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47: “Prepare Ye for the Coming of the Bridegroom” (Doctrine and Covenants 133–134)

Fri Nov 12 19:49:13 EST 2021
Episode 47

Okay, let’s be real. Doctrine and Covenants section 134 probably isn’t on our radar very often. All that talk about government can be pretty complex and hard to understand, but don’t worry—we’ve got your back. In this week's study group, we break down Doctrine and Covenants 133–134 as we discuss God’s purposes for governments and how we can learn to be better disciples of Jesus Christ, no matter where we live.

Segment 1:

Title for Section 133:

Appendix, Gathering, and the Second Coming!!!!” (exclamation marks added)


“Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, November 3, 1831. Prefacing this revelation, Joseph Smith’s history states, ‘At this time there were many things which the Elders desired to know relative to preaching the Gospel to the inhabitants of the earth, and concerning the gathering; and in order to walk by the true light, and be instructed from on high, on the 3rd of November, 1831, I inquired of the Lord and received the following important revelation.’ This section was first added to the book of Doctrine and Covenants as an appendix and was subsequently assigned a section number” (Doctrine and Covenants Section 133 Heading).


Doctrine and Covenants 1:1; 133:1;


“What we now know as section 133 of the Doctrine and Covenants was meant to be the appendix to the Book of Commandments, like an exclamation point at the end of the Lord’s published revelations” (Come, Follow Me—For Individuals and Families: Doctrine and Covenants 2021, Doctrine and Covenants 133–134: “Prepare Ye for the Coming of the Bridegroom”).

Segments 2:


Doctrine and Covenants 133:1; 3–5; 7–9; 10; 14; 15

Luke 9:62


“Babylon: Babylon was, in the time of ancient Israel, a city which had become sensual, decadent, and corrupt. The principal building in the city was a temple to a false god, which we often refer to as Bel or Baal.

“One of the greatest challenges we will face is to be able to live in that world but somehow not be of that world. We have to create Zion in the midst of Babylon” (Elder David R. Stone, “Zion in the Midst of Babylon,” April 2006 general conference).

Segment 3


Doctrine and Covenants 133:10; 16; 33; 46–48; 51; 52–53

John 3:29

Matthew 25


“Having bled at every pore, how red His raiment must have been in Gethsemane, how crimson that cloak! No wonder, when Christ comes in power and glory, that He will come in reminding red attire (see D&C 133:48), signifying not only the winepress of wrath, but also to bring to our remembrance how He suffered for each of us in Gethsemane and on Calvary!” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, “Overcome…Even As I Also Overcame,” April 1987 general conference).

Segment 4

Title for 134:

“Government and Man’s Laws—Religion and Divine Laws”


“After a mob attacked and destroyed the printing press in Independence, Missouri, on 20 July 1833, the decision was made to move the printing operation to Kirtland and recommence the printing of the revelations.1 This effort began in the fall of 1834 and was completed in August 1835. On 17 August 1835, a conference was held in Kirtland to consider the contents of the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. The Saints accepted and approved the publication of the Doctrine and Covenants as true scripture.

“At the conference, two declarations were also approved by the Saints and added to the Doctrine and Covenants. One was ‘Article on Marriage’ and the other was ‘Governments and Laws in General,’ both written by Oliver Cowdery.2 Elder B. H. Roberts stated that the declarations ‘were not presented as revelations and were not published as such at the time, but were expressions, of course, of the belief of the Saints at that period on those subjects.’3 It is important to note that the Prophet Joseph Smith and his second counselor, Frederick G. Williams, were absent from the conference, being in Michigan on Church business. This section was printed in the Messenger and Advocate in August 1835 and included in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants that same year. In 1879 under the direction of President Brigham Young, the article on marriage was replaced with the revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 132.

“The declaration on governments has remained in the Doctrine and Covenants as part of the canonized standard works. Written after the Saints had been driven out of Jackson County because of their religious beliefs and without the protection of governments, it defines the Church's belief in the relationship of governments to religions and churches as well as the relationship of individuals to governments. The following introduced this declaration of belief: ‘That our belief with regard to earthly governments and laws in general may not be misinterpreted, nor misunderstood, we have thought proper to present, at the close of this volume, our opinion concerning the same’ (D&C 134, headnote). Even though it may reflect the fever of the time in which it was written, its application is very evident today (Stephen E. Robinson, H. Dean Garrett, A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants, Vol. 4, "Doctrine and Covenants 134," Deseret Book).

Link:Article on Marriage


“I volunteered to defend my [cou]ntry in the last war [the War of 1812], yet I [cannot live] in the State of Missouri without de[nying my] religion. [I do not] feel satisfied to live [in s]uch bondage in what is called a free government” (Lyman Wight, Petition to the United States Senate, 4).

Segment 5:


Doctrine and Covenants 134: 1–4; 6; 8; 11

Article of Faith 12


“Today, every nation except three have adopted written constitutions1” (President Dallin H. Oaks, “Defending Our Divinely Inspired Constitution,” April 2021 general conference).

“The United States Constitution is unique because God revealed that He ‘established’ it ‘for the rights and protection of all flesh’ (Doctrine and Covenants 101:77; see also verse 80). That is why this constitution is of special concern for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world. Whether or how its principles should be applied in other nations of the world is for them to decide” (President Dallin H. Oaks, “Defending Our Divinely Inspired Constitution,” April 2021 general conference).

Segment 6:


Doctrine and Covenants 134:1; 3; 9–10; 12


“How do we keep these divine commandments in a world where we are also subject to the laws of man? Fortunately, we have the Savior’s own example of how to balance His eternal laws with the practicalities of man-made laws. When adversaries sought to trap Him with a question about whether Jews should pay taxes to Rome, He pointed to the image of Caesar on their coins and declared, ‘Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s’ (Luke 20:25).4

“So, we are to follow the laws of men (render unto Caesar) to live peacefully under civil authority, and we follow the laws of God toward our eternal destination” (President Dallin H. Oaks, “Love Your Enemies,” October 2020 general conference).

Tammy 0:00

Ah, exclamation points. Okay, in your writing, emails, or texts, do you use them? Do you overuse them? Or do you only use them for special occasions? Listen, admittedly, I totally overuse them! exclamation point. For me, they convey excitement and happiness and emphasis and sadness, and basically anything that I'm feeling at the time that I'm writing my message. Well, in today's study of Doctrine and Covenants section 133-134, one of these sections was originally the appendix to the entire Doctrine and Covenants and was meant to be like an exclamation point at the end of the Lord's published revelations.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshop Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, I just want to quickly make sure that you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study this week, just like my friend Amy Bryant Bower from Virginia, who just finished her last round of chemo. Congratulations, Amy. We're praying for you.

Now another awesome thing - and it's my favorite thing - is that each week we're joined by two of my friends, and so it's always different. And this one, I think, is going to be so different, and so awesome, because we have two old-timers, but they've never been together: Tyler Collet and Brady MacKay. Hi, friends.

Tyler Collet 1:26

How are you Tammy?

Brady MacKay 1:27

Hello. Hello guys. Good to be with you.

Tyler Collet 1:29

Hey, Brady, nice to see ya.

Brady MacKay 1:31

You too, Tyler.

Tyler Collet 1:32

Thank you.

Brady MacKay 1:33

It's my honor to be with you guys.

