38: “A Marvellous Work and a Wonder” (Isaiah 13–14; 24–30; 35)

Tammy 0:03

If you've listened to past episodes, you know I love to say Jesus is coming because it's true. Jesus will come again. But I've noticed that all this discussion about the last days has led my two youngest to consistently and, by the way, without any prompting for me, pray for this. "Please help us to be prepared for the Second Coming and help us to be safe during the Second Coming." Now, these two love to pray so every time there's an opening for a prayer in Primary and in Young Women's, adults have started to mention this part of their prayers to me or my husband. Listen, you guys, I promise we're not scaring them at home. But the events of the Second Coming, and specifically, in Isaiah chapter 13-35, it can be a little frightening. But after today's discussion, you might not find them as scary as you thought. And, might even be excited when you think about how Jesus is coming.

Tammy 0:53

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. K, if you're new to our study group, we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link that's in our description. And it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance our Come, Follow Me study, just like my friend Kristen Collins and her daughter Sabrina. Hi, guys. Now another awesome thing about our study group, and it's my favorite, is that each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always a little bit different. And today we have - oh boy am I excited - because these are new guests, but they're my old friends. And I am excited to introduce you to Larrie Christensen and Heather James. Hi, ladies.

Heather James 1:36

Hello,

Larrie 1:37

Tammy.

Tammy 1:38

Okay, we did the math. We've known each other for 30 years. Larrie has been my second mom for 30 years, right?

Larrie 1:44

That's what you say, and I'm happy to claim that.

Tammy 1:47

I'm not making that up; since 1988 when you guys moved to Missouri and then I just took hold on you and your daughter was my very best friend growing up. And so, but Heather, you were getting married at the time, so I didn't get to know you as well.

Heather 2:02

We got married the year they moved to St. Louis. So yeah.

Tammy 2:05

So I just met Heather, the married sister, when she'd come back into town.

Heather 2:10

You did, indeed.

Tammy 2:12

So you two are living in Missouri now. Is that correct?

Heather 2:15

Yeah. We are. We are next door neighbors actually. In fact, now, in telling you a little bit about us. I am a first child. My husband is a first child, my mom's a first child. So you can imagine the dynamics there. We lived in the same house for nine, nine months or so, 10 months. And now we live with just a wall separating us and we still like each other.

Tammy 2:40

Well, what's not to like? Let's be very clear. I bet it's so much fun. Do you talk every day?

Heather 2:45

Yes, we do. The first thing we need to do is unlock the back door to our porch. And then we just go over when we need to talk or need something or whatever. So yeah. It's great.

Tammy 2:56

That is great. That's happy.

Heather 2:59

It is.

Tammy 3:01

How often are you over there, Larrie?

Larrie 3:02

How often am I over there? Is that what you said?

Tammy 3:05

Yeah

Larrie 3:04

Whenever I have anything I need to talk to somebody about, which is frequent.

Tammy 3:06

Well, I think that's so fantastic. Well, and if some of you are listening, and you're thinking that it might be a little bit odd that there's a woman named Larrie, her name is spelled L-A-R-R-I-E. And Larrie, tell us a little bit about your name.

Larrie 3:24

My name has been a subject for discussion since probably when I was very, very little. My favorite story is when I walked into a hotel in St. George a few years ago, and I walked in and he said, Last name, please. And I said, Christensen. And then he looked in his computer and he said, would that be under Larry? And I said yes, because I was so excited that he pronounced it correctly. And then he said, Is Larry here yet? That's my life.

Tammy 3:58

That is your life. Oh, I think that's great. So there you go. We got Larrie. And she's here. And her daughter, Heather. So I'm so glad to have you both join me today. Now if you want to know more about my guests, you can find their bios in our show notes which are at LDS living.com/Sunday On Monday, so go check it out so you can read about them. Okay, we are going to dive into Isaiah. Last week, Don Perry did such a great job introducing us to Isaiah and giving us some cool tips and tricks about how to understand it. And so this week, we just get to dig in. So make sure you have your scriptures, something to write with, your Scripture Journals, and let's dig in to Isaiah. Okay, so I want to know, you two: how would you respond to a child's prayer like that in primary?

Larrie 4:43

I would be thrilled that a child was was realizing that there was a second coming and that they needed to be good.

Tammy 4:52

Okay, I'm gonna take some credit then. Yes, that's exactly what we teach in my house.

Larrie 4:56

Yeah, I think that would be thrilling.

Tammy 5:00

Funny,

Heather 5:00

I feel the same. Isaiah, reading Isaiah growing up, it often, you know, we talk about it being scary. But when you think about the word scaring, I also think about the word scarring. And Isaiah has the potential to - Isaiah, Revelations, those kinds of things - about the Second Coming having the potential to really scar an individual until they understand more of the whole picture.

Tammy 5:25

That's so great. Okay, well, then let's let's understand the whole picture then in today's episode. So let's dive into Isaiah chapter 13. And we're just going to look at one verse right now. Let's go to Isaiah 13:1, and just one word is how we're going to start. So in Isaiah 13:1, it says "the burden". We just have to stop with the word 'burden' right there and use the footnote down below. Look at the word 'burden' for Isaiah 13:1, letter B, and highlight that down in your footnotes, because it says the word "'Burden' as used in Isaiah is a message of doom......(And then it says} 'lifted up' against a people." Like a message of doom, this could be scary. So I asked my guests ahead of time to read over Isaiah chapter 13 and share with us what are the messages of doom just in Isaiah chapter 13? So share with us what you came up with, what are some of the verses you marked that seemed doom-worthy?

Heather 6:20

Right off the bat, verse 6, "Howl ye:" I mean, how often do you hear that word? Usually it's a scary monster or a wolf in the forest or something. Howl is the thing that we are going to be doing because it's such a terrible time.

Tammy 6:34

Very doom-worthy; good start, way to go. Keep going.

Larrie 6:38

Okay, so in verse 11, it says lay low the haughtiness of the tyrants. And that, that, I can't even imagine looking at all the tyrants in our world today, what that is going to look like. But verse 13, when it talks about shaking the heavens and the earth moving out of it's place? I can't imagine anything more frightening than to be on this earth and have it..... I've experienced earthquakes, but this sounds like more than an earthquake. This is changing paces This is moving.

Tammy 7:13

Yeah. Oh, good one, good one.

Heather 7:17

Verse 14. Isaiah 13:14, "....it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up:". It reminded me of the lesson of the cheetah and the topis that Elder Bednar talked about, and how the cheetah can go from zero to 60 in three seconds, and there were those senior topis that stood up above on higher ground. And as the cheetahs approached, when they got really close, Elder Bednar said they, the topis, just scattered. And he doesn't know how they got the message, but they got it. And so, but then they're cheetahs. Their tactics, they never give up. They keep coming back, they keep trying. They're a natural predator. And that might be how we feel, then.

Tammy 8:01

That's a great connection to that talk, Heather. I appreciate that you connected that to that verse and the way you described that verse. That is scary. And scarring, if you don't run fast enough. Very good. Okay, continue on. Any other verses that stood out to you?

