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32: "Stand Ye in Holy Places" (Doctrine and Covenants 85–87)

Mon Aug 02 16:59:54 EDT 2021
Episode 32

The parable of the wheat and the tares is pretty well known, and odds are you've sat through multiple lessons and talks that expound on it. But let's be real here while learning about this subject have you ever wondered whether you are a wheat or a tare? As we study this week's lesson in Doctrine and Covenants 85–87, we'll dig into the many applications of this parable that you might not have thought of before and what it has to do with members of the Church today.

Find full episodes of the Sunday on Monday study group here. Start your free trial of Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ here.

Segment 1

Background for Section 85:  

"Joseph received letters from Church leaders in Missouri (Zion), which caused him to reflect upon the situation of the Saints there. On 27 November 1832, Joseph wrote to William W. Phelps concerning several things which were "lying with great weight upon [his] mind."2 Although the original of Joseph's letter to Phelps has not been preserved, the file copy made by Joseph's scribe, Frederick G. Williams, is in the possession of the Church, and the full text has been published several times.

"Brother Phelps received Joseph's letter in December 1832 and promptly published portions of it in the January 1833 issue of The Evening and the Morning Star. The full text of the letter, except a postscript, was also published at Nauvoo in the Times and Seasons for 15 October 1844.3 In 1876 Orson Pratt was directed by President Brigham Young to include portions of the Phelps letter, roughly equivalent to what had appeared in The Evening and the Morning Star in 1833, as section 85 in the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 85 did not appear in editions of the Doctrine and Covenants before 1876, but its inclusion as a divine revelation is clearly justified by the Prophet's language in verses 5–6 ("saith the Lord of Hosts," "thus saith the still small voice") and by his declaration in verse 10 that "these things I say not of myself."

"Although the Prophet's letter was addressed to W. W. Phelps, the portions of it that make up Doctrine and Covenants 85 consist of instructions originally directed to John Whitmer, the Church historian, or "the Lord's clerk" (v. 1), who was then living in Missouri" (Stephen E. Robinson, H. Dean Garrett, A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants, Vol. 3, "Doctrine and Covenants 85, Deseret Book).

The Lord's instructions to John Whitmer, "The Lord's Clerk": Doctrine and Covenants 85:1-2

It is the duty of the Lord’s clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a ahistory, and a general church brecord of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who cconsecrate properties, and receive dinheritances legally from the bishop;

And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the aapostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances.

Segment 2:

Book of the Law of God:

"Book of the Law of God" referenced in Doctrine and Covenants 85: 5, 7, and 11, as well as verse 9, where it is called the "Book of Remembrance"

Instructions on what to record in the book: Doctrine and Covenants 85:3-5 and 8-12. "Genealogy" in verse 4 means Church membership records.

Cross reference: Alma 5:58

58 For the names of the righteous shall be written in the abook of life, and unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled.

Segment 3

Title for Section 85: "One Mighty and Strong"

How the Holy Ghost communicates to us: Doctrine and Covenants 85:6

Yea, thus saith the astill small voice, which whispereth through and bpierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:

Addiction Recovery Program manual: "A Guide to Addiction Recovery and Healing"

The Lord is "Mighty and Strong": Doctrine and Covenants 85:7

And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in aorder the house of God, and to arrange by blot the cinheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

Segment 4

Title for Section 86:"Wheat and Tares, Lawful Heirs of the Priesthood"

Background for Section 86:

"Doctrine and Covenants 86 appeared as the fifth section in the first publication of the Doctrine and Covenants. It was labeled as a revelation on priesthood and immediately followed what are now known as sections 107 and 84, which are also revelations on the priesthood. Though it is not generally thought of as an important revelation on priesthood in our day, it was considered to be such in the lifetime of the Prophet Joseph Smith. It affirms that the Apostasy took place after the death of the meridian Twelve and that the restoration of the gospel centered in restoring the priesthood to the descendants of Abraham" (Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig J. Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration: A Commentary on the Doctrine & Covenants & Other Modern Revelations, Doctrine and Covenants 86)

"Joseph Smith was reviewing and editing the inspired revision of the Bible (the Joseph Smith Translation) when he received this revelation. The revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 86 expands on the parable as it is recorded in Matthew 13:24–30. For example, in Doctrine and Covenants 86 we learn that the sowers in the parable represent the Savior’s Apostles (see verse 2) and that the tares “choke the wheat and drive the church into the wilderness” (verse 3). We also learn that “in the last days,” new blades of wheat will begin “springing up” (verse 4). The sowing of the tares can represent the Apostasy, and the sprouting of new wheat can represent the Restoration" (Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual, " Lesson 89: Doctrine and Covenants 85-86)

The parable of the wheat and tares: Matthew Chapter 13

Quote: "The tares here mentioned are typically viewed as the darnel weed, which is a species of bearded rye grass. When the two species of plants are young, they look very much like wheat. And as the darnel weed grows, its roots typically intertwine with the roots of the wheat. Thus, it is difficult to separate the two while they are growing without damaging the wheat. If darnel is harvested with the wheat and mixed into bread, it will bring a bitter taste; it causes dizziness and can act as a violent emetic. The darnel must therefore be separated from the wheat at harvest time" (Don Parry, Jay A Parry, Understanding the Parables of Jesus Christ, Deseret Book 2006.)

The tares cannot be harvested without destroying the wheat: Doctrine and Covenants 86:6 

But the Lord saith unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the wheat also.

Joseph's revision focuses on the gathering, rather than the burning: Doctrine and Covenants 86:7

Therefore, let the wheat and the atares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe; then ye shall first gather out the wheat from among the tares, and after the gathering of the wheat, behold and lo, the tares are bound in bundles, and the field remaineth to be bburned.

Segment 5

Title for Section 87: "Prophecy on Wars"

Background for Section 87

"Joseph Smith had learned about a political conflict between the state of South Carolina and the federal government of the United States over tariffs. (A tariff is a tax on imports.) Because residents of South Carolina relied more on imported manufactured products than did people in the northern states, they felt that federal tariffs were unfair and that they had been purposely levied at the expense of the South. Government leaders in South Carolina adopted an ordinance invalidating, or nullifying, the federal laws, and many South Carolinians began to prepare for military action against the federal government. The president of the United States asserted that he would maintain the laws of the United States by force. In December 1832, newspapers throughout the United States were reporting on this conflict. It was at this time that Joseph Smith received the revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 87 prophesying that “wars … will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina” (D&C 87:1). In early 1833, not long after this prophecy was given, the United States government peacefully settled the issue with the state of South Carolina. Some may have believed the crisis had passed, but it had been only temporarily halted and South Carolina would still rebel." (Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual, Lesson 90 Section 87)

Joseph's Prophecy: Doctrine and Covenants 87:1

Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the awars that will bshortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of cSouth Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

Reference to the Civil War: Doctrine and Covenants 87:4

And it shall come to pass, after many days, aslaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

Quote: "In 1861, Southern warships began firing on United States federal soldiers who were stationed at Fort Sumter, in Charleston Harbor, South Carolina. Other Southern states joined South Carolina in a civil war against the northern states. In time, the Southern states called on Great Britain for aid. Additionally, many who had been slaves in the South joined the army of the North and fought against their former masters. The American Civil War lasted until 1865 and resulted in the death of approximately 620,000 soldiers (some historians estimate as many as 750,000)(Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual, Lesson 90 Section 87).

Cross reference: Doctrine and Covenants 130:12-13

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a avoice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.

Segment 6

Warnings for our day: Doctrine and Covenants 87:6-8

And thus, with the asword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall bmourn; and with cfamine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and dchastening ehand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full fend of all gnations;

That the cry of the saints, and of the ablood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of bSabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

Lord of Sabaoth: Sabaoth in Hebrew means "Armies"

How we can be safe in the last days: Doctrine and Covenants 87:8

Wherefore, astand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh bquickly, saith the Lord. Amen.


