22: "Have Ye Experienced This Mighty Change in Your Hearts?" (Alma 5–7)

Segment 1:

What change do the people experience in these verses? 

(Alma 5:7) "Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God."

(Alma 5:11-13) "And according to his faith there was a mighty ^achange wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true... And behold, he ^apreached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their ^btrust in the true and ^cliving God."

(Mosiah 5:2)."And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty ^achange in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do ^bevil, but to do good continually"

How does Alma describe a “change of heart”?

"7 Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the ^abands of death, and the ^bchains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.

"8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not.

"9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the ^achains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did ^bsing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved" (Alma 5:7-9).

Quote: “You may ask, Why doesn’t this mighty change happen more quickly with me? … For most of us, the changes are more gradual and occur over time. Being born again … is more a process than an event” (D. Todd Christofferson, “Born Again,” General Conference, April 2008).

Segment 2:

First question of Alma’s "test: 

"And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye ^aspiritually been ^bborn of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty ^cchange in your hearts?" (Alma 5:14).

Countenance: "Refers to “the general appearance of a person’s face, which often reflects spiritual attitude and state of mind” see "Guide to the Scriptures," churchofjesuschrist.org.

D&C Scripture about "light cleaveth unto light": D&C 88:40 

Quote: “Becoming Christlike is a lifetime pursuit and very often involves growth and change that is slow, almost imperceptible. The scriptures record remarkable accounts of men whose lives changed dramatically, in an instant, as it were: Alma the Younger, Paul on the road to Damascus, Enos praying far into the night, King Lamoni. Such astonishing examples of the power to change even those steeped in sin give confidence that the Atonement can reach even those deepest in despair.

“But we must be cautious as we discuss these remarkable examples. Though they are real and powerful, they are the exception more than the rule. For every Paul, for every Enos, and for every King Lamoni, there are hundreds and thousands of people who find the process of repentance much more subtle, much more imperceptible. Day by day they move closer to the Lord, little realizing they are building a godlike life. They live quiet lives of goodness, service, and commitment. They are like the Lamanites, who the Lord said ‘were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not’ (3 Nephi 9:20; )” (Ezra Taft Benson, “A Mighty Change of Heart,” Ensign, October 1989).

Quote: “We will be judged according to our actions, the desires of our hearts, and the kind of person we have become. This judgment will cause all of the children of God to proceed to a kingdom of glory for which their obedience has qualified them and where they will be comfortable. The judge of all this is our Savior, Jesus Christ (see John 5:22; 2 Nephi 9:41). His omniscience gives Him a perfect knowledge of all of our acts and desires, both those unrepented or unchanged and those repented or righteous. Therefore, after His judgment we will all confess “that his judgments are just” (Mosiah 16:1).” (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Great Plan,” General Conference, April 2020.)

The Righteous Judge:

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a ^acrown of ^brighteousness, which the Lord, the righteous ^cjudge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8).

Greek for "righteous": Dikaios, which also means just, or just in the eyes of God (see blueletterbible.org).

The Sunday on Monday episode with Holly (or HB) that Lori mentions: Lesson 17: “In the Strength of the Lord” (April 27–May 3)

Segment 3:

Learning Exercise: Read Alma 5:16-23 and look for what the day of judgement will look like for those who have repented and experienced a change of heart, and then look at what it will be like for those who do not repent or experience a change of heart.

Link to live "Sunday on Monday" episode that Tammy mentions: "Deseret Book LIVE: The "Sunday on Monday" Study Group's Bonus Dive into the Book of Mormon"

Yom Kippur: The day of Atonement, see chabad.org.

Rosh Hashanah: The Jewish New Year, literally meaning the “head of the year” see chabad.org.

Teshuvah: The Hebrew word for repentance, but the word itself also means "to return." See chabad.org.

Kaphar: The Hebrew word for atonement is kaphar, which means “to cover” (see blueletterbible.org). (Also discussed in Episode 12 of "Sunday on Monday")

In order to be saved, our garments mush be washed white, pure, and clean through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. See Alma 5:21, 24-25.

“Have Place” : Yeshuva, the Lord will literally have us come, enter in, and have place with Him. Yeshuva: to sit down.

Yeshuva: The Lord will have us come, enter in, and "have place" with Him. "Yeshuva" means to come, sitting, rest, settlement, dwelling or session, council. The verb to sit down, is "yashib" (see biblehub.com) (Encyclopedia Judaica, 16 vols. (New York: Macmillan, 1971), 2:208-9; regarding the Yeshivah shel malah or Metivta de-Rakia).

What will it look like when we go in, sit down and “have place” with our Father? 

(Alma 12:34) "Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on ^amercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a ^bremission of his sins; and these shall enter into my ^crest."

(Enos 1:27) "And I soon go to the place of my ^arest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall ^brest. And I rejoice in the day when my ^cmortal shall put on ^dimmortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the ^emansions of my Father. Amen."

Segment 4:

Alma's question about humility: 

"Have ye walked, keeping yourselves ^ablameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently ^bhumble? That your garments have been ^ccleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to ^dredeem his people from their sins?" (Alma 5:27).

How does Alma teach us to be humble? 

Alma 5:28-32

· We must be stripped of pride (Alma 5:28)

· We must be stripped of envy (Alma 5:29)

· We should not mock others or persecute them (Alma 5:30).

Quote: “Humbly submitting our will to the Father brings us the empowerment of God—the power of humility. It is the power to meet life’s adversities, the power of peace, the power of hope, the power of a heart throbbing with a love for and testimony of the Savior Jesus Christ, even the power of redemption. To this end, the Savior is our supreme example of the power of humility and submissiveness. After all, His submitting His will to the Father brought about the greatest, and even the most powerful, event in all of history. Perhaps some of the most sacred words in all the scriptures are simply, “Not my will, but thine, be done” (Luke 22:42)...May a humble and submissive heart be our empowerment from God with all of its attendant blessings is my humble prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” (Richard C. Edgley, “The Empowerment of Humility,” General Conference, October, 2003.

Segment 5:

Quote: “Unlike modern sheepherders, the shepherd always walked ahead of his flock. He led them. The shepherd knew each of the sheep and usually had a name for each. The sheep knew his voice and trusted him and would not follow a stranger. Thus, when called, the sheep would come to him. (See John 10:14, 16.)” (Ezra Taft Benson, “A Call to the Priesthood: ‘Feed My Sheep,’” General Conference, April 1983).

What does Alma teach about "the Good Shepherd" and His voice?

"37 O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are ^apuffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone ^bastray, as ^csheep having no ^dshepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath ^ecalled after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not ^fhearken unto his voice!

"38 Behold, I say unto you, that the good ^ashepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not ^bhearken unto the voice of the ^cgood shepherd, to the ^dname by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd" (Alma 5:37-38).

Excerpt from Because of the Messiah in a Manger by Brad Wilcox: 

“Sam drew our attention to the caves that pockmarked the hills across from us. “These were sheepfolds at night,” he explained. In Christ’s time, shepherds typically tended small flocks of 30 to 50 sheep so they could separate from each other during the day and not overrun the same pastures and water sources.

At night, though, they brought the flocks together to protect them from wolves, jackals, and robbers. Some of the caves held more than 200 sheep. Several shepherds would work together to block the front of a cave with stones, leaving a narrow entrance through which only one or two sheep could pass at a time. The shepherds would then lead the sheep into the fold and rotate guard duty, taking turns sitting so as to block the entrance to the cave while the others slept. Sam said, “The shepherd on duty didn’t just guard the door. He became the door.” No wonder the Savior once said, “I am the door of the sheep” (John 10:7) and “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, . . . the same is a thief and a robber” (John 10:1).

By morning, sheep from different flocks had mixed together. No one knew which sheep belonged to which shepherd until the shepherds took turns standing at the entrance and whistling or calling in their own distinct ways. Then each shepherd’s sheep would recognize his call and come forward. As sheep passed through the narrow entrance, the shepherd would count them and make sure none were missed. Remember how the Savior said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).”

