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3: The Fall of Adam and Eve (Genesis 3–4; Moses 4–5)

Fri Jan 07 18:13:29 EST 2022
Episode 3

Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel—you probably think you know their stories. They are, after all, the very first mortals mentioned in the Bible. But what if we were to tell you that there’s more to these pivotal figures in the Old Testament than you may have thought? In this week’s discussion, we’ll dig into Genesis 3–4 and Moses 4–5 to uncover priceless truths we may have misunderstood about Adam and Eve and their children.

Segment 1


Genesis 2:18, 23–24


Hebrew: Help meet = Ezer Kenegdow

Ezer = Helper from root azar = Christlike help, succor

Kinegedo = Ke = like or as

Neged = Like in front of, in sight of, opposite to

Hebrew: Eve = Hava or life. Also one of Christ’s names in the Hebrew.

Cleave = They were one. This is in terms of kinship more than physical intimacy. A covenant was made, the marriage covenant, through which a kinship was formed. As Frank Moore Cross wrote, this kinship meant that you were now taken care of by the head of this family or head kinsman. The head kinsman would avenge the blood of a fellow kinsman, redeem property sold by a poor kinsman, redeem kinsman sold into debt or slavery, marry the widow of a brother or near kinsman (Frank Moore Cross, From Epic to Cannon: History and Literature in Ancient Israel, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1998).


“Eve is one of the most misunderstood and criticized women in history” (Camille Fronk Olson, Women of the Old Testament, Deseret Book).

“Collectively and individually we would be better served if the correct meaning of our English term helpmeet were well understood and incorporated into our writing, thinking, and speaking. If mankind historically had accepted this more careful and correct interpretation, perhaps attitudes, laws, and customs would be different, and the relationships that God intended between men and women, between husband and wife, between women and society would function more easily.

“The potential effect on women who gain an accurate understanding of who Eve is—and who she has always been—is difficult to overestimate (Beverly Campbell, Eve and the Choice Made in Eden, Desert Book).

Segment 2


Moses 4:1–4, 5

Moses 1:22

Isaiah 14:12

Doctrine and Covenants 76:25–27


Hebrew: Satan = Superhuman adversary of God or accuser

Lucifer = Light bearer

Hebrew: Subtle = Crafty, shrewd, or sensible


“It was through pride that the devil became the devil” (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Harper Collins; 1980, 123).

“. . . from the beginning the true Messiah was legitimately represented by the image of the serpent, but that the symbol was usurped and perverted by the quintessential false messiah, Satan.

“Evidence from all sources (scriptural, cultural, historical, and prophetic) leads us to believe that the serpent symbol appeared first in the Garden of Eden when Satan adopted the form of a snake, which was intended to point to the true Messiah. Over time, its true meaning became

corrupted not only as it became established through natural observation—the

snake shedding its skin and so on—but also as the symbol passed through many

cultures down through the ages. The result, of course, was the appearance of

the dual nature of serpent symbolism in the various civilizations of the Near

East and elsewhere.

“It was the late Spencer Palmer of Brigham Young University who observed that a theory of corruption and cultural diffusion is the most compelling explanation for the many resemblances to the pure gospel found in various religious traditions around the world.43 This certainly seems to be the case regarding the powerful and pervasive symbol of the serpent in the ancient world. Enough glimpses and echoes of the divinely intended meaning of the serpent symbol exist to enable us to make significant connections to Christ. Of this, the Book of Mormon is a premier witness and source” (Andrew C. Skinner, “Serpent Symbols and Salvation in the Ancient Near East and the Book of Mormon,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Vol. 10, number 2, article 8, July 31, 2001).

Segment 3


Moses 4:10–12, 28

Genesis 3:6

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand ayears, and a thousand years as one day (2 Peter 3:8).


“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth” (Andrew Skinner quoting Brigham Young, “The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book,” Ensign, March 1997).

“It is no wonder, then, that we seek to understand Adam’s role in the Fall and the nature of the consequences that came from eating the forbidden fruit. If we correctly understand the role of Adam and Eve, we will realize that those who have labeled them sinners responsible for the universal depravity of the human family are misguided. The truth is that Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality, a step essential to our eternal progress” (“Chapter 8: The Fall,” Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual,

Segment 4


Moses 4:20–25

Genesis 3:16


Perdition = Lost

Enmity = Equal hatred

Hebrew: Multiply = Repetition

Hebrew: Sorrow = Pain or toil or labor

Hebrew: Rule over = Rule with


“Satan is symbolically informed that he will not even have the privilege of earth life that even cattle and beasts have” (Elis T. Rasmussen, Old Testament Commentary, Deseret Book, 1993).

“In life, the fallen world would require her to do painful things over and over again” (Camille Fronk Olson, Women of the Old Testament, Deseret Book, 2009, 16).

Segment 5


Moses 4:13, 27, 29, 31

Moses 5:4, 5, 9–11

Genesis 3:21

2 Nephi 4:33


Hebrew: Coats of skins = Coats of light

Skin-עוֹר or (Ayin)

Light-אוֹר or (Aleph)

Hebrew: Kafar = Covering

Endo = Endow, to put on

Hebrew: Kateph = Shoulder, shoulder blade, side. Similar to the same word for the priestly garments spoken of in Exodus.

Hebrew: Labash = To put on clothes

Filled = Sanctified

Article: Stephen D. Ricks, Chapter 24: “The Garment of Adam in Jewish, Muslim, and Christian Tradition,”

Segment 6


Moses 5:13, 16–18, 20–21, 23, 32, 34, 37

Doctrine and Covenants 82:19

2 Nephi 28:8

4 Nephi 1:4


Hebrew: Cain = To acquire

Hebrew: Hearken = To listen and obey

Hebrew: Rule over = Rule with

First fruits = Symbolic of Christ and His sacrifice


“All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly” (Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from Birmingham Jail: Martin Luther King Jr.'s Letter from Birmingham Jail and the Struggle That Changed a Nation).

Link: Dallin H. Oaks, “’My Brother’s Keeper,’” October 1986 general conference

Additional Resources:

Book: Melinda Wheelwright Brown, Eve and Adam: Discovering the Beautiful Balance

Podcast: All In: “Melinda Wheelwright Brown: How Understanding Eve Could Change the World”

Tammy 0:00

Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, you think you know their stories? Well, I did too, until I studied it in Hebrew. And I can't wait to show you what I and my two special guests have learned about these pivotal characters in the Old Testament. We are studying Genesis, chapters 3-4, and Moses, chapters 4-5, and it's going to be sensational.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Okay, so if you're new to our study group, I just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link that's in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my friend Kimberly Willey-Panter and her husband - get this - they listen in the wee early hours of the morning, at 4am as they're on their way to catch their rides to work. So hi, friends. Good morning.

Now another awesome thing about our study groups, my favorite, is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always gonna be a little different. And today is different with a capital D. Because we have Jalyn Peterson, who we know. Hi, Jalyn, we love you!

Jalyn Peterson 1:06

Hello. How are you? Happy to be back.

Tammy 1:08

Oh, coming to us live from Tennessee.

Jalyn Peterson 1:11

Uh huh. Love it, 71 degrees today on December 1; you know that's my dream.

Tammy 1:16

It's your dream. And then we have invited Melinda Wheelwright Brown. She is the author of a new book called Eve and Adam, Discovering the Beautiful Balance. And you guys, it is a beautiful book. It is so good. So Melinda, hi, welcome.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:31

Hi. Thank you for having me. So glad to be here.

Tammy 1:34

Wow. We met over the course of the year just through the podcast and exchanging emails and talking to each other. And so when this came up, I'm like, of course it has to be Melinda. And I love this because last week we had Don Parry, who kind of introduced us to Eve and taught us some really incredible things. I don't know about any of you, but I'm still reeling from that episode. Then I did say to Don, though, You can't touch a couple of things, because we're going to let Melinda teach us that. And so we're so excited to have you here with us today.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

Oh, thank you. That's awesome.

And a fun side note: Melinda loves candy just as much as I do.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 2:08

I do. I have a sweet tooth.

Tammy 2:10

She has a candy drawer in her office. Ha, ha, I love that.

Jalyn Peterson 2:13

As every good woman should.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 2:15


Tammy 2:15

I need a new desk. Yes. I need a desk with a drawer then, dang it. Well, if you'd like to see pictures and know more information about my guests, you can find those in our show notes which are at Okay, there is just so much material to cover in this episode. Wouldn't you guys agree?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 2:31

Yes, absolutely. Hours worth, hours and hours.

Tammy 2:34

Hours! Now, Melinda, you know this stuff. But I want to know, Jalyn, when you saw what we were covering, what did you think?

Jalyn Peterson 2:40

Oh, I'll tell you what. It's kind of like Yeah, yeah, that story again,

Tammy 2:48

Right? I've heard that story before.

Jalyn Peterson 2:51

And it's fascinating, though, because I've had a lot of different conversations with people who are not so keen on the church anymore. And some are kind of their hiccups with the story. And I so appreciated the opportunity to listen to Melinda's book, because it really cleared up some stuff in my mind. Because like you mentioned, there's so many different accounts of this story. And we all kind of place it over-importance on things that really shouldn't be made that big of a deal about.

Tammy 3:22

You know what, and Jalyn, I just have to say, I really appreciate your honesty. And I know you and those who you mentioned, are not alone. I've even had some questions myself, like, exactly what is the wording here? How does this fit into the story? So I'm really hoping that we can clear some of that up for all of our listeners today as it pertains to the story of Adam and Eve. I think we can.

Well, alright then let's do this. So friends, grab your scriptures, your journal, your marking pens and pencils, and let's dig in. In your family life or your work life or even in church, have you ever felt like you were misunderstood? Or criticized?

Jalyn Peterson 3:57

Oh, for sure.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 3:58


Tammy 3:58

What does it feel like? Regularly Melinda? Tell me about,

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 4:02

Well, I mean, it's well, it's just I think the nature of human relationships, and communication, and the limits of language. I just think it's so difficult to really truly understand what we're trying to express to one another because we all articulate things differently. And it doesn't, it gets lost in translation so easily.

And so, for me personally, I feel like I worry constantly about sticking my foot in my mouth, about saying it in a way that comes across wrong. And so one of the things I regularly do is pray that I'll be blessed with the gift of the tongue of angels, which is kind of a scriptural term. For a long time I wondered what that meant. And then I realized, you know, angels must just know the right thing to say. I just want to know the right thing to say. And so I really pray for that a lot. And I have felt on many occasions that that prayer was answered and I'm always so grateful when I can find the right word that speaks what's in my heart correctly.

Tammy 5:07

Yeah. Oh, I like that Melinda.