Larrie 8:15

Well, there were verses that stood out, but the whole time I was thinking about Isaiah having to give this message to his people. And I thought that must have been a burden for him. That's, just kept coming back to me: what a burden for Isaiah to have to share that message of gloom and doom.

Tammy 8:33

Yeah. Well, and one of the things we've learned so far, and Don Parry did a great job of teaching this, is that Isaiah is mult-layered. So Isaiah is seeing this for his people, but he's also seeing it for us. And that is what is so striking about this. So let's go into Isaiah 13:1 again; we read the word burden and now we want to read of Babylon. And Babylon's a really important word in Scripture. And the thing that's important for us to remember, is again, there are different layers to Isaiah. So Isaiah is literally speaking to Babylon and to the people who are going to be destroyed during the Babylonian captivity. But he's also speaking to us. This is a great way to view Babylon. If you want to write it somewhere on your scriptures, we have two quotes about this, and you can find these in our show notes. But I'll have Larryie and Heather read this for us.

Larrie 9:20

"Babylon is the world, but specifically Babylon incarnates arrogance, pride, and insatiable corruption in opposition to God and His Kingdom. It stands in contrast to the Heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, where the law of God thrives."

Tammy 9:37

Thank you.

Heather 9:38

"Babylon is not to be converted but destroyed. We would have healed Babylon but she is not healed. fForsake her. Any that linger in Babylon will be taken with her plagues. For after today cometh the burning and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon."

Tammy 9:56

"And that scripture can be found in Section 64:24 of the Doctrine and Covenants. So Babylon is a place that we don't want to be a part of, and it's our world that we're living in. And a lot of destruction is going to happen to Babylon. In fact, let's just turn to the section heading of Isaiah 24:33 and 34. And let's look at what will happen to Babylon. So Isaiah 24 section heading, and I'll read this one and we'll each take a turn reading one. Isaiah 24 section heading says, Men will transgress the law and break the everlasting covenant - At the Second Coming they wiall be burned, the Earth will reel, and the sun will be ashamed - Then the Lord will reign in Zion and in Jerusalem. Let's go to Isaiah 33. And Heather, will you read that section heading for us, please.

Heather 10:42

Apostasy and wickedness will precede the Second Coming - The Lord will come with devouring fire - Zion and its stakes will be perfected. -The Lord is our Judge, Lawgiver, and King.

Tammy 10:55

And then let's turn to Isaiah 34. And Larrie, we please read that section heading.

Larrie 10:59

"The Second Coming shall be a day of vengeance and judgment - The indignation of the Lord shall be upon all nations - His sword shall fall upon the world."

Tammy 11:10

Okay, so here's my question to you. How can we teach these verses of scripture and these chapters in Isaiah without scarring? or scaring? Or is that the purpose? What are your thoughts?

Larrie 11:21

Well, I realized, unlike Heather, I, whenever I hear things like this, I just quickly go to the happy ending, to the part that's good. Because I, I am determined, I guess, determined from a young age that I was going to be part of the good guys. And so I just, I just kind of ignore them. But these really are scary. And how do we teach it? I think, partly, I think the Lord needs to have our hearts pierced so that we can choose. If we aren't aware of these things that will happen, we might get lazy.

Tammy 12:01

That's a great answer, I like that. Very good. Thank you, Larrie. What about you, Heather?

Heather 12:05

I don't remember any real focus in Seminary when we were studying Isaiah chapters on the positive. I just remember the really scary stuff, and maybe that was because it was easier to teach. And they knew that it would be entertaining to this kids. But I love how more of the positive needs to talk to be talked about. So this chapter 13, that we talk about with all the doom verses, it starts in such a positive way. Like verse 2:

Heather 12:32

13:2 "Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles." And then

Heather 12:38

3 "I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness."

Heather 12:49

And that, that's showing the Lord is there, He will always be there. And He will have the sanctified ones or those who choose to follow Him. And we will be a part of that Royal Army. And that's exciting. And that feels good to know, He's our commander.

Larrie 13:03

And we also need to remember that if you read that particular chapter of Isaiah in 2 Nephi, chapter 23, that it ends with, "I will be merciful unto my people, but the wicked shall perish." So, so there's a contrast there. And I think maybe Heather's Seminary teacher forgot to teach those two beginning and end, so that there was some hope, that choose the right. And guess what? You don't have to endure this.

Tammy 13:35

Well I just love the direction you both took with this idea of hope. And I'm so grateful, Heather, that you brought up that verse, in verse 2 and 3 where He says, "even my sanctified ones", because you're right. Highlight "sanctified ones"; it means His saints, His covenant people. And so because you mentioned that, I'm so excited because in the next segment, we're going to be discussing what the sanctified ones - what the saints will be doing while Babylon is falling, and then after.

Segment 2 14:00

......

Tammy 14:02

So Heather, will you please start us out with this quote for segment two?

Heather 14:05

"In 2018, our Prophet said that the gathering is the most important thing taking place on Earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty."

Heather 14:20

Thank you. Those are amazing words, when we talk about the gathering. Let's go into Isaiah chapter 14, and we're going to read about this gathering and something very interesting and significant about it. We're going to start in Isaiah 14:1, and we're just going to mark some words in here. Larrie will you please read verse 1 for us.

Heather 14:39

14:1 "For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."

Tammy 14:51

Okay, thank you. Now, I hope by now those of you listening, whenever you hear 'Israel' or 'Jacob', I hope your ears are perking up and you're going, Oh, that's me. Because we've talked about it all year. So highlight that in there, highlight Jacob, Israel, and put 'me' or 'us' next to it. So the Lord will have mercy on us and will yet choose us and set them in their own land and the strangers - now highlight that word. This is such an interesting and significant word. In Hebrew, this is the word ger, G E R, and it translates as a sojourner or a newcomer. How much do we love that it's not stranger, you can see how different it would be if it said, "set them in their own land and the newcomer shall be joined with them." Now tell me why that word changes the meaning for you and your thoughts on the word stranger?

Heather 15:39

So that word stranger reminds me of something I read in Second Chronicles 30:25 and 26, when King Hezekiah calls for a great Passover celebration. And in in those verses - 25 and 26 - it says,

Heather 15:56

2 CHR:25 "And all the congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced.

Heather 15:56

26 "So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David, King of Israel there was not the like in Jerusalem."

Heather 16:16

I love this idea that all were invited to the Lord's Passover and rejoiced together.

Tammy 16:22

Oh, Heather, that is an awesome connection. I hope everyone writes next to verse one: 2 Chronicles 30:25-26. So powerful, all are welcome. And that's what we're learning from this word 'strangers'. In fact, if you look at the footnote, it will say "conversions, Israel, mission of". Like, this is part of the gathering, bringing anybody in who will, in that verse, be joined with them. And that word 'joined' in Hebrew is CHABAR, and it means 'to join together'. But more importantly, it's a permanent decision. Like they are joining together through a covenant. And so I just think this is so powerful, especially in light of what you shared, Heather. There will be rejoicing, this is going to be such a happy moment. I had to include this quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, because I want everyone to have it, I want you to be able to print it out, put it in your scriptures because I remember hearing it a ton as a seminary student. And then I found it as a seminary teacher. And we need to remember this. So here's the quote. And Larrie, will you read this for us.