How can we hearken unto the Lord's voice? 

"40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is ^agood cometh from God, and whatsoever is ^bevil cometh from the devil.

"41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth ^agood works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a ^bchild of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him" (Alma 5:40-41).

Segment 6:

Alma’s testimony:

"I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name" (Alma 5:48).

What is the source of Alma’s testimony?

"45 And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I ^aknow of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?

"46 Behold, I say unto you they are made ^aknown unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have ^bfasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of ^crevelation which is in me" (Alma 5:45-46).

Quote: “When a man has the manifestation from the Holy Ghost, it leaves an indelible impression on his soul, one that is not easily erased. It is Spirit speaking to spirit, and it comes with convincing force. A manifestation of an angel, or even of the Son of God himself, would impress the eye and mind, and eventually become dimmed, but the impressions of the Holy Ghost sink deeper into the soul and are more difficult to erase” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions: Volume 2).

Brad Wilcox's Books: 

Because of the Messiah in a Manger

Because of the Christ on Calvary

Tammy 0:00

Are you a good test taker? Or do you sweat and get so anxious at the mere mention of the word "test?" Because this week is the test of all tests, and fortunately, the questions are given ahead of time. And luckily, and thankfully, God is the instructor and guess what guys, he doesn't grade on a curve. All you have to do is answer the questions to the best of your ability, literally, your ability. Today's lesson will go over the test in its entirety as we study Alma chapter five through seven, and I have a pretty good feeling that all of us are going to pass.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the "Come, Follow Me" lesson for the week and really dig into our scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. Maybe you're one of those one and done kind of person and you want to listen all at once, well, you can do that with this podcast, or you can listen to this in segments, one segment per day as you study. Each segment is about 10 to 12 minutes long, and at the the end of the segment, you'll hear a little bit of music. So listen for that and you'll know you're done.

Now, we're still recording in our closets, so I just want everyone to know if the quality seems a little bit like we're in our closets, it's because we are, but we are going to plug along and the COVID is not going to get us down. So this is going to be a lot of fun. Another awesome thing about our study group is that each week we're joined by two of my friends and so today I'm so excited to introduce you to my good friends, Melanie Bullock and Lori Zubeck. Hi, ladies.

Melanie 1:27

Hi, Tammy.

Lori 1:28

Hi.

Tammy 1:29

Oh! Okay. I'm superduper excited, I just have to tell you guys listening how I know Melanie and Lori. Melanie, I mean, our story, it's the most unconventional story ever. Melanie, you were best friends with my husband's first wife who passed away, Michelle.

Melanie 1:46

Yes.

Tammy 1:46

So that's how we met. Now you're my dearest friend. Like I can't believe how well that turned out.

Melanie 1:52

Amazingly well, yes. And I'm so grateful.

Tammy 1:56

Oh, me too. Me too. Because I was so worried, you know, I mean, "Hello, a woman's best friend," I had to get the approval of Mel and I was terrified.

Melanie 2:04

And you did in a big way.

Tammy 2:06

Ah yes. But the one thing we have in common is Del Taco and Diet Coke so...

Melanie 2:11

That's right.

Tammy 2:11

...for life. And then Lori, I know you because you're Mel's older sister, right?

Lori 2:16

I am, and I've heard such wonderful things, so I'm very happy to finally get to meet you.

Tammy 2:21

We're excited to have you on with us. I think this is going to be really fun. Lori, you're coming to us from Delta, Utah. Is that right?

Lori 2:27

I am, the metropolis of Delta, Utah.

Tammy 2:31

Pretty famous for a couple things, pheasant hunting, I only know that because I did that as a child with my family.

Lori 2:37

Chrissy Teigen was supposedly born here, we have a fabulous demolition derby, and our Fourth of July celebration in a small town cannot be beat.

Tammy 2:46

I love that. I'm coming out for that. I love demolition derby. Okay, well, if you guys listening want to find out more information about Melanie and Lori and sees cute pictures of them or their family, go to our show notes which are found at LDSLiving.com/SundayonMonday and you can see some fun stuff and read their bios. So this week's scripture block we are covering Alma chapter five through seven, but we're pretty much going to solely focus on Alma chapter five. Alma five is like this existential life test. There are 50 questions being asked in this chapter. So if that seems like a lot of questions, maybe you need to get some snacks or sharpen your pencil to take this test. So go ahead and pause the podcast, get yourself a drink, whatever you need to take this quiz or test. There are so many questions and there's a whole lot of pondering to do. So friends, grab your scriptures, and let's dig in. Mel and Lori, I want you guys to think back through your life. Is there a time when you have felt a prompting or a desire to make a change in your life, like a move or something different? Was there a time when you were like, "I gotta do something."

Melanie 3:49

Yes, absolutely. Yes.

Tammy 3:51

Tell me about it.

Melanie 3:54

Um, I have had several big changes the last six or seven years. So a little bit of background on me, I have three kids and my husband passed away six years ago, and so that prompted some pretty major life changes for me. I've done a big career shift, I decided to move after being out of Utah for 20 plus years to move back to Utah and kind of start a life all over again. So yes, lots of transitions and lots of new things.

Tammy 4:26

And you were a young widow.

Melanie 4:28

I was 39 yes, and my husband was 42. So yeah, it's been kind of a wild ride.

Tammy 4:35

Big changes. What about you Lori?

Lori 4:38

I don't have nearly anything like a change like that, but about five years ago, I had been teaching in the middle school junior high setting, I had taught language and drama for 27 years, and I was just burned out. So I put in for a transfer and I landed up in second grade, and I thought, "You know what? I have taught these older kids, 150 kids a day, I can so do second grade." I was so humbled and talk about a reality check and a humility check, it's the hardest thing I've ever done, but it was very good. It was a blessing in disguise, I can see now, but oh boy, it was a huge change.

Tammy 5:21

Wow. That is a huge change, high school to second grade. So let's find out what Alma chapter five has to do with this word "change." Everybody go to Alma five, and while you're turning there, I'm going to give you a little bit of background. So remember, Alma has just abdicated the throne of being the head judge, the first Chief Judge, and now he's solely going to be a high priest. And so he begins speaking to the people of Zarahemla in Alma chapter five, and what he's doing is he starts out by reminding all of these people what the Lord had done by delivering their ancestors from physical and spiritual bondage. He's just reminding them of their ancestry and their heritage, and then he encourages them to prepare for this final day of judgment by believing in the Word of God, and evaluating this spiritual condition that they're in. And so let's go to Alma chapter five, verse seven, and read this first verse that he says to them, and then we're gonna go to two other verses. So in Alma chapter five, verse seven, and Mel, will you read that verse for us?

Melanie 6:15

Sure.

"Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them."

Tammy 6:33

Okay, and now let's go over to verses 11, 12, and 13. And will you read those three please, Mel?

Melanie 6:39

Sure.

"Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?"

"And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true."

"And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved."

Tammy 7:10

As we read those verses, what change happened to all these people, to Alma and the people he's speaking to? It was a change of what?

Melanie 7:17

Change of heart.

Tammy 7:19

Yeah, a change of heart. So my question is what do you think that this means, to have a change of heart?

Lori 7:25

This has always been one of my very favorite stories because, you know, I'm sure Abinadi standing before King Noah and all of the wicked priests and things, wondered, "Look at all of the wickedness around me. Am I doing any good? Is anybody listening?" And yet he had no idea what his words were going to do changing one heart, Alma's heart and then Alma the Younger's heart, and he changed the world for so many.

Tammy 7:51

Beautiful, that's a great answer. Mel, what were you going to say?

Melanie 7:55

Much the same as Lori actually. Just that I don't know if he realized how influential he was and how softened their hearts were because of his testimony and because he kept going, and that he didn't get discouraged and stop.

Tammy 8:09

Yeah, I like that a lot. Next to verses 11, 12, and 13, let's put this cross reference because I love this verse of scripture how it describes a change of heart. Put Mosiah chapter five, verse two. And this is a great description of this "change of heart" that the people had experienced and what they did because of this change of heart. Lori, will you read verse two for us?