Tammy 0:00

How are stories told in your family? Do you have a written family history? I don't know, maybe one of those old Book of Remembrance books from the 1970s? Maybe your family history is stories that have been retold or possibly exaggerated, based loosely on a true story. Do you personally have family history like one that you are writing? Or is it something you keep saying, "I'm going to do it one day, maybe after I retire and have more time"? Well, Doctrine and Covenants Sections 85 through 87 are all about history in one way or another. And we're going to talk about the role that history plays in all of our lives.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the "Come, Follow Me" lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Okay, guys, if you're new to our group, I just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description. And it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study, just like all my friends in Lyman Washington. Hi, friends that are listening. And I miss you. It was good to see you a few weeks ago.

Now my favorite thing about the study group is that each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different. And I am so excited to introduce you to Tamu Smith. So hi, Tamu.

Tamu 1:15

Good morning.

Tammy 1:16

Good morning, and we'll explain that in a minute. And then we have a new friend Nicole from Australia. Hi, Nicole.

Nicole 1:23


Tammy 1:24

Now how do you say your last name, exactly? Because I think I've been butchering it.

Nicole 1:27

Oh, it's Lologa.

Tammy 1:31

Nicole, you're in Australia, Is that right?

Nicole 1:34

Yes, I am.

Tammy 1:35

What part?

Nicole 1:36

I live in Brisbane with my family. Yes.

Tammy 1:39

Yes. And so that's why we said good morning. And Nicole should be saying good night because we're 16 hours apart. So it's 5 a.m. here; we woke up at 4:30, right?

Tamu 1:52

We woke up at 4:30. And I just want to say this really fast. The majority of the people in the world can never ask me to do this. My family can ask me and Tammy is my family. And Elder Holland could ask me to wake up, and talk about Jesus.

Tammy 2:14

This early in the morning, in full disclosure, I made Tamu come to my house and spend the night because I'm like, listen, I can't trust you. You got to wake up.

Tamu 2:22

She knows me.

Tammy 2:24

Guess what she was up before I got up. I went down. She's getting ready for the day; you woke up way earlier than me. So

Tamu 2:31

Because I kept waking up all through the night. So funny, I was like, did I miss it?

Nicole 2:40

The same thing, the same thing this morning. I kept like waking up in the morning going, I know I'm going to be late because I had so many things to get done today to ensure that I got back here on time. It's just and then yeah, anyway.

Tammy 2:56

You've been tortured for days.

Tamu 2:58

Yes, it was just a few hours for me.

Tammy 3:02

Poor Nicole, because it's 93:0 at night over here.

Nicole 3:05


Unknown Speaker 3:07

Oh my gosh!

Nicole 3:08

It's okay. I am so happy to be here. I was listening to your podcast this time, around this time last year when we were on lockdown. And it was the best thing. There was so many times I needed to hear what was shared. I felt so inspired by it. So it really saved me through the lockdown last year. So yeah. And then to be on it this year, like, I feel so so so special. No, I'm so grateful, grateful to be able to be on here with you all.

Tamu 3:37

Oh yeah. It's so great to have you.

Tammy 3:39

It is, we're so glad you're with us. And it's been fun getting to know you and having you as a friend over the year when you first reached out a year ago. I was like, ah, look at her. She's beautiful and lovely. And I, just, it's just was fun to see your family. And so yeah, we're so glad you're with us. This is fun. If you want to know more about our friends and see pictures of them, you can find their bios in our show notes which are at LDS slash Sunday on Monday. So go check that out. Okay, so my question is to both of you, do you guys have a family history?

Tamu 4:11

I mean, I think everybody has a family history. What type of family history are we talking about?

Tammy 4:16

I don't know. Is it written or stories told?

Tamu 4:20

In my family stories get told.

Nicole 4:23

Um hmm. That's the same with my mine.

Tammy 4:25

Same. We do have some written though. And I've known families that actually, they take them and make books. Like that's a, that's a whole nother level of family history.

Nicole 4:36

Yeah, I have. I have a book that was published. It was for my mother's side of the family. It's love Letters. I say they're love letters anyway. They were called the Clinton Couple. He is my great grandfather. He wrote in his accent. So he was definitely Scottish. Yes, he was Scottish. So yeah, when you read it, it kind of, some things is spelled a certain way, like how he would have said it.

Tammy 5:07

Oh, that's so cool. Love letters.

Tamu 5:14

I know.

Tammy 5:15

Yeah, that's never gonna happen for my kids.

Tamu 5:17

I'll get my text messages published. The good, the bad.

Tammy 5:21

Oh, there you go. Let's publish text messages, delete, delete, delete, delete. That's funny. Well, the reason why I asked this is because these three sections are just filled with some really rich history. And so I'm really excited to study these and get your perspective on them. So everyone who's listening, friends, grab your scriptures, and let's dig in.

Well, Nicole, I think that story you shared about those letters from your great-great grandfather is just amazing. And now you have it in print form, which is so cool, because that's kind of the premise of Section 85. So Section 85 is actually a letter that Joseph Smith wrote, and it was added to the Doctrine and Covenants. So this is really interesting. It was a letter written by Joseph Smith to WW Phelps; it was not included in the original Doctrine and Covenants, but it was later added by Brigham Young in 1876.

And the letter was written in response to letters that Joseph had received from some of the saints in Missouri. And so he felt like he needed to address concerns of the saints in Missouri. So he writes this letter, which is now Doctrine and Covenants Section 85. And portions of this letter are the instructions to John Whitmer, who's the historian at the time, that's who it's originally addressed to. So I want us to look at verse 1 and 2, and see what Joseph Smith had to say in this letter to John Whitmer. So Tamu, will you read verses one and two, and we're going to read this and then mark it

Tamu 6:48

"1 It is the duty of the Lord's clerk, whom he has appointed, to keep a history, and a general church record of all things that transpire in Zion, and of all those who consecrated properties, and received inheritances legally from the bishop;

"2 And also their manner of life, their faith, and works; and also of the apostates who apostatize after receiving their inheritances."

Tammy 7:16

So let's take a look at verse 1 where it says the Lord's clerk, now that is John Whitmer. So write that in your scriptures, so we know who we're talking to. And it says he's appointed to keep a history. Now underline the word 'history' there. Now let's go into verse 2 where it tells us exactly what this history is, like, what is the Lord talking about? It is a manner of their life, faith, works, and a record of the apostates.

There's a lot that goes in to the history that the Lord wants. So He's like, Here's what I want you to write about. When I think of sometimes, like my journals, they do not contain like, my journals don't contain very much of my faith, or works. It mostly is just to complain about how I'm single and I want to date people. These are, these are journals I'm going to have to burn at some point.

Tamu 8:01

Can we just put a little part in there because sometimes I am petty in my journals. And I just want to point out right here in verse 2, how it says that those who have apostasized after receiving their inheritance, that right there was a lot of shade. I don't know if people picked up on that. If you receive your inheritance, and then you apostasize. Oh, woe unto you, booboo.

Tammy 8:31

We're writing about it.

Tamu 8:33

I'm like, oh my goodness, I would not want my names to be in that one! The Lord, it's contrary to the Lord's will. Okay?

Tammy 8:43

Yeah, Oh Iove that you pointed that out. Wha-wha, No thanks.

Tamu 8:49

Oh, shade.

Tammy 8:51

Shade. That's a good way to put it. I love that.

But I just think it's beautiful how the Lord here is like, 'Here's what I want in your journals. Here's what I want in your history of the church or in your family history'. And so I'm just kind of thinking like, tell me a little bit about your experience with family history. How has that played a role in your life?

Tamu 9:10

I think that for me, it's been interesting to look at, as these stories get passed down. My great grandfather on my maternal side, he was very involved in politics. He had an identical twin; they had moved from Arkansas to Oklahoma. At the time, black people could only be involved in the Republican Party. But my family actually had to leave Oklahoma, him and his twin brother in the middle of the night because the Democrats had started trying to vet black people at the time. And so he was supposed to get paid from the Republicans. They didn't pay him. And so he went to the Democrats and started telling them kind of their strategy. And so they paid him and the Republican Party was mad.