Larrie 17:21

Joseph Fielding Smith said, "Some members of the church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the Earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium.

Larrie 18:03

"Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea. But there will be need for the preaching of the Gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away."

Larrie 18:18

In the course of the 1000 years, all man will either come into the church or kingdom of God, or they will die and pass away, is not a great quote. You know, as I was reading that I was thinking, I pray every day for our Prophet to live as long as he possibly can, because he has done more in pushing us forward together than any prophet I ever remember. And he just is so loving, and he just, he just knows how to do it. And, and we need that and it feels so good. I often tell people who join the church how grateful I am for them, because they keep the church living.

Tammy 19:00

I'm writing that down.

Larrie 19:04

We would, we would, literally, how boring would it be if we never had a new convert or a new testimony, a new stranger, if you will, or newcomer join the church? I love converts. And I can't imagine what the millennium will be like as we continue to gather.

Tammy 19:24

Alive. Oh, alive. Larrie, that's so fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. I wrote that right next to that verse. 'Converts/strangers: they keep the church living.' So cool. So let's go into verses 2 and 3, and highlight some words in here. We're going to continue on with this discussion.

Tammy 19:41

14:2 "And the people shall take them," {that means the members of the Church shall take them, the strangers} "and bring them to their place:". Highlight, "bring them to their place". The Joseph Smith translation says that this is actually, "and they shall return to their lands of promise."

Tammy 19:57

Then it says "the house of Israel": {remember, that's us} "shall possess them" {them is the strangers} "in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captive,s whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

Tammy 20:10

3 "And it shall come to pass it in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve."

Tammy 20:20

Okay. This is powerful stuff, because those verses right there, the promise that everybody will be able to have rest from sorrow, fear, and the hard bondage that they were to serve. I want to talk about this really quickly. In that meaning right there, what does hard bondage imply to you? And in the lives of members and strangers? What are we talking about?

Larrie 20:44

Are we talking about maybe the bondage of sin?

Tammy 20:48

Very good. I think you're right. I was wondering what you would think; that's what I think, yes,

Heather 20:54

I had another idea. So obviously, bondage of sin that will lead us to salvation, but simply bondage, or freedom from the weight and worries of the world, because those are constantly around us. And to be in bondage to those things is very overwhelming a lot of the time and to know that we will be free of that

Larrie 21:17

is wonderful.

Tammy 21:19

Thank you very much for both of you and your discussion. Because what we've learned is the sanctified will be gathering the sanctified will be gathering the strangers and taking them to their lands of promise. I mean, that's so cool that we get that opportunity. That's what the Prophet's telling us to do. That's why he's all about the gathering, why it is the most magnificent, wonderful thing that's taking place right now. And it is our job to find those "strangers", and to help remove that bondage from them and from their lives. I just think there's nothing more beautiful than that. I think it's awesome. And so what we're gonna do is in the next segment, we're going to talk about kind of a dark side to this Babylon, and what causes someone, any of us to be in bondage.

Segment 3 21:57

......

Tammy 21:59

Okay, so based on our discussion from segment 1 about Babylon, spiritually speaking, who's the proverbial king of Babylon?

Larrie 22:08

Well, that's pretty obvious, because he's really running rampant right now. And it is Satan. He is the king, and the wicked follow.

Tammy 22:17

Absolutely. It is Satan, 100% Thank you. Let's do this. This is so fascinating to me; you guys are gonna, this blew my mind when I learned this. I want you to go in to Isaiah chapter 14, and bracket off verses 4, all the way to verse 23. And I want you to write something to the side of it. These verses are called "the satirical song against the king of Babylon", or "satirical song against Satan". That's a good, right there, alliteration. SSS: satirical song against satan. How do we know it's a satirical song? Because I want to show you. So look at verse 4. It says, "And thou shalt take up this proverb", look down to the footnote 4a, it is "a satirical song", not necessarily a proverb. So this is a satirical song, and then it says, what it is "against the king of Babylon" Okay, it's a song. These are lyrics to a song.

Tammy 23:10

Now I asked Larrie for her knowledge. So I'm excited about this, because I know Larrie knows music. And I asked Larrie to look over these verses, and Heather, and I want us to discuss. Listen, if we were to write a song using these verses, how would you write it? What would you put emphasis on? What would a crescendo be or a forte or a pianissimo. Do you like how, and I love how I threw in all those words when I wrote this to you, like I know what I'm talking about. I put even a triplet. Is there a triplet in there, or an eighth note? I don't know. So hit it. Larrie, tell us what you found. I'd love to know, as a person who knows music, how would you write these verses into a song?

Larrie 23:48

I don't know why I would ever want to.

Tammy 23:51

You're totally right.

Larrie 23:53

But I have, I have, I have thought about the fact that any story good or bad can be made more with a song. We sing "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning", and it's very different from when somebody stands at the pulpit and just says the words. And the singing "Oh, How Lovely Was the Morning" and is very different to just read the words. There's feeling and there's something, there's something new and fresh about the whole idea. So I looked at this and decided that even horrible and sad events can become more powerful with music. And of course Isaiah's poetry is unsurpassed, so what I would do is, I would title the song, "Is This the Man?" Because, and then I would, and that's such a beautiful contrast, an awesome contrast between that and I thought of Handel's Messiah "Worthy is the Lamb". And that is such a powerful song.

Larrie 24:57

And "Is This the Man" would be a song of disbelief. How on earth were we all fooled like this? He's weak like we are. He's weakened all the nations. He's, he's just like us. But even we are buried in our family graves. It just, it is a satire and it's an, it's almost unbelievable that somebody who is so lowly could become the one who conquers so much and makes so much wickedness in the world.

Tammy 25:30

I thought it was interesting when I looked up the word satire, because it says 'the use of humor, irony, exaggeration or ridicule; to expose or criticize stupidity or vices'.

Larrie 25:41

And that's all there.

Tammy 25:43

It's all there. Isaiah did not mince his words when he spoke about Satan. He is doing, it is absolutely satirical. Isn't that interesting? Because you said, Isaiah's poetry surpasses none. And yet he took the time to write these 19 verses of poetry. It's the only satire I know of in all of Scripture.

Larrie 26:03

I love the little bit of satirical humor that is found in verse, Isaiah 14:10. "All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Satan has ended up in that hell and all of these other people are there as well. And they're wondering, You promised us all these things. You're here with us now? Where's our reward that you promised us? I don't understand. You're just like one of us.

Tammy 26:34

Oh, I like that Heather, great commentary on that verse. Good one. Keep going. Any other thoughts, Larrie?

Larrie 26:42

Well, there are some triplets in there, Tammy.

Tammy 26:44

Are you serious? (laughters) Hit it.