Lori 8:31

You bet.

"And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

Tammy 8:52

Thank you. Underline in there, what was the effect of having a change of heart in that verse?

Lori 8:58

They had "no more disposition to do evil."

Melanie 8:59

They didn't want to do evil.

Tammy 9:00

Yeah. Well, you're both right. Good job. You know, it's funny because I think of that and I'm like, I can think of one time when I felt that way, and it was a time when I had walked out of a Bishop's office about talking about some things, and I really did, I didn't want to do evil ever. I remember thinking, "I'm not even going to speed driving home, like my slates clean. I'm going to keep it that way forever." I mean, no disposition to do evil, or bad, or anything. Now let's go back to Alma chapter five because we're going to read these three verses, and here's what we're going to do, we're going to take turns reading this and as we each read a verse, so I'll read verse seven, Lori, verse eight, and Mel, read verse nine.

And as we read, I want us to look for Alma's descriptions of what a change of heart is like. Like there's a lot of words and phrases that describe this change of heart in addition to what we read in Mosiah, and as we're doing this, I want you to be thinking, "so a change of heart is like..." and we're going to answer that when we're done. So Alma chapter five verses 7, 8, and 9, and I'll start.

"Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them."

Lori 10:21

"And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not."

Melanie 10:28

"And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved."

Tammy 10:42

Okay, so fill in the blank. A change of heart is like...

Lori 10:46

I would say, the loosening of bands.

Tammy 10:49

What does that mean to you?

Lori 10:51

Like freedom, being set free.

Tammy 10:54

Mmhmm.

Melanie 10:54

I think it's the light how it filled their hearts and that that weight was lifted.

Tammy 10:59

Yes, I agree. I like the part where talks about "their souls were illuminated by light." Anyone who's had a change of heart knows what that looks like, to just have your soul illuminated with light. Yeah, there's a pretty great quote by Elder Christofferson, and here's what he had to say about a change of heart. And Mel, will you read this for us?

Melanie 11:19

Sure.

Tammy 11:20

Because when we think about a change of heart, sometimes we want to have it like an Alma the Younger experience where it's immediate, or, you know, two days later, or whatever, but I like this quote about a change of heart.

Melanie 11:32

“You may ask, Why doesn’t this mighty change happen more quickly with me? … For most of us, the changes are more gradual and occur over time. Being born again … is more a process than an event” (D. Todd Christofferson, “Born Again,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2008, 78).

Tammy 11:43

So let me ask you this, is it helpful to understand that a change of heart happens gradually? Is that a good thing to know?

Melanie 11:50

For me, that's huge because I always feel like I look at other people in the Church that feel... and to me, I feel like they are so far along on this journey, and their these spiritual giants, and I feel like I have a very simple testimony, but I'm on the right path, and I'm getting there. And so I think that's more important to me, so I don't get overwhelmed.

Tammy 12:11

Mel, I'm so glad you shared that because I know you and we've had these conversations, but I think a lot of times we do look at people in our ward or wherever and think, "Oh, there so much further along, or what are they doing that I'm not doing?" And we compare ourselves. We need to give ourselves a little bit of a break and realize that it is a process, and we're all in that process, a continuing process of having a change of heart all the time.

Melanie 12:34

Yep, and that's why I love this podcast because there's so many different people from different backgrounds and different places in that journey, and it's so refreshing to see that everyone doesn't always have it all together, and so this is great yeah. Love it.

Tammy 12:49

Yeah.

Lori 12:49

Well me too. You know, sometimes I think that appearances are so deceiving. Ya know, some people wear their trials and their feelings right on their sleeve, and other people, you would never ever know what they're going through because they paste the smile on and they go through life. So it looks like it might be great, and it looks like everybody might be smooth and so far ahead, but we never know. We never never know what's going on in their world.

Tammy 13:16

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for pointing that out, Lori, I appreciate that. For us to remember that we're all in this change of heart process. Okay, guys, how you feeling?

Melanie 13:25

I'm feeling great.

Lori 13:26

Pretty good so far.

Tammy 13:28

All right, ready for more questions? Because in the next segment, we're going to tackle questions about conversion.

Segment 2 13:41

Segment 2

Tammy 13:43

All right, Lori, you told us you're a teacher. So I have a question for you. Have you ever caught a student cheating?

Lori 13:51

Unfortunately, yes, it happens. You know, I shouldn't have a favorite cheating story because it's not good ever, but I do have one that really, really sticks out. So a few years back, I was still in the middle school and I was teaching eighth grade language arts, and the history teacher and I that year decided that instead of doing one paper for history and one paper for English, we would do a cross curricular and have the kids do one real quality paper and then turn it in for both classes. We had the students do a 10-page research paper on someone who had influenced history. They had to have credible sources, and it had to be in their own voice. So we did a whole lesson on plagiarism, and you know, plagiarism was cheating, it was wrong, don't do it.

So I felt pretty confident going into the papers that everyone knew about plagiarism and it wouldn't happen. So this one student handed his paper in and he had done one on Adolf Hitler. It was pretty good. He actually had spent quite a bit of time on the first five pages. When I got to Page Six, though, I could see some big problems. So I call this student in and asked him if he'd stay after class, and he did. And so he came in and I said, "Well, tell me about your papers."

"Oh, I had a great time. I learned a lot."

"And it was all your own work, right?"

"Oh, yes, yes, I did it all."

And he just insisted that everything was his own work. And I said, "Well, I really, really enjoyed your paper, but you lost me at this point." So I handed it to him, and pretty soon his cheeks just turned red, and he's looking down at his paper and he would not make eye contact with me.

Tammy 15:44

Oh, no.

Lori 15:45

So I gave him a minute, and I said, "Well, help me a little bit. You just lost me here. Can you read this for me?" Nothing. Pretty soon he just starts to shake his head. "No, I can't read it."

"No, I can't read it either. And I think I figured out what the problem was." And he finally looked up at me. And I said, "I can't read German, and you can't read German. Not only is this plagiarism, it's bilingual plagiarism."

Tammy 16:16

He copied and pasted in another link...

Lori 16:18

Yes, he did.

Tammy 16:20

Wow.

Lori 16:22

So you know, but I have to say though, I don't think anyone should be judged too harshly for their middle school years, and he really did turn out okay, but that still, every time I see him, I have to smile.

Tammy 16:34

I like that. I can't believe I didn't think of doing that. Well, for the rest of the questions that we're going to have in this podcast, everyone needs to know you cannot write down the same answer as your neighbor. You just can't because the answer has to be your own work and God's gonna make sure it's your own work. And so we're going to talk about this right now, and we're going to start with the first question based on your own work, so let's go to Alma chapter five, verse 14. Here's our first big question, and I'll read this one, mark this and here's what it says.

"And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

And let me define the word "countenance" for anyone listening because this refers to the "general appearance of a person's face, which often reflects a spiritual attitude or a state of mind." So tell me what your thoughts are.

Lori 17:36

Well, you know, sometimes you can just find people or see people that just have that light about them. And you're attracted to those people because they just have something about them that you want to be near.

Tammy 17:51

Oh, I like that. That's a great scripture in Doctrine and Covenants that says, "Light cleaveth unto light." Go ahead Mel.

Melanie 17:57

That's exactly what I was gonna say. I mean, it's when someone is doing things that they maybe shouldn't be doing, even if you don't see it written on them, you can feel that. There's a reason that you're drawn to some people, and there's a reason that you're not to others. I can't remember who said, on Judgement day you'll be wearing your own judgments with your words and your thoughts and your actions and that you won't, you'll basically be the judge of yourself by what you've done. And I think that's visible with a lot of people.

Tammy 18:29

Yeah. You know what I like both of you said, you both attributed this image and your countenance to actions. You both made that very apparent in your answer, which was so cool because there's this great quote I have in here by Ezra Taft Benson, and I want us to read this because it backs up exactly what you guys just said. Mel, will you read this quote for us?

