3: “The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers” (Joseph Smith—History 1:27–65; Doctrine and Covenants 2)
When you were young, did you ever get so excited when someone knocked on your door completely out of the blue? And wasn’t it even better when this unexpected guest brought something for you? In this week’s lesson, we’ll be studying in Doctrine and Covenants 2 and Joseph Smith—History 1:27–65 and what happened when Joseph Smith received an unexpected guest and the special message this visitor had for the future prophet.
Tammy's favorite Doctrine and Covenants resources
Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price Journal Editions
28 During the space of time which intervened between the time I had the vision and the year eighteen hundred and twenty-three—having been forbidden to join any of the religious sects of the day, and being of very tender years, and persecuted by those who ought to have been my afriends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me—I was left to all kinds of btemptations; and, mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish cerrors, and displayed the weakness of youth, and the foibles of human nature; which, I am sorry to say, led me into divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God. In making this confession, no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins. A disposition to commit such was never in my nature. But I was guilty of dlevity, and sometimes associated with jovial company, etc., not consistent with that character which ought to be maintained by one who was ecalled of God as I had been. But this will not seem very strange to any one who recollects my youth, and is acquainted with my native fcheery temperament (JS—H 1:28).
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a alight appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a bpersonage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor (JS—H 1:28).
Moroni's first visit: JS—H 1:31–43
Moroni's second visit: JS—H 1:44–45
Moroni's third visit: JS—H 1:46–48
Moroni's fourth visit: JS—H 1:49
- Wasted = Ruined, destroyed (see Webster's 1828 dictionary)
40 In addition to these, he quoted the aeleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that bprophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be ccut off from among the people,” but soon would come (JS—H 1:40).
1–6: Christ coming for the first time.
5–9: The Millennium
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the asecond time to brecover the cremnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the dislands of the sea (Isaiah 11:11).
- In that day = Now
- Second time: The first was when God delivered the children of Israel from Pharaoh (see Exodus 3:19–20).
- Recover: In Hebrew, the word recover means to purchase or acquire.
- Remnant: Members of the House of Israel who are scattered (Cross reference with 1 Nephi 10:14; 3 Nephi 20:13).
- Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, islands of the sea = the whole world.
- Ensign = The gospel of Jesus Christ
- Outcasts: In this context is a male word in Hebrew
- Dispersed: In this context is a female word in Hebrew
- Footnote A: The tribes led by Judah and Ephraim were historically adversaries (after events of 1 Kgs. 12:16–20). In the latter days this enmity will be healed. TG Envy.
15 And the Lord shall utterly adestroy the tongue of the bEgyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod (Isaiah 11:15).
- Tongue = gulf
Quote: For the more than 36 years I’ve been an Apostle, the doctrine of the gathering of Israel has captured my attention. (Footnote 1: I have spoken of Israel in at least 378 of the more than 800 messages I have delivered during my 36 years as an Apostle.) Everything about it has intrigued me, including the ministries and names2 of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; their lives and their wives; the covenant God made with them and extended through their lineage;3 the dispersion of the twelve tribes; and the numerous prophecies about the gathering in our day.
I have studied the gathering, prayed about it, feasted upon every related scripture, and asked the Lord to increase my understanding (President Russell M. Nelson, "Let God Prevail," October 2020 general conference).
He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that bprophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be ccut off from among the people,” but soon would come (JS—H 1:40).
1 Nephi 22:20
20 And the Lord will surely aprepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A bprophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be ccut off from among the people (1 Nephi 22:20).
23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: aA prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people (3 Nephi 20:23).
41 He also quoted the asecond chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be. And he further stated that the fulness of the bGentiles was soon to come in. He quoted many other passages of scripture, and offered many explanations which ccannot be mentioned here (JS—H 1:41).
28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will apour out my bspirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall cprophesy, your dold men shall edream dreams, your young men shall see fvisions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall acall on the name of bthe Lord shall be cdelivered: for in dmount eZion and in fJerusalem shall be gdeliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the hremnant whom the Lord shall icall (Joel 2:28–32).
Quote: "This is speaking of today. This is now. Teach this to your students, that they are entitled to visions and dreams" (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, CES broadcast, August 2002).
Quote: That scripture does not say that your sons and your daughters may claim the gift of prophecy by the Spirit. It says that they will. It doesn’t say that your young men may see visions. It says that they will. And it will come because the Lord will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. Not only will the youth you love and serve have the Spirit poured out on them, but so will the people around them and those who lead them” (President Henry B. Eyring, “CES Satellite Training Broadcast,” August 4, 2004).
"Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood," (JS—H 1:38).
Quote: "Joseph asked when he could have the plates.
“'The twenty-second day of September next,' Moroni said, 'if you bring the right person with you'” (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 3: Plates of Gold").
Quote: "Twenty-one-year-old Emma Hale first heard about Joseph Smith when he came to work for Josiah Stowell in the fall of 1825. Josiah had hired the young man and his father to help him find buried treasure on his property.1 Local legends claimed that a band of explorers had mined a silver deposit and hidden the treasure in the area hundreds of years earlier. Knowing Joseph had a gift for using seer stones, Josiah offered him good wages and a share of the findings if he would help in the search.2
". . . Joseph had tried to convince Josiah Stowell to call the search off when it became clear nothing would come of it.6 (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 4: Be Watchful").
56 In the year 1823 my father’s family met with a great aaffliction by the death of my eldest brother, bAlvin. In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, ithout success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger (JS—H 1:56).
Quote: "The angel also told him to bring someone with him next time. It was the same request he had made at the end of Joseph’s first visit to the hill. But since Alvin was dead, Joseph was confused.
“'Who is the right person?' he asked.
“'You will know,' Moroni said.
"Joseph sought the Lord’s direction through his seer stone. The right person, he learned, was Emma.10" (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 4: Be Watchful").
Quote: "Before returning to Harmony, Joseph spoke with his parents. 'I have concluded to get married,' he told them, 'and, if you have no objections, Miss Emma Hale would be my choice.' His parents were pleased with his decision, and Lucy urged him to come live with them after they married.13
"Joseph spent as much time as he could with Emma that winter, sometimes borrowing the Knights’ sleigh when snow made it hard to travel to the Hales’ house. But her parents still did not like him, and his efforts to win over the family failed.14
"In January 1827, Emma visited the Stowells’ home, where she and Joseph could spend time together without her family’s disapproving looks. Joseph proposed to Emma there, and at first, Emma seemed surprised. She knew her parents would oppose the marriage.15 But Joseph urged her to think about it. They could elope right away.
"Emma considered the proposal. Marrying Joseph would disappoint her parents, but it was her choice, and she loved him.16
"A short time later, on January 18, 1827, Joseph and Emma were married in the home of the local justice of the peace. They then went to Manchester and began life together in the new home of Joseph’s parents (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 4: Be Watchful").
Quote: "Emma soon appeared, dressed for riding, and she and Joseph climbed into Joseph Knight’s carriage and set out into the night.22 When they arrived at the hill, Emma waited with the carriage while Joseph climbed the slope to the place where the plates were hidden" (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 4: Be Watchful").
Quote: The day after he received the plates, Joseph went to work repairing a well in a nearby town to raise money for a lockbox. That same morning, while on an errand just over the hill from the Smith home, Joseph Sr. overheard a group of men plotting to steal the gold plates. . . .
"Alarmed, Joseph Sr. returned home and told Emma. She said she did not know where the plates were, but she was sure Joseph had protected them. . . .
"To be sure the plates were secure, Emma mounted a horse and rode for more than an hour to the farm where Joseph was working" (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 4: Be Watchful").
Quote: “The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him [Joseph Smith, Jr.] to fold them in. I once felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. … I did not attempt to handle the plates, other than I have told you, nor uncover them to look at them. I was satisfied that it was the work of God, and therefore did not feel it to be necessary to do so. … I moved them from place to place on the table, as it was necessary in doing my work” (The Saints’ Herald, 1 Oct. 1879, p. 290; spelling modernized, quoted by "Which Persons May Have Seen or Handled the Gold Plates?" ChurchofJesusChrist.org).
Quote: "In April 1828, Emma and Joseph were living in a home along the Susquehanna River, not far from her parents’ house.22 Now well along in her pregnancy, Emma often acted as Joseph’s scribe after he began translating the record. One day, while he translated, Joseph suddenly grew pale. 'Emma, did Jerusalem have a wall around it?' he asked.
“'Yes,' she said, recalling descriptions of it in the Bible.
“'Oh,' Joseph said with relief, 'I was afraid I had been deceived.'”23 (Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days, "Chapter 5: Be All Is Lost").
Quote: "I want you to be a good boy, and do everything that lies in your power to obtain the Record. Be faithful in receiving instruction, and in keeping every commandment that is given you. Your brother Alvin must leave you; but remember the example which he has set for you; and set the same example for the children that are younger than yourself, and always be kind to father and mother” (Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, ed. Preston Nibley , 87).
61 The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand tongues was all the time employed in circulating afalsehoods about my father’s family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of bMartin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability (JS—H 1:61).
- Fifty dollars in 1827 was equivalent to about $1,301.14 today (see officialdata.org).
Quote: “One of Martin Harris’s greatest contributions to the Church, for which he should be honored for all time, was his financing the publication of the Book of Mormon. In August 1829 he mortgaged his home and farm to Egbert B. Grandin to secure payment on the printer’s contract. Seven months later, the 5,000 copies of the first printing of the Book of Mormon were completed. Later, when the mortgage note fell due, the home and a portion of the farm were sold for $3,000" (President Dallin H. Oaks, "The Witness: Martin Harris," April 1999 general conference).