So him and his identical twin had to leave in the middle of the night on a train. The women stayed behind because they were going to California to get jobs and to get situated. And so my grandmother kind of lived for about a month in a boarded up house to make it seem like everybody was gone. It just was a mess. Anyway, I love to do political things. Now I won't, I don't see myself running for office, but I love to help people. And the thing is, I don't, I'm not a Republican, I'm not a Democrat, I just like a person and I like what they're doing. And so I just, I'll help them if I feel called to help them.

I think I was talking to my great aunt, so his daughter, one of his daughters, and she was saying, you know, your grandfather, that's how we ended up in California because your grandfather had to leave in the middle of the night, you had to pick a side. It was just like, no I don't, though. I live in Utah; I don't have to pick a side. You know, this is in my epigenetics. My DNA makeup. And that I will be involved in this political stuff. So I thought it was interesting.

Tammy 11:14

Very interesting. That's a cool story. Thank you for sharing that. I didn't know that. What about you, Nicole? What role has your family history played in your life?

Nicole 11:23

It definitely has helped me feel more connected to my family. Apart from those letters, that book of letters, on my father's side, he's someone, my dad's someone, there's not much written. So you hear stories through them when they tell you and my grandparents are still alive. But on my mom's side, my grandparents and not live. My Nana, she is Rarotongan so it's the Cook Islands. And she passed away when my mum was 11. My mum would keep photos of her in our house. I, as a child, I felt very connected to her, to the photo.

So when I would do my family history research, any kind of story that I could find on my family, and my granddad - who also passed away when my brother was born - anything that I could find in that line, so that I could find any kind of connection that really really blessed my life.

Tammy 12:21

Nicole, it's a beautiful story. And you know what word I loved? And Tamu, I'm sure you picked up on this was when she said the word 'connection'. Like that stood out to me, it is; using our family history there, it gives us a connection to our ancestors. And I just think it's interesting that here we are with Joseph Smith, and we're in 1832. And the church is, you know, about 12 years old, and the Lord is like, 'And now let's talk about a church history', and then a challenge for all of us to keep our history. And just because of that history, we have a connection to the early saints, which is so awesome.

And then it kind of made me think, what kind of connection will my grandchildren have with me? And what am I writing? And what do I want them to know about? Look back at that verse 2; what do I want them to know about the manner of my life and my faith and my works? And so just, I don't know, I, that was such a cool word. I love that you pointed that out. I want to know from both of you really quickly, though, in a sentence or two. Like, what do you want your generations past you to know about your faith and your works?

Tamu 13:30

I did pick up on that word 'connection' very strongly that resonated with me. And I want them to have a connection with God, with Christ. And I think that that's where my faith comes from, is this grandfather that I am talking about. He was a deacon and my great- grandmother was a missionary in the Church of God and Christ. And so I come from a family that praises and they're worshippers and I want my grandchildren to feel that same connection to me as they seek their relationship with Christ.

Tammy 14:11

Beautifully said. I like that. What about you, Nicole?

Nicole 14:15

When I think of what I hope my family, my children and children's children think of me, I hope they see what I was like. Like, I hope they like me. Because when I would dig for information about my ancestors, if I found anything that was written or signed, like I came across army documents, and I saw their handwriting it just brought me so much joy. So and when my children read my journals, I want them to know more about me. Like, I have all these journals that I've half-written in. Because I see another journal and I'm like, Oh, that's a pretty one. Oh, they're like a different, yeah in some ways. And that's my temple one....

Tamu 14:58

Nicole and I are kindred.

Tammy 15:00

Same, I was just thinking that - I have so many half journals, perfectly said.

Nicole 15:05

Yeah, I hope they see my person I am, but one of the things I do hope they see in my life is my perspective at the time, how I view the world, how I view my testimony, how I see Heavenly Father and His role in my life. And it changes and I love to see the change of the year. So I hope that when they look to me, that they learn that, depending on their perspective at the time,that they can have joy in their lives, they can feel close to the Savior, just according to their understanding at the time. There was a period of time in my life where I was not active in the church and what kept me away was my perspective on repentance. And so I hope that when they read all of my stories of how I viewed Heavenly Father, and how it changed over the years that they can learn from that, you know?

Tammy 15:59

Well, thank you, Nicole, for sharing that. Thanks for getting personal, I really appreciate that. And I, I've loved this discussion on history. In fact, it's made me think back to maybe I should go back and fill in some of those half journals. Heaven knows I got a lot of paper left. So that is a great challenge for all of us. And what's cool is Section 85, that's just two verses of instruction that the Lord's giving to John Whitmer, and the Saints. And so in the next segment, we're going to talk about more instruction that the Lord gave Joseph Smith and to Johm Whitmer, as well as a very specific book that he was to write in.

Segment 2 16:25


Tammy 16:39

If you guys saw a book that had a title, "The Book of the Law," what do you think it would be about? That's the only title "The Book of the Law."

Tamu 16:48

It would be the book of the rules, the book of the law.

Nicole 16:50

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, there's all these rules and restrictions. And

Tammy 16:55

Yes, not a really fun read, am I right? You're not going to bed with that. Now, what if the book was titled "The Book of the Law of God"? What would it be about?

Tamu 17:06


Tammy 17:08

Yeah, definitely. Maybe the Bible? Like, don't we already have a book called that? It was interesting, because did you guys pick up on section 85 how often that book was, it was called "The Book of the Law of God." Many times I marked it, I marked it in verse 5. I marked it in verse 7. Verse 9, it says, a book of remembrance, which is kind of, it's alluding to the book of the law. And then we have it again in verse 11.

So I just want to give you a really quick tip, we're not even going to spend time on this, but I just want you to know what this is. And you can look this up on the Joseph Smith papers website. But Joseph Smith said it was a history and a general church record, and that it must be kept of all things that transpire in Zion, and all of those who consecrate properties.

Another cool thing about the book of the law of God is that there are nine new revelations recorded in this book. And of those nine, six were actually included in the Doctrine and Covenants. So in the book of the law of God, the revelations of Section 124, 125, 105, 87, 111, and 103, are now in our present Doctrine and Covenants. There will be in the show notes, some more information about this book if you're interested in doing any more research about it.

But just know that the Lord said, 'We're going to start this book, -it's going to be called the "Book of the Law of God" - it existed during Old Testament time. And you can look up those references in the show notes. "And in this book, you're going to also keep a record of people and what's going on with the church," and like it said, "a history of the church and people who apostatize."

So that's what you need to know about the book of the law of God. Okay, now that we know that, what we have to then talk about are verses 3-5 and 8-12. And these verses were deep and Tamu, you had a lot to say about this. I want to know what your thoughts were as you read section 85.

Tamu 18:50

As I read section 85 I saw the things that I thought were funny, and this is so petty, like, it just speaks to my personality a little bit. But the book of remembrance shall find none inheritance in that day, shall be cut asunder, and their portion shall be appointed them among unbelievers, where are wailing and gnashing of teeth. And I was like, gollllly! And that's verse 9.

You skip back up to verse 2. And it talks about how those who apostasize after they received their inheritance and how that was, you know, contrary to the will of God. I just thought that I actually want my name in the book of remembrance; I don't want to be counted as one who lost their inheritance and went against and was found contrary to the will and the commandments of God.

Tammy 19:46

No, I'm totally with you Tamu. I do want my name in that book. And we even see how serious it is not to be included in this book. In verse 4 where it says "and neither is their genealogy to be kept", this is what we need to know: mark the word "genealogy" and I want you to write above it, it means "church membership records." That's what it's talking about here like, these are people who apostatized after receiving their inheritance. It just kind of reminds me at the end of Willy Wonka: "you get nothing!" (laughter) "You failed, you don't, you get nothing. Because you didn't do what you were asked to do." This is the some pretty harsh stuff. God's not messing around, right?

Tamu 20:25

Right. Well, and it's interesting too, because as I was, I was reading this, of course, and giggling about it and talking to my son. He just turned 18. Happy birthday, Elijah, but he turned 18. And he is honestly, at my house we call him the Prince of Shade, because he picks up on the shadiest things, you know.