Melanie 18:47

Sure.

“Becoming Christlike is a lifetime pursuit and very often involves growth and change that is slow, almost imperceptible. The scriptures record remarkable accounts of men whose lives changed dramatically, in an instant, as it were: Alma the Younger, Paul on the road to Damascus, Enos praying far into the night, King Lamoni. Such astonishing examples of the power to change even those steeped in sin give confidence that the Atonement can reach even those deepest in despair. But we must be cautious as we discuss these remarkable examples. Though they are real and powerful, they are the exception more than the rule. For every Paul, for every Enos, and for every King Lamoni, there are hundreds and thousands of people who find the process of repentance much more subtle, much more imperceptible. Day by day they move closer to the Lord, little realizing they are building a godlike life. They live quiet lives of goodness, service, and commitment. They are like the Lamanites, who the Lord said ‘were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not’ (3 Ne. 9:20; )” (Ezra Taft Benson, “A Mighty Change of Heart,” Ensign, Oct. 1989, 5).

Tammy 19:44

Thank you. I underlined three things in there, "goodness," "service," and "commitment." And it made me think of you, Mel, because you shared with us that your husband died six years ago. Tell us how you saw this goodness, service, and commitment in people.

Melanie 19:59

So when my husband passed, it was very sudden, and I remember calling my mom and my sister in Utah, just in tears and telling my sister what had happened. And they were in a movie, they were just walking into a movie, they said, "We will leave in 20 minutes, and we'll be on our way." And so my siblings just dropped everything, drove from Utah to Arizona. I was so overwhelmed, people came, and they brought food, and they cleaned my house, and they took my kids, and I was just completely overwhelmed at the love and people just did whatever they could to help us and it was, I mean, it was really incredible.

Tammy 20:39

Lori, tell me what you're thinking.

Lori 20:41

I'm getting a little emotional. I remember when that happened, and it was such a shock. I felt so bad for Mel but I couldn't go because we were taking my son to the MTC and so it was a sad time. It was a really sad time. You know, with the tragedy that was going on, I mean, here's Mel left with two teenagers and little Liv was what? Two and a half or three?

Melanie 21:06

Yes.

Lori 21:07

And it was the most amazing thing, and I've always, I've always been amazed, and so respect her for this. She has been through some of the hardest things, and yet she has that positive and happy countenance about her.

Tammy 21:22

That is a true statement about Mel. Thank you for sharing those thoughts. I appreciate that. And the beauty in that is by seeing that just little things that we do are what helped us to have his image in our countenance. Like the quote that we just read from President Benson, it's not always big moments that change our hearts, it's little things. And the whole purpose of all of this according to Alma is so that we can receive his image in our countenance, so that when we see him at Judgement Day, we will know him, and he will know us. I want us to read this quote by Elder Dallin H. Oaks, what he said about judgment day because I want to ask you guys, do you think about Judgment Day? Does that ever cross your mind, Mel or Lori?

Melanie 21:22

It does for me, and I've heard people, especially with a lot of the recent COVID things and just all of the craziness in the world saying, "Is this the second coming? Am I ready?" And I've heard people say, "I'm so excited." And I think, "Oh, I'm not, I'm scared," like I gotta get going. I've got things I've got to get done.

Tammy 22:19

I agree. And you know, my daughter, Lily, who's 12, she thinks about it all the time and she really did ask me, "Is this the second coming?" And I was like, "No, I don't think so." But if it were, that's one kid who's ready. Every night at prayers, she really does pray, and she has since she was five since she could pray, she always says, "Please help us be prepared for the second coming." I don't know where she learned that. I don't know why she says it. It kind of scares me a little bit. But she's ready, and she's ready by this litmus test by Elder Oaks. So let's read this quote about Judgment Day. Lori, will you read that for us?

Lori 22:49

“We will be judged according to our actions, the desires of our hearts, and the kind of person we have become. This judgment will cause all of the children of God to proceed to a kingdom of glory for which their obedience has qualified them and where they will be comfortable. The judge of all this is our Savior, Jesus Christ (see John 5:22; 2 Nephi 9:41). His omniscience gives Him a perfect knowledge of all of our acts and desires, both those unrepented or unchanged and those repented or righteous. Therefore, after His judgment we will all confess “that his judgments are just” (Mosiah 16:1).” (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Great Plan”, General Conference, April 2020.)

Tammy 23:23

Thank you. I want to turn to a scripture real quick. Go to second Timothy chapter four, verse eight, because at the end when he said "his judgments are just" that's his name, and I really like this, so turn to second Timothy, chapter four, verse eight.

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

And what's neat about this is that the Greek word for righteous, where it says "he is the righteous judge" is "Dikaios." I guess that's how you say it, but what it means is that "He is just and he is just in the eyes of God." And that's so important that his judgments are just because he is just. Any thoughts?

Melanie 24:08

I just agree with that. I think it's back to everyone being on a different path. I think that especially as LDS women, we have these grand expectations of having to be perfect and having to never have any bumps or slip ups along the way, and I think it's so important to remember that heavenly Father is really more concerned with our growth and our heart and that we're making a conscious concerted efforts, then perfection, and I think that sometimes gets lost.

Tammy 24:40

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. It does get lost.

Lori 24:44

I'm just thinking, I was listening to the podcast, a previous one, but I remember, I think her name was Holly?

Tammy 24:51

Mmhmm.

Lori 24:52

HB?

Tammy 24:53

Oh yeah, HB.S

Lori 24:54

She, I remember her saying that, "Sometimes we just need to have these hard times, we need to have these trials." Like I think she called it a "speed bump." So that we can kind of refocus and we can, you know, stop and think, you know, whether it's an earthquake or a pandemic, or all of these things that are going on. Sometimes we kind of need to stop and say, "No, no, we're not ready for that judgment. And maybe we need to have some time to have a little bit of think time and a little change of heart."

Tammy 25:26

Yes, thank you, Lori, because it seems like to me as I read Alma five, that's what it's filled with, speed bumps. These moments to sort of stop and slow and ask ourselves, "Where are we at?" So Alma so far has now taught us that by experiencing change of heart and being truly converted, we're going to be prepared to stand before God and be judged. And we're going to talk about that day in the next segment.

Segment 3 25:58

Segment 3

Tammy 26:00

For this next part, we are going to do something a little different. I want you to listen to these instructions and then pause the recording so you can do what I'm gonna ask you to do. Mell and Lori, I want you to silently read Alma chapter five, verses 16 through 23. And as you do this, here's what I want you to look for. Mel, I want you to look for what the day of judgment will be like for those that repent and have experienced a change of heart. Lori, I want you to look for what the day of judgment will be like for those who do not repent or experience a change of heart. So go ahead and pause now, read these verses, and then come back and we're going to discuss, and then for those of you who are staying at home, share what you discovered. If you're with somebody, share what you discovered with your family member, or if you're alone, share it with some friends. Another recommendation, write your answers down in your journal.

Okay Mel, what did you find?

Melanie 26:50

As I was reading that, part of that that stuck out to me was in verse 19, where it says, "I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?" And I think that's such a different take on the way that I have looked at it, and I think how amazing that will be to be comfortable and excited to meet him.

Lori 27:14

It made me think of Second Nephi when they were talking about the glorious day when judgment shall be administered to the righteous, and I think that is such a stark contrast from what I normally think. Normally I think, "Oh gosh," I'm like, "I gotta get steppin. I gotta get moving on what I need to be doing." And so I think it made me think a little bit differently as far as trying, making an effort every day, to be where I want to be and not beat myself up over the things that I'm not doing perfectly, and that judgment day, when I have repented and when I am doing things that I should be doing, will be a loving, something that I'll be looking forward to and not be fearing or thinking, "Oh gosh, I remember when I did that," and to have a clear conscience and to be welcomed in and it's almost a polar opposite of what I have thought about judgment day a lot.