Tammy 26:48

Yeah, there are some triplets. Lucifer is a triplet and Babylon is a triplet. And 'like unto' is a triplet and so I just kind of fooled around and, and I would never even attempt to tell you what I came up with. But it was just, it really is, there are triplets. But as far as forte or double forte or crescendo. I mean, this is such an indictment of Satan, that I wouldn't even know where to contrast and, I mean, it's just pure evil. It just points his I wouldn't even know how to begin to put emphasis on certain verses except that I think if I were going to sing, "Who is This Man?" I would almost whisper it. Because it's incredible that he has deceived so many.

Tammy 27:47

Is that verse 16?

Tammy 27:49

Yes, thank you. Will you read verse 16 for us? This is the one you would have be pianissimo?

Larrie 27:54

16 "They that see thee shall narrowly look up,on thee and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" Unbelievable. Look where he is, and look what he did. And now there's a power so much greater than his yeah.

Tammy 28:15

K, that's really good. Well, in verse 16, "they that see thee shall narrowly look,". That word narrowly means to squint. Like, really? What? "Is This?" That's why, oh, my gosh, I like that. Is this the man? Larrie,

Larrie 28:31

So so I'm not going to compose anything, though, because I don't want him to have that much coverage.

Tammy 28:36

But what you came up with was phenomenal. And that idea of that. Listen, I threw in the word triplet, because your daughter and I were in a choir group together in high school. And I remember we were having to learn a song that had triplets in it. And all we remember our teacher saying, tri-pl-et, and we couldn't get it. It was the hardest thing for us to figure out tri-pl-et. But now, if she had known, if she just would have said, Just say, Lucifer, Babylon. I wouldn have been like oh, a triplet. Okay, I can do that. Oh, my gosh, that's powerful. I've never even thought that there were triplets in there. And you're right. I think it's interesting how you said, I wouldn't even want to compose something to give him that much power. But when you read these verses, and you consider them a song, there, you think of it in a different way. And you think, what verses would I have whispered, what would I have loud? It was a unique way for me to read these verses. So thank you for coming so well-prepared. Heather, do you have anything to add with these verses, anything you thought about the music?

Heather 28:41

Um, not particularly about the music, I guess. I love how it ends or close to the end, very, in a very positive way. In verse 24, it says, "The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand". It kind of reminded me of Pharaoh in the 10 commandments, "So let it be written, so let it be done." If the Lord says it, it's going to happen exactly the way He says it's going to happen, so we don't need to fear this terrible song that's been sung prior to that verse. It's okay, because in the end, good wins.

Tammy 30:20

Oh, Heather, I'm so grateful that you brought that up. Because I want everyone to bracket off verses 24-32. And let's just put what Heather said; I think what Heather said is better than what I had. Just put 'God wins'. I was gonna say 'God is in control'. But I love that 'God wins' because you read these really scary verses about Satan. But I love how the Lord and Isaiah isn't like, But we're not going to end there. Let's, I love how you brought this in, Heather: let's finish it on a 'high note'. God wins. And He absolutely does. And I love how these verses provide comfort in the knowledge that God will win because He truly will. And I think that is so powerful for us. So in the next segment, then we are going to learn about actually a different type of song that we really will sing.

Segment 4 31:01

.....

Tammy 31:05

One of the things that I love about the church is their focus on art and artists, especially now. In fact, at the Church History Museum in Salt Lake City, Utah there's an incredible art show going on, that has beautiful paintings and pictures. And I asked my guests to come prepared with their favorite Second Coming picture. And I'm so excited to see what you guys brought. So show us your pictures, and we will take a screenshot of all three of us holding up our pictures. So you guys can go to our show notes and look at our favorite Second Coming pictures. Awesome. Okay, tell me why you guys chose those pictures.

Heather 31:39

I don't know exactly what Christ looks like. None of us do. And so the older I get, the more I appreciate art that doesn't show the face necessarily, because we aren't clear on what exactly that will be. And so I moved towards when it comes to the second coming, I move more towards things that express the feeling that will exist when He comes again. And so that particular painting is entitled "The Messianic Kingdom of Peace" by John van't Hoff. And it's not one that I have on my wall or anything, but it's one that I found as I searched for pictures that expresses very well how I believe it will feel.

Tammy 32:20

it's beautiful. Again, everyone go to the show notes so you can see these pictures. Awesome. However, I like that you chose pictures to describe how we will feel. That's a great approach to the Second Coming picture. What about you, Larrie?

Larrie 32:31

Well, I'm kind of in the same vein. I like things that leaves room for me to decide what they mean. And pictures of Christ that leave room for me to visualize how I think He looks. And, some people envision the Second Coming as trumpets and loud praises, and I tend to dwell on how it will feel. And I envision a piece that will testify that it's all true. And my picture is very elusive. You can tell that the Savior's there and you can tell that everybody is bowed down. It's Kirk Richards' painting of "Every Knee Shall Bow". And when I look at that, it makes me weep for joy, because I think that's the way I want it to be. I just want silence and all of the noise of the world gone. And just confirmation that the thing I hoped and believed and knew is true.

Tammy 33:41

My goodness. You know I have that written in my scriptures quoted by your husband. I hope that, yeah, I have it in my scriptures that right before he passed away He said, and It makes me so emotional. He said, "I just hope it's true like I've always believed it would be."

Larrie 33:56

I know he said that to my daughter, Laurel.

Tammy 33:58

Yeah, yeah, I have that in my scripture. So you and him, you're the same.

Larrie 34:01

Wow, I had no idea.

Tammy 34:01

Yeah. I loved that you just shared that. Because I think a lot of us believe that. Like, I just hope it's true like we always thought it was. Oh, that's beautiful, Larrie. Thank you for sharing that. The picture that I chose is called "Christ with Women". And I love it because it's just the Savior, and then He's surrounded by all these angelic figures without faces, but they're female. Because just as a woman who was single till I was 35, women played such an important role in my life. They were my friends, my family, my, my everything for all those years. And I just,I love this idea of women just surrounded because I know Jesus loves women. And that's one thing I can't wait to discuss and study next year with the New Testament is He just did. And so that has a special place in my heart and I just, I've got all daughters and I, I just think it's awesome. So that's my picture. I just think He loves us women, for sure.

Tammy 34:50

So thank you for bringing those pictures. And the reason why I asked you to do that is because, let's turn to Isaiah chapter 25. Here's a song that will be sung when the Savior comes again. Bracket off verses 1-5. And to the outside of verses 1-5 write 'Psalm of praise and thanksgiving and deliverance'. This is a song of praise that will be sung when the Savior comes, lyrics to the song in conjunction - I'm going to give you a cross reference - in conjunction with Doctrine and Covenants section 84, verses 99-102. Larrie, you're shaking your head; why are you doing that?

Larrie 35:24

Because that's the song we teach that will be sung at the Second Coming. And I've always, I keep waiting for somebody to compose it.

