37: “Arise and Come Forth unto Me” (September 14–20)

Books Referenced in this Episode:

Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part 3 by Hugh Nibley

The Book of Mormon: 3 Nephi 9–30, This Is My Gospel edited by Monte S Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr.

Jesus the Christ by James E. Talmage

Verse by Verse: The Book of Mormon Part 2: Alma 30–Moroni 10 by D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner

Segment 1:

Quote: "Verse 23: “And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and [you can imagine] there was great mourning; . . . great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness.” This is a terrible part, this dramatic part. Notice again the description of these phenomena. They are not in scientific terms, so they’re quite accurate as they’re reported by [ordinary] people. This is as they would appear to human beings. We’re seeing the whole thing from the human point of view. This is the way it looked—the groanings, the darkness, the terrible thunders, and then the human reaction to it. This is all the human story we’re having here. It doesn’t give us figures. It doesn’t say it was probably 10 or 11 on the Richter Scale, or something like that, or as high as 12 on the Wood-Neuman. That’s what the Assam earthquake was. This is a human story, but notice how we’re involved with our environment here. They’re all mixed into it. It’s part of what happens to us, of course. We feel very personally involved when the earth starts shaking around us. Some of you have been in earthquakes; I’ve been in some pretty bad ones. They cried, “O that we had repented before this great and terrible day [they knew they were guilty], and had not killed and stoned the prophets.” All along they knew they were guilty. Then why would people do such a thing? 3 Nephi 9:1: “And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of the land, crying: Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent" (Hugh Nibley, "Semester 3, Lecture 83," Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part 3).

What happened when the Savior was crucified? 

20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could ^afeel the ^bvapor of darkness; (3 Nephi 8:20).

23 And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and ^ahowling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them (3 Nephi 8:23).

5 And it came to pass in the ^athirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great ^bstorm, such an one as never had been known in all the land" (3 Nephi 8:5).

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth" (3 Nephi 8:17).

Why was there darkness upon the land?

Quote: As Professor Sidney B. Sperry pointed out, the darkness “may possibly be accounted for on the basis that the Spirit of Christ was withdrawn in part from the land (cf D&C 84:45–46; 88:7–13)” (Sidney B. Sperry, quoted by Alvin K. Benson, Book of Mormon (Symposium Series): 3 Nephi 9-30, This Is My Gospel).

Segment 2:

Aretalogy: A form of sacred biography in which a deity's attributes are listed, in the form of poem or text, in the first person (yourdictionary.com).

3 Nephi 9 divided into two parts:

3 Nephi 9:2–12: Woes upon the earth

3 Nephi 9:13–22: Promises and blessings

2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall ^arepent; for the devil ^blaugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen! (3 Nephi 9:2).

Wo: The word wo denotes distress, affliction, or something of an adverse nature. "Wo unto him" simply means that adversity will befall the individual upon whom or about whom the "wo" is spoken (D&C 11:15; 38:6). When used three times, wo means utter destruction or affliction. Wo used three times is used to denote the most possible destruction or affliction.

20 And ye shall offer for a ^asacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I ^bbaptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not (3 Nephi 9:20).

Quote: "The crucified sometimes lived for days upon the cross, and death resulted, not from the infliction of mortal wounds, but from internal congestion, inflammations, organic disturbances, and consequent exhaustion of vital energy. Jesus, though weakened by long torture during the preceding night and early morning, by the shock of the crucifixion itself, as also by intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering such as no other man has ever endured . . . When Christ bowed His head and “gave up the ghost,” and when considered in connection with other recorded details, it points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death—the Lord Jesus Chrsit died of a broken heart" (Jesus the Christ, chapter 35, footnote 35).

20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of ^aheaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none (Psalm 69:20).

Contrite: Crushed in spirit by a feeling of remorse or guilt (see webstersdictionary1828.com).

Cross reference: Mark 14:33-34; Matt. 26:37

Quote: “Real, personal sacrifice never was placing an animal on the altar. Instead, it is a willingness to put the animal in us upon the altar and letting it be consumed! Such is the ‘sacrifice unto the Lord … of a broken heart and a contrite spirit’ (D&C 59:8)” (Neal A. Maxwell, “Deny Yourselves of All Ungodliness,” Ensign, May 1995, 68).

Journal: What does this sacrifice look like for you? What "animal" do you have to place on the alter

Segment 3

4 O ye people of these ^agreat cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I ^bgathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have ^cnourished you.

5 And again, ^ahow oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not.

6 O ye house of Israel whom I have ^aspared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and ^breturn unto me with full purpose of ^cheart.

Cross Reference with D&C 29:2:

2 Who will ^agather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and ^bhumble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

3 Qualifiers for being gathered under Christ's wings:

1. Harken unto His voice

2. Be humble before Him

3. Call upon Him in mighty prayer

Hhen: Hebrew word for grace

Segment 4:

Hugh Nibley called 3 Nephi 11 the "fifth gospel."

Quote: "We have thirty pages of Christ’s words here. That’s more than you find in [any gospel] in the New Testament. I notice you have 28 pages in Matthew, 16 pages in Mark, 21 pages in Luke, and 24 pages in John. But in the Book of Mormon we have 30 pages of Christ’s teachings. We have a better source for the teachings of Christ. Of course, he says I’m going to teach you what I taught them there. It parallels the New Testament quite closely, but very significantly it gives more" (Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Part 3, "Semester 3, Lecture 83").

3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a ^avoice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a ^bsmall voice it did ^cpierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn 

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they ^aunderstood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did ^aopen their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came (3 Nephi 11:3–5).

What did the people have to do to hear the voice?

1. Open their ears

2. Look to the sound

3. Look toward heaven

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my ^aBeloved Son, ^bin whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him (3 Nephi 11:6–7).

Segment 5:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the ^alight and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter ^bcup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in ^ctaking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the ^dwill of the Father in all things from the beginning (3 Nephi 11:10–11).

Tammy's Tear Jar

What are tear jars?

• Roman Emperors collected their tears in beautiful glass vases and then sealed them with wax and then took them to the grieving loved ones who they cried over.
• Collecting tears in a jar, vase or cup was a common practice to the entire Mediterranean area
• 753 BC- before the founding of Rome there were tear cups. They were used to collect the tears of mourners at the death of a loved one. The cup, vase or jar was then corked and saved as a reminder of the life of the one who passed away (see https://www.funforlesstours.com/articles/my-tears/). 

8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy ^abook? (Psalm 56:8)

Tear bottle or jar=bitter cup

Isaiah compares the amount of the bitter cup to a flagon:

24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons (Isaiah 22:24).

Quote: "Flagons were large goat skins filled with water or wine, the cup could represent a flagon of tears so great that no mortal stomach could accommodate it. Or it could represent a tear cup full of tears a symbol of sorrow so great that only one who is possessed with divine power could drink it. The meaning may have been the amount of grief and sorrow you’re asking me to carry is a tear cup larger than I can bear. There was no other way for God’s will; the cup could not pass from him. He drank from the cup of trembling in tears even the dregs of the sinful tears of all humanity and fulfilled his divine mission. In a very literal way Jesus both drank the cup of trembling’s and filled the cup with his tears for the sins of all of God’s creations, truly a bittersweet cup. Put though my tears into thy bottle. Psalms 56:8" (John Lund, "Put Thou My Tears Into Thy Bottle—Psalm 56:8," funforlesstours.com).

Quote: "If He lives to wipe away my tears then I can trust that I live, in part, to cry them" (Laurel Christensen Day, TOFW presentation).

Quote: "Many members, in drinking of the bitter cup that has come to them, wrongfully think that this cup passes by others. In His first words to the people of the Western continent, Jesus of Nazareth poignantly spoke of the bitter cup the Father had given Him (see 3 Ne. 11:11). Every soul has some bitterness to swallow. Parents having a child who loses his way come to know a sorrow that defies description. A woman whose husband is cruel or insensitive can have her heart broken every day. Members who do not marry may suffer sorrow and disappointment. Having drunk the bitter cup, however, there comes a time when one must accept the situation as it is and reach upward and outward" (James E Faust, “A Second Birth”, Ensign, June 1998).

Quote: "There is nothing any of us will ever suffer that our Savior has not also suffered, He descended not only to our condition but below all things (D&C 88:6, 122:8). When we cry out, “But you don’t understand!” he is the only One who actually does understand—all things, and his understanding is accompanied by compassion" (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Verse by Verse the Book of Mormon, Vol. Two, Deseret Book 2011).