Tammy 28:10

Yes, thank you. Lori, I asked you to look for what the day of judgment will be like for those who don't repent or have a change of heart. So what did you find?

Lori 28:18

I'm in verse 18, and it kind of sounds horrifying to me... "You will be brought before the tribunal of God with your soul filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?" If I could go back and redo, I would go back and change a few things in my life, but to have that "remember," and you're not remembering pleasant things, you're not remembering the good, you're remembering that guilt and that remorse. That would sound kind of scary if you don't have that change of heart.

Tammy 29:00

Wow. And the word "remember," I like that you pointed that out. I hadn't even considered that when I read those. Remembrance either way, remembrance good, remembrance bad, what kind of remembrance will you have? This whole discussion by Alma, you know, it's so interesting because you read these verses and you do, you kind of either feel bad or maybe hopeful. It's interesting wherever you're at in your life, but what I like about this sermon that Alma is giving is that he offers us hope. And there is hope in two verses in Alma five that often get kind of looked over. And I want to point these out because I feel like these two verses are so important in this whole process.

So here's what I want to tell you a little bit about... a couple weeks ago, we did a bonus episode of Sunday on Monday, and it was live and we videoed and you got to see it on Deseret Book on their Facebook page, and so I taught a little bit about this Jewish holiday called "Yom Kippur," or others otherwise known as the "Day of Atonement." Here's what you need to know: back in Mosiah when they had the Feast of Tabernacles, and everybody was camping out under their tents, what we didn't talk about was the holiday that preceded that Feast of Tabernacles. 15 days before all the families got under their tents, they began their Jewish New Year, which is called "Rosh Hashanah."

"Rosh" means "head," "Ha" means "the," and "Shanah" means "new year." So it's "Head of the Year" or that's their new year, and it's in the fall. And they begin this holiday, and they spend 10 days preparing and praying that the Lord will forgive them of all their sins, so that on the 10th day, they come before the Lord, praying and begging and fasting for forgiveness that one day in the year. And the word that's associated with the celebration is "teshuva," and in Hebrew, the word "teshuva" means to "return," to turn around and return back to God.

Now at the end of this 10 day Yom Kippur, then the next five days, the families will prepare and get ready for the Feast of Tabernacles. They'll build their tents, then the families will come and live under the tents for this huge festival. And we talked about how the tent is a symbol of "Kaphar," which means to "cover" or a symbol of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. So now they're all living under this really cool covenant that they have. But on day 10, the priests performs rituals and sacrifices. This is kind of cool it's where we get the term "scapegoat." It's the only day of the year when the priest can enter the Holy of Holies where he reconciles the people with God and he's symbolically bringing them back into the presence of the Lord. Now, knowing all of that history is important as we read in Alma chapter five, verse 21. So let's go to verse 21. Mel, will you read that for us?

Melanie 31:38

Sure.

"I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins."

Tammy 31:57

So on the Day of Atonement, five different times during this ritual, the priest will wash himself and he'll put on new white clothing. That is fulfilling that verse, he'll put on a new white garment, symbolizing us being cleansed white and having our garments made pure. Then on the Day of Atonement, he enters the tent, and the people's garments were all made white by the atoning sacrifice of the Lamb. So now we have them the word "teshuva" to "change." And that's what we read in verses 16 through 23. Can you imagine that day? How will you have changed? What have you done throughout your life to prepare to meet him? And then we have this last word, what will happen when we see him? And that is found in verses 24 and 25. So let's read these two verses, and Lori, will you read those for us?

Lori 32:43

You bet.

"I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil."

"Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?"

Tammy 33:16

Okay I'm gonna have you mark two things in these verses. Go back to verse 24, and I want you to highlight where it says, "Can ye have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob," so mark that, especially the "sit down" part. And then in verse 25, go to the part where it says, "Ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven." What's so unique about these two verses that I always read over, I was like, "Oh, that sounds nice. It's probably talking about, you know, metaphorically speaking, we'll all go and sit down." But this is a Hebrew word called "Yeshuva," and it means what that we talked about with the priest, where the Lord will literally have us come, enter in, and sit down down and have place with him and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. "Yeshua" in Hebrew is from the verb "Yeshuv," which means to "sit down" to literally have place. And so these two things are happening, a "Teshuva," to return to Him, and a "Yeshuva," where he says, "Come and sit, have a seat."

Now for those of us who are endowed, we see this model beautifully in the temple. Come, sit down, have place with me, and the priest example, his example about at the end when he goes into the Holy of Holies to reconcile all of us before the Lord. Now I want us to cross reference verse 25 with Alma chapter 12, verse 34 because I want to show you this, this is pretty cool. Alma chapter 12, verse 34, and when we go and sit down and when we have place with him, this is what it will look like or be like: "Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest."

Now next to the word "rest," there's a cross reference because what does that mean? Like when you hear that, "enter into his rest," what do you immediately think of

Lori 35:14

That sounds peaceful and like you would be welcomed and you would belong there.

Tammy 35:20

Mel, what do you think of when you hear the word "rest?" Because I know you'd like some.

Melanie 35:25

I think kind of the same thing. Just that it's peaceful and that it's relaxing and that he's welcome.

Tammy 35:32

Yes. So next to Alma chapter 12 verse 34, let's put Enos 1:27, and we're going to read what Enos has to say about this. Enos 1:27, and Mel, will you read that for us?

Melanie 35:45

Sure.

Tammy 35:46

I want us to know, this is what Enos is saying about the word "rest." Notice this.

Melanie 35:50

"And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen."

Tammy 35:50

This beautiful idea of, "Come in, have place, sit down. I've prepared it for you. Because you teshuva, you now get to Yeshuva." And the idea of this is so beautiful. Because when we think as scary as the Day of Judgment may seem, the beauty is that the Father wants and has provided a way for us to return and to have place and sit down and rest. So this final day of judgment will be this beautiful culmination of his work, and we will truly add to his glory. That's what I love about this day. In Alma chapter 12, verse 34, it reinforces this idea of repenting and not hardening our heart. We can change on our own, or God can intervene. And obviously the goal is to change on our own, but how do we do that? Because change is so so hard. So in the next segment, we're going to talk about a specific word that is crucial to softening our hearts and having a change of heart, and Lori, you mentioned it at the very beginning.

Melanie 37:03

Oh, I did?

Tammy 37:04

You did. Here we go.

Segment 4 37:09

Segment 4

Tammy 37:18

Mel, Lori, here's a tip. Don't ever pray for humility because if you do, it will be the fastest prayer you've ever had answered. I made this mistake. I made this mistake in the MTC circa 1992. I thought I'd like try to be a humble missionary and I'm like, "Heavenly Father, please bless me with humility," wah, wah... the next day, it happened, and it was not pretty at all. So my recommendation is to learn it on your own, you do not need or want God's help in this area. Because Lori, you said it, when you moved from schools, from high school to elementary.

Lori 37:50

Oh yes, yes, yes.

Tammy 37:50

Right? So humbling.

Lori 37:52

It rocked my world over that whole year I thought, "I'm not smart enough to teach second grade." It was just so different.

Tammy 38:00

Cause life will provide us with plenty of humbling experiences.

Lori 38:03

Yes, yes it will.

Tammy 38:04

Mel, you've got a few on your radar there.

Melanie 38:07

Oh, I have been humbled and humbled and humbled, over and over and over, and I think the Lord understands that I'm a very slow learner and I need those lessons over and over and over.

Tammy 38:20

Well let's read what humility has to do with this whole process and this darn test we've been taking. Go to Alma chapter five, verse 27. We're going to read this verse. Lori, will you read that for us?

Lori 38:30

Yes.

"Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?"

Tammy 38:47

Okay, so here's my question. What does being humble have to do with keeping ourselves blameless before God? Let's talk about this.

Melanie 38:55

That's a tough question and I feel like, you know that emoji, the facepalm thing, I feel like that's Heavenly Father with me like almost every day, like, "Oh my gosh, lady, how many times do I need to?" You know, and I feel like I need to be more humble and realize that I don't have it all figured out and that I definitely need a lot more help and learn to rely on that instead of trying to keep fumbling through the same, the same thing by myself. Clearly, I don't do a very good job of it. So I think that's part of it for me, at least.

Lori 39:27

Sometimes I think that I pray for help, and I pray to be humble and I pray to know what I need to do, but I kind of in my own mind, I already got it figured out. Like I kind of know what I need to do, and I know what blessings I need, and I kind of have a schedule in mind. And I hope the Lord has a sense of humor, and just say, "No, Lord, I got this. Let me be the master. I know what you need. I can see and understand more than you can see and understand," and so sometimes I want to be humbled, but sometimes I don't allow him to help me.

Tammy 40:06

Well, yeah, absolutely. It's the human nature, "We got this figured out. I know how this is gonna play out or how it should," right?

Lori 40:13

That's when the humbling comes because we don't see it all, and we have such limited knowledge, we see what's here now, and with so many mortal things around us influencing that, and we don't see the whole picture and we don't see what the Lord is doing to help us through our trials, and I kind of need work on that I think.

Tammy 40:38

You're in luck because in Alma chapter five, verses 28 through 32, Alma is going to actually point out some specific things that we need to be aware of to be humble. And so let's look at them and mark them because there's some things in here I hadn't really considered. So in verse 28, we're going to start and we'll just each take a verse, okay, so Mel, read verse 28, and we'll just go down.

Melanie 40:58

"Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life."

Lori 41:11

"Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless."

Tammy 41:29

"And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions?"

Melanie 41:36

"Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!"

Lori 41:42

"Yea, even wo unto all ye workers of iniquity; repent, repent, for the Lord God hath spoken it!"

Tammy 41:49

So I put next to those verses "how to be humble." And of course, I would have to read the verse that is my own problem because when I read "make a mock of his brother" like yeah guilty... like look at all those things there. I mean, not even all. There's just a few verses of, "What? All right, I won't do that if I need to be more humble." When you saw those, did any of those were you like, "Huh, okay."

Lori 42:14

Well as we read through that, I had underlined and marked "stripped of pride." "Nope." "Stripped of envy." "Oh, maybe had a few problems with that." "Make a mock of thy brother." And you know, sometimes I don't even think about things and pair them up with being humble.

Tammy 42:33

Right? Because they're so easy to do in the world we live in. Here's something that I really appreciated about studying this humility and this word. There's a great quote by Elder Richard C. Edgley, he was the first counselor in the presiding bishopric back in 2003, and I guess I had never equated power with humility. In this conference talk, he does, and so here's what I want us to do. Read this quote, and I want you to notice what power is associated with humility because we're gonna talk about these powers. So I'll read this quote.

And then Elder Edgley went on to finish his talk with this statement.

“Humbly submitting our will to the Father brings us the empowerment of God—the power of humility. It is the power to meet life’s adversities, the power of peace, the power of hope, the power of a heart throbbing with a love for and testimony of the Savior Jesus Christ, even the power of redemption. To this end, the Savior is our supreme example of the power of humility and submissiveness. After all, His submitting His will to the Father brought about the greatest, and even the most powerful, event in all of history. Perhaps some of the most sacred words in all the scriptures are simply, “Not my will, but thine, be done” (Luke 22:42).

“May a humble and submissive heart be our empowerment from God with all of its attendant blessings is my humble prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.” (Richard C. Edgley, “The Empowerment of Humility” General Conference October, 2003.

Mel, Lori, look back at the powers he listed. What effect could just one of these powers have on your life?

Melanie 43:57

I think the biggest one that stood out to me is being submissive. To me what that means is I very much have a one year plan, a two year plan, a three year plan. And I want things to go a certain way, and I've learned the last several years that I need to back off of that and say, "Okay, Heavenly Father, you've got this, you know what I'm supposed to be doing, you know what's best for me," and completely in my heart, letting go of what I think I need and what schedule I want it to happen on, and let him give me the blessings that I need and the faith in him that I need to just accept that what's happening is the way that it's supposed to be, and not trying to plan it and just submitting to that and humbling myself to understand that he knows what he's doing and that I have no idea. And I feel like if I can really submit to that, that there is a certain peace in that. Just knowing that he's always got my back and he does know what I need and that if I open myself up to those blessings, that he'll be there.

Tammy 45:00

And to hear you say that is amazing to me because you've lost your husband. I mean, talk about letting go of someone's idea or plan.

Lori 45:08

Just the one about the power of peace. Sometimes I think as humans, we try and control everything, and there, there's so many things, especially as we've seen recently, there's so many things that we can't control, but if we can just let go of that, and let God kind of be in charge, then that peace and that hope that come, just tremendous blessings.

Tammy 45:31

I absolutely agree with both of you, that power of peace. What I love about what we just talked about, is now we learned that the power of humility empowers us from God to become more converted to him, and then to hear his voice which we'll talk about in the next segment.

Segment 5 45:46

Segment 5

Tammy 45:57

Okay everyone, here's what we're gonna do, something kind of different. So I'm I'm gonna play a voice for you, and I want you to see if you can tell me who it is. Just right when you hear the voice, tell me if you recognize. Okay, here we go.

Lori 46:18

Darth Vader.

Tammy 46:19

Excellent. Very good. How did you know that?

Lori 46:22

Our dad was such a Star Wars fan. How many times have we watched that with our dad, Mel?

Melanie 46:27

Oh a thousand I'm sure.

Tammy 46:30

Very good. Here's an oldie but a goodie. We'll see if you guys know this one.

Who is that?

Melanie 46:41

That's Big Bird.

Lori 46:42

Big Bird.

Tammy 46:43

Big Bird? Are you guys kidding me? No, it's Kermit the frog. Didn't anybody watch the Muppets? Seriously, it's rainbow connection.

Melanie 46:52

Kermit! It's Kermit, of course it's Kermit.

Tammy 46:53

Okay, let's see if you get this one, help a sister out. Here's our last one.

Who's that?

Lori 47:07

Gordon B. Hinckley.

Tammy 47:09

Yes. How did you know it was Gordon B. Hinckley?

Lori 47:13

I have such a place in my heart for Gordon B. Hinckley. I just loved him as a prophet and just seemed... not that I haven't loved them all, but there's just something about him where he was just so unconditionally loving, and kind, and welcoming. I remember watching him meet with, like this will really get you, but Mike Wallace and meeting the world leaders and he was just such a humble, wonderful man and he was like, "Here I am. This is who I am. I am a prophet of the Lord," and I loved him.

Tammy 47:47

Oh, love, love, love him. Yeah. For those of you that got all three correctly, nice job, go on Facebook and Instagram and tell me you won that and you beat these three, but what I think is so great is if you recognize those voices it's because you've heard them, that they're familiar to you. And Alma teaches us about another voice that hopefully will be familiar to all of us. So I want us to read this quote by Ezra Taft Benson to see what he has to say about this voice, and then we're going to go read some scriptures in Alma. Let's read this quote by Ezra Taft Benson. Lori, will you read this for us?

Lori 48:17

“Unlike modern sheepherders, the shepherd always walked ahead of his flock. He led them. The shepherd knew each of the sheep and usually had a name for each. The sheep knew his voice and trusted him and would not follow a stranger. Thus, when called, the sheep would come to him. (See John 10:14, 16.)” (Ezra Taft Benson, “A Call to the Priesthood: ‘Feed My Sheep,’” Ensign, May 1983, 43; see also John R. Lasater, “Shepherds of Israel,” Ensign, May 1988, 74–75).

Tammy 48:36

Let's go to Alma chapter five verses 37 and 38, and we're gonna read what Alma has to say about this word "shepherd," and his voice. Alma chapter five, verse 37 and 38, and I'll read these.

"O ye workers of iniquity; ye that are puffed up in the vain things of the world, ye that have professed to have known the ways of righteousness nevertheless have gone astray, as sheep having no shepherd, notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you, but ye will not hearken unto his voice!"