Like, isn't it interesting how in the Doctrine and Covenants, if you've got your inheritance, and then you Apostasize you were cut off. But in the Bible, when you read about the Prodigal Son, and I honestly, like, he had me at 'in the Bible', because I didn't know He paid attention like that, number one. And number two, it just really made me think about like, yeah, the Prodigal Son did receive his inheritance, and then he was able to go back. And I think that we see later in the Doctrine and Covenants how people actually did return.

Tammy 21:25

Oh, Tamu, I love that you pointed that ou, tbecause the idea of this is, it's all preparatory. This is the end-all, beat-all book of the law of God, this isn't current right now. I mean, this is going to be at the end, and God is a God of chances. And so you still have time to get it together. And you still have time to have your name put in that book. Yes, I loved that you pointed that out. What about you, Nicole?

Nicole 21:48

As you were talking, I was thinking about wanting to have your name in that book. Uh, just a bit of a backstory, when I used to read in Alma chapter 5, I could not read it, especially as a teen. Because I would literally feel like this those first verses is quite like confronting. Like, I felt like I was not worthy to stand before any kind of bar before the Lord. So I have my journal, Book of Mormon.

Again, looking back on my journals, like, what I was thinking at one stage. So one stage, I just knew my name would never be in that book because of the choices I had made in my life. But this was last year, and I decided, you know what, I'm going to say to myself, my name is in that book. And so is my family. And so I drew a little picture of the book, and I put all of our names in it. One, this is in Alma chapter 5, verse 58.

Tammy 22:55

Hold on, I want to go there, Alma Chapter 5, verse 58 so I can put your name next to that verse.

Nicole 23:01

Alma Chapter 5: "58 But the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life, and unto them I will grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have ye to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the Word of God must be fulfilled."

As I was reading that I was just like, I'm not going to tell myself that I'm, it's not possible for me, to my name to be in that book. And to have that kind of perspective. So that yeah, I wrote that and put "Our family will be in that book of life at the end of the, at the end of all, whatever comes, whatever happens."

Tammy 23:39

Oh, wow. I'm so glad you shared that with us that is so cool.

Tamu 23:45

Right, I think that that is beautiful.

Tammy 23:47

Who would have ever known you had an experience with that idea of a book, the book of life, the book of remembrance, the Book of the Law of God, that is so cool, Nicole.

Nicole 23:56

Because I kind of feel like sometimes when you read the Doctrine and Covenants, the language can be quite scary, you know. Like, it's in a way where it feels like, you make a wrong step, then you're out. But what I've come to know about my Savior, and my Heavenly Father for myself, is they're not like that. They're very loving, and they speak very much in a loving way.

Tammy 24:26

Absolutely, amen. So right. Thank you, Nicole. Thanks for sharing that. That was so cool. Well, I love what you've both of you shared because in the next segment, we're going to touch on that idea that God is a God a second and third chances and we're going to read two verses that teach us about His goodness in this section.

Segment 3 24:48


Tammy 24:56

Okay, I'm going to read Doctrine and Covenants Section 85, verse 6, As I do, will you please mark everything it tells us about the Holy Ghost?

"6 Yea, Thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things,and oftentimes it makes my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:"

Okay, what did you mark about the Holy Ghost, or what does that verse tell you about the Holy Ghost?

Nicole 25:24

That it's a still small voice.

Tammy 25:27

What about you Tamu. What stands out in that verse?

Tamu 25:29

It is interesting that it says that it's a still small voice, and it whispers, but it pierces through all things. And at times that it can make it somebody's bones to quake.

Tammy 25:44

Have either one of you had an experience like that with the Holy Ghost?

Tamu 25:47

It was around the time of my 16th birthday. My mom told my sister she could not go to the skating rink unless I went, my younger sister, unless I went with her. And as they went to drop us off, I just, I got out of the car, and I said, I don't want to go. You know, my sister was saying, just please come, please, I just want to go, my friends are gonna be there. But I felt it. I heard it. It was just very, 'Don't go, don't go.' And I did go. And it just did not end well for me. This was not a great experience. A lot of the times the Holy Ghost, for me, sounds like very different than the still, small voice. But in that moment, I totally get this, where it was just very subtle, like, just don't go.

Tammy 26:40

A great story, a great example of that. Thank you. What about you, Nicole?

Nicole 26:44

I've had many experiences with the spirit. But it's only in the last three years that I've actually learned when the Spirit spoke to me. The #1 one is when I first read the Book of Mormon, and then I received that burning in the bosom. It was so overwhelming and so powerful, there's just no words to describe that. How I'm able to tell if it is the Spirit speaking to me is relating back to those moments, but the most powerful one of all stems from there was a time in my life where things were just was not, it was not good. There was a like, a rock bottom moment, you know, you have? Well, not everyone has it, I did.

So yeah, some of my favorite photos is of the Savior and when He's embracing. And so the reason why is because this time in my life, everything had fallen apart. Like, it didn't happen overnight; this is years and years of repressed shame and pain and guilt and fear for some of the decisions I made, and I didn't go a certain way that I thought I should have or I was raised to. So it was this particular night, I had been reading the addiction recovery program and I had come across the honesty part. So I was waiting for that. I was just in tears, complete tears. So there was a part and hope that was like even the acknowledgement of saying that 'I'm not there yet', is enough to get the ball rolling.

So I got on my knees and I began my prayer. And it was a prayer of I don't know what to do. I just know I need it to end. And wherever it goes, I just want it to be ended or be taken away. In that moment, that was when I remembered the "Keep the Commandments", singing it as a primary kid. It was safety and peace that I needed.

And so I was very grateful. And I just, but I still was like, even in this brokenness, like, but I am still unwilling, I am so unwilling to come back because I just can't. And then I thought, this thought came to mind that there was just a little chance that I could return and I could repent. And that's when I asked if I was to come back, that He would have to guide me, He would have to help me all the way. And in that moment, I felt just an embrace of love. And it was so overwhelming. So that was like a whole, the bones quake, the piercing all things,everything, nothing mattered. But that feeling I had and that testament that He loves me and He was ready to guide me all the way.

And so now moving forward, obviously I went on a little bit of a journey trying to figure out is it me, or is it the spirit? Like, is it just my thoughts? But yeah, I always compare it to those two feelings: that burning in my bosom experience when I read the Book of Mormon for the first time, and that loving embrace.

Tammy 30:02

Wow, Nicole.

Tamu 30:03

Thank you so much for sharing, that was beautiful.

Tammy 30:07

Well, and as Nicole was talking I'm like, her story is a testament of verse 7. It's so cool. Nicole, will you just read verse 7.

Nicole 30:17

"7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;"

Tammy 30:53

Thank you. I just love the beauty of that. And when it says, 'it comes to pass, that I, the Lord God will send one mighty and strong', He's talking about the Savior, Jesus Christ, and how that verse just described him. In fact, that's the title for Section 85. "One mighty and strong". And as you were telling your story I felt the spirit witnessing that what you were saying was true. And that the Lord is mighty and strong; mighty and strong enough to do whatever he needs to do to help people like Nicole, to bring back the Nicoles of the world. And then the Tamus and the Tammys, and everyone who's listening, like, that's what's so cool. He is mighty and strong enough to do that, for every single one of us.

It's just cool in this verse, He's arranging a lot for our inheritances, for the saints to return to live with our Heavenly Father again, and to have a place with Him. You are a testimony and a testament of verse 7. That's so cool, Nicole.

Tamu 31:46


Tammy 31:48

Wow, good stuff.

Tamu 31:50

I just, I love the Lord, I do. I just love the Lord. And I just think there's some experiences, that my experiences are so unique, because God loves me so much. But listening to your story, like, we ask and we receive. I've had those moments where I'm just like, 'God, if You want this for me, You have to show me what this looks like. You have to take my hand, and You have to show me'. And just knowing that you were able to say that and then call on the spirit like that, that was just beautiful.

Nicole 32:22

That's so true. Like, literally the Lord carried me all the way. It's only now that I look back that He'd never left me. He was always with me. I just didn't see Him. But now I do.

Tammy 32:37

Beautiful, just beautiful, thank you. Thank you, both of you. Well nine days after receiving Section 85 Joseph received another revelation on a very familiar parable. And it's found in Matthew Chapter 13. But what's interesting, is that while Joseph Smith was translating the Bible, he was not translating Matthew chapter 13. He was kind of going back over the Old Testament that he had just retranslated. So he's reviewing some changes and he finds himself thinking about and reviewing again, Matthew Chapter 13.

So we're going to talk about this parable, and I'm excited to get Tamu's take on this, because she taught me a lot about this parable several episodes ago, so it's gonna be fun to talk about it. So we'll get into that in the next segment.

Segment 4 33:17


Tammy 33:27

Section 86. I'm just gonna give you the title right up front. The title for it is "Wheat and tares - lawful heirs of the Priesthood". Okay, you guys, here's some fun background. Now, this section was originally Section 5 in the very first publication of the Doctrine and Covenants. And it was followed with what we now know as section 84, and then 107. Now the primary focus of these sections was the priesthood. And it would be the priesthood that would fulfill the parable that's found in Section 86, which is called the parable of the wheat and tares. You've probably heard of this. If not, it is found in Matthew chapter 13.

Now in the spring of 1831, Joseph Smith had been translating the Bible, and he actually went over the parable of the wheat and tares. Then he will revise his own revision a year and a half later. Now this is kind of cool, because in his journal for December 6, 1832 -which is the date Section 86 was received- Joseph Smith says, "he spent the day translating and received a revelation explaining the parable of the wheat and tares." So there are some changes and we are going to take a look at them as we study this parable. So let's jump into the parable.

Okay, so verse 2, here's some things you want to know. The apostles are sowing the seed whereas in Matthew Chapter 13, it says, The Lord is sowing the seed, so kind of take note of that. Then in verse 3, at night, after they fall asleep, Satan comes in and he sews tares among the wheat. This is so interesting, because notice when Satan does this, he does it at night. He does it in darkness like, doesn't that sound so familiar? Course he's doing it at night. Now the tares choked the wheat, and they drove the church into the wilderness, which is a symbol for apostasy.

And now in verse 4, I need to just point this out because it's so cool. In verse 4 it says, But behold, in the last days, which means today, the wheat, which is the church and God's people, is beginning to grow, as well as the tares. And the angels in, it says right here, they want to come, like they're just chomping at the bit to save the wheat and pull up all of the tares. Okay, so let's just pause for a second here, and we're going to talk about tares. So tell me, tell us about this parable and why it's significant to you and what you know about it.

Tamu 35:45

First, I just want to say to my friend Myron Richins, thank you. Because when I, when I'm going through certain things in my life, there are certain people that I like to call on and Myron was a seminary teacher for years. He just knows so much. I mean, I want to say everything, but I don't want him to get a big head. But he knows so much.

Tammy 36:10

I taught with Myron and I will double that shout out; he is so smart.

Tamu 36:13

He's the best. Yeah. And so we were talking about cycles, everything has a cycle, everything has a season. And it got on to the wheat and the tares. And I just kind of kept some notes. And so, of course, I call Tammy and we were talking we were having this discussion about seasons and cycles and these things that happen in life. And Tammy and I started talking about wheat and tare. And as we were talking about wheat and tare, and we were talking about how they bundled it and they burnt it. But as they were growing together, the keeper said let it grow. Because if you remove the tare from the wheat, the way that it grows together, you pull the wheat out.

Tammy 36:59

Yes, Tamu. In fact, here is something so cool that I learned in preparation for this discussion. Okay, this is by Don and Jay Parry, who I love. They said that the tares that are mentioned in this verse are typically viewed as what's called a Darnell weed, which is a species of bearded ryegrass. Now, when the two species of plants are young, they look so much like wheat. And as the Darnell weed grows, it's roots typically intertwine with the roots of the wheat. So it's really difficult to separate the two while they are growing without damaging the wheat.

Now, I thought this was interesting. If the Darnell is harvested with the wheat and mixed into bread, it's going to bring a bitter taste and it can even cause dizziness and act as a violent emetic, like, you're gonna vomit. So the Darnell must therefore be separated from the wheat at harvest time. I loved this, this really helped me understand this parable a lot better. So righteousness and evil will be neighbors, and even among the saints much will parade in the name of goodness and in the name of the Lord, which is a, an abomination in His sight. And you can see that in Section 50 verse 4 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Tamu, you look like you want to say something, I love this.

Tamu 38:11

I'm gonna say this. I know that you guys are probably gonna get some mail. And it's not gonna be great. And I apologize for that in advance. But when you look at this particular book, and it's talking about apostasy. And when you're thinking about how the wheat and the tare grow together, it just makes me look around in my environment, and wonder who the tare are. Just looking at the story of the wheat and the tare and comparing it to our everyday modern times, I do find a lot of it very interesting. But the most interesting part is the life that I live today. This has become so real for me in my life.

Tammy 38:58

Yeah. Here the wheat and the tares are growing together. And the whole goal is to not be fooled. The whole goal is to not look at that and think oh, suddenly you're plucking the tares looking for nourishment and food and it's just going to be empty nourishment. You'll get nothing out of the tares, but you don't know that because they look exactly alike. And you don't know that until the very end when it's time to go in and pluck that crop up. So I thought that was cool. I'm like that is exactly the key - the word nourish.

Tamu 39:31

I just think that it's so, I don't even want to say prophetic because it is the Bible and of course it's prophetic, it's scriptures, prophetic. But just even the way that it said let them grow together, let it grow together until it reaches its full cycle. Let it grow together for this season. Because there's gonna come a season when we have to separate.

Tammy 39:57

What you just said right there, that was the key. We will have to separate. Jump in Nicole.

Nicole 40:04

I'm very interested in why it has to. It seems just a little bit, yeah.

Tamu 40:12

If you start to pull the tares out while the wheat is growing, the roots kinda connect. And so you weaken the wheat. And when you think about that, when you know who you are, just like you knew who you were, if someone came through and started to say, you're righteous, you're righteous, you're not righteous, that would have weakened you. Then you just leave because to me that's such a turn off, for people to start plucking, you know, you start plucking, it's a turn off.

And so I needed my own testimony; I needed my testimony to be separate from everybody else's, because I needed that connection to my God. I needed my roots to go down deeper, and I needed to get whatever nourishment I was going to get. Because it doesn't matter how you nourish a weed, it's still going to be a weed.

Tammy 41:07

Read verse 6, Tamu. That's exactly what you described as verse 6.

Tamu 41:10

"6 But the Lord said unto them, pluck not up the tares while the blade is yet tender (for verily your faith is weak), lest you destroy the weak also,"

Tammy 41:23

It's just what you said, let it grow, let the faith strengthen. Oh, I like that.

Nicole 41:28

I think, in my mind I was sort of imagining like, wheat and tares may be like. As members in the church, like, visualizing that, like what I should say, like, oh, you're righteous, you're righteous, you're not. But when you think of it towards yourself, because that's what I kind of was feeling as you're speaking is that you have tares growing on you, it has to be there, like you have to have trials so that you can grow and learn. And they're not going to be taken away until the end you know,? I think when we look at it personally, the wheat and the tares have to grow together, like it's looking within ourselves, so that we can be strengthened. And then yeah, and then they can be....

Tammy 42:10

That is such an interesting take on that verse. I love that analogy, Nicole. Like, what role have tares played in my life? Like, I'm just thinking about it right now. I mean, have the tares strengthened my faith or weakened it? Because I know for me personally, I really have grown comfortable with my tares. And at times it did weaken me, but thankfully, you know what? Gosh, thankfully the Lord - He isn't gathering yet. I mean, those angels, they are ready to come and the Lord's like, 'Yeah, wait it out. They need some more time'. In fact, I kind of think that's the purpose of verse 7. And you know what? It's one of the most significant differences from Matthew Chapter 13. Look at verse 7. And you can go compare it with Matthew 13. Rather than focusing on the burning of the tares, which is what Matthew 13 does, in the Doctrine and Covenants it focuses on the gathering. That's kind of what we've been asked to do by our Prophet, it's all about gathering now.

Tamu 42:15

I do want to say that, as personally, we're not the target; it's not about us. It's about Satan trying to take away from God what is important to God. And he knows that we all have a role to play in this building of this kingdom. And if I'm a soldier in God's army, I'm gonna, there's going to be some times where I am attacked. But I'm also going to be healed in that process, because I'm important to the work in this kingdom.

Tammy 43:34

Wow, amen!

Nicole 43:37

This might be a little bit off-field, but I was having this conversation with one of my friends. And we're talking about the power that we have as covenant keepers, and how it blesses others and that is the Savior's intention. For some reason, it's just come to mind after your explanation of the wheat and tares. Because as I've gone back into work, there was me, who was obviously a member in the, in our group training, and then there was returned missionary. And to have two covenant keepers in this group of 17 of us, we formed a bond that felt like a family and it happened so effortlessly.

But I was just feeling like Heavenly Father knew that not all His children were going to be able to make covenants in this life. But He is relying on the ones that will make covenants; that those that don't will still be able to feel of His love through them. Because when I think of the wheat and tars and the separation, I kind of think of like, good people, bad people. I don't know why it just keeps in my mind it's how I see it. I really need to look into this more.

Tamu 44:46

You just said something that is actually something that I wrote down when you said 'intentions'. And so I have a garden and I, every seed that I plant I have an intention for that seed. I have, you know, I want that seed to grow; I set an intention on growing something from that seed. The seeds are good. They're integral, I and I want them to grow. I water them, I do the things that I need to do to make them grow. And I think that if we are the seeds, then God has a plan for our life. And we are all seeds. He has intentions for us, He has a plan for us. And we don't all grow at the same time. I mean, they're the same plants that I plant, I plant them at the same time. And one time, one will spark up here, and another one will spark up someplace else.

I have this experience with the Easter Lily. I have, do you guys have Easter Lillies? I got into gardening last year; I bought these plants, these Easter lilies, and they died and I was mad. And so I pulled them up like in the fall. I told them I'm not a great gardener but it's okay because I'm not God. And I threw them in the trash. And then this year as I was like, I'm gonna I was like, I said to my girlfriend Zandra, I said, "I'm gonna try this again. And if I don't get it, right, I guess I'm just going to have to shop for the rest of my life."

I actually did grow some things in my garden. But these lilies, I wasn't going to put more flowers out near my garden. So I went out and I'm plowing and I'm getting up, I'm getting the ground ready to plant seeds. And I look over and it was right after Easter, you guys. And I kid you not. I was pulling weeds and I was like, that is not a weed. But I sent pictures of this. And these lilies are coming up. You guys, I got rid of them. It was right after Easter and I was like, this is why they call it the Easter Lily. It's a resurrection!

Tammy 46:53


Tamu 46:56

It's like they have seeds. So they start to seed themselves. And I had gotten rid of it. I wasn't even thinking about these things. And now they're just coming through this dry soil and they're just popping up. And I just thought, wow, this is us. Like, this is who we are. We think that, we count people out and that is why we're not God because we count people out. We're the seeds, God is the gardener. I can't say anything about anybody else, I can only testify for myself. That's kind of how it's supposed to be.

Tammy 47:36

And the seed is good.

Tamu 47:38

And the seed is good. And the Gardner has every intention on our life and He has a plan for our life and it's different for each of us.

Tammy 47:47

And those tares in that story, it says that the tares are choking the wheat. And the angels are like, let's go save the wheat. Like why, why would we let the tares choke the wheat? And Heavenly Father's like, 'Hold on, I got a plan. We're gonna wait it out. I know it looks like it's choking it, but it's gonna be okay. It's a good seed. And I need it to get stronger roots. I need its faith to grow.' We've all had a choking phase. We've all felt like, oh I can't, not, you know, and the Lord's like, hold on, you can do. Like Nicole, I just think of you in that phase of your life and the Lord's like, You can do this.

Nicole 48:23

Yeah, definitely. It's from that prayer that I initially did. Then the year I was able to go into the temple with a temporary recommend. And then not even a year later, my family - we were sealed in the temple. And I remember like, just thinking it was not possible. It wasn't going to be possible. And time and time again. Throughout that - not even a two-year timeframe - the Lord kept showing me everything is possible through Me'. And I remember, it was the week before we found out we were going to go to the temple. And that was, that moment I was like, I don't think it's ever going to happen. I don't know why, I just kept having this, 'It's never going to happen., never goin' to happen for me' and and that way.

I remember I was talking to a friend, she said, "You stop holding that noose around your neck." She goes, "You are doing great. You just, you know, you don't worry about that." And I think I ended up sort of like making that decision in my mind. If it happens it happens. I know I'm loved. I'm okay if it doesn't happen right now. The following Sunday, you know, my husband had gone, seeing the Bishop and he was talking with him. And then they called me in, when I walked in there was his temple recommend sitting there on the table and I was just like, what just happened? And last week it was like, how come he got his temple recommend?

I was about to question it like, wait. Like, how come this happened without my knowing? You know, like, I didn't know it was gonna happen. And then all I felt was like, no, no shush-shush, it's ha[[ening, it's finally happening. And now, yeah, we were able to get our - what is it - living ordinance recommend? Yeah. So yeah, I, that choking,like I had it the whole entire way, right up until, yeah, until I got sealed and I was be able to kneel across my the altar with my husband to be sealed for all time and eternity of the promise that was made in my patriarchal blessing was fulfilled. And then our children came in and their expressions were the best and they were sealed to us.

Tammy 50:40

Wow, Oh, I bet.

Tamu 50:43

God planted us with the intention of growing food crops. We are all good.

Tammy 50:48

Amen. Oh my gosh, that's so good. That was a great discussion. And thank goodness he didn't come in and pluck up the tare. We wouldn't have Nicole.

Tamu 50:59

You wouldn't have ME.

Tammy 51:00

Yeah, hello. We wouldn't have any of us, who are we kidding?

Tamu 51:03

Most of us would be gone.

Tammy 51:05

God is so good. God is so good. K, thank you ladies. That was incredible. Oh, that was incredible. Okay, next is Section 87. And this is what I'm excited about, not only for the prophecy in Section 87, but I want to know what it is to Nicole and anybody who doesn't live in the United States. It's going to be good.

Segment 5 51:25


Tammy 51:35

All right, everyone, section 87. The title is "Prophecy on wars". Now this is such a cool section. As I was studying it, I started to wonder, gosh, I wonder what members of the church who are not from the United States, or living in the United States, think about this section. Section 87 is Joseph Smith's prophecy on the Civil War. He gave this in 1832, the civil war will not happen until the 1860s, 1861. Now we have a lot to say about this, but before we get started, Nicole, what is this to you? You aren't even from America. And for somebody reading this who never lived in America or knew about the Civil War, I want to know what your take was on this?

Nicole 52:15

Well, I grew up in New Zealand. And obviously, I live in Australia. So of course, we weren't really taught the American history. So I'm not really familiar with this Civil War. I know this section is talking about a war in America, but I just yeah, I'm not too sure about the details.

Tammy 52:34

Yeah, okay. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. Because I think a lot of saints are like, what is section 87 for and what's the point of all of this? So, let's talk about the Civil War. So Tamu, teach us. Take it away.

Tamu 52:49

The Civil War was what happened with the southern states were trying to leave the Union because they wanted to maintain their property. And their property was people, black people, my people. And so that's not the only reason that it happened. It was this war over territory and money and taxes and all kinds of stuff and in the process Black people ended up helping out with the war. That's how we got free. And we actually were able to maintain the southern states as part of the Union in that process. And so America maintained its status as one country with the southern states connected.

Tammy 52:51

And the southern states wanted to just do their own thing. And they wanted to own slaves, and just run their own country down there.

Tamu 53:44

They wanted to do what they wanted to do.

Tammy 53:46

Yeah, so a huge war happened. Many of those who fought, literally fought for their lives, their life of freedom, anti-slavery, and so many people died. Thousands and 1,000s and 1,000s of people died.

Tamu 54:01

And when they say that it was brother against brother, literally, that is the truth. You know, people fought their family members, and it got real, it was real out there. So

Tammy 54:14

You know what? It totally did, and can we just say that it brought a lot of misery to so many people. It was awful. Thank you, Tamu for explaining that. So, with this section I have a question for both of you. Because here's the point of Section 87: What's the difference between a prediction and a prophecy?