Tammy 35:34

I'm the same way. I have a total testimony that - I will tell you this - I do have a testimony, and I will stand right now and bear it, that all people who sing in the ward choir will be the ones allowed to sing that song. I do. If you have put in the time in Ward choir, you will get that privilege of singing that song. (laughters) I mean, I've sung in ward choirs enough, so hopefully I'll have a standing place in there. But let's read some of these lyrics. So in Isaiah chapter 25, it's just verses 1-5. And as we do, for those of you listening, I want you to highlight what would be forte for you. What part of the song are you going to sing so loud or maybe really soft? And we'll start with you, Heather, and we'll each take a verse. We'll go Heather, Larrie, and then me. Okay, here we go. Heather, hit it, read verse one.

Heather 36:18

25:1 "O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things: thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.

Larrie 36:29

2 "For thou hast made af a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.

Tammy 36:40

3 "Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.

Heather 36:46

4 "For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.

Heather 36:46

5 "Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low."

Tammy 37:11

Perfect. Okay, what is your work? Is there anything specific that you would have be loud or soft, or any aspect of music to it?

Heather 37:18

For me, that hymn of praise starts strong; that verse 1 is forte.

Tammy 37:22

Ah, let me write that next to it. Heather, why tell me why.

Heather 37:28

The words; they're full of, it says right in the verse "wonderful things, thy councils of old are faithfulness and truth." Thou hast always been there. You are our faithful friend, Lord. And you have always spoken truth to us. We may have been surrounded by confusion and chaos, but you have always been faithful and truthful.

Tammy 37:50

Let me ask you, Heather, with that verse: What wonderful things has He done for you?

Heather 37:55

Oh, my goodness. He has, He has given me peace in great trials, especially these last couple of years. 2020 was a terrible year for a lot of people. And I was no exception. And about, during the summer, I started to, started to feel really dark. I didn't want to pray, I didn't want to read my scriptures. I wasn't a very nice person, you can ask my mom. I just wasn't a nice person. And in September, I started to exhibit some just weird physical symptoms. And that continued to progress and get worse, and finally on October 29, 2020, I was diagnosed with brain cancer. And the amazing thing to me was that, so they immediately put me in the hospital. And as I started to receive treatment and my tumor began to shrink, things just became so clear. And physically and spiritually, and I felt closer to my Heavenly Father than I ever had before. There were still a lot of ups and downs, but my spirit started to heal.

Heather 39:06

And then I remember one night in particular when I was just, it was only like about 10 days into the diagnosis. I was in the hospital and I was starting to feel really discouraged again. And I just kept asking Him if He was really there. And the words that came to my mind were from Alma, the younger in chapters 36. He had been wracked by the pains and harrowed up by the memory of his sins, and I felt like I had been wracked by these physical pains and doubts about my testimony were starting to creep back in. And Alma says in Alma 36:18-21, Alma remembered the words of his father concerning the coming of Jesus Christ.

Heather 39:48

18 "Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O, Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me.

Heather 39:55

19 "And now,......when I thought this I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

Heather 40:02

20 "And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

Heather 40:10

21 "Yea, I say unto you,......that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy."

Heather 40:23

I knew at that moment that He perfectly understood that those last couple of months that it felt so dark, He was right there with me. And I just kept repeating over and over and over again, You are really there. And that witness has stayed with me since then. I have never felt it as strongly as I felt that that night in my hospital bed.

Tammy 40:43

Oh, Heather, thank you for sharing your witness of that. As you shared it I definitely, like you could feel the truthfulness of your words. And the spirit confirmed like all of that is true. And no doubt you will be singing at the top of your lungs Oh, Lord, thou art my God. I will extol thee, I will praise thy name, for that has done wonderful things." You're gonna be in that choir

Heather 41:06

Will be me, front row.

Tammy 41:08

It will be you. Beautifully spoken. Thank you, Heather. Larrie, is there a line you underlined that you would sing in a certain way?

Larrie 41:16

I love verse 4 of chapter 25. I just because all of these things are true. He has been a strength to me. He has been straight to me in my poorness, my weakness. He's been a strength to me and my neediness. He's been a refuge from the storms and the shadow from the heat. And I would reverently sing that verse.

Tammy 41:45

I put the same thing, I put 'softly' next to that. I like how you said reverently. In fact, I imagine the song starting out pretty unison with with just basic music. But for some reason in my mind, verse 4, in come the violins and the flutes like I think it's going to be so melodic. Is that even a word? I don't know. But I think there will be so much to that verse, but it will be reverently and just sums up our experience with Him. So, awesome. Thank you very much, Larrie. So let's do this. We have this song that we're going to sing. But we have to talk about then, I think what will happen after the song because there will come a feast of all feasts. Now listen, the Christensens and the Uzelacs, we love a good feast. And I gotta be honest, I've never attended a better feast than the New Year's Eve feast at the Christensen home. Am I right?

Heather 42:39

Mexican food all the way!

Tammy 42:40

Some of the best chili rellenos that I've ever had in my life. It's a beautiful feast. And I'm thrilled to talk about this feast that will happen after Christ comes, because the wording is just beautifully written by Isaiah, and it's so important for us to understand. So let's go into Isaiah chapter 25 still, and we're going to look at verses 6-9 and I want us to mark a couple of words in these verses. So, let's talk about this feast. Here we go. And I'll go through these words. And then again, if you guys have anything to add, please do.

Tammy 43:08

25:6 "And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things". Okay, mountain, what you want to know is the word 'mountain' in that verse. And in this mountain, it means Zion or the New Jerusalem. That's what we're talking about. "And in this mountain, (or in Zion, in New Jerusalem), the Lord of hosts make unto the people a feast of fat things." That is a symbol of the restored gospel or covenants, like just fat and meaty and awesome, right? We're not stripping the fat off of this at all. A feast of fat things, a people, a gospel of Jesus Christ, our covenants. Then he says, "a feast of wine on the lees". Now, this is interesting, because 'wine on the lees' at Old Testament time is the very best wine. It has remained undisturbed and completely refined. So some people I remember one time learning it, was like the worst or the dregs. No; wine on the lees is the best wine you could possibly drink.

Tammy 44:01

Then he says, "of fat things full of marrow". I mean, it's not only the best, it's the most rich in flavor and nourishment. I mean, think about how the covenants do that for us, just rich in flavor, rich in nourishment. And then it says "of wine on the lees well-refined", which we've already read, and then 7: "And will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering over all the people and the veil". Hhlight the word veil. The veil means darkness there, and all the darkness that is spread over all the nation will be removed, no more darkness We're gonna have this beautiful feast and meal. You can cross reference these verses to the feast that's spoken of in Revelation chapter 19. It's also talked about in Matthew 22:2-14, as well as Doctrine and Covenants, section 58:9-11. These are other places where this feast is talked about. But then I love the dessert. It might be the best dessert of any feast we'll ever attend and the desert is found in verses 8 and 9. Heather, will you please read these verses for us

Heather 45:04

25:8 "He will swallow up death in victory; and the LORD GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Heather 45:18

9 "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation."

Tammy 45:30

Tell me in verse 8, why is that the best dessert? What's the dessert we get?

Larrie 45:36

Wiping away all the tears from our faces? Any sadness that we've experienced in our lives will be gone, wiped away by him.