Mel and Lori, will you look back at verses 37 and 38, and tell me, what must we do to be the sheep of the Good Shepherd?

"Behold, I say unto you, that the good shepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not hearken unto the voice of the good shepherd, to the name by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd."

Melanie 49:33

Put aside vanity and to listen when we're spoken to and to recognize that.

Tammy 49:40

Yeah.

Lori 49:41

I loved in 37 where he said, "Notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you," and we need to hearken unto the voice of the Good Shepherd because if we don't, then we're not the sheep of the Good Shepherd. To me, that was really comforting because has even though we're kind of on our path, and maybe we're having some trouble, you know, with those things we talked about, he's still reaching out to us, he's still calling out to us, and he will continue to do so.

Tammy 50:13

Right. I'm a really visual person and so I'm imagining the shepherd calling out, but he's not calling out just to see how you're doing. Right? What's he doing, when he's calling out to those sheep, what is his endgame? When the shepherd calls his sheep?

Lori 50:26

He wants them to follow.

Tammy 50:27

Yeah, he wants them to come, "Come to me. Follow me." You know, Brad Wilcox shares a really insightful story about this idea of a shepherd in his book called "Because of the Messiah in the Manger," and you can find this book on the Deseret Bookshelf app, and it's such a fun and quick read, so I highly recommend it. But I want you to listen to this conversation that he had with a man named Sam, who was a Palestinian Christian guide, and he taught Brad about shepherds. I'm gonna just read this directly from the book so we can all enjoy this.

Quote: “Sam drew our attention to the caves that pockmarked the hills across from us. “These were sheepfolds at night,” he explained. In Christ’s time, shepherds typically tended small flocks of 30 to 50 sheep so they could separate from each other during the day and not overrun the same pastures and water sources. At night, though, they brought the flocks together to protect them from wolves, jackals, and robbers. Some of the caves held more than 200 sheep. Several shepherds would work together to block the front of a cave with stones, leaving a narrow entrance through which only one or two sheep could pass at a time. The shepherds would then lead the sheep into the fold and rotate guard duty, taking turns sitting so as to block the entrance to the cave while the others slept. Sam said, “The shepherd on duty didn’t just guard the door. He became the door.” No wonder the Savior once said, “I am the door of the sheep” (John 10:7) and “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, . . . the same is a thief and a robber” (John 10:1)

By morning, sheep from different flocks had mixed together. No one knew which sheep belonged to which shepherd until the shepherds took turns standing at the entrance and whistling or calling in their own distinct ways. Then each shepherd’s sheep would recognize his call and come forward. As sheep passed through the narrow entrance, the shepherd would count them and make sure none were missed. Remember how the Savior said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).”

I like this story because think of it, 200 sheep all in the same cave, right? How in the world, and they all recognize their shepherds voice. So let's go to Alma chapter five verses 40 and 41, and we are going to look at what Alma says, "Here are some ways that we can hearken to the Lord's voice." And when we read this, I want you guys to tell me what you marked. Mark in your scriptures ways we can hearken to the Lord's voice. Verses 40 and 41, and Mel, will you read for us?

Melanie 52:41

Sure.

"For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil."

"Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him."

Tammy 53:00

So from the story we just read, and the scriptures that we just read, tell me the connection. Like what are some ways that we can hearken unto the Lord's voice?

Lori 53:09

Well, I think that story was so interesting because you know, 200 sheep are all milling together and then coming to their own Shepherd's signal is pretty amazing, and in our lives, we have so many voices. And yet if we, like the scripture says in 41, "Hearkened unto the voice of the good shepherd and follow Him," then we're going to be okay. But if we hearken unto the voice of the devil, and not unto the voice of our Shepherd, then we're following the devil.

Melanie 53:44

Well, I think it's really easy to start listening to those other voices too, and I think it's really, it's really easy just to start listening to one little thing, and then that builds and you just start pretty soon you're not listening to any of the good things you need to listen to, and you find yourself just slightly off trajectory, and just you just keep going and going. And so I think it's really, you really have to be conscious about what you're allowing in and what you're choosing to pay attention to and what you're choosing to follow.

Tammy 54:12

Yes, what both of you said is so perfect because remember who's talking to us, someone who spent a lot of time listening to a different voice. He didn't know what the good shepherd's voice sounded like, and now he's telling us how to do this. This is what I like about it, is Alma definitely indeed hearkened to the voice of the Lord, he had that experience, we are having those moments where we're hearkening to the voice of the Lord, and Alma's works are good, and he's following the Good Shepherd. So after Alma declares the importance of following the voice, like he did in these verses, after he declares that we have to follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, he then is going to speak about his responsibility as a priesthood leader to testify of Jesus Christ and to preach repentance to these people. And he explained how he knew that his message was true. This is really cool. So he's gonna end his whole sermon with saying, "Now I'm going to tell you why I know these questions were so important and why it's true," and we'll talk about that in the next segment.

Segment 6 55:08

Segment 6

Tammy 55:17

Now, I want to ask you guys a fun question. What's your earliest memory of bearing your testimony?

Melanie 55:22

I think probably at my baptism. I remember my grandparents had come from out of state and I so badly wanted them to be proud of me and to get up and I felt so great from being baptized, and I think that was my very first time for sure.

Tammy 55:39

Oh that's sweet.

Lori 55:42

That's what I couldn't remember too. In fact, I called my mom today. I was like, "I don't remember bearing my testimony," and she's like, "I don't either." So I kind of think mine was too because it just always kind of seemed like the person that had been baptized would bear their testimony. That's what I can remember.

Tammy 56:05

Yes. For me, I remember bearing my testimony as early as I could speak because I was that kid who ran up every fast Sunday. In fact, when I was a little girl, this is a true story, I would say, "Dad, is it Fast Sunday or Slow Sunday?" And finally he was like, "What do you mean 'Slow Sunday?'" Like, "You know, the Sundays where we don't get to bear our testimonies," and he's like, "That's not what..." and he like explained it to me, but it made me laugh because that's what I did, Fast Sunday or Slow Sunday because I was that kid that ran as fast as I could be the first one to bear their testimony. And remember we did it in primary back in the day? Kids didn't get to bear their testimony in Sacrament meeting ever. And so, those sweet primary ladies, I bet they rolled their eyes every time they saw Tammy Uzelac stand up to bear her testimony.

I loved doing it. I loved being on the podium, I loved having a microphone, and I loved hearing my testimony. So when you think about the first time you bore your testimony, and if you haven't ever born your testimony or had that opportunity, don't let that be the thing that makes you check out and think this isn't for you because everyone has a testimony and everyone has something they believe in. And we're going to read what Alma's testimony is in Alma chapter five, verse 48. Let's read that. We're with you, Lori.

Lori 57:12

I have it.

"I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name."

Tammy 57:38

Thank you. Now next to those verses, I wrote "Alma's Testimony" in my scriptures. What I think is so significant about his testimony is the source for his testimony, and that's what I want us to focus on. Let's go and look at verses 45 and 46. They're short and they're perfect. Lori, will you go back and read 45 and 46, and we're going to look for what the source is for his testimony.

Lori 58:02

"For I am called to speak after this manner, according to the holy order of God, which is in Christ Jesus; yea, I am commanded to stand and testify unto this people the things which have been spoken by our fathers concerning the things which are to come."

"And this is not all. Do ye not suppose that I know of these things myself? Behold, I testify unto you that I do know that these things whereof I have spoken are true. And how do ye suppose that I know of their surety?"

"Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me."

Tammy 58:37

Thank you. In those verses, what is his source?

Lori 58:41

The Holy Spirit made it known unto him...

Tammy 58:44

Absolutely.

Lori 58:44

After much fasting and prayer.

Tammy 58:47

Yes. And when you read these, it's kind of easy for you to go, "Oh, well that's because he's a prophet. Of course God's gonna help him out." But I think what's important for us to understand is that every one of us has this. I like how at the end, he says, "That the spirit of revelation which is in me," everybody has that, we all have access to that spirit of Revelation. I want us to read this quote by Joseph Fielding Smith about the experience of having a manifestation or a revelation by the Holy Ghost. And Mel, will you read this quote for us.

Melanie 59:15

“When a man has the manifestation from the Holy Ghost, it leaves an indelible impression on his soul, one that is not easily erased. It is Spirit speaking to spirit, and it comes with convincing force. A manifestation of an angel, or even of the Son of God himself, would impress the eye and mind, and eventually become dimmed, but the impressions of the Holy Ghost sink deeper into the soul and are more difficult to erase” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr. [1958], 2:151).

Tammy 59:38

Thank you. In that quote, what strikes me is when he says, "When it is Spirit speaking to spirit," and I want to know if either one of you have had an experience where that has happened.

Melanie 59:49

I think I had an experience like that shortly after my husband passed away. I had been out of town for a couple of weeks, and when I got home, I noticed that my cat was very sick, and this is a little cat that my husband had given my two and a half year old for Christmas. And I knew she was really sick, I took her to the vet, and the vet said, "She's gonna need a couple months worth of this very expensive medication." And I said, "Okay so, well, Lucy, we had a good run." I wanted to just like stick $20 on the desk and back out slowly, and I thought, "All right, well, maybe I'll let her out the back door or take her to the uncle's farm," you know?

Tammy 1:00:29

Sure.

Melanie 1:00:30

So I got home, and my kids were gone, and I just had a meltdown, and I remember sitting on my stairs and just crying and saying, "Heavenly Father, like something has got to give. I don't have money. This cat cannot die. This will be a huge trauma for my daughter." So I just remember pleading with him and saying, "I don't know what to do, but I need some help." And so I kind of felt bad for myself for a minute, couple minutes cleaning up, and I walked out to the big trashcan at the street, and I had sunglasses on so that people couldn't see that I had been crying. I think I still was like kind of sobby and kind of crying, and I lifted up the thing, the trashcan lid, with this bag full of mess that I had just cleaned up. And I heard this man say, "Excuse me," and I thought, "Oh, great. Now someone's gonna see that I'm crying, how embarrassing." And so I kind of just like turned to him and he said, "I have a strange question for you. I just got a box of medication in the mail for my dogs, and I mistakenly opened a box I thought was for my dogs, and it's actually cat medicine." He said, "I don't know if you have a cat or if you know anyone that has a cat, but I feel bad throwing it away, so maybe you can use it."

I've never talked to this man. We would wave at our garage going up and down, pulling in our driveways. And I knew in that second, in fact, I couldn't even speak, I just said, "Thank you." I think I mumbled something, and I took the medication and I went into the house, and before I opened the bag, I knew the exact dosage it was, I knew that it was two months worth, and I knew that it was going to save my cat. And there is no possible way that was a coincidence. That was the Lord directly helping me and my family, and it was a very sweet tender mercy, and she's still alive, and it is something that I needed. And it seems really trivial that it's a cat, but in that moment, I knew that the Lord was absolutely 100% aware of my needs and my family's needs, and he found a way to provide immediately and I've never had something that was as quick and as striking and undeniable as that.

Tammy 1:02:45

Yeah. Because I'm picturing you crying on those, you know, like you said, you were crying saying, "Heavenly Father, are you kidding me?" That must have been one of the most pure spirit speaking with spirit, prayers you'd offered. Right?

Melanie 1:02:56

Absolutely.

Tammy 1:02:57

And what did that experience do for your testimony?

Melanie 1:03:00

I walked in and I sat on the ground and I started to laugh and I said, "Okay, you win. I'll stop being stubborn. I'll quit trying to figure this out. Thank you for your help, like, I need to listen and thank you for letting me know that you're there," because I knew he was there. I've always known he's there, but to have it so firm and so undeniable. And, you know, it's like a little tap on the shoulder, like, "It's okay. I'm right here. Like I've got you, just let me help you."

Tammy 1:03:26

It's a great example. Thank you for sharing that because I think sometimes, like in my mind, I think it has to be a Joseph Smith experience, spirit speaking to spirit, this huge "Ahh," and sometimes it's just in the mundane every day pleading with God because you need cat medicine moments, that that really witnesses to us and strengthens our testimony. Going back to our discussion about the good shepherd, and how we hear his voice, but what I love about that is that he has numbered every one of us and he has not forgotten any one of us, and Melanie, you might be number 245,000. Lori, you might be number 53 sheep, but whatever number you are, his sheep are numbered, and he is aware of every single one of us, all of our needs, and he will do whatever he can to help us succeed, and those spirit to spirit moments are what he will give us to help strengthen our testimony, and that's what he gave Alma. Alma is going to take his testimony now and he is going to teach people and boy, he's going to need that testimony in the next couple chapters, specifically, when we get into like chapter... oh, wow, 13, 14, and 15. I mean, those testimonies are what are going to get you through some more dark times because they're not over. Those short stories you shared, which I so appreciate, are what are going to help all of us get through this life, or this test that we just got finished taking. So that's the end of our test. Those are our questions. You guys did a great job. I'm really proud of you.

Lori 1:04:54

Well, can we have another question to make up for the Kermit one?

Tammy 1:04:59

Sorry. It'll go down in history, you did not know Kermit the frog's voice. Whatever you guys. So here's what I'm going to ask you, it's the end, and I want to know what was your takeaway from today? What's something that stood out to you or struck you or that you hadn't considered before?

Melanie 1:05:14

That we're doing okay, that we're going to get there, and that we need to be more open to help getting there and not be so stubborn. That's my takeaway.

Lori 1:05:23

I love the sheep analogy, but I just loved in Alma five, verse 37, where it says that, "Notwithstanding a shepherd hath called after you and is still calling after you." And so even when we kind of get in our stubborn times, or I think I know what I need to do and win, He's still calling after us, and He's still inviting us to come and to listen and to have His peace and His help.

Tammy 1:05:52

Yes, my takeaway was when we were talking about voices, and you said, "There's just so many voices out there, like no one It's hard to hear the one because there's so many voices calling," and it hit me, I'm like, "Gosh, there are." There are so many voices, and so it just made me more aware of whose voice I'm listening to. So I appreciate that you pointed that out. I love you guys. This was so great. It was worth every minute. Thank you for being on the podcast.

Melanie 1:06:20

Thanks Tammy.

Tammy 1:06:21

We would love to hear what your big takeaway was. Oh my gosh, sorry, I'm so emotional. Because I was just gonna say, I'm so sorry that Michelle died, but I don't know if I would have ever met you otherwise, Mel, and I love you so much.

Melanie 1:06:31

I know, and I just have to say that I had in my head when Jim called and told me that he was getting married, I thought for sure I'm not gonna like her. And I'm so happy that the first time I sat down with Tammy, I just was like, "Oop. Gone. I love her."

Tammy 1:06:50

I was so scared to meet you. I'm like, "It's gonna be a hard sell. She might not like me, it's Michelle's best friend." And I'm like, I adore you. We're friends.

Melanie 1:06:58

I adore you too. Love you.

Tammy 1:06:58

You too.

We would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. If you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or followed us on Instagram, you totally should because it's a great place to ask questions as you study throughout the week. And I really try to answer anything that I can during the week. And every week at the end, usually on Sundays, we post a call for your big takeaway. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson, I read every single one and I just I really truly love hearing what you guys are learning.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDSLiving.com/SundayonMonday. We will have a link to Brad's awesome books, there's actually two in a series on the Savior, they're called "Because of the Messiah in the Manger" and "Because of the Christ on Calvary," and they're both right here in the Bookshelf app as part of your Plus subscription, but it's also not a bad idea to check out the show notes anyway because that's where we have links to all the references and the transcript of this whole discussion.

Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our awesome study group participants were Lori Zubeck and Melanie Bullock, and you can find out more information about these ladies at LDSLiving.com/SundayonMonday. Our podcast is produced by KaRyn Lay with post production and editing by Erika Free. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week, and please remember you are numbered and you're God's favorite.