Tamu 54:31

I would say a prediction is a guess. And a prophecy is knowledge that some entity like God told you something and you're prophesying that. You're repeating what you heard from a higher being.

Tammy 54:49

Perfect. That's exactly right. Did you want to add anything Nicole?

Nicole 54:53

Prediction can be also like a well-educated guess. You know, like from a learned, someone who is very well-knowledgeable and you can, they can look at certain historical facts or whatever. And then they can predict what's going to happen and usually they're right, but comparing that to prophecy. Prophecy's from God. And His wisdom we won't really understand whereas, I feel that predictions can be explained. But His wisdom, His prophecy, sometimes we don't really understand.

Tammy 55:27

Perfect, both of your answers were perfect. In fact, Nicole, when you said a well- educated guess or assumption of what's going to happen, that's what a lot of people assumed when Joseph Smith received this prophecy on war in 1832. Here's his prediction. Tamu, will you read Section 87 verse 1.

Tamu 55:43

"1 And verily thus saith the Lord" (First of all, let's just say 'thus saith the LORD', that's actually prophecy.) "Thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls."

Tammy 56:08

And people were like, yeah, you know what, Joseph, you really kind of missed the mark on this one. Because at this time in 1832, Joseph Smith had learned about a political conflict between the state of South Carolina and the Federal Government of the United States, and it was all over tariffs. And a tariff is like a tax on imports. Okay, this is such a big deal to South Carolina, because they were willing to go to war over having to pay these taxes. And so in December of 1832, newspapers were reporting about this conflict. So Joseph clearly would have known about it.

And then in early 1833, this conflict was actually settled; no one went to war over it. And so some people believed that the crisis had passed, and that Joseph Smith was totally wrong, he missed the boat, and he spoke presumptuously. But let's look at verse 4. And we're going to read about a detail of this prophecy on war. Tamu, will you please read verse 4.

Tamu 56:55

"4 And it shall come to pass, that after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war."

I just want to point out, too, that Joseph Smith is saying this, knowing full well that we have members of our church who actually have slaves. And so he's saying this, this is a revelation that he's receiving, knowing full well, that we have members of our faith who have enslaved people as property and I don't think he even stuttered. Like, I don't. 'Thus saith the Lord, this is gonna happen.

Tammy 57:36

Okay, I like that so much Tamu. In fact, we have to cross reference verse 4, with Doctrine and Covenants, Section 130, verses 12-13. You have to see this verse; the date is April 2, 1843. And here's what Joseph had to say about his prophecy that he received about the Civil War. Nicole read verses 12 and 13, please.

Nicole 57:56

"12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

"13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832."

Tammy 58:23

Wow. And then it happened in 1861. And Tamu, I really appreciate that you pointed out that brother fought against brother. I mean, it was an awful and bloody battle over ownership, the slave question, owning a human being. And then section 130 was received in 1843. So going back to what you said,Tamu, "Thus saith the Lord". What does it mean to you, both of you to know that we have a prophet who is capable of receiving this kind of prophecy or any prophecy for that matter?

Tamu 58:57

For me, it feeds my faith. If God is the same today, yesterday, and forever, then if He prophesied to Adam, He's gonna prophesy to people today. It's a safety net. This is so personal for me, I can't help but feel what my ancestors must have felt hearing somebody say this. Because you know you're not supposed to be property; you know that you should be free. You know you should have your agency and to have someone say this, even if you don't get to see it in your lifetime, you know that this is a possibility; you know that this man of God thinks that this is wrong.

And whether they thought that Joseph Smith was a prophet or not, I know that people were talking about this revelation that he received, and they were talking about it in a negative way. And they talked about it in front of these enslaved people who couldn't speak to it, who couldn't say anything. They were like furniture to some of these families. And so they would have these conversations.

And so when those enslaved people went back to their shacks and to wherever they stayed on the plantation and they were around other black people, they talked about this Joseph Smith and these things that he said that God said to him. And how much joy it must have made them feel in those moments, to know that God is still alive, and He still is looking at us. And He still cares about us. And there's going to come a day where we are free from all of this. It is so personal for me, that he would be bold enough to repeat it, because I think that there are times where God speaks to us and we know we hear it, but because it's not the popular thing to speak to, we don't repeat it.

Tammy 1:00:53

Oh, my gosh, Tamu, I love everything you just taught us in that moment. I keep going back to "thus saith the Lord", I gotta highlight that again and put your name by it, because yeah, he didn't. he didn't go back on that. Ever. And then he'll say it again. You know, like, 10 more years. he's like, I still maintain that that was revelation.

Tamu 1:01:15

He says it again. And he says the date and the year that he says it. "On this day, I said this." And that's how real it was for him.

Tammy 1:01:24

He could have so easily been like, Ah, Maybe I missed something there. Mmm, I could have gotten it wrong. I don't know. You know, he brings it up again. To say, No, it's gonna happen. That's amazing to me.

Tamu 1:01:35

When he wasn't here to see it.

Nicole 1:01:39

When I hear you speak Tamu, I just feel like the prophecy was very validating for those that would have been present. And then just reassuring, like you said, yeah, we know we're not property,

Tammy 1:01:52

That assurance from those, that prophecy is so powerful in this verse, because while verses 1-5, focus on the actual Civil War, verses 6-8 focus on us today. And so we're going to talk about that, and the assurance with these three verses that come into our lives in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:02:12


Tammy 1:02:19

Okay, so we just had an awesome discussion about Section 87 and the Civil War. Thank you, Tamu. Those words were powerful. And so now my question to Nicole is, Nicole, what do these verses mean to you? I mean, you're not from the United States, we talked about the importance of having a prophet be able to prophesy about certain things. And now we jump into verses 6-8. And I'm just curious, what do these mean to you or anybody who is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and isn't from America?

Nicole 1:02:47

I guess you could say it's kind of happening right now. Like, this civil war of opinions, and everyone's on opposite ends. Not comparing it to the Civil War, just like with words.

Tammy 1:03:02

Oh, you're absolutely right. How much do I love that you just said that, Nicole? You're right, we are all in a civil war. In fact, Nicole, will you please read verse 6, it is so descriptive.

Nicole 1:03:13

"6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignatio, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption degreed hath made a full end of all nations;"

Tammy 1:03:41

Thanks, Nicole. Now, if that verse sounded scary, or terrifying, there is hope. Verse 7 teaches us who will help us in this war that we're in. So Tamu, would you please read verse 7 for us.

Tamu 1:03:52

"7 That the cry of the saints, and the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies."

Tammy 1:04:04

Okay, so really quickly, I want us to define something in here, where it says he's called the Lord of Sabaoth. Highlight that, mark that, because it's not. I always thought it was Sabbath until I took Hebrew. And it's actually 'Saba oat', and that's a Hebrew word for 'armies'. He is the Lord of armies. I've thought about this name all week. And the idea that the Lord is called the Lord of Sabaoth, the Lord of armies. To me, it gives us the impression that He is a God of so much power, armies equal the ability to conquer and if He is the Lord of all armies from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies, He is mighty and strong. We have just continually said that throughout. He can do all things; He is truly that and so He is going to help us fight these battles in this time that we're living in. I mean, how scary did verse 6 sound?

Nicole 1:04:57

Yes, definitely very scary.

Tamu 1:04:58

You saying that, you know, I'm still a little bit Pentecostal, y'all. There's this song, it's a song and it's "I'm a soldier in the army. I'm a soldier in the army of the Lord."

Tammy 1:05:10

The Lord of Sabaoth, we are in His army. I like that; we are the army of the Lord. And I love how this section ends, verse 8. It contains a very real and clear directive from the Lord of armies, from the Lord of Sabaoth, because here is what He's asking us to do.

"8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen."

"Stand ye in holy places and be not moved." And so I just want us to think about that, like what makes a place holy? And do you guys have specific holy places? I'm curious, do you have a place that's holy for you where you go?

Tamu 1:05:53

I have a couple of holy places. But I think that what makes the place holy, is my spirit when I'm there in that place. So I make a place holy.