Tammy 1:35

I mean, this episode is gonna be so fun. I just want everyone to know what the two of you have in common. And it is law enforcement. Maybe tell us what your background is in law enforcement, cuz that's going to have a huge impact on what we study today.

Tyler Collet 1:49

So, I've been in law enforcement now for 21 years, just over. I started my career at the state prison, and spent a couple of years there, and then spent a couple of years at the county jail, so in the correction side of law enforcement. And from there, I switched over to the enforcement side, and I spent - gosh, how long was I there for? - probably nine years in patrol, at which time I moved to investigations and spent about three years in investigations. And then I was promoted to Sergeant, went back out to patrol, then I went to the courts, and then went back to patrol and then back to courts. That's where I'm at now is, so I've got to experience the corrections side of things, the enforcement side of things, and the judicial side of things. So that's kind of been my career.

Tammy 2:41

Okay, what about you, Brady?

Brady MacKay 2:43

Well, first thing, I gotta tip my hat to Tyler. I had an opportunity to work with Utah County many times, they produce great officers, it was my privilege to work with them.

Tyler Collet 2:51

Thank you.

Brady MacKay 2:52

I was, I am a retired DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) special agent so I was a Fed. I enforced US law not only in our 50 United States and Territories, but also around the world and several dozen countries. I conducted operations. I too, was in enforcement my entire career. And I retired and I'm, I'm glad. It's tough to be a law enforcement officer right now.

Tammy 3:15

As you guys are both talking, I was thinking, I just made this connection. I bet a lot of what you say on the job has exclamation points that follow it. Would that be true?

Tyler Collet 3:23

That would be a very accurate statement, yes.

Brady MacKay 3:26

Yeah. What most people would see as an extreme or critical situation once or twice in a lifetime, we would see several times a week throughout our career, so it's a little bit diff. Exclamation points is the proper term.

Tammy 3:39

I didn't even think about that 'til right now. So now there's two big reasons you guys are here today, this is going to be fun. Well, if you want to know more about my guests, go check out their bios, and you can see their pictures in our show notes which are found at LDS

Okay, here's a little bit of history real fast. In today's sections, we have an appendix. And then we have a declaration of beliefs. And they date back to 1831 and 1835. These sections, they were later added to the Doctrine and Covenants, and I like them at the end, rather than putting them in context, meaning the dates when they were given. These are powerful sections we're going to study. So friends, grab your scriptures, and let's dig into these.

Okay, you guys. So, let's talk about exclamation points. I mean, you kind of already told us that your job deals with them a lot. Do you have anything specific about exclamation points?

Tyler Collet 4:27

Well, a lot of the times you know in my career, I clearly don't have the vast experience of going outside of Utah, let alone the country, as Brady does. However, there's been many times in my career where we're dealing with someone in particular, maybe a traffic stop that's turned into a felony stop and that's where we believe that the occupant or occupants in the vehicle may pose a serious threat. You see videos of those all the time on the internet, the news, where the officers are parked behind them, but you also hear the shouting, right?

You get, you hear those commands. And that's exactly what they are, is commands. They're not suggestions, we want them to do those things. We want people to do those things for their safety, for our safety. So they are; they're, they're, if you were to write it out, you would definitely have exclamation points on all of that.

Tammy 5:44


Brady MacKay 5:15

As Tyler was speaking, I'm looking at the first verses here in the 133rd section and the first section, they both start out by saying, "Hearken, O ye people, my church." So hearken means to hear and obey the voice of those giving the commands. And that's something that that we did every day with people, because we were the authority representing the people through the laws enacted by this democratic society. And so when we gave lawful orders, in the scope of our duties, people were expected to obey them. And they were given oftentimes with exclamation points.

Tammy 5:47

You know, Brady, I'm so glad you pointed out the word Hearken. In fact, those of you listening, let's mark that word. Because you're absolutely right, there is something about that word. And we've learned this year that the word hearken in Hebrew means not only listen, but also obey. And what's so unique about this section, is section 133 was given at the same time as sections 1, 67, 68, 69, and 70. And what was interesting to me was that all of those sections also begin with or have the word hearken in them. Those were the first sections given when the when the Doctrine and Covenants was being put together. And I love how the Lord speaks to us. And He's saying, 'Hearken, there is something important here that I want you to listen to, and I want you to obey.'

And the title for Section 133 is called "The Appendix, Gathering of the Second Coming. And I wrote Gathering of the Second Coming with a lot of exclamation points after that, because there, in Section 133 there is definitely something that the Lord wants us to hearken to, and wants us to believe. And so I love the Come Follow Me manual actually says, "it was meant to be an exclamation point". I didn't even make that up. I got that, which I thought was so cool in the Come Follow Me manual it literally says "It's like an exclamation point at the end of the Lord's published revelations." I do have a question, though, about this section 133. We know what the what the title is for it. But I want to know after you guys read it, why do you think it was placed at the very end of the Doctrine and Covenants?

Brady MacKay 7:15

Well, it's interesting that it's bookend with the first section where we're, where the Lord tells us 'pay attention to what I'm telling you.' It's interesting in almost every section of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord states who He is and His authority to people. And these sections, He's beginning out by saying, 'not only am I Lord of God, but I want you to listen, hearken unto what I say.' And so that's an exclamation point right there. When the Lord says, 'Listen to me', what greater exclamation point can we have given to us? And so yes, that's the way I looked at it when I first saw that.

Tammy 7:47

Okay, now, Brady, this is so cool, because what struck me as you spoke was when you said that the Lord states who He is and His authority, and I feel like that's something that both of you can relate to, like when you go in, you have to state who you are, and where you get your authority from. And Brady, then you pointed out that section 1 and section 133 are like bookends. And so I'm thinking about this and I'm like, they are, they are bookends, and they both state who the Lord is, and His authority. And both sections are asking us to hearken. So that was so cool. I love that Brady, thanks for doing that. Tyler, look in the section heading. Because here's the question that prompted section 133. Will you read the quote by Joseph Smith, it starts with "at this time......

Tyler Collet 8:27

"At this time, there were many things which the Elders deserved to know relative to preaching the Gospel to the inhabitants of the earth, and concerning the gathering; and in order to walk by the true light, and be instructed from on high, on the 3rd of November, 1831, I inquired of the Lord and received the following important revelation."

"This section was first added to the book of Doctrine and Covenants as an appendix, and was subsequently assigned a section number."

Tammy 8:54

Thank you. So great connection, Brady. I love that you brought that up. Awesome. What about you, Ty, as you were reading this, why do you think it's the appendix?

Tyler Collet 9:03

Well, you know, I kind of have to echo what Brady said, but just to kind of add my own zest to it, if you will. You know, it talks about even the Second Coming. And that's, I mean, ultimately what we're preparing for, right, is to meet the Savior once again. Now, do I think there's other scriptures that maybe are a little more elaborate on the Second Coming? Sure, but I think that, you know, Brady mentioned it right off the get-go, 'hearken, listen, hear this'. So that's how important it is. But I think for me, it's, you know, just to kind of wrap things up from the revelations, for Joseph Smith.

Tammy 9:43

Yeah. Oh, thank you, Tyler. Thanks for connecting that to the Second Coming. Perfect. So I asked my guests to read Doctrine and Covenants section 133. And I asked them to look for what for them personally, was an exclamation point. And we'll talk more about that in the next segment.