Jalyn Peterson 5:10

It's so funny you bring that up because this is one of my, I had, I mean, really a huge part of my testimony of the Atonement is based - oh, and I get teary just even thinking about it - is based on that feeling alone. I was the middle daughter, you know, so sometimes you always felt like - I hope family doesn't listen to this - but I always kind of felt misunderstood. Because nothing bugs me more if someone like thinks I'm lying, or that I said something I didn't say.

And then, all of a sudden, it came to me one day like, that was Christ's whole time here on Earth. It was His whole time on earth of him going like, no, I know the truth, and not being able to convey it to the people who were believers and he's the person who understands that feeling the best. That's what the atonement's for is, we're all going to be misunderstood and misread because of human nature, but the atonement, it helps me let that go. It helps me just feel like, it's alright. Christ, Christ has got that one. He did that one.

Tammy 6:13

Thank you for sharing that, Jalyn. In fact, my whole purpose for even asking that question and getting us into that space of being misunderstood, is because author and scholar Camille Fronk Olson said this about someone that we are going to study today. Listen to this cool quote. This person we're going to talk about "was one of the most misunderstood and criticized women in history." So who are we talking about right now?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 6:36

Eve, definitely. Absolutely.

Tammy 6:38

Yeah. Let's turn to Genesis chapter 2, and we're going to look at verse 18. And then verse 20. And both of these verses have two words in common. So Jalyn, will you read verse 18, and then Melinda, will you read verse 20. And tell me what two words, important two words these verses have in common?

Jalyn Peterson 6:56

Genesis 2:18: "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.”

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 7:03

20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

Tammy 7:14

Okay, what's the words?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 7:16

Help meet

Tammy 7:16

So, what do we have? We have two words. But I love how the word help meet in Hebrew is "EZER KENEGDO". And I'm going to give the breakdown, and then I'm going to let Melinda tell us about these. But we have the word EZER, which is first, and that means "helper". And what's so interesting is this word is used to describe the kind of help that the Savior gives, this is so cool. It's actually closer to the word succor, which means to drop everything and to run to the aid of someone in need. How cool is that? Then we have KE. And then we have NEGDO. And KE, it is a word you put in Hebrew, as a word before something and it means "like" or "as". And then NEGDO comes from the verb NEGED, which means "in front of", or "opposite to". So the word NEGED in Hebrew means "balanced". It's kind of like scales that are beautifully balanced, they are neged, they are even, they are equal.

Jalyn Peterson 7:17

So it literally means "first, like someone in front or someone like, opposite."

Tammy 7:29

Mm hmm. That is like or as the person it's with. And it's a helper. So I thought this is so interesting that we have this word where forever, what have we always assumed help meet meant?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 8:33

Well, sadly, a lot of people think it means like a sidekick, or assistant. And that's not a good translation at all. EZER, the thing that I love about it is it really means to help and to save. But like you said, the succor, that it connects so closely with Jesus Christ, and every time it's used throughout the Old Testament, it's talking about divine saving, Christ-like saving, not just a helper. So that's a huge difference there.

Tammy 9:06

I'm so glad you said that. Because in fact that word EZER is only used to describe God-like help. And then if that's it, it's never used to describe another human or a person in the Bible.

Jalyn Peterson 9:18

Oh, wow!

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 9:18

it's an enormously honorific title for Eve. And it's amazing to me and fascinating that her Hebrew name, Hava, means life, which is also one of Christ's names. So we have two beautiful examples of how much she is a type of Christ. And that is huge. That is huge. And I love that we even have a couple of hymns that mention the idea of a helper being like Christ. If you think about "Let Us All Press On", and "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God", both of them say that God, our helper will ever be near". And to me, those are such good reminders that this is a really noble title. For Eve, and that counterpart portion, the connector, like you said, is so crucial because it's showing this balanced interdependence between them that they're very much equal and necessary and fitted together perfectly, like puzzle pieces. It's just perfect. So it's a beautiful term.

Tammy 10:20

And I love how you just said 'the puzzle piece', because that's exactly what this word means. It means they fit together, like no one is greater than the other; they are perfectly balanced. And we have to read this quote by Beverly Campbell, because the work she did on the book, <The choice made in Eden>, which you reference several times in your book, Melinda is awesome. And here's what she had to say about the term help meet. Jalyn, will you read this for us, and then I have a question for you, Jalyn.

Jalyn Peterson 10:45

Sure. "Collectively, and individually, we would be better served if the correct meaning of our English term help meet, were well-understood and incorporated into our writing, thinking, and speaking. If mankind historically had accepted this more careful and correct interpretation, perhaps attitudes, laws, and customs would be different. And the relationships that God intended between men and women, between husband and wife, between women and society would function more easily." Whoa, that's a powerful statement. Right?

Tammy 11:15

Right? In fact, and then read the last part of the quote.

Jalyn Peterson 11:18

"The potential effect on women who gain an accurate understanding of who Eve is, and who she has always been is difficult to overestimate."

Tammy 11:28

Poof. So I want to know, Jalyn, how does knowing this about Eve and help meet, has it changed your perspective or your viewpoint or your thoughts?

Jalyn Peterson 11:36

That's a lot to kind of digest. Because that's so powerful to be like, if we really had understood that term, would we be living in such a patriarchal society? Like, that's a huge concept to kind of think about and ponder, but the hard thing about scriptures to me, is that we do not have enough examples of women. So it's hard to place yourself into the gospel, especially when you are not married to a priesthood holder. It's different access to priesthood power. But to understand that that divine help meet, like a divine saving power, that's angelic. That's a calling that is straight from God. Not just a sidekick, not just, Here, I'm here to help you get out of this garden, but that she was really that big of a presence is, I'm awestruck honestly, I'm a little awestruck.

Tammy 12:38

Awestruck. I have to totally agree. That is an excellent word to describe how a lot of us are feeling after that quote, I mean, one segment in you guys, and we have learned so much. I cannot wait, okay, I'm dying. I can't even wait to see what else is in this episode. And having Melinda here will add so much to what we learn. And listen. Sure, teachers can teach, I get that, but it's the Holy Ghost who helps us learn. So let's move on. And let's see what we can learn today.

I want us to go to verse 23. Because now that we've just had this discussion about the quality of Adam and Eve and the divine role that Eve has in all of this, I like it in Genesis chapter 2, verse 23, it says,

23 "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones ,and flesh of my flesh" and shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. And then verse 24,

24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Highlight verse 24. What I love about this, and we talked about this with Don Perry last week, is that that idea has nothing to do with intimacy or sexuality. According to a scholar, Frank Moore Cross, he believes this is truly the marriage covenant. This is where they enter into a kinship. One of the most important things that we need to understand is that the Old Testament is rich in this culture of kin, or tribe. And so families are set up in these groups of 'this is my kin'.

And so when you join a family through marriage, you aren't just given your tent and your, you know, your wedding reception with your eclair and said, “Okay, go start your family.” You actually have a portion of a tent that's added on to the already existing tent and you're going to live with that family; you're going to be part of that kin or that tribe. And the head over that tribe is the kinsman. He is the head kinsmen over everyone. And he'll do amazing things for you. This head kinsman will protect you, he'll pay your debts. And we're going to talk a ton more about this in a couple of weeks when we talk about Abraham. Well, I just wanted you to kind of be thinking about this idea of kinship and tribal affiliation, because it's going to come up a ton in Old Testament and it starts right here with Adam and Eve.

Which is the couple.

Yep, it's the couple.

Jalyn Peterson 14:54

Not just the man, it's the couple together.

Tammy 14:57

Yep. And they will take care of you. And so that's where we get the son-in-law, you become kinship-in-law when you marry into the family. It is serious, you're going to be taken care of. And so it starts right here, this kinship, this help meet relationship. There's so many wonderful things that come by virtue of this kinship. And now Adam and Eve have this relationship, this law of kinship with each other. And so I just, I love this because in the next segment, we are going to explore some more significance about the words help meet as it pertains to Genesis and then Moses. And we're going to talk about the narrative of our first parents.

Segment 2 15:33

Tammy 15:39

I want to talk about names for a minute. And I loved so much, Melinda, when you sent an email to me and you said, in your email that you go by Melinda, but to your friends, you're Mindy. Like you have a bit of a name change. I'm the same way. To bill collectors, I'm Tamara. And to family, I'm Tammy, family and friends. Right? Have you guys, have you ever changed your name? Jalyn, have you always been Jalyn?

Jalyn Peterson 16:02

Always been Jalyn.

Tammy 16:03

Always been. Do you know anyone who's ever changed their name before?

Jalyn Peterson 16:07

I've seen it in court happen.

Tammy 16:09

Oh, yeah. As a lawyer. What does that mean for the person when they change their name? Why, why is it so important to change it? What does it do?

Jalyn Peterson 16:15

Well it's a different identity. You're kind of assuming a different identity at that point.

Tammy 16:21

Perfect. Okay, then we have to just talk about this because here's what we're going to do. Let's go to Moses chapter 4. Now remember, in our very first episode, we learned that there have been very specific verses that have been left out of Genesis. And we talked about that with Tamu and Zanda, it was so powerful. But before we talk about that, we need to go to Moses chapter 4, verse 1, and I want us to look for this. All the times he uses the pronouns I or me, I want you to mark and then I want you to tell me what it was that he demanded of Heavenly Father. Melinda, will you read verse 1 for us.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 16:53

Sure, okay. It says,

1 "And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning. And he came before me saying---Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor."

Tammy 17:20

Okay, what did he first demand of Heavenly Father?

Jalyn Peterson 17:23

He wants the honor.

Tammy 17:26

Now, how many times did you mark I or me?

Jalyn Peterson 17:29


Tammy 17:30


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 17:31


Jalyn Peterson 17:31

Oh, more than that?

Tammy 17:34

So what can we learn from Satan right now, his repeated use of I and Me in this verse?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 17:40

It's just all about him. He's just so self-centered and egotistical. It's also so interesting that he says, "Surely I will do it", because he couldn't do that, what he was saying. Truly he would not!

Tammy 17:56

Oh, that's good. Hold, please. Yeah, I like that. Okay. I like how C.S. Lewis said, "It was through pride that the devil became the devil." It was through pride that he became Satan. Let's find out what his name was before it was Satan, though. So we're going to go to a couple places. There's some cross references you can put next to verse one. We have Isaiah chapter 14, verse 12. Jalyn, will you go there for us? And Melinda, will you go to Doctrine and Covenants section 76. We're going to look at these different verses that tell us about who Satan was before he was Satan. So that's Isaiah, chapter 14, verse 12. And then section 76, verses 25 to 27. Melinda. And Jalyn, when you get Isaiah will you read that for us.

Jalyn Peterson 18:41

12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Tammy 18:50

Okay, Jalyn, what was his name?

Jalyn Peterson 18:52


Tammy 18:53

And what did it describe him as?

Jalyn Peterson 18:55

Son of the Morning.

Tammy 18:56

Wow, so much light involved, right? K, now look what it says about him in Section 76, verses 25 to 27. Go ahead, Melinda.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 19:05


25 "And this we saw also, and bear record that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son.

26 "And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him---he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 "And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning."

Tammy 19:34

Like, look at these descriptions of him. His name was Lucifer first. So go back to Moses chapter four and let's look at his rebellion in verse 3 that Melinda read about, and I'll read verse three.

3 "Wherefore, because" (highlight that word because) "wherefore, because that Satan" (or Lucifer at the time), "rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord had given him," (That was so interesting - even Satan, he had the agency), "and also, that I should give unto him my own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down.

And as a result, then now I love this in verse four,

4 "And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, ..."

And now listen, the reason the name Satan is used here, and not Lucifer, is because Moses already knows him as Satan from the previous experience in chapter 1 that we talked about with Tamu and Zandra. He's no longer Lucifer, son of the morning. But instead now he is Satan, which in Hebrew, I thought was interesting, means "the superhuman adversary of God", or "the accuser". So kind of keep that in mind as we read these verses. It's just fascinating to me that Jalyn, you told us he was son of the morning. And as Satan, he's now going to become the Prince of Darkness. That will be a name that he'll be known by, this adversary, who is the father of all lies. He will even portray himself as an angel of light, which we've read about in 2 Nephi chapter 9, verse 9. And what does that tell us by him getting the title, "father of lies"?

Jalyn Peterson 21:07

Opposition in all things is in the very degree. So as great as it is, is as wicked as it is. And it's a "son of the morning" who's gone all the way to "the father of lies". I do find it interesting, though. Maybe you have something to say about this. So the Lord God gave him agency, right? But then when it came to casting him out, He says that I should give unto him, so I gave him agency and saying that I should also give him My own power, but it was by the power of Jesus Christ I caused that he should be cast down. Why didn't God just cast him down? Why do you think He did it through Jesus Christ, by the power of a son?

Tammy 21:53

Melinda, any thoughts?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 21:55

Well, because I think that Heavenly Father always works through His Son. And Christ's Atonement is so infinite, I think sometimes we think of it as from mortality forward into that half of eternity. But we forget that it goes from mortality backwards as well, that it was always from the very foundations of the earth. He was the Savior. So even then, He was acting as the Savior role. He worked in such tight unison, and unity with the Father, that He did those things as the Father directed. unitedly.

Tammy 22:36

Thank you, Melinda. And you know, it reminds me when you said united, because going back to Moses, chapter one, verse one, it wasn't until verse 21, that Moses was able to cast Satan out of his presence by calling upon Jesus Christ. And so in verse 22, it says, In the name of the only begotten depart, hence Satan. I love how Zander pointed this out two weeks ago when she said, there's a unified power there with man and Christ and being able to do that. And so it makes perfect sense here that it would be Jesus Christ power that would cast him out. So I love that you just brought that unity. And thank you, Melinda, excellent. Yeah, great question.

Okay, so then look back at verse 4 then, because I want you to tell me what tactics of Satan is the Lord warning us about then, in this verse? So I'm going to read verse 45. I want you guys to underline the tactics. Here we go. And we're just going to pick up where I ended after "the father of all lies"

4 " deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as with not hearken unto my voice." What are his tactics?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 23:40

A liar, he's the deceiver. He's trying to blind us or block our view or deflect our view away from Christ and lead us away. Anybody who's not hearkening to Christ, watch out because he's working on all sides. So if we lose our focus, we're in danger.

Tammy 24:01

Absolutely. What strikes you about that verse Jalyn?

Jalyn Peterson 24:05

I mean, all of that. But more like in verse 5, although I have a lot of questions about this, but, more subtle. So, I mean he's saying the serpent was more subtle, which, that's Satan. But it's that subtlety of it that really, to me is the most pernicious part of the whole thing. The lies, the deceiving, the blind, and it's by degrees, right, it's subtly.

Tammy 24:32

I love that you just brought that verse up, because Melinda, you put this in your book, which I loved. And we have this in our show notes so you can go read the whole article by Andrew Skinner. But when you said that he was more subtle, that the serpent was more subtle, it is amazing that Satan had the audacity to come in the form of a snake, because the serpent is a symbol of Jesus Christ. So talk about subtle.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 24:57

Yeah, there's this really tight connection, that that was a sacred symbol. And going back to what you had said about his name Lucifer, where we know that that means 'light bearer'. And then like you mentioned from Nephi, where it talks about that he came deceiving them as an angel of light. And that's something that we don't have as many places as if we look a little beyond our canon. We see that lots more in the apocryphal writings and these other things, this notion that he was really deceptive in trying to pass himself off as a trustworthy source. And you think about it, there they are in the garden; they had only experienced trustworthy sources. They have no idea that there even could be somebody who could come along and be sneaky and beguiling.

Tammy 25:47

Yeah. Or who would like, yeah, why would that be

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 25:50

Yeah, that this was so foreign. This was like truly their first learning experience through contraries and opposites. And so it was a big jump in their education.

Tammy 26:04

Definitely. So I, okay, I just looked up the word subtle, in Genesis chapter 3, verse 1 on my favorite app, Bible Hub. And the word subtle in the Hebrew Bible is actually a little bit differently translated. So when the translators were changing from Hebrew to English, the best word they came up with was 'subtle', but listen to this. The Hebrew word for subtle actually means crafty, shrewd, or sensible. Okay, how great is that? Because now I'm like, Oh, it totally made sense to Adam and Eve, that the snake was in the garden, right? That was a sensible thing that Satan did. I guess I never considered Satan to be sensible. He's very sensible and crafty. That is crazy to me.

I've loved this discussion, because I want us to stop and just kind of think about this for a minute, like, what has Satan, what does he have the audacity to tell us on a daily basis? How is he subtle with us? How is he trying to blind us and captivate us and deceive us? Because, boy, if he is the father of all wise, he's got all sorts of lies to tell. And he is, he is not kind and he does not let up. I had a discussion about that with a friend today because I said, Do you think Satan ever says to his minions, Hey, guys, I think we should go easy on the kids right now, because I think they're a little overwhelmed. I think sometimes we do that as leaders like, we don't really want to overwhelm the youth. Yeah, we do. Satan's not letting up. Like, let's come on, overwhelm, maybe. Have, I don't know, I just, that was kind of my soapbox today cuz I had a conversation about that. And Satan is not letting up. He has zero compassion. And he's subtle. Oh, he's the worst.

Jalyn Peterson 27:41

Well, so subtle, in that all those thoughts that you've absorbed, it's in your own voice in your head. You know what I mean? You're, you're telling yourself, you're not good enough. You're not worthy. You're not. You're not. You're not. You're not. And that's because we've picked up on that; it's been so subtle, you know, for generations, that now it's our own voice telling us that, which is so contrary to our divine nature. It's so contrary to who we really are. And that's hard to remember when those thoughts are just on a loop for, I would say, almost every woman.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 28:20

Yeah, great

Jalyn Peterson 28:22


Tammy 28:23

Hold on. I got to just write that down. What you just said Jalyn? Because I'm thinking right now, it is sensible to be in our voice. Therefore, it must be true, right? Oh, my gosh, no wonder. We have those thoughts in our own voice. And then we believe that that is sensible. For those of you listening, take a minute and just, I want you to write down the lies. Like what has Satan gotten you with? What are his subtleties with you? It's important for us to recognize those. And maybe for some of us, this is our first like, I love how you said, Melinda, that that was their first real lesson, their first like, school of hard knocks. And maybe that is for all of us when you said that, Jalyn: a lot of us are like, What, wait, you're right. It isn't our own voice. So write those down so you can be aware of them. Because we are going to now learn in the next segment about the very first carefully crafted lie that Satan had told Adam and Eve.

Segment 3 29:14

Tammy 29:19

Alright, so I don't know if you guys ever played this growing up, the fun game "Truths and a Lie". Did ya ever play that in Young Womens?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 29:26


Jalyn Peterson 29:27

Not in Young Women's, it’s a college game.

Tammy 29:30

A college game, sure, sure. I came up with my own. Here's my two truths and a lie. What you do is you have to say two things that are truthful about you and one that's a lie, and your friends have to guess which one is the lie. Okay, here we go. These three things are number one, I've never been to Hawaii. Number two, cheese is my favorite. And number three, I love spinach.

Jalyn Peterson 29:51

And we're guessing what the lie is.

Tammy 29:52


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 29:54

I hope you've been to Hawaii but I also hope that you really love cheese because,

Jalyn Peterson 29:58

Well, cheese is God's way of saying everything's gonna be okay.

Tammy 30:01

Yeah, so cheese is the truth, for sure.

Jalyn Peterson 30:03

Yeah, cheese is on. Okay then.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 30:05

Hmm spinach. You must not like spinach.

Jalyn Peterson 30:08

I'm gonna go Hawaii. She's gonna go spinach, so I'll go Hawaii.

Tammy 30:11

It's Hawaii - I just love spinach so much. The canned spinach the, I grew up on in the 70's. It's disgusting, but I loved it.

Jalyn Peterson 30:22

I haven't had canned spinach since school lunch.

Tammy 30:24

Thank you. Me neither. But I was like, I'm like at lunch, “You gonna eat that?” I was that kid!

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 30:30


Jalyn Peterson 30:31

You were gonna eat that! (laughter)

Tammy 30:33

Can I have your roll and your spinach?

Jalyn Peterson 30:36

Way to win friends and influence people in the lunchroom, ya nerd.

Tammy 30:40

I totally was.

Jalyn Peterson 30:42

They're like, “Oh, no. Here's that weird girl asking for my spinach.”

Tammy 30:46


Jalyn Peterson 30:47

Were you that girl that wore like horses on your shirt?

Tammy 30:50

All right, Jalyn, knock it off. Don't give away all my secrets. All right. Well, I wanted just think about this because Satan, he has his own version of this game in Moses chapter 4, and in Genesis chapter 3, so we are gonna find his two truths and a lie. And that's how he gets them. I just think it's interesting because he does the same thing with us. He tells us a little bit of truth with a lie, and then we don't know what to believe. Okay, so let's go to Moses chapter 4. And we are going to look at verses 10 and 11. We've got a couple of truths and lies going on here. And so let's just read these in Moses, chapter 4, verse 10, and 11. And Melinda, will you read that for us.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 31:27

10 "And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die;

11 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Tammy 31:39

Okay, right there in those two verses, did you catch the lie? And the two truths? What are they?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 31:44

Well, the 'Ye shall not surely die' is a deception there and incorrect; that then that 'Your eyes will be opened', and that 'you will know good and evil', which is a godlike quality. Those are actually truths that he's twisting all this together in a pretty complicated way.

Tammy 32:02

Yeah, exactly. In fact, I thought it was interesting in Moses, chapter 4, after they partake of the fruit - and all of this happens in Moses 4, verse 28 - it says,

28 "And I, the Lord God, said, into mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; "

And Satan knew that you'll become just like your parents, which we've talked about; you want to be like your heavenly parents. And so what I thought was interesting is that the lies - they were personal, though. Jalyn, I don't know if you caught this, but as I was reading, I thought, he never at one point said, “You sure are fat and ugly. You sure are stupid.” Like, none of the lies are personal, because he perfectly caters his lie to what he knew they lacked. He knew where their soft spot was. And it was in the ability to keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth, right?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 32:50

He's also trying to slip in some unsurity and some questioning about if God the Father can be trusted. Because he's sort of saying, “Oh, you won't surely die.”

Tammy 33:07

There's that word again.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 33:08

Yeah, like he's really into this, “Oh, nah, that, He just says that,” or, you know, he's trying to poke and prod at this idea that they're trusting their Father or their heavenly parents. And that's a really dangerous thing to be introducing here, because they have been so trustworthy. And that's the whole reason they're listening to this talking snake right now. It's because they are trusting individuals, because they've never thought they shouldn't be trustworthy. So, so it's ironic that he's trying to introduce this idea of Oh, yeah, He's not telling you the truth, because HE's, in fact the one not telling the truth.

Jalyn Peterson 33:50

But when he says, "Ye shall not surely die", I guess it depends on what he means by die.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 33:59

Yeah, what the Heavenly Father had told them was, if you eat of that fruit, you will die. That's true. It's not, wasn't going to happen instantly. But He says, “in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.” That's what they're told by Heavenly Father. And that's, in fact, accurate if you're looking at, you know, there's a lot of prophetic discourse about a day to the Lord being 1,000 years.

Jalyn Peterson 34:24


Melinda Wheelwright Brown

Then this is what we're seeing. And so that's actually exactly accurate, that in the day - in the Lord's day - they would die in that timeframe from eating,

Jalyn Peterson

Got it.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 34:33

because it would make them truly mortal. It's really just crossing a threshold into full mortality that they're talking about, I think.

Tammy 34:41

Yeah, that's exactly right. In fact, there's this really cool quote by Brigham Young about that, what happened when they partook of the fruit that we have to read. Jalyn, will you read this quote? I love it when Jalyn reads the quotes and then she's like, What? I always feel bad I'm puttin you on the spot, but here's what Brigham Young had to say about this.

Jalyn Peterson 35:01

"When the earth was framed and brought into existence, and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in Heaven. But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. This is the glory the earth came from. And when it is glorified, it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there. And these intelligent beings that I'm looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth."

Tammy 35:28

That's why it's called "the fall". Like, I love the idea that the earth Fell into its position, and earth life and mortality began. And the verse that Melinda was referring to is in Moses chapter 3, verse 17. This is in Moses, when the Lord really does say, 'I forbid that you take of this tree,' "for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." There are scholars who say that you will die spiritually, not necessarily physically.

Jalyn Peterson 35:51

It makes more sense too, when you say, “When man fell,” we're getting to the point that Melinda made in her book of that, choosing to eat the fruit that gave them the knowledge of good and evil was a decision - not necessarily a sin - that caused them to fall. Like you say, When man fell, that's the part of the creation story that I struggle with the most, that there were seemingly two opposing commandments. One, multiply and replenish the earth, and one, don't eat of the tree. And so to me, I'm like, I don't understand how the whole plan is predicated upon a sin. That makes zero sense to me in my mind of why that would be the case.

When I listened to your book, Melinda, and you can probably, I'm probably not even doing it justice. But the fact that they made that decision to go that way, it was their decision to make, they were going to live with the consequences of that. But it was not necessarily the same way I think of sin in my mind, that sin is way too heavy of a word. To say they made a choice that they knew would separate them from God instead of 'they fell', and they like, this horrible woman who ate this. And yeah, it makes way more sense.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 37:13

Well, I think there are really a couple of key points that are worth mentioning right here, because so many people do struggle with this idea that they were given what some people call 'conflicting commandments', and I said those in air quotes. But I think, first of all, it's really key to realize that it's because of modern-day prophets and restoration of scripture in the Book of Mormon, particularly, that we know that they couldn't have children while in the garden. That is such a crucial piece of this story that is missing in Genesis. Without that piece, you cannot make sense of those two conflicting commandments. But the reason those conflicting commandments were so crucial, is that they were mutually exclusive.

And so they forced - and I don't mean a domineering, unrighteous dominion sort of forcing - but they required the use of agency, because of the direction they went, they were choosing. If they did one, they were going to disobey the other. If they did the other, they were disobeying the first. So it just forced them to have to use agency. And it had to be a totally, totally agency-based decision to cross that threshold. Because the Lord couldn't possibly have them looking back once things got really difficult and challenging here in the lone and dreary world and thinking, Well, You made me do this.

You know, it had to be that they knew, you know. No, we chose this. And really, they're acting as proxies for every single one of us here on earth, because we each chose to trust that the Savior could do what He said He would do, that this could all work out, even though it would be hard for me, but that it could work. And so I think that's so beautiful and symbolic of our trust in the Lord that we each exercised and demonstrated through our actual stepping into this space and crossing this threshold just like Eve and Adam did before us.

Tammy 39:23

Well, and how much do I love, Melinda, as you were just speaking, you kept speaking of them in the word, in the pronouns of 'they' and 'them'. Again, that idea of help meet, that they were united and they were one. In Moses chapter 4, verse 12., and in Genesis chapter 3, verse six, they say the same thing and it says this.

Moses 4:12 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat."

There is scholarship that believes that "with her" meant that Adam was there the whole time. And I love this because it makes them more united as opposed to this dullard idiot guy and was like, 'Do what? You ate the fruit?....Ah great, Eve, now I gotta do it.' I mean, I love how unified and they were help meets. I think they made the choice together. Adam was there. He was part of the conversation. And that changed the whole trajectory of that idea for me.

Jalyn Peterson 40:26

And when you read the scriptures following that, it does make it sound like, 'Well, she made me do it. Well, then the serpent made me do it. Well, then it was his fault', you know. So it's kind of like, I think that's where people kind of get that notion. But

Tammy 40:39

Yeah, yeah. Well and in Hebrew, it really does mean they were together. It is that way in Hebrew. He was with her when that whole thing happened. She wasn't by herself, making the decision, and then having to come clean with Adam.

Jalyn Peterson 40:51


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 40:51

Yeah. I think there are two really key points in those verses. And actually, I love the difference between Moses 4:12. And Genesis 3:6, because it points out that Joseph Smith corrects the wording to say that "it became pleasant", instead of "it was pleasant". And that "became" really represents a process of time. It shows that there's some interim there. And in some depictions, it appears that that interim was three seconds long, but it could have been aeons long. It could have really been ages of them puzzling over this and thinking about it.

And I love what you said, Tammy, I love that so much. Because I agree so completely, that it makes perfect sense that they would have counseled together about everything. We know about the divine counsel in heaven is counseling, counseling, counseling; it's discussing together and listening to all the voices, that all the stakeholders need to participate and decide together. I think the Hebrew in there like you alluded to, it's so helpful to remember that in English, we have one word that means "you" and it's singular "you" or plural "you". But in most other languages, especially in Hebrew, you have very clear different words there. So if we read the Hebrew, you can see this is a plural "you".

Tammy 42:18

you. Okay, I just need to sit with that for just a moment. That idea that you just taught us Melinda, that it could have taken eons to make the decision. I have never considered that before. Because in my mind, it was just a quick little flippant decision that you've like, Let's just get things done, I'm gonna eat the apple. But now I'm thinking, No. They could have counseled for a long time about this together, making the decision. Okay, that is, that is so good. I, I love that right now. Thank you. I'm so glad you taught that to us.

I was always struck with this idea - and I wrote this at the top of my scriptures - we talked about how Satan just wanted the glory. And I thought, you know, why didn't Satan just leave the status quo, because if he had, he would have frustrated the plan completely. Like, he could have just left them in the garden, and they still would have been, and I love how Elder Holland came to my mission one time. And he said that. He's like, Why didn't Satan just leave 'em there? Because if they were good they would still be there, and he said, "riding giraffes and eating lollipops." I've never forgotten that.

And I thought, That is brilliant, but it's because Satan is just so self-centered, like he wants all the glory, and it's not gonna work. And I love how the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual says this about the fall:

"The decision for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit brought about consequences of the fall. And this consequence is the truth that Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality, a step essential to our eternal progress."

So in the next segment, we're going to talk about that word "consequence".

Segment 4 43:50

Tammy 43:50

I want to know, and I think this would be interesting - depending on your age - what is a common feeling associated with the word "consequences"?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 43:58

Hmm, that's a good question. I think when you're young, it's got a negative connotation.

Jalyn Peterson 44:03

Yeah, it's definite punishment. Right?

Tammy 44:05

Every kid listening right now is like, “When I'm grounded.” Totally negative. Yeah. But there are positive consequences, right?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 44:13

Absolutely. I think when you're older, you start to realize kind of in a more scientific framework, this idea that it's very satisfying when you can predict what will happen, because it gives you a much better ability to plan because you can just see like, it's like a flowchart. If I do this, then this will happen; if I do this, and that will happen, right? And it's like, choose your own adventure, you know, kind of where it's gonna take you. And so it's a huge blessing. It's great to have consequences.

Jalyn Peterson 44:42

That is interesting, though, that I still think consequence as the negative connotation. Like, as an adult and the positive, I'm calling those "results". (laughter)

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 44:51

Oh, that's a good word. That's a really big difference.

Jalyn Peterson 44:53

Oh, good consequence. I'm like, wait, there are consequences. I'm calling those results when they're positives. Like, still, you know,

Tammy 45:01

I love that. Well, what would you say universally then? Is it a consequence or a result about what happened to Adam and Eve? What universally, what does everyone think - positive or negative?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 45:12

I actually much prefer the idea that being a result, because it wasn't that they were being punished, it was that that's just how that's gonna work if they crossed the threshold, this is where they'd be. And this is what life would be like. And I think this next section that we read, with what they're told by Heavenly Father and prepared for, it's really a matter of just giving them information about, Okay, here's like what will happen now and let me just give you a couple tips and warnings. It's not, “Oh, you are in hot trouble,” but just some good helpful advice here to what to watch for.

Jalyn Peterson 45:54

I do like that, that is so good.

Tammy 45:56

I love you so much - tips and warnings. Like that is a perfect summation of these next verses. So let's just do this. Let's dive into the tips and warnings that are given to Eve and Adam, this is so cool. Let's go to Moses chapter 4, and we are going to start in verse 20 and we're gonna go 20-25. And some Melinda, will you read verse 20 us.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 46:15

20 "And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;"

Tammy 46:30

Now, this is interesting. I love what one commentator said, LDS theologian, he says Satan is symbolically informed that he will not even have the privilege of Earth life that even the cattle and beasts have. Like it's the lowest you could be, completely submitted and subdued to the earth. So that is where that comes in. And, and I, I don't know, I mean, Melinda and, Jalyn, what are your thoughts on this? Because I think it's interesting that he comes appearing as the Savior in that symbol of a snake. And now as a result, he is cursed below all the other animals.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 47:05

I actually think it's tragic. I mean, it just breaks my heart. I just think of what a sad loss that must have been for his Heavenly Parents to have to see where his choices had led him, you know, and I think when we read his name, perdition, which we read a few segments ago there, that word means "lost". So many of us are parents of wanderers, for tough loved ones who are finding their own path through the wilderness, and it's really heart-wrenching. It's tragic. So it makes me sad. That's a sad verse to me.

Jalyn Peterson 47:41

But to me when I read that, it's always like, yeah, he's cursed. I mean, he's never gonna gain exaltation. He's never gonna have a body. He's never gonna go through all this. But he still has all this power, right? He still has all the power to be able to tempt us and lie and do all that stuff to try and sway people his way.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 48:07

He has no more power than we do. We always will have more power by virtue of our physical embodiment.

Tammy 48:16


Jalyn Peterson 48:16


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 48:17

which is so awesome.

Tammy 48:18

But to be cursed upon your belly. I mean, the idea when you're on your belly, you naturally want to stand. You want to get up, you want to shake off the dust and get on with your life and he won't ever get that chance. He will be on his belly and "dust thou shalt eat all the days of thy life." Like there's no coming back from this. This is it. You don't get to shake it off and try again. It is the saddest cursing. So you're right, Melinda, so sad.

Jalyn Peterson 48:42

I don't know. I'm kind of struggling with that. Like, I get that he's never going to have more power over us but he sure is able to do a lot with what he has. I mean, look at the world today. He is leading people left and right. You know what I mean?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 48:56

Well, I think it really is like an abdication of our power to him. I mean, we're just opening that door and letting him in. And then like we just hand over our power.

Tammy 49:07

And then how much do we lover verse 21, because it puts the power in perspective now. And so verse 21, Jalyn, why don't you read verse 21, for us.

Jalyn Peterson 49:17

21 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Tammy 49:25

Okay, now this, everyone highlight this verse, put stars around it everything. This is the thesis statement of the Bible. You will see this as the struggle for all mankind even now, where we have, first of all, "I will put enmity", highlight that. That word means "an equal hatred". There is this equal hatred, no friendship is allowed here. He will put emnity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed. It's interesting, in Moses, it says, "And he shall bruise thy head", highlight "He" and put Christ. But in Genesis, it doesn't say, it says "it" shall bruise thy head. So interesting, it wrote Christ out of there.

Christ will have power to bruise thy head and thou, Satan shall bruise his heel. And again going to the lowest part of the body. Alright, you might be able to hurt his heel. Okay. Satan can hurt our heels, but that's the limited power he gets. And Jesus Christ will have power to crush the head.

Jalyn Peterson 50:23

So just back up for all of us who are not gospel scholars out there, writing books and stuff. So we know emnity - equal hatred. So when it says "and I will put emnity", that's Christ is putting equal hatred between -"thee" is Satan?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 50:43

I think the "I" is Heavenly Father.

Jalyn Peterson 50:45

Right. Okay. "I will put emnity", so Heavenly Father will put emnity between, who's thee?

Tammy 50:52

thee - Satan.

Jalyn Peterson 50:53

Satan, okay. And the woman, meaning Adam and Eve?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 50:58


Jalyn Peterson 50:58

Just specifically Eve.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 51:01

Yeah, because they're talking about her, the sons and daughters that she will be first,

Jalyn Peterson 51:06

got it. “Between thy seed and her seed.” And so Satan has power.

Tammy 51:12

And "he" who is Jesus Christ.

Jalyn Peterson 51:15

Oh, so now we throw Christ in there. Okay. “And Christ shall bruise thy head,” meaning what?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 51:23

Bruise Satan's head and that's the crush.” That's where bruise is probably, well, weakly translated.

Jalyn Peterson 51:32

Meaning greater power. Greater power because we can destroy, okay.

Tammy 51:39

The head, which is the main part of the body that causes it to function and work.

Jalyn Peterson 51:43

Got it. Okay. And Satan only has power to bruises the heel.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 51:49

Which is interesting because you think about the heel and when your foot is damaged or injured, you can't walk, you can't make progress when your foot is damaged. So that's what I think is fascinating.

Tammy 52:02

I like that.

Jalyn Peterson 52:03

And to me, when I think heel, it's feet, and feet are directional.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 52:08

Yes, directional and one direction.

Jalyn Peterson 52:11


Tammy 52:11

Perfect application. Okay, we gotta keep moving on then, because then, I love verse 22. Oh my gosh, we have to talk about this. K, Melinda, here we go. Because this has always been seen for me as a negative consequence like, And then you have to have babies and it's gonna hurt! But WHOA! When you take it word for word and in Hebrew, get ready for this. Okay, here we go. We have and "I will greatly multiply" Highlight that, because in Hebrew - and I love that Camille Frank Olson and Melinda - you put this in your book, what does it mean?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 52:41

Well, it doesn't mean necessarily to intensify, but to make it repetitive. And that's such a difference. Because if we're talking about childbirth, we're not talking about enormously painful childbirth, we're talking about having lots of children. And that's awesome. That's a beautiful blessing. But it's also really fascinating that that word, they use "sorrow" that the Hebrew, it's that, it's 'Ya gon' is the exact same word used when Adam is given his little bits of tips and advice for what's coming. And really the better word for it all is "labor", like "hard work.”

Tammy 53:19

Pain and toil.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 53:22

Yeah. But they're very balanced. I mean, so beautifully balanced. I just love that.

Tammy 53:27

Yes. And I love how Camille Fronk said, "In life, the fallen world would require her to do painful things over and over again.” I mean, who can't relate with that? Every one of us.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 53:39

Yeah, he's a farmer like, over and over.

Tammy 53:39

So we're not even necessarily talking about childbirth right here. We're just talking about life. He's basically warning them, Listen, it's gonna be hard. And you're gonna have painful moments and times of trial and sorrow. That's the first thing. In Genesis chapter 3, verse 16, there's a semi-colon after the word "conception", but that was added, through those who were writing, that's not Hebrew. It would read "and thy conception; In sorrow, thou shalt bring forth children." And so yeah, it'll be painful when you have children. And I love knowing how you put that: that the Lord's just kind of giving them a heads up, Let me tell you what it'll be like. And I like this word, "result". It's a result. Not necessarily a negative consequence, even though it is super painful, but

It's just a reality, right? I mean, that's maybe the right word there.

And then the best. Melinda, I want you just to take it away when it says, And thy desire "And thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee." CORRECT it!

Jalyn Peterson 54:37

Talk to me, girl. Talk to me.

Tammy 54:39

'Cuz the Hebrew changes everything.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 54:41

It really does change everything. And I mean, I think, Tammy, you're more advanced in your Hebrew study than I am. But even in my Beginning Hebrew book, it's crystal clear. If you look at that Hebrew it ought to be "with", rule with, not rule over. And prepositions in Hebrew are tricky. There aren't as many as we use in English, and so they each have lots and lots of different things that they could be. And the way that it's sometimes distinguished has to do with the vowling that it gives, and that comes hundreds of years later through Midrash, and whichever Rabbi happens to be the one who's most popular and talking about it at a time that it's written down and canonized.

And so it's so complicated, but the thing that, to me, helps me reconcile this - because for decades, I was really concerned and bothered by this verse in this phrase - is that everything else in their story indicates balance. It's that help meet idea, and the rib, and all the beautiful parts that we know so clearly are symbolic. That we just know, the reason that rubs us the wrong way is because it's an incorrect translation.

Tammy 55:56

Yeah, it's wrong.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 55:57

It's wrong.

So cross out the word "over" everybody. It says "and he shall WITH thee. Truly in Hebrew, it is ET, and then a pronoun that means with you - feminine. So rule with thee. Oh, I love it. I love it.

Jalyn Peterson 56:15

Why am I 50 years old and just now learning that; it's bagged me my whole life?

Tammy 56:20

Well, and how much do you love it now when we go back to this idea at the beginning, that this kinship, their ruling together in that tent, they are ruling with each other? And then I love how they're a help meet.

Jalyn Peterson 56:30

and understood it. The whole entire historical world would be different.

Tammy 56:35

Yes, it's true. Okay, well, oh, my gosh, that was so much. Well, and then you go into the Adam thing. And really, according to Hebrew, it really is what it is. You can't really dissect verse 23 as well as we did verse 22. And so it's pretty plain what Adam's result will be.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 56:53

Well, one thing worth dissecting there, though, is this: Adam is not cursed. The land is cursed for his sake. And that's a really crucial distinction, because that gets lost a lot in kind of traditional understandings of their story, but to be cursed for their sake means so that it can help you ultimately, that you know this hard work will be for your benefit. And it's going to teach you a lot of great things because of it. So it's not that Adam was cursed, and Eve wasn't cursed either. Only Satan was cursed, which is so crucial that we understand that. It's, it's right there in black and white.

Tammy 57:35

Okay, that is crucial! Hold please. Like, I got to write that in my scriptures. Satan was the only one cursed and that Adam and Eve were given results. I love this whole - I gotta write this down. I'm so grateful you pointed that out, Melinda. So good. That is awesome. Okay, so those are some of the "results". And then in the next segment, we're going to talk about the ultimate result was that they had to leave Eden. So we'll talk about that next.

Segment 5 57:59

Tammy 58:02

Okay, so there you are, you've just been kicked out of the Garden of Eden. What would you want, to succeed in the real world? Well, what is it that you're going to need?

Jalyn Peterson 58:10


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 58:12


Tammy 58:14

A candy drawer.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

A candy drawer! (laughter)

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 58:12

Um yeah, definitely a candy drawer. But I would just say, let's just back up one sentence there because I don't love the idea of being kicked out. I think they were like escorted out onto their way.

Tammy 58:24

Oh, teach us Melinda.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 58:31

Well, I love that the phrases that it actually uses are like, 'send forth' and 'drive out.'

Tammy 58:39

What, tell us what verse you're in.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

I'm jumping between my Moses and Genesis so let me find it.


I know it's hard to do that to jump. I know.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

So 4:29, Moses 4:29 says, "Therefore I, the Lord God, will send him forth" "send THEM forth from the Garden of Eden". And then in 31, it says, "So I drove out the man" (and his wife - and Eve), "and I placed at the east of the Garden of Eden" blah blah blah. Okay, so, so I really love to picture this sending them forth, driving them out, as the way that I see driving my kids who are all young adults and a little older than young adults now, but driving them to the airport when they're going to fly back to college or go on study abroad or go on their mission.

Or, you know, that what we know in this little section here is that it wasn't an angry expulsion. There wasn't suddenly thunder and lightning and an earthquake as soon as they took those bites of that fruit. There was this interim where they were very lovingly given these tips and this advice and had the results and realities explained to them. And so there's this loving interim happening there. And now they're being shown out into this big learning adventure, this school of mortality that they're about to have. And there's a lot of like in classic art we have like Peter Paul Rubens' painting - this angry expulsion and the wrath of God drove them out. It really wasn't that. That changes the way we see it. There's a lot of meaning and symbolism to that, I think.


And it really softens the whole experience. Thank you for teaching that, Melinda. Yeah, I remember my oldest was getting ready for college. And we got in a fight right before she left cuz I wanted her to organize her things. And she said, You just want me to leave. And I said, Yes, I do, just like every other parent who has a child leaving for college. I want you to go and experience life, and have a good time. I'm not kicking you out because I hate you. I want you to go and experience things. And so there was so much love behind my directive. I like how you put that.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:00:51

And what we really want is for them to come back even better than when they left.


I love it when she comes back!

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

Right? That's exactly, that's so meaningful. And I think too, like I always picture those drives for us. We live about 50 minutes from the airport. And those drives are such sacred moments with my children where I feel like the whole time I'm thinking, “Okay, what did I forget to tell you? Oh, dear. Cash for the airport.”

Jalyn Peterson 1:01:17

You're doing the "tips and tricks".

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:01:18

Yeah, you're doing all the little things and making sure that they're ready. And that, to me is what Moses 4 really is. It's that loving preparation of parents who adore them, and want them to have these great learning experiences and warning them. Like, it's gonna be so hard, but hang in there, you can do it, you know.

Jalyn Peterson 1:01:38

Yeah. Like, oh, that's so awesome.

Tammy 1:01:41

Ah, so, okay, Melinda, I'm going to use your wording next. I really, and I put that in my scriptures above Moses chapter 5, I wrote "come back better". Okay, so I asked you guys to read through Moses chapter 5, and tell us what are the things that the Lord gave Adam and Eve so that they could come back better? And before we can actually even jump into 5, we're going to go back just a little bit, because I want Melinda's take. And I want us to talk about what He gave them before He sent them on their way. And I think it's so significant how important this one thing is, because I think when I went for college, my parents gave me luggage, when that's when our oldest went away, you know, think about what you give your child that you think will be the best thing for 'em, maybe pots and pans.

But I love how our Heavenly Parents are like, Here's what you're going to need for sure. And it's found in Moses chapter 4, verse 27, as well as Genesis chapter 3, verse 21. And we just have to talk about this. In fact, Jalyn, you actually said that this is what you would want when you were driven out of the Garden of Eden, so will you please read this for us.

Jalyn Peterson 1:02:42

27 "Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Tammy 1:02:49

Thank you. Let's highlight the word skins. Because Hebrew changes this. And I am going to also include in our shownotes, a link to one of the greatest articles by Steven D Ricks about this, and he writes - and there's so much scholarship that supports this - that the word for skin is "OR", and the word for light in Hebrew is "OHR" and the difference in the spelling between those two words is one letter. And there is a belief that in the translation process, it was translated incorrectly. And there are so many rabbinical sources that believe that when they gave them these coats of skins, it was really coats of light, that they were given this light that would help them shine this light that would represent Christ. I mean, it was all about this, giving them these covenants and this truth that they needed.

So Melinda, tell us a little bit more about this. I love how you wrote about this in your book, especially in your footnotes. So give us some more information about it.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:03:44

Well, this section is so beautiful to me, I just love how it's bookended with those fig leaf aprons at the beginning, that was there in Moses 4:13. And then we go through the tips they're given, and then the other bookend is this 27 that's such a better, more protective, more powerful covering that they didn't even realize what they needed. But it's really all about receiving, they have to receive the coats, they had to be willing to put them on, which is kind of an interesting thing, too, because you think about when with my little grandkids recently, and our little three year old would say, I'm not cold, I don't need a cold, you know. He just doesn't know. And the parents are like, You know what, we're just gonna put it on anyway. Okay, well take it with you, because you're gonna be needing it in about five minutes, right? And I think these coats are so symbolic of Christ and His Atonement. One of the words that is linked closely with atonement is kaphar. And in Hebrew and Arabic and several of that family of languages, it's the same idea of putting on, and this protective covering. And one of the craziest little tidbits of information that just is so beautiful to me is this Arabic custom called Kaphatah, which is this ritual sort of custom where if you were in the desert - and picture this just really harsh conditions living out there in the dry, windy, hot, hot desert full of traders and brigands and bad guys all over the place, right? It's really dangerous. If you were trying to escape and get to safety, you could run to the tent entrance or doorway of a sheikh or like a tribal Lord, and you would—

Tammy 1:05:37

They would invite the kinsman, the head of the tent.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:05:39

Yeah, the kinsman.

Tammy 1:05:39

Yeah. I love this story that you're telling us. It's one of my favorites.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:05:43

Oh, mine too. Mine too. And you could say, I am your suppliant. Of course, not in English like that. But say that in Arabic, beyond

Tammy 1:05:52

ana sukka kula.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:05:54

There you go. I don't speak Arabic, so.

Jalyn Peterson 1:05:56

What do you mean, like I'm, your supplant? Like, what do you mean by that?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:05:59

So, I am begging you.

Jalyn Peterson 1:06:01

Begging you, k.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:06:01

to take me in,

Tammy 1:06:02

Protect you.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:06:01

Like to adopt or protect me. And then this the sheikh, or the sheikh, would put the edge of his robe or his garment around you. And that symbolic gesture basically means if anybody is coming to get you, they're gonna have to deal with me first. It's sort of my sanctuary..

Jalyn Peterson

Yes, it's the hen! Spreading the wings.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

That he will protect you now. And you become part of his kinship, like he will take you in and save you.

And one of the things I just love so much from this, that just brings us to life. If you pictured Nephi and his family wandering through that desert, they're making their way to the ocean so they can cross over to the Promised Land. They're having this wilderness, this desert type of dangerous experience. In fact, we even can surmise that they were trying to stay safe from the brigands and the bad guys out there. Because we know they didn't want to like fires. They could have lit fires, but they didn't, because that would have drawn attention to them. So they're in a dangerous situation.

And in 2 Nephi chapter 4, verse 33, we have this core disburse that says, Oh, Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness. Oh, Lord, wilt thou make a way for min e escape before mine enemies." And like this is exactly what he is talking about. He understands because of his childhood and being raised in this tradition, how important Caphar and Caphatah is for safety. And that's what these coats of skins are, this is putting on Christ.

The other thing that I think is so amazing, is this word that we often use. And we read it all through the Old Testament, and all these different ways, and the New Testament. But the word is Enduo, that becomes endowed. We often think of Endowment as a gift, but really to endow is "to put on". When we tie this all together, and we think about this garment of life, or like the Light of Christ or covenantal protection, it's what we're given when we go into the temple. We have this sacred experience when we yoke ourselves to Christ through our covenants. It's putting on this protective coat the skin, this covering, and it's having Him with us all the time, this protection. I think this is maybe the most beautiful symbol in all of scripture to me, I just love this so much.

Jalyn Peterson 1:08:43

Wow, that's amazing.

Tammy 1:08:45

I agree completely, Melinda, and for me, that is what wearing the garment of the holy priesthood is about. They are our garments of light. The Lord is embracing us saying, “Come into my tent, I will protect you.” And if you don't think they are a form of protection, then you're missing the whole purpose. They really are on so many levels. It's, it's beautiful and and I love how you brought up kaphar There's this idea where it could also come from the Hebrew word KATEF, which means on your shoulder or your shoulder blade or your side. And when you think about our temple clothing and where that comes in, and it's a similar word that is used for priestly garments that's spoken of in Exodus. Like we're not, when it says "made coats of skins", those coats, it's a tunic. It covers you from your shoulders to your ankles, your whole body and, and garments did at one point.

I mean, I don't know. There's some days where I wish my garments covered that much. Maybe my face that's not really I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I don't have enough protection. I want more and so I just, when you put it into those terms, Melinda that was just stunning.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:09:59

Oh, thank you. And you know, actually there are two Hebrew words there that I would just point out too, because they go with so closely with what you just said, that we read about these words LAVASH and KAVOD. And this is describing divinely-made sacred garments. It's not just, oh, I'm gonna be cold, I better put a coat on. Or, Yes, underwear. It's so much more than that.

One of my daughters, my third daughter, who's 22, just recently went to receive her own Endowment. She helped me a lot with my research and my writing, she was one of my great, kind of early editors in my book project. So she and I had talked about these things, literally hundreds of times. I mean, she was the most well-prepared 22 year old ever to go to the Temple after working on this project with me. But afterwards, I was concerned that she might have a adjustment period getting used to wearing an additional layer as many of us have. And my older children, some of them struggled with that adjustment period. It was awkward and difficult for them. But she came to me a little while later, and she said, Mom, I just want you to know, I wasn't bothered by that for a single second. I felt so snuggled up, enclosed in love. I just felt embraced in love; I love wearing them so much.

Jalyn Peterson 1:11:24

That's exactly how I felt. Yeah, it's just like, it was like being wrapped in a blanket. And I was like, I can be hit by a bus, it doesn't even matter. I'm just like, and it's fascinating too, I thought, when I read your book, you talked about too how, you know, these are historical accounts, and they've been retold different ways and in different places.

And I have a friend who left the church and we were having this kind of discussion about garments. That was kind of a sticking point for her. And she's like, I don't need to be covered up, there's nothing wrong with me, and just kind of missing the whole thing. And the garment was there as that protection it was, it's not some sort of you're dirty you're, I'm gonna hide you because you're naked. But to have that extra knowledge that you just gave of like, a coat of light, is helping kind of project the light of Christ outward, like to put on the Light of Christ, to have that be the garment.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:12:21

That's powerful.

Tammy 1:12:23

Okay, hold on, I'm going from a combination of things you both just said, which is, we come back better when we're clothed or wrapped in light, which is Christ. Like, how my 50 years old, and I'm just now making this connection to garments. That is so good. Like we come back better. Thank you. Thank you so much for that discussion. Like we come back better with Christ. Okay, so let's go back into Moses, then. And let's just find out what else they were given to come back better.

Jalyn Peterson 1:12:53

I started in verse 4. Here's the thing, He gave them the ability to still hear His voice, even though they were shut out from His presence. In Moses 5, verse four, they call upon the name of the Lord, and they heard the voice coming from the way of Eden. They had the ability to still communicate with the Lord, even though they couldn't see Him and weren't in their presence, in His presence anymore.

Tammy 1:13:22

That's a great one.

Jalyn Peterson 1:13:23

That's the one I loved the most.

Tammy 1:13:26

Keep going, you guys. Oh, that was good, Jalyn.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:13:29

Yeah, and then well, following that, in verse 5, they're given commandments, which are such blessings to have some safety fences there, are so protective.

Jalyn Peterson 1:13:39

And knowing really, it boiled down to, they could still hear the voice of the Lord, angels appeared to them still, there was still communication with Heaven, right? It wasn't as easy but there was still communication with Heaven. Commandments, and then ordinances and symbols that help us remember who we are and all of that stuff. And the Holy Ghost. Like, you know what, if you boil down the gospel, that's what it is.

Tammy 1:14:06

To come back better.

Jalyn Peterson 1:14:07

That's really what it is.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:14:09

Yeah, I think that all of those ordinances and covenants are so symbolic of our covental relationship with our Savior. And that really, they just all point, I mean, it's all temple talk, like these raise verses are just intensely temple.

Jalyn Peterson 1:14:25

And to remind us that we made those covenants, right? To remind us that we have that covenant, we promised.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:14:32

Like everything points to Christ.

Jalyn Peterson 1:14:34


Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:14:34

Everything is Christ. It's beautiful.

Tammy 1:14:37

And then we have to go to Moses chapter 5, verse 10, and we're gonna end the segment with this. I love all of this stuff that they were given to come back better and what does it tell us that Adam, what was his physical, visceral reaction to all of this?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:14:52

Oh, it's so beautiful that he's just overwhelmed with gratitude and realizing what a blessing all of this is. Like his eyes are open. He's learning, he's progressing. It's so beautiful.

Tammy 1:15:07

I love how it says he's 'filled'. Have you ever felt full from all of the stuff you know? I mean, isn't that a great way to put gospel and covenants and ordinances that you just, you are filled. I love that.

Jalyn Peterson 1:15:21

And I always feel this way after doing this podcast, honestly, I'm like, Oh, this was for me, this is for me.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:15:27

And I would just add that "filled" is one of the really accurate meanings of the word that we think of as "sanctified". And so that's, if you think of that, that he was sanctified, that he realized he was becoming more sacred and, and holy.

Tammy 1:15:46

I like the footnote down below, it says "spiritually reborn". And just that idea going with that. And then you look in these verses, and you highlight every time you see the word joy, or glad, or joy. I just think it's so great, like, they get it. Now we can have joy. Now we are so glad. And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God in verse 12. "Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters." They taught all of them

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:16:13

And they and their and their, it was jointly done. All of it was joint and, and I mean, I just think we would be remiss not to at least hear Eve's voice, because it's not often we get a whole verse of a woman's voice. Can I read it?


Please read it for us, Melinda.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

11 "......Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

Such a beautiful verse. And can we just back up even one more verse, because I think we sometimes see verses 10 and 11 there in Moses 5, as a duo. But I think really, it's a triad. And I think we have to include verse 9, because verse 9 is Christ's verse. And they are such this beautiful triangle working together, right, where he says,

9 "......I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever,"

And this is the part that, wow, I just, I love this part so much. It says:

"that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will."

I mean, this is the most inclusive it can possibly be, it's for everybody. And I love that idea that the same way they fell is how they'll be redeemed. Well, that way is Christ. The reason they could fall is because Christ made that a possibility that they could have this mortal experience. And He facilitated the fall, and He'll facilitate the rise. It's that same Savior doing it. So I just would say, think of the three as this beautiful trio, not just a duet.

Tammy 1:18:10

Okay, just another pause here, I cannot believe all the stuff that I'm learning, pause for just a minute. Melinda I love how you taught us all about that. Because what we're going to do is in the next segment, we're going to put that to the test. And I think this next part really does test the limits and strengths of this triad, and of Adam and Eve being help meets and being one. So we'll do that next.

Segment 6 1:18:32

Tammy 1:18:36

Okay, so here's what we're going to do now, we're just going to jump right into the story of Cain and Abel. We are going to tell the story from the perspective of Moses chapter 5, because it's so much more rich than the story in Genesis. I almost feel like the story in Genesis makes Cain out to be the victim. You almost feel bad for Cain, when you read the story like, Wha. What about like, you know, poor Cain. But when you read what really happened in Moses chapter 5, suddenly you have this like, Oh, gosh, this is a way bigger deal than I thought. So we're going to just tell you what makes this story so much richer in Moses 5 than in Genesis chapter 4. So let's just go and start talking. Here we go.

Satan is up to his old tricks. He's all about his lies, the father of lies, nothing's new here. And so we know that Adam and Eve have taught their children everything. I thought this was interesting: many scholars believe that Cain and Abel were not the first children born to Adam and Eve.

Jalyn Peterson 1:19:28

That's exactly what I took when I read this. I was like, Oh, they weren't the first like it says above, like, and Satan came and they were calling on the Lord and they had sons and daughters. And I'm not necessarily saying this is in chronological order. But it did like, oh, they weren't necessarily the first.

Tammy 1:19:45

Yeah, so Adam and Eve had been doing this for a while and along come these children and we have Cain and Abel. Again, we have these names; I just love Hebrew names because the Hebrew name for Cain, it means "to acquire" and when, when she says above that I have gotten a man from the Lord, that's what Cain means - "I have gotten, I have obtained". And so she has Caine. And then it says, "but behold, Cain hearkened not, unto the Lord, saying, Who is the Lord that I should know him?"

Jalyn Peterson 1:20:12


Tammy 1:20:13

Right? It doesn't tell that in Genesis.

Jalyn Peterson 1:20:14

It does NOT.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:20:16

And that's really that opening of that door that he's like that, yeah, open that door and now comes in comes Satan. And now you're just going to abdicate some of your power to him. And I mean, that's really what the Moses account makes so clear, is Satan's role through this. Satan is left out in the Genesis account.

Tammy 1:20:35

Oh, you're totally right, Melinda. Oh, my gosh, thank you for pointing that out. Like the very clear and powerful role that Satan plays is left out of the story. You're so right. Oh, highlight the word "hearken". I thought that was interesting how many times we saw that and what we know harkening means. We talked about it all year last year, but for those of you who are new, in Hebrew, the word "hearken" means to not just listen but to obey. That's the significance about that word in Hebrew. And you see it in verse 16, in verse 17, and then again in verse 23. So, Cain, he doesn't hearken unto the Lord. Then verse 17, Abel hearkeins unto the voice of the Lord, and we have their two roles. Abel was a keeper of the sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Then here's verse 18. Jalyn, read that for us.

Jalyn Peterson 1:21:21

18 "And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord."

Tammy 1:21:28

Now that is not in the book of Genesis.

Jalyn Peterson 1:21:30

No, in fact, when you read Genesis, I'm kinda like, well, what? The fruit wasn't as good as the cattle? Like, you're kind of confused of like

Tammy 1:21:36

You feel bad for Cain like, Cain did what he was supposed to be doing.

Jalyn Peterson 1:21:39

It was fruit, like, is that bad? Like, why can't fruit be? Yeah, you're very confused until you read this. And you're like, Oh, okay. A little more than a story.

Tammy 1:21:49

Yeah. Circle that word "commanded". Satan doesn't command any of us to do something. That's the key right there. And he commanded Cain?

Jalyn Peterson 1:21:56


Tammy 1:21:57

Oh, thank you. That's the lie for sure. And Cain does it. He makes the offering because Satan told him to.

Jalyn Peterson 1:22:05

Even that whole thought that Cain has of, well," Who is the Lord that I should know him?" Earlier on, when Satan was in the Garden he says, Well, I'm a son of God, too. Like, why aren't you going to listen to me? Like, I'm also a Son of God, so, you know, big deal. So trying to lessen that importance like, Well, who's, who's the Lord?

Tammy 1:22:25

Oh, that is such a great point, Jalyn. So good. And then it just gives you so much more knowledge on the concept in 20 and 21, when it says the Lord had respect for Abel's offering but didn't have respect for Cain's. Without that piece of information about how Satan commanded, that's where the respect comes in. Melinda, tell us.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:22:44

Well, I just think that, you know, it's clear here that he had done it so wrong, that he wasn't following the Lord's guidelines, he was following Satan's. And I think it's also really interesting here to think about when we think of First Fruits, First Fruits is an idea that's really symbolic of Christ and His offering. And so, you know, it's fascinating that we see Christ and His sacrifice, both from sheepherder sort of perspective, like the Lamb of God, but also as the First Fruits of the gospel. And it's also just really interesting that it's only right like on the page before that, we're reading about Adam, being a tiller of the ground.

Jalyn Peterson 1:23:32

And I think right off, we have them set juxtaposed very close together, to make clear that they're kind of being set up as a foil of one another. That Adam did everything correctly, even with the transgression, but he was this noble, he and Eve were so noble and obedient and really trying to do the right thing. And then you have Cain doing everything a little bit wrong, and wrong with Satan's help. Not wrong by accident, like, not by accident. So I think we have the accident version of like, life happens and it's hard and things are difficult in mortality, that we see with even Adam's story. But this is a story now of well, when you're following Satan, it gets worse faster. It really falls apart.

Tammy 1:24:25

Well Melinda, read verse 23. Because I what I love about this is the Lord's allowing for him to make it right, though. Like let's, come on. We've been put to the test here, so read that for us, please.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:24:37

23 "If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;"

Now that's fascinating. That right there we have "rule over" again. Because if we read that "And thou shalt rule WITH him? That actually makes so much more sense.

Jalyn Peterson 1:25:03

So much more sense.

Tammy 1:25:05

So much more sense.

He's not going to rule OVER Satan, but he's going to do it with him because he's lining him up to be on his team.

Jalyn Peterson 1:25:11

Thank you, cuz that was one of my questions. I'm like, What? I read that about three times going, am I reading that right?

Tammy 1:25:17

Yeah. So then in verse 32, Cain walks into the field, Cain talked with Abel, his brother. And it came to pass that while they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother and slew him. And then we have again, I think it's so fascinating in verse 34, that the Lord says unto Cain, isn't that interesting that even after such a horrible mistake, the Lord is still talking to Cain. I mean, there's a lesson for all of us. But we have to highlight "Am I my brother's keeper?" Because I want everyone to write next to it: "Yes, you are". I mean, that is the classic lie Satan is trying to tell all of us right now.

Anytime we're worried about a loved one and people are like, It's none of your business what they're doing. That's Satan's classic: Are you your brother's keeper? Well, when that question's asked the answer is, Yeah, you actually are because you are part of this kinship that we talked about at the biginning. You are absolutely your brother's keeper; we are keepers of each other. And when the Lord says to enlarge our borders and strengthen our stakes, He is saying, Please keep each other safe. Yeah, you are supposed to protect each other. And Satan's like, No, you're not. It's none of your business. You do you. That's the classic line. You do you. Oh, no, don't do that.

Jalyn Peterson 1:26:31

Well, it's tricky though, in this day and age to be the keeper without being the judger. I mean, I think there's a there's a finesse to being the keeper, especially with friends that we have that are teetering on the line.

Tammy 1:26:48

You know, and I think that's Satan's word too.

Jalyn Peterson 1:26:50

For sure.

Tammy 1:26:52

Judging? What are you talking about? I'm concerned, I care about you. Oh, gosh, yeah.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:26:58

I love the verse in Doctrine and Covenants 82:19. You sort of get the opposite of Cain's approach, where Cain kind of encapsulates the 2 Nephi idea from 28:8 that says, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor, there's no harm in this, right? That's kind of that attitude. But then in D&C 82:19 we read, "every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, watching out for each other, and taking care of each other".

And then also from Book of Mormon, we have like, every man to deal justly one with another. Martin Luther King wrote about this so beautifully in his letter from Birmingham jail, where he says that "we're in a network of mutuality". What you do affects me and what I do affects you. That's kind of what I think of this is agency clash, where our agency has runs into each other. And it's like this three-legged race, that we're just tugging on each other and it's really, it can be very complicated and difficult to make forward progress when we're clashing like this. But that's where the Atonement comes in and Christ is able to balance out this really complicated equation of all of our different messing up that's affecting each other. It's so hard, but

Jalyn Peterson 1:28:22

It is very much too, when you think about it, like you think about Satan being self- centered, and all about him. If you come to someone in love and concern and say, Hey, I'm worried and this is this. And the response you get is, You're judging me, they are making it more about them, like you're not looking outside of, you know, your own brain, in your own mind to be emotionally mature enough to be like, Oh, ever, they just want what's best for me, you know?

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:28:50

Yeah. But I also think that the thing that we read over and over again in this story is this notion that Cain's driving force was getting game. And so it's kind of like we're looking at like their livelihood. So I think what the question is,

Jalyn Peterson 1:29:05

oh, that's fascinating,

kind of becomes this, like, well, do I have to worry about everybody else, even as I'm trying to provide for my family, and make my way in the world and, and have my career and my livelihood? And the answer is, yes, you actually.

That's a really good.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:29:23

Be really careful. Well, you know, there's a really excellent talk by Elder Oaks, President Oaks now, but back in 1986, he gave this talk called "Brother's Keeper". And he, oh he has so many gems in that, like, I just, I have loved restudying that as I prepared for this. Just really some great wisdom there. But it all comes down to this idea of getting gain.

Tammy 1:29:47

Well, and I love Melinda, when you said that, because in Moses 5, after the Lord talks to him, He says, Well, because you did this, when you till the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto her strength. I mean, he's basically saying, Well as a result, and you know I love my Hebrew professor has been teaching me - this Dr. Carly Anderson - and there is beauty in this idea with Am I my brother's keeper? that it's the lie that Satan's teaching us because this law of kinship allows for the Earth to yield fruit. It allows for us to do better and to grow more and progress.

And that was the whole point and purpose of this community and this tie in this unity. And that's what the Savior is. He is the Divine Kinsman. And He's like, I will bless everything. When we talk about the land of milk and honey, that is cuz, that is the direct result of being each other's keeper. And I love that blessing.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:30:39

Well, and look back to Adam, what we were just reading about. He's going to have to work hard and by the sweat of his brow, he'll be able to eat the herbs of, I mean, the the land and the earth is going to cooperate with Adam. Because he's doing it right. And here, Cain is actually cursed. We just like clarified Adam was not cursed.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:31:01

But Cain WAS cursed.

Jalyn Peterson 1:31:02

And all because of intention.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:31:05

Yes. And the desires of his heart. It comes down to that desire.

Jalyn Peterson 1:31:09

So, here's what I'm thinking, though, is how do I go out now and apply that to my life? Especially when, when, you say, we think about getting gain? Boy, are we in a world and I get trapped in this. I need more stuff, and then I'll be happy. Or I need a certain income level, and I'll be happy. If I had a house, if I have this.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:31:28

Isn't that really what the law of consecration is. It's like the answer, right? It's looking at life as a Stewardship mindset instead of an Ownership mindset. And I think there again, is that is the difference that we see. Adam and Eve saw life as a stewardship, that they were being blessed and given these opportunities to help them get back better, right? But Cain is looking at as an ownership and like, how much can I get? How much is for me? It's all me, me, me. It's about arrogance, and pride, and egotism that Satan had modeled so well for him. And I think the beautiful blessing of the law of consecration is to help us be able to overcome that by letting go and loosening our grip on things. Not coveting, but instead trusting that the Lord will give us even more when we just devote it to Him.

Jalyn Peterson 1:32:24

That's so fascinating. Because in my, in my job now, like I'm in the Bible Belt, I think there's, I think there's a lot of churches than Utah, my word. But I have a lot of pastors and preachers that will come in and more than once with those folks, they will routinely - I'm a financial consultant , so we're talking about their money - and that word stewardship comes up over and over and over again, out of other Christian religions who are like, they are very much concerned about stewardship. Yeah, I think that's so amazing you say that.

Tammy 1:32:29

I'm putting that next to verse 34 in Moses 5, “Stewardship.”

Jalyn Peterson 1:33:06

Yeah, that's so good. Wow, ladies

Tammy 1:33:08

Wow, ladies, well thank you. This was such a great discussion.

Jalyn Peterson 1:33:13

I just want to thank you both. Because I feel like that was totally for me.

Tammy 1:33:20

I felt that way for me, I learned so much!

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:33:23

Me, too!

Jalyn Peterson 1:33:24

You guys, like, oh, my word. Yeah, that was amazing.

Tammy 1:33:28

Okay, gather your thoughts then, and tell us what was your takeaway?

Jalyn Peterson 1:33:33

My takeaway is clearly back to those quotes I read that blew me away of how Eve's role as a help meet, meaning a divine saving role. Had we really had the plain and precious truths that we are looking at now today, it would have changed how we saw everything. And history would be different, because I have always had that struggle with the creation story. But it's kind of coalesced in my mind of like, yes; like I have gained such a greater testimony about the creation story, about the temple garments, and how we ended it up with stewardship about where my intention is. It makes all the world of difference.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown

I would just echo all of that, that was so well said. And I would just say one little bit that I really loved that I was not clearly aware of that was awesome was when you said that enmity, it means equal hatred, which I think you look at that as a balanced, almost like this law of compensation thing. But the thing that I love about this, and especially Moses, I'm so so so, so grateful for the book of Moses. So much truth and beauty in that, that we sadly have lost in the Genesis account. But what Moses shows us is that Christ is just through their whole story. It's really, it all points back to Christ. And that's just awesome. Because that's life, that it all points to Christ; every road leads to Christ, you know, when, when done wisely.

Jalyn Peterson

K, I want to add one thing now that, now that she said that I want to add one thing. You said that so grateful that we have the book of Moses and even I was thinking as we're going through there, even in the book of Moses, though, that word "over" instead of "with "? That's why it's called the Pearl of Great Price, right? It says for those who seek and kind of dig because I'm like, Well, why didn't Joseph Smith just change that? Why didn't like, why did we have to go through that whole thing? It seems like that could have happened.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:35:16

That could be hours and hours of discussion right there that we can't even touch, right now.

Jalyn Peterson 1:35:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, true to the word of this will be a pearl of great price if you study it. You two have obviously put in the time and taught us and so grateful for that.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:35:56

And the on-going restoration. And asking more questions. Just line upon line figuring out deeper, better questions to ask, little by little, so. So much beauty in this.

Jalyn Peterson 1:36:12

Tam, what are yours?

Tammy 1:36:13

I mean, I want to say yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Those are all mine. All of them. Oh, my gosh, I wrote so many notes. I don't know. I mean, okay. I have to say Jalyn, when we talked about how subtle Satan is in our own lives. And you talked about how the negativity comes in our own voice. That is so subtle and I, that really struck me because I thought, Wow, he has been telling me so many lies for 50 years now. My own voice, that was so good. And then Melinda, ah, goll, so much. I love though, I did love so much this idea when you pointed out they were drove out of the garden, they were escorted out of the garden.

And then I wrote to "come back better", that Moses 5 is all about coming back better. And the garment, how that connects to coming back better. And it just like, I can't wait to talk about that. That all of this is, it's the beautiful result of partaking of the fruit. That is all it is, the garments are a result, covenants, commandments, prayer. And just the idea that the Lord still spoke with Adam and Eve and Cain after they messed up. They just want us to come back better! So I love that. I, it was such a great discussion today. So good. Thank you. Oh, I prayed so hard. And it worked. God is so good. He loves us. And He loves the Old Testament. That was so good. So thank you, ladies.

All right, I have just got to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. So if you haven't joined our discussion group on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, go do it. Please go do it. Because it's such a great place to even say things throughout the week that you've learned. And then on Sunday, I always read your takeaways, which I love. And then I'll do my own favorite takeaway that somebody has shared. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and just let me know what you've learned.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS, and it's not a bad idea to go there. You're going to want to because we're going to have all the references we used today as well as a complete transcript of this whole discussion. You're going to want that so go check it out.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Desert Bookshelf Plus Original and it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study participant members were Jalyn Peterson and Melinda Wheelwright Brown, and you can find more information about these friends at LDS Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me. It's recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios and our Executive Producer is Erin Halstrom.

Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week. And you better believe this, that you are God's favorite. And they just want you to come back better.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:38:49

Well, I just had to close my candy drawer before we started because usually in the evenings while I work at my desk, I just eat candy all night and I was like, Oh, I got to remember not to eat during the podcast. Like, I wish I had a lot.

Tammy 1:39:02

Please eat! What kind of candy are you eating? What are we talking about?

Unknown Speaker 1:39:05

Oh, let's see here. The ones I was just working on is, M&Ms - sugar cookie.

Tammy 1:39:09

Ahhhh, those are so good.

Jalyn Peterson 1:39:12

Oh, sugar cookie. No, I've never had those.

Melinda Wheelwright Brown 1:39:15

Okay, well, here's the funny thing about me. I'm actually allergic to chocolate, but not white chocolate. So when Christmas comes, M&Ms come out with so many fun flavors that are white chocolate flavors that I can eat. And so my kids like seriously stocked me up for the year. So I'll be in good position with my drawer. What else do I have? I have Mike & Ikes. Mostly I just like sugar cookie.

Jalyn Peterson 1:39:41

Sure. I'm eating Werther’s, Werther’s candy. I don't know when I hit the age where old man candy is good, but it's delicious.