16: “He Will Swallow Up Death in Victory” (Easter)
What do you know about the Jewish week-long celebration of Passover? If your answer is little to nothing, you are going to love this special episode of Sunday on Monday. We are going to discuss the rich symbolism of this Jewish holiday and how it’s linked to the Christian observance of Easter. We’ll also explore what the celebration of Passover has to do with the ordinance we participate in every week—the sacrament. So grab your scriptures, and let’s dig into this special episode of Sunday on Monday.
Seder = Order or Arrangement
Significant Events That Occurred During Passover:
Luke 2:41–49 (Jesus at 12 years old teaching at the temple during Passover)
John 2:13–17 (Jesus cleanses the temple on Passover)
John 6:1–14 (Jesus feeds the 5,000 with loaves and fishes during Passover)
Matthew 26: 17–30 (The last supper during the Passover)
Doctrine and Covenants 20:1 (The Church was organized during Passover)
“Could it have been possible that Jesus was teaching these older and formally trained men about the meaning of the Passover just celebrated? Would it have surprised them that one so young and seemingly inexperienced would have known so much about the meaning of that fateful night in Egypt so long ago and so far away? Would they have been amazed at his knowledge of the lamb and the blood and the firstborn and the sacrifice? The scriptures are silent on such questions” (Howard W. Hunter, “Christ, Our Passover,” April 1985 general conference)
“At the first Passover in his ministry, Jesus made his mission known by purifying the temple when he drove from its portals the money changers and those who sold animals” (Howard W. Hunter, “Christ, Our Passover,” April 1985 general conference).
“In the second Passover Jesus manifested his power by the miracle of the loaves and fishes. Christ here introduced the symbols that would later have even greater meaning in the Upper Room. “I am the bread of life,” he said. ‘He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst’” (John 6:35.)” (Howard W. Hunter, “Christ, Our Passover,” April 1985 general conference).
“When Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples . . . ’Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified’” (Matt. 26:1–2.) (Howard W. Hunter, “Christ, Our Passover,” April 1985 general conference).
Matthew 13:33 (Woman with leaven)
Leaven = Hidden
Matzah = Bread without leaven
Cleaning: “Before Passover, the house needs to be cleaned so that all chametz (leavened products) are removed” (Lisa Katz, “10 Easy Steps for Easy Passover Prep,” learnreligions.com)
Photo: Seder Plate
1 Corinthians 5:7 (Christ is the Passover Lamb)
Hyssop: A shrub with purported medicinal properties found in Southern Europe and the Middle East.
Kafar = The root word of the Atonement in Hebrew meaning to cover.
Pesah or Pesach = To passover, to hop or skip or protect
Zerora = Lamb shank bone, symbolizes The Lamb or Jesus Christ.
“Justin Martyr depicted the paschal lamb as being offered in the form of a cross and he claimed that the manner in which the paschal lamb was slaughtered prefigured the crucifixion of Jesus” (Joseph Tabory, Justin Martyr, “The Crucifixion of the Paschal Lamb,” The Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 86, No. ¾, Jan.–Apr. 1996, p. 395)
Beitzah = A roasted or hard-boiled egg that symbolizes life and sacrifices in the temple.
Karpas = Green vegetables that symbolize hope of new beginnings. Dipped in salt water that is a reminder of the tears of joy shed by the Israelites as they were set free from Egypt.
Haroset = A sweet fruit paste made from apples that symbolizes the mortar the Israelites would use for building while enslaved in Egypt.
Maror = Bitter herbs or horseradish that symbolizes the bitterness of the Israelites’ slavery in Egypt.
Doctrine and Covenants 110:13–16 (Elijah visits the Kirtland Temple)
Wine = Symbolizes joy and freedom as well as the blood of the Passover Lamb. It is poured into four cups that represent the promises God made to the Israelites in Exodus 6:6–8. One other cup is used to represent Elijah.
“For devout Jews throughout the centuries, it has been almost as though Elijah never really left. They believe Elijah is an unseen witness at every circumcision ceremony, and during Passover each year Jewish families invite Elijah to enter their home and sit in a seat reserved for him” (Kenneth L. Alford, “I Will Send You Elijah the Prophet," in You Shall Have My Word: Exploring the Text of the Doctrine and Covenants, ed. Scott C. Esplin, Richard O. Cowan, and Rachel Cope (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book).
[The sacrament is] “the most sacred, the most holy, of all the meetings of the Church” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:340).
“Perhaps we do not always attach that kind of meaning to our weekly sacramental service. How ‘sacred’ and how ‘holy’ is it? Do we see it as our passover, remembrance of our safety and deliverance and redemption?
“With so very much at stake, this ordinance commemorating our escape from the angel of darkness should be taken more seriously than it sometimes is. It should be a powerful, reverent, reflective moment. It should encourage spiritual feelings and impressions. As such it should not be rushed. It is not something to ‘get over’ so that the real purpose of a sacrament meeting can be pursued. This is the real purpose of the meeting. And everything that is said or sung or prayed in those services should be consistent with the grandeur of this sacred ordinance” (Jeffrey R. Holland, “This Do in Remembrance of Me” October 1995 general conference).
“Passover is more than just a festival. It is the journey each of us is invited to take from slavery to freedom (Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, “From slavery to freedom: Rediscovering the meaning of Passover, ABC Religion & Ethics, abc.net.au)
I just have to tell you this: I have been looking so forward to this episode ever since I knew we were going to study the Old Testament. And I've been saving this specific topic for this specific lesson, and I can't wait. So I'm going to start out by asking, what do you know about the Jewish week-long celebration called Passover? This is so cool. Did you know that Passover celebration is linked with the Christian observance of Easter? Did you know that Passover begins this coming Friday on April 15th, and last for an entire week? Did you know that Passover is just rich in symbolism, and you're going to love it? And lastly, do you even know why it's called Passover? Because it's a really cool reason.
Well, whatever you do know or don't know, our goal is to know everything well. Okay, almost everything about the Passover, by the time we're done today. This week's Come Follow Me lesson is titled Easter, and we just knew that we had to include Passover. And my two guests today are all about the Passover. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me lesson for this week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall.
Now if you're new to our study group, real quick, we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my friend Jessica Peterson, who is a long-time listener. And, apparently, I owe her a lot of mascara because she's cried several times during the podcast after she's gotten ready for the day. So sorry, Jessica. But I love that she shares great insights with me. So thank you, Jessica.
Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's a little bit different every time and today is different. Now we all know Mandy Green, she's back. Hi, lady.
Mandy Green 1:49
We love Mandy. And we have a new friend: her name is Chelsea Hayden. And boy, Maddie and I already know how much we love her because she knows Hebrew. So it makes me really happy. So Chelsea, tell us a little bit about yourself for our listeners who don't know you.
Chelsea Hayden 2:04
Well, I am a former Seminary and Institute teacher. And I have, I'm a session director for EFYs (Especially for Youth) and FSYs (For the Strength of Youth). And I mostly am a stay-at-home mom right now. But I've spent the last five years learning Hebrew from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. And I have been really passionate about the Hebrew and Jewish holiday of Passover for several decades now. I'm kind of obsessed with it, and it is one of the passions of my life. And I am so super excited to be here to talk about it today.
I'm super excited to have you with us. That's why you're here because I knew I'm going to do Old Testament, like we've got to talk about the Passover. And then how perfectly timed is it that it's the same week as our Easter. And here we are, we're getting ready to celebrate Easter, and we're going to do Passover. So it's gonna be a fun discussion. And then Mandy, of course, knows all things Hebrew and Jewish and
Mandy Green 3:00
uncertified. Inside, there's some really cool stuff. Very, very cool stuff that is going to blow your mind.
Two mind-blowing today.
Guaranteed, guaranteed. And for those of you who are thinking, I don't even know anything about Passover, that's even better. We, we hope you don't, because we want to teach you everything. And if you know about Passover, join the conversation. And if there are cool tidbits of information we don't cover, please go to Facebook and Instagram, and post some things that you know, because we'd love to hear what you think about Passover. And in Chelsea's bio, we're going to include a link because she actually sells Passover kits. So by the end of this episode, if you're interested in doing Passover with your family, go check her out. You're gonna want all this information, and it is just. I do it with my family. I've done it with friends. It's so important, right? Oh, I'm so excited.
Chelsea Hayden 3:34
The best, it is. It's one of those things that as Christians, once you've done it, you're gonna think, “Why have I never done this before?” Because it's so rich with symbolism. It's so good. So good.
It's so good. Well, those are our friends, we have Mandy and Chelsey J. And if you want to know more about my guests, you can read their bios and see pictures of them in our show notes which are found at LDSliving.com/sundayonmonday. So friends, grab your scriptures and your scripture journals, because you're going to take a lot of notes, and let's dig in. So ladies, my first question for us is, what was your first Passover experience? Do you remember it?
Chelsea Hayden 4:27
My first Passover experience was in high school in a seminary class. And all we did was we talked a little bit about the story of the plagues and the Exodus with Moses, and we tasted some of the foods and it was very simple, very basic. It lasted probably 30 minutes, but it was so powerful to me, especially the bitter herbs. We'll probably talk about that many times. But as a high school teenager, I was like, it really started to make things real for me to start seeing ritual and the power that ritual and symbol has when you're not just hearing something or seeing something, but you're using all five of your senses to experience the gospel.
It is, it was so profound for me. And I can still remember like, I can't even eat horsey sauce from Arby's like, I'm gonna be honest, because it reminds me of that. And I've had, I have had bitter herbs of many different kinds. Horseradish to me is, it's my favorite because it's the most potent, and to me that, it just makes this impression on your brain that you don't get when you're just reading a story.
Wow, for sure. Kudos to your seminary teacher that did that. That is awesome. Awesome story. Great. Thank you. Chelsea. What about you, Mandy?
Mandy Green 5:42
My first actual Passover was years ago, I was invited to do one in a ward about Passover. And you know, they needed someone to read the passages. And so Kathy St. Clair, whose husband did so much research on Passover, like I'm going to be using so much of his research, He passed away recently, and she was nice enough to share access to his studies. But he studied Judaism and Passover extensively and had some really amazing insights. Because for me, it was not only celebrating the Passover, but the focus was on the pieces that tie into our own practices and our own faith that I was previously unaware of. And it was mind-blowing. It really was,
Yes, definitely. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy right now. I'm already feeling the spirit. I cannot wait to talk about this. My first Passover experience was at BYU. BYU used to host an annual Passover, you could buy a ticket and go. And I had a roommate who wanted to go, and she asked me, and I was like, whatever, I guess. Like I didn't have anything else to do; I was such a jerk about it cuz I was like, we're not Jewish. Why are we doing this? And I went, and it's the same experience that the two of you have had. You come away going, “Why am I not doing this?” Like it, Holy cow!
Everything about our religion is right here in this meal. And so, I was hooked after that. And I thought, “Oh, I'll go to Passover anytime, you name it.” And so, I've been to several and then I hosted one with Sharon, who's been on the podcast before. We hosted a big one for our ward last year for all the women. And it was amazing. It's just incredible. So we've kind of talked about our first Passover experience. So then why would you tell someone, “Oh, you should study the Passover?”
Mandy Green 7:28
Well, the Old Testament is going to always instruct you about Christ-based. Everything in there is going to teach you about Christ. And there's some really beautiful dimensions about Christ in His last moments that are specifically tied to the Passover that are really quite poignant for me, and I don't, reading through a chapter is different than coming at the text with a new lens and a new way of looking at it. And I think Passover really is going to shine the light in a corner that you may not have gone mentally, and really have you look at it differently.
I love how you just said that Mandy, 100%. Right. Especially the tying it to Christ, because it is, it's all about Christ. So good. What about you, Chels?
Chelsea Hayden 8:13
I think for Christians, the message of Passover is the message of Easter. So sometimes people are like, like Mandy was saying, why would you celebrate this Jewish holiday? or maybe it was, but it's not a Jewish holiday, it's an Israelite holiday. And, and of course, it has changed and grown since it originally started. But the message of Passover is the message of Easter. It is the festival of freedom. It is the festival, the festival that celebrates freedom from bondage, freedom from death, freedom from sorrow, and it's also the holiday that celebrates the freedom too: the freedom that the Israelites had to progress and to heal and to become everything they were meant to be.
And when you see that through a Christian lens, that is what the Atonement was about. It's giving us freedom from the fall, freedom from death, freedom from spiritual bondage, freedom to become like our Heavenly Father. It's all the same things. And it's all because of Jesus Christ. Everything that happened there is so powerful. It's, I read once a Jewish rabbi said that it is an invitation to become free. And that's what the Atonement is. That's what Easter is. It's not just a message of hope and happiness, but it's an invitation that we have an opportunity to participate in.
Hold on, I'm writing that down. I appreciated that you said it's an Israelite holiday, because then after you said that I was like, and we're all from the house of Israel, every one of us. So it would make sense to study this.
Chelsea Hayden 9:39
Just like Jews today, if you go to a Jewish Seder, a Seder meaning the actual Passover service that they hold. One of the most important things about Passover that has to be in every single service is that you approach it as if you were one of the Israelites in Egypt. It's not, oh we're talking about what they did. Everything that you read is about what WE did, what's happening to us. It is uniting them with their ancestors. They are one of those people. And that's something that we do, that we are uniting with our covenant ancestors in worshipping Jehovah and remembering His power to save. It's so powerful. It crosses age, it crosses gender, it crosses all of the boundaries that we might put on things. And we can, I don't know, I just feels cool to be close to the people who are the spiritual forebears of who I am and what I do today.
You can feel Chelsea's passion, can't you?
Mandy Green 10:33
That was freaking awesome.
That was so good. She loves, I can tell; this is so awesome. Okay, so you said the word Seder, which is an important word for us to know. So Passover is one weeklong. And the most important part that you said is this thing called a Seder. So tell us about what is a Seder?
Chelsea Hayden 10:52
A Seder means order. And there are today - for the last couple 1000 years since the temple was destroyed - 15 different steps that a Jewish family will go through: washing hands, eating certain foods, saying certain blessings over certain things. And everywhere in the world you go, they have the same order. And they follow a booklet called a haggadah. And that tells you what the order is. And it gives you a script that you follow word for word that you go through and do everything that it tells you to do.
So when you follow that, it gives you a service that lasts anywhere between two and six hours. Sometimes it goes all night long, depending on what discussion a family has. But they're active things that get children's attention. There are things that you touch, things that you sing, things that you say, things that you stand up and do. And it's very active, but it's a very sacred service. It's fun, it's enjoyable. It's very much geared toward learning. But it's, it's also very sacred.
And when does it happen in this Passover week?
Chelsea Hayden 11:54
Usually the first day of Passover, and some communities also do it on the second day as well.
So that's important for us to know that this week, I want you to think of all of our Israelite brothers and sisters celebrating it on Friday. Friday or Saturday is when this big Passover is happening. And if you choose to do it, that's when you would do it is Friday or Saturday. Well, the cool thing about everything that Chelsea just taught us, is in this meal; there are so many important things. And she said that Seder means 'order' and it does. It's the Hebrew word that means order or 'arrangement' And so there are very specific things that we're going to get into this episode.
But in the next segment, what we're gonna do is we're gonna touch on what Mandy talked about, which is Christ, and how the Passover is significant to Him in His life. And I was surprised by the events in His life that took place on a Passover, as well as the events in our lives as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So we'll talk about that next.
Segment 2 12:44
Let's turn to Exodus chapter 12. And we're going to look at verses 11 and 12. I want us to highlight these verses, and I mentioned in our episode two weeks ago, when we covered this chapter, that we were going to go over Exodus 12, because I said, we're going to save it for the week of the Passover.
So here we are, here's Exodus 12. The Lord comes to Moses, and He says, Listen, before I send the destroying angel, here's what I want all of the children of Israel to do. I need all of the children of Israel to put blood on their doorposts. And here's the specific blood that I need. He gives them these rules. He gives them these specifics about how to do this. And then He calls it something; in Exodus chapter 12, verse 11, is where we get the name for it. And verse 12, and verse 13, and 14 are so important for this whole Passover celebration. So Chelsea, would you please read verses 11 through 13.
Chelsea Hayden 13:35
11 "And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover."
Ooh I like how you read it that way; highlight that: "it is the Lord's Passover." Awesome.
Chelsea Hayden 13:52
Can I pause for one second, please? Where it says the Lord's Passover here, this is talking about the actual lamb - it is the Lord's Passover. But it's also, Passover means 'the lamb', and it means 'the whole festival in general'.
Oh, thank you.
12 "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt, I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 "And the blood shall be for to you a token upon the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt."
I really appreciate it in verse 13, that that's where we get the reason for the Passover, that it will pass over you. So highlight that in verse 13. And then verse 14 is the reason why we do Passover. Go ahead, Chelsea.
Chelsea Hayden 14:42
14 "And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever."
Thank you. Any thoughts on those verses, ladies?
Mandy Green 14:57
I think it's really interesting that it said to "keep it a feast by ordinance". That's not something you run across. I'm trying to think of another example. I don't think that's ever stuck out to me like it did just now,
That one ordinance,
Chelsea Hayden 15:12
Yeah, this is an ordinance at this at this point.
And you will do it forever for the rest of your lives. And they do. That's what I love, they do; so awesome.
Chelsea Hayden 15:22
One of the things that I love so much about these verses is that He talks about if you do these things, then I will pass over you. That's in verse 13. But in 12, it says, I'm going to "pass through the land". So we get to choose, as Israelites, if we are going to be passed over with mercy, or if we are going to be passed through with judgment, that's our choice. The options are both there, depending on what we choose to do about it.
There is some deep symbolism in that because we will be passed over by death -spiritual death - because of the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ. Like there's, that's the symbolism of it. Oh my gosh, I love all these connections. This is really cool. So let's go into Jesus' life, then. Let's see the role that Passover played in His life. In the story where Jesus goes missing, He stays behind to teach in the synagogue, and Mary realizes after they've left, Oh, my gosh, Jesus isn't with us. It was during the Passover that that happened.
And He, I think it's interesting how it was written, that he was only 12 years old, and scholars wonder if he was in the Tabernacle teaching these people about the Passover. Like, could that have been what he was saying? And everyone was amazed that a 12-year-old would have known so much about the Passover and the symbolism and meaning that had just been celebrated. And I think it's really cool.
Howard W Hunter asked this question, "Could it have been possible that Jesus was teaching these older and formally trained men about the meaning of the Passover just celebrated? Would it have surprised them that one so young and seemingly inexperienced would have known so much about the meaning of that fateful night in Egypt so long ago and far away? Would they have been amazed at his knowledge of the lamb and the blood and the firstborn and the sacrifice? The scriptures are silent on such questions", but it just makes us think, like, I think he might have known, right?
Chelsea Hayden 17:10
I, as I, as you read that I thought, “When was it that Jesus learned? Was it during a Passover when he was the child? That, that God taught him about this. Or was it something his mother knew about and taught him about it?” I wonder, because he seems to have known so much by the time, he was 12. And it's fascinating to think that he might have been teaching them about Passover. And of course, they don't know that it's him. But he probably did at that point, if he's teaching them about Passover. It's just fascinating to me.
I know it because now I'm thinking of him sitting at that table, going through all of these prayers, all of the symbols, and the Spirit teaching him saying, That's you. That's you.
Chelsea Hayden 17:49
Oh, can you imagine?
Mandy Green 17:51
And think, think of this epic moment of the Lamb of God in the temple on Passover. What it, I mean, like, that's epic, that is epic. And here he is, as a foreshadowing of what will take place, you know, two decades later. It's still to me, that's really magnificent. And that's part of the training too, I'm sure.
Absolutely. Okay. Here's another episode of the Passover in the Savior's life. This is really cool. Chelsea has this one.
Chelsea Hayden 18:23
First Passover of Christ's ministry, He cleansed the Temple. Jesus made His mission known by purifying the temple when He drove from its portals the money changers and those who sold animals.
Now that's pretty cool. His first Passover in his ministry was cleansing the temple going back to that whole temple thing, Mandy?
Mandy Green 18:43
Mandy, tell us the next one.
In the second Passover, Jesus manifested His power by the miracle of the loaves and fishes. I am the bread of life foreshadows the Passover in the upper room.
Mandy Green 18:59
I do want to say that in the Exodus verses we read it and what I just read from John, anytime you see the words I am, I think that's an echo of the Lord's declaration of who He is - the Great I AM. So that showed up in Exodus, it showed up here. So also pay attention to any time there's a statement of I am.
Oh, such a great point. Thank you. Yes, I agree with Mandy. I totally do. Okay, then we have the very last Passover that Jesus Christ would celebrate, would give the full expression to this ancient celebration in Matthew chapter 26, verses 1-2. When Jesus had finished all these things, He said unto His disciples: "Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified." So that's the, that's the Last Supper.
So when you think of that painting, The Last Supper is Seder. It is the Passover meal that the Savior - that's why I've always, like whenever I meet an artist, I beg them, Will you please paint the Last Supper with women there? Because who do you think cooked the meal? It wasn't men? The women have been busily cooking all day for this Passover; when you find out what was at the Passover meal, you will agree, women were there. And just so we're clear, the scriptures don't say it was only the apostles, his disciples; women were sitting at that table partaking of it.
Mandy Green 20:22
Absolutely. There's no scriptural precedent to say it's all male.
Nope, it's just someone painted it that way. I'd love to see Mary there. And Mary and Mary.
Mandy Green 20:32
Yeah. All the Mary's, Salome,
Salome. Of course, she was there because she'll be at his tomb. I mean, it's amazing. Okay, so at His last Passover, Christ will also be the full expression of that Passover. It's just amazing to me. And then here's another cool thing about Passover that I just think we, as members of the church need to remember, is that the organization of the church - if you go to Doctrine and Covenants section 20 - the date is April 6, 1830. That was the first day of Passover in 1830. So cool. In fact, we know this because we've studied it, but almost all-important dates in our religious belief system in our church happen on really important Jewish festival days. Have you guys noticed that?
Mandy Green 21:33
Chelsea Hayden 21:44
It blows my mind. In fact, sometimes I'll call Mandy or Carly and I'll say, “Did you know that the day Moroni gave Joseph Smith the plates was the same day as Rosh Hashanah? Like, the beginning of that celebration for Yom Kippur?” They're like, “Yeah, yeah, we knew that.” Of course, they knew that. So we have this important day. And then we're going to talk about another important day - Doctrine and Covenants section 110 - also happened at Passover, which will be important as we get on later in this discussion of Passover. So those are some significant things about finding Christ in the Passover. He was heavily involved. He participated in Passover, He grew up with this celebration, and it was about Him.
So I love that connection that we've just made like a little boy, there he is celebrating it every single year. And you don't skip a Passover. Is that correct? Like it's so important. Okay.
Mandy Green 22:11
It'd be like skipping Christmas, would you ever skip Christmas? No.
It's a week-long celebration; for one full week they do this. Do they take off work? I read somewhere that you do take off work, but is that common?
Chelsea Hayden 22:25
There're some places they will not even allow you to work.
It's that important. Like, this is so cool.
Chelsea Hayden 22:31
This is one of the three pilgrimage festivals that the Jews had
What is that path?
Chelsea Hayden 22:34
So people in the surrounding areas, not just in Jerusalem, but all up in the northern area, and all the way down toward Egypt. All of the ancient Near East, I guess. The Jews from all of those areas would descend upon Jerusalem, and Josephus once - he assumed that there would be maybe 2 million people, but I think scholars, they think that might have been an exaggeration - that it was more like hundreds of 1000s of people. I don't think it was a requirement to go to Jerusalem because there's one Passover where Jesus doesn't go to Jerusalem.
But it seems like most people went and so back then, you definitely were taking time off of work. And you were bringing your lamb with you if you had one. And you were bringing your family with you. And you were setting up camp and any place you could go and that's why you have Mary who doesn't have a room to go to. That's what, it may have been around Passover time It's not just people going to be on the census, but because they are there for this huge pilgrimage festival where there is, I guess some kind of an expectation perhaps. Maybe not a requirement, but an expectation that you will be there.
Okay, you just struck upon something that's very cool, because I like how you say, "He may have been born around Passover time". Because there are some scholars who do believe that the day that the church was organized is the day that Christ was born. And some speculate it was, some that it wasn't. But it would make sense if it was. That Mary was then on her way to celebrate Passover, and she happened to be giving birth at the same time. Ah, now that's Christ's first Passover. How cool is that?
Chelsea Hayden 24:06
If you think of it that way - Elder Bednar has talked about and so has Elder Holland - have talked about the shepherds who are in Bethlehem as being the shepherds watching the sheep, the temple sheep, who are going to be the people who couldn't bring their own lambs with them. That here are lambs that you can come, and you can purchase to use as your Passover lambs. And so perhaps those shepherds going to see Jesus were the shepherds of those Temple lambs, of the sacrificial Passover lambs. It's just amazing to me.
Oh, K, that's so cool. There's so much right there that she just said. So. We're gonna dive into that in the next segment because it is just symbol after symbol after symbol. So here's what we have, recap: in Exodus chapter 12, the Lord institute's the Feast of the Passover to help the children of Israel remember when the destroying angel passed over their houses and delivered them from the Egyptians. Then we have the unblemished lambs whose blood was used as a sign to save Israel. And that blood is the symbol of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, whose sacrifice redeemed all mankind. So that along with other symbols are what make up the Passover. So in the next segment, we're going to begin our study of those symbols.
Segment 3 25:16
Okay, here we go. One of the things in Exodus chapter 12 that you'll read about is unleavened bread, and a feast of unleavened bread. So I've asked Mandy to talk to us about that, and about the symbolism of bread. So Mandy, hit it.
Mandy Green 25:30
Okay. So you have this winter wheat that's going to be harvested at this time. But it said that there was unleavened bread because the Israelites had to get out in haste. Right? This is like, you don't have time for anything to rise. But then as I was looking at the Savior's ministry, He's going to talk about leaven in two different ways. We'll get to that. But I wanted to say the week before the Passover, family does this big spring cleaning, and they get rid of any leaven. Now think in your current terms, leaven is a rising agent, right? We would use yeast or something like that to make the dough rise. What is significant that there's no leavening in the house, you're supposed to not have anything, this huge spring cleaning, and
Like they throw away bread, crackers, like anything that would have leaven in it, right?
Mandy Green 26:23
Yeah. Rice Chex, Animal Cookies, crackers.
Chelsea Hayden 26:27
Mandy Green 26:28
I'd be really sad to let those go, because those are awesome. Right?
Chelsea Hayden 26:32
You don't just throw it away, like they cleaned their house out. They are digging in couch cushions, they are getting their pockets cleaned out, going through their cars, like this isn't just, “Oh, there's a loaf of bread, we're going to get rid of it.” This is a big deal.
Mandy Green 26:44
It IS a big deal,
Mandy Green 26:45
Yeah, it's all of it. It's all of it. And then on the Eve of Passover, the family searches the house one last time by the light of a single candle. The father sweeps out the last crumbs with a feather and a wooden spoon and declares any remaining leaven to be null and void and not owned by the family. And then in the daytime, before the Seder, the men will have gone to the mikvah and been cleansed. Now I want to transpose this a little bit rather than talking about it. In those terms, I want you to see how this would relate to you.
In the Passover, they use unleavened bread, and leaven would be something again that makes it rise. And to me, this is a symbol of humility, right? Taking out all of our puffed-upness, all the things that we think make us so great. You'll notice that the bread is covered during the ceremony of the Seder. And particularly when the cups of wine are raised. So there's definitely some serious sacramental imagery that we could talk about with the matzah. And matzah comes from the root word 'to be found'. And we'll talk about that a little bit too.
But what's interesting to me is this whole week of cleansing before, getting rid of the leaven. I think our Sacrament is also set up in a similar way. The Seder plate has a white tablecloth, the bread is broken and covered, and the wine is partaken of. How could spending the week before the Sacrament, getting rid of the leaven in our lives, change how you come at that particular ordinance? And how does this practice of humility make us come at the ordinance differently? I'd love to hear both of your thoughts on that.
Wow, hold on, I'm writing that down. Because we're going to connect this to the Sacrament at the very end. And that's so great for us to be thinking about. But you know, I have to just say Mandy, as you were talking and you said how they go through the house with a candle to find any bits that were left - in my mind I'm thinking of my car when I had little kids and just the smashed up goldfish in the, in the floors. Like, this is a serious job and it's going to be mine. I'm going to have to be out there vacuuming out the car,
Mandy Green 29:06
Our church pews would be doomed from the start.
Oh, geez. I mean, that is so much work – to get rid of that leaven. But I love this connection of getting rid of my puffed-upness throughout the week, that might be even harder. I wish it was so easy as grabbing the vacuum and just like, you know, cleaning myself off. But that gives me a new pause to think about what I need to get rid of before I come into the house of the Lord on Sunday to partake of that bread. That is so powerful.
Mandy Green 29:33
Well, and here's another layer to add to that then: leaven, actually one of the meanings of it, is 'hidden'. So it's an agent. It's a hidden agent that is part of this rising process. So Tammy, I love that you mentioned that because this hidden agent is not something that's so easily identifiable within ourselves sometimes, that we can't see where we're being puffed up or, or prideful. Or even just, the Pharisees did it perfectly. I'm sure their Seder was perfection. And yet the two times it's mentioned - there's twice it's mentioned in the New Testament - the Savior unilaterally condemns and says, "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees".
So this hiddenness that's interwoven into all of the actions, into all the things that are done, that really made me stop and say, “Whoa, this is, this is something that's deep, it's hidden.” And then He had, He uses it in a parable with a woman who uses it in three lumps, and it takes care of everything. I mean, I'm still trying to digest that. So let's look at like, what's the leaven in our lives? What are some things that we could get rid of that are hidden or part of the dough or fabric of our lives that we're unaware of that we could use during the week, so that when we come to an ordinance of Passover or the sacrament, how would that change the ordinance for you?
I'm just struck by this because the Passover is, you said the word matzah earlier for those of you that heard that, that's a bread that they eat with no leaven in it. And for a whole week, they don't eat leaven. So now I'm just like, can you imagine a whole week of no pride? Like a whole week of your family just being like, no pride, totally humble? What does that look like? No sin? Oh, my gosh, my mind is blown with that, when we take that Passover week and apply it to our own lives, HOAH.
Chelsea Hayden 31:36
And I keep thinking, and I really liked that you said that, you know, thinking of the things that make us puffed up. And one of the things that I really like about bread is that it's light and fluffy and airy. And if you take that out, like matzah, unleavened bread, it's not flavorful. It sustains life. But it's not, like it's down to the simple bare essentials. And I think I could see that as God, like, I only need God in my life and focusing on that during the week.
And not all of the things that I that I want to do that are making me feel good for myself. Not that we shouldn't do things that are good for ourselves. But am I really focused on what matters most? Or am I focused on the things that are less important? Because leavening is not life-sustaining; it doesn't make me live any longer. It's the bread parts, it's the water and the and the grain that are going to actually keep me alive. And that's what Christ is as the bread of life and the living water and, and how often do we go to church, and we do all the right things like the Pharisees? They were doing all the right things.
And like you said that it was probably that perfect Passover, the perfect everything, all the steps were being taken care of. But was their heart in it? Were they really allowing it to change them? And how often do I do that? Like I think about Christ and His sacrifice for me as I'm sitting in sacrament meeting. And then do I forget about it all during the rest of the week? Like how much is it in the forefront of my mind? Probably not as much as it should be.
Mandy Green 33:11
Exactly. Because the two ingredients of matzah are flour and water. That's it. So we have the bread of life and the water of life: the bare essentials, which is Jesus Christ, which is actually everything that you need. But rather than being overwhelmed, because I know it's like a female disposition to suddenly think of like the list, the myriad of things. Please, please, please don't, because leavening is one ingredient. And so for me, I think the scriptures were also very instructive and compassionate to say, Pick the one ingredient.
Like pick the one thing and maybe for that week - right now I'm in like the 40 day Lent Catholic thing, right - trying to give up social media, because that is a leavening agent for me, it stirs me up. It makes me rise up, it makes me - I don't know, it's provoking me this year. And so maybe that's not a good thing, right? So for one week, pick one thing. That's it. One ingredient in your life, to remove from your life, and see if you get a clearer picture of the Savior, which is that essential bread of life.
So during the ceremony, you have three pieces of matzah. The middle one is broken in half. And it's important that we notice that we tear that bread; we don't use you know, pretty arranged saltine crackers. The tearing is very important. And it's covered and that is put away as an offering or something that's lost that has to be ransomed later in the meal, which has all kinds of symbolism to the Lord's ransoming and things like that. that. And again, we've got bread being torn, covered, all of these things. And the other part of it is that they used matzah bread because they didn't have time.
That made me think so much of my daily schedule, and all the leavening crap that gets mixed into my daily day. That's leavening, makes it light, fluffy, with gorgeous, but am I taking the time for the two most important ingredients, right? The bread of life, the water of life, and the celebration that they had to make it in haste. If you frame it that way, it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to get rid of the leavening, it's not a bad thing to get rid of all of these just extra, all the extra, all the superfluous, and it makes it beautiful and wonderful.
I mean, who doesn't love a good Challah bread? Eating Challah bread 51 weeks of the year, but for one week, for one week, how can you look at the leavening agents in your life? Maybe it's not pride, maybe it's just that you spend your time on your phone, or you spend your time in self-doubt or thinking of how the ways you make yourself look good externally.
And again, these Pharisees like, externally - they're like the Vogue magazine of spiritual practice. I mean, it looks perfect, it's magnificent. And how much of your spiritual practice is the external? And how can you just dissolve all that leavening and get to the heart of what is at the heart of your spiritual practice? What is at the heart of your Easter, your sacrament, your Passover, any of these beautiful Spring festivals? And to me, that's, that's a big part of what I learned this week about all the things.
Chelsea Hayden 36:57
I just want to applaud. I mean, amazing.
Well, and when Chelsea said it doesn't sustain life, I immediately thought for me, “But bread is so delicious.” Like, it's so yummy. It's so good. And then I thought that it applied to the sins, and I was like, “Oh, I feel that way about some of the things I do.” It's just so yummy. Sometimes, like it's, you know, like, that's why we do it because it feels good. But it's not, like what you just taught me, both of you, is a huge paradigm shift. I will never look at matzah bread the same way again.
And for you to compare it then to when we take out that leaven. And really, it's just flour and water. That's all we really need is Jesus Christ. It's so simple. And it's so easy. And I, you know, matzah bread is hard to digest, too. And it just kind of made me think about, for sometimes for some of us, it is. Like, we don't know how to work it into our everyday lives. And there is a way to do it. If you do it slow and methodically, then there's a way to be able to digest it. And I think that's, it shouldn't be rushed. You shouldn't just be scarfing it down. Like it's, there's a, there's a process for this whole procedure with a matzah bread. Yeah.
Chelsea Hayden 38:06
This is so good. I keep thinking about how we, how Mandy was mentioning that leaven is also used as a good thing in other places, and God isn't telling them, Jehovah's not saying, 'Get rid of leaven completely, but get rid of it long enough that you can put things back in order, that you can, you can make sure that you're focused on the essentials. And then add things back in and you can still have your light fluffy bread. And you can still have leaven. I mean, most Sabbath days, Jews make Challah bread, which has, I mean, it's leavened bread. It is not unleavened bread.
Yeah, it's beautiful, it's delicious.
Chelsea Hayden 38:44
This is what they used most of the years. And it's okay for us to have, it doesn't mean that we have to get rid of everything in our lives forever, and just live like this spiritual monk-like way. But to every once in a while, go through those times where we have like a social media purge, or whatever the purge might be for ourselves where we're cleaning it out and starting fresh, and then adding things in that we want to be in there and making sure that we want them in there and that they're doing good things for us.
Mandy Green 39:09
Yeah, and I love that a leaven was something that started before Passover. So as I chew on my doughnut of, you know distraction, story of my life.
Chelsea Hayden 39:18
Yeah, maybe it's just one thing we can reframe, that's it.
Yeah. Well thank you ladies. Thank you. What a great way to start out this discussion that the Passover week is a reset week for all of us. So kind of take that into consideration this week right now, like this is your reset week. And I think that's a great way to frame what we're gonna talk about now. So that's just one part of the symbols in the Passover week. So in the next segment, we're going to jump into two things the Lord specifically mentions in Exodus chapter 12 that are necessary at every Seder.
Segment 4 39:48
Okay, I'm gonna turn the time over to Chelsea. Chelsea hit it, because I'm super excited about what you're going to introduce us to.
Mandy Green 39:59
Chelsea Hayden 39:59
Alright, we're going to talk about the Seder plate.
Seder plate. We all took a picture
Chelsea Hayden 40:06
We took a picture so you can see that.
Okay, and real quick, if you're wondering where to get a Seder plate, it's spelled s e d e r, and you can just Google it. And I actually found paper ones on Amazon. When Sharon and I hosted a Seder dinner, we just bought them in bulk for our whole ward. So you can have super fancy ones like we have. And we'll put pictures of ours in the show notes because we did take a picture, or you can just go get paper ones.
Chelsea Hayden 40:28
And on this plate, Jews today have, there's a certain place for each piece of emblematic food that some of them you eat, some of them, you just represent things. So I'm going to talk about a few of those
I have a question. And every family has a Seder plate. Like you have to have a Seder plate at a Passover.
Chelsea Hayden 40:44
And they are, like they're often put in like a china cabinet. Like this is a very special, special thing for a family. On the Seder plate, there is, the most important thing is the shank bone. On a lamb it would be the shoulder to the elbow. And the word that's used for that is ZEROAH. And that means both 'arm' and it means it can, it can mean 'strength', it can mean 'outstretched'. And what this bone is a representation of the lamb. The lamb at Passover is the symbol it is Passover. But because there's no temple, Jews today do not sacrifice a lamb. They do not eat lamb during their meal. So they have this bone that represents that.
I went to my butcher and asked for a specific, I said, Can I have a shank bone? And when I was a seminary teacher because I would do this and so I have a shank bone and I just keep it in my freezer. But if you can't find a shank bone, I have, one time I just used a bone. Like, I couldn't find a shank bone.
Chelsea Hayden 41:48
They use chicken bones if they can't shank bones. You can use another bone.
Mandy Green 41:52
There's no flesh involved because I had lamb when I had Passover. Is it not flesh? It's only the bone?
Chelsea Hayden 41:58
Did you eat lamb?
Mandy Green 41:59
Chelsea Hayden 41:59
I think, I think it depends on which Jewish tradition. Some Jewish traditions they don't even eat it as part of their Passover meal. They don't touch it. You don't point to it or anything because
Mandy Green 42:10
Wow, that's so very interesting.
Chelsea Hayden 42:11
you don't want anyone to think that perhaps you are trying to dedicate this as a sacrifice, and they want it to be very clear: this represents the sacrifice. It is not the sacrifice. So the lamb was one of the original three emblems and the name of the symbol teaches what it does. It, it was, the blood of this lamb is what helped the Israelites be passed over and not have their firstborns die as part of that 10th plague. The apostle Paul said in First Corinthians, he said, "Christ, our Passover is sacrificed for us." And that's a very obvious, blatant way for him to just come out and say, Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb. That's who He is.
And so if we look at different things that it says in chapter 12, it talks in verse 3 about every man having a lamb; a lamb for a house. And now it's usually a family of 10 to 20 people will gather together. Of course they don't have lamb today, but it was, you could, families would gather together as extended families, and they would eat this lamb together. And this lamb is a proxy sacrifice. So the Lord is saying, “You are having this lamb, and it will be killed in place of the firstborns, Jesus Christ, being the firstborn of God, both pre-mortally and mortally.” And we know that lambs from the time of Adam have represented Jesus Christ.
And so we have Jesus as the Lamb who was brought to the slaughter. And in verse 5, it explains a little bit of what the requirements are for the lamb. Okay, so the lamb is without blemish, and Jesus Christ was without blemish; he lived a perfect life. He had no broken bones, the lamb couldn't have broken bones. And Jesus Christ, we read the New Testament that he didn't have any broken bones on the cross. The lamb is a male of the first year, so a male in the prime of its life. And it is the best, most valued lamb that the family has, like the lamb that could become the most significant thing for you to sell later or to use to provide for your family.
Like they took their very best, most valued thing. And were going to give this as their sacrifice. It was in verse 8, God says, “You shall eat the flesh of the lamb in that night roast with fire.” And often in, as we talk about things with fire, it has to do with purification and sanctification through the Holy Ghost.
I thought it was interesting because in verse 9 it says you can't boil it. Like it literally has to be roasted. That is so powerful. And again, I like how you compared it to the Holy Ghost, that that baptism of fire kind of, that's so cool.
Chelsea Hayden 45:00
You really like that. First of all, I don't think it would be good to be boiled, but I don't like boiled meat, but roast chicken
I boil chicken in a real hurry when I'm trying to get some dinner together. So I know boiled meat.
Chelsea Hayden 45:13
And it says that you eat it with the unleavened bread and the bitter herbs. But the whole lamb is eaten, in verse 10; nothing can remain until morning. And I love the, I love that there is so much in this about eating. Because when you put something in your mouth, you are internalizing it, you make it a part of you, that is where your energy stems from. And if you think about that as Jesus Christ, like, making Him part of us, and we do that with the Sacrament, we actually eat it. We don't just look at a picture or raise our hand or something like that. We are making Him, covenanting to make Him part of us, allowing Him to be where our energy flows from, and, and what guides all that we do in our lives.
And I think that's so, so powerful, that this was very deliberate, that they were supposed to be thinking about all of these things as they're eating it. This is for Jews, then and now; eating these things is very mindfully done, it's very purposefully done. It's not just putting it in your mouth, which you know, I watch my kids who just put the Sacrament in their mouth, they don't even think twice about it. And sometimes I do that. But I try to stop and really think a little bit more about what that means, that I am covenanting to remember and internalize the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Do you guys want to share any thoughts that you have on the lamb, things that have stood out to you about the lamb?
Mandy Green 46:39
Well, what stood out to me and what we just read was the completeness; there would be no part of the lamb remaining whatsoever. And if there was, it would also be burned by fire. And I think about the Savior's act. And I think about it was an all-in thing, there was no, not one drop, not one, not one hesitation, nothing. It had to be a complete, a whole, all of it had to go in.
And I actually really, I really love that part of it, that there's no part of the Lamb, which I think is also so beautiful for us in the respect that there's no part that wasn't taken so that we can partake of it. That, you know, my sacrifices always have a little leavening held back probably, right? Like it's really difficult to do something completely like that. And for me it just shows the greatness of the Gods in this plan, the magnificence of the Savior in this complete total sacrifice.
Yeah. Well and for me now it adds even more emphasis to the importance of verse 11. Because now it - and you taught us this, Chelsea at the very beginning - "and thus shall ye eat it", (it is the lamb), "with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover." And just the symbolism - it, the lamb - is the Lord's Passover. And just when we apply that word Passover, that the lamb is the Lord's atonement of Jesus, like it's His, it's Him. He is why we are able to return and live again. That's just so cool. Now that verse will never be the same to me again. I'm going to highlight it some more.
Chelsea Hayden 48:39
What I was thinking of as you as you were mentioning that is that, according to the Gospel of John, not the Synoptic Gospels, but according to John, Jesus was hung on the cross between the hours of 3pm and 5pm. And those were the hours that the slaughtering of the lambs was happening in the temple, which is very fitting, that this, the Lamb was being slain as the Passover, at the same time that those symbolic lambs were being slain, and I think that's really powerful.
Mandy Green 49:12
And even how the lamb is slain, Justin Martyr said, "...the Lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the Lamb." And it was said that of course, you would take the crossbar and then you would skewer it through in the fire that way and so with Passover, it's very complete. You'll see that every single part of this this meal has a type of Jesus Christ down to every, the most minute detail like that. The timing, how it's done, with the fire. I mean, I love that you that you taught us that.
That was so good Chelsea, so awesome.
Chelsea Hayden 50:05
There's another piece of this lamb that I think is important for us to talk about, and that is the blood. Because you, they would take the blood of the Lamb. And the Lord said, you need to put it around your doorposts, do it on with hyssop, which is also something we see show up when Christ was on the cross when he's given the vinegar to drink.
I thought it was interesting when I researched hyssop, that they believed that there were, hold on - I wrote the word next to it because I loved it so much. They believed that it had, it was, oh yeah, they regarded it as having purifying properties. That was so cool.
Yes, it was so used for I think healing leprosy.
Chelsea Hayden 51:05
Yep. Yeah. Isn't it cool how they're going to take that to put the blood on the door?
Chelsea Hayden 50:48
They were putting it on the door. And this is what the Lord says that 'this is what is going, it is the blood of the lamb that is going to make the Passover happen for your home. The firstborn will not die.' (It's not actually all of the bitter herbs and everything.) It's 'when I see the blood, I will not, I will pass over you instead of passing through your home.' And so we have this blood, and Leviticus, in Leviticus we learned that the life is in the blood. So the life of this creature is making it so that this Passover can happen. So being an Israelite didn't save them; it wasn't that the Israelites were protected, and the Egyptians weren't. It was the blood of the Lamb.
And the word atonement in Hebrew comes from the root KAFAR, which means to cover. Like, we need to cover ourselves and our sins and our weaknesses with the atonement. And when we do that, then the angels of death and destruction and despair will pass over us just like this angel passed over them. The word PESACH, which means 'Passover', or Pesach. He passed over or He hopped, or he skipped, is also used elsewhere in the Bible for 'He protected'. So not only is the Lord like, He's offering Himself as the sacrifice, but He is also protecting us. Like it's like His blood becomes this, this shield of protection for us. And because of Him, we can be passed over.
Not only can we trust God like the Israelites did, but we have to. Like that is the only way for us to find that real protection and that real safety and deliverance. I just want to share a little bit about Samaritan Passovers very quickly. So Samaritans are cousins to the Jews. We know that they have not had great relationships with them. But Samaritans actually never stopped offering their Passover sacrifices or other sacrifices. They offer them on Mount Gerizim; and they gather their families, their relatives, their friends, they wear their best attire, it's like a Thanksgiving feast. Everyone's just super happy.
The day before, they have these big, huge giant pits that are lined with stones, and they heat them up so that they're really, really hot. And then they put a spit inside. They put the lambs inside, they cover it. So they still have this literal lamb that they use for their feasts. They're not herded, they're not drug in. Individuals, often little children of the family will bring the lambs in, they call them by name. They're patting their heads, they're stroking them, they've been caring for them for several days. They're attached to them, they're affectionate with them. This is their prized possession; they are just now in love with this little lamb. And they are offering this offering to God.
And the throat is slit of the Lamb. And it is the most joyous, exulting moment; they - this is gonna sound a little odd - they take the blood of that lamb, and they smear it on each other's faces. Now remember, the life is in the blood. Western culture? We see it as blood means death. But for them blood means life. This is their way of saying 'this lamb is taking death from us. Its life is protecting us.' And it's just so fascinating to me. I don't know if that's how it was for the Jews, but I think that is such a beautiful picture that they are celebrating the freedom that they have been given because of this lamb that willingly offered its life.
Mandy Green 54:26
Hmm. Can I get in on one of those?
Yeah, I'd totally love to go.
Mandy Green 54:32
I'd love to see that because we do tend to be very somber and yet there's that beautiful element of because of the sacrifice of the Lamb we have tremendous cause to rejoice, to really rejoice and I really love that.
You did an incredible job teaching that, Chelsea.
Mandy Green 54:50
Well, and I don't know if this is the time to say this. But I have a son serving a mission right now in Taiwan and for the Chinese New Year you place strips of red paper with things on them that will protect you from Nian, the chaos monster, at the start of every Chinese New Year. And I was like, Oh my gosh, we're so much more alike than different. I think truth comes through these different cultural lenses. But when I learned more about Chinese New Year, it was the same thing: that you were placing these red stripes around the door. And that would keep this monster, this monster of death and destruction and all these horrible things outside. And that red is a color for luck.
My daughter was in China four months, helping teach English, and you got charged quadruple the money to have red nail polish because red is the sign of luck. And so even in every culture, this idea of the blood, changing it, making it so that good things can happen, that there's it really is the birth of possibility. Everything becomes possible because of that blood. And that is staggering.
Wow. I have so many notes
Chelsea Hayden 56:09
It's truth coming from everywhere. Like truth comes from the same place. It, we can find it everywhere. We are not the only people who have truth.
Mandy Green 56:17
Absolutely. Wow, ladies, that was so good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so we're going to end there. And then in the next segment, we're going to touch upon all the other symbols on the Seder plate, and what you're going to have at this meal.
Segment 5 56:31
Okay, so for those of you who maybe have already paused and looked up the Seder plate, which I hope you did, you're gonna want to see that there are so many other symbols that we have to talk about. So we're gonna turn the time back over to Chelsea and Mandy - she's going to jump in too, and we're going to cover what the rest of the symbols are and what they mean.
Chelsea Hayden 56:48
So, there's an egg on the Seder plate, and it needs to be roasted. And it is a reminder of the additional freewill sacrifice that anciently Jews would offer in addition to a lamb, they could offer something else. It reminds them of the temple, it's a symbol of kind of the circle of life and potential. Because an egg isn't really anything yet, but it has the potential for life. And so it's not actually eaten. But it is a good reminder of, of the other sacrifices that were offered in temples, there. Also on the plate, there are greens; it can be any vegetable that's green, usually parsley or celery is what's used. And it's dipped in saltwater. And this represents, I mean, it's springtime and you think it's March or April is usually when we have Passover. And the cold dark winter is ending, and signs of life are starting to come up. And this green is that symbolism of the hope of new beginnings and it's refreshing. And the Israelites in Passover time, they're getting this fresh start, everything is starting new. And you dip it in salt water, which is, the salt water reminds the Jews and Israelites of the tears that were shed by the Israelites when they were in bondage. And also the tears of joy when they were set free. There is on the Seder plate also CHAROSET, or HAROSET, which is an apple mixture that every family kind of has their own recipe for. It's made to look like mortar, so you chop up nuts, and sometimes raisins, and apples, and you add a little bit of wine to it and makes it look like mortar that the Israelites would have used for their bricks.
It's the most edible thing on the plate. Just FYI.
Chelsea Hayden 58:25
It is SO good.
So good. Follow the recipes you find online, it's delicious.
Mandy Green 58:30
And there' celery dipped in salt water, doesn't taste particularly well.
Chelsea Hayden 58:33
My kids actually like the celery in salt water. They ask for that all year round.
Mandy Green 58:37
Chelsea Hayden 58:38
But I love I love this apple mixture. And so it represents that mortar, and it reminds them of slavery, but at the same time it tastes sweet. And so it's often seen as this 'the bitter sweetness of life'. How there's always hard things, but there's also always hope and always good things that God is giving us. One of the most memorable things on the Seder plate is the bitter herbs that it has in years, centuries past sometimes it was a bitter lettuce, usually romaine lettuce. And again this one is not eaten, but it is another symbol of that bitterness mixed with life at the same time and how those things kind of go hand in hand with each other.
But from about the 1500s on horseradish has been what has been used as often freshly grated, potent, they want it to be potent. It was used, horseradish started because of the prevalence of that route in Eastern Europe. So the Jews started using that. And this tastes bad. Like the worse it tastes, the better your Passover experience is. (laughter) I'm gonna be honest. It is. It's supposed to represent the bitterness of bondage. So it needs to be something that makes you feel bitter. Because remember, we're trying to immerse ourselves in this experience and feel what they felt. And if you have the right horseradish, it will make you cry. And it's this tangible way to remind ourselves of what bondage is and for us that can be our sins and our addictions and our habits.
And if only we noticed as quickly when we've sinned, like what the effect was on our spirit, as we can when we eat that horseradish. Because it is like this instant, “Oh my goodness, I do not want this anymore!” But I think sometimes spiritually we don't; we don't recognize it as soon or we don't think it's having an effect on us. But the same thing is happening to our spirit, from our sins and our addictions as what happens to our mouth when we take this horseradish. And it's, it is very memorable. It is not intended to be the central feature of the Passover, but it’s kind of is one of the most memorable things. So Tammy or Mandy, do you guys remember? Have you had any memorable experiences with the bitter herbs from your Passover Seders?
I always liked using, I've used both. I've used the actual horseradish that I've grated. And then I've used horseradish sauce that you buy in the condiments section. Both are disgusting, I can't stand either one. And it is my favorite's watching my teenage boys when I would teach seminary, and it was almost a dare. Like, who do you know, the strongest kid? And you're right; it is, it brings tears to your eyes. It's so awful. And the kids would laugh. It's just kind of fun. Like I'm thinking of right now, how fun this is. This, the Seder plate is worth having. You could do like a mini-Passover with your family on Easter just to have the kids experience everything on the plate and then teach them a mini lesson of what each thing means and the symbolism in our own lives. Because that horseradish? that stays with you forever.
Chelsea Hayden 1:01:37
It really does. It is, it's really powerful. And
I like how at the beginning you said you can't even eat horsey sauce.
Mandy Green 1:01:45
I love horseradish and horsey sauce.
Chelsea Hayden 1:01:49
Mandy, do you have a hard time eating the bitter herbs? Some people really are like, this is the best you know,
Mandy Green 1:01:54
I have a harder time with the parsley dipped in saltwater. Like to me that's, to me that's very bitter. And yet I was thinking about it, particularly in the context of what's going on today in our world. We, for some reason we tend to think there's guarantees or that life shouldn't have bitterness. And I was just thinking, there's two bitter things on your pass, your Seder plate, which would tell you this is part of mortality. This is part of the experience; this is all, the Savior certainly was not exempt from this, the Israelites were not exempt from this. That salt water is also like this ability to cross over the Red Sea, right? This baptism, this crossing over as well another passing through or over.
And I just, it was just like, I just had the spirit kind of nudge me and say, Bitter, bitter herbs, Mandy. Like that's part of the mortal experience, that's part of what we signed up for. And so you can't take it out of the plate, you can't remove it, you can't make it not an element because it's bitter. And, you know, for that reason, I wish we used wine in our sacrament, because there's a bitterness to it that is unforgettable. And you don't want to gulp down that glass; it's very bitter. And it's, you know, again, we're looking at some symbols of the sacrament. So the bitter cup, you don't get out of the bitterness. It's part of all of this beauty. You don't have beauty without bitterness. And so I kind of like the horseradish part, honestly.
Chelsea Hayden 1:03:25
I will say, Mandy what struck me with what you just shared is I'm looking at my Seder plates that I have. And in the very center of the Seder plate is the name PESACH. And I appreciate so much Chelsea, that you taught us another way to reframe that word, which was 'He protected'. I mean, isn't that so cool? The very center of your Seder plate is a reminder that He protected, amidst all of this yuck, all of this stuff that was a reminder of how bitter it was: the mortar, the egg, the shank bone, all of that. And yet He protected, and He will protect, and He continues to protect. And then that covering about the word of atonement, so I think I like how that's in the very middle as a reminder when you're doing this, that He is there.
Chelsea Hayden 1:04:08
I think too, to take that even a step further, to think about, we think about our bitterness. And how I love that Mandy pointed out, you don't get away from bitterness. It's part of our mortal journey. And I think it can also represent that bitterness that Christ experienced. In Mosiah it says that He suffered more than a human being could suffer except it be unto death, so much that in (Doctrine and Covenants) Section 19, that He himself - like, I love his explanation of the Atonement in his own words - saying that this "......caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore........and would that I would not drink the bitter cup."
Like, He didn't want the bitterness either. He understands what it's like to not want the bitterness but knowing that the bitterness was what was going to save all of us, it made it worth it. And if we can use His atonement, then He continues in Section 19 and says, 'I have suffered these things for all, that you won't have to suffer this much if you repent.' We have to maybe suffer for the effects, but not for the actual sins themselves. If we repent, He will take that bitterness for us. He will eat all of those bitter herbs for us as much as we will let Him.
Wow! Excellent. Excellent job Chelsea. That was so good.
Mandy Green 1:05:32
So beautiful. beautiful.
Beautiful, thank you. Thank you. Okay, so in our last segment then, we're going to touch upon probably what's one of my favorite aspects of Passover, and then the role that wine plays in all of this.
Segment 6 1:05:44
Okay, so here we go. Chelsea's gonna teach us about the importance of the wine. So for those of you don't drink wine, you can use grape juice, I've done that. But Chelsea, tell us why wine is used and the glasses that are poured and all that amazing stuff.
Chelsea Hayden 1:05:59
So in Jewish culture, joy is symbolized by wine in so many of the things, their traditions. It is always a symbol of joy. But in this particular tradition, it also becomes a symbol of freedom, because it is reminiscent of the blood of the Lamb that was painted on the doorposts. So it's a symbol of joy, it's a symbol of freedom. And there are 4 cups that are taken during the Passover Seder. During Christ's day, there were multiple cups. They assume that this tradition had, was in place by the time Jesus was there. These cups represent 4 promises that God made in Exodus chapter 6, verses 6-8 where he said, 'I will bring you out of captivity, I will deliver you, I will redeem you, and I will take you to be my special people.'
And so each time one of those glasses is drunk, there is a special significance of those different ways that God was helping them leave in spiritual ways, in physical ways, becoming not just becoming free, but also becoming His people. And it is very possible that one of these cups was what Jesus used to institute the Sacrament. And it is possible that another the very last of these cups that has taken after the meal, some Jewish scholars believe that that could have been the cup that Jesus said, "Now you're going to drink another cup. And this symbolizes the wine that I will share with you again, when I come in the great Sacrament meeting and Adam-ondi-Ahman. And so there's a lot of significance there as Latter-Day Saints, also potential significance.
Perfect. And we did those two weeks ago. We call them the 'I Will verses' so yeah, I'm so excited like I can, I will versus awesome.
Chelsea Hayden 1:07:50
We talked about 4 cups of wine, but there's actually one more. There is a cup that is poured for a prophet named Elijah. And this cup has a lot of significance for the Israelites.
I love how you just set that up Chelsey, perfect, because we're gonna turn it to Mandy, now and Mandy, tell us about why they have not only a cup of wine poured for Elijah, but they have a whole place setting set out for him. So tell us about that.
Mandy Green 1:08:15
Well, this is where hopefully your mind gets blown. So at the end of the ceremony, everyone shouts Baruchatah Adoni. And then the invitation is to Elijah to come in, because they believe that Elijah would come preceding the Messiah and redeem Israel. So there's this cup set out for Elijah, and the door is opened. And this is a very special goblet. This, these aren't the other 4, like this goblet is really quite magnificent. And in, even in the Hasidic tradition, everyone would fill Elijah's cup with a little bit from theirs, meaning that redemption cannot come until people are united. And the children all like to watch the cup of Elijah. Because if you want to see if Elijah came and took some of a drink of the wine, right? It's kind of this mysterious thing.
But alas, Elijah does not appear. And so the door is shut, and you wait for another Passover, a year. So this has gone unfulfilled for several 1000 years, and then get this: here's where it's super amazing, and where Joseph Smith is going to pull this out of what seems like nowhere. So we have the dedication of the Kirtland Temple in 1836. One week later, on April 3, it is Easter Sunday, it is Passover. And who appears in the Kirtland Temple?
Elijah, the prophet!
Passover actually gets pulled off! And there's a lot more symbolism to this. There's the washing of the feet, there's the partaking of the Sacrament. These are all elements of the Passover as well. We don't have time to talk about these, but to me, it's staggering that by doing this ordinance, doing the Sacrament, the washing of the feet, it is Easter Sunday, it is Passover. It is the lamb that appears and accepts the house.
And think about what we talked about earlier in the podcast about preparing the week before, right? Getting the leaven out, becoming pure, becoming un-elevated, all these different things. Like, all of, all the saints. And I have to say they were part of this, you couldn't just have one person or a presidency pulling this off. All of the saints had so much faith, they were purifying themselves, they contributed blood, sweat and tears. I mean, that process, absolutely you can see in these days with the Kirtland Temple, and in, and then we have Doctrine and Covenants, section 110. Who would like to read verses 13-16 for us?
I will, I love it. So what Mandy just described is recorded in Doctrine and Covenants section 110.
110:13 "After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:
14 "Behold, the time has fully come, which" (Oh, my gosh, I have chills reading this right now) "Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi-- testifying that he, [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come--
15 "To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse---
16 "Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors."
Chelsea Hayden 1:11:51
Right when all of the Jews are like opening their doors, hoping that Elijah will come and usher in this, this messianic era of the millennium, he came. Elijah came.
He did. It's so cool, it's so cool! I thought this was fascinating when I was studying this. It was interesting to know, because my question was, well, why Elijah, though? What's the significance of that? And according to I Kings, this is a tradition that's handed down is that Elijah is the one - I didn't know this -they believe that he visits every circumcision that takes place for all of these Jewish children. And he testifies to the Jewish people. And it's interesting, because according to Exodus 12, you cannot participate in the Passover unless you are circumcised.
And so he attends the circumcision and then they're waiting for him to come back to the Passover as a stamp of approval that everybody - they're all covenant-keeping people, they're all part of the covenant, and that he will then usher in the coming of the Messiah, according to Malachi, chapter 4, verse 5. So that is, that was like, Okay, now that's a cool connection.
Mandy Green 1:12:55
Well, let me read you this. There’re some verses from the Kirtland Temple dedication from the (hymn) "Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning" that we do not currently have but were used at this dedicatory session.
"We'll wash, and be wash'd, and with oil be anointed
“Withal not omitting the washing of feet:"
(The washing was part of the Passover ceremony, definitely the Last Supper)
"For he that receiveth his PENNY appointed,
“Must surely be clean at the harvest of wheat." (Which we touched on)
"Old Israel that fled from the world for his freedom
“Must come with the cloud and the pillar, amaine.
“And Moses, and Aaron, and Joshua lead him,
“And feed him on manna from heaven again.”
“We'll sing and we'll shout with the armies of heaven:
“Hosanna, hosanna to God and the Lamb!”
Think about that verse with Passover.
Mandy Green 1:13:53
Let glory to them in the highest be given, Henceforth and forever: amen and amen!"
Brilliant. Oh, that was so good, Mandy. So good. Chelsea, you were gonna add something, what were you gonna say?
Chelsea Hayden 1:14:07
Well I was just thinking about how Mandy mentioned that the Lamb Jesus Christ appeared. Elijah appeared, giving, you know, these extra keys to higher ordinances and covenants than they've had before. Moses appears that day with - and he's a pretty prominent Passover figure - with the keys of the gathering of Israel. And Elias - not sure if that's a name or a title in that case - but bringing the keys of the gospel of Abraham. Like, Passover is all about the covenant people. The gospel of Jesus Christ as restored today is all about the covenant people and the ordinances that we have because of Jesus Christ. And it's just, everything about it, everything about that day was so Passover-related because it was covenant-related, and that's what Passover is.
Ah, that is perfect. Chelsea, I like the way you said that. That is excellent. So let us, oh, go ahead Mandy.
Mandy Green 1:14:59
This, this is just one last thing; it really doesn't tag into anything. But we've talked so much - Chelsea beautifully talked about the protection and the passing over, right? this whole thing about passing over. And all I can picture is the Savior at the Last Supper saying, Arise, let us go forth. And walking through the door out in to meet the Angel of Death, literally, as we are all protected and, and put in a safe space by Him. He walks out and greets it; He drinks the better cup. He's the one person that does not get passed over. He passes through it so that we can be passed over.
And I always think of Him on that night walking down into the Garden of Gethsemane, making this descent and walking through that door right into the face of death, taking it on as the firstborn, as the unblemished, as all of those beautiful things so that the Passover does apply to us, that we can be participants in this Passover.
Chelsea Hayden 1:16:07
I've never thought about Jesus walking through, back through the door, with the lamb's blood on it, and facing that angel.
Mandy Green 1:16:15
I really am unprotected, taking it. Yep.
Chelsea Hayden 1:16:17
That's chills. I love how you just taught us that He passed through it so that we can pass over. Wow. Oh my gosh. Okay, so we're just gonna end with this then really quick, because all of this ties back to us. And we've talked about this several times, because Easter and Passover, they are both great religious commemorations declaring that death will indeed pass over us as Mandy taught us. And, that it could have no permanent power upon us and that the grave would have no victory. And so for us every week as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we have a weekly Passover that we get to celebrate.
And I want us to think about that because I think in my own life, unfortunately, sometimes I have passed over the meaning of this weekly celebration. It is a celebration. I like how President Joseph Fielding Smith called it the most sacred most holy of all meetings in the church. And that is the Sacrament.
We have a great quote from Elder Holland, and Chelsea, will you read this for us? Here's what he has to say about the Sacrament in connection with the Passover.
"Perhaps we do not always attach that kind of meaning to our weekly sacramental service. How sacred and how holy is it? Do we see it as our Passover remembrance of our safety and deliverance and redemption? With so very much at stake this ordinance commemorating our escape from the Angel of Darkness should be taken more seriously than it sometimes is. It should be a powerful, reveling, reverent, reflective moment. It should encourage spiritual feelings and impressions. And as such, it should not be rushed. It is not something to get over so that the real purpose of Sacrament meeting can be pursued. This is the real purpose of the meeting. And everything that is said or sung or prayed in those services should be consistent with the grandeur of this sacred ordinance."
Thank you so much. I want us to just kind of sit with this then and think about it as we prepare to take the Sacrament this Sunday. There's a great article by Elder Suarez in this month's Liahona, in April Liahona. And it's called "Always Remember Him". I highly recommend taking the time to read that because here's what's so cool: In Exodus chapter 13, verse 3, this is what Moses says to the people. "...remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt...." Remember this day, and that word remember, and that the Passover is so that they will remember their experience. And then you think of that word in connection with the Sacrament how many times we say, 'remember'. And so this Sunday, just take some time to remember.
And Chelsea beautifully taught this to us from Exodus chapter 6, the "I Will statements". We need to remember that He is taking us for His people, that He's relieving us from bondage, that He is taking us out from under the burden of our sins, that He, we are His. And so think about those, "I will statements" and remember them this Sunday as you take the bread and the water. And Mandy, I like how you taught us that the bread has to be ripped. I mean, the symbolism of the torn bread, the symbolism of the water that we take. It is, I daresay this next Sacrament will be different for all of us, and we will be better because of learning about the Passover. So thank you. Ladies, anything else you have to add? So good.
Chelsea Hayden 1:19:36
I think something that might be helpful to understand is that we have the Last Supper that we view as a Passover Seder. And it is that one night where the ancient ordinance and the future ordinance met with Passover and the sacrament. And the sacrament, it's different actions, but it's the same covenant. It is all about this covenant of safety and protection. It's the same thing. It's not that we're doing something different, with different meanings. We've just simplified it and brought it down to its bare essentials. And it's the same covenant. And so we are continuing to keep this feast as an ordinance forever. And Elder Holland said that it doesn't include a supper anymore, but it is a feast, nevertheless.
I'm so glad you brought that up, Chelsea, because many people might be wondering, why don't we celebrate the Passover? And I love how you just connected the ancient practice with the new practice, that the Savior fulfilled the Passover. And so now this is our Passover. Oh, I appreciate you pointing that out.
Look at what, look at what's not on the sacrament plate: the bitter, the mortar.
Mandy Green 1:20:35
We took out all the leavening
He took care of it.
Mandy Green 1:20:49
He took all the bitter on himself, so what's left? The lamb? Him? The bread and the water? Him? Him, Him, Him.
So good. You're absolutely right. He took away the bitter. Okay, I love that now. Hold, please, gotta write that down. Oh, my gosh. Okay, ladies, well take a moment and think of what your takeaway was.
Mandy Green 1:21:14
Which one? I mean, honestly.
I have a page filled with so many notes. I don't even know. I just want to say the whole episode is my takeaway.
Mandy Green 1:21:24
Well, I think I'm going to go, I have lots and lots of notes. It's just been a beautiful experience. But I love how you quoted a Jewish rabbi saying, "Passover is an invitation to become free." And I think all of us have things that we would like to be become free from, or to feel joy in. I think it goes beyond freedom. I think it's this joy and this rejoicing component that maybe isn't as predominant in our practices, in our ordinances. But I want to ponder that; I want to think about it as the Sacrament is this joyful invitation to become free. And to release all the bitterness and all of the weight, all of the leaven.
I mean, we just have so much we can just expunge and just look at this very simple practice of bread and water, the two, the two sustaining forces of life and maybe get back down to brass tacks.
Yeah, amen. Excellent. I love that quote. Let's make sure we include that in our show notes. Such a good quote, Mandy. What about you, Chelsea?
Chelsea Hayden 1:22:36
So hard for me to even choose. I really liked though what Mandy was saying a few minutes ago about Jesus walking out and knowing what He was facing. And He, He willingly did it. He confronted death, the angel of death and destruction, and sin and Hell, and took the full brunt of that so that we don't have to. So that when we feel like the ancient Israelites, when we feel trapped, or we feel inadequate, or abandoned, or helpless or desperate, He's already been a sacrifice for us. We don't even have to go kill a lamb. We just need to accept what He's already done for us. And it's just so powerful because none of us can do it on our own. They could not have been redeemed on their own from Egypt and we can't be redeemed on our own. We need Him.
And there's just, Passover reminds me of that. Passover reminds me how much I need God. And how much I need Jesus Christ because I can't do this on my own.
Amen. I agree. I'll Amen that, too. Wow, takeaways were so good. My takeaways, I just have so many. I loved Mandy teaching us about bread and leaven. And that whole week. Like that completely shifted my paradigm and the way I've always thought about unleavened bread. So thank you so much for teaching that, Mandy. And Chelsea, I appreciate it when you explained the egg on the plate means the potential of life. That really struck me because I've always really couldn't understand the egg exactly. But then also PESACH that you taught us; it also means 'He protected'. I will never look at my Seder plate the same way again.
And here we are in the midst of all this yuck, and it goes back to the sacrament. Because they have all the bitter herbs and all the yuckiness to remind them of how hard life was, yet He protected. And then on Sunday, when I take that bread and that water, it's a reminder that I am being protected. He covered me; I'm covered. My bitter herbs are gone. And that that whole discussion was awesome. So ladies, thank you. What a great episode. Holy cow! Well, can you, you know what? Good luck to all of you listening. I hope you take the time to maybe look into celebrating Passover.
So go into the BIOS of our guests, you can find information, and Chelsea has so much good information about Passover. So go follow her and find her information. She will just set you on the right course to celebrate this awesome holiday, if you choose to do that. If not, just take the sacrament on Sunday, and that's okay, too. So thanks, ladies. I love you both.
Chelsea Hayden 1:25:19
Thank you so much
That was awesome.
Mandy Green 1:25:21
Love you, that was awesome.
Chelsea Hayden 1:25:24
We need to end with like, "Next year in Jerusalem", or
Oh, I know. Next year in Jerusalem! Totally. That is awesome. It's exactly, oh my gosh, we have to say that. Okay. You know, we just have to end with the way they always end every Passover, let's say together ladies.
Tammy, Chelsea, Mandy 1:25:43
Next year in Jerusalem!
Chelsea Hayden 1:25:46
We should say it in Hebrew!
Tammy, Chelsea, Mandy 1:25:47
Oh, so good. Thank You, ladies. Well, that was incredible. So we would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. I'm sure you have as many as I do, because there's just so many.
Now if you haven't joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go join it so you can just share what you're learning. And it's a great place to ask questions as you study throughout the week. And then at the end of the week, usually on a Saturday, we do post a call for your big takeaway so you can hold on to it and share it on Saturday. Comment to the post that relates to this lesson and let us know what you've learned. Then you can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode which are found at LDSliving.com/sundayonmonday. So go there because that's we're gonna have a link to all of the references that we use, as well as a complete transcript of this entire discussion. So go check that out.
The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our Wow, our fabulous study participants: Chelsea Hayden and Mandy Green. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS Living. com/Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.
Thanks for being here. We will see you next week and you better remember PESACH. He has protected you because you're His favorite.
Chelsea Hayden 1:27:12
I love thinking of Jesus Christ as the living water. But to be able to really think about it as like He literally allowed His blood to be shed and His life to be taken. His life in place of mine. And that visual reminder I think would be really powerful.
Mandy Green 1:27:12
I agree. I agree. I'm all behind it. I'll sign the petition.
Chelsea Hayden 1:27:36
Right. I can imagine the white dresses of the little children and the white shirts. That would be a problem.