Tammy 45:45

Yeah, yeah. I want you think through your life, what are tears that you would love to have wiped away? Or what tears have been wiped away? Some of us have 'em wiped, and some of us are waiting. Can you tell us a little bit about that for either one of you?

Larrie 45:57

I think about tears lately as good things. Tell me why. Even though they're sad, they teach me. I think of the tears that I shed the day of Heather's brain cancer diagnosis. I, they were, they were pretty significant tears. And I think of all the tears I've shed over my husband's death, over a child loses their way or a grandchild. And I just think they are, they are what we came to do. We came to shed tears, and learn from those tears the difference between good and evil and the difference between good and, I mean, just the difference. So the opposition creates in us a learning experience that is unequaled. And the tears are evidence that we face the opposition.

Tammy 46:54

Is there anything significant that comes to mind that you have learned from your tears, a poignant lesson or anything you take-way with your tears?

Larrie 47:02

Yeah, they need to be shed. They need to happen. And there was a time in my life when I couldn't, I was in a deep emotional breakdown type thing. And I couldn't cry. And that was the most empty feeling I've ever had. And I'll never forget that feeling. Because not being able to cry means you don't have feelings, which means nothing matters. And so then my take-away from tears is that we need to have them. And they need to, we need to almost rejoice in them because they teach us how to go forward.

Heather 47:41

And sometimes we need to shed them. And sometimes we need to share them if we feel like that's something that we can share and allow others to mourn with us and comfort us when we need that comfort.

Larrie 47:53

Heather, tell me about your tears.

Larrie 47:55

A lot of my tears have a lot to do with family, family members who struggle and wanting them to have happier lives, that seeing that their choices are taking them into different directions. And sometimes it's exhausting to worry about that. I, you know, pleading in my prayers, crying on my pillow, whatever it might be. And it makes me think of President Nelson's quote from October 2016 conference, "Joy and Spiritual Survival. When the focus of our lives is on God's plan of salvation, and Jesus Christ and His gospel, we can feel joy regardless of what is happening or not happening in our lives. Joy comes from and because of him. He is our source of joy." And that could not be more true. I don't know how to put it any more plainly, He is our joy.

Tammy 48:51

Amen. Amen to what both of you said. And for me, when I think about my tears, they flow into verse 9 when it says, "And it shall be said in that day, lo, this is our God; we have waited for him. He will save us: this is our Lord, we have waited for him." I love the word waited in this context. I think for so many of us we are in that waiting phase. Much of our life is about waiting. And I appreciate what Robert D Hales had to say about this word. I want us to read this quote. Larrie, we you please read this quote by Elder Robert D hills.

Larrie 49:24

"In the scriptures word 'wait ' means to hope, to anticipate, and to trust. To hope and trust in the Lord requires faith, patience, humility, meekness, longsuffering, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end."

Tammy 49:41

Fantastic. So keep on waiting, everybody. Just keep on waiting. And the Lord's going to come and it's going to be phenomenal and in fact, it's going to be marvelous. And in the next segment, we are going to learn about something marvelous that He has already done for us.

Segment 4 49:58

.....

Tammy 49:58

Let's turn to Isaiah chapter 29. And we're going to read just verses 4, and then verse 14. And here's what I want you to do. As we read verse 4 and 14, help me think of what we could write on the top of our page that this chapter is going to be about. Okay, so we're just gonna read two verses, and I want you to help me think what can we write at the top of the page that this chapter is probably about. Here we go, verse 4. Heather, will you please read verse 4. And then Larrie, verse 14,

Heather 50:25

29:4 "And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Larrie 50:40

14 "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

Tammy 50:55

Okay, what could we label chapter 29 as?

Heather 50:59

Coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Tammy 51:00

Right on, I'm doing that. So at the top of your page, put that: 'coming forth of the Book of Mormon', I'm writing that right now. Good one, Heather. That's what chapter 29 is about. In fact, this is where we get the verses of Scripture, especially verses 11, 12 and 13, where it says, 'I cannot read a sealed book.' I mean, we've heard those before. And this is where it is - the prophecy from Isaiah about the Book of Mormon. It's so phenomenal. Now, I asked Larrie to share a little bit about Elder Cook's talk from Education Week, because she listened to it. And she pointed this out to me. And I think it's pretty cool. And she has a neat story that goes along with it. So Larrie, tell us a little bit about what you learned about the Book of Mormon.

Larrie 51:40

Well, I was listening kind of casually to his talk, because I was doing other things. And when he said this one sentence, I immediately turned the talk off, so that I can remember what he said, and went and wrote it down. He said, "The Book of Mormon provides immunity for our day." I don't remember what he was, why he was talking about immunity because I haven't, I haven't gone back and listened again. But when he said the Book of Mormon provides immunity, I was reminded of something that I've always said, but I say it more strongly now than ever before. This voice out of the dust cannot be neglected by us. If we're studying another scripture, such as we are this year, the Old Testament, we need to put our heart and soul into that, but we can't neglect daily reading of this voice out of the dust. Because it is a miracle that we have that and it did come from the dust, it did come from the earth, and it will provide immunity for our day.

Larrie 52:49

Yesterday I had lunch with a beautiful woman of faith. She's my age, and she's been a member of the church since she was 30. And I was reminded again about how the voice out of the desk has ushered in all of the restoration. I asked her what made her want to listen to this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, what made her want to come? And she mentioned some things such as: God was somewhere but she didn't know where or who He was. And Jesus was a nice man, but He wasn't a god. And she mentioned that she had never had to deal with the Trinity because they didn't teach that in her faith. And she just talked about how refreshing it was to learn who God was, that He's our father, and to learn that Jesus Christ is our Savior. And then of course, all of the other things in this marvelous work and a wonder that came to pass because of that book. But I just, the Book of Mormon provides immunity. And if we want to be immune from the wickedness of today, we need to pick that book that came out of the dust up every day and search it.

Tammy 53:54

Wow. Perfectly said, Larrie, I completely agree with you. In fact, I love how you called it a marvelous work and a wonder. We have to go to verse 14, because it says that. I want to show you something kind of cool in Hebrew. This really struck me. In verse 14 it says, "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder". Highlight "marvelous work and a wonder." It's not translated that way in Hebrew. In Hebrew, it actually says that "I will proceed to do - instead of a work in a wonder - it says, a wonder of wonders". Now in Hebrew, when you have these two words, it's a superlative. It means the most wonderous, the most wonderful of things will I do. That's what the Book of Mormon is, it's the most wonderful. And so I love that that changes it instead of a marvelous work and a wonder, - a Wonder of Wonders, the most wonderful thing. And that's what the Book of Mormon can be for every one of us and I'm grateful you just challenged us to make the Book of Mormon a part of our everyday reading.