Segment 6:
15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and ^adid feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come (3 Nephi 11:15).

How many people went one by one to see Christ?

25 And the multitude did see and ^ahear and bear record; and they know that their record is true for they all of them did see and hear, every man for himself; and they were in number about two thousand and five hundred souls; and they did consist of men, women, and children (3 Nephi 17:25). 

Quote: “Touch was an important element in lasting conversion: the people, one by one, touched his body for two reasons: (1) to know and testify forever that the living Christ is a real, corporeal being, to avoid what later happened to apostates who claim that God is without body, parts or passions; and (2) to experience the wounds of the Atonement—to be personal eyewitnesses of the dramatic, tangible evidence of his pure love" (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Verse by Verse the Book of Mormon, Vol. Two, Deseret Book 2011).

Transcript

Tammy 0:00

Okay, friends, I need to take a deep breath before I share some news with you because I'm so excited. I mean, you've heard of me talk about this person before, but Donald Parry is going to join our study group for a bonus episode. Okay, okay, I can see a few of you thinking, well, who is Donald Parry? And why is Tammy so excited? Well, Donald Parry is a BYU professor, and one of the most amazing Latter-Day Saints scholars and guys, he helped translate the Dead Sea Scrolls, and has written more than 30 books and his newest book, which is so good – it's called 175 Temple symbols and their meanings. And it has completely changed the way I think about the temple because I love looking into meanings and symbols. And what – you know that about me, I love it. I mean, the temple being close right now during COVID, it has taken a toll on all of us, right? And we've all had to stretch just a little bit further, spiritually to get the same insight and renewal that we typically would find in the temple. And so this book has come at a perfect time. And it really isn't a book book, like you're not going to sit and read it like a novel. It's more like a super interesting encyclopedia of incredible symbols and I have used it. Since I've owned this book, I've gone back several times to look up specific things in the temple to find out what this means, according to Don Parry. So whether you're new to the temple, or if you have a ton of temple experience, this bonus episode will bring a lot of depth to your understanding, and what a better time to talk about the temple symbols than a week right after General Conference? So friends, I want you to join us for this bonus episode with Donald Parry on October 5. And as we dig in and learn more about these temple symbols, it's going to enrich both our scripture study and our temple worship. I really think you're gonna like it.

Segment 1 1:38

Segment 1

Tammy 1:39

I was 21 years old, sitting on the top bunk of the bunk bedroom, I was sharing with two of my companions in the MTC when I decided, I think I'm going to read third Nephi Chapter 11. I had been reading the Book of Mormon, and I got to 3 Nephi 11 on that bunk. And after I read it, I looked at my two companions, and I said, I'm not even joking. "You guys. Did you know Christ came to America?" My two companions looked at me and they both said, "Are you a convert?" And I'm like, "Nope! Just never read this part apparently." I don't know where it was during 3 Nephi 11 in all my years of seminary and primary, and they just laughed and I was like, "How did I miss this?" As Elder Holland called it, "The focal point, the Supreme moment in the entire history of the Book of Mormon." How did I miss this? Now, for any of you who are listening, if this is the first time you're hearing of it, you're in really good company, so don't sweat it. But today's discussion is the incredible study of the days, the hours, and the moments leading up to Christ's visit and then his actual appearance to the people on the American continent as found in Third Nephi. Chapters 8 through 11. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, there's something cool about it – you can listen to it all in one hour, which is great. Listen to it, have fun, enjoy. But something unique about this podcast is that it's broken up into six segments, and each segment is about 10 to 12 minutes long, so if you don't have time to listen all at once, you can listen for 10 minutes a day and study your scriptures for 10 minutes a day, which I'm a huge fan of. And at the end of each segment will be a little bit of music, so that you know, that's the end, and you're done. Now another cool thing about this podcast – this is probably my favorite part is I get to have friends join me each week, and each week is going to be different because we have different perspectives from the different people and so today, truly Heavenly Father was like, "This is who you need to have." And it's Liz Hansen and Shauna beard. Hi, ladies

Liz 3:38

Hi

Shauna 3:38

Hello!

Tammy 3:39

Okay. Liz, Shauna, and I have been friends since I moved into this ward, and –

Liz 3:44

We didn't really like her that much when we first met her, but then she kind of grows on you. Like a fungus or something.

Tammy 3:51

Thank you. Sure. Sure.

Liz 3:52

You're welcome.

Shauna 3:53

Liz doesn't like people that take more of the show than she does.

Tammy 4:00

She saw me as competition.

Well I remember the first time I saw Liz, I wasn't even married yet. I was visiting the ward. And you taught Sunday school. This is my favorite Liz story. And you got up to teach Gospel Doctrine. And you were – the first you said to everyone was "Aloha!" And I was like, "What's her problem? She's not even Hawaiian." And then I truly said this in my mind, "I'm like, we will never be friends."

Liz 4:25

I had you saying "Aloha" really soon.

Tammy 4:29

So funny. And Shauna, I've known because she was in the Stake, Primary presidency, and you were in charge of all the conductors and I was one of the primary music conductors. And that's how we got to know each other and I just loved you.

Shauna 4:40

And she was a great show to watch up front with the kids Believe me. Jim might be better, but she was good. Oh, yeah. Jim.

Tammy 4:48

And then Liz and Shauna, you guys have known each other for how long?

Liz 4:51

Well, gosh, 25 years at least, because I moved to Draper, Utah in 1994. And I am not really an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert. Even though it sounds like I'm an extrovert, I just talk a lot. So I'm washing my dishes. And there's this great window in front of my sink and up the walk comes Shauna and the Relief Society president Robin Bonham, and they're there to welcome me to the neighborhood and to the ward. And –

Shauna 5:19

And she tried to hide.

Liz 5:22

And then, you know, we became fast friends immediately. And one of the things that I love the most about Shauna, is that she is not afraid to admit when she's kind of overwhelmed by her family and life and all that stuff. And so when she would do that we would suck on Tootsie Roll pops on the front porch. When life got too real – it was just the best.

Tammy 5:46

That's a great story. I love that. I think it's a gift for people to be that transparent. So Shauna, that's why I love you and your ability to say, "This is hard." It's great. And Liz has been a safe haven for many of us, I will say. Now, for those of you who want to see pictures of my friends and read more information about them, you can check out their bios, they are found in our show notes at LDS Living.com/SundayonMonday. Okay, here we go third Nephi, chapters 8 through 11. And these are some amazing verses of scripture because what I like is Hugh Nibley says, "There are many human points of view in these chapters." Can you even imagine what it must have been like or felt like to live through those moments? And how remarkable is it that this really happened? And it's the pinnacle of the entire Book of Mormon. So friends, grab your scriptures, and let's dig in.

And what's so interesting about today's episode, is that Liz is the lead writer of the Book of Mormon video series that the church has just put out, and the rest will come out next year, which is going to be so cool. So Liz, what I want to know is how did you write Third Nephi chapter eight? Tell me about that.

Liz 6:53

The hard thing about screenwriting – it's kind of like writing a haiku, because you can only write what can be filmed. So you can't write anything that's in the life of the mind, because you can't film it. You can film flashbacks, you can have voiceovers, which we do, but you can't write anything that can't be filmed. So it's really, really tough writing. And we've got these, what we call witness characters that are going to go through the entire season. So we see everything through these people's eyes and how it affects them. Because remember, it's the righteous that were spared. And so seeing these people realize who they are and what is happening, and that, the faith that they've had through all these years, is finally coming to fruition. And I don't even think they realized what it was going to be until he appears there in chapter 11. And it's just extraordinary.

Tammy 7:50

Wow, Liz, thank you for giving us some of that background. That is extraordinary. Shauna, tell me some of the things that stood out to you in chapter eight.

Shauna 7:58

The first thing that comes to my mind is Timpanogos cave in Utah County.

Tammy 8:02

Yeah.

Shauna 8:03

And when they turn off the lights and you're in that cave, and all there is is black. You can't even see your hand in front of your face. And – that just is amazing to me to think that they had that for three hours. Well, and then the vapors came and it was there for three days, but that initial darkness was so black and so deep, and it must have been so terrifying.

Tammy 8:28

What verse is that in?

Shauna 8:30

20, thank you.

Tammy 8:31

Yeah.

Shauna 8:33

Can we read that verse?

