace Christiansen. And you can find more information about these friends at LDS on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Erica free and me. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We will see you next week and you better remember after today that: you really are God's favorite!