30: “The Word of God Grew and Multiplied” (Acts 10–15)

Tammy 0:01

Okay, raise your hand if you have ever thought or silently prayed, 'Heavenly father, help me to see this person the way You do.' Because you know what? People sure are tricky. And managing relationships can almost seem like a full-time job, which none of us are really qualified for, which is why we need to pray for help. And has that prayer ever worked if you did pray for that? What changes did you notice in the way you thought about or interacted with that person? Or did you see any changes? Or in my case, maybe I prayed that for multiple people. And I'm also wondering, did it require a change of heart? This week's study of Acts 10-15 teaches us much about the principle that we are all God's children. And how's this examining the way we treat others and the role that revelation can play in helping our hearts to change?

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Desert Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really Dig Into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend, Kate Stoker. Hi, Kate. I met Kate at Beaumont Bakery in Salt Lake and she was adorable and I loved her curly hair and it was so awesome to meet you. Okay, now here is my favorite thing about this podcast, is each week we're joined by two of my friends so it's always a little bit different. And today we have Caleb Farley and Kerry Muhlestein. Hi, you two.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:28

Hi.

Caleb 1:29

Hello.

Tammy 1:31

All right. Kerry's an old hat, he's done this several times. We love it when Kerry's on the podcast, he is so insightful. And Caleb's a new guest. Now Caleb's mom and dad have been on the podcast, Becky and Doug Farley. Hey. And I want to know, though, how do you two know each other? Because this is kind of a cool story.

Caleb 1:47

Yeah, for sure. So Kerry was my professor when I went to do the BYU Jerusalem study abroad. So he took me all over Egypt and Israel and Jordan and just like, opened a whole new world of Scripture to me and inspired me in so many ways. And, and I was not expecting that. Like, I showed up in Jerusalem and then he was there. And I was like, Oh, you're cool. I like what you think about the scriptures.

Kerry Muhlestein 2:18

Oh, and now I owe you money. That's good. We had a good time together, a really good time. And then I'm, we've had hallway conversations since then in the Joseph Smith building and all sorts of stuff.

Tammy 2:28

Well, as we were getting ready before we started recording, one of the things that stood out to me, it was Caleb. You said you experienced one of the greatest days of your entire life with Kerry Muhlestein on a specific day in Jerusalem. Tell us about that.

Caleb 2:41

It was, so it was Palm Sunday. So we were in Jerusalem during Holy Week so that week before Easter where you commemorate all the different events that happened leading up to Jesus's death and resurrection. And something that we do, that they do on Palm Sunday is people come from all over the world. Like, literally every culture, language, and there's just this mass gathering of 1000s and 1000s of people. And you all go to the Mount of Olives, and you march down the mountain together, waving palm leaves, like celebrating Palm Sunday and commemorating the initiation of Holy Week. So we got to do that together.

Kerry Muhlestein 3:29

Yeah, people praise and they sing and there's dancing and all sorts of stuff and some rituals down towards the end. It's a fantastic feeling of worshiping with the community of Christ, regardless of religious denomination. Just the entire community of Christ praising the Lord together. It's a fantastic experience.

Tammy 3:50

Oh, wow. Okay, I've just added something to my bucket list now. Oh, my gosh.

Kerry Muhlestein 3:54

Yeah, for sure.

Tammy 3:55

Wow, that is, that, I would love that. I've, I have gone to Palm Sundays in other religious faiths here in America, but that would be it. Oh that's so cool.

Caleb 4:05

Yeah, you just go through the gate where Jesus went,

Tammy 4:08

right?

Caleb 4:09

It's kind of cool.

Tammy 4:10

So cool, so cool. Okay, well, if you guys want to know more about my guests, go to our show notes, which are found at LDS living.com/sunday On Monday, and you can read their bios and see some pictures. K, we're going to begin this study. So grab your scriptures, your scripture journals and something to mark your Scriptures with and Let's Dig In to Acts 10-15. Okay, you two. I am going to say a word and I want you to tell me the very first thing that comes to your mind, okay, and there's no wrong answer. So here we go. The word is 'horn'.

Caleb 4:42

Car

Kerry Muhlestein 4:43

Okay. Well, now you're going to know that I am odd so, and I have to say that there was one thing that came to my mind first, but I'll have to tell you the one that came immediately thereafter, it will explain me in a weird way. So the first thing that came to my mind was altar, which is not what most people think, but I'm into four horned alters, which is the kind of alters they had in the Near East, including Israel.

Tammy 5:05

I would have expected that of you.

Kerry Muhlestein 5:07

Yeah. The second is Egypt, because I just got back from Egypt and they're always honking their horns all the time. In fact, our driver told us that the engine is the second most important thing in the car. The brakes are the third; the most important thing is a horn.

Tammy 5:21

Well, I like both of you were on the same wavelength with a car and the horn. Very good. The reason why I wanted us to think about the word horn is, turn to Act 10:1. We're going to mark a name, we're going to talk about someone specific and his connection to a horn. I thought this was pretty neat. Acts 10:1. It starts by saying there was a certain man of Caesarea called Cornelius." Now put a square around this person's name, Cornelius. And here's what you want to know: His name is derived from a Latin word CORNU, which means 'horn'. I want to go back to your connection to Egypt ,Kerry, because Cornelius is a very important part of today's story, and he's important to the Lord. So that was really cool, like, important part of the car and important part to our story. But I asked you two, as you were reading the story, to underline some things that teach us about Cornelius. And tell me, what did we learn about him from verses 1-8?

Caleb 6:17

Well, so first of all, I couldn't help but notice that he comes from the band called The Italian band. And I can't help but think that there's something super, like culturally important there, but like, it's trying to be expressed. I don't know what it is. I was like expecting you Hebrew scholars to know that.

Tammy 6:40

I'd love to know, because I, you know what? I'm not gonna lie. When I saw that, he's from a band called The Italian band, I'm like, Oh, he's in the mafia. Okay, I'm gonna love this story. Kerry, tell us about that.

Kerry Muhlestein 6:51

Well, the thing you have to remember is that Rome was based in Italy, right. But they have these contingents from all over their huge, far flung empire. So you've got different bands and, and cohorts, and so on that are from all over the place. So if you're in Italian band, you're from the homeland, right. This is the group that Romans, like real Romans, so you've got Roman citizens, but people from Rome and from the surrounding area, they're going to think of this as these are the real deal, right, the people from that area, so. It is kind of an elite thing. And it's also probably something that they weren't very excited to be stationed in Judea. But they, it was seen as kind of the backwater of the Empire by many. But in any case, he's in a, at least has to be somewhat elite in the military.

Tammy 7:46

Oh, for sure. And the fact that he's called a Centurion. I mean, we know he's a Roman commander at least in the Roman army. So, awesome. Keep going you two. What else did you learn?

Caleb 7:55

Well, I had just another question about that. Does that say anything about the types of like, religious context that he would be coming from? Like, what were they worshipping? What were they doing?

Kerry Muhlestein 8:08

He certainly would have come from a typical Roman religious background, so worshipping you know, Jupiter and so on, which we would typically think of as Zeus, right. But Jupiter's the Latin version of this, but that Greek/Roman pantheon of gods, and so on, is what he would be coming from. But he's clearly gone somewhere else at this point, so.

Tammy 8:31

Good question, Caleb. I'm so glad you asked that. Okay, keep going, what else did we learn?

Kerry Muhlestein 8:37

I love what we learn in verse 2: He's "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house." So that means he is someone - and we get a few of these that are described in different places in the New Testament - this is someone who, though he came from this, what they would call a pagan background, has become converted to God. Now, there's always a question, does that mean they gave up all of their religious beliefs? Because if you're a polytheist it's pretty easy to start to believe in a different god and devote your attention to them but still believe in other gods. So I don't know what the case is with him. But typically, when they say devout and believed in or feared God, this means this is someone who's come to worship Jehovah, and is almost a kind of a convert to Judaism.

Now, that's a complicated issue to think through - what does it mean to be a convert to Judaism? and how do they even accept converts? But it's clear they keep them as a distinct category. He's not a Jew, but he believes in Jehovah, right? And that's where this seems to be, he's a devout believer. And he doesn't just believe, he really practices it. Because the next line is, "which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God always." So he, he is taking care, he has/is wealthier than the people around him and he's taking care of them, giving them whatever they need to help the poor, and he's very prayerful. He's praying all the time. So I think it's a great description of the perfect Gentile convert waiting to be converted, right? The perfect Gentile waiting to be the perfect Gentile convert, we could say,

Tammy 10:20

Yes, absolutely. Kerry, when you were talking about that, how he just believed, he was devout to Jehovah, he feared God, what stood out to me was verse 4. So he has a vision and an angel of God appears to him. And verse 4 tells us that "when he looked on him, he was afraid and said, What is it Lord?" Like the way he was able to recognize who it was that was coming, and for him to go, Okay, what is it Lord, and that he never doubted, or he's so confident that he's having this vision. And then he says, I love how the angel says to him "Thy prayers and thine arms are come up for a memorial before God." And so just right there goes back to support what you said, Kerry. He really does fear God, knows who he believes in, and was able - it's almost like a Samuel moment - here I am God, you know, send me. I just love how he's like, What is it, Lord? I know You and You're talking to me. Well, based on some of the things we've just been discussing, I wanted to know, what do these verses teach us about how Heavenly Father might feel about Cornelius?