Tammy 54:53

And for me, it's something as simple as, right before my kids get up in the morning. And listen, I'm still in bed. I reach over, I grab my phone, I click on the Scripture app, I click on Book of Mormon, and I read a few verses until they come in and ask me for something. So it's not a ton, it's just a few verses right before I get my feet on the floor. That's how it looks like for me, it's gonna look different for everyone. But I agree. I think a verse or two in the Book of Mormon, it really is an immunity. And I'm grateful that you shared that from Elder Cook, because I want us to turn the page and look what it keeps us immune from. I thought this was kind of cool. We're going to look at verses 18 and 19. And 18 and 19 is what it gives us immunity from in our day. And so Heather, we you please read both both of these verses for us. And as Heather reads them, mark what it's going to keep us immune from.

Heather 55:41

25:18 "And In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Heather 55:49

19 "The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel."

Tammy 55:56

What will it keep us from?

Heather 55:58

Spiritual darkness is going to be removed, we're going to be able to see so clearly.

Tammy 56:03

Makes us think how cool; it keeps us from being deaf, from blind. I like he says spiritual darkness removed. I'm putting that in my scriptures. What else did you think, Larrie?

Larrie 56:12

Well, it says we will increase in joy if we're meek. There's nothing more awesome than that. "And the poor in spirit, perhaps among men shall rejoice". There's a lot of hope there.

Tammy 56:24

Yeah. Keeps us immune from sorrow. Wow, that's powerful. That is good stuff. I think that's really important.

Larrie 56:31

There was a time in my life when somebody encouraged me to read the Book of Mormon verse by verse and to journal something every time I read a verse before I went on to the next verse. And it was such an interesting journey. And it taught me so many things. But if I could read just one short excerpt from that journal, it really shows the power of reading the Book of Mormon.

Tammy 56:55

Please do.

Larrie 56:56

This was in 2002, Aatually. "Reading the Book of Mormon each day is like having angels constantly saying to me, Look!" So I, the reference is First Nephi 14:18. And it's one of many places in Nephi's vision where the Lord says, Look! And so I said, "It is like having angels constantly saying to me, Look. I feel great comfort as I read, even when I read chapters like Mormon 6 and 7, which I read this morning, even though the scene is one of horrible carnage, Mormon is saying, Look. If you, when you read and ponder this record, will turn your heart to the Savior and Redeemer of the world. Repent and be baptized by water and fire, then can ye have great hope and stand guiltless at the last day. Guiltless because of the great atoning sacrifice for your sins. So reading the Book of Mormon, to me has become not only a book of hope, but it's taught to me by the angels of God." And I love that thought that I had because somebody told me to focus on one verse.

Tammy 58:06

Oh, my gosh, that is so cool. Larrie. You just taught us the importance of what one verse can do. In my scripts, I wrote in big letters, Look. Wow, that is what the Book of Mormon can do for us. It can help us see, I'm so grateful you shared that experience. Thank you so much. And Heather, you did an excellent job of showing us the profound effect that the Book of Mormon scriptures had on your life when you were in that dark place. And I'm so grateful you shared that. What else would you like to say about the Book of Mormon?

Heather 58:35

Love the book. I'm like, I agree with my mom and you, Tammy, that that book needs to be picked up every day, even if it's just a verse before the day gets crazy.

Tammy 58:45

Yeah, absolutely. So, challenge is out there, try to read a verse, just one verse and look, look for something. So thank you, both of you for sharing that. Okay, it's our last segment. So in the last segment, we are going to talk about another sign of the Second Coming. And this one is Rosie.

Segment 6 59:02

.....

Tammy 59:03

Okay, I asked both of you to come prepared to discuss Isaiah chapter 35. And the first thing I want to know and for you to describe to our listeners is, you both live in Missouri. So tell everybody what it's like in Missouri, as far as weather and landscape and all of that, because we got listeners all over the world.

Heather 59:20

I love the mountains of Utah, I really do. And I love always knowing which direction I'm facing because I can look at the mountains. I can find any address without getting lost. But there's nothing better than coming home to Missouri and I always know that I'm close, whether you're flying or driving. And the flat farmlands of Kansas and Nebraska give way to the beautiful rolling green hills of Missouri. And that's Zion.

Tammy 59:44

Oh, it's just the rolling green hills for sure. How would you describe it Larr?ie

Larrie 59:49

Well, it really has become my Zion. I love living where everything is lush and green and beautiful and full and everything. And I remember the first, but I grew up in Utah. So that was my home, that was, I lived under the Mount Olympus. I looked up at the mountains every day. I I love being there. But I had some friends when we lived in Kentucky that decided they'd go out west and see what Salt Lake was all about. And I was so excited for them to come home and tell me how much they loved it. And the first thing out of their mouths was, Larrie, it's a desert. And I, that was the first time - I was in my 30s or 40s - and that was the first time I had thought that Salt Lake was a desert. And truly it is. But because of my experience and all the things that happened there, it wasn't a desert to me. But now It is and the scenery is lush and beautiful.

Tammy 1:00:48

It is so green. I mean just so beautiful. And let's be clear, very humid. Oh, my humid summers growing up, never forget those. I didn't know I could sweat in places I didn't know you could sweat. It's so hot there. But yes, very, very green. Now we have to read this fun quote from William Clayton. He's describing, because he came from this lush green beauty. And this is what he had to say about Salt Lake when they got here. I'll read this, because William Clayton's my great, great, great, great, great-grandfather, so kind of cool. Okay, here we go.

Tammy 1:01:19

"The intervening Valley appears to be well-supplied with streams, creeks and lakes. Some of the latter are evidently salt. There is about little timber in sight anywhere, and that is mostly on the banks of the creeks and streams of water, which is about the only objection which can be raised in my estimation, to this being one of the most beautiful valleys and pleasant places for a home for the saints which can be found. The land looks dry and lacks rain, but the numerous creeks and springs must necessarily tend to moisten it much." I mean, it was beautiful, but boy, it was dry and it lacked rain, for sure. We are a desert, we are a desert. So I want you to have this imagery of a desert in your mind as we read Isaiah 35:1-2. It is a prophecy of what will happen before the Savior comes. And I want to read it, these two verses. So Larrie, can you read these for us please.

Larrie 1:02:07

35:1 "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; nd the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

Larrie 1:02:14

2 "It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God."

Tammy 1:02:30

Now tell me, why is Isaiah using this type of imagery? And what is he trying to teach us in these words?

Heather 1:02:37

Well, if you're talking specifically about the pioneers, and who knows if that's what he was, well, that must have been what he was seeing. The pioneers who arrived in Utah, they turned that dry, solitary wilderness into an abundant blossoming home. And the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ does the same thing for solitary people living all over the world, gathering wandering people all over the world with this life-giving truth of eternal salvation so their lives can blossom as a rose in the desert. Perfectly said, Larry, what

Tammy 1:03:12

Perfectly said. Larrie, what do you have? Any insights for those two verses?

Larrie 1:03:16

Well, I agree with that. I just, I'm so caught up in verse 7 about the parched ground and the thirsty land and all of those things. And it's so symbolic. I mean, my parched ground receives much-needed rain every time I repent. Anytime I make any effort to do anything right or choose to spend more time doing good than wallowing in my troubles. I have realized that growing up there in that parched ground was so good for my soul, because it's where I gained the testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith. It's where I was baptized. It's where I received my patriarchal blessing. It's all of those things growing up in that area. That's what blossomed is me, because it really is a desert.