Quote: "In 1832 Martin Harris’s older brother, Emer, who is my great-great-grandfather, was called on a mission from Ohio (see D&C 75:30). Emer spent a year preaching the gospel near his former home in northeastern Pennsylvania. During most of this time Emer’s companion was his brother Martin, whose zeal in preaching even caused him to be jailed for a few days. The Harris brothers baptized about 100 persons. Among those baptized was a family named Oaks, which included my great-great-grandfather. Thus, my middle name and my last name come from the grandfathers who met in that missionary encounter in Susquehanna County in 1832–33" (President Dallin H. Oaks, "The Witness: Martin Harris," April 1999 general conference).
Quote: "In December 1869 William Homer, a brother-in-law to Martin Jr., visited with Martin Harris in Kirtland. At this time Martin was eighty-one years old, in reasonably good health, and was serving as a self-appointed guide for visitors to the abandoned Kirtland Temple. During his visit Homer toured the temple and listened to Martin’s witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. During the tour Martin said to Homer, 'I should like to see Caroline and the children, . . . but I cannot, I am too poor.' Homer reported this desire to Church leaders in Salt Lake City.
"Edward Stevenson, a Church representative, next visited Martin Harris. He arranged Church funding to assist Martin to leave Kirtland and move to Salt Lake City. They traveled by train and arrived in Ogden, Utah, on August 30, 1870. Local newspapers created considerable public attention by announcing Martin’s arrival in Salt Lake City. Caroline must have read about Martin’s arrival and public welcome as a faithful witness to the Book of Mormon. Brigham Young personally greeted Martin, and they reconciled their old differences. On September 17, 1870, Edward Stevenson rebaptized Martin, and on October 11 Martin received his temple endowment. At the age of eighty-eight, Martin had come home to live his remaining days with friends and family ( Dennis A. Wright, "Caroline Young Harris: The Kirtland Wife of Martin Harris," rsc.byu.edu).
Quote: "Who would have thought that the Book of Mormon would have done all this?” (Susan Easton Black, Who’s Who in the Doctrine and Covenants, 127).
"Upon his death, Martin was placed in his casket with a copy of the Book of Mormon in his right hand and a copy of the Doctrine & Covenants in the left to represent his role in financing the publication of the first editions of these two books of Latter-day Saint scripture1" ("Martin Harris Gravesite, Clarkston, Utah, USA, ensignpeakfoundation.org).
Hey, so when I was a kid and the doorbell would ring at my home, it was like running of the bulls in my house. It was like, "Vistors!" I mean, oftentimes, it even resulted in a physical fight to see who could be the first person to open the door.
So, last week, our doorbell rang. And my husband and I looked at each other and without even saying a word, we both knew what the other person was thinking. And we both shrugged our shoulders in an answer to, "Are you expecting anyone?" Like, "Not really."
And then we audibly both said, "Who could that be?" Like, "Who's visiting our home during a pandemic?" Well, luckily, today's study of Joseph Smith—History 1:27—65 is about a visitor who I think we would definitely welcome into our home, and even probably fight to open the door for.
Welcome to the "Sunday on Monday" study group, a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the "Come, Follow Me" lesson, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac. Hall.
Now, if you're new to our study group, go to the link that's in the description and click on it because it's going to tell you some other ways that you can use this podcast. You can use it by yourself or with your family. And if you're like the Clay, Cherados family, you're going to use it together. And today's amazing guests are Jenny Reeder and Chere Clark. Hi, ladies!
Jenny Reeder 1:13
Chere Clarke 1:14
This is a fun friendship. I've been so excited for this episode for a long time because I love you both. And I love your work. So, Chere and Jenny, how do you guys know each other? Tell me your story?
Chere Clarke 1:26
Well, should I start Jenny?
Jenny Reeder 1:29
Yes, go first.
Chere Clarke 1:30
Okay, so in 2011, I graduated from BYU in American Studies. And my goal was to work with early-Mormon history. And so I really wanted to work at the Church History Library.
Well, if you don't have a master's degree, you're not going to get to the Church History Library. So I actually prayed and told Heavenly Father, "This is what I want to do. And the only way I'm going to get there is through you opening up the doors."
And I liked the Church History Library page on Facebook. And one day, there was a message from Jenny that she'd put on there looking for volunteers to help with this "At the Pulpit" project on finding discourses for Mormon women.
And unbeknownst to me, she was kind of out.
Jenny Reeder 2:22
I suddenly became sequestered at LDS Hospital.
Chere Clarke 2:25
Yes, she did.
Jenny Reeder 2:26
Chere Clarke 2:27
So my son, who went on a mission to Canada, had a gal come to dinner and she worked with Jenny at the Church History Library. And I said, "Do you know her?" And she said, "Yeah." and I said, "I've been trying to get on this project, and I can't get ahold of her." So she said, "I'll put in a good word for you." So she told Jenny to get ahold of me. And she did. And we set up a time for me to meet and then she was gone. She was in LDS Hospital. So I actually ended up getting on the project with just another gal named Emily, the two of us just worked on it for about a year and a half until Jenny came back. And then I got to meet her. And I've been with her ever since.
Jenny Reeder 3:14
I am the luckiest. Like, they did a lot of the work before I was able to get back into the project. And then we worked like crazy together. And it was so nice to come back and have work already done. And then we were all on the same page. And we've been on the same page ever since.
Well and Jenny is a 19th century women's history specialist for the Church History Department. And so as we were preparing today's lesson, I thought who better to have than the two of you as we introduce Emma into our narrative and into our foundation of faith. I'm so excited. I just want to skip straight to the, to the end of the segment.
Jenny Reeder 3:53
Let's spend the whole time talking about Emma.
Totally. Maybe that'll be our special Easter episode all about Emma. But don't worry, everyone, I'm going to have Jenny back, and if we can get Chere, for section 25 about Emma and that's all we're gonna do is talk about Emma and section 25. So that's coming up pretty soon. So, I'm just so excited. This is gonna be really fun today.
If you want to find out more information or see pictures of my friends, you can read their bios, you find those in our show notes, which is at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
So like I said, I've been looking so forward to this episode because of who these women are. And it's just going to be fun. So there's nothing else to say. Just grab your scriptures and let's dig in. Here we go.
So did you guys like that intro about the running of the bulls in my house? Was it like that for you guys?
Jenny Reeder 4:43
Oh, totally. That, that and the phone, when the phone rang.
Chere Clarke 4:48
Always. I grew up with seven kids so yes.
Now have you guys ever had an unexpected guest show up, though?
Jenny Reeder 4:54
Yeah, so this is really funny because this just happened last week. I'd gotten a Facebook message from someone and he said he was, we talked about a book that he was gonna bring me in. And I completely forgot. And the doorbell rang and I'm like, "Who's that? Who's coming to my house in the pandemic, right?" And I went downstairs and open the door and there he was with this book. It was a, it was volume two of Eliza's, Eliza R. Snow's poems, and it was the first edition. And I was like, "Oh my gosh! I'm so excited!"
What a great gift. So an unexpected guest with a gift.
Jenny Reeder 5:34
I'll take that any time, that's for sure.
Chere Clarke 5:38
Well, I was thinking about this, and I have to go back to my childhood The door bell rang and my parents said, "You go answer the door." And I went, and it was Santa Claus. And it was the best thing. And I remember grabbing his hand and bringing him in, and showing him my house. And it was just like the best gift ever.
Well, your stories are perfect because we're going to go into Joseph Smith—History and find out who the, and this is kind of cool, who the unexpected guest was for Joseph Smith that brought gifts.
So let's go into Joseph Smith—History 1. And we're going to start up in verse 28. In this verse, Joseph Smith is telling us something about himself. And he's like, I'm kind of naughty. I did some stupid things as a kid. And I love the wording that he uses in here when he says, there's a dash. Go to the very middle and there's a word me with a dash. And that says, "I was left," you see that? Jenny, will you read that?
Jenny Reeder 6:36
Yeah, "I was left to all kinds of temptations and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors, and displayed the weakness of youth and the foibles of human nature."
Isn't that great?
Jenny Reeder 6:51
Yes. I love it.
I love the words "foibles of human nature." Can any of you relate to that? Were any of you that way as teenagers or kids?
Chere Clarke 6:59
Jenny Reeder 7:02
I'm like that now.
Totally. And I love how he says at the bottom, he's like, "Now no one need suppose me guilty of any great or malignant sins." I love that, in my mind, I'm thinking, "Listen, I didn't kill a man." That's how I interpret it. I may have messed up a few times.
So we get to see the human nature of him. He's like, "I'm not perfect. I messed up." And he wants to know if he can be forgiven of all the stupid things that he has done as a young teenager. He's 17 at the time.
Jenny Reeder 7:31
I love that he says, "I was guilty of levity, and sometimes associated with jovial company," because that doesn't seem that bad to me. It just seems like a kid. I mean, I like levity and jovial company myself. But I also love that he was just a real person that he was a real kid. He wasn't like this perfect, quiet, hard-working kid who did everything hisparents told him to do.
Okay, I'm gonna laugh right now because I purposely skipped over that part.
Jenny Reeder 8:01
No, no, no vecause when I read it, I'm like, "That's me, and turn page." I'm like, I don't want to talk about that because I do that. I'm very jovial. Levity should be my middle name. So I was like, "Yeah, we'll just skip over that part." We'll just talk about how he didn't kill anybody. Anyway, thanks, Jenny. Yeah, no, I love that you brought that up because you're absolutely right. Like, he's just this kid. And of course, we all can relate. And so he's going to ask for forgiveness. That's his only goal and he gets on his knees and starts to pray. And while he's praying, let's go to verse 30. And Chere, will you please read the very beginning of verse 30?
Chere Clarke 8:37
While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
Now verses 31 and 32 are going to tell us what he looked like. But then verse 33 I want to look at. It tells us his name. So look at verse 33, scan your eyes and tell me who came to visit Joseph Smith?
Jenny Reeder 9:10
Circle that name, Moroni. So there are four visits that Moroni makes to Joseph Smith. The first three are in his room, and the last one is going to be out in the field working with his dad. So we're going to go through and mark these really quick so you know where they are and then we're going to study them.
So what I've done is I've just kind of, to the outside of my scriptures, I've done a little marking, and I put a number one for the first visit. The first visit begins in verse 31. So I highlighted that, drew number one, and it goes until the end of verse 43. So that's the first visit. And then the second visit, let's mark that. The second visit begins in verse 44. So I started there with the new bracket system, 44 go down and put a number two there. That visit lasts until the end of verse 45. The third visit starts in verse 46 and ends end of 47, beginning of 48. And then the fourth visit, which is not in the room, this fourth visit takes place out in the field. And that is in verse 49. And that's it. So just kind of bracket verse 49, and put visit four.
So after marking all these visits, here's what we need to know. In each one of these visits, Joseph says Moroni recited the same thing as before. And so I went back and I read these. And it's been kind of fun because I've been studying with my Hebrew teacher, and the question that we kept asking was, why? Why these specific verses of scripture, there's four of them that he repeats over and over again.
Chere Clarke 10:40
It makes you realize just how important repetition is to remember the things that you need to do. And obviously, he was trying to make it really clear that this is something so important. Your sins are forgiven but, hey, this is something you really need to remember.
Excellent, Chere. I love that you brought up that repetition is important because we've studied that number in Hebrew and three is, if something is said three times, you better pay attention.
And so I went through and I studied these, and I think I've come up with an equation of why he gave these four things. So, Jenny, we're going to do some public math throughout today.
Jenny Reeder 11:18
Jenny and I hate public math. But this is a scripture equation so I think you and I can handle this. In fact, my kids, they openly tell people, "Yeah, my mom's not good at math. and she has a master's degree from BYU."
Anyway, so we're gonna start out with this equation. And we're going to begin in the next segment.
Segment 2 11:40
How are you two when it comes to genealogy? Because the teenager in me right now is going blah, blah, blah, genealogy. Let's just get it. All right. All right, I get it.
Jenny Reeder 12:00
It's funny because, honestly, I feel like all my genealogy has been done. Like, I have, like, super genealogy grandmothers or whatever.
Chere Clarke 12:10
Jenny Reeder 12:12
But we've been writing a book about my great-grandmother. And she passed away right after I got home from my mission. And so my grandmother and her sister were working on it, and then her sister passed away. And then my grandmother and me and my mom and my mom's cousin, we're working on it and my grandmother passed away. And so now it's just the three of us. And we're like, "Oh, we don't know when that flood happened. We don't know when this happened." And there's no one to tell us.
Chere Clarke 12:39
Well, and you know, I've really been trying to work on a project where I take family stories and condense them. So they're like bedtime stories, and put them all in a book. And I'm trying to put that all together so I can give that to all of my family members. So they can have like a little bedtime story to tell each of their kids and it's all about our family members.
Jenny Reeder 13:01
That is such a good idea.
I like that. Well, I have to admit, like, after reading this, the teenager in me had to repent because my genealogy hasn't been done on my Uzelac side. I mean, I think some of it has, but there's a lot to do. And so I do need to repent, especially after studying this chapter and what's happening. And in light of what the prophet has been saying today, every time he gets up and talks about the gathering of Israel, there's something in me that I'm like, "Alright, I might need to look into this."
So let's go into Joseph Smith—History 1 because right out of the gates, the first thing that Moroni is going to teach Joseph about is this idea of genealogy and the classic, quintessential genealogy scriptures.
So we're gonna go to Joseph Smith—History 1, verses 36, 37 and 38. Now, I want you to put a cross reference, and just right into the side right there, D&C 2.
So Doctrine and Covenants section two is a really short section. And in the section heading, it specifically tells us that section two is, "An extract from Joseph Smith—History relating the words of the angel Moroni to Joseph Smith the Prophet, while in the house of the Prophet's, father in Manchester" on September 21, 1823.
Jenny Reeder 14:14
I think this is so interesting because I didn't realize this was an extract from Joseph Smith—History. And I think it's interesting to think about why they decided to place it in the Doctrine and Covenants and why they decided to place it here. We know section one is like a preface, right?
Jenny Reeder 14:31
So section two, which is the Elijah and the Malachai pomise, is right there from the very beginning. And I think it's fascinating that that leads out the Doctrine and Covenants.
Absolutely, Jenny, I love that you said that because that is part of the equation that we're going to discover today. That's so powerful. Okay. Everyone, keep that in your mind. Like yes, the first revelation they're putting is an extract. So let's study these verses.
It's kind of fun because every section has a specific title or name to it, like section one we call the "Lord's Preface." Section two is called "The Coming of Elijah." And these were taught to me by the greatest Doctrine and Covenants historian, in my opinion, my mission president, Randy Bought. He taught at BYU, I love him, and he taught us how to memorize what is in each section by giving us these little titles, and it works. So you can use it if you want, I use it. So two is called "The Coming of Elijah."
Alright, let's jump into verse one. And, Jenny, will you please read verse one?
Jenny Reeder 15:34
Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Alright, highlight the word will. And above it, put D&C 110 because he's saying I will, meaning I'm not doing it right now but I'm going to. In fact, it'll be 12 years from this visit from Moroni to Joseph Smith that this is going to happen. And in Section 110, Elijah comes to the temple, it's one, I can't wait to get to that section. So this is a future word I will in the future reveal to you the priesthood. And this is the fullness of the sealing power and what we're talking about by priesthood.
Jenny Reeder 16:13
Can I add something?
Jenny Reeder 16:15
I love that. I don't do public math, how many years later is it? This is 1823 and he comes in 1836, right?
Jenny Reeder 16:24
So that's 12 years. And I think it's so interesting, because I think so often, when we're told that something's going to happen, we think it's going to happen right now. But we see through time that this takes time. And I love that. I love that it helps me see my patriarchal blessing and other priesthood blessings in different ways, that this is going to take some time. It's not going to happen immediately.
Chere Clarke 16:49
I love that he says, "I will reveal" and not restore. The sealing power is going to be revealed. It's not being restored. If it was being restored, it could be done by Peter, James and John.
Jenny Reeder 17:02
That's so cool.
Chere Clarke 17:04
But he's revealing something that's going to be totally new. And I think that's part of the reason why it's so important that he told him this so many times.
Ah, that's so cool, Chere!
Chere Clarke 17:16
Good job, you.
Jenny Reeder 17:19
And I think that the gift of sealing was, in fact, something that we saw in the Old Testament, was the sealing, the heavens, but I think this one's different because it's sealing, continuing families.
Chere Clarke 17:33
It's the linking is the linking of everything.
Yes, it's new.
Chere Clarke 17:38
And you think about that, too, is that, you know, Heavenly Father, when we were up there, deciding to come down to earth, He promised us that all of us would get the chance to hear the gospel and be together as a family. And this is what Elijah is doing is he's helping Heavenly Father bring about that promise that he gave us all.
Jenny Reeder 18:01
You know, it's also interesting to look at how Joseph Smith uses the word seal. And in the beginning, he uses it to seal up to heaven, or just seal up to celestial glory. And it's not until later in the 1840s that he's talking about sealing people together.
That was new, it had not been done. That was excellent. So good. Thank you for pointing that out. That's great.
And also in here, then, we're going to do great and dreadful day of the Lord to separate things. So I put a one by great, a two by dreadful, and we've just always heard people say it'll either be great or dreadful, depending on your situation, depending on how jovial you are, right?
Chere Clarke 18:44
How much levity there is.
How much levity there is. Okay, now, here's where it changes for me in verse two. And when I took some of these words and figured out what they meant, then I was like, I love this verse. So, Jenny, read verse two.
Jenny Reeder 18:59
And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
Okay, so here's a couple of words we need to know. Promises. Let's start with that. Well, I mean, even plant. If we just started with plant. This isn't going to be easy. It's not like a just throwing a seed out there. Like it's gonna require some effort. So he's going to plant in the hearts of the children the promises, highlight that. These are the Abrahamic covenant promises—LDS: land, deliverance and seed. Those are the Abrahamic promises. So right here, he's going to plant in the hearts of the children, the promises, the Abrahamic Covenant made to the fathers, highlight that word. Those fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So that's what I'm saying. He's going to plant in the hearts of the children the Abrahamic covenant that was made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, comma and the hearts of the children. Now that is us. And anyone adopted into the house of Israel, which is our whole goal, then the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.
And then verse three, "If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming." Highlight wasted. This word means completely destroyed. And so I want to know, just your thoughts about this and tell me, especially, how do you interpret the idea of being wasted or destroyed? Is that significant to you when it comes to this verse?
Jenny Reeder 20:29
It is significant, I think, because I also think of how I go to the grocery store and buy fresh fruits and vegetables. And a lot of times I don't eat them all. And they're wasted and they're rotten. They make a stink. And I eat trail mix and chips and popcorn instead of eating fresh fruits and vegetables. And they're wasted, and they're lost. And it's a waste of money. And it's a waste of good food.
Chere Clarke 21:01
Well, and the food didn't fulfill its purpose, right?