Caleb 11:22

So you posed that question before and do you know what it reminded me of was in Alma chapter 29. There's, Alma is talking about kind of like his reflections on doing missionary work. And in verse 8 it says, "For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations of their own nation and tongue to teach his word, yea in wisdom all that he seeth fit that they should have." So I just thought that like, Cornelius wasn't born into the Jewish covenant, he was somewhere else, probably raised in like, you know, the classic Roman Pantheon. And God knew him and was continually giving him what he needed in the moment. You know, I can't help but think that he became a leader through this like, Pantheon, completely different from what we're maybe used to in like the Jewish covenant, and then like, a follower of Christ. But yet he was so good. And then it became time to join the covenant. And so God knew him and gave him what he needed at the exact time that he needed it.

Tammy 12:35

Oh, great connection, Caleb, I like that.

Kerry Muhlestein 12:39

And I love that it says "your prayers and your arms have come up before God." Now we've already noted that we knew he was doing that. But I'm sure there were other people as well who were believers. We know there were other believers who weren't Jews who were praying and had alms coming up. Cornelius is going to have this experience because he's in a certain position, and he's in a certain geographic location that makes him this the perfect candidate for this incredibly important event. But I think that it can give us comfort because I, to me it says, 'Whoever, wherever you are, and you may think God doesn't notice you. But if you're praying and doing good stuff, God has noticed.' They've come up before him. And you know, less than 1% will have an experience like this. But 100% of those who are praying in their alms, they're doing arms, God has noticed, and I think we can learn that from this. I think it's just a fantastic little insight to be gained.

Tammy 13:36

Wow

Caleb 13:37

Totally

Tammy 13:37

Absolutely. Thank you, both of you for that insight. It's fun to talk about Cornelius, because a lot of times he gets passed over. And he's so important to the overall narrative and story that we're going to be studying today. And just being different than what you imagined and yet God sees him. So thank you to both of you. So in this revelation, the angel said, basically, 'Cornelius, I want you to send some men and go find Peter.' That's his assignmen. and so he does that. And while the men are traveling to find the apostle Peter, the Lord is teaching Peter about something else that's very connected to Cornelius. And we'll talk about that in the next segment.

Segment 2 14:11

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Tammy 14:27

Now, this is so fun, because I saw Caleb a couple of weeks ago after I asked him to be on the podcast, and I was shocked by this, because you said to me, "This is my favorite story. I love this story so much." Acts chapter 10 you said is one of your favorite chapters. Why do you love this story so much, Caleb?

Caleb 14:44

So there is this quote from CS Lewis, and it says, "God is the great iconoclast." And so when I heard that quote, I was like, what is an iconoclast? So I looked up the dictionary, and it said, "An iconoclast is someone or something that completely changes and alters your perspective of who he is, what the world is." So it completely shifts the way that you actually think about the world.

Tammy 15:19

Right.

Caleb 15:19

So God is the great, iconoclast, God is the great symbol of changing your perspective. And I love this story because up until this point, the apostles were all Jewish. It was, they followed Christ but they were Jewish. And what they believed was that only Jews can follow Christ. And that was just the way that they saw the world. But you know, Jesus comes and He's an iconoclast, He's shifting the way we see everything. And so what we thought was right is no longer right. And now it's something newer and something broader. And, you know, we see this all over scripture that, you know, God tells Nephi to kill somebody, even though that's against the law. He tells Peter to eat stuff that Peter shouldn't eat. And so it's not about the law, it's not about following the rules. It's about following the rule-giver. It's about following Christ and just doing whatever He says, regardless of if it makes sense to you, because He's the great iconoclast. He's going to change the way you view the world and bring you to real truth. .

Tammy 16:38

Wow. Hold on, I'm writing so many things down. I like how you said, "It's not about following the rules, it's about following the rule-giver." That was profound, Caleb, no wonder you're getting a PhD in psychology. That is so cool. And you will, you told us a little bit about how Peter was told to eat something he wasn't used to eating. So let's go to that story. Bracket off verses 9-16, and to the outside write "Peters vision." Because while Cornelius is having his experience, his vision and is told, Send some of your men to go find Peter at the house of Simon a tanner, Peters' having a vision. And I really like how it's descriptive about this vision for Peter. So verse 9 says on the morrow they went on their journey, but then Peter went up on the house top to pray.

And verse 10, "....he became very hungry." Boy, I love that so much. It says so hungry, and he "would have eaten: but while they were made ready, he fell into a trance." I mean, who hasn't been hungry, right? I just think God is so smart that He just seizes this opportunity and moment to teach Peter something when he's so hungry. Because I have been so hungry, I would eat anything. My mom used to always joke that she would feed us some of the worst foods on Fast Sunday because she knew that we would eat them or at least try them. Any parent ever tried that?

Kerry Muhlestein 17:56

I should have, that's brilliant.

Tammy 17:58

Yeah, you can try a new menu or a new recipe on Fast Sunday. So he's super hungry. And he sees this vision. Now this vision is a little bit crazy, because you're like, wait, what? There's, the heaven opens, there's four corners, there's a sheath. There's all these weird things creeping upon the earth, and Peter's supposed to eat them. I don't understand what this is about. So, I asked Kerry. Kerry, will you explain this vision to us? How do we best understand this, and what is the Lord trying to teach him?

Kerry Muhlestein 18:24

Yeah, and I think, let's just start out by saying, in my mind, this kind of carefully orchestrated series of events between Cornelius, his servants, and Peter. And the timing of it and everything is one of the most important events in the history of the church. I mean, obviously, Christ - His death and resurrection - is the most important. But this is incredibly important because of what it's teaching us. So Peter, as Caleb said, he's a good observant Jew, he doesn't hang out with Gentiles. He has never, he's telling us, he has never ever in his life eaten non-kosher food. And he has this vision where he sees this sheet coming down. Many have supposed that this might have been a prayer shawl, and that the four corners are the earth's corners, with the tassels tied up. We can't know that but that would certainly add to the symbolism of this, that you've got this prayer shawl, or sheet, or whatever it is, but it's full of unholy or unclean animals. It's got clean animals as well, but unclean animals, animals that they're not allowed to eat under the Law of Moses. And Peter is told to eat them and when he protesters, says, 'I never eat this.' I love this line, it's in verse 15.

So we're in Acts 10:15 "And the voice spake unto him again the second time". What, so this the second time he's been told this, he's told three times but, "What God hath cleansed that call not thou common." Right. So common or mundane, or profane is another word for that. Profane as opposed to holy or clean. And this is so clear that God has opened up things that typically the Jews have not thought were opened up. He's cleansed them, He's made them ready to be part of His fold. And that just sets the scene. Peter's confused by this, he's trying to figure out what does this mean? I don't eat ham, I don't eat lobster. What does this mean, when you get the kind of third part of this whole story, which is the visitors arriving. And it's the two happening in conjunction with each other that makes it so that Peter can finally figure out what God is trying to tell him.

Wow, excellent job, Kerry. That is exactly what we needed to hear about that. I want to go back to your statement, though, when you said it's one of the single-most important revelations or visions in our religious experience. Why do you say that?

I'd say that because without this, Christianity doesn't spread. It remains a Jewish religion. But that's not what it was supposed to be. And so really, this entire reading is about the story of Christianity going to all the world. So Christ has said as He's ascending and He has his followers together, as he's ascending after the resurrection, he says, Take the Gospel to all the ends of the earth. But I'm guessing that they understood that to mean to go to everywhere in the world and preach to the Jews,

Tammy 21:27

Right.

Kerry Muhlestein 21:28

Because they're the covenant people, and they don't interact with other people. And salvation is of the Jews, right, and that kind of a thing. So this is where it takes, it takes the leader, it takes Peter. And he's going to take some flack for this, but it takes Peter having this experience to know that the gospel can go to all the world. And then the rest of the reading for this, this is the first chapter of the reading for this week. But the rest of the reading for this week is the story of how the gospel first gets really preached to the Gentiles.

And the problem they have in the church, which as Caleb mentioned, is Jews, the problem they have, and adjusting to that. And it ends up being really an incredibly crucial story for the church as well. But just there is no spread of Christianity. There is no gathering of the house of Israel, which has been spread throughout Christianity, or throughout the Gentiles, I should say. And they've lost their consciousness that they are Israel and are just think of themselves as Gentiles. None of that happens if we don't have this vision and this series of events that makes it so that then, for example, Paul, and Barnabas will feel comfortable preaching to the Gentiles when they express interest and so on. That only happens because of this vision.

Tammy 22:49

Absolutely. And the way I'm understanding it is what I have read is that those people who joined Christianity up to this point have gone first, by way of Judaism. They join along with the Jewish faith and practices and laws. And then they come circling around into Christianity. And right here Cornelius didn't do that. He did not first become, he didn't go from being a Gentile to a Jew to a Christian. He's just gonna go straight from Gentile to Christian. And that is going to blow Peters mind, because that's not how it's done, or has been done up to this point. Cornelius will be the first person to kind of break that tradition.

And so yeah, it's going to change the way, like you said, the way we gather and it's just not who you've expected that's going to be allowed. And that's kind of the message that Peter's getting here is all these unclean things. And so he's a little bit unsure. In verse 17, circle the word 'doubted'. We're going to come back to that later. And again in verse 20, because now Peter and Cornelius's men meet up, and Cornelius's men say, Hey, we were set by Cornelius. And in verse 22 they rehearse what kind of good man he is, how he fears God, and that Peter needs to go back and see Cornelius. And so as they have this conversation and interaction, they do meet up with Cornelius. And then verses 30-33 Cornelius tells his story to Peter, about the vision that he received, and why it is that he sent his men to find Peter. And then we get this beautiful line in verse 34. Caleb will you read verse 34.