Tammy 1:04:05

We are little deserts, aren't we?

Larrie 1:04:07

Yeah. But it's, I'm certain because Isaiah always speaks on many levels, that he is referring to what happens to us when we choose to receive the light.

Tammy 1:04:21

I absolutely agree with both of you. Because at first glance and reading this verse 1 and 2, describe the restoration and what it did for the world at large. But specifically, if we go into the word 'wilderness,' which I love, and we've had a guest on that's a therapist, her name is Aliah Hall. She gave one of the best lessons a year ago where she talked about how the word wilderness is really how we should be describing faith crisises. When people have a situation where they're just unsure, that they're really just in their wilderness. It's not a faith crisis. And she said that there are over 400 references to 'wilderness' in Scripture, people either going in or coming out. In fact, the Savior was in the wilderness. That's where He was tempted, and He came out of that thriving.

Tammy 1:05:01

So it's beautiful how this word right here, the wilderness, it's our wilderness and the solitary place where you feel so alone, maybe abandoned. Larrie, you shared an experience where you were going through that early, feeling so depressed, without feeling. I would imagine you'd use the word solitary to describe that. Was that your wilderness?

Tammy 1:04:25

Very much; terrible wilderness. Yeah.

Tammy 1:05:06

And same with you, Heather, right? Would you describe that as solitary and wilderness?

Tammy 1:05:25

Definitely

Tammy 1:05:26

Ah, we all have those. And yet the Lord is saying that we will blossom as a rose through the gospel of Jesus Christ. So I asked my guests to do this in preparation for this episode. What verses in chapter 35 would help someone who's in their wilderness? or know someone in a wilderness? What are, what are some good strong supporting verses in chapter 35?

Heather 1:05:49

I love verse 8.

Heather 1:05:51

Read that .a

Heather 1:05:51

35:8 "And an highway shall be there, and a way and it shall be called The way of holiness;"

Heather 1:05:57

It reminded me, my husband and I are temple workers. And we have about a 90-minute drive to St. Louis. And as we're getting close, there's these hills; the highway just become hills up and down, and up and down. And I look forward to that last hill, and I can see the temple through the trees, that place of holiness that I am going to as I follow that highway. I am in the Lord's house when I reach the end of that highway.

Tammy 1:06:18

Oh, excellent description of that verse. Thank you. That was excellent. What about you, Larrie?

Tammy 1:06:23

I would say to anybody who is troubled, or in their wilderness, as Isaiah did say to them that are of a fearful heart: "Be strong, fear not: behold, your God". And then I'm skipping down to the very last part, "Hed will come and save you." Behold, your God will come and save you.

Tammy 1:06:45

He really will. Wow. Beautiful. Let's just end this whole discussion about our wilderness with this quote from Elder M. Russell Ballard. In October 2014 he said this. So for anyone listening who's in a wilderness or know someone, if you're feeling solitary or fearful, please remember this beautiful quote from our apostle Elder M. Russell Ballard. And Heather, will you this for us, please.

Larrie 1:07:08

"Stay in the boat and hold on. The topic is individual apostasy and warns us about it for ourselves, he gives one way to avoid it. Here is how: we need to experience a continuing conversion by increasing our faith in Jesus Christ, and our faithfulness to His gospel throughout our lives, not just once but regularly. Alma asked, "And now, behold, I say unto my brethren and sisters, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can you feel so now?"

Tammy 1:07:41

Thank you. And so that's our, that is our challenge, in addition to reading the Book of Mormon is just to stay in the boat and hold on. And I love how he talks about a continuing conversion. The last year or two, I've had a lot of time to reflect and think about things. And there was a period of time where I was like, I don't know, I just kind of questioned some things. And I thought, Am I, I know it sounds silly, but it was real for me. I thought, Am I going to stay? Like, there are so many reasons not to stay, there are reasons to stay. But I just had been thinking in my own mind about staying and my conversion.

Tammy 1:08:13

And I had just recently been called to the Primary. And of course, everyone knows if you want a testimony, serve in the Primary. And the timing was perfect, and I had only been there a couple of weeks, and we were learning a song. And I can't even remember the lyrics for the song. But there is a part right before the chorus that I heard wrong. Because the word is "I will say", and then we sing this chorus. But I thought it said "I will stay". And I'm singing at the top of my lungs, "I will stay". And from my head to my toes, I started sobbing. Like the kids were like, Sister Hall, why are you being a weirdo? That, at that moment, I'm like, I will stay. I am in. I am all in. I am reconverted and I think that is healthy, continual reconvergence. We need that so we can be reminded of why we're here and what we're doing.

Tammy 1:09:03

And we're going to have wildernesses and they will blossom as a rose. Just stay in the boat and hold on. And if you do, the Lord will show you His goodness. He will come and save you, as Larrie read to us. And we have all borne witness to that today.

Tammy 1:09:18

And I just, I'm so grateful for a loving God and a loving Savior, who do that for us time and time again. And They'll never get tired of it until They come again. And then after, They're still going to be doing it. Wow, that was such a great discussion. Thank you. Okay, so just take a minute, gather your thoughts, and what is your takeaway from today?

Heather 1:09:37

I love what my mom had to say back in segment 2, and we were talking about strangers. She said, "I love converts - they keep the church living." And it goes right along with what you're saying, Tammy, just stay in the boat. I need people around me to strengthen me to,you know, give me that life preserver. Whatever it is. And many times it's those people who are so new to the Gospel who just love with all their heart and they're so excited about it. And I love, I love concerts, they keep the church living.

Heather 1:10:06

And I just wrote two things with the exclamation points after them. I don't remember who said them, but "God wins, and wonder of wonders. I'm an eternal optimist."

Tammy 1:10:21

Great takeaways. Those are mine. "God wins", when Heather said that. God wins. I wrote that and I love that. And then same with Larrie's "converts keep the church living." That was so profound, both of you. T

Heather 1:10:33

Thank you. Thank you, you were awesome, too, Tammy. Thank you for the opportunity.

Larrie 1:10:35

Tammy, thank you for arranging a discussion that has changed me. Thank you.

Tammy 1:10:38

Oh, I just love you both so much. So, tell your families I love them. Love you so much.

Larrie 1:10:48

Love you.

Tammy 1:10:49

K, bye.

Larrie 1:10:50

Bye.

Tammy 1:10:52

Well, we would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook, or follow us on Instagram, you should. It is a great place to ask questions as you study and I try to answer anything I can during the week. And every week at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we post a call asking for your big takeaway. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and let us know what you've learned. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we're going to have the links to all the references we used today, as well as a complete transcript of this entire discussion. So go check it out.

Tammy 1:11:26

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our incredible study group participants were Larrie Christensen and Heather James, and you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week.

Tammy 1:11:53

And please remember you sweet people in the wilderness, You are God's favorite.

Tammy 1:11:59

Sister, Larrie, we, I just called you Sister Christensen. I fell like I'm in Seminary again.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai