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46: “By Faith All Things Are Fulfilled” (Ether 12–15)

Mon Nov 23 17:14:23 EST 2020
Episode 46

Do you have a favorite, go-to scripture for when things get tough? Maybe it’s just a line or a verse that seems to bring you peace no matter what? In this week’s lesson, we’ll be studying Ether 12–15, which are arguably the least peaceful narratives in the Book of Mormon. But hidden in these sad tales of bloodshed and chaos could be verses that brought Joseph Smith’s brother Hyrum peace during his final days and may bring peace to our lives as well.

Segment 1:

Ether 12:27 is, “One of the most magnificent single-verse sermons in all of scripture!” (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner: Verse by Verse: The Book of Mormon, Vol. 2, 279).

For he did acry from the bmorning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be cdestroyed, saying unto them that dby efaith all things are fulfilled—

Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with asurety bhope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which chope cometh of dfaith, maketh an eanchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in fgood works, being led to gglorify God (Ether 12:3–4).

Segment 2:

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that afaith is things which are bhoped for and cnot seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no dwitness until after the etrial of your faith (Ether 12:6).

  • Cross Reference:1 Peter 1:7
  • That the atrial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the bappearing of Jesus Christ:

Examples of faith:

13 Behold, it was the faith of Alma and Amulek that caused the aprison to tumble to the earth.

14 Behold, it was the faith of Nephi and Lehi that wrought the achange upon the Lamanites, that they were baptized with fire and with the bHoly Ghost.

15 Behold, it was the faith of aAmmon and his brethren which bwrought so great a miracle among the Lamanites.

16 Yea, and even all they who wrought amiracles wrought them by bfaith, even those who were before Christ and also those who were after.

17 And it was by faith that the three disciples obtained a promise that they should anot taste of death; and they obtained not the promise until after their faith.

18 And neither at any time hath any wrought miracles until after their faith; wherefore they first believed in the Son of God.

19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even abefore Christ came, who could not be kept from within the bveil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad.

20 And behold, we have seen in this record that one of these was the brother of Jared; for so great was his faith in God, that when God put forth his afinger he could not hide it from the sight of the brother of Jared, because of his word which he had spoken unto him, which word he had obtained by faith.

21 And after the brother of Jared had beheld the finger of the Lord, because of the apromise which the brother of Jared had obtained by faith, the Lord could not withhold anything from his sight; wherefore he showed him all things, for he could no longer be kept without the bveil.

22 And it is by faith that my fathers have obtained the apromise that these things should come unto their brethren through the Gentiles; therefore the Lord hath commanded me, yea, even Jesus Christ (Ether 12:13–22).

The brother of Jared's faith:

30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, aRemove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith (Ether 12:30).

Quote: "No man can obtain salvation without a thorough trial of faith and obedience to the principles of eternal truth which have been established from the beginning for the salvation and exaltation of mankind” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, comp. Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., 5 vols. [1957–66], 4:150).

Segment 3:

What was Moroni concerned about?

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will amock at these things, because of our bweakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us cmighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; (Ether 12:23).

27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their aweakness. I bgive unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my cgrace is sufficient for all men that dhumble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make eweak things become strong unto them (Ether 12:27).

  • Weakness (singular)
  • Cross Reference:Doctrine and Covenants 35:13
  • 13 Wherefore, I call upon the aweak things of the world, those who are bunlearned and despised, to thresh the cnations by the power of my dSpirit;
  • Thresh: “This expression is found in Habakkuk 3:12. Threshing, in olden times, was done by treading out the grain on a threshing-floor. The going forth of the messengers of the gospel among the nations is like trampling the wheat sheaves on the hard floor. The valuable kernels are carefully gathered up; the straw is left.” (Smith and Sjodahl, Commentary, p. 186.)

Quote: “Those who do not see their weaknesses do not progress. Your awareness of your weakness is a blessing as it helps you remain humble and keeps you turning to the Savior. The Spirit not only comforts you, but He is also the agent by which the Atonement works a change in your very nature. Then weak things become strong” (President Henry B. Eyring, "My Peace I Leave With You," April 2017 conference).

Segment 4:

Before he went to Cartridge Jail, Hyrum Smith folded down a page in his Book of Mormon with these verses highlighted:

37 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful; wherefore, thy garments shall be made aclean. And because thou hast seen thy bweakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the ajudgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my bgarments are not spotted with your blood (Ether 12:37–38).

  • Cross Reference:Doctrine and Covenants 135:4
  • When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: “I am going like a alamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a bconsciencecvoid of offense towards God, and towards all men. I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:

Segment 5:

The Tenth Article of Faith:

"We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

And now I, Moroni, proceed to finish my record concerning the destruction of the people of whom I have been writing.

For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had areceded from off the face of this bland it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should cserve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

And that it was the place of the aNew Jerusalem, which should bcome down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.

Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a aNew Jerusalem upon this land.

And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the aJerusalem from whence bLehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a choly city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—(Ether 13:1–5).

Segment 6:

The last battles of the Jaredite people: 

21 And so great and lasting had been the war, and so long had been the scene of bloodshed and carnage, that the whole face of the land was covered with the abodies of the bdead (Ether 14:21).

23 And the ascent thereof went forth upon the face of the land, even upon all the face of the land; wherefore the people became troubled by day and by night, because of the scent thereof (Ether 14:23).

  • More than two million of the Jaredites were killed according to Ether 15:2

23 And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr, and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz.

24 And it came to pass that they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields, all that day.

25 And when the night came there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz, and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr (Ether 15:23–25).

Where was Ether during this time?

14 And as he dwelt in the cavity of a rock he made the aremainder of this record, viewing the destructions which came upon the people, by night (Ether 13:14).

18 Wherefore, it came to pass that in the first year that Ether dwelt in the cavity of a rock, there were many people who were slain by the sword of those asecret combinations, fighting against Coriantumr that they might obtain the kingdom (Ether 13:18).

What was the result of these battles?

30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.

31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and afell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.

32 And it came to pass that aCoriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life (Ether 15:30–32).

  • Quote: "The unusual and graphic tale of Shiz’s death (Ether 15:29–32) has been discussed by modern medical authorities. People have long wondered how Shiz could raise himself up, fall, and gasp for breath if his head had been cut off. Dr. M. Gary Hadfield, M.D., professor of pathology (neuropathology) at the Medical College of Virginia, [stated]: ‘Shiz’s death struggle illustrates the classic reflex posture that occurs in both humans and animals when the upper brain stem . . . is disconnected from the brain. The extensor muscles of the arms and legs contract, and this reflex action could cause Shiz to raise up on his hands. . . . The brain stem is located inside the base of the skull and is relatively small. It connects the brain proper, or cerebrum, with the spinal cord in the neck. Coriantumr was obviously too exhausted to do a clean job. His stroke evidently strayed a little too high. He must have cut off Shiz’s head through the base of the skull. . . . Significantly, this nervous system phenomenon (decerebrate rigidity) was first reported in 1898, long after the Book of Mormon was published.’ Thus, the account of the staggering death of Shiz is not a figment of dramatic imagination, but the Book of Mormon account is plausibly consistent with medical science" (D. Kelly Ogden, Andrew C. Skinner Verse by Verse: The Book of Mormon: Vol. 2, Deseret Book). 

What happened to Coriantumr?

21 And they gave an account of one aCoriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons (Omni 1:21).

0:00:00 Tammy Uzelac Hall: So do you guys have a favorite scripture? One that really speaks to your soul or perfectly defines who you are? Maybe one that you use as your go-to scripture when times are really tough or, how about that one that you put on your missionary plaque? I don't know, maybe your ward did those, maybe they didn't, but the one you put on there that kind of defined you as a missionary. Well, today as we study Ether Chapters 12 through 15, I am so excited to talk about what may have been Hyrum Smith's, go-to scripture at a time when he needed it most. And we're going to study what Andrew C. Skinner and D. Kelly Ogden call, "One of the most significant single verse sermons in all of scripture." Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the "Come, Follow Me" lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're joining us for the first time, I just wanna make sure that you know how to use this podcast. So it's about an hour long and you can listen to it all at once and enjoy in one sitting or...

0:00:57 TH: My favorite part is, it's broken up into six different segments, and each segment is about 10 to 12 minutes each. So you can just do a little bit, take a little bite each day and chew on it and absorb everything we're studying. You'll hear a little bit of music when the segment's over, so that you know when to stop, and if you're like my seminary teaching friend in Florida, her name's Elizabeth Danforth, then she tells me, "You just won't even be able to stop. Sorry, you're gonna have to just listen all at once," apparently. Wink, wink, just kidding. Okay, another awesome thing about our study group... This is my favorite part, because I get to invite two friends to come on and discuss and talk about the scriptures, and so this week we have Abe Mills and Tyler Collet and Tyler's mustache.


0:01:39 TH: Hi Guys.

0:01:41 Abe Mills: Hi, Tammy. How are you doing?

0:01:41 TH: Abe, Tyler and I, we all, three of us, we go way back and I laugh 'cause I'm like, we go back to the days of Girbaud jeans, Pizza Hut and church dances...


0:01:52 AM: I had forgotten about Girbaud... I'm sorry...

0:01:54 TH: I know you had a pair...

0:01:55 AM: Oh I had like a couple of pair of Girbauds...


0:02:00 TH: I love it. So yeah, the three of us grew up together. And when I thought of who could I better ask to tell the story of Ether than you two just... I knew, this was it.

0:02:10 Tyler Collet: Absolutely...

0:02:10 TH: Oh, I'm so excited. Okay, if you guys wanna know more about my friends, you can read their bios and see their pictures in our show notes, and you'll find those at Alright, so how about that for an intro, you guys. The one of the most magnificent sermons in all of scripture, can you guess what verse it is, maybe don't guess, I don't want you to give away, okay, forget it... I don't even want you to guess because this is gonna be so much fun and then the surprise is gonna be ruined and lah urgh... So let's just jump right into the scriptures. So friends, grab your scriptures and let's dig in. Now, faith is probably, in my definition, the biggest little word there ever was, because it means so many things to so many people. And so I wanted to try something with the three of us just to see how big this little word is, and I want you to finish this statement for me. Faith is blank.

0:03:00 TC: Faith is real. I've seen it work.

0:03:05 AM: So I'll take what Tyler said, and I'll add one more word. So I'm gonna to wanna say faith is real belief. I mean we always talk about belief, but it's like if you really believe, it will take you to action. It'll change the way that you act, the things that you do, the things that you think... It's easy to say, I believe or I have faith, but it's a lot more difficult to show that you actually believe and have faith.

0:03:32 TC: I like that.

0:03:33 TH: Both of you great job finishing that. Today in our discussion in Ether, we're gonna talk a lot about faith. And I want us to start with just the very first teaching about faith in Ether, in Ether Chapter 12, verses three through four. So Ether is the prophet now, I'm gonna read Ether chapter 12 versus three through four. And this is Moroni saying what Ether had said, so as I read these verses of scripture, let's mark anything that stands out to us about what faith is. "For he did cry from the morning, even down into the going of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance. Lest they should be destroyed saying unto them that, by faith, all things are fulfilled. Wherefore whoso believeth in God might with surety, hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works being led to glorify God." What did you guys mark?

0:04:34 TC: Anchor's, one of the first words that stood out to me. And when I think of an anchor, I automatically think about a boat anchor. That's interesting that it's used in this context because with faith, that helps us keep us where we need to be so we don't drift off.

0:04:49 TH: Knowing the definition of faith, according to this verse, what role does faith play in a COVID world?

0:04:56 AM: So the fact that you started off the whole segment by saying, "Hey, do you have a favorite scripture?" Usually, this is my go-to scripture.

0:05:04 TH: Oh, really?

0:05:06 AM: Yes, Ether 12:4.

0:05:08 TH: Okay, tell me why. I love that.

0:05:10 AM: So I focus on... This is it... The whole thing I say, "Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world." And that's where I stop, I'm like, there we are. This year, we've had racial strife, angst, everybody has issues and things that come up and challenges that we face. But if we believe in God, we can with surety hope for a better world, which means that whatever dumps were in, that whatever valley this has come into our life, that that there is always a hope for something that will be better than that, but it's only gonna come if you have faith, if you always are bounding in good works, and if you're being led to glorify God, so it places the responsibility on that better world on our shoulders.

0:05:56 TH: I got chills the whole time you were talking. I mean, seriously, the fact that that's your favorite scripture, that was incredible. I think what stood out to me as you were talking about that though, is thinking of just... I'm trying to imagine a world where if we all glorify God, if we all are bound in good works, how could it not be a better world? Wow, I just... My mind is swirling right now, I love everything you said. That was good. So good. So in the next segment we're gonna go in, and we're gonna continue our discussion to see what else Moroni is trying to teach us about this biggest little word.

Segment 2

0:06:27 TH: We're just gonna jump right back into the scripture, so let's go to Ether Chapter 12, Verse 6, and Tyler, will you please read that for us?

0:06:37 TC: "And now I, Moroni would speak somewhat concerning these things. I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen. Wherefore dispute not because you see not for you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

0:06:54 TH: Now, come on, help me out with is, how does that play back into what you just finished talking about, Abe and Tyler?

0:07:00 AM: Well, if we've learned anything this year is that you see something and you think that you're seeing something and it's a certain way, and somebody else will say, "No, that's not what it was. It was this." And so when you think about faith, when we talk about it in a spiritual sense, that is something that's not seen it, I mean, there's a reason why, it's because everybody can see things in a different way, but one thing they can ever take from you is the personal revelation that you've received from God through the Holy Ghost. And that's the cool thing about it, is that nobody else can step in there and go, "Well, no, that didn't really... " You have no idea if it happened or not, because you weren't there, you weren't...

0:07:38 TH: Right.

0:07:39 AM: In my situation, and it's very personal.

0:07:43 TC: Tammy, you didn't say that Tyler and a scholar was gonna be on your show today.

0:07:48 TH: I should have set it up a little better right now.

0:07:49 TC: You know what I'm gonna take that... What Abe just said, because that's a home run. And I didn't think about it in the way that he mentioned, where if you see it, it can be interpreted different ways. Growing up in the Show-Me state, that's what Missouri is, the Show-Me State, was huge for me. When I moved out of Missouri, I would always say, but show me... I'm not gonna believe until you show me, show me, show me, right? But even if it were shown to me or anybody in that regard, it can be interpreted in so many different ways, and I really appreciate that Abe, because I hadn't thought of that before. So thank you Abe, that was great, that was awesome.

0:08:29 TH: You know what, and I think what's so interesting about what both of you shared is that idea about having your own witness, and according to this verse in Ether, that witness often doesn't come until after the trial of our faith, which many of us understand perfectly. So I want us to cross-reference this verse with the scripture in the New Testament, so let's put 1st Peter, Chapter 1, Verse 7, right next to Verse 6. This is such a great cross-reference for our trial of faith. And Abe, will you read that for us when you get there.

0:08:58 AM: "That the trial of your faith being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ."

0:09:10 TH: Thank you. Now, look at that verse and think of the trials of your faith, with hindsight being 2020, I wanna know, is there any specific experience you have where that trial of faith was more precious than gold?

0:09:26 TC: I was the new missionary, I was a greenie, and my training comparion and I, we went to a member's home, less active, and they had a new born baby, the baby was home with them, but they were told by medical personnel that, "Your baby doesn't have long to live." And I don't remember the cause or what exactly was happening with their baby. I remember the mother, and she was the less active one, and I remember her coming to us when we were there at their house and just falling and saying, "Please give my baby a blessing." And I'm sure she thought, "Hey, if the missionaries are gonna give a blessing, it's gonna happen," and I thought the same thing, and I'm thinking to myself, "Yeah, let's give this baby a blessing, let's heal this baby, this is awesome. It's what missionaries do," right?

0:10:18 TC: Having never given a blessing before, my companion did it. As I'm listening to the words, I'm like, "Wait a minute, you're not healing this baby, you're not taking away its illness. In fact, you're doing kind of just the opposite, you're blessing mom that she will be able to get through this when her baby dies," which is ultimately what happened, and that kind of shook me for a minute, 'cause I was like, "Wait a minute, we're the missionaries, we're supposed to be able to fix things." And hindsight, that showed me that it's not always going to be easy, it's not always gonna be roses, it's not always what we want when it comes to our faith, but it's always about God's plan and God's will.

0:11:11 TH: Thank you Tyler. What happened to that couple?

0:11:13 TC: I don't know.

0:11:15 TH: That'd be an story to find out. Thanks for sharing that though.

0:11:19 TC: Yeah.

0:11:20 TH: And that's great insight. Thank you. Abe?

0:11:22 AM: Yeah, what a story. When we talk about the trial of faith, the thought that came to me was that our trial of faith is kind of taking the eyes that we see the world with and just opening them and seeing what God sees. I mean, this happened many times in my life, but just one of the things, it's just with our group, Jericho Road. We knew God had inspired us to get together, I mean, it was... We all had felt that He'd put us together at a certain time for certain things, and we all thought, "Man, we're gonna sing and dance and get rich," and like every young artist thinks. And I can remember sitting there and our producer just said to us like, "I hear you guys talking about all this stuff that you guys wanna do and how you wanna travel around world and do all these concerts like, are you willing to do this? Does it mean enough to you to do it for a year, two years, three years without ever getting paid? Are you willing to stick it out and see it through?" Is that important... Is the message that you feel like you have that important to you? And that was when I realized, we're not gonna make no money, uh. [laughter]

0:12:29 TC: But I wonder how many people's lives that you touched through your music though, Abe.

0:12:33 AM: And this is the thing, I just got a message this morning from one of the guys in the group, a friend had sent him a Facebook message that he had seen where a person was going through a lot of trials, and he said, "I remembered this group that I used to listen to when I was in middle school, and I found their songs on YouTube and started listening to a minute, it made me feel more peace in my life right now."

0:12:58 TH: Abe, thank you for sharing that because this was a cool moment. As you were sharing that, this is what stood out to me when you said, "Are you willing to stick this out?" That phrase, that might be my take away because I'm thinking about Tyler, the story you told, and I'm thinking about my own life when times have been hard and when you're in the midst of your trial of your faith, I'm imagining God saying to me, "Look, are you willing to stick this out 'cause I got a way better plan for you." And what's so cool about that idea is go to Ether Chapter 12, and verses 13 through 22, there are all examples of faith that most definitely came through trials and sticking it out in different ways, and I asked you guys ahead of time to read over those, is there one specific example of faith that stood out to you?

0:13:44 AM: The one that sticks out to me is the one with the Ammon, 'cause it says it's the faith of Ammon and his brother in which rose so great a miracle upon the Lamanites, who at that time were supposed to be their enemies. And we live in a world right now where everybody feels like they have enemies, man, it's like...

0:13:57 TH: Yeah.

0:13:58 AM: Well, guess what, they said, "You know what, they're not our enemies, they're our brothers, we will love them, we will teach them, we will serve them. Ammon was the best servant, and he went and served them, and because of that, they actually came closer to God because of his service and his example, and I think that if we approach that with all of these world-wide divisive things right now, I think people will learn to love each other and regardless of all of the things they have.

0:14:29 TH: Abe, I love that you chose that... 'cause those are sort of like the Jericho Road of Book of Mormon guys.

0:14:35 AM: That's right.

0:14:36 TH: You really just sticked it out, 'cause you're not gonna get anything out of it, you're not gonna be rich, and it's gonna be really, really hard, but you summed it up, but the example that you're going to be, and the service that you're going to give will touch countless lives. Tyler, what stood out to you?

0:14:49 TC: I love Jared, I think that's a perfect example of faith now. Also that goes along with that, it makes me question my own faith...

0:15:00 TH: Sure.

0:15:00 TC: Because he was so faithful to be able to see the finger of God, and then after that, there's nothing that could be kept from him. I mean, wow. I'm trying to fathom how much faith the brother of Jared must have had, I mean, we've been taught that faith, the size of a mustard seed could move mountains, this is taught... To be able see the finger of God, and then from there it's anything and everything.

0:15:20 TH: And look at Verse 30, Tyler, read Verse 30, 'cause you just quoted that scripture, and this is perfect.

0:15:24 TC: "For the brother of Jared said unto the Mountain Zerin, remove, and it was removed. And if he had not faith, it would not have moved. Wherefore that workest after men have faith."

0:15:37 TH: I can't wait to find out where that mountain is like... Can someone point out... When we get to see God, I'm like, "Where is Zerin exactly, and where did he move it to?" That's amazing, it worked. Faith, really...

0:15:47 TC: I think that God's work needs to be a part of it, right? We just can't move a mountain because we want to move a mountain, and we have faith that we can move a mountain. We expect it to be moved. It's gotta be part of God's plan. Somehow, some way, shape or form, you think Moses in parting the Red Sea. Could I part Utah lake? No.

0:16:06 TH: No, we don't need to.

0:16:09 TC: No.

0:16:09 TH: I mean, but I have to say this though, because when you just said, "Is it really important for me to part the Utah lake?" No, it's not. But there's something else I think of when we talk about this and that is, that, Tyler, you're still alive. Because there have been so many times when you have been in danger and you actually have a really cool story about a SWAT call where you were shot at and your life was spared, and you start every SWAT call with a prayer. I know you do and you have even shared how, as you're driving to that SWAT call you're praying for best case scenario to turn out, and the faith that is involved with that moment in your life... I mean, can you tell us a little bit about that moment?

0:16:47 TC: Well, you're absolutely right, I do start every SWAT call the same exact way. But in the case that you're speaking of, it was in Provo of all places, and I thought... I saw this is Provo, nothing happens in Provo. So I don't need all of my protective gear that I would normally take on a warrant, and in this particular case, still said a prayer before we advanced to the house and then things went south. They definitely took all of us by surprise, shots were fired. And I didn't give it really second thoughts on, "Hey, Heavenly Father, did you hear my prayer?" And it wasn't until afterwards, as we were debriefing and everything with Provo Police Department and doing their investigation... It wasn't until at that point, I was like, "Wow, I'm really glad that I said a prayer." I'm fortunate in that, in doing this a lot of the times, and saying prayers, I've had faith, and I still have faith, that Heavenly Father is gonna hear that, and I have trust that His will is gonna be done, whatever that is going to necessarily mean, I have faith that that will happen.

0:17:58 TH: Wow, Tyler, thank you for adding that. "His will be done," because there's a lot of times where people are like, "Well, I pray and I have faith, and it doesn't turn out," but that's the whole point of a trial of faith, and they all look different for everyone, and sometimes faith does work out, which was what makes it so great? Let's read this quote because I really like this by president Joseph Fielding Smith, and here's what he had to say about faith and the need for a trial of faith. Abe, will you read this quote for us, please?

0:18:25 AM: "No man can obtain salvation without a thorough trial of faith and obedience to the principles of eternal truth, which have been established from the beginning for the salvation and exaltation of mankind."

0:18:35 TH: I mean, just the thought you can't even obtain salvation without a trial of faith.

0:18:40 AM: Wow.

0:18:41 TH: But it goes back to what you said, Abe, I just think really, for me, are you willing to stick this out as hard as it is, that's gonna be with me for... I'm gonna put that in vinyl on my wall somewhere. Like it was so profound when you that, I loved it.

0:18:55 AM: I always tell my kids this, and this is one of the reasons why I love sports so much. When you win a game and it's 40 to nothing, it's not nearly as fun as a game that comes down to the wire that you have to make a great play on at the end to win, it just... It can't give you that type of satisfaction as you performing in a situation where you have to reach down inside when the chips against you. And so I always tell the kids, if you easily get everything, then you'll never really value it, and so I think that's just the spiritual version of this.

0:19:28 TH: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks Abe, that was awesome. So in talking about these trials of our faith, and for those of you listening, whatever your trial looks like, it will be more precious than gold, it will give you honor. I just think, what's so beautiful about it, as long as you're willing to stick it out. And so it's the way that we can obtain salvation and it's gonna fortify our faith. So in the next segment, we're gonna see how this platitude that... You know the platitude? I don't know, I love 'Steel Magnolias,' so in the movie they say, "That which doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." Well, we're gonna see in the next segment that that actually might be true.

Segment 3

0:20:09 TH: Okay guys, we're gonna talk about working out. Because I know both of you workout, so here are some questions that I have for you guys, 'cause I don't workout, I couldn't run for my own life, I've said that before. Okay, first of all, how often should you do it, how often should people workout?

0:20:23 TC: I think every day you should be doing something, even if it's not like a heavy workout, you gotta to do something every day to get stronger.

0:20:31 TH: How long will it take to see results?

0:20:34 TC: Are you combining diet into that too, nutrients and all of that stuff?

0:20:36 TH: Oh jeez, so there's more to just lifting weights then? I gotta watch what I'm eating, you're telling me?

0:20:45 TC: To a degree, but I agree with Abe, you've gotta be doing something every day, and whether that's just going outside on a walk for five or 10 minutes. In fact, our Sheriff, I ask him, "How do you stay so thin?" And he told me I don't ever drink my calories, and I thought, "Huh, okay, I like that," because...

0:21:04 TH: Do you have another tip? Is there something...

0:21:07 TC: That's a good start. Right?

0:21:09 TH: That is a good start. Okay, so let me ask this, what happens if you skip a day, if you're on this trajectory to really get stronger and you're eating healthy, you're working out every day, what if you skip a day?

0:21:19 AM: The worst thing that can happen if you skip a day is that in your mind, it's easier if you just skip another day.

0:21:28 TC: Well said.

0:21:32 TH: That's good. That's good. Let me ask you this then, when you get into the habit of working out, does it get easier?

0:21:37 TC: As you are consistent, it becomes much easier.

0:21:41 AM: I would agree. You're always gonna have certain days that stick out to you like, "Oh man, it's really hard to do it today," maybe you had a late night and you do your workouts in the morning, so it's like, "Oh man, I gotta get up no matter what," but overall it becomes way easier because you start to actually recognize how great it makes you feel. When you haven't done it for a long time and you get started back up, I don't think it makes you feel great at all, to be honest. And it's similar with scriptures, like I've had that situation where you're like, "Man, I haven't read my scriptures for a while," and then you start reading it and it's like your mind and your heart, it's not easily turned on and off, the better you do it every day, the better the habit.

0:22:25 TH: Okay Abe, that's perfect, 'cause that was my next thing is, let's draw some spiritual parallels to all the questions that I just asked you. Because everything you just said is perfect, so the question was, how often should you do it? And you just said Abe, every day, reading your scriptures every day. How long does it take to see results? That's my question. Is there a difference between spiritual results versus physical results? Is one quicker than the other do you think?

0:22:49 TC: Depends on what your goal is. So it's all based on the individual.

0:22:56 AM: I agree with that, and I think that to take it to the spiritual level... I think that you can see how it affects your life, and I don't think it takes that long. I feel like, man, it just get... Even if it's just like a little bit. That's better than doing absolutely nothing.

0:23:13 TH: Well, I have this thought too, thinking about working out, because if you stop working out, we know your muscles go into atrophy, and my question is, if that happens, can you start up again and get back to where you were before and maybe even be stronger, or is it just one and done, sorry no more chances?

0:23:32 TC: No, you can always build up on it.

0:23:32 AM: You can always do that. Yes.

0:23:34 TH: So we are gonna read Ether Chapter 12, Verse 27, and this is it, this is the verse that is called the most magnificent single verse sermon in all of scripture. And a little bit of background for this is Moroni is writing, and he is worried that when people read the book of Mormon, they're going to mock. He says in Verse 23, They're going to mock or make fun of these scriptures because of his weakness, he says, our weakness in writing, and he's worried, he's like, "We're not perfect at this, and we have weakness." And so he says all of this to Heavenly Father, and then he gives his answer in verse 27. Tyler, will you please read verse 27 for us?

0:24:14 TC: And if men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness, I give unto men weakness that they may be humble, and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble this house before me, for if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

0:24:30 AM: This verse, I think it basically sums up the need for a savior when it comes to God's plan, because it's that view, we have a certain view, and then once we realize that what we were seeing is not real, then we actually can bring the actual true vision to light, when we trust in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

0:24:53 TH: Excellent Abe, great, great explanation of that. And here's what's cool about this verse, first I have to point this out. In verse 27, I want us to circle the word weakness, and everyone please right next to it, singular. Because so often that we hear this when people read, "I will show unto men their weaknesses," like sometimes we get hung up on how Satan wants us to think, you're not good enough, look at all the things you do bad, and that's not Heavenly Father, we're gonna be shown our weakness, meaning we're mortal, we're human beings and we need his help, like you said, Abe. And once that happens, I love how it ends, and if you have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. And so Elder Eyring said this great quote about this idea and this specific scripture, so let's go there, and Abe, will you read this quote for us please?

0:25:45 AM: Those who do not see their weaknesses, do not progress. Your awareness of your weakness is a blessing as it helps you remain humble and keeps you turning to the Savior. The Spirit not only comforts you, but He is also the agent by which the atonement works a change in your very nature, then weak things become strong.

0:26:06 TH: Thank you. Now, I asked you before we met to think about this specific verse because I wanted an example in your lives, how have you experienced your weakness being made stronger?

0:26:18 TC: After my divorce, I fell away from the church, and my biggest thing was tithing, and I did that with the reasoning of, well, because I can't afford child support, so it's either tithing or child support, which one do you want? And I noticed that, I noticed by not paying that I could see the pattern that my life was going, and it wasn't a good pattern, it was one for the worst. And then that's when I met your... Well, not met your sister, but I got in touch with your sister and we started dating and things kind of started going back on the uppity up, and to this day, I've never had any of the same issues that I had in the past. And I specifically relate that to me, paying tithing, I've got a testimony of it now, my faith in that, it has increased, 'cause that was my weakness, and I firmly believe that God has made that a strength for me now.

0:27:14 TH: Wow, I didn't know that about you. Can I just ask, what was it like when you paid that first tithing payment?

0:27:21 TC: I was scared, but I was also kind of relieved at the same time, because I knew this whole time I should have been doing it, but I didn't, and so it's like, okay, I feel like I can start over now, I can start anew. And for the first little bit, finances were tough, but I kept paying and the Lord kept blessing.

0:27:43 TH: And he has. I've seen that throughout knowing you the past 14 years.

0:27:46 TC: Absolutely.

0:27:47 TH: So that's awesome. Thank you, Tyler. What about you abe?

0:27:51 AM: As far as my weakness, I have many, but I used to have this real temper, and it was like, especially around sports and these types of things. So I was a walk-on at BYU, back then they had a JV football team. And I remember going to a game that we had against Air Force and a guy did something to me on the field, and I got angry and I just blew up and... It was really ugly. It was just really ugly. And I made a fool of myself and I didn't represent the school well. And I remember we were headed back, and a guy that was on the team who I looked up to kinda said to me, "Abe, I was really disappointed." He says, "You're a better guy than that," and those words like, oh man, that was like the most humbling thing that I could ever hear.

0:28:38 AM: And it changed kind of the way that I looked at life. I was always a happy-go-lucky guy, and tried to have a great attitude. But I realized that I had to let go of anger and things like that, and I had to do it early in the process, and I knew that I had to trust in God to be able to do that, I knew that I had to trust in that person that told me that, and I think it helped change me, but it took a while for me to be humble enough to let God work in me, but I think it makes a big difference in how I approach life now, and I would be happy, but not as happy as I am now if I hadn't listened to that. And I know that that was all God that made that happen, and I couldn't have done it without my Savior and without lots of friends that cared about me.

0:29:28 TH: That is a great example of that. Well, and here's what's so cool about what you guys just shared is everyone's trial of faith is their trial of faith, no matter what it looks like, and you both share different experiences, but it was so cool 'cause it was a powerful witness to all of us listening that God takes our trials and our weakness and He makes us stronger with that. That was so good. Thank you for sharing that.

0:29:50 TH: I wanna put a cross-reference next to Ether Chapter 12, Verse 27, let's put Doctrine and Covenants 35, verse 13, and I will read this. "Wherefore I call upon the weak things of the world, those who are unlearned and despised to thresh the nations by the power of my Spirit." So what's so cool about this verse is that word 'thresh,' I really like it. Because in my mind, I'm like thinking in a movie, just like...


0:30:19 TH: Thresh things. But it's kind of cool because when you're reading the scriptures, it says that the field is white already to harvest, so the Lord saying we're ready to go and gather all the wheat now, all of it, go get it all, but we don't want the wheat, we want the kernels that are inside the wheat; the kernels are us, His children who He loves. And we have to get the kernels out and you can't just shake it and the kernels fall out, you can't pop it open, it takes a great deal of effort, and what is required is threshing, and this is what it means: According to religious scholars, Smith and Sjodahl in olden times, this is done by treading out the grain on a threshing floor.

0:30:55 TH: So it's the going for the messengers into the gospel among all the nations and they're trampling the wheat sheaves on this hard floor, it takes a great deal of energy and strength to do this to produce a kernel, and then once the kernel comes out of the wheat, the kernels are carefully gathered up and then the straw is just left. We don't need that anymore. So the idea to thresh the nations is to preach the Gospel to everyone and gather in the Lord's children, the kernels, and the work that it takes to do that, I just... That idea is incredible. So He will take the weak things to do something so difficult, you bet He will. That's us, I love this verse.

0:31:32 TH: And so in the next segment, we're gonna learn about two specific men who were unlearned, who were despised, and they definitely threshed the nations when they were on the earth, and their names still continues to do the same today.

Segment 4

TH: Did either one of you guys have a missionary plaque? Did your words do that when you went out on your mission?

0:31:55 TC: Oh yes.

0:31:55 AM: I don't remember that. I don't remember. It's been that long.

0:31:57 TH: You're fine. And they put a nice picture...

0:32:00 TC: Look at the hair.

0:32:03 TH: It was in the '80s. I'll put this is my show notes so you guys can see how fantastic I look. If you didn't have one, a missionary plaque, they would put your picture on it, and then they'd ask you what your favorite scripture was. Did you have a favorite scripture you put on yours, Tyler?

0:32:18 TC: Yeah, that was Doctrine and Covenants Section 4.

0:32:22 TH: Nice. I did mine, mine was second Timothy, Chapter 4, Verse 7, I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. I only chose that 'cause a guy I was dating at the time, put the same scripture on his missionary plaque, and I thought, "Well, we'll probably get married, so I'll just use the same one as him, and our kids will know that we were destined to be together forever." That's a true story. Didn't marry him. And now I look at that scripture, I'm like, "I don't even know that scripture existed, I just saw it on his missionary plaque." So Abe, you shared with us at the beginning though, what your favorite scripture was. Ether Chapter 12, Verse 4, which I loved. Ty, do you have a favorite scripture, a go-to?

0:32:58 TC: Not off the top of my head.

0:33:00 TH: Okay, no worries. So here's why we started out talking about our favorite scriptures or our go-to scriptures, because I've often wondered if Ether, Chapter 12, verses 37-38 were Hyrum Smith's go-to scripture, and here's why: I want us to cross-reference Ether, Chapter 12, verses 37-38 with Doctrine and Covenants, section 135, verses 4-5. Let's go there and Abe, will you please read for us just verse four?

0:33:28 AM: When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said, I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning, I have a conscience void of offense towards God and towards all men, I shall die innocent and it shall yet be said of me he was murdered in cold blood. The same morning after Hyrum made ready to go, shall it be said to the slaughter? Yes, for so it was, he read the following paragraph near the close of the 12th chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon and turned down the leaf upon it.

0:34:08 TH: Okay, how cool is that? So according to this verse, Hyrum Smith's Book of Mormon, had this page folded down and these verses marked. And so in my scriptures I have my page folded down, so you can see, I just keep it folded permanently as a reminder that in Hyrum Smith's copy of the Book of Mormon that page was folded down with these verses marked. So we're gonna read the verses that he had marked as he was on his way to Carthage jail. And it's Verses 37 and 38 in Ether chapter 12. So let's go back to Ether 12, and let's read Verses 37-38 and Tyler will you read those? And as we do, I just want you to consider, why would Hyrum have folded down this page and marked these verses.

0:34:48 TC: And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me, if they have not charity, it mattereth not unto thee. Thou hast been faithful. Wherefore thy garment shall be made clean. And because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my father, and now I, Moroni bid farewell unto the gentiles. Yea, and also on to my brethren, whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment seat of Christ, where all men shall know that the garments are not spotted with your blood.

0:35:24 TH: What are your thoughts? Why would he have those marked?

0:35:27 TC: He's carrying out God's will, he's remaining humble. He's gonna be made spotless. And voluntarily going forward is a strength, and it says "and because thou hast seen thy weakness, thou shalt be made strong," and so to me, that's kind of the calm that we read in Doctrine and Covenants where you know you're gonna be murdered, but yet you're as calm as the summer morning. So that's how I relate that.

0:35:55 AM: And I think it goes back to what we were talking about before, which is that there's a certain calmness and a certain satisfaction that comes from just doing the right thing. He knew that he was going as a lamb to the slaughter, he knew that there was death that was coming, but also he knew that that's exactly where he needed to be and there was a piece that came to him because of it, and not only that, it seems as if he had an understanding of how this was only one part of his journey and that his journey would continue after life. After his life was ended.

0:36:27 TH: You know, Abe, I really like how you just said, he seems to have understood that this was just one part of his journey, I like that. Well, having grown up in Missouri and we've all been to Carthage, do you remember what that was like when you first saw it?

0:36:42 TC: Amazing. Peaceful, even though a violent act occurred there, it was still peaceful.

0:36:50 AM: Yeah, I absolutely love Carthage. We were in the Nauvoo Pageant twice as a family, and every time still that was my favorite thing to go see, and it was because of the peace that you feel there. It's just understanding that there were people there who were killed unjustly, and that they went there knowing that that would... That that was going to happen to them. Because it was what God wanted at that particular time. It was their time.

0:37:20 TH: Abe I like that you said that because these men had faith and they were praying that they wouldn't end up dead... Right?

0:37:27 AM: Yeah. I'm pretty sure that Joseph's meant to have that talk with God like, "Is there any other way? If there was any other way, please let this cup pass from me.

0:37:37 TH: What stood out to me in verse 37 was the part where he says, If, at the very beginning of Verse 37 in Ether chapter 12, If they have not charity it mattereth not unto thee, thou hast been faithful." And in my own words, I'm saying in my head that's basically like, "But they're not nice to me, they're just... Everyone's so mean. Can we catch a break?" And Heavenly Father's like, "It doesn't matter as long as... If you're faithful to me, if you have faith, if you love me and are doing good works, let people be mean." And I think that I often find myself saying that to my own kids, when they're in the drama, right" "So and so's mean, so-and so hurt my feelings." You're like, "Yeah. It doesn't matter."

0:38:14 TH: How do you even... It's so hard and you can't be like... "Just believe in God and everything will work out." But it kinda does. Here's Hyrum about to die, and I'm thinking, Hyrum and Joseph were like, "These people are really mean to us." And the Lord's like, "It doesn't matter. You've got faith. You're gonna be okay." So for everyone who's listening, my challenge to you with this would be to find your go-to scripture and fold down the page...

0:38:38 TH: Fold down Ether Chapter 12, for sure, so you can remember, everytime you come back that that was where Hyrum had his Book of Mormon folded down. Okay. I just have to say this really quick my very first year teaching seminary, I read section 135 Verse 4, and I read it as being Joseph Smith's page that was folded down... Not Hyrum's, I read it wrong. And I can remember the first time I taught a class, I had challenged them all year to read the Book of Mormon, and then I went to this verse right here, and I said, "Okay. Fold your page down, this is the page that Joseph Smith had folded in his Book of Mormon before he went to Carthage." And one of my students, [chuckle] he was a total... He's the funniest kid I've ever had. And he was struggling to finish the Book of Mormon by the end of the year, and when he folded that page down in his Book of Mormon, he raised his hand and he said, "So Sister Uzelac, Joseph Smith didn't finish reading the Book or Mormon either?" [laughter] He died before he could finish reading... [laughter] I looked at him, I'm like, "Oh. You sweet boy." And then I realized I taught it wrong and had to go back and repent.

0:39:40 TH: "Okay. It was Hyrum it wasn't Joseph, sorry." And the kids were like, "So Hyrum didn't finish either?" "Listen just finish reading the Book of Mormon. Alright? Geez." Anyway...

0:39:49 TC: That was funny.

0:39:50 TH: So, whatever your go-to scripture is, I highly recommend find it, highlight it and fold it down in your Book or Mormon, so you can remember that that is your go-to and whenever you need it, just go to the folded page and whatever scripture it is, I... My challenge to all of us is to thresh the nations with our go-to scripture, maybe put it on your social media posts, if you have a Facebook page, an Instagram page, just one random day, just put your favorite scripture out there. So that's my challenge. So in the next segment, we're going to see what instruction Moroni had for us and how it can help us thresh the nations today.

Segment 5

0:40:28 TH: Alright. Guys, I have a pop quiz for you. Do either of you know the 10th Article Of Faith?

0:40:33 TC: I defer over to Abe.


0:40:38 AM: I'm gonna use a lifeline.

0:40:40 TH: Yeah. Can you call or phone a friend?


0:40:43 TC: Wait that was my lifeline... It was going to Abe. [chuckle]

0:40:46 TH: Okay. You at least know how it starts... Started out.

0:40:50 AM: We believe...

0:40:51 TH: Nice. Perfect. [chuckle] Okay. Excellent. Alright. That 10th Article Of Faith. It's a doozy. It's a long one. "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the 10 tribes that Zion, the new Jerusalem, will be built upon the American continent, that Christ will reign personally upon the Earth, and that the earth will be renewed to receive its paradisaical glory." I think I did it. Now as a 10-year-old when I was memorizing these, I didn't know what any of that stuff meant, I just memorized it so I could get the cookie for my teacher, 'cause she gave us cookies if we memorized the Articles Of Faith. So today though, we're gonna talk about this verse.

0:41:24 TC: Well, a question...

0:41:26 TH: Sure.

0:41:28 TC: So what does paradisaical mean? .

0:41:30 TH: Oh. That's a really good question. And it's.

0:41:33 AM: At least this is what I thought it meant. You can tell me if you think...

0:41:36 TH: Hit it...

0:41:38 AM: So without having looking it up, it sounds a lot like paradise.

0:41:42 TC: I'm glad you said that, 'cause that's what I was thinking too.

0:41:45 AM: Yeah. What do you think Tammy or... Do you know better?

0:41:45 TH: No. I think it's the exact same thing... Like just beautiful, amazing, we can't even... A paradisaical glory, how incredible that will be. And then I just looked it up and you're right, Abe that's the definition, relating or resembling paradise.

0:42:00 AM: Cool.

0:42:00 TH: Good job, but that's how I always interpreted it to be... A paradisaical glory. Just paradise. Incredible. And it will be... It'll be so awesome. It's a good question. Okay, so I'm just curious, you guys, in there in that verse, it talks about this new Jerusalem, do you guys know anything... What do you know about the new Jerusalem?

0:42:18 AM: I hear that the streets are paved with gold...

0:42:21 TH: Yeah. [chuckle]

0:42:22 AM: No. I'm just kidding. I don't know a lot about the new Jerusalem other than that, what we know, which is that it's here somewhere on this continent.

0:42:31 TC: I know that it'll be a place of peace and safety.

0:42:34 TH: Excellent. Very good.

0:42:34 TC: And that's really about it. [chuckle]

0:42:37 TH: Okay. That's perfect, 'cause a lot of people don't know about this. And in Ether Chapter 13, it's gonna teach us about this phrase and what we need to know about it. So let's dive in and we're gonna take a careful look at some of these verses that are gonna help us understand what all of it means... Okay, in Ether chapter 13, let's go there... It's going to teach us about three Jerusalems in this chapter, there's three that we need to know about. So we're gonna start with Ether chapter 13, we're going to go versus one through five, so we'll... You each just take a turn reading these verses.

0:43:09 AM: "And now I Moroni proceed to finish my record concerning the destruction of the people of whom I have been writing."

0:43:16 TC: "For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether, for he truly told them of all things from the beginning of man, and that after the waters had receded off of the face of this land, it became a choice land above all others, other lands, a chosen Land of the Lord, wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve Him who dwell upon the face thereof."

0:43:38 AM: "And that it was the place of the new Jerusalem, which would come down out of heaven and the Holy sanctuary of the Lord."

0:43:47 TC: "Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ and He spake concerning a new Jerusalem upon this land."

0:43:53 AM: "And as he spake also concerning the House of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come. After it should be destroyed, it should be built up again, a Holy city unto the Lord, wherefore it cannot be a new Jerusalem, for it had been in a time of old, but it should be built up again and become a Holy city of the Lord, and it should be built unto the house of Israel."

0:44:18 TH: Thank you. Okay. So I don't know if any time you've read that and just been like, "Da da da da da, okay." And then you just keep on moving. Because there's a lot to take in there. So let's just go through these carefully. Verse Three, you're gonna put number one next to it, this is specifically speaking about the City Of Enoch, when it says the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, you can cross-reference that with Moses Chapter seven, Verses 18 through 19. And then Moses chapter seven, verse 62, specifically tells us that when Christ comes again, the entire City Of Enoch is going to join him in the clouds to come back down on the Earth to live during the millennial reign. How cool will that be? So that's the City of Enoch, that is Verse 3, so put a number one. That's the first New Jerusalem.

0:45:04 TC: That's pretty cool.

0:45:04 TH: Yeah. I really like that.

0:45:04 AM: Really awesome.

0:45:07 TH: Okay. Verse 4 is the second new Jerusalem, so put number two. And this says, Ether saw the days of Christ concerning a new Jerusalem. Now, this new Jerusalem is in America. So in 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation that the site... And we know this guys, 'cause we've been there, that the City of Zion would be near the town of independence in Jackson County, Missouri. So the cross-reference for Ether Chapter 13 verse four about the new Jerusalem being here in America is Doctrine And Covenants 84, verses 2 through 4. So you can put that next to verse 4, D and C, section 84, verses 2 through 4, is that revelation. Okay. So we have that new Jerusalem, and now we have the third Jerusalem is in verse 5. Now, cross-reference for that is going to be 3 Nephi, Chapter 20 verse 46. So this is old Jerusalem, as in Jerusalem in Israel, that Jerusalem... And a temple will be built over there. We are planning on it.

0:46:08 TH: We believe that, and the Jews believe that. And to the Jews, it's called the third temple. So if you Google Jewish third temple... Oh, it's so fun to read. Like I... This morning, I was doing it again and I just get caught into this rabbit hole, I love it, I love reading about it, studying about it, because they're planning on it, we're planning on them planning on it, and this temple will be built prior to Jesus Christ coming again... But why all of this is important? Like, why do we need these old Jerusalems, New Jerusalem...

0:46:37 TH: And the City of Enoch, why does this matter? So this is kind of cool. When Christ comes again, there will be two capitals that he is going to rule from during the millennium, he will rule from the new Jerusalem in America and the old Jerusalem. Okay. So now you know that, now when you go back and read Ether 13, 1 through 5, you can go, "Okay. This is what it's talking about." And it's interesting that Moroni wants us to know this. He's gonna finish this record by saying, "Hey, here's something you need to know, here's something Ether's been teaching... " And it's for our day, it's for us today. So that is... Ends Moroni's instruction to us. What he learned from Ether and wanted us to know. Now it says He wanted to write more, but in verse 13, he was actually told he's forbidden to write any more. So now we're gonna turn back to the story of the Prophet Ether and all of the wars. And Ether tried to teach the people, but they refused to believe his words, and you're not gonna believe this, because, you won't believe where he hid for many years for his safety, and we're gonna read about that in the next segment.

Segment 6

0:47:39 TH: So guys, take it away. Abe, Tyler, I asked you to come prepared to retell the stories found in Ether chapters 14 and 15, because I said I want you to tell it like we're at a Boy Scout Jamboree [chuckle] Because, it seems to me like something you tell around a campfire. 'Cause the stories are so crazy, you can't even believe. And you're like, "Wait, what?" So take it away, you guys tell us the story.

0:48:01 AM: Why don't you get us started, why don't you start it out Tyler?

0:48:05 TC: Okay. I told you earlier before we started, Tammy, that if there were here to be a movie, a comedy by Monty Python created... It would probably be Ether 14 with the attack, run away, follow, attack, run away... Everybody's running away from each other and following... Caught up to them, they fight again, thousands die...

0:48:26 AM: I'm gonna add to what you're saying there... The weird part about this whole thing as we go through it, is that when you look at wars in the Book of Mormon or the Bible, it's like there would be a fight and then people would be injured on both sides and the one side would win and the other people would go, "Okay, I don't wanna fight anymore, so... " Then they would go back and they would live for a while, they would build back up and then they would get angry because they'd like, "We're... Those people beat us. We wanna go get them." But this is a totally new thing. It's like, "We're gonna fight until you die." The people have just completely forgotten about being civil to one another, or being able to say, "Hey, you know what, guess what, I've beaten you this day and now you can live here for a while, and I'm gonna go and build up a kingdom... " they didn't think anything like that... [chuckle]

0:49:11 TH: No, no. No time they'd be like... Gather your thoughts. They were like, "We're fighting to the death." And we have to point out these verses in 20 through 23. I mean, there's so much death that this is the part of the movie for me, Tyler, was, in verse 21, "So great and lasting had been the war and so long had been the scene of bloodshed and carnage, that the whole phase of the land was covered... " But then when it talks about the stench, it smelled so bad, verse 23, "The scent thereof went forth upon the face of the land... " I mean, just the description of that and thinking about how everybody fought in verse 2, just imagining a mom with a baby on her hip fighting for her life, no one's like...

0:49:51 TC: Yes.

0:49:53 TH: A nursing mom even, she's got little kids around her and they are fighting... It's... The most insane...

0:50:00 TC: Yes. It's crazy, we... We learn later in the chapters that the little kids took up arms and they're fighting, I couldn't imagine my 10-year-old picking up a sword. And one point I wanted to bring up with this, because I mean, they fight all day long. When I was doing jujitsu, five minutes of doing jujitsu, was, for me, "Oh my gosh." My heart rate was through the roof, I was exhausted. I couldn't imagine fighting for my life, all day long. It's one thing to be miles and miles away and deliver a strike, but to be up, close and personal fighting, dropping your weapon from time to time and have to improvise, that would be so exhausting. I couldn't even fathom that. I really couldn't.

0:50:51 AM: One of the things that stood out to me is, at some point, I'm thinking, wouldn't you just go, "Alright, we started with a thousand guys, we have 400 left, maybe we should just make a treaty with these people... Tell you what, don't bother us, we don't bother you. We're gonna move up north, we're gonna build a ship and leave."

0:51:09 TH: "Uncle. Uncle." You're just calling it. So Abe... Go to those versus Abe, I want you to go to verse... In Ether Chapter 15, I love how you're describing it versus 23 and... Through 25, just read those... 'cause it's exactly what you're describing.

0:51:21 AM: Okay. "And on tomorrow they fought again, and when the night came, they had all fallen by the sword, save there were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz. And it came to pass that they slept upon their swords that night and on the morrow, they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields all that day, and when the night came, there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr.

0:51:48 TH: Oh sorry and first, just to give context to what you were saying in Chapter 15, Verse 2, it tells us there had already been slain...

0:51:57 TC: Two million...

0:51:57 TH: Two million people.

0:51:57 AM: Oh my gosh.

0:51:57 TC: You're looking at...

0:51:58 TH: Then we went from two million, we're now down to 32 versus 27. [chuckle]

0:52:01 TC: You're looking at two-thirds the population of Utah.

0:52:05 TH: Right?

0:52:06 AM: Well, it gives you an idea of, what are you fighting for? When we go back and we think about, earlier in the Book of Mormon, we talk about Captain Moroni. And he told them what they were fighting for, they were fighting for liberty, they were fighting for their children, for their families. You know what I mean? And then you've got these guys who were like, they have... To start out with two million and you're down to 32 and 27, they're not fighting for anything.

0:52:31 TH: Well, Abe I love that you brought that up because in Ether chapter 13, verse 14 and 18, it tells us that Ether is... He's hiding in a rock, he's in a cave, hanging out because he's the prophet and no one's listening to him. And that's the only place he can be safe is in this cave. And he comes to Coriantumr and says, "Listen, if you'll just repent. If you will just put the Lord first, you're going to win. That's all you have to do." And he would not listen to Ether. Going back to what you said, there was no cause other than just their own vengeance, they just wanted to make it right in their own minds. So Ether was like, "I'm done, there's nothing I can do for these people. I'm gonna hang out in the cave until he dies... " or whatever. And so... So going back to Ether 15, now, take us back then to the final moments or whatever of this war... 'cause this is where it's good.

0:53:22 TC: I can do that, but in order to do that, I'm gonna back up to show us how we got there.

0:53:29 TH: Great.

0:53:30 TC: So you have Coriantumr who is fighting Gilead, who was the brother Shared. Well, Gilead, he kinda pulls a George Washington, in my opinion. When George Washington crosses the Potomac on Christmas Eve night. That was the first thing that popped in my mind when I read that about Gilead. And then Gilead takes off, leaving them in the wilderness, goes, sets up on the throne where Coriantumr's supposed to be, but then he gets stabbed in the back metaphorically, and maybe even possibly literally by his High priest, Lib. Who then Lib goes and then starts attacking Coriantumr and that's a big wicked long battle. Well, Coriantumr ends up punching him to death, there was no righteousness to these battles, it just was now hate begets hate at this point. That's where Shiz comes into play. Is he was brothers with Lib.

0:54:22 TH: He's gonna avenge that death.

0:54:25 TC: So now Shiz is... That is the only thing he is about... Is avenging that death... Coriantumr actually writes a letter and says, "Look, I'll give you my kingdom, it's yours, just bare the people." He gets the letter, I don't know how he gets the letter, is it like a pony express thing, do they have a warrior with a white flag? I don't know... But he ends up getting the letter, Shiz gets the letter, reads it, and his response is just a classic example of hate begets hate. "I don't want your kingdom... We'll stop killing everybody, if I can kill you, period." Straight revenge for Lib's death, right? And what do they do, they keep battling back and forth, back and forth, and then Coriantumr tried to give it another go, tries to write him another letter and say, "Man, look I... Enough is enough. We just have to finish this." Well, obviously it fell on deaf ears, the two armies continued to fight as they've said down to... What was it...

0:55:30 AM: 27 and verses 32 people... It was just... Just ridiculous, man.

0:55:33 TC: That's crazy, absolutely crazy. And then it all comes down to two people. And the prophecy that Ether tried to give Coriantumr of, "Look, if you don't repent, your entire people, your posterity, everything will be taken from you." And we see that because this war took everybody with two people. It came down to two people. Shiz and Coriantumr.

0:56:00 AM: Yeah, the thing that I love about it is that you get these guys right, there fighting, it comes down to just those two guys, and they're like, "Man, I'm tired." so they basically... Like, Alright, "I'm a rest, if you rest."

0:56:13 TC: Now that's funny... I do.

0:56:15 AM: Like can you imagine?

0:56:18 TH: Read it for us Abe.

0:56:18 AM: It's crazy...

0:56:19 TH: Read verse 30... You're so right. Abe read it for us.

0:56:22 AM: Which verse are we looking at?

0:56:24 TH: Ether Chapter 15, Verse 30.

0:56:28 AM: And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz and it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell." Like he was like... He still wasn't done yet, "And after that, he had struggled for breath, he died." He's trying to breathe after his head is gone. That's like some serious anger. And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth and became as if he had no life." And I look at this and I go so at what point did Coriantumr go beyond the point of return... He got so far along that when he wanted to quit finally, because he had gone so far that Shiz was like, "No, we're not having that, we are going to fight until you die." And this is the thing, we're in a situation in the world today where our anger about certain things can go that far.

0:57:19 TC: Oh. Yeah.

0:57:20 AM: And we have to be careful of dabbling on the edge of that without realizing like, what is it that we're actually fighting for, and who is it that we're fighting against? Do they have families? Do we care about them? Do we care about the children? And... If we can have that type of civility, it prevents us from getting to where this has gone, and... I think it's a warning. I think it's a warning for, "Hey, you think it's crazy, but it could happen if you decide that we're throwing away all civility, we're throwing away all love... " And I think that's one of the reasons why, throughout these chapters, you see everything, you see death, you see murder, you see these things, but you also see charity and love and how important that is... And so it was important for us not to walk the line or to dabble in that type of hatred... That's the beginning of, I believe, those things where you can get to that point. It blows my mind.

0:58:12 TH: Abe, it goes right back to how we started, it goes back to faith. If everyone has faith, you can disagree about things. And we see just how far a lack of faith went in this story, that's the message with all of this. And so this is kind of cool, there's a couple of cool things about this, so first of all, I love the story about Shiz getting back up on his arms to fight, because I'm like, you Abe like... He's like, "I am not, I'm not gonna lose... " [chuckle]

0:58:40 AM: I don't care if my head's cut off. That goes back to what you said about that movie... What was it that you said...

0:58:44 TH: Monty Python movie.

0:58:44 AM: Like Monty Python right? It's like...

0:58:46 TH: I'm still.

0:58:48 AM: I'm not quite dead...

0:58:48 TH: The thing is. This is interesting about that thing, because it's actually a medical phenomenon, and so Shiz's struggle, it illustrates this classic reflex posture that occurs in both humans and animals, so when the upper brain stem is disconnected from the brain, there is an extension of your muscles in your arms and your legs, and they contract and there's a medical term for it, it's called decerebrate rigidity. Now, crazy thing about this is that was not known until 1898, they had not medically discovered that your body could do that well, after the Book of Mormon had ever been published, and so to have this written in here... There's no way Joseph Smith would have known that a body does that when a head is removed from its spinal Com. So I thought that was pretty cool.

0:59:34 TH: So next to Verse 32, I want you to give... I'm gonna give you this cross-reference, so when it says right there, Coriantumr fell to the earth and became as if he had no life, he did not die though. So go to Omni Chapter 1, Verse 22. And in the book of Omni, this, I love this. It's so cool. We have right here, where we're learning about the days of Mosiah, there was a large stone that was brought to him with engravings on it, and he did interpret those engravings, but look at verse 21, and they gave an account of one Coriantumr, who we just talked about, and the slain of his people and Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.

1:00:15 TH: So Coriantumr is gonna live. That's the connection. So Coriantumr, we have Ether the brother of Jared, all of the posterity, they're living on the American continent, Coriantumr is still alive and he's found by the people in the city of Zarahemla, he has a stone with engravings on it and he'll live with them for nine moons. Isn't that awesome? Just goes back full circle.

1:00:36 AM: That's amazing. It's like, Listen, I told you before, but you gonna live old and be lonely, and it was great that he got a chance to reunite with some people again, I wonder... I wish we had more information about how that reunion went down and whether he was able to go, "Okay, I realize what life is really about now," and obviously he would have had the chance to repent.

1:01:00 TH: Yeah, yes.

1:01:01 AM: It is an interesting man.

1:01:01 TH: And become fully converted and to have faith to come back to where he...

1:01:06 AM: That's some kind of repentance.

1:01:07 TH: It's awesome.

1:01:07 AM: Just like eh, Whosoever believeth in God might with certainty hope for a better world, and I can get it too that Coriantumr believed in God, by the time he was done with that.

1:01:14 TH: Amen Abe. Amen, that is perfect. Oh my gosh, you guys. Well, that's it, that's the end of the episode. What a perfect way to end Abe, hope for a better world. Absolutely, that was great. Okay. So take a couple of minutes and just tell me what was your take away from today? What stood out to you, go back through all the segments, all the verses we studied... Anything specific that stood out to you?

1:01:38 TC: For me, it was, have faith, quick and easy, have faith things will work out regardless of what you're going through.

1:01:47 AM: I think my take away is to always remember what it is that you're fighting for, and when I say that, I'm not talking about the way that Coriantumr and Shiz fought, but I'm talking about how we fight on a daily basis to keep ourselves right with God, and we have to remember that that's the most important thing.

1:02:09 TC: Truly a gentleman and a scholar.

1:02:12 TH: Well you both are.

1:02:14 AM: I believe that about you, Tyler.

1:02:15 TH: You both are.

1:02:18 TC: You... That's you buddy.

1:02:20 TH: You guys, this was... I couldn't have taught this lesson with anybody else, this was truly inspired, the fact that it was your favorite scripture, Abe, I mean that was awesome. And your insights Tyler from your profession with faith. This has been so great. My take away for sure is, and it's going to be forever, are you willing to stick this out? The next time I'm in the midst of a trial of faith, those... I hope are those the words that come to my brain, are you willing to stick this out, and I look back on my life and the trials of faith that I've had, and I did, I stuck it out, and it did turn out to be more precious than gold and I'm grateful that I stuck it out, and I hope that my life is a testament of just sticking it out and having faith and hoping for a better world, so... Great, great episode. You guys, you're awesome. So for those of you listening, we'd love to hear what your big take away was from this episode now, if you haven't already joined our discussion group, and if you're a little bit nervous about it, don't be...

1:03:09 TH: Instagram can be a safe place. So go there, sign up, look for Sunday on Monday podcast, and join our discussion group on there or on Facebook, which is called The Sunday on Monday podcast, and follow along throughout the week 'cause it's so cool, people post different things and they ask questions and they share different thoughts as they're listening to the podcast, and then at the end of the week, we ask for what your big takeaway was, it's usually on a Sunday morning and comment on the post that relates to this lesson so we can know what it is that you learned. I read every single one of those posts, what I loved is watching how everyone reacts to everyone's takeaways and how they share their own thoughts, you can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on, and it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we have the links to all the references and the transcript of this whole discussion. So go check that out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original.

1:04:01 TH: And it's brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study group participants were Abe Mills and Tyler Collet and his mustache. You can find more information about these friends at This episode was produced and edited by Erica free and Katie Lambert, it was mixed by Mix at 6 Studios and our executive producer's Erin Holstrom. Thank you for being here, we'll see you next week. To those of you who are in the middle of sticking this out, please remember that you are God's favorite, your mustache is killing me, Tyler. I haven't seen you in so long... What in the world?

1:04:42 TC: I want you to give me all your bacon and eggs... That's Ron Swanson.

1:04:51 TH: You are Ron. Oh my gosh, you're mustache. Abe Hi.

1:05:00 AM: Hey what's up guys? How are you?

1:05:00 TH: Look at you and your beard, we were just laughing at Tyler's mustache, 'cause he's shaved his beard but he kept his stash.

1:05:05 AM: I love that mustache, man, that is like...

1:05:08 TC: You know what Abe? Coming from you, that means a lot. I sincerely appreciate that. Thank you.

1:05:15 TH: Abe when you shave yours keep the mustache and send us a picture, okay?

1:05:19 AM: Oh. For sure. I don't think it'll be anything close to what we're seeing right now though I have to be honest, I can only do so much.

1:05:27 TH: It is pretty impressive.