Caleb 24:17

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

Tammy 24:26

Oh my gosh, why do we love that verse?

Caleb 24:29

I don't know. It completely goes against such a classic human tendency, which is that we have our tribes, you know, like, this is my group of people and we're right. We know what's what, and anyone who doesn't think this is wrong and is bad and we shouldn't affiliate with them. And we just see through our history of humankind that we do that all the time. We're always breaking off into groups. We're always gossiping about the other group, we think we know. But God is no respecter of persons. God transcends all groups. He wants every single person in His family. He doesn't just want the ones that know, He wants everybody and He wants to include everyone.

Tammy 25:18

Like, there are so many different groups here and he's like, He's no respecter of persons. What exactly does that mean? Like, how would you explain that to someone who's young - no respecter of persons.

Caleb 25:29

Probably just like He loves everybody. He doesn't respect one person over another person. He respects all people.

Tammy 25:38

Yep, you're exactly right. What about you, Kerry, thoughts on that verse?

Kerry Muhlestein 25:41

Yeah, I think, again, it's profound. And it goes back to a little bit of what you were talking about, that Cornelius coming into Christianity. So I would agree that if someone who's a Gentile wants to believe in Jehovah, they can, but they're never really integrated into being Jewish. That's why you have someone described like Cornelius was, or we get other people in the New Testament described that way, that they're a devout believer in God or a fearer of God, but they're not a Jew. So they are not of the covenant people, they can never be in that group. But this bypasses that and says everyone can be of the covenant people. So it's no longer, I would say, for outsiders, Christianity was seen as a sect of Judaism. This is just a particular group. And Jews probably saw themselves as this. Okay, we're Jews and we're the ones who have figured out who the Messiah is. And we hope one day everyone else figures out who the Messiah is. But this flips that, and says, No, we can all be Christians, and you might be a Jewish Christian. And you might have a Syrian Christian, and you know, a Mesopotamian Christian or whatever else.

But we are all Christians first. But it doesn't erase Judaism. What it does is it says that the covenant, so the house of Israel - which is bigger than just Judaism - but the house of Israel is available to everybody. Everyone can becomes it, to be a Christian is to be part of the house of Israel, a part of the covenant. And that's a big thing. That concept is not going to automatically sink in to everyone who has grown up as a Jew, it's going to take some time to adjust to that kind of thinking. And it's going to take time for Gentiles to adjust that kind of thinking. And in the end, sadly, none of them do it perfectly. And this is part of what leads to the apostasy. But that is the concept, that everyone becomes part of the house of Israel, which also means becoming Christian, though my Jewish friends would not agree with that last statement. But, and that's fine. I mean, they're certainly part of the Covenant, but Nephi teaches us that to be fully, fully part of the Covenant, you'll have to accept Christ as the Messiah.

Tammy 27:52

Absolutely. And in fact, the next verse, in verse 35, I really appreciate how Peter defines who God does respect. And it's so beautiful. Go ahead read that for us, Kerry, verse 35.

Kerry Muhlestein 28:05

"But in every nation, he that feareth him" [and him is God there, so] "he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted with him."

Tammy 28:14

There it is. Underline "feareth him and worketh righteousness." Boy, if that doesn't sum up Cornelius, I don't know what does, as we talked about him. And so Peter will speak to the people, he teaches them. You can bracket off verses 33-43. He teaches and testifies of Christ, and then all of the people get baptized. All of Corneliu's family. In verse 48 says, "And he commandeth them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Circle the word'them.' And you can cross reference that with verse 2, verse 24, verse 27, and verse 33, where it talks in wording of them and they and we and all, meaning Cornelius's family and people. And they were baptized. And so right there, Cornelius's story - it breaks the mold. And it allows us as you beautifully taught us Kerry, it allows for everyone to then become covenant people, covenant-keeping sons and daughters of a loving Heavenly Father. And I'm just gonna say, if anybody wants to know more about this, you're gonna want to check out everything Kerry's ever written, because this man has paid the price to know about covenant relationships, and his books beautifully, just beautifully exemplify that.

So thank you for all of your thoughts on that great discussion. Okay, so here's what I want you to do. It might be interesting to kind of try a simple activity for the next few days. I like how the Come, Follow Me lesson challenges us to do this in light of this discussion. And it says,"Whenever you interact with someone, try to think to yourself, This person is a child of God, even though they might break the mold of what I think a child of God should look like. And then as you do this, the Come, Follow Me lesson says to notice what changes you have in the way you think and interact with others. So I'm going to challenge everyone to do that this week, to take the Peter challenge, and maybe look at people differently than you always have before and invite them into your tribe which is the ultimate, the tribe of our Heavenly Father, His covenant people. So I think it'll be a fun little thing to do this week, and you probably already are praying that you'll love somebody the way God does. But let's try it this week. Okay, that was awesome. So Peter's vision

Caleb 30:11

Can I add,

Tammy 30:12

Please, Caleb.

Caleb 30:13

So I had a similar challenge in my grad school program where they challenged is not just to seek someone to try to love them, but seek someone who you wouldn't normally want to try to interact with Like look for somebody who maybe you avoid, or that you're afraid of interacting with, and try to get to know them. Maybe go to something that their, they hold meaningful. And that doesn't mean you need to, like completely agree with them or completely like devote yourself to them, but just like, try to get to know someone you might be inclined to not want to get to know.

Tammy 30:50

Okay, Caleb. You just took the challenge and turned it up. And that is awesome. I like that. So, K, do Caleb's challenge: Find somebody. Yeah, that is so good. Thank you. Oh, good stuff. Okay. So we have this vision. And this vision is only the beginning of Peter's understanding. So we'll talk more about that in the next segment.

Segment 3 31:10

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Tammy 31:28

I asked you two ahead of time to read through Acts 10, 11, and 15, and to notice how Peter's understanding of this vision deepened over time. Tell me what you guys noticed.

Kerry Muhlestein 31:40

I love watching Peter because it helps us remember that everyone - leaders of the church down to, you know, the primary - we all have a process we have to go through as we come to better understand the principles of the gospel, whether you're a convert or you're baptized at eight or whatever else. We all go through this process of understanding the gospel and different principles of the gospel. And you see that with Peter, whereas we said initially, he's like, Yeah, I don't talk to Gentiles. And I don't eat unclean things. And then he understands, Okay, this does mean that the Gentiles can be part of this covenant group. Then as they're baptized and they become part of the community, he then has to go to Jerusalem. And he goes down to Jerusalem and he has to explain this to them. They say, let's look in chapter 11. We get to verse 1: "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision" [So that's the way that Luke uses to say covenant Jews that were of the circumcision,] "contended with him."

So that word contenders, or immediately we, No. This is not like, Oh, hey, that's kind of cool what you did. This is, What in the world were you thinking, Peter?

Tammy 32:56

Yeah,

Kerry Muhlestein 32:57

"Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them" So that's the first part. Like you talked with these guys and you ate with these guys. What are you thinking? But further than that, right? He's baptized them. "But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them." right. And he goes through the whole story, and explains how he has come to understand that they are no longer, and actually I'd like to maybe back up on this for a minute and teach or go through an important principle. It was always part of the Abrahamic covenant that the gospel was to be spread. We get that in Abraham 2, chapter 1 and 2, but especially chapter 2. When the covenant was first establish, it's supposed to go to everyone. I don't know if they had the injunction right then to go and spread to everyone, though I think so. I think Abraham was, but they lose sight of that. And it's a far cry from what you read in Abraham Chapter 2 with you have an obligation to share priesthood ordinances with all the world, to the situation we find Peter in where Hey, you shouldn't have talked with a Gentile. What in the world are you thinking?

And so they're having to get back to a more pure understanding of the Covenant and the obligation of sharing the covenant with everyone. And I think it's important for us to understand that this is a restoration of that. Christ was a restorer in many ways. And He is restoring that element of the covenant that they had lost. And it's up to Peter to help everyone else. So God speaks to Peter, this is classic what we see in the church, right, Peter's the head of the church, He speaks to Peter. And then Peter has to counsel with the other leaders. This is the same thing that we see today, right? So in fact, we could compare this to the 1978 Revelation, where the priesthood and all covenants become universally, available, regardless of race. And President Kimball has been praying and praying and praying for that and before him his predecessors as prophets had been praying for. When it comes to him, he comes to the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 and presents the idea to them. And if you read the accounts of people were there that it sounds like it was a profound experience where God's will is made manifest to all of them in a very powerful way.

That seems to me to be a mirror of what we're reading about here, with the experience of Peter and the other leaders of the church in Jerusalem as they come to understand this is universally available. But there are questions it doesn't immediately answer. Principles, you have to put them into practice in some way. And those practices, you're right, the devil's in the details, it may be literally the devil is in the details, because I think he does try and get in the details of the story and mess people up. And it does cause some contention. And I think there's some people who lose their faith over this issue and so on, because the question is, Okay. So they can all be part of the covenant. Does that mean that they have to become in effect Jewish? Right? Keep the full Law of Moses or not? That's going to be the question that they're going to wrestle with for the next several chapters. I don't think that that had a question that even occurred. I don't know. But I don't think it'll even occur to Peter to begin with. Oh, yeah. Okay, they're part of Judaism. Although the seed for answering the question was in Division. I've made these animals clean. Right.

But I, in fact, you get this little hint in Paul's letter to the Galatians, which I know we cover later, but it comes to play in this story. We don't know for sure when that's written. But most scholars think that this is written in between this council that we're reading about in Chapter 11. It's called the first Jerusalem Council. And chapter 15 it's called the Second Jerusalem council. And these are both councils about, Okay, what's going on with the Gentiles and the Gospel? And most people or most scholars think that Paul's letter to the Galatians is written just before or sometime before the second Council, but after the first council. So they've been taking the gospel to the Gentiles. But he writes, and he talks to Peter about, Hey, you're kind of setting yourself apart from the Christians in these Gentile areas, because you're still eating separately and keeping kosher laws and that kind of a thing, right.

And my guess is that Peter felt like he still needed to. And he may have been wondering, Are they supposed to or not? And he's trying to figure this out would be my guess as to what's going on. And it takes that second Jerusalem council to convene for the revelation to come and then Peter and everyone else to start to under, well not everyone else will agree. But the church in general is supposed to come to a better understanding of this, although some will disagree and fall away as a result.

Tammy 37:25

Oh, great explanation of all of that. We're gonna have so much fun when we get to chapter 15. So thank you for setting that up perfectly. Awesome. Caleb, what did you notice about Peters change of heart or his experience with this vision?

Caleb 37:39

Yeah, I was just thinking as Kerry was talking here that, you know, at the very beginning, Peter didn't know what he was really doing, either, you know. He, God came to him and said, You need to do something that you're not comfortable doing. And I'm asking you to do that. And Peter's like, Okay, I guess I will. And I don't think Peter, in the moment probably recognized some of these implications that would come. Like, you do realize that if you do this, it's going to pose all these questions about do you need to be Jewish? Or like, what does it mean to follow Christ? I don't think Peter really knew that; he just was kind of doing what he was told. And then, you know, he did it. And he's like, Oh, that was really cool. I'm glad God told me to do that. And then he comes and everyone's like, what are you thinking? This is crazy. He's like, I don't know, it just like kind of made sense. And God told me to do this. And so I did it. And it caused all this contention.

But I just think that if you're a leader or a really, you're anybody, if it makes sense, and you're just kind of going with it. And God has told you to do it, like you, it's revelation. It makes sense doctrinally, you know. They knew that the gospel is going to go to the nations. So Peter wasn't making things up and saying, 'This is what I want. He was saying, This is how I'm following the law that I was given. And this is what I was told, and so I just did it. And like, I'm letting God direct it. I'm letting God push things forward. I'm not pushing my own agenda, I'm just trying to follow God.' And it just continually goes places, and Peter doesn't maybe fully know where it's going.

Tammy 38:47

Right

Caleb 39:35

He's just along where God needs it to go.

Tammy 39:39

You know, when both of you are talking - and I really appreciate your words - because my mind is just reeling right now. Kerry, I really appreciate that you compared this to the 1978 Revelation on the Priesthood, because I think in my mind I've always imagined like, I think the leaders and prophets wanted it. And the people weren't ready and God knew that. And because you see the fallout right here, like Peter's trying to teach something so new and these people are not having it. I mean, it causes so much contention and not just contention with the followers, but also with leadership. Leadership is going to contend and fight with each other about this revelation that the Prophet Peter is receiving. And I just think so much of us, we're in a space right now when we're living in a time where changes are happening, and it doesn't look like what we always thought it would. And we have to trust that our Prophet really is receiving revelation. I, I will just bear witness right now: I have such a strong testimony that the prophet is called of God, and that he will not lead us astray. And that if we follow the Prophet, only good things will happen. Even when it seems uncomfortable, right? Even when you're like, Agh, this is hard. But

Kerry Muhlestein 40:51

This is not what I'm feeling or thinking, or it goes against all these ideas I've had. That's the iconoclast part, right? But

Tammy 40:59

It is.

Kerry Muhlestein 41:00

Amen to what you're saying.

Tammy 41:02

Just stay and watch. I like how Elder Holland says in "Cast Not Away Therefore Thy Confidence", there's a line he says, "Stay and see the beauty of life unfold for you." Like when you stay on the covenant path, when you stay, it really is beautiful. But it's hard, it's not always beautiful. There are some ugly parts, and there were ugly parts for Peter in this experience.

Caleb 41:22

Yeah, and I just can't help think of like Thomas when Jesus had died. And all the other apostles saw Jesus get resurrected. And Thomas wasn't there and missed it and is like, well, I don't I don't know. I don't think that happened. It's not as good as we think it is. And the fact that Thomas continued to show up, you know, to be with the other apostles, even though it didn't make sense. Because he was there he got the revelation that he needed. But if Thomas had just like, left and like, I don't want this. Like, Nope, I don't want you people. I don't want... He would have missed this incredible opportunity. And the fact that the church is always being restored; it hasn't just been restored, it's still being restored. If we leave, we're going to miss see how it will restore.

Tammy 42:18

Beautifully said, amen to that. Well, that was a fun discussion. Thank you to both of you. So here's what we'll do in the next segment, then, we're going to see how the role of revelation and doubt played into this whole scenario with Peter. So we'll do that next.

Segment 4 42:33

....

Tammy 42:47

Okay, we're gonna do a scripture chain, because you guys know how much I love scripture chains. And it's on revelation. Because Peter had this incredible revelation here's a couple of things I want you to just consider when it comes to your own revelations, because you're like, Well, I've never had a Cornelius revelation. An Angel hasn't appeared to me. Well, I don't know. Has an angel appeared to you? So we're going to just read some points about revelation. Now, we are not going to give you all the Scripture references; we want you to go to the show notes and then all the Scripture references are listed and you can mark them and connect them in a scripture chain because we don't have enough time right now. But we're going to read these really cool points about revelation. And we'll start with you - we'll go Kerry, Caleb, and then me. We'll each take a turn and just read one of those bullet points.

Kerry Muhlestein 43:29

-Revelation is communication from God to His children.

Caleb 43:30

-The things of God are known only by revelation.

Tammy 43:31

-God has given revelation to His children from the beginning and will continue to do so.

Kerry Muhlestein 43:35

-Living prophets are guided by revelation and thus can lead us to truth.

Caleb 43:44

-We must trust in God rather than in the wisdom of man.

Tammy 43:54

-Fasting and prayer will help prepare us to receive revelation.

Kerry Muhlestein 44:00

-Personal righteousness is a prerequisite for receiving Revelation.

Caleb 44:05

-Revelation may come by vision.

Tammy 44:08

-Truth may be revealed by an audible voice from heaven.

Kerry Muhlestein 44:13

-Revelation sometimes comes through dreams.

Tammy 44:16

Okay, you guys, from the bullets that we just read is there one that stood out to you?

Kerry Muhlestein 44:21

Yes, but I think that there are some revelations that come - not - when people aren't being righteous. I'm thinking of like Soul and Alma, but that's probably not where we want to go. So, umm

Tammy 44:32

Oh, boy, you're right, you're right. That's true.

Kerry Muhlestein 44:39

But it's okay. But I mean, well, for the most part, what we're talking about, so, sorry. That's what I got distracted by thinking about that. So I didn't have something else to say, yeah.

Tammy 44:45

Okay, but wait a minute. Let's, but let's talk about that, actually. This might be a really good conversation to have because a lot of people are wondering, why did Saul get that revelation when he wasn't doing what was right? And you want to make sure that you mark Acts 13:9 when Saul gets the name changed to Paul. If personal righteousness is a prerequisite for receiving revelation, Saul was not righteous. How do you, how do you make amends with that, Kerry?

Kerry Muhlestein 45:09

I would say there are different kinds of revelation. So I think that revelation can come to anyone, anywhere, any of God's children that says, Repent, or change this, or you need to do this differently - that urging to change or to do things differently. But if you're going to get into, I guess, finer points of revelation, then that comes as you do repent. You have to follow the repent revelation first, and then you can get more revelations.

Tammy 45:42

You know, I'm so grateful you brought that up, Kerry, because as I was reading the story of Saul, it seems like such a big story. And then I thought, I think we're all Sauls.

Kerry Muhlestein 45:50

Yes.

Tammy 45:51

How many times have we had truly thoughts come into our brain that have told us to do things very specific, that are uncomfortable? And then at that point, you make your decision. Are you going to do what is righteous? or retreat? You have two options, righteousness or retreat? And Saul chose righteousness. And that was the turning point for him. So yeah, I think for us personally, we can receive revelation that gets us back on track, even when we're not doing things that are considered righteous. And maybe that's the whole message of our lesson today, is it's reframing the way that Heavenly Father really is no respecter of persons. I mean, I would talk to all of my children no matter what they were doing, right?

Kerry Muhlestein 46:32

Yeah. Well, you think about the Savior if we're going to speak of Him as an iconoclast. Some of the things that bothered people the most in His teachings was His willingness to talk with sinners, or Publicans, and His willingness to reach out to them and and urge them to do better. And so I think that is one of the great lessons of the Savior. He's no respecter of persons. He loves and reaches out to, let's say we're all sinners. So of course He loves and reaches out to sinners, but to people in any state of righteousness or wickedness. But for closer communion, you are going to have to move towards righteousness.

Tammy 47:12

Yeah. In fact, maybe we could even re-word: "Personal righteousness is a prerequisite for receiving MORE revelation."

Kerry Muhlestein 47:18

That's good.

Tammy 47:19

Yeah, I'm going to rewrite that. There you go. Put the word 'more' in there everybody. What about you, Caleb?

Caleb 47:24

Yeah, I just, well, I'm thinking, because this is a conversation I have a lot in my work is I'm a grad student in psychology, I'm getting work being trained as a therapist. So I talked about mental health with a lot of people. And a narrative that I often hear, especially like, with members of the Church, is a fear that people aren't being good enough to be worthy of revelation. And there's always more you could be doing. You could always be praying more, you could always be reading your scriptures more. And I think that when we read scriptures and pray, we're gonna receive a lot of revelation. But I also was just thinking, you know, Saul and Alma the Younger, and I don't know, the Prodigal son who came to himself when he was squandering his inheritance. Like, God came to them also.

And so I think that, while personal righteousness is absolutely going to bring revelation, I think that God cares about you and is going to tell you what you need all the time. And that we can trust that God is going to lead you and is going to help you and is going to push you towards righteousness, and is going to invite you always to come closer to Him. But we don't need to be afraid that we're being bad and we're not getting enough revelation. Because God's gonna do what needs to happen to make you come to Him. And we can just trust that God is going to tell us what we need to hear, and He loves you. And the more you put yourself with Him, the more you're going to get it, but He's going to also do it regardless.

Tammy 49:17

Yes.

Kerry Muhlestein 49:18

Amen. And that maybe circles around on something you were talking about just a second ago, Tammy. So the question is, when He does push you, and whatever stage you are in approaching Him, He's going to push you. So it may be that you've been running the other direction, He's going to try and push you to come back. And maybe you've been running towards Him, but He's going to push you further. But at whatever stage, as He pushes, you will have moments of discomfort where He says, as you said earlier, like, this isn't what I was thinking, I'm not comfortable with this. And then the question is, are we going to keep getting up and coming to Him or not? And when we see that in that story of the Jerusalem council where there are some, there will be some Jews, particularly some of those who were Pharisees, that as they hear the decision of the second Jerusalem council, they're going to be done.

Tammy 49:18

Yeah

Kerry Muhlestein 49:18

They're going to go away. It pushes them and they allow it to push them away rather than pushed towards God. God's always going to push us and it's up to us whether we end up getting pushed towards Him or away from Him.

Caleb 49:18

Yeah.

Tammy 49:18

Well, Kerry, I really like that. I like that so much, because Peter has this vision, which is not what he was thinking at all. It could easily have pushed him away. And here's Peter, right, the Prophet, he's the leader of the church. And even someone who is, in my opinion I would think, so righteous. Look how he responds to this revelation. And we marked these words, but let's go back to Acts 10:17 & 20. Caleb, will you please read verse 17, and then Kerry verse 20 in Acts chapter 10.

Caleb 50:52

"Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate."

Kerry Muhlestein 51:09

Then I'll read verse 20. "Arise therefore, and get thee down and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them."

Tammy 51:15

And that's the angel speaking to Peter. Like, I know you're doubting, I know that "doubting nothing." Talk to me about this, why does it always seem like doubt accompanies revelation?

Kerry Muhlestein 51:27

Well, I think at least one reason is because even when we receive revelation, God doesn't seem to outline the whole course and the whole plan from the beginning. And He leaves a lot of it up to us to figure out and He's gonna give us some more information there. And that's tricky, because then all along the way you're like, Wait, is this how it goes? Is that what it means? Was that just my feelings or was that, right?

Tammy 51:47

Right

Kerry Muhlestein 51:47

And so sometimes, I think the most difficult things are that God, it's our interpretation of the inspiration we've gotten. And we say, okay, He inspired me to do this. And that means this and this and this and this and this will happen. And often it's, No, I just inspired you to do that so you can get to this, you know, intersection so then you can turn right and go. Maybe I can even just share a story.

Tammy 52:50

Great.

Kerry Muhlestein 52:12

I've had that happen a lot of times in my life, but that one that's fairly significant to me. When I was in college, at home from my mission and trying to figure out what I was going to do, I really felt inspired that I needed to teach and teach the gospel. And I felt, I think I was inspired that I needed to pursue being a Seminary teacher. So I kind of interpreted that, that I'd be a Seminary and an Institute teacher. And so I took the courses that you're supposed to take to be able to do that. And I got into this program where you teach for a while, and then they come and observe you and it was going incredibly well. Like the teaching was going well and I just felt great about it. And the day came when they were going to observe me to decide whether they wanted to offer me to keep continuing on with opportunities to teach more and more. And I knew they were coming that day, I set it up, I had my students ready to do some things. I carefully planned and I felt like this was going to be a great lesson.

And then I cannot describe it as anything other than the biggest stupor of thought I've ever had. I got in that classroom and I couldn't think, I couldn't talk. I mean, I'm sure I was talking, but I don't know what I was saying. And the students that were typically great that I'd asked, Hey, could you share this, and I called on them. And they had, they were terrible. I mean, it was just, it was terrible. And then I got a letter that said, we recommend you don't pursue a career in teaching. And that was confusing for me. I thought, but I was there because I was inspired to pursue a career in teaching. And yet there, I don't know what this means. And I really doubted, was that really from God? Or if it was, what am I supposed to do now? And in hindsight, I can see that I wasn't actually supposed to pursue a career in teaching, although I think Seminary teaching is a wonderful, noble career. It's just not what I was supposed to do. I was supposed to teach religion at BYU, Hawaii, and BYU in Provo.

And but taking that class had actually gotten me to where I was starting to take some Hebrew classes. And as I was pursuing those things, then doors opened. And then I received another revelation that says, No, actually now go this way. But the first revelation was supposed to get me to a point where I could get the second revelation. And I had made all the assumptions about where I should go. And it was confusing and caused a lot of doubt in me, but it eventually, as I kept going, further revelation came to let me know where to go from there.

Tammy 54:34

Oh, Kerry, that is such a great story. Because I'm thinking in my mind, home from your mission, you're young. If the revelation had been go take Hebrew classes, I would have been like, there's no career in that, right?

Kerry Muhlestein 54:47

Yeah, that's true.

Tammy 54:49

That's the craziest revelation ever. And so I love how the Lord starts with something simple, like Teach. Oh, that's a career path. Okay. And you've said this all along, which I really appreciate is that we often get revelation and then it's left for our interpretation and our actions. And sometimes God just lets us figure that out, and okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue on this path. Let's hope for the best. And it did turn out for the best for you, but in a completely different way. I did not, just like we talked about earlier, it's not what I thought it would be.

Kerry Muhlestein 55:16

Yeah.

Tammy 55:17

Great story. What about you, Caleb, do you have a story of revelation and doubt?

Caleb 55:21

Oh, yeah. Well, I, I've just been thinking, this is like the story of my life. Every day I'll wake up and wonder, doubt myself and but, you know, honestly, a similar story. I got into my undergrad at BYU. And I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. I know I like learning and I like hearing about lots of different things. I like hearing people and their experiences. And I went in across like five different majors, I kept changing my major, you know. I was in music, then I was in engineering, then I was in, like, religious studies. And I ended up landing in psychology. And then the whole time I was in psychology, I'm like, Well, I like the classes, so okay, I guess I'll just keep taking classes. I like them. And I got to the end and was like, Okay, I just had fun, and I liked what I did. But now what? And so I was like, I guess I'll go to grad school, because maybe I'll figure it out in grad school. And I have a lot of questions I want to take to grad school.

So I still have no idea what I'm doing, but like little thoughts like, Oh, this is interesting, I like this. And I apply to a bunch of different grad programs. And I'm going to the interviews and like, I like this. Okay, I think I might move forward with a PhD in psychology. And lo and behold, I get rejected from every single program that I applied to, except one, where I got on the waiting list. And I was like, Okay, I'm not. And I was devastated. I was like, I thought I was going the right way. And now I don't know what I'm doing. And none of these universities want me here. And what do I do with my life? I have this degree. That I don't know if I want to go further in any other way besides grad school, and I started shifting everything. I was like, Okay, maybe I'll go figure something else out, go work at the Wendy's down the road for awhile or something, figure out my life. And I just was lost, I didn't know. And then a month later, I get an email from the program I'm in now, that was the one I was waitlisted for and said, You're accepted in the program.

And at that point, now, I've completely gone the other way. And I'm like, Well, I don't really want to go to grad school anymore. And now they're like, No, we want you. And so I'm just kind of so torn. And I do what I do, which is I took it to the temple, I walked around Temple Square, and prayed, went and did an endowment session, thought about should I accept this PhD offer that is going to be dedicating six years of my life to a lot of turmoil and a lot of academic work? And I had this very clear answer of You have things to offer this, and I want you in it. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. And ever since then, I still struggle with this doubt. Should I have done this, you know? Should I have taken my career elsewhere? Sometimes research projects I have don't work out, sometimes therapy sessions go really badly. And I'm like, I don't know, like, but I continue to go forward. And I always think about that clear voice of, I need you here.

And I still doubt, like it hasn't gone away. But I also see times where I'm like, this is incredible. Like, I will have this incredible experience with someone, I'll learn something, I'll like get this paper published, whatever, people telling me Wow, this is so cool, I love what you're doing. I'm like, Yeah, this is great. But it's also with this other experience of I don't know, maybe you shouldn't have. And I just think that's part of life is that you're going to always have a battle inside of you. And what if we just kind of like, drop that battle and just go where God tells you and you're gonna feel that conflict, but maybe that conflict also means you're on the right path at the same time.