Tammy 8:35

Yeah, please do.

Liz 8:36

Do you want me to read it?

Tammy 8:37

Great!

Liz 8:38

"And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel–" And I love that. And I love that as a filmmaker because I could write that, and we can film that. And it's like this smoke, this fog, this – that's, because we've got to be able to have a little light in film so that you can see what's going on. But I just love that how visceral it is.

Tammy 9:11

Well, Liz, let's continue with that because in verse 23 is part of the human point of view. This is the human emotion we were talking about. And Shauna read verse 23 for us.

Shauna 9:19

"And it came to pass that it did last for the space of three days that there was no light seen; and there was great mourning and howling and weeping among all the people continually; yea, great were the groanings of the people, because of the darkness and the great destruction which had come upon them." Like Liz said, it's so easy to visualize that just because, if you've been into a really dark spot, either mentally or spiritually, it's terrifying.

Tammy 9:49

Well and I'm imagining as a mother, because the destruction in verse five, we're in Third Nephi Chapter eight still, in verse 5, it says, "Never had been known in all the land." And then verse 17 says, "And the face of the whole earth became deformed." And as a mom, I'm imagining the destruction so great, then there's darkness, I'm howling and weeping because I'm feeling on the ground for maybe my children. Liz, what were you gonna say?

Liz 10:12

I was gonna say that, again, remember, these are the righteous, and they're terrified. Which tells me that even though the righteous had been spared, they're still going to go through a lot of terror. And as I was reading this again, I remembered back when it was in April or something– just or March just when COVID happened. And we had a little shaker here. And I was like, "Oh my gosh!"

Tammy 10:37

"This is it!"

Liz 10:39

Exactly. "Do I have my 72 hour kit? Yes, I do!"

Tammy 10:44

"Do the clothes still fit me? No, they don't. Rats. I should have taken care of that!"

Well, I want to point out– I think this is so interesting. Talking about this darkness, you know, Professor Sidney B. Sperry, he pointed out that the darkness quote, "May possibly be accounted for on the basis that the Spirit of Christ was withdrawn in part from the land (cf D&C 84:45–46; 88:7–13)” (Sidney B. Sperry, quoted by Alvin K. Benson, "Book of Mormon (Symposium Series): 3 Nephi 9-30, This Is My Gospel"). And I just can't even imagine what that – how that must have felt inside too, like spiritually for everyone. Again, like you pointed out, those are the righteous, they had to have been praying and asking for help, but they are just consumed in this darkness.

Liz 11:19

Nothing works when Christ's spirit is gone.

Shauna 11:23

There is no light. Nowhere.

Tammy 11:24

There is no light.

Liz 11:26

The earth can't even work.

Tammy 11:28

No.

Well and there was so much devastation and destruction in this chapter, and in the next segment, we're going to see who caused the destruction and takes full responsibility for the destruction.

Segment 2 11:40

Segment 2

Tammy 11:50

So I just want to jump right in to Third Nephi Chapter nine. Let's go there, because there's a word that Hugh Nibley attaches with Third Nephi Chapter nine, that completely changes the way that you're going to read this chapter and I love it so much. He calls Third Nephi Chapter nine, an aretalogy. It's spelled "A-R-E-T-A-L-O-G-Y."

I wrote it on the side of Third Nephi Chapter nine, because an aretalogy is a form of sacred biography where a deities attributes are listed, it's either in the form of a poem or a text and it's in first person. So as you read Third Nephi nine, notice all the "I's." "II did this" "I, I, I" And it's so interesting because it's broken up into 18 verses. So verses 2 to verse 12 are 18 verses of woes upon the earth. And then you skip to verse 13 to 22. Those are 18 verses of all the promises and blessings and how you'll get them. And so he has all the words pronounced and then all the blessings and that's how Chapter nine is broken down, and I just think it's powerful because when we look into this, God takes full responsibility. And he starts out in Chapter nine, verse 2, by saying, "Woe, woe, woe." Now we've got mark the word "Woe," that word means utter destruction. It denotes distress or affliction or something adverse in these people's lives. And it's said three times. Now this is interesting, because Liz, and Shauna and I actually had a text conversation about the number three in scripture. And tell me a little bit of your thoughts. It was kind of a cool discussion.

Shauna 13:31

Liz, you have to take that in because I had no idea what you were talking about.

Liz 13:36

Welll in writing, there's the rule of threes. So if you want to drive home a point, you have to pose it one time, then you have to pose it again. And you have to pose it again. And that's because really, life is in threes. We have a beginning, a middle and an end. And kind of everything in life is in threes. And I think there's also a scientific thing, which I cannot prove, that is like, you got to repeat it a couple of times before you can really get it.

Tammy 14:08

Yeah Liz, I mean, I'm not a scientist either, but repeating things three times is Hebrew, which is so cool. I remember originally learning this, that Hebrew doesn't really have superlatives. You can't say, "Good, better, best." And so it's interesting because, when it talks about Isaiah when he talks about God and God says, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord," that means he's the holiest. The most holy, you could be. So we have "Woe," here he's not saying, "Woe, like, while you're kind of destructive." No, he's like, "Woe, woe, woe unto this people." Like this is it. And I can imagine it – well, you might hear the same thing when he comes again. Like, three "Woe's," utter destruction, "You just experienced it, and you knew you would." Like this was prophesied. And so it's a major– notice things in threes. Absolutely. It's the most I like what you expect. That lives that's really good. Let's look at some of these "I's" then. What I asked you to look for was what do the "I's" tell you about God, or tell you about Jesus Christ?

Shauna 15:10

This is where I said I would take it because, listen, I have no idea what the "I's" are all about. But that – just the way you preface the "Woe, woe, woe's," it makes it really real to me. And I felt like he was cleansing the temple there. I felt like he had cleansed it all. And he was – "I can do this, I did this, I will do this." I mean, it was so apparent, and then, like, I think it was Hugh Nibley that said that at 13 all the sudden, it's, "But, those of you I have spared, this is what I expect of you." And then the other part that really caught me was, I heard him saying in this, "And make no mistake. Don't misunderstand me. I am Jesus Christ. I created the heavens and the earth. I was with the Father and We are one. I'm the light and the life. I am Alpha and Omega. That's who I am

Tammy 16:09

Shauna, thank you for sharing that verse. That's in verse 15, for those of you who want to mark that, that was beautiful.

Liz 16:16

So I've been thinking about the "I's" that "I" question that you texted to Shauna and me yesterday. And I don't like to think that much, thank you.

Tammy 16:27

You're welcome.

Liz 16:28

'Cause it hurts. And here's what came to my mind. He's done everything for us. And He does everything for us. He's created everything for us. He sacrificed himself for us. The least we can do is follow His commandments. the least we can do is honor Him.

Tammy 16:50

Well Liz, thank you for bringing that up. That is perfect for Third Nephi Chapter nine, verse 20, because he's teaching them that he has fulfilled the Law of Moses. They aren't even sure what that means. But he tells them that in verse 17, like, "Okay, no more sacrifices. You don't even have to practice that anymore. Here's all I need from you. This is it." So go ahead Liz, in verse 20

Liz 17:10

I'm gonna cry, but I'll do my best. "And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not."

Tammy 17:36

Thank you, Liz. When you hear those words – we talk a lot about "broken heart and a contrite spirit." In fact, mark those in verse 20, the two times he says that. What does it mean to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit?

Shauna 17:48

I have written off to the side of my scriptures is – that it's repentant and obedient. That that's what we promise. That we will repent often, and we will be obedient.

Tammy 18:03

Shauna, I think that's a great example. Yeah. I like that. Any thoughts, Liz?

Liz 18:09

I think yes, with an exclamation point to what Shauna said. But also for me personally, it's like, with such humility and reverence and sorrow for the stupid things I do, just kind of laying my will at his feet.

Tammy 18:32

You know, the beauty of these verses is, He really does know how to do it, because He did it. He knows a broken heart and a contract spirit. I just have to share this with you because I thought it was so powerful. So when someone was crucified, sometimes they would live for days on the cross and then death resulted, but not from the infliction of mortal wounds, it was from an internal congestion or inflammations it was organic disturbances and an exhaustion of just vital energy. James E. Talmage wrote about this in Jesus the Christ. And he said, "Though Jesus was weakened by long torture, by the shock of the crucifixion itself and also by the intense mental agony, and particularly through spiritual suffering, such as no man has ever endured." Now, listen to this, this was interesting. He says, "When Christ bowed His head and 'gave up the ghost,' and when considered in connection with other recorded details, it points to a physical rupture of the heart as the direct cause of death—the Lord Jesus Chrsit died of a broken heart" (Jesus the Christ, chapter 35, footnote 35). " And I think that is powerful to me because in the book of Psalms, it talks about this in Psalms Chapter 69, verse 20, "Reproach has broken my heart, I am full of heaviness, and I looked for some to take pity but there was none. And for comforters but I found none. They gave to me gall for my meat and for my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink." But He really knows what it means to have a broken heart. And anyone listening who's had a broken heart, on that level, just know that Jesus Christ gets it. But when He asked us for a broken heart, He truly understands what He's asking for. And then contrite spirit, oh, this was really powerful. The word contrite and mark this in your scriptures.The word contract out of the 1828 Webster's dictionary means, "crushed in spirit, by a feeling of remorse or guilt," and the Savior knew that. And you can cross reference that verse we just read in third Nephi with Mark Chapter 14, verses 13 through 34. It describes Him going into the garden and the extreme sorrow that He experienced. And then Matthew Chapter 26, verse 27, again that word "sorrow." Now all of this and just thinking – and going back to what you said, Liz, "for all the stupid things that I've done," I love this quote by Elder Neal a. Maxwell and Shauna will you read this for us? This is one of my favorite ways about thinking of broken heart, contrite spirit and the sacrifice it requires of us.

Shauna 20:55

Elder Maxwell's said of this sacrifice, "Real, personal sacrifice never was placing an animal on the altar. Instead, it is a willingness to put the animal in us upon the altar and letting it be consumed! Such is the ‘sacrifice unto the Lord … of a broken heart and a contrite spirit’ (D&C 59:8)” (Neal A. Maxwell, “Deny Yourselves of All Ungodliness,” Ensign, May 1995, 68).

Tammy 21:15

Thank you. Those of you listening, I want you to take a minute and write in your journals. What does this sacrifice look like for you? What is the animal in you, that you need to place on the altar, so that you're willing to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit?

Liz 21:30

I'm not going to say.

Tammy 21:32

You do not have to get that transparent. I'll allow it.

Liz 21:35

But you know, as she was – one of the things that just, makes me want to weep, is it breaks my heart, to know that Christ's heart was broken. It just breaks my heart. And I don't want to add to that. I don't want to be one of those that breaks His heart. I don't want it ever to be said about Elizabeth that Jesus wept.

Tammy 22:02

And to think that it was broken for us, because of us. The power in that.

Shauna 22:08

And I find in myself that the animal, the natural man, natural woman –I I get selfish, I get prideful, and I want to do it my way. And instead of, like Liz said before, letting my will be swallowed up in His.

Tammy 22:32

What you've shared, both of you, was so tender. And I feel like all of us, as we listen to your words, your words resonated with every one of us. Like I think we feel the same way. And what I love about the next chapter, and what we'll talk about in the next segment is for anyone who's feeling maybe like, "I don't know that I can. II don't know how to put my animal on the altar," or "It's too hard." And the beauty in Chapter 10 is that, it's okay. He's going to help you do that. And we'll talk about this beautiful metaphor in our next segment.

Segment 3 23:05

Segment 3

Tammy 23:15

One of the things that I love about Shauna and Liz is that you were born in the wrong era. You were supposed to be born in the farm, cowboy era – 100%. I mean Liz you're Calamity Jane, through and through.

Liz 23:27

Yeah. Or like in the 40's.

Tammy 23:30

Yes. For sure you were.

Liz 23:31

I am such a frustrated cowgirl. Well, not that frustrated actually. Just a cowgirl.

Tammy 23:37

You're a cowgirl for sure. And Shauna is a farm girl. She's a farmer. And so Shauna, I want you to tell me – because I asked you ahead of time if you will tell us this. I know nothing about animals. I'm not even an animal lover at all.

Liz 23:47

You loved my dog.

Tammy 23:49

I did I loved Babe so much, but I don't own any animals, and people who are listening to that who love animals, you'll like me, I promise, because my friends – I have friends who like animals. But, I just wasn't raised with them. And so, this was hard for me to get perspective on. So Shauna, I want you to tell us about chickens and hens. Tell me all about them.

Shauna 24:08

Bob cats and raccoons and skunks like them, and, and great owls. I can tell you that much.

Tammy 24:15

So they are always kind of at a threat?

Shauna 24:18

Always. They are always being threatened by wildlife.

Liz 24:23

They taste like chicken.

Tammy 24:27

Sure, they're delicious. Okay.

Shauna 24:29

So when a mommy has these little, cute little chicks, they seem to be no bigger than a mar – a large marble. And if you can picture it, here's this big red hen Mommy, and she's walking all around the farm yard and she's pecking for food. And these little chickens in a straight line right behind her. These little chicks 11, 12, 13 of them. They just follow her everywhere she goes. They just follow her down the road and when she stops, they stop. They don't go run and play with their friends, they stop, and while she's picking for food, they peck around her and act like she does and they do just what she's doing. And then when the mom senses danger – and it can be just a dog barking at the next house or something, I mean, not even a visual danger, it's the sound and she'll start scratching underneath her, I've had so many hands scratch up my lawn, grrr, and she'll start scratching down a little bit, and then she'll spread out her, her wings. And those little chicks, they just scoot under. She doesn't have to make a sound.

Tammy 25:36

They really do?

Shauna 25:37

They just scoot right under her and she plops down, and that's where she sits. Now, you can imagine that if there is real danger, like a mountain lion, that she's not going to go. She won't fly off and leave them. A cow will. A cow will leave it's baby. She will attack what's going after it. But she'll leave the calf, a hen will never leave her chickens.

Tammy 26:04

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you, Shauna for giving us that. I'm going to ask you another question in a couple of minutes. But let's read what your description of chickens and hens has to do with Third Nephi Chapter 10, verses 4 through 6. And Liz we'll have you read that.

Liz 26:19

"O ye people of these agreat cities which have fallen, who are descendants of Jacob, yea, who are of the house of Israel, how oft have I gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and have cnourished you. And again, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, who have fallen; yea, O ye people of the house of Israel, ye that dwell at Jerusalem, as ye that have fallen; yea, how oft would I have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens, and ye would not. O ye house of Israel whom I have spared, how oft will I gather you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if ye will repent and breturn unto me with full purpose of heart."

Tammy 27:08

Thank you. Okay, so let me go back to you Shauna, and then continuing with this idea, what is it about this metaphor that's so beautiful? I mean, I'm already visualizing it, but tell me more.

Shauna 27:18

So the Savior senses – he knows us so well. And if we were better chickies, we would just be following along behind Him in the straightest line, and we wouldn't get distracted because He just knows us so well. And when He senses danger for us, and when we aren't focused on Him, it's got to really be upsetting to Him, because He's done all of that for us. He's prepared a safe spot for us all the way. And if we will just receive His safety and repent and return to Him and return our focus to Him, He will protect us. He was the first one to suffer for us.

Tammy 27:59

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that metaphor in the idea of that. Let's cross reference 35 Chapter 10 verse six, Liz finished reading there and write in, Doctrine and Covenants, Chapter 29, verse 2.

There are three qualifiers for who can gather under a hen's wing, and I really like this. And let's see how it applies to us. So section – and I'll read that section 29 verse 2, because I'm going to number for us. Verse two says, "Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will," put a number one right here, one "Hearken to my voice," And number two, "humble themselves before me," And number three "Call upon me in mighty prayer." And those three things qualify us to be covered by Christ. What's interesting about what you said, Shauna is that it's – it seems like it's instinctual for these little chicks. They're warned of the danger with the scratch, and then her wings open up and they just know where to go. They know who they trust, and I think when we are praying, right there, we already admit we know in who we trust. So going back to then, Shauna, what you were talking about earlier about the chickens and the hen, the mother hen, Liz, I want to know what stood out to you as Shawna was talking.

Liz 29:13

The thing that stood out to me because I've always often wondered about – because he's always talking about hens and chickens, and, you know, turkeys, I don't know. And I never really understood why, because I didn't know the characteristics of a hen. And what got me when Shauna was talking about it, is that she will never leave. She will sacrifice herself for her babies. And that's what Christ will do. He will – He has, and will, sacrifice Himself for us. And He will never leave. He will never leave us in danger. Ever, ever.

Tammy 29:54

I think what stood out to me, Shauna is what you said, I hadn't considered this, was how many things threaten chickens. There's so many threats. And then it made me think about my own life and us as humans, how many threats are out there. And yet, we just have to keep our eye on the hen. And I talked about this a couple of episodes ago, but what I thought was so interesting is that the word for grace in Hebrew is "Chen." It's spelled "C-H-E-N." Like a hen. And I described how I always imagined that Jesus is this big brooding hen, a big ol broad, just with these big wings and everyone can fit and "Just get in here, you, I'm gonna give you a hug and protect you." And I just think that is a perfect way of thinking of grace. And that's what this is. That's what he's saying. "I have enough grace for everybody to get it under here. Let me–

Liz 30:42

I have enough "Chen" for you.

Tammy 30:44

I have enough "Chen " for you. Perfect, Liz. Yes. Exaclty what it's saying. That's really good. That's powerful. Well, then, okay, so here's the question I want to ask both of you then. Think, throughout your lives, is there a specific time that stands out where you felt protected? Where you felt like you had run under those wings and you did feel protected?

Shauna 31:06

I feel it right now quite honestly, we've gotten back to church now for almost two months. We're going weekly in our little town. And I have felt that I needed to – through the entire seven months of COVID-19 that if I focused, if I watched the Prophet as he watched the Savior's instructions I will be safe. And I feel, I feel I am under his wings.

Tammy 31:38

Beautiful answer.

Liz 31:41

Well, yes, a lot of times, but I had a profound loss a couple of years ago, and I – oh my gosh, it's hard to even articulate it. Um, I, I, I just felt so comforted and protected by the Spirit that got me through this. And I was out of town at the time and I was directing the opera "Carmen" back in Michigan, and I didn't know how I was going to be able to cope because I couldn't leave, go back home. And guess who the first person I called was? Shauna. And I literally felt the grief lifted off of me. In fact, I remember talking with Shauna saying, I think something's wrong with me, I don't know why I'm okay. Because it was devastating. And then about, oh, maybe 10 days after that person died. I remember God speaking to me and saying, "Okay, Lizzie. I'm really sorry, but you've got to feel it now." I felt that protecting spirit just kind of go back, because it was time for me to experience the grief. And He was there. But it was palpable – the difference. He knew I needed Him, in order to even get up in the morning and take care of business. And after some time had passed, that I knew I was going to be okay. Then in little degrees, it was like, "You've got to get back to life now. You've got to feel this now, and you've got to get through it."

Tammy 33:33

Wow. I really appreciate the way you both articulated how you felt covered. Thank you for sharing that with us. Because He does that for not just the two of you. But for every single one of us. He does it for everybody. And I think the beauty in these verses is what He's saying, He's like, "I will do this for you. I'm right here like just let me cover you. Let me protect you from all of this." I mean, I feel like everything works out in the end and if it hasn't worked out, then it's not the end. Like it's, it's He's going to make sure that it works out for our best benefit when all is said and done, and especially when we're gathered safely under the wings of this proverbial hen. So in the next segment, we're going to see exactly how it worked out for these people who were gathered around the temple in Bountiful, and how beautiful that moment was for these people.

Segment 4 34:20

Segment 4

Tammy 34:31

Okay, we are in 3 Nephi chapter 11. So ever make sure you're there because we're going to write a couple of things on the sides. Here's something fun to think about. I want you guys to consider some scholars believe that it was actually 40 days or six weeks later, when the Savior came. They believe that it was after his 40-day ministry with His apostles in the New Testament that He showed up. We don't really know but some people believe that all the darkness and everything happened three hours, three days, and then they had to wait.

Liz 34:58

Well, one of the things that we do in the Book of Mormon video. . .

Tammy 35:01

Yes, say on.

Liz 35:02

Like I know so much, is that remember that this devastation just didn't happen in one place, it happened throughout the land. So all of these people had to gather to the temple because they had nothing else.

Tammy 35:16

And there wouldn't have been roads.

Liz 35:17

Let's go to Oz.

Tammy 35:18

I mean, they had to traverse some crevasses or whatever to get there, you know. And I love that Jesus Christ gave them time to do that. It wasn't all of a sudden, "Boom!" You know, like they had time. And so there's beauty in that.

Shauna 35:34

I'm so glad to hear that Tammy because I've been concerned about that. So when I lived in Draper, Utah, I lived five minutes from the temple but now I live three and a half hours from the temple. And I was thinking I would never make it in time. And I'm so relieved to know that I would have time to get—

Liz 35:53

You're going to have 40 days to get to the temple.

Shauna 35:56

It will take me about that long.

Tammy 36:01

You could ride a horse but, yeah, I think it's great to point out is there a lot of people that made it to the temple. So to think that that many people were all there at the same time, no all over the land, and they had to, and they all made it back for this incredible moment.

You know, Hugh Nibley calls this chapter, "the fifth gospel," because there are 30 pages of Christ's teachings. When you compare that to the New Testament, in the book of Matthew, there are 28 pages, Mark is 16 pages, Luke is 21 pages, and John is 24 pages of Christ teachings. But we get 30 right here in 3 Nephi 11 till the end of 3 Nephi. So it parallels a lot of the teachings that He taught in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but of course, it's going to give us the higher law and we'll talk a lot more about that in our next episode.

But Liz, I want to go back to you now, tell us what it was like to write 3 Nephi 11. And, specifically, we're going to talk about you know, verses one through five, but look at, just looking at verses one through two, and Shauna, you brought this up that people are gathered around the temple in Bountiful They're talking about, in verse two, they're talking about the sign of the death that was given and all the things that happen. So, Liz, tell us a little bit about this experience writing 3 Nephi 11?

Liz 37:09

Well, I have to say that other than the logistics of it, like how you write it for film, this particular episode was almost the easiest to write because I just imagined what it must have been to be there.

I love where it says in verse three, "And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven." Now remember, right after the destruction, they heard a voice as well. So it probably, for them, was like, "There's that voice again. There's the voice."

And they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven, "and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard."

Tammy 38:01

Now that's interesting because they didn't understand it.

Liz 38:04

Interesting.

Tammy 38:05

Yeah, keep reading.

Liz 38:07

"And it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center." And it's interesting that it says, "it did pierce them that did hear." So maybe there were some that did not hear because I just kind of thought that everyone would have heard it, but I don't know.

Tammy 38:33

Let's highlight that. I'm so glad you brought that up, highlight, "it did pierce them that did hear," keep going.

Liz 38:41

"Insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake." And again, remember, these are the same people that just went through all of that destruction. And what that destruction felt like. And I'm thinking, "How was the terror of that destruction greater than or equal to how they're quaking now. Okay, and I don't think it was quaking with fear, but it's quaking with the Spirit. It's quaking with that warmth, it's quaking with, you know, how you just can't take it anymore.

Tammy 39:17

I want you to think about what that feels like because I have felt that. I mean, my first experience feeling that was girls' camp where you're just feeling the Spirit so strong and you're shaking and like there's so many young girls like know what that feels like. And I equate it to that for me. And since then, I've had moments where I'm just, you can't deny that.

What's beautiful about this is that sometimes when we hear the word quake, we think of this earthquake and we're shaking and we're uncontrollable, but we respond differently. Everyone's quake is different. And Shauna, your experience with this, of hearing a still small voice and your quake is different. Will you tell us that story, please?

Shauna 39:54

In 2008, my younger brother was diagnosed with a very rare form of abdominal cancer, and he miraculously had the most inspired, knowledgeable medical team in the world. So after a year of treatments, he'd had some good years. And then 2011, the cancer began to come back to, progress again.

So during the years of hospitalizations, my sister-in-law would call us and say, "I need you to come." And so as his health began to deteriorate rapidly, we'd asked her, "Do you want us to come now?" And she finally said, "I'm not going to tell you when to come anymore. You'll know when you need to come." And it was so frustrating, like, "What? You expect us to know where they come down?"

And so my prayers intensified that I would be able to recognize and listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit that I would know when to go. And it didn't come, it didn't come. And I was at work, and I had this voice say, "Go now." And I just stopped in my tracks. And I was like, "Go now." And within two hours, I was on a plane to L.A. And the car was there waiting for me, the rental car. And I drove straight to his house in L.A., that's impossible, but I did. And he and my, and my youngest brother and I sat and sang childhood songs to him, and he passed away right there in our arms. And that experience prepared me for a lot of other times in my life since then, that I've needed to stop and go now.

Tammy 41:42

Thank you for sharing that, Shana. It's a beautiful story, and powerful.

Liz, what about you? Do you have a time in your life where you have felt the Spirit?

Liz 41:50

I was in college, and I come from a mixed marriage. My mother was a Mormon. My dad was not a Mormon. So you it was like, "Whoa." And I finally got into college and I said, "Well, if I'm going to be a Mormon, I guess I better read this book." Late to the game.

Tammy 42:09

So you didn't know Christ came to America, either?

Liz 42:12

No, actually, I remember I listened during Mutual class.

Tammy 42:17

Rats. Well you were one up on me then, sister.

Liz 42:22

And I remember that I had my first spiritual experience reading that Book of Mormon. It was "Adam fell that men might be; and men are that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25). And I just started weeping. I went, "What the heck is this? I think I'm having a spiritual experience." It's the burning in your heart that you, it's like, "Oh my gosh, you can't deny that."

Tammy 42:48

Thanks, Liz.

You know, that was, that was a really beautiful experience of feeling the Spirit that way. Maybe that's something we can share on Facebook and Instagram is, "What does a quake feel like to you when you have heard the whispering of the Spirit?"

So let's get back into the scriptures. Will you keep reading for us? Because I love that you pointed out those who heard it did pierce them to the center, but not everybody did. So keep reading for us in verse four and five.

Liz 43:12

"4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

"5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came" (3 Nephi 11:4–5).

Tammy 43:38

Thank you.

I love how you read verse five, will you read that for us one more time? And for those of you who are listening and studying with us, I want you to mark what they did to hear. What happened? What allowed them to finally hear and understand, for everybody I should say?

Liz 43:54

"5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came" (3 Nephi 11:5).

Tammy 44:09

What did you mark?

Shauna 44:11

I marked, "open their ears," and, "turn their eyes to the sound, and "look steadfastly towards heaven." And I feel like in that the prophets have been telling us, "Hear Him. Hear Him." I'll say it three times, "Hear Him," because I think that's exactly what we need to be able to do.

Tammy 44:36

Absolutely.

And then Liz, read for us and tell me about verse seven.

Liz 44:42

Can I do six and seven?

Tammy 44:44

Please.

Liz 44:45

"6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him" (3 Nephi 11:6–7).

Tammy 45:08

How did you write this part?

Liz 45:11

I'm trying to remember because yesterday, as I was working, I'm working on "Mormon Abridges the Plates" right now so, and as I was writing, I said, "I got to read that episode again so that I can remember."

But if you remember at the very beginning of this, everybody's talking. Everybody that is gathered at the temple, they're all talking about what's happened because some places had tempests, some places had whirlwinds, some places had floods—everybody went through something different, but everything was devastated. And everybody's talking about then what happened to them, what happened to their city, what happened to their families and friends, and then what happened to them as they were spared.

And so to me, there's just this cacophony of talking that's going on in the air. And then Nephi, who we remember is there, stops and he hears something, and he's not quite sure what it is. His wife stops and other people around him, our witness characters, stop. We see them stop. They hear something but they don't quite know what it is, whether or not it's because they're not spiritually in tune, I don't think so. I think it's because there's just so much going on that they hear something.

And then everybody quiets down and then this tumult of noise then quiets down. And everybody on mass looks towards heaven. And we see this speck, this speck coming down from heaven, and no one knows what it is. And it gets bigger, and then gets bigger, and gets bigger. And then we see His feet touch the earth.

Tammy 46:57

And I'm thinking in my mind, like, "Why would it be any different for us?" I mean, when we're taught by the prophets and apostles that 3 Nephi will mimic our day and how closely they parallel each other, the beauty in that.

And if I am saved, and I am here, I hope I'm, I can remember this and go, "Oh, wait a minute. I know this. I know what that voice is." You know? How powerful that must be.

Shauna, tell me some of your thoughts?

Shauna 47:24

Well, an experience I had many, not too many years ago, but I can't remember when Anne Pingree was released from the Relief Society. But I remember she gave a talk in general conference that just moved me and stayed with me ever since.

And two or three days later, I was at the McDonald's on 13th East with my little kids and I heard her voice.

And, I thought, "I know that voice." And as you know, those play rooms can be really loud and really noisy and I turned over to look at where It was coming from, and it was her. And I was able to go to her and tell her how much her talk meant to me.

And after I left, I thought, "I pray with all my heart that the day I hear the Savior's voice, I will recognize it. And I will be able to go to Him and say, "I love you."

Tammy 48:26

And as you're saying that, like I feel the Spirit so strongly because your words resonate in my heart. I think, "Oh, I hope I will, too. I hope I recognize that voice." Thank you for sharing that.

And so in the next segment, we're going to study the words, the very first words, that the Savior says to the people.

All right, let's just jump right in. And we're gonna pick up where we left off with Liz and describing what it was like when His feet touched, and He came and people saw Him.

And I want us to go right into what He had to say to the people. Let's read His words in 3 Nephi 11. And we're going to read verses 10 and 11.

And Shauna, will you read that for us, please?

Shauna 49:15

"10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

"11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning" (3 Nephi 11:10–11).

Tammy 49:37

Thank you.

I want you to go into verse 11 and I want you to highlight specifically when He says, "I have drunk out of that bitter cup." I want to talk about that for a minute. This is powerful to me, and I'm going to give you a cross reference but I want to show you something before I do. And I'll put a picture of this in the show notes.

Liz 49:53

Oh, I love that. I know what that is because you've brought it to show and tell before.

Tammy 49:57

I have, what is this, Liz? Can you guys describe to the listeners what you're seeing?

Liz 50:01

It's this tiny little vial, very, very thin with a kind of a lip on the very edge, a fluted edge.

Shauna 50:12

And it's very little.

Tammy 50:13

Right? It's so tiny, huh? It's about the length of my index finger. Perfect.

Okay, so this is one of my most-prized possessions that a friend brought for me, my friend Roberta, she goes back to Jerusalem often and she brought this for me one time. And she told me that this is called a tear jar. Now what's beautiful about this tear jar and the reason why it's fluted is because you can put it up to your eye and it will literally catch tears.

I want to give you some cool information and background about this tear jar and tell you why I want to study this when you marked, "I will drink out of the bitter cup."

Okay, so Roman emperors they used to collect tears in this tear jar. When it would fill up with tears, they'd cover the top with wax, and they would then deliver the tear jar to the family member or friend of the person who they mourned after.

But the cross reference I want to give you with the bitter cup is Psalms 56:8, so write that next to the side.

And, Shauna, will you read that for us?

Shauna 51:10

8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: are they not in thy book? (Psalm 56:8)

Tammy 51:18

Now, in 753 BC, even for the founding of Rome, there were things called tear cups and they also would collect tears of the mourners of the death of a loved one. And collecting tear jars or a tear vase or a tear cup was a very common practice to the entire Mediterranean area.

Another interesting thing is in the book of Luke, when the woman who comes in to bathe His feet with her tears, there's actually a belief that she took her tear jar in and broke it open. She removed the wax and poured her tears over the Savior's feet. A lot of scholars are like she couldn't have possibly, she could have maybe cried that much, but there's actually a deeper belief that she took in her tear jars or tear vessel or tear cup and pour them over the Savior's feet.

Now, according to John Lund, who I learned this from, the bitter cup is an accumulation of all of our tears. I mean, think about it, that's a lot of tears. So when you go back to this idea of this woman who broke the tear jar, and bathed the Savior's feet with her tears, and then I think about my tear jars and how I would do that, and then all of our tear jars. So many tears, that Isaiah actually refers to the cup as being a flagon.

I'm gonna tell you what that means. Let's first go to this reference. It's in Isaiah 22:24. So if you turn to Isaiah 22:24, highlight the word "flagon" because a flagon is a large goatskin, and it was used to be filled with water or wine, that's how they would preserve it and keep it. And so in this verse, the cup here when He says remove this cup from me, it could represent a flagon of tears so large that no mortal could accommodate it. It could represent a tear cup filled with tears, a symbol of sorrow that's so great, only one who was possessed with divine power could truly drink of this flagon filled with our tears.

So the cup could not pass from Him, and He asked three times. He knew what was inside of this cup that He would drink and it was going to be filled with our tears, the tears of our sorrow from our sins, from just our sadness from life. When you think of all the times you've cried in your life, and you think of the Savior and the tear jars that are filled. It is no wonder that the Savior asked twice that this bitter cup be removed. He knew, He knew just how many bitter tears there would be to drink.

So I just want you to consider what fills your tear bottle, as Psalm says? And then to consider this quote by Laurel Christensen Day, and she gave this at a Time Out for Women talk about tears and about crying and about tear jars. And I love how she said this, listen, quote, "If He lives to wipe away my tears, then I can trust that I live in part to cry them."

And so there's no shame in filling a tear jar at all. It's part of the process. It's part of the plan. We're going to have bitter moments. We're going to have tear jars, we're going to have bitter cups.

And I want to read this really cool quote by Elder Faust and, Shauna, will you please read this for us about our moments and things that fill our tear jars?

Shauna 54:29

"Many members, in drinking of the bitter cup that has come to them, wrongfully think that this cup passes by others. In His first words to the people of the Western continent, Jesus of Nazareth poignantly spoke of the bitter cup the Father had given Him (see 3 Ne. 11:11). Every soul has some bitterness to swallow. Parents having a child who loses his way come to know a sorrow that defies description. A woman whose husband is cruel or insensitive can have her heart broken every day. Members who do not marry may suffer sorrow and disappointment. Having drunk the bitter cup, however, there comes a time when one must accept the situation as it is and reach upward and outward" (James E Faust, “A Second Birth”, Ensign, June 1998).

I think to me that says that you don't hold on to it forever. In my situation, it's continue to love unconditionally, and be accepting and loving even though my heart breaks.

Tammy 55:31

Oh Shauna, thank you so much for saying that because I know a little bit about your story and you do have unconditional love. And then it made me think of the unconditional love that the Savior feels about us and has for us, tears and all. So thank you for bringing that up. That was great, because I know both of you and there, and one thing I for sure know is that you have definitely filled your tear jars.

And some scholars also believed that they would collect the tear jars and put them on their mantle as a reminder of the tears they have shed for their loved ones, they're sad times, their sins, as a point to Jesus Christ or God, who's going to drink of those tears eventually, or already has, and helps us do all of our hard times.

Liz, you look very pensive.

Liz 56:15

I do, don't I?

Tammy 56:16

I know, what are you thinking?

Liz 56:18

I'm deep in thought. Well, I loved James Faust because, I'll just name drop here a little bit, he was my stake president as I was growing up. And as Shauna was reading that quote, what came into my mind, and you said, "Have you had times where blah, blah, blah, filled your cup?" And I, you know, I said, "I'm tired of filling my cup."

Tammy 56:38

Yeah,

Liz 56:38

I don't want to think about my childhood anymore. I don't want to think about my bad marriage anymore. I don't want to think about the death that I've, and I'm tired of it. As you two know, I've adopted a new catchphrase, which is, "I don't care."

Tammy 56:53

It's true. I've heard you say it.

Liz 56:55

It's not that I don't care about the important things. I'm tired of caring about the stuff that does not bring me joy, I'm just tired of it. I don't want to do it anymore. It brings me down, it heavies my heart. And I want to do exactly what President Faust said, I want to put it behind me and I want to look heavenward because that's where the comfort and the, the solace and the succor comes from.

Tammy 57:26

I really appreciate that because as you're saying that in my mind I'm picturing, "Yeah, you don't have to. He already drank, he, it's gone." When you drink something, you can't get it back. Like, He's already drank your bitter cup so let Him carry that now. It's gone. It's done. I think that's a great application of I'm done.

Liz 57:44

And I think more mentally healthy, too.

Tammy 57:46

Well, I think you're right. I think there's some therapists would agree. Yes.

I liked when I was studying for this because I read in one of the study books that I use, and I'll put this in the show notes, but it was really powerful for me because it said, "There is nothing any of us will ever suffer that our Savior has not also suffered, He descended not only to our condition but below all things (D&C 88:6, 122:8). When we cry out, “But you don’t understand!” he is the only One who actually does understand—all things, and his understanding is accompanied by compassion" (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, Verse by Verse the Book of Mormon, Vol. Two, Deseret Book 2011).

And I just thought that was great. How many times I've thought that? "You don't get. Oh, yeah, He does get it."

Shauna 58:23

There are times I say, as you do, Tammy, "Oh, yeah, He is the one that understands." And often in my, my parenting, I have to say, "Oh, yes, you do understand. You've cried for them also, you've wept those tears also." And then I don't feel so alone in parenting. I mean, my husband and I are together always but there are moments as a mother that you just feel really alone in parenting. And it's so helpful to me to be able to say, "I know you know them because you love them and have wept for them too."

Tammy 59:02

I appreciate you sharing that, Shauna. That was good for my heart.

So isn't it so incredibly amazing how the very first thing that the Savior wants us to know about Him, the first thing that he says to the Nephites who are sitting around the temple, is in 3 Nephi 11:11. Let's read it again.

"...I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning" (3 Nephi 11:11).

And I just love that He gives credit back to God for the sacrifice that He gave for all of us, for this, for His sacrifice. And, and it was for us, and it was for our tears and our tear jars, our tear bottles, our tear flagons, as we have learned in this segment. And I just, there's so much beauty in just that one verse.

He then invites the multitude, oh, this is so beautiful, to do something very specific. And so in the next segment, we're going to read about what it is, and why I personally think this is the most tender and deeply personal of all moments in the Book of Mormon.

Segment 6 1:00:06

Segment 6

Tammy 1:00:15

Alright, so I'm just gonna tell you right up front, my husband and I live by a rule, which is "Avoid all crowds and all lines." So we do everything we can to avoid those. We go to dinner early, we say no to tickets for big things. It's just, I feel like sometimes I'm an 85-year-old person. Sorry, if you're 85 and you enjoy crowds. I probably just totally—

Liz 1:00:33

You just go to the early bird special, don't you?

Tammy 1:00:36

We do! We totally do!

So when I read this part of 3 Nephi 11, I did kind of think, "Oh, dear, what would I have done?" Because this is a lot of people and I, my crappy attitude probably would have had me miss out on one of the most incredible experiences.

Liz 1:00:53

And you would have taken a number that's like in "Beetlejuice"?

Tammy 1:00:56

Oh, 100 percent, like, "Hey, call me when I'm up." That's exactly what would have happened. Or I would have found you, Liz. "Liz, save me a place, I'm going to go. Well, I'm gonna go get a gyro and a drink. Let me know when I'm up."

So let's read what this experience is. Turn to 3 Nephi 11 and we're gonna read verse 15. And Liz, your up, will you read that verse for us?

Liz 1:01:17

Goody, goody, I was hoping you'd ask me. I love this verse.

Tammy 1:01:21

Okay, hit it.

Liz 1:01:22

"15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and adid feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come" (3 Nephi 11:15).

One of the things I wanted to just mention. I forgot to mention, when Christ descends, I was talking about how I wrote it, the importance of seeing His feet land on the ground first is because you see the scars of the nails in His feet. That's why I had it. This is what we see first. So we know exactly who it is and they know exactly who it is.

Tammy 1:02:20

That's powerful. I like that.

Liz 1:02:22

Thank you. God told me to do that. He's the best filmmaker ever.

Tammy 1:02:27

He really is.

Okay, let's cross reference that. Put 3 Nephi 17:25, and we have to go there because you need to have this, this verse in context. It just blows my mind. And this is where I get to the part where I'm like, "I would have had someone just, you know, take a number, come get me when I'm done."

Liz 1:02:44

What was the verse?

Tammy 1:02:45

3 Nephi 17:25 tells us how many people went one by one. Shauna, read for us 3 Nephi 17:25.

Shauna 1:02:56

"25 And the multitude did see and ahear and bear record; and they know that their record is true for they all of them did see and hear, every man for himself; and they were in number about two thousand and five hundred souls; and they did consist of men, women, and children" (3 Nephi 17:25).

Tammy 1:03:16

That's so many people, 2,500 people.

Liz 1:03:20

Hours. It took hours.

Tammy 1:03:21

One by one. Days if, let's just say everybody gets one minute. I mean, that's the other thing, that's a logistical nightmare. Who's in charge? Are there angels saying, "Move along, people." I mean, it's like the longest wedding line you've ever been in.

Liz 1:03:33

And this is the wonder of Christ. I think He took as long as that person needed to take.

Tammy 1:03:40

I think He extended time. I think there's something not in scripture where it just, He lengthened the day because I think you're right, Liz.

Liz 1:03:49

I think He took as much time as each person needed to take and it would be different, and I think that the Spirit was so full in their hearts, that they wouldn't be greedy with it. They would be respectful and reverent, and I don't think they would have hogged the time. But I think He would give them the time that they needed.

And I think we as brothers and sisters would have given our brothers and sisters and the kids the time that they needed.

Tammy 1:04:16

Thank you for saying that because I, I would hope so because I know me well enough to be like—

Liz 1:04:20

You would be off getting the popcorn.

Tammy 1:04:22

Oh, geez, I'd be in that line saying, "Speed, you've been there for five minutes! What's your problem? Like, come on, sister. How long you gonna take?" I am so impatient. So I would like to believe that, yeah, there had to have been a change for these people.

I mean, Shauna, tell me what you think this tells us about Christ?

Shauna 1:04:40

I was thinking how, during the sacrament when we are in not literally touching those scars, but we are thinking about those scars, and how we can take as long as we need to to think about it, unless we get really distracted. But I've been really working on it these last few weeks of paying attention to the sacrament prayers. And then thinking about touching those scars, and making Him my personal Christ as I partake of the sacrament so that I want him to know that I appreciate those scars.

Liz 1:05:22

Thank you, Shauna. This COVID stuff has been inspiring.

But here's, here's another element that I just thought of when Shauna was talking is that we always think about the people who are waiting to touch His hands and feet. But how spiritually nourishing is it to watch others experience that?

Tammy 1:05:45

Oh my gosh, I just had that thought because I would say I would be the person then who'd want to watch. Stand behind the Savior and just capture every moment like, "Oh, look who's going, oh, wait, it's Liz's turn now! Watch everybody, everybody, it's Liz!"

Liz 1:05:57

Yeah, I never even thought of that.

Tammy 1:05:59

Me neither, but I love it. I would because there's so many people, there are specific people in my life who that I would want to be there for that moment.

Liz 1:06:06

Yeah, I agree.

Tammy 1:06:08

I want to read this quote, about the power of touch. Again, this is in the book that I used to study by D Kelly Ogden and Andrew C. Skinner. And they said:

“Touch was an important element in lasting conversion: the people, one by one, touched his body for two reasons: (1) to know and testify forever that the living Christ is a real, corporeal being, to avoid what later happened to apostates who claim that God is without body, parts or passions; and (2) to experience the wounds of the Atonement—to be personal eyewitnesses of the dramatic, tangible evidence of his pure love" (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner, "Verse by Verse the Book of Mormon, Vol. Two," Deseret Book 2011).

And so I just want to ask you both what is your witness of Christ?

Shauna 1:06:54

My husband and I served an inner-city mission several years ago. And I was able to help a woman who was very mentally ill, but she wanted new teeth. She had gone through some hard times and kidney transplants and her teeth were gone.

And I helped her make the arrangements to get these teeth. And she turned to me one day and she said, "Sister Beard, why are you doing this?"

And immediately, the thought came to me and I said to her, "I'm trying to be like Jesus." And I hope that my Heavenly Father and the Savior recognize that service in me, that that is my witness of them.

Tammy 1:07:45

Absolutely, thank you for sharing that.

Liz, what's your witness of Him?

Liz 1:07:52

I am so different than Shauna. Shauna, I love Shauna because she actually, I think she probably wakes up every day and says, "How can I serve today?" I wake up every day and say, "How can I avoid serving today?" I hate service, it makes me uncomfortable. I wasn't brought up with it. I don't like it.

But the thing that came to me is, I don't have children. I'm not married. But I had this dog, Babe the dog. And my witnesses is this:

She was a yellow lab and she was my everything, she truly was. And dog lovers out there will know what I mean. And she was 15 and a half when I had to put her down. And Tammy was there, I invited some of my closest friends to be there. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done. It was harder than In me being with my mother when she died, mainly because I was doing it, I had chosen to put my dog down.

And I had avoided it for months. As my friend Sharon Staples, who has been on your show before says, "Whenever you decide to put your dog down, you should have done it three months ago."

Tammy 1:09:20

Yeah.

Liz 1:09:20

So I remember, I, I put Babe down. And it was about, you know, 5:30 in the afternoon. It was a beautiful day until we took Babe out and the clouds had come in. And about five o'clock that morning, I couldn't sleep. And so I got on my knees and I was talking my dad, my earthly dad who was up there, and I said, "Dad, I need you to take care of Babe until I come." And I said, "This is what I need you to tell her. I didn't want her to go. I wanted her to stay with me, but I gave her the gift of the greatest sacrifice that I could give which was death."

And at that very moment, I got this flood of understanding of the Atonement and of God. And the sacrifice that Christ and God made for us in giving this precious thing and letting it die for a greater good. So that she could romp and play in heaven, in dog heaven.

Tammy 1:10:38

Oh, Liz and Shauna, so tender. I appreciate both of you so much, and your willingness to share your experiences. Thank you so much. And this has been an incredible experience with you for the past little while.

And for those of you that are listening, I'm going to pose at the end of the week a takeaway asking, "What is your witness?" I want you to think Think about that throughout this week.

And I think for me, my witness is that God loves me. Like, I believe that more than anything, and I think God loves everybody, not even think, I believe that, and that you really are His favorite. I know I say that at the end of each episode, but I really, I truly believe that. That is my witness that He loves me so much and that I am His favorite.

And I'll probably be the last person in the line. That's my lot, to be number 2,499 and I will get there and it will be worth it. And I think Heavenly Father, I think Jesus Christ will just grab me and go, "Yeah, you did it. You stood in that line."

Liz 1:11:43

Thanks for waiting.

Tammy 1:11:44

Yep, and it will have been worth it. And I'll just feel that love. I just believe that.

So thank you, both of you, for joining me today. Thank you. That was incredible. So tell me, what is your takeaway? What did you guys get out of today?

Shauna 1:11:57

I want to be that little chick that's right there and scoots right under as soon as the mother hen opens her arms, I want to be the first one first in that one, Tammy.

Tammy 1:12:08

That's a great one. I love that. Thank you.

Liz 1:12:12

The thing that comes to my mind first is I want to be the one who recognizes the voice right off. Hears the voice right off and immediately looks into heaven and goes, "That speck is Christ." I pray every night that I'm not one of those elect that wanders away. So I want to recognize His voice straight off.

Tammy 1:12:37

Yeah, oh and I imagine when you see that speck and you go, "That's Christ, that speck." I totally imagine you saying, "I wrote it just like this." You saying, "Good job, God. Well, way to follow direction."

Liz 1:12:49

I love it. You read the script. Well done.

Tammy 1:12:52

Well, thank you, both of you, for sharing. My takeaway today, for sure was from the very first segment when you guys said," Nothing works without Christ's spirit and without Christ's light." And I just thought, "I just loved that." You're so right. Nothing does, it's always dark. So that was my takeaway so thank you for sharing that.

Okay, for those of you who are listening, we would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode.

Now, if you have not already joined our discussion group on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, you really should. It's the best place to ask questions. And I have loved when people ask questions throughout the week that relate to the things we're studying, and I read them and I answer them. And other people answer, which is kind of fun to get other people's perspectives on them.

So go there and then at the end of every week, it's usually on a Sunday, we call for, "What was your big takeaway?" And that is, hands down, my favorite part of my week is reading everybody's takeaways. And then there's always one that stands out to me and so I love sharing that on the following Monday. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and let me know what you guys have learned.

You can get to both our Facebook and our Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway because that's where we also have the links to all the references that we use today as well as a complete transcript of this whole discussion. So check it out.

The Sunday on Monday study group is a Desert Bookshelf PLUS + original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy, Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study group participants were Shauna Beard and Liz Hansen. You can find more information about these ladies at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.

Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and Erica Free. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week. And you really are God's favorite.

Liz 1:14:39

You know, whenever you talk for God, He always sounds like an agent. Have you noticed that? Like, "Oh, yeah, you're gonna want her. She'll work for scale. And you won't even have to get a trailer for her. She's so easy."

Tammy 1:14:52

She'll work for scale!

Liz 1:14:53

"So get Shauna, get Liz. They're great, they're perfect, you're going to love them."

Tammy 1:14:57

He totally is! He's the greatest agent ever.