Tammy 1:06:04

Very well said. What about you, Nicole?

Nicole 1:06:06

Yeah, I definitely agree. It's where we stand and my holy places would be like the home, when it's clean, and the kids are happy, and everyone's happy. It's a holy place. The temple, of course, I love going to the temple. I love going out in nature. But when I was thinking about this, "standing in holy places, and be not moved", it's within us. We just look to the Savior as the example; He went into places that would have been unclean and dirty. And He went and touched and healed people that were rejected or shunned from society, but He made those places holy.

We still talk about those, those miracles He made. 'Stand in holy places, and be not moved' is looking to the holiness within yourself as a child or daughter or son of God.

Tamu 1:07:02

And I will just testify that I feel like being able to listen to Nicole's testimony, I was standing in a holy place. Because she was blessing us with that, and so thank you.

Nicole 1:07:20

No, thank you.

Tammy 1:07:22

I appreciate that you said it's the holiness within us. I mean, we've just experienced a year without a temple. And how incredible to be able to think that we've been able to stand in holy places, and what that's looked like for all of us. When you said you have many holy places, Tamu, I want to know, is there a specific place? Like, what does that look like? I'm trying to imagine your holy place.

Tamu 1:07:46

Currently, I, my holy place is my closet. I've a huge closet. I have found that I can go in there, I can go into my room, my room still absorbs a lot of sound. But when I close the doors in my room and then I go into my closet, it just is a silence and the stillness that is a touchstone for me. And my touchstone is always going to lead me back to Christ, and to my Heavenly Father. And so for me, it's being able to go in there and shut everything out. It energizes me being able to go there, I get energized. And then I also can become a holy place. It's my testimony builder. That's just that that's my place that I go.

Tammy 1:08:35

I like that you said that 'I can become a holy place', just like Nicole said; it's the holiness within us. Well, and when you look at verse 8, and it says, "to stand in holy places, and be not moved", talk to me about that and be not moved. What is your recommendation or your advice on how to not be moved?

Tamu 1:08:55

I know what I know. And I can't unknow it. I know what I felt the minute that I entered the doors of an LDS church, and nobody can make me unknow that because I know God. And I know what God testified to me in that moment as an 11 year old child. And so no one can make me say that I didn't feel what I felt. And I didn't hear what I heard. And I didn't experience what I experienced. And I look at even with Joseph Smith, when he goes back and says, 'On this day, I said this and I stand in that.' I stand in the truth that I stand in. You cannot move me. You can't, not with life still in me. I know what I know. And I can't unknow it.

Tammy 1:09:45

And you cannot move me. I love that. Tamu. Good, good. What about you, Nicole?

Nicole 1:09:51

Yeah, I just feel what you said was, it's so empowering. I think maybe before I would have looked at that and been like, Oh yeah, just got to stay on the right path and don't make a mistake. But it's more of an empowering statement for us, you know, be not moved. But sometimes it does take a bit of a journey to get to that point. Sometimes we, you know, might slip a little bit, but I feel like the journey there is coming to know our Savior through our experiences like Tamu said. You have those experiences where no one can tell you that you didn't feel what you felt, you know what you felt, and those are such sacred experiences.

Yeah, when I look back, and what's happened in the last, 2017 to now, there's just no way are we turning back. I'm not moving from this. I might not be as perfect or I might fall short a lot. But I understand from what I've gone through, I know what's happened in my life. That His Grace makes all the difference. We're supposed to fall short, that's what His atoning sacrifice makes up for.

Tamu 1:11:03

And I do think that people will listen to this whole being not moved and think, oh, why I've fallen away, or I've done this. I have fallen away at church, like in the building. And so it's not about falling away. It's about knowing what is true. And I may not always make the right decision, but I am not moved in my testimony of what is true.

Tammy 1:11:34

I love it when Nicole said 'I'm not moving from this'. That changed my definition of being not moved. Because 'be not moved' means stoic, straight, I'm not making a step to the right or to the left. But I just wrote that down when you said that. I put that in the scriptures 'be not moved from this'. And you're right. I'm not moving from this. But boy, there's plenty of movement on my path; let's be clear. Sometimes I'm all over the place, but I'm not moving from this. And so that was good, Nicole. Thank you. Well, thank you to Nicole and Tamu. Great discussion today, ladies.

Well, that's it. That's the end of our episode. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Heavenly Father was right. You were who we needed on this episode with Tamu.

Tamu 1:12:17

Absolutely. I trust you now,Tammy.

Tammy 1:12:20

Thank you. You'll do this again, for me at 5am?

Tamu 1:12:23

Um Hmm?, Yeah.

Tammy 1:12:28

You can go home and go back to bed now. Well, take a minute ladies to just kind of gather your thoughts and look over everything we discussed today and just kind of share what your takeaway was.

Nicole 1:12:37

I think my takeaway is definitely when we were discussing the wheat and tares. It just opened up my mind to that parable and I really, really want to explore it more. I really appreciate what was shared. And we are all good seeds. I know that, I know that. So thank you, Tamu, for sharing that.

Tamu 1:13:01

Thank you. Oh, goodness, there's so many things that you said, Nicole, and you Tammy, but I love how you said 'I will not be moved from this'. Like Tammy, I move all over the place. But I will not be moved from this, because this I know is true.

Oh, thank you, both of you for your takeaways. And thank you for being prepared for today. And for the spirit that's been here. And it's just a good feeling like yeah, I feel good about all of this. So thank you for doing that today. Yeah, my takeaway was Tamu, several times you said, 'Thus saith the Lord.' And that really spoke to me. I love how you kept saying that, because when He speaks it is true. And that goes with what you said, Nicole, 'I will not be moved from this.' 'Thus saith the Lord' many times in my life. How can I move away from that?

Tammy 1:13:55

So thank you, both of you for that incredible discussion today. So many good things today. Oh my gosh, this was good, and once again, not even on topic. I mean, we had so many notes we didn't even use. How great is the spirit like 'Nah, this is where you're gonna go.' And I prayed for that and it worked. So, God is good. So, thank you, ladies. Wow, I love you both. Nicole, you can go to bed now.

Tamu 1:14:15

I gotta teach you all this. You keep saying this Tammy. You say 'God is good.' And I'm telling you, you have some listeners that every time you say that they say, "all the time". And you're supposed to come back and say "and all the time", so that they can say 'God is good' as they drive to work.

Tammy 1:14:30

"And all the time".

Tamu 1:14:31

That's the call and response.

Tammy 1:14:32

I think,I didn't know that. I love that: "God is good and all the time. And all the time God is good." Ahhhh, AMEN!! I'm putting that next to, that scripture is in Naham that says 'God is good'. It's an actual scripture. But now I'm going to go back and write 'all the time, and all the time God is good'. Um hmm. Proof. I love it. I love you guys. I love you. I love you, Nicole. Thanks for joining us today. You're awesome.

I mean, after that I'm dying to hear what your takeaway was from this episode. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. Just do it because it's so fun to read what people write throughout the week and what they have questions. And so I try to answer anything I can during the week. Then at the end of every week, usually on a Saturday, we post a call for your big takeaway, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson, and then let us know what you've learned. And I read all of them. It's my favorite part of Sunday.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway because that's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion as well as the glue-ins, which you're going to want for this episode.

The Sunday Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original and it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our fabulous study group participants were Tammy Smith, and Nicole Lolonga, I think I got that right, I hope. You can find more information about these ladies at LDS Living dot comm slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me. It's recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 Studios and our Executive Producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here, we will see you next week. And please remember, you good seeds out there, You are God's favorite.

It's winter time for you. Is that right?

Nicole 1:16:22

Yes. Yes, our winter in Brisbane though looks like rain and it's probably the coldest we've had. It's probably like a five. So whenever it gets in the 20s we're like, oh it's so cold.

Tammy 1:16:39

That's Celsius, right?

Nicole 1:16:41

Yes. I don't know the difference for you guys.

Tammy 1:16:44

Oh, neither do I, wish I could do that math. Pi over square, times two, carry the 1. I have no, no idea.

Transcribed by Jenee Uzelac

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