Tammy 59:43

Yes, for sure. In fact, as you were talking, I was reminded of what Kerry said earlier when he goes, I guess, and he said it tongue in cheek, but then he was like, No, actually it's true when you said the devil's in the details. And he said, No, actually he really is in the details. And I thought the devil in my experience, the devil is always in the details of revelation, either right before you receive something, or immediately after. Satan is there to either confuse you and make sure that you are like, Oh, I don't know. And, and again, the best talk is "Cast Not Away, Therefore Thy Confidence" by Elder Holland. You're gonna want to read that because he, he really goes into this beautiful detail about Revelation and doubting. And like you said, Caleb, it is a part of life. And that is where the devil is in the details. But he's so clever and so crafty. And especially when it is something that is right, he is on your front porch, just to make you discount anything you experienced, or felt.

And so I've experienced that in my own life, for sure. It almost led me down a path of never ever getting married. Like I felt, and I never received revelation to marry the person I'm married to. Let me be clear about that it just always felt right. That was my revelation. I didn't have an angel. I just felt peaceful. I felt like this is the person, yeah, like this is, it just was always right. And I remember thinking, I probably should pray and ask Heavenly Father before we actually do marry him. So the day before we were supposed to get married, I prayed about it. And then Heavenly Father was like, Give me a break. You already know the answer. But it was funny because right also before I prayed, I had received doubts. And all of a sudden, just out of nowhere, it was like, every doubt you could possibly imagine. And it was so terrifying to me, and so scary, because I thought I had felt peace. And then I did read that talk by Elder Holland. I'm like, Oh, that's what I'm experiencing. Satan's the worst! And so, it even he's that way with Peter.

And a prophet of the Lord receives this revelation and Kerry, it goes back to what you said: One of the single most important revelations for the future of Christianity, right here, you better believe Satan is going to come in and make Peter doubt. And then how great for the angel to go, Listen, just go, doubting nothing. Like, just trust, right?

Kerry Muhlestein 1:01:52

And there's really something to that. It has such a profound influence on your life when you can do that. I can think of a number of things in my life where I, and many of them, I'm still in the middle of where I've undertaken a pretty big thing that's not easy, and not what I had originally planned on. But I felt like inspired this is what I need to do. And then sometimes things go wrong. And there have been times where I'm like, oh, is this what I'm supposed to do? I've learned to say I know I received that revelation, and then just a peace comes to you. You still have to figure out how to deal with it and whatever else, but you just have this knowledge I'm doing what God asked me to do. I may not be doing it perfectly, but I'm doing it to my best, and so God will make this work out. And there have been some pretty crazy things that have happened in my, as I'm trying to do things, that I'm like, I don't know how this one turns out. But I don't have to have a terrible fear over it. There's still a peace in the midst of that if I remember. Well I'm just doing this because God asked me to, and God takes care of it in ways that you don't expect. But He takes care of it and it works out and you can go through that with turmoil or you can go through it with peace.

Tammy 1:02:58

Wow, perfect.

Caleb 1:02:59

Yeah. And I, I just can't help but think of like, one of my favorite quotes is "There's no growth in a comfort zone. And there's no comfort in a growth zone." And yeah, like, I think that part of knowing that you're on God's path is that you're not fully comfortable, and that things are struggly and doubty. And it might be a sign that you're actually going exactly where God wants you to go.

Tammy 1:03:27

Oh, Caleb, thank you for that final quote right there. Because that is perfect for what we're going to talk about next. Because in the next segment, we're going to read about a story and experiences where people are in the growth zone, and they are very uncomfortable. So we'll talk about that next.

Segment 5 1:03:43

.....

Kerry Muhlestein 1:03:58

So here's the age-old question and I really want to know your thoughts on this: Like why does God allow difficult things to happen to righteous, good people?

That's a great question that, as you say, people in every culture, in every faith tradition have wrestled with, whether it's Job or Peter or Alma or whoever. And I particularly like some of the things Elder Maxwell has taught about this where he says, you know, sometimes this is the result of bad choices. Sometimes it's just the result of living in a fallen world. We signed up to have a world that would force us to grow, to go back to what Caleb talked about with, you know, we can't be comfortable the whole time if we're going to grow. So in a world where our bodies don't go right, other people around us choose poorly, the world has cataclysmic events and whatever else right? And sometimes it's God giving us difficult things so that we will grow, but the the answer for all of them really is that it is that adversity that creates the growth. So to go back to where I guess we're in a growth zone, so we, we can't be comfortable.

Tammy 1:05:11

Umm-Hmm.

Caleb 1:05:13

Yeah, it's so funny because we have this tendency, I think to sometimes say, you know, if you follow what you're supposed to, if you read your scriptures, if you go to church, then your life's gonna be good, you'll be happy. And I do think you find the most joy that you'll ever find when you follow God. But it's also kind of interesting that when you look at all the followers of Christ in the scriptures, rarely are their lives going well, you know. Nephi and Lehi all got, and then what does He say, go live in the desert without any food and be miserable for a long time. And

Kerry Muhlestein 1:05:50

have your family try to kill you.

Tammy 1:05:51

Yeah.

Caleb 1:05:51

Oh, yeah, that, too.

Tammy 1:05:52

Yeah, and there's that.

Caleb 1:05:55

And like Abinidi. Like, go tell King Noah that he's to repent, and then you're gonna die. And then he dies. And

Tammy 1:06:04

Yeah

Caleb 1:06:05

over and over again we just see that the followers of Christ have hard things. And I think that's part of, you know, God is asking us to lean into, you know, 'Are you willing to give everything to Me? Because I can save you. But you have to give everything to Me in order for Me to save you. 'And, I mean, I feel so strange saying, like, be willing to die, but it is what we come into the temple like, are we willing to give everything to God? Because God is willing to give everything to us, including His life. And he did.

Tammy 1:06:48

Yes. Well, thank you to both of you for your answers to that. Let's turn to Acts chapter 12 and let's read about bad things happening to good people. And we're just going to read verses 1-5. And Kerry, will you please read these for us?

Kerry Muhlestein 1:07:00

Sure. "Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword." That part just makes me sad, by the way.

Tammy 1:07:12

Tell me why.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:07:13

Because this is the Peter, James, and John we always think of, right. These are the three that were with the Savior. And it's really not very long after the Savior has left that we lose James. It's a sad thing. But I mean, bless James, but he was killed for believing.

Tammy 1:07:33

Yep.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:07:33

3: "And because he" [meaning Herod] ""saw it please the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of the unleavened bread.)" So it's Passover. "And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers, to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people." So they wouldn't have called it Easter, yes, so this is really after Passover, right.

Tammy 1:07:34

Yes.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:07:38

5: "Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him." Now, that part I love, that when they hear Peter's in prison, and everyone just starts praying.

Tammy 1:08:07

Yes, thank you so much, Kerry. In fact, underline in verse 5. We have the sad things, James is dead and Peter's in prison. But I love that you found the silver lining. Verse 5: "....but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him." And then just draw a line from verse 5 across the page and connect it up there with verse 12. Here are the saints that are praying for Peter. And they're in the house of "Mary, the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many" [circle 'many'], "many were gathered together praying." And Peter in the story, he actually ends up being freed from the prison, an angel comes and he escapes and he runs. And he runs to the house of Mary, and we have this awesome story in verses 13, 14, and 15.

And again, talk about bad things happening to good people, but somebody who made good out of her situation is this little servant girl named Rhoda, which, oh, I love this story so much. Here they are praying in Mary's house. Peter knocks at the door of the gate and it says "a damsel came to hearken, named Rhoda." It was traditionally a servant girl's responsibility to answer the door. So Rhoda goes and she would have been a female slave in the home of Mary - not fun right? Bad things happening to probably good people. And verse 14, "And when she knew Peter's voice" [now this is so fun,] "she opened not the gate for gladness ,but she ran in, and told how Peter stood before the gate."

Kerry Muhlestein 1:09:31

I love that part. Peter's out there, he's like, Hey, I'm still out here.

Tammy 1:09:35

Yeah, let me in, I'm fleeing for my life. So she runs back into the house and tells everybody Peter's at the gate and they say unto her, "Thou art mad." Don't you just like that? 'You're crazy, he's in prison', nevermind the fact they've been praying for him, that their prayers might have been answered. "Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so." And that's the part I highlighted. She constantly affirmed that it was even so. And then they said "it is his angel. " But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished." I liked

Kerry Muhlestein 1:10:08

And he's probably like, thanks for finally letting me in.

Tammy 1:10:11

Totally. And we have this sweet servant girl Rhoda, who constantly affirmed that it was even so. That is so striking to me because that is what we're asked to do as members of the church, even when we're in moments of - and I wonder if she even doubted that - she didn't. She constantly affirmed that it was even so, when everyone was like, There's no way it's him. You're crazy, you're nuts, you're just a servant girl. And she was like, No, it really is. You can go see for, it really is him, go check it out. And just how strong and strengthened she was through all this. And we'll talk more about Rhoda on our episode of "Unnamed Women of the New Testament" with Camille Fronk Olson cuz she has so much to say about Rhoda, so go check that out on Apple podcasts. And that episode will be available this winter, and you won't want to miss it. So, go check it out. But right here we have this story. Yes, bad things happen to good people. And there is silver lining in all of this. I want us to read this quote, this is by Elder Dallin. H Oaks about why bad things happen to good people. Caleb, will you read this for us - kind of reminds me of what Kerry's already been talking about today. This is good.

Caleb 1:11:12

"God rarely infringes on the agency of any of His children by intervening against some for the relief of others. But He does ease the burdens of our afflictions and strengthen us to bear them. He does not prevent all disasters, but He does answer our prayers to turn them aside. Through all mortal opposition, we have God's assurance that He will consecrate our afflictions for our gain."

Tammy 1:11:43

Thank you. Excellent. Any thoughts on that quote?

Caleb 1:11:47

I like how there's kind of two things going on here. On one hand, God has kind of put us all on the earth to figure things out. Like He wants us to kind of learn, and He's willing to let all this bad stuff happen, like horrible stuff. I mean, there is a lot of suffering going on in the world that you see. And you're like, how could this, how could there possibly be a god that, why would they let this poor child have this horrible thing happen? And I just think that it goes to show how important agency is, how important God wants us to exercise and learn agency. And also, that God knows suffering. And as with people in their suffering, I can't help but think that people who go through the most horrendous suffering, like, see God through it all. And we can't know, maybe because we haven't heard about it, but you can't help but think that Christ is with people in every moment of their suffering, even when we as the outside looker can't see that part of it.

Tammy 1:13:06

Wow. Caleb, Caleb, Caleb, okay. I just have to say, I was so struck with your wording when you said, "Christ is with people in every moment of suffering." Like, when you said it, I was like, I believe that. Like I really do believe what you said. So thank you for saying that. In fact, let's just take a minute because I want us to read some really powerful scriptures on this idea and topic of suffering and why it is part of this mortal experience we're having - an unfortunate part and necessary. Let's go to Helaman 12:3, and Kerry, will you read this verse for us.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:13:43

"And thus we see that except the Lord doth chastened his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him."

Tammy 1:14:01

Thank you. Let's go to another one. Mosiah 23:21 & 22. Caleb, will you read these.

Caleb 1:14:09

"Nevertheless the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people; yea, he trieth their patience and their faith. Nevertheless - whosoever put his trust in him the same shall be lifted up at the last day. Yea, and thus it was with this people."

Tammy 1:14:25

I'm sure many people listening were like, Oh, I get that. Try their patience and faith. Yeah, can I get an amen? And then lastly, we'll go to Mosiah 24:15. So this is the story in Mosiah 24 about Alma and his people. And so this is the verse that talks about the burdens that were placed on their backs. And verse 15 says, "And now it came to pass that the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren were made light;" Now that's interesting, like they weren't taken away. The people prayed for help, and God didn't come in and just clear it all out and make it better. He just made the burdens light. It says, "yea, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up their burdens with ease, and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord."

That word 'patience' really struck me right there. These, we read that: submit cheerfully. That's not easy. But the part is "with patience to all the will of the Lord." Because I felt like, for me, sometimes the waiting and the patience part is worse than the actual affliction. Like you go through the thing you're like, that was harf, but the patience waiting -agh. Waiting for the lesson, waiting for the outcome, that can almost be worse. So after all of this discussion, and I appreciate everything that both of you have said about hardships, and especially this idea of patience. You know, being a disciple of Christ as we've talked about, it's not always equated with ease. It just isn't. And especially in situations where it seems like it should be the easiest. So we're going to show you what we mean by that in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:15:50

.....

Tammy 1:16:05

Everyone turn to Acts chapter 15. Kerry has beautifully introduced this to us several times. So go to Acts chapter 15 and write what Kerry called this: 'The 2nd Jerusalem council.' I like how you call it that. I put to the outside 'General Conference', like one of the earliest General Conferences. So this is a Jerusalem council. And you just would think that Peter meeting with the other apostles, this would be easy. Hey, guys, I had this revelation, and there's going to be change. And they would just be met with, All right, everybody on board. And it wasn't, not at all, and it was a really hard sell. And that is the message of this chapter - Acts 15. In fact, let's just start out by reading verse 1 & 2. Caleb, will you read that for us.

Caleb 1:16:48

Yeah. "And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

Tammy 1:17:16

Okay. So I cross referenced verse 1 to Luke 5:37. We're not going to go there but we've studied this before. In Luke 5:37 is the teaching of old wine in new bottles. That's what we've got going on here. We have an old law, old wine, in new bottles. And if you put the old wine in the new bottles, it will burst and it will cause everything to be destroyed. And so Peter has new wine. And these people are not wanting to partake of any of it. So they call this '2nd Jerusalem council.' And they come up and Peter is going to teach his people and the ideas of things that they believed. And I asked Carrie, again, beings you're so smart about all of this, just talk to us a little bit about what's going on in Acts 15 that you feel like we should know as students.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:18:03

And if it's all right, I'd like to set the scene a little bit. The chapters in between, we'll just recap briefly, but they're crucial for understanding this and everything else throughout the rest of Acts. So, Barnabas has been sent to an area called Antioch. It's in, right on the modern-day Syria/Turkey border, it's just barely inside of Turkey. And he gets Saul there and the Spirit tells him that they should go preach at places. So they're going out and they start to preach and they're, they're preaching to Jews in the synagogue. So it's still, even this is after Peter's revelation, that the Gentiles gonna have the gospel. But still they go and they preach to the Jews. And in the synagogue, the Jews are listening, and they like it, and they come back the next week. But during that week, word has spread to all of the Gentiles in the city, which are more than the Jews, and they come to listen also. And the Jews are like, No, we're separatists, basically. And we, Paul and Barnabas are willing to teach the Gentiles and they don't want it so the Jews start to oppose them.

So Paul and Barnabas make the decision, Then we'll just teach the Gentiles. And they teach them using the Old Testament, they teach them and they're getting tons of converts, and it makes the Jews so upset that they have to leave. And that happens in city after city after city. So they go on this big circuit to another Antioch and a bunch of other places. They go on this big circuit off to Cyprus, and so on. Anyway, they come back to where they started and that's where this discussion happens, where people say, Hey,these guys, these Gentiles that have joined need to be circumcised and they're like, no, they don't. So let's go to Jerusalem to go over this matter. So the story in that they're dealing with in Jerusalem, is that suddenly there are Gentile converts - a whole bunch of them all over the place. We don't know numbers of Gentile or Jewish converts, but it's probably getting to be where there might be as many Gentile converts as there are Jewish converts. And that's the the setting for this question: Well, what do we do?

Half the church is circumcised and the other half isn't. And there's a group and in particular, it's a bunch of Pharisees that have become converted to following Christianity. So that's an interesting story in and of itself. That's on my own podcast have been kind of trying to follow the different things going on with Pharisees. And this tells us that there were a number of them that were Christian. Paul was one of them. But there are a number of them that are Christian, but they have this focus on the law. So they're going to be the ones that say they need to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, and the, that's going to make Paul and Barnabas unhappy. And I love what Peter teaches. And this is, it goes back to your idea of we're seeing Peter continuing to develop his understanding, because he reminds them that God has made it clear that the Gentiles should receive the gospel. But as we said, that doesn't necessarily answer the question about whether they need to keep the Law of Moses or not.

But then Peter tells them, let's just read verse 10. Really, well 9 & 10. It says, in 8 the Holy Ghost comes to them, and it "put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." And then in verse 10, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" So what he's saying, and I just want to say, I actually think that the law of Moses is powerful. And when lived correctly, it points people to Christ. We see that in the Book of Mormon with all the group that Ammon and Aaron and Omner and Himni convert, it can lead you to Christ when done correctly. But most of the time it's not done correctly. And Peter calls this a yoke. He says, Our fathers weren't doing this well, and we're not doing this well. So why should we ask someone else to do it? Now that's a bold thing to say to Pharisees, even though they're Christian Pharisees. To say to Pharisees whose life is about knowing and teaching the law, to say, This is a yoke that is too heavy, let's not do it. Right. Peter is Peter is a bold guy. And only Peter can say this, but even Peter saying it is not going to be enough.

What we have, what we now have is, so Peter is, the word apostle gets used a lot in Acts, and it really means someone who's sent forth, right. And then there we call the Twelve, who like we would call it the Counsel of the Twelve They're Apostles with a capital A, as opposed to a small a, which is anyone who's sent forth, right. So Barnabas is called an apostle. I don't think he's one of the 12, he's someone who's been sent forth. And some people debate whether Paul is the small a or big A apostle, I don't think we know. But in any case, we have Peter as this head of the group that goes throughout all the church, but we have also the leadership in Jerusalem. And it seems like the leader is James the brother of Jesus. So this is not James the brother of John - that Peter, James and John, or that James. This is James the brother of Jesus, who, with the last time we saw, was not really fully converted to following his brother. But at this point must be and is a leader. And he's going to kind of be the the deal broker here, seemingly as the leader of the - I don't know if you want to call it the Jerusalem stake or something like that, I don't know. I mean, they are notreally organized that way. But and

Tammy 1:23:25

In fact, go to verse 13, those of you listening, and put a square around the name James. There he is right there. That's where we meet him. I put "James, brother of Jesus" next to that so we know who it is

Kerry Muhlestein 1:23:35

Perfect. And he says, Hearken to me. So this is him saying, Okay, it's time to listen up.