Jenny Reeder 21:04
Chere Clarke 21:05
And that's the whole, that's the whole point of it.
Chere's on fire today.
Jenny Reeder 21:10
I know, she's on fire every day, almost there.
Yes, oh I like that. They didn't, you're absolutely right. In fact, I'm going to put that my scriptures, "didn't fulfill its purpose." Hold, please.
Chere Clarke 21:21
I think, too, that, we have to think about what was the earth's purpose? What was it created for? Well, it was created for us to live together as families eternally. You know, celestial beings to live on this earth, that's its whole purpose.
Jenny Reeder 21:40
And also to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
Chere Clarke 21:44
Jenny Reeder 21:45
Chere Clarke 21:48
So unless it fulfills its purpose, it's going to be wasted.
So what's so cool about these verses, and from what we've talked, taking in everything you guys have said, this has been such a good discussion, is, I've always just assumed it meant yada yada yada genealogy work, I gotta get sealed. But it's so much bigger. This is about bringing all of God's children to the knowledge of the Abrahamic Covenant into the house of Israel to be adopted in so that we can all be sealed back to the family of Jesus Christ. I think this is the thesis statement of the Doctrine and Covenants, and every section will lead us to being sealed to the family of Christ. Everything the Lord's asking us to do is to return back to live with him again, to become part of the house of Abraham, the whole part of the house of Isaac and Jacob, and to receive those Abrahamic covenants.
Jenny Reeder 22:36
Can I add something?
Jenny Reeder 22:37
A couple things because as I was reading this last night, I realized a couple of things. First of all, I love the idea of planting because it reminds me of Alma 32, and planting this seed, but it also reminds me of Jacob five, and how the Lord of the vineyard plants his trees in different places of the vineyard so that they will produce the best fruit. But I also think of the Book of Mormon in verse two, and how many promises the Lord made to people in the early days of the Book of Mormon that the word would be brought to their seed in their posterity, and that they would come to understand the role of Jesus Christ. And I think that's such a significant promise. The promises made to the fathers will come to the children.
Thank you, Jenny.
What you shared is significant. I loved that. Thank you ladies. That was good discussion. Every, wow, this is good. This is good.
Okay, so in the next segment, then we're going to study the next scripture that Moroni recites and hopefully we're going to start to see a connection.
Segment 3 23:47
Okay, let's go back to Joseph Smith—History 1. And I want you to grab your Old testament because we're just going to go straight institute style for this. So earlier, I had you guys number the visits that Moroni made to Joseph Smith, which we're for now we're going to start a whole new numbering system because I love to number things. And we're going to number the scripture references that Moroni speaks to Joseph. So verse 36, I just put a small little number one, because that's the malikai scripture that's recited. So here's our second scripture. It's next to verse 40. In Joseph Smith history 140. Put a little number two right there. And here's what Moroni then recites to him Sheree, will you please read for us? Joseph Smith history one, verse 42, the word fulfilled.
Chere Clarke 24:45
In addition to these he quoted the 11th chapter of Isaiah saying that it was about to be fulfilled.
Alright, so I put a number to Next I have lots of numbers, because my first one number one was malikai. Number two is Isaiah chapter 11. So we have to go to Isaiah 11. Like why would the world would Moroni quote Isaiah chapter 11 of all the Old Testament Scriptures. So then I went to Isaiah 11 studied it, read it, define words in Hebrew. And I just thought, of course, this is so cool. So let's go to Isaiah chapter 11. And we're gonna mark it up. In the section heading, it says, compared to second Nephi 21. I also want you to add Doctrine and Covenants 113. So put DMC 113 and Joseph Smith history one. So here's what you need to know about Isaiah chapter 11. In verses one through, basically six, it speaks solely about Jesus Christ. So when he says it's about to be fulfilled, we know that Isaiah is not speaking about these verses Christ has come.
Jenny Reeder 25:47
So then what's cool about these verses, Tammy, tell me, please. He's talking about this rod growing from the stem of Jesse and a branch growing from the roots, which goes back to this whole idea of going allocate planting. So the same metaphor, I love
it, that's a great connection. So awesome. Okay, so mark those about Christ, then we have the millennium. And the Millennium is going to be verses five through nine. Now that will be fulfilled. And then we have starting in verse 11. And this is what we really need to go through and find out what the words mean, and why he would say this to Joseph Smith. So starting in verse 11, it says, And it shall come to pass that in that day, highlight in that day, we've discovered, studying Book of Mormon, that that means today, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time, so highlight second time, when it says, The Lord shall set his hand again the second time, when was the first time? Well, it's Exodus chapter three, verses 19 through 20, when the Lord is speaking of Moses, saying, Listen, I'm about to deliver your people out of the hand of Pharaoh. So that's the first time and now he's going to do it a second time, it says, to recover, highlight that word, because in Hebrew, that word recover means to purchase or to acquire. So he's saying that second time I will come to purchase or acquire or make my own these are these people will become mine. And here's who is going to recover. It says the remnant of his people highlight the word remnant, the word remnant in Scripture, it means members of the House of Israel, who are scattered abroad upon the face of the earth. And you can cross reference that with first Nephi, Chapter 10, verse 14, you can cross reference it with Third Nephi, Chapter 20, verse 13,
Jenny Reeder 27:35
tell me, can I ask Can I say something? I also love the word recover. Because I think it also it means to gather to recover to bring back to its original state. But when you break up the word in English, it means to re cover. And to re cover. We know that the Hebrew word for atonement is to cover right. Yes, sir. He's right. Gotcha. So he's going to cover us again.
Unknown Speaker 28:06
Yes, that is pretty well, and when you said to re gather, okay, that is so cool. Because that's, that is the whole purpose of that word remnant is to gather in members of the House of Israel. That's what he's doing in this first gathering his people. And then he says, which shall be left? Now this is weird. You're like, which we left from Syria for major from pafos, from Cush, from Elam, from shinar, from Hamas, from the islands of the sea, like what is all that? That is a scriptural term? It's a grouping basically, just to mean the whole world. And so when you read that you don't even know where all those places are, other than knowing that Isaiah is saying, we're going to gather those people who are left from the entire world, no one's going to be missed. We're going to gather everybody,
Jenny Reeder 28:53
all parts of the vineyard,
yes, every single part, every single part. And then verse 12, says, and he shall set up an enzyme highlight that, it does not mean the magazine that will come to your home and sit in plastic until your home teachers come over.
Jenny Reeder 29:06
It means based loosely on a true story.
What is this right there he shall set up and design is the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what that enzyme is. He's going to set up the gospel for the nation. So remember, he's saying this to a 17 year old boy, who is not even I mean, he's going to do this. And he's going to set up the gospel of Jesus Christ for the nations and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gathered together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Now in Hebrew, the word outcasts in its context here is a male word. And the word dispersed in Hebrew is a female word. No way. It's not fun. The way it's translated is a male translation and a female translation. So basically, what's that saying? Who's going to gather everybody?
Jenny Reeder 29:58
Wow, I love That good job
you chop Hebrew Thank you. Okay now we have now 13 fun because I really like we're going to use the footnote down below because it just perfectly says what 13 is about because you read it says, the envy also of Ephraim shall depart and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off. Ephraim shall not envy Judah and Judah shall not Beck's Ephraim and you're like want. So down in the footnote we read that Sheree,
Chere Clarke 30:24
the tribes led by Judah and Ephraim were historically adversaries after events of First Kings 1216 through 20. In the latter days, this enmity will be healed. Thank you. And that's what that's talking about. In verse 13, it will be healed because of Christ because of his recovering abilities.
I love it. I'm so proud of you for making that connection to recover to kuffaar.
Jenny Reeder 30:50
It just can't be it's so it just came to me why I love this, all of this. If the atonement all of this is the atonement,
it is. And then verses 15 and 16: "And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue," highlight the word tongue right there. It's actually gulf, "and the Lord shall utterly destroy the gulf of the Egyptian sea."
Now, what is that making reference to? You know, the gulf of the Egyptian sea is when Moses parted of that. So this, these two verses are making reference to, going back to the first time he recovered his people.
So he's stamping this again as, I said I would do it. And here's why I did it the first time, so I can do it again. And that's entirely what 15 and 16 is speaking of. So that is Isaiah 11.
Okay. Was that so powerful?
Jenny Reeder 31:35
Yes. And we see that over and over again in the Book of Mormon, where he promises them that he will gather their seed.
Chere Clarke 31:43
I think about Elder Uchtdorf's talk about how with the pandemic, we were so entrenched in the way of doing missionary work of gathering Israel that it took almost a pandemic to have us figure out different ways to gather and be more successful because we have to reach all four corners of the earth like it's talking about.
Oh, that was great insight as well.
So when we talk about these things, we have to read this quote by our prophet. He gave it in October 2020 general conference because here's what we have. So now we have the sealing power, which is going to save us from destruction. And then Moroni tells us we need to make sure that everyone is covered, and saved so let's gather them in. We have sealing, gathering and here's what the prophet had to say about this idea of gathering. Jenny, will you read this quote from President Nelson?
Jenny Reeder 32:36
"For the more than 36 years I’ve been an Apostle, the doctrine of the gathering of Israel has captured my attention. (Footnote 1: I have spoken of Israel in at least 378 of the more than 800 messages I have delivered during my 36 years as an Apostle.) Everything about it has intrigued me, including the ministries and names of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; their lives and their wives; the covenant God made with them and extended through their lineage; the dispersion of the twelve tribes; and the numerous prophecies about the gathering in our day.
"I have studied the gathering, prayed about it, feasted upon every related scripture, and asked the Lord to increase my understanding."
I love that he's into the numbers, too. I mean, he's gone through and counted how many times he's referred to it.
That astounded me.
Jenny Reeder 33:34
No kidding. Well, also more than 800 talks he's given in his life. Wow, good heavens. And I love the way he's still methodical about it. He is not only looking at just the term or the idea of gathering, but the ministries and names of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their lives and their wives. And what specific covenants were given, and what the dispersion of the 12 tribes meant.
Okay, so Jenny, here's where the public math comes in. And, Chere, you just admitted, you are not good at public math either. I'm not good at math either. So here's as good as I can get. We have what we just talked about, we have the sealing power, so that everyone can be covered plus gathering. So we make gotta make sure we get everybody so they can be sealed + x + y = ?.
How's that for a pretty good algebraic equation, you like that? You feel any pressure?
Chere Clarke 34:32
I feel a fog coming on in my brain.
If you have your journals, give some space. But let's keep this equation going: sealing power + gathering power + x + y = what?
So in the next segment, we're going to see what Acts and Joel have to do with this Moroni equation. That's what I'm going to call it from here on out. Let's figure this out. This can be fun.
Segment 4 34:59
Alright, so I may be a little bit too excited about the next scripture that Moroni shares, because I love to teach it. I refer to it almost all that anytime I can. Anytime I teach, I want to talk about this because it's like you said, Jenny, we pointed this out, it's repeated several times. This specific scripture is in the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. So it must be pretty important.
Let's go to Joseph Smith—History 1. And we're going to read the rest of verse 40. And, Jenny, will you read that for us?
Jenny Reeder 35:34
He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come.
This is like the mother of all scriptures for me because it is so profound. We have to understand this teaching.
There's an awesome scripture chain that we use to teach this. And it starts in Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verses 18 through 20. So I'm going to show you the references in scripture so we can find out why would he quotes this.
Okay, so start in Deuteronomy, chapter 18, verses 18 through 20. And, Chere, will you please read, and basically, we just need 18 for this.
Chere Clarke 36:22
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Okay, so we have this idea right here, he's gonna raise up a prophet. Now when we read this, we think, "Oh, yeah, like President Nelson and all these different prophets." But we learned something when Moroni spoke because he said, the prophet is Christ.
So above that verse, you're going to put Acts, chapter three verses 22 and 23. This is exactly what Moroni quoted. And, Jenny, will you read that for us?
Jenny Reeder 36:57
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
So that verse that we read is citing the Deuteronomy 18:18 verse that we read, but now there's something new. Those people who don't hear the words of the prophet, what will happen?
Jenny Reeder 37:28
They'll be destroyed.
Jenny Reeder 37:30
They'll be wasted.
Yeah, it seems harsh, huh? So let's do another scripture reference. So let's put 1 Nephi chapter 22, verse 20, and, Chere, will you read that for us?
Chere Clarke 37:42
And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
Now rather than destroyed, we have this new phrase, "cut off." And that is used all throughout the Book of Mormon. It says that if you don't keep the commandments, you'll be cut off, cut off cut off, which seems so harsh, and it is.
So now cross referenced that verse two 3 Nephi. In chapter 20, verse 23, Christ comes to visit the Nephites and now Christ is going to quote this specific scripture. So turn to 3 Nephi chapter 20. And ,Jenny, will you read that for us?
Jenny Reeder 38:35
Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
So now who is it that we should be hearing?
Jenny Reeder 38:58
Chere Clarke 38:59
Christ. And if we don't listen to him, we are going to be cut off.
And then we have Joseph Smith—History. And we read it already, but I want to go back to that, knowing what we know now. He says, "they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among my people, but soon would come." Like that day hadn't happened yet.
To me, that says so much. That no one's been cut off yet. I always joke I was a professional cutter offer when I was a kid. I mean, I'd someone's smoking, like, you're out, you're out. You didn't make it off.
And I think we need to realize when that says, no one's been cut off. We're not even talking about people who are alive. We're talking about the dead. In the spirit world, they're still getting a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's why we're doing the work for them, right?
Jenny Reeder 39:49
And I think it's only fair, if God is a just God and a fair god, it's only fair that he gives all these opportunities and all these chances.
Chere Clarke 40:00
It also tells us how much he loves us. How much he wants us to succeed and return back to him, and actually succeed at the whole mission that we started from when we decided to come down to this earth. He's giving us every chance to succeed.
Yeah, every chance. And you know, I was talking to my daughter a couple weeks ago about this, and she, in her mind, thought everyone had already been assigned to a kingdom. And I was like, "No, no one's been assigned yet. No one. Everyone still has chances." And that blew her mind. She's like, "What?" Like, yeah, no, so if you mess up, you can, you still have a chance. No one's been cut off yet.
And so I just love the message of this. So now you're we have, "Okay, sealing. Let's make sure everyone's covered. Plus, now let's go gather everybody. So they have a chance. Plus, oh, by the way, Joseph, no one's been cut off. There's no one beyond the reach of the Atonement. So go find everybody, and including people who are dead, which I'm going to introduce you to later. And you'll figure that out. And now we have another plus the equation, plus this scripture in verse 41.
Go to Joseph Smith—History 1:41. It's perfect that he would give us this is the last verse. And I'll read this.
He also quoted the asecond chapter of Joel, from the twenty-eighth verse to the last. He also said that this was not yet fulfilled, but was soon to be.
Okay, I love this scripture in Joel. So I have to show you guys this picture. And I'm wondering if any of you can relate with this. This is a meme and it makes me laugh. So for those of you listening, go to our show notes. And you can see the picture that I'm showing our guests. And so for those of you who don't see, it's a picture of this cute little girl and she looks kind of sleepy, dazed and confused and her hair is a mess. And above the picture it says, "Me in the morning trying to process the intense symbolism that appeared in my dreams." Have you ever woken up from a dream feeling like that?
Jenny Reeder 41:49
Oh, all the time, this morning I did.
Chere Clarke 41:54
Wow, what, what dream did you have, Jenny?
Jenny Reeder 41:57
I can't remember. I can't, now I can't remember. But I can remember yesterday's dream. I was just like what?
Was it super vivid?
Jenny Reeder 42:05
Lately they have been like super vivid, and sometimes they're repetitive. Like not exactly the same, but the same situation.
Jenny Reeder 42:14
Chere Clarke 42:17
That looks like me in the morning thinking about my dreams is what kept me awake all night is what?
That's what I look like because I couldn't sleep.
Chere Clarke 42:28
Exactly. All the things.
I love it.
Okay, well, let's go to the scripture in Joel that Moroni quoted then and find out what it has to do with dreams. Oh, this is a good one, too. I love it.
So go to Joel in your Old Testament. And he quoted Joel chapter two, verses 28 through 32. And they're so fun. So, Chere, will you please read verse 28?
Chere Clarke 42:51
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Perfect. Now, highlight that verse because Moroni recites that to Joseph Smith. Dreams, visions, and it's so amazing because he says right here, it has not yet been fulfilled. But we're going to change that now.
So I have two quotes for you. One is from Elder Neal A. Maxwell. In an August 2002 CES conference, I was there for that conference. I heard him say this, it was for seminary teachers and Elder Maxwell had us turn to Joel chapter two. And he had us highlight verse 28, he read that verse to us. And then he said, quote, "This is speaking of today. This is now. Teach this to your students, that they are entitled to visions and dreams."
And then we have this other cool quote by Henry B. Eyring, and this is in August of 2004. Jenny, will you read this that he said about these verses?
Jenny Reeder 43:53
"That scripture does not say that your sons and your daughters may claim the gift of prophecy by the Spirit. It says that they will. It doesn’t say that your young men may see visions. It says that they will. And it will come because the Lord will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. Not only will the youth you love and serve have the Spirit poured out on them, but so will the people around them and those who lead them.”
Thank you. And so then, because people are like, "Well, then how do I know if my crazy dream is real? Or if it's going to land me in prison, right?" So you have to think, what kind of dreams are we talking about? What is the purpose of dreams in this context of sealing and gathering and no one's been cut off? What kind of dreams are we talking about?
Chere Clarke 44:41
Maybe dreams of your ancestors coming to you giving you information.
Jenny Reeder 44:47
I have a good story. So this is in the year 2010 in the month of October, and I was in graduate school, I lived in DC, and I was having some weird health issues. I had just been called as Relief Society President and I thought I was just stressed out. And I told my mom about this. And she told me that grandma had a dream that granddad, my grandfather who had passed away, came to her and said, "Jenny needs to go to the doctor." And I did, I went to the doctor, and it turned out I had leukemia. And if it had waited any longer, I would have died. And I think that particular dream was really an example of the hearts of the children turning to their fathers and the fathers to the children. It was my grandfather, who was looking out for me and had such great concern and care for me.
Chere Clarke 45:48
For sure. When you consider all the work you've done in your lifetime since that diagnosis.
Chere Clarke 45:55
Well, and it just makes you know that the feelings of our families continue. It's just like, when Joseph Smith had the revelation of the same sociality will still stay in, you know, on the other side is the same. Your grandfather's love did not diminish at all. And he's still the right there with you.
Jenny Reeder 46:17
Thank goodness, right? I miss him and I loved him.
Oh, Jenny, that was a powerful story. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad that came to you.
So tell me, why would the Lord recite the scriptures to Joseph and to us now? What do you think he's trying to tell us?
Jenny Reeder 46:35
You know, I thought of something that we didn't talk about when we were reading the scripture from Malachai is in Joseph Smith—History one, verse 38. But it's also in Doctrine and Covenants, "Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood." And it's a capital P priesthood. And it makes me think that this is the power of God sent to recover and gather his children, and to give them all the second chances that they need.
And I think about the power of the Abrahamic covenant is that the sands of the sea, and the stars of the sky, will be the part of that posterity, but they will all be gathered in that will all be gathered in. And even if I can't see that with my eyes today, you know, sometimes I worry because I, my cancer is prevented me from ever being able to bear children. But I know that that promise will come to pass, and that I've been gathered in, and that I can gather others. And as I multiply and replenish the earth and fulfill the measure of my creation, I think this is all part of that. And all part of the priesthood with a capital P.
I agree. I'm going to say amen to everything you just said. Amen. Chere, do you have anything to add?
Chere Clarke 47:57
Well, I've been thinking about how it talks about the sons and your daughters shall prophecy. And it makes me think about, I work at with the young adults down at BYU in a YSA ward. They are amazing. And I think about the youth in our ward and our missionaries, they've been saved for this day. We're talking about the best of the best, the cream of the crop is here for this day to help gather Israel. It just comes naturally to them to be able to teach and to prophesy and to have these kind of spiritual experiences because they're more in tune to those kinds of things. They've been prepared for that before they came down here.
Jenny Reeder 48:41
And also, I can't imagine someone better working with them than you, Chere. You're so good. You see, so clearly, you understand them and see so clearly, you're so good at that.
You can tell by the way she talks about them how she just, right now, I wish you could see her face, just beaming, as she talks about youth. That's awesome.
So what I loved about this discussion is that how many times have we read these and just read that they were just versus the scripture that Moroni quoted, blah, blah, blah. But for me, it became powerful when I realized it's an equation, sealing + gathering + not caught off + dreams = the blessing of all mankind. And having us all returned to live with our Heavenly Father again. That's what it's all about, to become and to be sealed to Jesus Christ, the family of Christ. Ah, so powerful. Or anything else you thought. I'd love to know what some of you, as you were listening, what your equals is because I think the equal sign it can be open to a lot of interpretations. So I'm going to ask that on social media this week. How did you interpret these four dreams in this order? And why did Moroni say them? So that was such a great discussion. Thank you. Okay, so then after the visions, and after he has these experiences, Moroni is basically saying go to a hill. And so Joseph Smith does and he opens this box, he sees what's inside, but in the next segment, we're going to learn what Moroni told Joseph to do now that that box is open.
Segment 5 50:03
Jenny Reeder 50:03
Dundundundundundun. [Jenny imitating intro music]
Dundun, I know.
All right, okay, now we have come to my most exciting part because I feel like I've just gone through four segments waiting for segment five. And I'm just gonna turn it over. You ready? Jenny and Chere, teach us about Emma and her role. And Joseph and blah. My gosh, I'm so excited. Just go. I just want to sit and absorb everything you have to say. Something cool about this is in a couple of months, Jenny, you have a book coming out about Emma.
Jenny Reeder 50:45
A full, Emma Smith book. But I want you to tell us the role that Emma played in Joseph getting the plates and how that all worked out and tell us about their relationship.
Jenny Reeder 50:55
So we don't have, I don't think it's recorded in Joseph Smith—History. But there's another source that says that Moroni told Joseph to return to the hill but he needed to bring the right person.
And that first year, in 1823, he thought that the right person was his sweet, older brother, Alvin. Alvin was so good to him and believed everything that Joseph had experienced. However, in November of that year, Alvin passed away. He got horribly sick and died.
And Joseph kept his promise to Moroni, he returned to every year. And every year, Moroni repeated the same information. And he told Joseph he needed to bring the right person. And finally in 1826, Moroni said, you have one more chance. And Joseph was at a loss. He didn't know what to do. And before that third visit, he had been going to Pennsylvania to do some work for Josiah Stoal.
Josiah was really interested in rumors that there was a silver mine, left by Spaniards, early Spaniards, in remote area of Pennsylvania. And so he hired Joseph. He heard that Joseph had special skills or gifts to see things and to find things, like the gold plates. And so he took Joseph to Pennsylvania, just along the Susquehanna River, and hired him and some other people to look for the silver mine.
Now, this was a thing that we know happened quite often. In this time period, people would look for precious metals and gold and silver and other things. So this wasn't a weird thing necessarily. It's weird to us, but this was an early American practice.
Chere Clarke 52:47
They believed in superstitious kind of things and the magical world a lot more than we do now. I mean, that was pretty common.
Jenny Reeder 52:58
And it's kind of hard for us to understand that just because we think everything's been found or it, we're so far separated from it, that it's hard for us to understand that.
I'm so thankful you brought that up because, at the end of verse 56, he says, "Hence arose every prevalent story of me having been a money-digger." And often that is said of him, and I love that you're like, yeah, it was normal back then. And it wasn't weird, like it is today. And I like that Chere because today when we hear that people are into magic and mysticism and stuff, it has sort of a weird vibe to it. But back then, yeah, sure, all right. So he has a seer stone, it was not a big deal.
Chere Clarke 53:33
Well and the thing I loved about it, too, is that he goes there and works. And then he realizes this is a waste of time. But just because he did that, that's how come he got that reputation of being money digger and a treasure hunter.
Interesting. Thank you for bringing that up. Okay, carry on, let's go on with the story then.
Jenny Reeder 53:54
So he met Emma Smith, he was boarding on the farm of Isaac Hale. And he was very interested in intrigued with her. And I think this is really interesting. They developed a sweet relationship. And she believed his story of going into the woods to pray, and having a great vision. And I think part of the reason that she believed that was because when she was young, she was a Methodist. And they taught the children to go into the woods and pray. And at this particular time, she was praying for her father who did not believe in the Church. And he had he went out hunting and he happened to hear her praying for him. And that totally changed his heart and he immediately became a believer because of the prayer of his daughter.
So I love that both Joseph and Emma and even Lucy, Joseph's mother, were huge believers in going into the woods to pray.
So there was something about Emma that Joseph was really interested in and intrigued in. Not only was she tall and beautiful and smart. But she also had a very tender spiritual side to her as well.
Chere Clarke 55:05
And don't you love to that Emma was also intrigued by him and believed what he had to, you know, say about all this religious stuff because she was very tender when it came to religion. She's very open to religion and, and those kind of things. So I thought that it was equal, that they both, even though her, you know, her father family thought it was a little weird.
And I love that when Joseph was praying to figure out who the right person was, he should bring to retrieve the golden plates that he saw in a seer stone, Emma.
Jenny Reeder 55:42
And he sat down with his parents. This is before they were married, he had just gone back for his annual appointment to visit with Moroni. He sat down with his parents, and he said, "I'm so lonely. And I really think that it's time that I get married. And I would really like to marry Emma Hale."
He goes back to Harmony, and he asks her father, according to the tradition of the time, if he could marry his daughter. And Isaac Hale did not like Joseph. It wasn't just that he was uneducated and poor because his other daughters had married an educated and poor men. But it was this idea that he had had visions. And so Isaac said no. And traditionally, when people got married, they would get married in the bride's parents home.
But Isaac, he didn't give us consent. And they knew that that couldn't happen. So Joseph was back in South Bainbridge, New York. And he invited Emma to come visit him. It was kind of a halfway point between his home and her home. And she went there with no intention of getting married to him. Like, she it wasn't even in her thoughts. And he said, "Let's get married, let's go to the justice of the peace and get married." And she did. So they kind of eloped and they did so without her father's permission, but she and Joseph, we're of legal age to do that.
And so then from there, they go back to his parents farm until his appointment with Moroni. So it's about, let's see, they got married in January to September. And so he takes Emma, they leave at midnight, she's dressed in a riding habit. They borrow carriage, and they go to the appointed place.
And some accounts say that Emma waited in the carriage. Some say that she went with him. But the account that I love says that she got out of the carriage and knelt down on the ground and prayed while Joseph went to meet with Moroni. And she was indeed the right person.
So he just received the plates. And he didn't have a secure lockbox. So he immediately went and found the next closest secure place, which was a hollow log in the woods, and hid them there. And they came back in the morning as the sun was rising, and the Smith family was sitting down to eat breakfast. And all he said to his mother was it has been done.
So the next day, Joseph went to earn some money to buy a lock to secure the plates because he didn't have a lock and he went to a town about an hour away called Macedon. Meanwhile, his father, Joseph Smith, Sr. heard word that people were coming had heard about this gold, and that they were coming and they were looking for the gold. And he told Emma and Emma was so concerned about this, and that she wanted to go warn Joseph.
So she just climbed on the back of a horse, with no saddle or anything, and rode to Macedon, an hour away, to warn Joseph. And Joseph came back immediately and secured the plates.
One of Emma' roles in helping Joseph was to assist in protecting the plates. So not only did she do that when she rode bear back on the horse to warn him, but later when they decided to move back to Pennsylvania, and once they were in Harmony and he had that lock that he had earned the money for, Emma went to her brother-in-law Benjamin Watson, who was a carpenter and he gave them a glass box. Now, this wasn't a box made out of glass, but this was a box that carried glass and protected glass so it was really heavy duty. And so they were able to put the lock on that box and they kept the plates under their bed at night when they weren't using them.
But during the day when they were being used, and Emma provided linen cloth to cover them, and when that she probably made herself and she talks about cleaning, and dusting underneath the plates, she never saw those plates, but when she would lift them up, she could tell how heavy they were and she could feel the pages under the linen cloth, so she was really careful to protect those.
But also Emma was the first scribe when Joseph translated the Book of Mormon. And she had such an intimate relationship with with the Book of Mormon and with her husband's role as prophet.
There were several times later, she also scribed when he was translating the Bible, the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, and he would ask, "Wait a minute, were there walls around Jerusalem?" And because she knew the Bible so well, she could answer those questions.
So she remembered that. And even at the end of her life, a few months before she died, her sons interviewed her about this. And she talks about how she was so amazed, and that the work that her husband Joseph did was a work in a wonder and that she was a willing participant. So even though she never actually saw the plates, I feel like she was a witness to all of that.
Chere Clarke 1:01:00
I also think that she helped with the tutoring of a Joseph in becoming a prophet in a sense because she was educated. She did know those questions when he'd ask about the Bible. And I think she was probably like, amazed, like, you don't know the answer to that? Of course, that is, you know because she knew the Bible well. And so because of that, the two of them were partners together in being tutored in how he was going to be a prophet and how he became a seer and revelator.
Jenny Reeder 1:01:36
I love that part.
Jenny Reeder 1:01:38
Because it shows that we all work together and that we all have different talents and abilities and experiences that when we put it all together, we are making something great.
Oh, Jenny, okay, hold on, I got to write that down. And when we put it all together, we're making something great. Oh, my gosh, I loved that. I totally agree.
This is so cool. I ended never considered just how instrumental the two of them were together in the restoration.
Chere Clarke 1:02:07
Well, and there was a reason why she was the right person to be there to get those plates. There was a purpose in her being part of the restoration. And Joseph could not be the prophet that he was without her.
Jenny Reeder 1:02:21
I think it's also interesting to consider Emma, at the same time we're considering Moroni quoting a scripture and malikai and Elijah and the sealing of families. I think it is so significant that Emma is a part of that. Because when he says, "I will reveal the priesthood to you, " the full priesthood includes that family sealing and Emma is such a significant part of that. Not only of that sealing that brings families together, but of bringing about the restoration.
Okay, that is, that has been mind spinning. And the role that women play in the priesthood. Yes. Like he couldn't have done it alone.
Jenny Reeder 1:03:07
Chere Clarke 1:03:08
I think that's really obvious from why she had to be the one that was there from the very beginning.
Wow, that was so fun. I could listen for hours. That was so fun. Thank you, both of you. Section 25 is going to be incredible. I mean—
Jenny Reeder 1:03:24
I can't wait.
that was one segment. Oh, I can't wait for Section 25. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Now, Jenny, I loved at the beginning how you brought up that he wanted to take Alvin to the hill. And Alvin passed away before he had the chance. And there's a really cool quote by Lucy Mack Smith, because you talked about how Alvin was so supportive and loved Joseph and encouraged him. And this was neat. This is what Alvin said right before he passed away. He says to Joseph, quote:
“I want you to be a good boy, and do everything that lies in your power to obtain the Record. Be faithful in receiving instruction, and in keeping every commandment that is given you. Your brother Alvin must leave you; but remember the example which he has set for you; and set the same example for the children that are younger than yourself, and always be kind to father and mother."
That is going to begin this history, this story of the plates and the Doctrine and Covenants and everything. And when we when you said how poor they were. It's interesting because how in the world is Joseph going to follow Alvin's counsel of keeping these commandments and publishing this Book of Mormon when he had so many enemies and so little money? Well, we're gonna find out in the next segment.
Segment 6 1:04:37
So for many of us, 2020, COVID time has been really hard and many of us have fallen on hard times. And it's been difficult for some people to make ends meet. And so when I was thinking about that, I wanted to ask either of you this question: has there been a time where you haven't been able to make ends meet or where you've been worried about that?
Jenny Reeder 1:05:06
When I was little, my dad was always in and out of work. And I remember, I think like in the first or second grade, we were making—remember in elementary school, and you made those plates for Mother's Day, and you design them? Well, we didn't have whatever it was $1.75 to pay for that. And my elementary school teacher knew that. And she asked me to come in and stay after school and help her grade papers or something, grade assignments, and I thought it was the coolest thing.
And you earn the money to pay for the plate.
Jenny Reeder 1:05:37
That's so sweet.
Jenny Reeder 1:05:38
Well, then I then all of a sudden, I felt so special, because I was helping my teacher.
Okay, that's sweet. I love that story.
Jenny Reeder 1:05:45
But then another time in graduate school, I would get funding for each year, and I was living in Washington, DC, which is an expensive place to live. And I, like the year would go by and then I wouldn't know if I was going to get funding for the next year. And I was scared that I was going to have to, you know, get a job and drop out of school and put off my dissertation. And somehow it always came through.
Good stories, good examples. Anything stand out to you, Chere?
Chere Clarke 1:06:18
I remember, my husband was like, "We can't get married until I make X amount of money." And it was, that's gonna take forever. We're just gonna do it. And it all works out, you know? And it did. It all worked out.
Jenny Reeder 1:06:34
And you lived in that basement apartment where you open that door to the dirt foundation, that was where they were living.
Chere Clarke 1:06:45
But it was, I didn't feel poor. I was always amazed that, you know, everything worked out. So yeah, I think we all have those a little bit.
I think you're right. And I want everyone to think about that, like a time when they were just struggling. What if during that plight, you also had to deal with people who really hated you and were openly persecuting you? How would that change your situation?
Chere Clarke 1:07:11
Well, you feel depressed definitely, right?
Jenny Reeder 1:07:14
Absolutely. It would be so hard. It would be like pushing the burden down and down and down.
Chere Clarke 1:07:21
Well, in Joseph Smith—History one, verse 61, we have to go read this because it gives us insight into Joseph and Emma at this time. So Joseph Smith history 1:61.
I like how he just adds this in. And we've we've read this in a past episode, but it's worth reading again. And so verse 61. Jenny, will you read that for us?
Jenny Reeder 1:07:44
These are long versus, you know?
Jenny Reeder 1:07:48
The excitement, however, still continued, and rumor with her thousand tongues was all the time employed in circulating falsehoods about my father’s family, and about myself. If I were to relate a thousandth part of them, it would fill up volumes. The persecution, however, became so intolerable that I was under the necessity of leaving Manchester, and going with my wife to Susquehanna county, in the State of Pennsylvania. While preparing to start—being very poor, and the persecution so heavy upon us that there was no probability that we would ever be otherwise—in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability.
Thank you, and just for Joseph to describe how persecuted and then he inserts, "being very poor," like, man, times are tough. This is a hard time for us. And then comes in this man by the name of Martin Harris. So we have to take the opportunity to talk about him.
And I love a talk by Elder Oaks. He actually speaks about Martin Harris in a general conference address, and I'm using some of the things that Elder Oaks said about him. But I do love that he said he deserves better than to be remembered as the man that pestered the prophet and lost 116 pages. And I agree.
So here's a couple of things about Martin Harris that we need to know in these verses right here, 62 through 65. You can read about Martin Harris's experience taking the characters to Professor Anton, but we have to know some information about him because the verse 61 that we just read says that he was a farmer of respectability, and he really was. So let's start out with this quote by Elder Oaks. It's from a 1999 conference talk. And Chere, will you read this quote for us?
Chere Clarke 1:09:39
“One of Martin Harris’s greatest contributions to the Church, for which he should be honored for all time, was his financing the publication of the Book of Mormon. In August 1829 he mortgaged his home and farm to Egbert B. Grandin to secure payment on the printer’s contract. Seven months later, the 5,000 copies of the first printing of the Book of Mormon were completed. Later, when the mortgage note fell due, the home and a portion of the farm were sold for $3,000.”
And he starts out by giving $50, which at the time is the, I looked it up, allegedly, the equivalent is about $1,500. And he just kept financing Joseph Smith's needs. And he was a good man to do that. So you can imagine Martin Harris's wife whose name is Lucy was pretty upset. She's like, "Listen, what's going on? Why are you giving this money to this guy? I don't know him. I'm not sure what's happening." And we'll talk more about Lucy and the 116 pages in the next two episodes. But what we want to do right now is we just want to focus on some of the high points of Martin's life. And I asked Jenny and Chere to help me just kind of focus on. These are some of the things that Elder Oaks said that he wants us to know about Martin Harris.
Jenny Reeder 1:10:53
I think, first of all, the fact that he stepped in, and he did this a couple of times, right? When Joseph was in desperation, in need for money and assistance, then he stepped in. Whether that was to move or to pay for the publication of the Book of Mormon, he was right there and willing to help at the very last minute.
And he was much older than Joseph Smith. He was 22 years older. This older gentleman who just happened to meet Joseph, who believed everything Joseph said and said, "Yeah, I want to help. What can I do?"
Chere Clarke 1:11:29
Well, and isn't that interesting to think about their relationship? You know, how did how did Joseph, think about Martin? Because he was older, you know, was he kind of a father figure? I don't know. Because think about when you're young, and you have somebody that you look up to that's older. You know, usually you have great respect, and want to please him and want to make them proud of you or whatever, especially if he's helping them so much.
Yeah, for sure.
Jenny Reeder 1:12:00
So he was also one of the three witnesses. And I think that's significant. And it took a lot of work for him to become one of the three witnesses.
Jenny Reeder 1:12:09
He is also the first man called by the Lord to name to consecrate his property to Zion.
That was, that was pretty interesting. I love reading that as well. And then he went on a mission to Ohio and baptized 100 people, that's a lot of people.
And here's an interesting fact about that mission. He was actually put into jail. He served some time while on that mission. And I like this, his companion was his brother Emer Now, hold on, you're gonna love this. How cool is it that Emer is the great, great-grandfather of Dallin H. Oaks? And what was cool is on that mission Emer baptized a family by the name of Oaks, which is Elder Oaks's, his other great, great-grandfather.
Jenny Reeder 1:12:51
Oh, my gosh.
Is that crazy?
Chere Clarke 1:12:53
His maternal and paternal families connected right here by getting baptized into the Church. So it's such a great story to think that Elder Oaks is related to Mr. Harris. And then his family, Oaks family, was baptized by Mr. Harris. So I thought that was a cool part of the talk.
Jenny Reeder 1:13:10
Chere Clarke 1:13:12
Well, and then he went to Zion's camp. And we all know Zion's camp was, that it was hard too. So it's not like he didn't, he constantly had hard things in his life. And then he was a scribe for Joseph several times. I mean, he showed up just in time to scribe when Emma was pregnant and sick and she could no longer scribe anymore. So he kind of helped move that along.
Jenny Reeder 1:13:37
Plus, he had some pretty high leadership positions.
Quorum of the Twelve, first, yeah, first group of men because he was part of that, that was so cool.
You know, his wife Lucy died, and he married a woman named Caroline Young, who was the niece of Brigham Young. She and their four children, when they all left to come back to Utah, she came to Utah, but he stayed in Kirtland. And I thought this was an interesting part of his story.
So he stays. But in 1870, he desires to be reunited with the saints. And so Brigham Young sends a warm invitation along with a ticket for Martin's passage and an official escort from one of the presidents of the 70s to come back to Utah. And so Martin begins that journey. He's like, "I want to rejoin with the saints and see my family." He got rebaptised in the Tabernacle at the Salt Lake Tabernacle. And this was kind of cool out of his history. It said while he was gazing on the Salt Lake Temple and the Tabernacle and the Salt Lake Valley, he said this, quote, "Who would have thought that the Book of Mormon would have done all this?" You know, I love that him thinking like, "Wow, my, that $50 clear back then. And look what's happened?" As he standing and gazing on the Valley of Salt Lake.
Chere Clarke 1:14:44
Well, imagine what he's thinking now. You know, if he could see what I did now, so I love that thought.
Powerful. He died in Clarkston, Utah, that is in up in northern Utah like Cache County. And I just thought this was so beautiful. He was buried with the Book of Mormon in his right hand and the Doctrine and Covenants in his left.
Jenny Reeder 1:15:04
I love that.
Chere Clarke 1:15:06
Well, and I love that he was rebaptised. And five years later, he died. And so to me, it just shows that it's never too late to come back and get yourself in the right place, the Lord gives you so many chances. And he was able to do that.
Jenny Reeder 1:15:28
To be recovered.
He was recovered, he hadn't been cut off. Oh, it's just so important for us to know these stories about some of these people in Church history. Knowing this changes the way you view some of these revelations given to them.
And we had to know this about Martin before we can even study the 116 pages because he was such a good man. And so I just want to know from both of you, like, I kind of just said it already. I'm sorry, I should have already asked you the question. Let me ask you this question because my question is, what can be gained? So what can we gain by knowing Martin's story? What's the benefit of knowing all this?
Jenny Reeder 1:16:02
Part of it, I think, is the same thing that we learned from the Joseph Smith—History that we read that when he was young, he wasn't perfect. And I think we see the same thing with Martin Harris, that he wasn't perfect. And yet he could still repent and return and believe and contribute, even as an imperfect man with a tough life.
Chere Clarke 1:16:27
You know, I think it goes with how we've been taught that we can see an angel and everything, but it doesn't keep us in the Church, or with our faith and our testimony, this the Spirit, the Holy Ghost that testifies to us. So Martin Harris, even though he saw an angel, and he was one of the witnesses, he's still struggled with his testimony because he maybe stopped doing the simple things that you have to do to keep that testimony strong, even though he had these great manifestations. So to me, it just is a reminder that the Holy Ghost, you have to keep the Holy Ghost and the Spirit in your life to stay strong.
And going off what you said, Chere, I'm so glad you said that, because to me, that makes him a powerful witness. That his human foibles and what he was still able to accomplish and do that makes him a powerful witness.
Chere Clarke 1:17:28
That's what God works with, is human people. We all were, nobody's perfect. So never give up on yourself, right?
Or anyone you know, or anything. Yes.
So here's my question for two of you, then because you have spent the last seven years studying Emma and Joseph and Church history, writing this incredible book. And I want to know, from this experience, from studying their lives, what is your witness of all of this of this work?
Chere Clarke 1:17:57
I would say that, to me, Joseph Smith and Emma, their partnership started this restoration. And they were human, they had the things that are hard that all of us deal with. I mean, I could really relate. And even though they had their hard things, and didn't always work out perfectly, the Church moved along. It became what it is, what we see now if we gaze from, you know, Ensign Peak, and we can see and go on and on and on and see where it is throughout all corners of the world. So to me, it's that the Lord works with us, no matter what our foibles are, or our levity, or whatever. And he can do great things with with us. And so I love the two of them and absolutely believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. There's no doubt in my mind over that. And I relate to him even more so from doing all this research and the book that we did.
Wow, thanks, Chere. That's a great witness. Thank you.
Jenny Reeder 1:19:08
I think that Joseph and Emma are so similar to other power couples: to Adam and Eve, and to Abraham and Sarah, and to Mary and Joseph. And it shows me that this capital P priesthood that Malachai is teaching us and Moroni is tutoring Joseph is for men and women, covenanted men and women working together and sharing what they can, doing the best with the resources that they have, to bring forth this marvelous work and wonder, which is what Emma called it, a marvelous work and wonder.
Oh, Jenny, thank you for your witness. It was perfect. Wow.
Thank you. Thank you, both of you what you said, this was such a great discussion. So many times I just felt so peaceful and so happy, which is having me feel the Spirit. And I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
So that's the end, we're done. I can't believe it.
Chere Clarke 1:20:15
That went by fast.
Oh, it did. It was so good.
So take a little minute and think about what was your takeaway from today, something that stood out to you or you learned or you want to share.
Jenny Reeder 1:20:25
You know, it's interesting, I love that we talked about both Emma and Martin Harris. And we know that Emma stayed in Nauvoo, she didn't come with the body of the Church and Brigham Young to Utah. And I think she did that for a couple of different reasons that we can talk about later. But I believe that when she died, Joseph came for her. And she knew that she would be able to raise the children that she had lost and the hearts of her heart, her mother heart, turned to her children and her children turned to her. And I love that it wasn't too late for her, that her covenant was still in place, and that she too was recovered and gathered. And I love that this is all teaching me about the Atonement of Jesus Christ, in gathering us in and bringing us back together.
Chere Clarke 1:21:22
If there was no eternal family. If I was not linked to my family, and have those kind of family relationships, and not just my immediate family here, but my great-grandmother and, and all those ancestors that went before me, and whose legacy that I enjoy and actually have been benefited by, it would be awful not to have had that kind of ordinance and covenants that tie us to the Savior. And tie us to our family members, so that we aren't just out there without any ties to the Savior and any of our covenant relationships. So what Elijah brought with that, revealing that sealing power, and really helping Joseph Smith understand, it had to have really stayed with them, to have it been repeated three different times to him, four actually, four different times. That he had to be thinking about that over his years as a prophet trying to figure out exactly what he had to do that was so important to make sure that the earth wasn't utterly wasted, you know, and that it could we could all fulfill our potential.
Amen. I will amen both of your takeaways. That was powerful. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
My takeaway was, when you said when we put it all together, we're all going to make something great. And that was really good for me because that's what this is about. When we, when we put everything together, we're going to make something great. And that's what we're being asked to do right now by our Prophet, the gathering. We're going to put it all together and we are going to make something great, which is Zion, the Second Coming, getting ready for that. So that's kind of what stood out to me.
So thank you, ladies. Gosh, I love you both. We're going to have so much fun in a couple more weeks—section 25. Get ready.
Jenny Reeder 1:23:26
Oh yeah! I'm so excited. I might not be able to sleep.
Well, it was a blast. So, I can't wait to do this together again.
Thank you, ladies, thanks for being here.
So for those of you who are listening, I would love to know what your big takeaway was for this episode. Plus, we're gonna do a lot of social media posts throughout the week because there's still so much more to talk about. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group, and if you're not following us on Facebook or Instagram, go there, sign up, get an account, it's totally worth it. And it's just fun throughout the week to read what people are saying and what they're sharing. And then every week at the end on Sundays, we do a post calling for what your big takeaway was. So comment on the post that relates to this specific lesson and let us know what you learned. And I do read every single one of them. And I get to make a fun video that comes out Monday morning and I share a takeaway that stands out to me that you have shared so go on and share those.
You can find access to our Facebook and Instagram page by going to our show notes for this episode at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we have the link to all the references that we shared in this talk as well as a complete transcript of this whole discussion. So go check that out.
"Sunday on Monday" study group is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original and it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by, me Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Chere Clarke and Jenny Reeder. And you can find more information about these ladies at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
This podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. It's recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 Studios and our executive producer is Erin hallstrom.
Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week, and please remember that he is going to recover you because you're his favorite.
Okay, that was such a fun episode. It's just the first one that was—I love that you brought up the levity thing. I seriously was I'm like, I don't want to cover that because that's totally me.
Chere Clarke 1:25:19
Okay, but I want to say it's jovial, not jo-vile or jo-vil or whatever you said.
Chere Clarke 1:25:28
Jenny Reeder 1:25:28
What did I say?
Chere Clarke 1:25:31
Jo-vile or something. It was just so funny.
Jenny Reeder 1:25:34
Weird. I don't. Jo-vi-al.
Chere Clarke 1:25:37
That's perfect. I loved it.
Chere Clarke 1:25:39
It was awesome.