Segment 2 9:59

Tammy 9:59

Okay. So an exclamation point in writing is used to express strong feelings, add emphasis, or to act as a warning. I looked that up. So here's what I want to know, you guys. When you read section 133, what specifically stood out to you as an exclamation point?

Tyler Collet 10:15

I made a list.

Tammy 10:16

Oh yeah? All right.

Brady MacKay 10:18

I'll bet your list matches up pretty good. Go ahead, Tyler.

Tammy 10:21

Hit it.

Tyler Collet 10:22

Alright, well, we're gonna start with verse 1. And Brady already, already hit this one. But the word Hearken stood out to me for that verse, right? That's, to me, listen what's being said, it's important. That's why that verse stood out to me was the word Hearken. Moving on to verse 4. The words, "Prepare ye" He says that twice. "Prepare ye, prepare ye". Again, something very important, something that we need to be prepared on. Right?

Then moving to verses 7 and 8, specifically referencing missionary work, "Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations, from the four winds" right, from the north, east, south, west, "from one end to heaven to the other. Send forth the elders of my church." So again, for me that that was an exclamation point of missionary work. And then moving on to 10, verse 10. 'Awake and arise and go forth to meet the Savior.' Right?

Tammy 11:27

I mean, we're only at verse 10, and there's so much good stuff. Okay, we're gonna pause right there; Brady jump in as

Brady MaacKay 11:35

Well, I had a lot of the same things. But first, I started out with just some of the general principles that are given in this section. And as I read them, there was a strong impression upon my mind that reminded me of the words of the Prophet in last October's conference. And as I give these general points here, you'll see that the Prophet addressed each and every one of them. And he has in almost every single one of his addresses to the church.

The Lord gave many invitations to us in the 133rd section, but there was prepare for the Second Coming, flee from Babylon, come to Zion, prepare for the great day of the Lord, restore the gospel, and as Tyler said, gather Israel, spread the gospel throughout the world. And those were the general things that were given. But in those first few verses, that we have Hearken, but in verse 3 there, and maybe Tammy can help me out here. I understand when the scriptures of the Lord refers to His arm or to bare His arm, that is showing strength; that is synonymous with showing His strength and power. Isn't that correct interpretation of that?

Tammy 12:41

It is Brady, and I love that you brought that up, because He also says it in Doctrine and Covenants, section 1, verse 14, going back to what you had pointed out how there's a connection there. And in, so in His preface, introducing Doctrine and Covenants, He uses that imagery. And I think this is kind of cool. It actually dates back to, and in war, and you were on a horse, and you would ride up on a horse and you would have your cape, the man who was on the horse, the warrior, would take his cape, and he would throw it over his shoulder to show his arm. And that was a sign of strength and power that was supposed to scare the people that he was fighting. And so you are absolutely right, that is so symbolic when he makes 'bare his holy arm'. So cool. I love that.

Brady MacKay 13:23

Thank you. I knew you'd know that. I knew you'd know that.

Tammy 13:26

That's a cool Old Testament thing. I love it.

Brady MacKay 13:29

So besides what Tyler mentioned, in verses 4 and 5, it talks about us leaving Babylon, there was a question in the Come Follow Me manual says, "What do we", and I would add for our families "need to do to depart from our own spiritual Babylon?" I thought that was a profound question. And then in verse 14, it follows up with saying, "Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord". So we're told to depart from Babylon, and to be clean, and then it goes into what is expected of us.

Tammy 14:00

I love this because I want to stop there for one second, because Babylon, and I'm so glad you brought that up. That was what stood out to me for this. There's a couple things but let's define Babylon for people who don't really understand what this means. And I love this quote, it's by David R. Stone from the 2006 General Conference, and he talked about what Babylon is, and Tyler, will you read this? This is his definition. He's a member, he was a member of the Quorum of the 70 at the time. Here's how he defines Babylon.

Tyler Collet 14:27

"Babylon. Babylon was in the time of ancient Israel, the city which had become sensual, decadent and corrupt. The principal building in the city was a temple to a false god, which we often refer to as bell or ball. One of the greatest challenges we will face is to be able to live in that world, but somehow not be of that world. We have to create Zion in the midst of Babylon.

Tammy 14:54

Thank you. And Brady, I love that you brought up that question. How do we go out from Babylon? I mean, we are told to do that three times in Section 133. We're told to do it in verse 5, verse 9, and then in verse 14: "Go ye out from Babylon." And then how significant was verse 15? Because I connected it to that when it says, "Behold, verily saith the Lord, let not your flight be in haste, but let all things be prepared before you;" So as you're leaving Babylon, make sure you're ready to leave it. And then it says, "....all things be prepared before you; and he that goeth, let him not look back lest sudden destruction shall come upon him."

Brady MacKay 15:30

Did that not remind you of the wife of Lot in Genesis when they're leaving Sodom?

Tammy 15:37

That's exactly what it's referencing. Yeah, well, and it's so interesting. There's a really other cool scripture reference. It's Luke chapter 9, verse 62. And for those of you listening, go ahead and mark that. In Luke chapter 9, verse 62. It says he who putteth his hands to the plow, don't look back. And I love this idea, because I'm not a real farmer. But I'm imagining, think of someone when they have a plow. What happens if they're driving a plow, and they look back?

Brady MacKay 16:05

They lose their line, their straight line.

Tammy 16:07

Yeah. Now, for those of you in law enforcement, what does that mean to you? Talk to me about why we can't look back.

Tyler Collet 16:14

Well, I'll use kind of a more common-day metaphor, really, that we actually discussed in Elders quorum. This very, looking forward spiritually speaking, right? The example was brought up, driving down the freeway. Imagine you're driving down one of the major freeways wherever you live. And if you're driving down this highway, whichever highway it is, and you spend the entire time driving down the highway looking in the rearview mirror, what's happening in front of you? What accidents, right, that forward thinking, I think, was the term that we used in Elders quorum, the forward thinking of spiritual progress, where we need to be, where are we? Where are our families? And what do we need to do to prepare for things?

Tammy 16:57

So good, Tyler, I love that. I'm a visual person. So I love the idea, like you would never drive looking in your rear view mirror the entire time.

Tyler Collet 17:05


Tammy 17:06

So good.

Brady MacKay 17:07

Here's another one. There's, if I may, that Tyler and I both spent time with people who were addicted to controlled substances, drug addicts, and many of them, if not all of them, wanted to put their drug habit behind them. But it was difficult. And sometimes on difficult days, these addicts would look back to being a drug addict, and the euphoria or the, the high they got from using drugs and they would look back, take their eye off the road ahead. And it would cause major problems. But that could be applied to all of us in our life, whatever we need to remove from our life to leave Babylon spiritually. If we look back like Lot's wife, it will turn into a pillar of salt, it will certainly make our lives more difficult.

Wow, great story. Both of you did such an excellent job of applying this principle to our lives. That's what this is all about. Thank you. That was really good. Oh, my gosh, that was so good. Okay. Well, in the next segment, we're going to pick up where we left off with Tyler. And we're going to start looking at verse 10 in section 133.

Segment 3 18:12

Tammy 18:13

Okay, Tyler, you ended on verse 10. And I had you stop there with the bridegroom because I want us to take a minute and talk about that. So Tyler, will you read verse 10 for us?

Tyler Collet 18:23

10 "Yeay, let the cry go forth among all people: Awake and arise and go forth to meet the Bridegroom; behold and lo, the Bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Prepare yourselves for the great day of the Lord."

Tammy 18:37

Okay, put exclamation points all around that verse. That is what this whole section is about: the Second Coming. In fact, even at the top of your page, you can right JESUS IS COMING exclamation point. This is such a unique wording though, that the Savior is referred to the Bridegroom. And we'll talk a ton about this next year. But in the Old Testament, after the exodus, the Lord would employ really familiar metaphors for the children of Israel to help them understand who He was in their lives.

And one of the most common metaphors that He would use was that of being a husband or a bridegroom, because the people understood how important marriage was. They understood the fidelity that was required to make a marriage work, that you had to be loyal and true. And so He often refers to Himself as the Bridegroom or the Husband. For example, in Isaiah, He says, "For thy maker is thine husband". In Jeremiah he says, "I am married unto you." In another, Jeremiah scripture, He says, "I was a husband unto them." Throughout the Doctrine and Covenants, He calls Himself the Bridegroom.

Here is something I learned that I think is so cool. We just have to connect this verse to John chapter 3 v,erse 29. Now, in John chapter 3, verse 29, John the Baptist is speaking. And here's what John the Baptist says,

29 "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled."

And some scholars interpret this to mean that John the Baptist, in a way, is saying that he is the best man, that he's the head groomsman. He is the best friend of John, of the bridegroom. And I, I just thought that was so cool. Just leaning into this idea that Christ is the Bridegroom, and that we are awaiting His, for Him to come. I just love this. So it's really cool that Christ is the Bridegroom. And so when we think about this idea, I want to know from you guys when you got married, though. Tell me this. Tell me about what you wore on your wedding day.

Tyler Collet 20:34

Mine was just, you know, a nice pair of church slacks and a nice shirt and tie.

Tammy 20:38

Oh, I totally remember. I was there. So, and you looked very handsome, Tyler. What about you, Brady?

Brady MacKay 20:44

Well, in the ceremony of course, well, Holly and I got married in Salt Lake Temple and we wore the temple clothing. But when we came out, I was wearing a tuxedo and I have one of those old, that we call them the "Joseph Smith coats" with the big long tails that came down the back. That was my tuxedo. So, I don't know if we can say this, but you can put a pig in a tuxedo but it's still a pig, right?

Tyler Collet 21:08

That's right. (laughter)

Brady MacKay 21:09

Anyway, yeah, I wore the Joseph Smith tuxedo with that long coat, long-tailed coat. So,

Tammy 21:15

Okay, well, I wanted, I wanted you to have that visual of what you were wearing and what a groom would wear or a bridegroom as we call it. Now there is a connection here to the Parable of the 10 Virgins in Matthew chapter 25. Because Christ, as the bridegroom will be wearing something very specific in Section 133, like the virgins who are waiting for the bridegroom to arrive in Matthew chapter 25. Let's go to section 133 verses 46-48. And we're going to read about what Christ will be wearing when He returns. Did either of you notice these verses or mark them?

Brady MaacKay 21:48


Tammy 21:49

What is it?

Brady MacKay 21:50

Those garments that are that are red, in appearance?

Tammy 21:55

Yeah, dyed red is what it says specifically, red, in verse 48, "red in his apparel". Verse 51, "that the blood of those who sinned", will be, "it will be sprinkled upon His garments." And you read that and you're like, really? And then we just have to read this quote by Neal A Maxwell because I just love how he teaches this, about what the Bridegroom will wear. Brady will you read this quote for us by Neal A Maxwell.

Brady MacKay 22:17

Yes. "Having bled at every pore, how red His raiment must have been in Gethsemane, how crimson the cloak. No wonder when Christ comes in power and glory that He will come in reminding red attire, signifying not only the the wine press of the wrath, but also to bring to our remembrance how He suffered for each of us in Gethsemane and on Calvary!"

Tammy 22:40

Don't you love that he, Elder Maxwell ends his quote with the exclamation point?

Brady MacKay 22:45


Tyler Collet 22:46

Hmmm. Yeah.

Tammy 22:47

Like, how important for us to recognize, I like how he says 'reminding red attire. "He comes in reminding red attire. I thought that was so cool.

Brady MacKay 22:55

Yeah. And I don't know if everybody understands how He will appear when He comes. I know there's artwork that shows a different appearance, but I think it's interesting, not so much the redness, but what it signifies. And that's the blood of all those who He's had to atone for.

Right.Exactly it.

Tyler Collet 23:14

So let me ask you this, Tammy. We talked earlier, well you used the cape, right, to explain the showing of the arm as a as a sign of strength. I've seen those renditions of Christ with the red, I guess shawl, is that? Is that

Tammy 23:33

Oh, draped over His shoulder?

Tyler Collet 23:34

Draped, yeah. Is this kind of what it's referring to? Or is it literally going to be a red top, red bottom, one red gown? What do you, what are your thoughts on that?

Tammy 23:45

Wow, Tyler. Okay, that is such a good and a deep question. Now one of the things we're gonna learn next year in Old Testament - and I think this is so cool - is that in Scripture, red or scarlet is often a symbol of Christ's Atonement. So then when you take the imagery of this cape, and He throws it over His shoulder, like we talked about earlier, making bare His arm, then it really is a symbol of power, the power of the atonement. Gosh, I had never connected that before, Tyler. Thank you for asking that question. That's so cool. That's what that is. He's wearing red. He's making bare His arm with that cape and it will be a symbol of His power of His Atonement. That's so cool. I don't think he'll be in a suit or a tuxedo. I'm just saying that.

Tyler Collet 24:28

No. Or, or a pair of slacks with a dress-up shirt and tie.

Tammy 24:32

Right. Or sweats. Yeah, I just think it will be this beautiful reminder of who He is and and what He did in Gethsemane.

Brady MacKay 24:40

Tam, I don't know if you're going to discuss it, but this parable being one of my favorites, it's one I've studied; it's one I've looked at. So the oil lamps, the oil that these virgins are supposed to collect. Do you look at that as the testimonies that we have to obtain in our lives? It's something we have to get ourselves? Because I understand the virgins were not allowed to share their oil. They had to go in with their oil and leave the five who did not, outside, just like our testimony. We cannot live off of other people's testimony when the Bridegroom comes. You either have it or you don't.

Tammy 25:13

Well and Brady, how much do you love in that parable that all 10 had lamps, and all 10 had oil. It's just five didn't have enough to make it to the end. They were all good. They all started out equal and good as believers. For years, I always thought that the five were wicked and five were good. And that's not what it's saying at all. They were all good. It's just when the, when the bridegroom came, the five that had enough oil, were like we, and like you said, you can't share your testimony. I can't pour my testimony into somebody else and say, Okay, come with me now. You got to be ready.

Well, do you remember, when I was a child, one of the biggest times of anxiety I ever had was going into a test in school where I was not prepared. And I remember to this day that crummy feeling. And I think if we multiplied that by 1000 times, the feeling that we would have if the bridegroom comes, to we are not prepared to go in. I imagine that feeling would be terrible.

Okay, I really like that application, Brady. Like, I agree. Not being prepared, it is such an awful feeling. I hate not being prepared. And so I really hope that I am ready. And I really hope as you were talking, I was connecting this to my exclamation points, which are found in verses 52-53. Like, I hope this is me. And I hope I am prepared to do this when He comes. Verse 52 says,

52 "And now the year of my redeemed has come; And they shall mention the loving kindness of their Lord, and all that he is bestowed upon them according to his goodness, and according to his loving kindness, forever and ever."

And I thought, I hope I am a witness of that. I hope I'm one of those saying all of the good that He did for me, all of His kindness. And then I love 53.

53 "In all their afflictions he was afflicted. And the angel of his presence saved them; and in his love, and in his pity, he redeemed them, and bore them, and carried them all the days of old;"

And then we'll rejoice. I mean, if you turn the page, there's more, sorry, I didn't turn the page. You go back, it talks about how we'll rejoice, in verse 33. "And they'll be filled with songs of everlasting joy" when He comes. So yeah, I think you're right, Brady.

Brady MacKay 27:19

Imagine those that you love around you that are rejoicing over the same thing. That they're ready to go in with the bridegroom?

Tammy 27:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Tyler Collet 27:30

And this is one of the exclamation points that I found most important for me. And something that I would want my friends and family to know the most, which is in verse 16. Again, we have the hearken and hear, right off the bat.

16 "Hearken and hear, O ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen, ye elders of my church together, and hear the voice of the Lord; for he calleth upon all men, and he commandeth all men everywhere to repent."

That's it. Repent. Listen, do it. Right?

Tammy 28:05

Wow. That's the drops of oil right there that we were talking about with Brady. That's awesome. Great connection. Oh, my gosh, that's so good. Such a great exclamation point. Jesus is coming! Get ready! Okay. Well, that's all we have. I mean, we, I wish we had so much more time to talk about Doctrine and Covenants 133. But we don't, because now we have to go on to the next section. And so I can't wait to talk about section 134 with our two guests. And we are going to dive into this one in the next segment.

Segment 4 28:31

Tammy 28:32

Okay, Doctrine and Covenants section 134 is such an interesting section. In fact, what I love about it is many times when students or anyone in a class, Institute, would read it, they would be like, Wait, when did they put this in? Has this always been in Doctrine and Covenants? You know, like, it's always been there. We don't reference it often or talk about it much, but I think we should. And so my question for both of you is, you have such an extensive and impressive background in law enforcement. So here's my first question: I want to know, what did you see in this section? Why are we putting it in here?

Tyler Collet 29:06

I see it in today's time. I mean, this, it sounds crazy. It's very applicable to today's time, it's applicable to our country, the United States, and how our, our branches of government works, really.

Tammy 29:24

Ummmm. So it's about government.

Brady MacKay 29:27

Government, and the law, the enforcement of law, the inherent, the adherence to law, the responsibility of citizens under the law, and to make law. You know, I looked at i and said, this is a 1835. I thought it was written this past month. I mean, you would, you would, I mean, every time, it seems like the more and more we read the Scriptures, the more we see how applicable they are to our day. And tell me the 134th section isn't applicable to everything that's gone on, from the riots, to law-enforcement issues that are still going on today.

And I think for not just, you know, members of the church, but anybody could read this, and see the wisdom in it to apply it to our society. I see it and for me, it gives me more clarity as to how I should behave and my role as a citizen. I mean, one of the questions that I've asked my family and I ask others, Okay, with all the situations in the world and all the politics, what is it, what is our role as a righteous disciple of Christ? What should we be doing right now? And I think the 134th section helps clarify our civic responsibilities, and how we look at the law.

Tammy 30:41


Tyler Collet 30:42

And I'm going to add to that, Brady. What I, gathering some thoughts on this section, I mean I, it dawned on me just how, how inspirational the Constitution of the United States really is.

Brady MacKay 30:57

Yeah, well, we could spend a lot of time talking about God's hand in the establishment of this nation, from the founding fathers to the founding documents of this nation, and His hand in establishing a nation that the gospel could be restored in. But this section here has so much wisdom for us today. And I'm looking forward to talking about it with you guys right now.

Tammy 31:24

You have lived outside of the United States. And as you read section 134, was it applicable to people who live outside of the United States?

Brady MacKay 31:33

Absolutely. And if I may share a story with that. I didn't think I would until just a moment ago. I worked in a lot of foreign countries with foreign law enforcement officers, and I paid a compliment to Tyler, and local law enforcement police. I've worked with police all over the country. Years ago, I was working with a senior officer in another country, and that had a lot of corruption in their law enforcement and their judiciary and in their political parties. And we were close friends.

And one, one time he he looked at me with full sincerity of heart, he said, "Brady, what can I do? Or what can we do in my country, so that we can be like the United States, and advance and progress and have a flourishing society?" And I told him, I said, I remember what I said. I said, "I don't know, my friend. But I know as long as officers are driving Mercedes Benz and wearing Rolex watches, this nation will have a hard time progressing. In other words, law enforcement, and those with whom we we give our power to, have to have a standard and have to have balances on their power; they have to have a check and a balance at all times."

And so this is personal to me, this section right here. I worked with corrupt officers overseas, where your life was in danger because of where people did not advance because of where they had no faith in their institutions of government and their law enforcement. We always have to have a check and a balance on power there. The founding fathers were so amazing that the way they put in our government documents in a manner that there was always a check on power, that no power would be, not all power would reside at any one individual, or institution, or body, And that's the way it needs to be. And so Tyler and I both carry badges and firearms and enforce law, that there was a standard that was required upon us that was maintained, that we always had to have our power checked, because power does corrupt, and you have to have that balance in it.

Tammy 33:20

And then you have section 134 that's trying to get us to keep it straight. That's what I love about it, like, and we still struggle. And here is, I mean, look at the date this was given - what's the day of section 134?

Brady MacKay 33:52

August 17th, 1835.

Tammy 33:54

The church has only been organized for five years. I mean, it is a young church and Joseph Smith is so young. I mean, he's only, he's born in 1805. And it's 1835. Someone do the math. He's 30. 30 years, oh thank you (pie r squared, carry the 1). He's only 30. And here is this revelation. And did you notice how each verse starts, a similarity?

Brady MacKay 34:21

We Believe

Tyler Collet 34:21

Yes. "We believe". It kind of reminds me of the Articles of Faith.

Tammy 34:24

That's exactly it. That's where it will comes from is this pattern, here's what we believe, here's what we believe. But the amount of depth that he goes into with what we believe when it comes to governments and the way the government should rule is just mind- blowing to me that he can come up with this. Because you would need to be so schooled and vetted in law and law-enforcement to write this, don't you think?

Brady MacKay 34:48


Tyler Collet 35:07

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Tammy 34:50

Just a young kid who can barely write and here you are. And you're, it's section 134 is so cool. So here's a little bit of history about it. Well, to go back to this time is that the mob just attacked and destroyed the printing press in Independence, Missouri in 1833. So the decision is made to move the printing operation to Kirtland, Ohio, and it's gonna take about two years to complete the printing of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. So then a conference is held in 1835 and the Saints accept and approve the Doctrine and Covenants as Scripture. Now, at that conference, they also had two declarations that were approved.

We talked a little bit about this last week with Doctrine and Covenants section 132. I thought this was interesting. These two declarations that were approved when they approved the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the declarations was called Article on Marriage. And I'll put in the shownotes a link to that so you can go read it. That Article on Marriage was in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, section 101. And it's going to later be replaced by Doctrine and Covenants section 132. So I thought that was kind of cool.

The second one, the second declaration is called Governments and Laws in General. Now, the title for Section 134 is "Government and Man's Laws, Religion and Divine Laws. This section, Government and Laws in General, was later canonized as section 134 and it was put in after the appendix. Now this is kind of cool, because at this meeting where all the saints were when they decided, okay, let's canonize the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith wasn't there. He's actually visiting the Saints in Michigan.

So Oliver Cowdery presides at this assembly. In the meeting, the Saints unanimously voted to include the declaration that Oliver Cowdery presented regarding the beliefs of the church concerning governments and laws. And this is going to play a huge role in how the Saints perceive the government. And one of my favorite stories is by a man by the name of Lyman White. And Lyman White will actually write a letter to the US Senate, later in life. And he'll say, 'Listen, I fought in the War of 1812; I fought for the freedoms of our country.' And this is exactly what he says, I just have to use this quote.

He says this, "I volunteered to defend my country in the last war of 1812. Yet I cannot live in the state of Missouri without denying my religion." And then he goes on to say, "I do not feel satisfied to live in such bondage in what is called a free government." And I just, he implores them like, please give us our freedoms, give us back our freedoms, and he recites section 134 as he writes this letter. And so in the next segment, we are going to just dive into section 134 and talk about how it applies to all of us.

Segment 5 37:25

Tammy 37:28

Okay, Doctrine and Covenants, section 134. We're just gonna talk about verses 1-4, because that's pretty much all I understood, and then I'm gonna let you guys take it over. I like how in verse 1 and verse 3, the Lord is very clear on what He has instituted. Verse 1, "We believe that governments were instituted of God", and then verse 4, "We believe that religion is instituted of God". So we have two things He's instituted. But then go to verse 2, and in verse 2, we have three specific rights that governments should protect for each individual. Tyler, will you read verse 2 for us? And as Tyler reads these, let's mark what these rights are.

Tyler Collet 38:04

2 "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life."

Tammy 38:19

Okay, what are the three things that we should be able to have?

Tyler Collet 38:23

The right to think for yourself, the right to keep and protect property, and, obviously, protection of life.

Tammy 38:30

Well, thank you for defining free exercise of conscience, because I marked that, I'm like, Well, I'm not even sure. So, the right to think for yourself, I think that's awesome. Those are our three rights. And so the Lord's teaching that to us right here, and then He just dives into everything that we need to know about government. So what did you guys mark, what stood out to you? And what stories do you have? How does this affect your life?

Brady MacKay 38:54

Well, verse 2, I mean, as you're talking, it tells us about the right to think or exercise our conscience, the right to control property, and protection of life. I had a unique experience of being educated in a communist country who went to graduate school in a communist country, I worked, I studied in the People's Republic of China. I've lived there, I've worked there. I've worked and lived in other communist states; I've worked with other totalitarian governments. And it's just interesting that the right to think and, and have exercised your conscience the way you want does not exist in those countries.

Thoughts are controlled, every internet site, every internet server is monitored 24 hours a day, 365 days a year by state security people. There is no Fourth Amendment and there's no, there's no independent property. You're not allowed to own property in a truly communist state, the government controls that. And then the protection of life, so, just an interesting observation how in this nation how blessed we are to have protections of our freedoms to think, our freedoms to own property - which means we can have our own house, our own land, our own car - and set our own future. And then, of course, protection of our life; the value of the individual life is so important.

Tammy 40:15

You know, I love these three. I was just thinking when you were telling your story, they just for many of us, they seem obvious like, Well, of course I would get to have all those things. But like you said, Brady, there's many places that don't allow that. And so here we're being taught a really important truth: this is what God thinks is important for us. Like, this is a divine thing; this is what we will have when He comes. When Christ comes again, this will still exist. That's kind of cool. Yeah. Well what, what could this section mean to those who don't live in the United States? I'm just thinking about our, there's a lot of listeners who don't live here.

Tyler Collet 40:51

That is a good question. I was just thinking, as you asked that, I've never had the experience of living outside of the United States. So I can only speculate. But I was raised with this. This is what I understand, this is what I know. But that's what they're used to. That's what they know, in China. I don't know. Does that make any sense? Yeah, yeah,

Brady MacKay 41:15

I found, you know, there's a couple Articles of Faith, you know, that start with "We believe" also, like this section does. But the 12th Article of Faith was one that we used quite a bit overseas, particularly in talking with members, or citizens of other countries about our beliefs, and how can the church prosper in a land that has a different political system than the one in the United States. And that verse, that Article of Faith is: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

So whatever land we live in, we honor obey and sustain the law, but we also as citizens, it's incumbent upon us to do what we can to hold government accountable. And that's difficult in some countries, but still to exercise whatever freedoms and rights you have to select your leaders and to influence the laws of your land. It's difficult in some places, I know, but at least in our country, this is important and for this instruction, the 12th Article of Faith was given constantly to Saints in other lands where freedoms do not bound, this Article of Faith.

Tammy 42:25

Right. It reminded me of verse 6: "We believe that every man should be honored in his station, rulers and magistrates as such". Like it, I like how it started out that way. Do you think section 134 could be a section of hope for those who don't get to exercise these rights, that someday they will?

Brady MacKay 42:45

For sure. I mean, the interesting thing is, is most countries in the world have a constitution, and many of them are very similar to ours. But what's the difference? The adherence to it, and maintaining that standard, and insisting that the constitutional values are maintained throughout all the legal and judicial and legislative actions that are taken in that land. So for example, in our land we have the right to choose and elect our officials, and we can influence them in the laws they make.

And as it teaches us in the Book of Mormon, a people choose the leaders they deserve. And they also set the standards that their country will follow. And we learn in the Book of Mormon how dangerous it is to let those standards slip. But yes, the, and continuing on in verse 6 here, it says right after the protection of such: "being placed in the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty; and to the laws all men show respect and deference, as without them peace and harmony would be supplanted by anarchy and terror;" Those are true words. We're so blessed.

Tyler Collet 43:59

We really are, and, and to kind of complement what Brady was just saying and also to, I think look at another answer to Tammy, your question just a moment ago. In April 2021's Conference talk by President Dallin H Oaks. He says "Today, every nation except three have adopted written constitutions." So that's kind of to what Brady was saying. And he says in his talk, "The United States Constitution is unique, because God revealed that He established it for the rights and protection of all flesh. That is why this constitution is of special concern for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world. Whether or how its principles should be applied in other nations of the world, is for them to decide."

Brady MacKay 44:52

The interesting thing about our Constitution, also, is we look at rights that we possess as individual citizens, as inalienable. They came from God. They are not bestowed upon us by government. In fact, our constitution limits any right that isn't articulated to the government, as not existing for the government. And so we are given rights from God and government cannot interfere in those. And that's another unique thing about our Constitution and the way we interpret it.

Tammy 45:20

Yeah. Well, and what both of you were saying it reminded me of verse 11, where it's set up that we believe that men should appeal to the civil law for red dress, for redress? redress. (laughs) I can't even say that word, I mean, I was so impressed that Tyler got in Violot. In, I can't even see these words seriously, I can't even say the words. Verse 11. Tyler read that for us, just the very beginning, I guess.

Tyler Collet 45:45

11 "We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded."

Tammy 46:16

Thank you, and that word redress, meaning to make something right. What did you guys think about verse 8, at the very end of verse 8, where it says, "...all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against the good laws to punishment"?

Tyler Collet 46:31


Are you asking what I think?

Tammy 46:33

I am asking what you think, because I'm like,

Tyler Collet 46:37

That takes me be back to my patrol days.

Tammy 46:40

Why? Tell me.

Tyler Collet 46:41

Well, not just that, but that also takes me to my investigative days as well. But I mean, on patrol, right, a majority of the time we're responding to calls for service. And that can be anything from something as simple as doing a VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) inspection for somebody, but it could also be to responding to, you know, a home invasion that just occurred, and now we're, we're looking for the bad guy. I mean, it's all men should step forward and use their ability in bringing offenders against good, good laws to punishment. Right?

So I mean, here in Utah, anyways, I can't speak to the other state laws, but you know, I'm very well-versed in the state laws here in Utah. And, and, I mean, it's written for you, right, so you can't get it wrong, but it's like, okay, you know, we have a suspect, we have a crime that was committed. Whatever the severity of that crime is, then the judge ultimately makes the decision, or a jury makes the decision of, Yeah, we find him guilty, or No, we don't.

Brady MaacKay 47:45

And in line with, in line with that is, there's a couple of ways to look at this when it says that all men should step forward and use their ability to bring offenders against good laws to punishment. I'm sure Tyler saw this: the frustration you may have with getting people involved, for example, apathy amongst witnesses or citizens to help with this. For example, witnesses that didn't want to give statements or didn't want to testify because of fear, or, or they were busy, or they didn't want to get involved, the apathy of the general citizenry in some areas to not get involved in the fear of being a witness, but also jury duty. So, people will do all they can to avoid jury duty, but that's the civic responsibility that we have. So,

Tyler Collet 48:31

Here in Utah, if you don't go to jury duty, the judge could issue a warrant for your arrest, just so you know.

Tammy 48:37

Wow! I want it so bad. I've never been able to do it. Pick me. I want to do jury duty more than anything. I've never been summoned. And I think it'd be so awesome.

Brady MacKay 48:49

Yeah. Until you get that three-month trial, Tammy, and then it's a long jury duty. No, but it's important.

Tammy 48:59

Yeah, I'm the one. I'm like, I'll witness, you bet.

Brady MacKay 49:01

I would love, I'd love to have you on a jury. I really would.

Tyler Collet 49:05

Brady makes an excellent point with that "all men". And he is absolutely correct. There's been many times where we have had a witness either recant something, or just refuse to cooperate with law enforcement in general. We see a lot of that with domestic violence situations. It also happens everywhere else, you know, if someone is, is road raging, and and the person calls in and our dispatcher will say, "Well, do you want to sign - will you sign a statement, basically, that you observed this?" Well, 9 times out of 10 if we end up even finding the vehicle that was involved, we're not, we didn't witness that. The person that called it in witnessed it, so they would have to be the witness for the state when it comes time to go to court. And when we explain that to 'em, they're like, Oh, no, I don't want anything to do with that.

Tammy 49:52

Yeah, I really liked the way you took that verse. I'd never considered it, the opposite side of that. I just love everything you guys are saying, such good stuff. Okay, so in the next segment, then, we're going to jump into more of section 134 and hear what you guys have to say about what we're being taught in this section.

Segment 6 50:09

Tammy 50:10

Alright guys, here we go. Okay, section 135, there's so many 'we believes'. We have to mark verse 10. This is the, sorry, we have to mark verses 9 and 10. This is where we have the 'church and state should be separate'. Again, I love this, Joseph Smith 1835, is teaching that. So smart. Anything else that stood out to you?

Brady MacKay 50:28

Well, it's interesting, if I may. I understood that the phrase 'separation of church and state' didn't even exist in our canons of law until the 1950s. But what people have have mistakenly said, or interpreted is that it is the elimination of religion from the state. And it's not. It's only that the Constitution says, and it's pointed out here clearly in this section, that a state will not designate a religion of the state, remembering that many of these people have come from European powers, particularly England, where the church was the king. And they didn't want that. And so, yes, but it's not the elimination of religion from the state, it's just that the state will not designate a religion.

Tammy 50:31


Tyler Collet 50:33

And see, and I'm going to piggyback on that, and I'm going to say, I'm going to refer to the 11th Article of Faith, where, you know, we believe in being able to worship God and allowing others the same privilege, no matter where, who, or what they may. I think goes along right with what Brady was saying.

Tammy 51:41

Yeah, awesome. Keep going, what do you got?

Brady MacKay 51:45

Well, I'm just, I'm looking here at the third verse in 134. 3 "We believe that all governments necessarily require civil officers, magistrates," (guys like Tyler) "to enforce the laws of the same; and that such as will administer the law in equity and justice should be sought for and upheld by the voice of the people if a republic, or the will the sovereign."

So, we need to have law enforcement here that gives order to society. That is what separates us from from anarchy is the laws that we have, and the enforcement of them, where they are administered equally, and justice should be sought for all and upheld. I mean, personally, I went to trial a lot of times, a lot of cases in court, a lot of statements before judges in courts. And I, my whole goal was to make sure the law was administered equally and justly. It wasn't that I punish anybody, but it's that people be held accountable under the law. That the moment that we stop doing that as a society, we will suffer greatly.

If you can imagine in God's kingdom, if His laws that were irrevocably decreed before the foundations of the world were not adhered to, the chaos it would cause, and His plan and God would no longer be God. But in our society, we have the right to elect people who will legislate laws, as Tyler said. And then we have the right to, in many cases, even elect law enforcement heads, or city councils that will appoint them, that will enforce the laws equally and bring justice to all.

And that is what we should always seek and we have to, we have to seek it at all times. Because that the moment you quit adhering to a standard or maintaining that standard, it will diminish society immediately. And so this section, you know, coming from my background, I love it. But it also gives me clarity now as a private citizen of my responsibilities, the government's responsibility. I love this first verse. "....governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man"; for the benefit of man, okay, it brings clarity.

Tyler Collet 53:57

I appreciate Brady's, the word that he used as he was describing this, he used the word punish, right? Because in law enforcement in general, whether you're in enforcement, whether you're in corrections, I fear that some people in our country anyway, view law enforcement as just, they're just out to punish and, you know, whatever. But that couldn't be any further from the truth.

We once said when I started my law enforcement career in corrections, You have total control over these individuals. They've been convicted of felony crimes. So they're not in there for singing too high in the church choir, right? They've been committed, convicted of felony crimes, and you literally have control over their lives. You control when they come out to eat, you control when they go to bed, you control.

Yeah, I mean, there's just there's just so much control that correctional officers have over these individuals. And you know, I did see some people abuse that when I was in corrections, and I would have to remind them, we're not here to punish them, we're just here to make sure that the institution is running safely and that everybody is playing nice with each other. That's it. The judges are the ones that carry out the sentences. They're the ones that say, I mean, they have guidelines that they follow that's set up by the legislature on specific crimes; the judges have that authority to issue that punishment, if you will.

It's not our job as law enforcement to do any further punishing. That's just, there was no punishing from law enforcement to begin with. It's, you got caught, we caught you, we brought you before, you know, the judicial system, and then they're doing their thing. And that's just what, you know, you have control over your actions, but you don't have control over your consequences.

Tammy 55:51

You know, Tyler, I'm thankful that you brought that up. I'm grateful for that perspective. And section 134, Brady, what you said, both of you, how it's ordained of God for the benefit of man. And we have to remember that.

Brady MacKay 56:02

I have to add one thing and it ties in with Tyler. My beloved mother, who recently passed away, when I went into this line of work was concerned that I would lose my soul, that I will be calloused to to humankind. And I, like Tyler, had many people in front of me in handcuffs, whose lives were at the lowest point the, in their life at the time that I met 'em, I ran into them. I saw people at their worst. And you can lose compassion and humanity towards them if you're not careful. But I remember, as Tyler said, looking at so many people in handcuffs in the back of a car, in a holding cell, in an interrogation room, and your heart would ache for them because they'd make mistakes.

And your job was to apprehend them and bring them before the courts, where judges will make decisions. And the one thing, one of my greatest privileges was working with judges with integrity. Some of the highest quality people you'll ever meet that have to make, they have to 'divide the baby like King Solomon' every day. And the thing that I saw working not only in the United States, but overseas was, what separated us from the third world and from other countries that had anarchy and tyranny was judges with integrity and law enforcement that maintained the standard and adherence to constitutional values. And so this section to me, has great value. It's dear to my heart.

Tammy 57:38

I can tell, for both of you that this section means a lot to you. And I like how it ends in verse 12. The last 'we believe'. Tyler, will you read the beginning of verse 12, and end with the word 'world'.

Tyler Collet 57:53

12 "We believe it just to preach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world;......"

Tammy 58:01

I want to know what you guys think about that verse?

Brady MacKay 58:02

Well, justice will be served and established upon the earth when the Savior returns. Man's best attempts at justice and equity and freedom and, and all the wonderful virtues we're talking about today, fall short, sometimes, but in God's kingdom, they will not. But for people who do not live in such a wonderful land with so many blessings as we do, when we go and preach the gospel to them and tell them of hope, faith, and charity that's to come in the Lord's Kingdom, it brings a lot of joy to people. And I can tell you that personally, where I was involved with the church in lands that did not have freedom, and citizens there do not enjoy what we did but the gospel of Jesus Christ brought them the hope in a, in a just and equal world to come.

Tyler Collet 58:15

As I was listening to your story, Brady, I liked how you started out by saying, you know, we follow the law of the land there in China, and how you'd mentioned that there are those living in countries that have to follow those laws or else there's horrible punishments. And it, I, I found my quote that I wanted to read, if I can read it. It's a little long, but it ties into what Brady was saying. And again, this is an October 2020 conference talk and then once again, President Dallin H. Oaks in his talk "Love Your Enemies". And he's referring to the laws of the land, and because man is imperfect, right?

And sometimes legislators legislate laws that we don't agree with, quite honestly. And we just got to remember that they're imperfect, they're man. He says in his talk, how do we keep these divine commandments?, and obviously referring to God's commandments.

"How do we keep these divine commandments in a world where we are also subject to the laws of man? Fortunately, we have the Savior's own example of how to balance His eternal laws with the practicalities of man-made laws. When adversaries sought to trap him with a question about whether Jews should pay taxes to Rome, He pointed to the image of Caesar on their coins and declared, 'Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.' So we are to follow the laws of men, (render unto Caesar) to live peacefully under civil authority, and we follow the laws of God toward our eternal destination." That's my exclamation point, boom!

Tammy 1:00:42

Yes, tell me why?

Tyler Collet 1:00:44

Well, it's just that we follow the laws of man to live peacefully under civil authority, and that can relate to here in the United States. That can relate to Canada, to Mexico, to Australia, to China, even. And we follow the laws of God toward eternal destination, because that's where we eventually want to go anyways. That's eventually where we want to be. So yeah, we'll bite our tongue and in our mortal life, and drive the speed limit down the highway, right? But at the same time, we're also going to be, we're going to exercise repentance, we're going to use the atonement, right? We're going to be Christ-like towards our fellow man. We're going to love God, which is the first and greatest commandment, the second like unto it: love thy neighbor.

Tammy 1:01:30

Wow! Great exclamation point. What a great way to end!

Brady MacKay 1:01:35

I like that. That's great, Tyler. Thank you.

Tammy 1:01:37

So good! Wow! Well, thank you, both of you! Thanks for being here today! Wow, that was a great episode! Thank you for your help both of you for teaching that! Okay. So just gather your thoughts for a minute and just share what a takeaway is - something that you learned today, or that you'll take away with you. Look back over section 133 and 134.

Brady MacKay 1:01:56

My takeaway from section 133 is that it's time for us to prepare for the second coming, the Bridegroom is on His way; it's time for us to prepare together as Zion, to restore Israel, and spread the gospel throughout the world. That's my takeaway there. In the 134th section, my takeaway is very simply: governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man, and then our civic duties as citizens within any society articulated in the 134 session. And it gives me guidance on how I can raise my children, teach my family, and to conduct my life. And I'm grateful for those sections.

Tammy 1:02:34

I will Amen that, Brady; great takeaway. Thank you! Tyler,

Tyler Collet 1:02:38

You know, as I was thinking about it, mine's more or less to be in the world, but not of the world. And that's kind of relation to the, to President Oaks' talk to where we live the laws of the land to have civil peace. But we also live the laws of God for our eternal progression.

Tammy 1:02:59

Um-hmm. Absolutely, I will absolutely back that up. Thank you. Thank you. Both of you, when you both focused on the word hearken, I thought that was incredible. And I loved how you both - that was something that meant a lot to you as you were reading that because I marked it, but I just moved on. And for both of you to come prepared today, having thought that that word meant something, it really does. And when you consider that section 133 would have been the last thing that we would have read at the time, the last thing that the Lord's gonna say to us, and then we're going to go on our merry way.

I love how He starts it with Hearken, and then He says, 'And by the way, I'm coming, so you better get ready.' And it just goes back to what both you said, Brady, and I love that both of you had that as your takeaway, because my takeaway are your takeaways, and that fleeing from Babylon, go out from Babylon, Tyler. You just said to like, get ready and go. And it was a great, great discussion. And so I'm so grateful for your preparation, both of you.

Okay, well, I would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or following us on Instagram, just go do it. And you can ask questions throughout the week. And if you have any other questions for our guests today, please ask them on Facebook and Instagram and they will answer them. And then at the end of the week, on a Saturday, we do a post for your takeaway. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson, and let us know what you've learned.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS and, go there anyway, because that's where we're going to have a link to the references that we've used as well as a transcript of this entire discussion. So go check that out.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original; it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our very incredibly adept and experienced study group participants were Brady MacKay and Tyler Collet. And you can find more information about them at LDS Our podcast is produced by Erika Free and me; it is recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

And please remember that Jesus is coming and you're His favorite.

Tyler Collet 1:05:06

But on our actual wedding day when we were married civily, yeah, like I actually wore a homemade suit that my mom made me.

Tammy 1:05:17

But let's be clear, his mother is a masterful seamstress.

Tyler Collet 1:05:20

I take that back. That was for my first marriage. Sorry. That's my first one.

Tammy 1:05:27

All right, redo. We'll cut that.

Tyler Collet 1:05:31

Mine was just, uh, you know, a nice pair of church slacks and a nice shirt and tie.

Tammy 1:05:35

Okay, what about you, Brady?

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