Tammy 1:23:41

Yep.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:23:42

Verse 14, "Simeon" [or Simon, or Peter] "hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name." Now, that's the phrase that's used for Israel, the people for His name, and the people who put His name upon them. That's the phrase for Israel. So he's saying that they are going to be of Israel. And there's an interesting theme that's been running throughout these things. So if you were to go back to say chapter 13, when Paul starts teaching the Gentiles and so on, and the Jews aren't so sure about it, he quotes Isaiah. And I don't know why it's not in our footnotes, it doesn't reference us to it, but he says that we are going to be a light unto the Gentiles. Well, that's from Isaiah chapter 42. So he's showing hey, actually, we've got lots of scriptures all along that have been teaching us that the Gentiles are supposed to be part of this. And so James is going to reference that. And he's also going to reference in verse 16 - and this is in our footnotes - he's going to reference Amos. In Amos chapter 9 when he says, he talks about a tabernacle,

so verse 16, "After this I will return, and we'll build again the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles,...." Now there he's starting to kind of paraphrase a little bit, and so on. But he's using Amos to demonstrate that God said that the word would go to the Gentiles, so he's kind of doubling down on that idea. But then he's going to say, If we're going to really accept the Gentiles, let's make this easier for them. And they come up with only three things that they're going to ask of all Christians. So they don't ever say that Jews don't have to be circumcised or Jews don't have to keep the Law of Moses. It seems like if they want to, fine. But all Christians have to do these three things. In verse 20, we get the three things that he is asking or suggesting, and that this will be ratified that all Christians do. And he wants to write them "that they abstain from pollutions of idols." So that means don't eat of things that are being offered to idols. "and from fornication," - that's an age old law, right. "and from things strangled, and from blood."

Now, those two were lumped together because they really do belong together. And this predates the Law of Moses, this is, so it's not part of the law of Moses, this is something that was told to Noah. That when you eat an animal, you shouldn't eat it in its blood. And so you have to kill it in a certain way so that the blood will run out, rather than so strangled as a way of saying if it died in any way, other than in this prescribed way, that will get the blood out of the meat. And there are a lot of theological things behind blood and life and so on going on there. But that's all they're going to ask. They're not going to ask circumcision, they're not going to ask them to keep kosher food, or any of these other things. It's just those three things. And you can be baptized and you don't have to basically become a Jewish Christian, you can be a Gentile Christian.

Tammy 1:26:40

Wow. Thank you. That was incredible. One of the verses I marked as I was studying acts 15 was verse 11. And I just love the way Peter phrased this, because it just made me laugh a little bit. And it's almost like he's sticking it to him in a way. I mean, because if it was said to us this way, I don't know. I just love his wording. He says, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

Kerry Muhlestein 1:27:06

Yeah.

Tammy 1:27:06

I mean, you can just imagine, going, Wait, what? No, they can't be saved. They haven't been circumcised, they're not living the Law of Moses. And he, he could have so easily said, Listen, they're gonna be saved like us. But he doesn't. He's like, Oh, we we will be saved even as they are. And that for me is just like, Oh, he's so good. Peter, I love him.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:27:25

And it's also an emphasis on 'by the way, you're not being saved by being circumcised or keeping the Law of Moses either. That's not what's saving you. So why are we worrying about that?'

Tammy 1:27:35

Yes, absolutely. And so they write a letter in verse 23. I like that this is sort of like an official declaration. They write a letter stating, Okay, from here on out, here's how we're going to believe, here's who can listen and receive and be baptized, and the rules. And they all unanimously, in verse 31, "they rejoiced for this consolation." Or and down below I like the footnote, "for this exhortation, this solace or persuasion." Like they all rejoiced; it took some time, took some talking to, and some discourse, but through this General Conference they have or the second Jerusalem - like how you call it Kerry, the second Jerusalem council - they all rejoice, and then they can carry on now with preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and just spreading Christianity everywhere. So just like Kerry said, you can see how important these chapters are. And going clear back to the revelation that Peter received, it really is. Oh I loved how you phrased it, Kerry, one of the single-most important revelations for Christianity to spread. I'd never considered that. That was awesome. Caleb, any last thoughts?

Caleb 1:28:39

Yeah, well, I just think it's funny how it keeps saying through the verses, like in verse 39, that contention was so sharp between them. I like they disagree with each other, and people are mad. And I don't think that revelation comes cleanly and easy. It come, and people are mad at each other and like, are fighting. And they're like, You are so wrong. And they're like, well, you're so wrong. And that is like a staple of what it means to be in God's church, because God wants everybody to be there, all the tribes. And all the tribes don't agree with each other. And so I think some people will hear about some of the messiness that goes on in like the church making decisions and like changing policies. And I don't know, to me, it shows how true the church is - the fact that it's willing to let these disagreements happen, and that it's a part of the proces. Like it's okay to be angry at each other. That doesn't mean that you're bad or that you're going down the wrong path.

But the fact that you can be angry, and then it leads to like unified decisions moving forward to now, you know, the chair Churche is doing incredible things across the world. Like it's providing water, it's solving world hunger. It's like, you know, President Nelson is saying, Be peaceful to everybody. Like, and the fact that so much good happened at a start that was so messy, just testifies to me that God is at the center of it all, because He's bringing everyone together when they don't want to be together. And then making so many miracles happen because of it. So I don't know. I'm just thinking about how this testifies the truthfulness of Christ at the head of our church.

Tammy 1:30:38

And like you pointed out that we're in the restoration, it wasn't a one time event.

Caleb 1:30:43

Oh, yeah.

Tammy 1:30:44

That's really powerful. Thank you. And going to those verses, verses 36-41, I do like that part of the story. I'm grateful that Luke kept that in, because they have this really great experience. They all agree, here's how we're going to preach. So they set off on their mission. And they're contentious and they're fighting because Paul does not want to serve a mission with Mark. So Barnabas is like, All right, fine. I'll go with Mark, you can go with Silas. And then they're human again, right? They're apostles, they're prophets, they have revelation. And they don't really, sometimes they just don't like each other. And that's okay. Those verses crack me up. So thank you. Wow, that was a great discussion you guys. That's it. That's the end of our episode. So much to cover, so short time, but we, I think we did a great job. - you guys specifically coming prepared to discuss this. So just take a minute, gather your thoughts, and what is your takeaway from today's discussion?

Kerry Muhlestein 1:31:39

One of the things I love about this is how well it jives with even some of our prophetic emphases we're receiving today, this idea that we include everybody. President Nelson has been really emphatic about that in a number of talks in places. We include everyone, we put aside our differences. You may have disagreements or you may disagree, but find a way to do it that allows unity to come thereafter. And this is a process that will knock our rough edges off and we all have rough edges, and they don't come off easily. And it's usually, you know, if you're going to smooth rocks, you do it by friction with other rocks. So we all have to get in this messy jumble together. And we'll end up being smooth if we'll stay in it. And if we'll stay in it, it includes following God's revelations and including everyone and loving everyone and bringing everyone to Christ together. And that's the message that we get from these chapters is the message we're getting from our prophets today. And so I think I need to take it fairly seriously.

Tammy 1:32:46

Great takeaway.

Caleb 1:32:49

Yeah, that's really good. I'm just thinking about my own experiences in the church and with people. And honestly, not even just in the church, but in like just my relationships with friends and with family, where it's so easy to get into this mindset of like, it's my way or the highway. And even you're like, you know, I'm being a good person. I, I'm right and they're the ones that are wrong. And it, you know, President Nelson, his most recent General Conference talk, you know, talks about being a peacegiver and not having contention. And then he has that part where he's like, you may think that this is good for someone else to hear. And he's like, Oh, I hope it helps. And then he's like, but, and then he says, but I hope that you can hear from something from it too. And like this recognition that we are all contentious, we all think that we're right.

And God is there to continually invite us to be humbled and to say, Actually, God, you know more. I'm willing to drop my pride, I'm willing to be humble and try to have an open mind, even though I really don't want to, and try to love people that I don't like. And I know that I have problems with this, I judge people all the time. And I think that, you know, if they'd just do better than they would be happier. But maybe I need to just say, Maybe there's something I can learn from them, and not be so judgy, and recognize that God is calling us all to let go of what we think to follow Him.

Tammy 1:34:34

Well, thank you, Caleb, thank you to both of you for your viewpoints and your takeaways. My takeaway was Kerry, first of all the way you set this up perfectly by saying "it was the single-most important revelation for the spread of Christianity." And I think that was a great way to frame our discussion today. And it continues to be important as we spread Christianity among our brothers and sisters, in and out of the church. Things are going to change And we have to be willing to allow for that change and go, 'Oh, wait. I can eat unclean food or whatever.' I just think the way you set it up was perfect. And then Caleb, when you said "God is the great iconoclast" by CS Lewis. That was so cool to have that as part of our discussion today. So, thank you. Thank you for coming prepared and for your discussion. This was awesome. You guys are great.

Caleb 1:35:21

This was great. I loved it.

Tammy 1:35:23

So fun to reunite you two.

Kerry Muhlestein 1:35:25

It was. Thank you for that.

Caleb 1:35:27

Thanks That was so fun.

Tammy 1:35:28

Bye. Okay, you guys. We want to know what your thoughts are. Oh, gosh, I would love to know what you're all thinking. So if you haven't joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. It is a great place where you can ask questions or just write out what you're thinking. And then at the end of the week, we ask a question from this podcast, or we will repost the challenge that I gave you. So comment on the post that relates to this specific lesson and share your answers and thoughts. You can get tto our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living.com/Sunday on Monday. And go there, it's because we're going to have links to all the references as well as the scripture chain on revelation and a transcript of this whole discussion and then a glue-in, so go check it out.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our incredible study group participants were Caleb Farley and Kerry Muhlestein. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me; it is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

And please remember: you are God's favorite.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai