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47: “To Keep Them in the Right Way” (Moroni 1­–6)

Mon Nov 30 16:58:23 EST 2020
Episode 47

“Wondering for the safety of his life.” This is how the book of Moroni begins. It’s difficult to even imagine the loneliness and sorrow Moroni must have felt as he watched all of his family and friends perish. Though he didn't think he would live long enough to write them, Moroni's words in Moroni 1–6 are vital to us as members. So grab your scriptures and let’s dig into what Moroni has to teach us.

Segment 1:

The who, what, when and where of the book of Moroni:

WHO: Moroni wrote this book, which includes his own words, the words of Jesus Christ to His twelve Nephite disciples (see Moroni 2), and the words of his father, Mormon (see Moroni 7–9).

WHAT/WHO IT WAS WRITTEN FOR: “I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day” (Moroni 1:4; see also Moroni 10:1). He also declared that he spoke “unto all the ends of the earth,” warning that at the judgment bar of God, all would be held accountable for the words he had written (see Moroni 10:24, 27). In preparation for this event, Moroni invited all to “come unto Christ” (Moroni 10:30, 32). And today we will see how specifically chapters 1-6 were written for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

WHERE/WHEN: Moroni likely wrote and compiled this book between the years AD 401 and AD 421 (see Mormon 8:4–6; Moroni 10:1). He did not say where he was when he wrote it—only that he wandered wherever he could for the safety of his life (see Moroni 1:1–3).

(See 2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual, "Introduction to the Book of Moroni," ).

Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of aworth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord (Moroni 1:4).

Erikson's Seventh Stage of Psychological Development:

Stage 7 – Adulthood period: Generativity vs. Stagnation/Self-absorption

  • Virtue: Care, Maldevelopment: Rejectivity
  • Example: Engagement with the next generation through parenting, coaching, or teaching

(See Gabriel A. Orenstein; Lindsay Lewis, "Erikson's Stages of Psychosocial Development," StatPearls

Segment 2:

Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of abridging the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed anot to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me (Moroni 1:1). 

Trauma Narrative: "Is a psychological technique used to help survivors of trauma make sense of their experiences, while also acting as a form of exposure to painful memories.

"Without treatment, the memories of a trauma can feel like a jumbled mess—an unbearable wash of images, sounds, and emotions. When completing a trauma narrative, the story of a traumatic experience will be told repeatedly through verbal, written, or artistic means. Sharing and expanding upon a trauma narrative allows the individual to organize their memories, making them more manageable, and diminishing the painful emotions they carry" ("Trauma Narratives," Therapist Aid, ).

And I, Moroni, will not adeny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life (Moroni 1:3).

"It came to pass"

"The English translation of the Hebrew word wayehi (often used to connect two ideas or events), 'and it came to pass,' appears some 727 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament. The expression is rarely found in Hebrew poetic, literary, or prophetic writings. Most often, it appears in the Old Testament narratives, such as the books by Moses recounting the history of the children of Israel."

"But why does the phrase 'and it came to pass' appear in the Book of Mormon so much more often, page for page, than it does in the Old Testament? . . . the translators of the King James Version did not always render wayehi as 'and it came to pass.' Instead, they were at liberty to draw from a multitude of similar expressions like 'and it happened,' 'and . . . became,' or 'and . . . was.'

"Wayehi is found about 1,204 times in the Hebrew Bible, but it was translated only 727 times as 'and it came to pass' in the King James Version. Joseph Smith did not introduce such variety into the translation of the Book of Mormon. He retained the precision of 'and it came to pass,' which better performs the transitional function of the Hebrew word.

"The Prophet Joseph Smith may not have used the phrase at all—or at least not consistently—in the Book of Mormon had he created that record. The discriminating use of the Hebraic phrase in the Book of Mormon is further evidence that the record is what it says it is—a translation from a language (reformed Egyptian) with ties to the Hebrew language (See Morm. 9:32–33.)" (Donald W. Parry, "Why is the phrase 'and it came to pass' so prevalent in the Book of Mormon?", Ensign, December 1992).

Quote: “In faithful obedience to his father’s direction,[Moroni] finished the record on the gold plates. He became familiar with the writings of the prophets. Above all, he fought his way out of his discouragement by clinging to the Lord’s promises for the future. He clung to the covenants that God had made with the house of Israel to bless them forever” (Susan W. Tanner, “Glad Tidings from Cumorah,” Ensign, May 2005, 105).

Segment 3:

Based on the chapter headings from Moroni 2, 3, 4, and 5, what is Moroni writing to us about?

Chapter 2: "Jesus gave the twelve Nephite disciples power to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. About A.D. 401–21."

Chapter 3: "Elders ordain priests and teachers by the laying on of hands. About A.D. 401–21."

Chapter 4: "How elders and priests administer the sacramental bread is explained. About A.D. 401–21."

Chapter 5: "The mode of administering the sacramental wine is set forth. About A.D. 401–21."

Joseph Receiving Instruction from Moroni:

On September 23, 1823, the night that Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith three times, Joseph Smith would have been 17 years old, turning 18 in December (JSH 1:30-53)

Joseph followed Moroni’s instructions and went to the hill where the plates were deposited. Moroni told Joseph he could not take the plates yet but told Joseph to come back to the hill on the same day every year for the next four years.

What happened every time Joseph went back?

54 Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year, and at each time I found the same messenger there, and received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews, respecting what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his akingdom was to be conducted in the last days (JSH 1:54).

Moroni quoting what Jesus told the 12 disciples:

And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall acall on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have bpower that to him upon whom ye shall lay your chands, dye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.

Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they alaid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost (Moroni 2:2–3).

Segment 4:

What is the significance of the word "souls" in Moroni 4:3?

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and asanctify this bbread to the souls of all those who partake of it; . . . (Moroni 4:3).

How can we "always remember" Christ?

History of the first Sacrament Meeting:

After the translation of the Book of Mormon, on March 26, 1830, it was available for public sale.

Eleven days later, Tuesday, April 6, 1830, the Church was established, and the first sacrament meeting took place in the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. in Fayette Township, New York. Joseph was 24 years old.

Baptismal Covenants: "T.A.K.E."

T—Take His Name Upon Us

A—Always Remember Him

K—Keep His Commandments

E—Endure to the End

Segment 5:

"Of the fifteen Latter-day Saint prophets, two were baptized in rivers, one in an outdoor baptismal font, one in an indoor font, one in a stream, five in creeks, two in ponds, one in a swimming pool, one in a canal, and one in a tub and then in a canal.

"Spencer W. Kimball was baptized in Thatcher, Arizona, March 28, 1903, in the hog-scalding tub that was also used as the family’s bathtub. His father stood outside the tub, which some people felt was not a correct way to baptize. To be sure that Spencer was properly baptized, he was baptized again, when he was twelve years old, in the Union Canal just a block away from his home" (William Hartley; updated by Rebecca Todd, "Our Prophets’ Places of Baptism," August 1997 Friend).

And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth afruit meet that they were bworthy of it (Moroni 6:1).

  • Fruit = Action

What action is needed to be baptized?

Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a abroken bheart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.

And none were received unto baptism save they atook upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end (Moroni 6:2–3).

What instructions are we given for the care of all members?

And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and acleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the bchurch of Christ; and their cnames were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually dwatchful unto prayer, erelying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith (Moroni 6:4).

  • Nourish and Remember

Quote: "Coming into the Church can be a perilous experience. Unless there are warm and strong hands to greet the convert, unless there is an outreach of love and concern, he will begin to wonder about the step he has taken. Unless there are friendly hands and welcome hearts to greet him and lead him along the way, he may drop by the side.

"These converts are precious. Every convert is a son or daughter of God. Every convert is a great and serious responsibility. It is an absolute imperative that we look after those who have become a part of us” (President Gordon B. Hinckley, “Find the Lambs, Feed the Sheep,” May 1999 Ensign, 108).

Segment 6:

And the achurch did meet together boft, to cfast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

And they did ameet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in bremembrance of the Lord Jesus (Moroni 6:5–6).

Listen starting at 28:17 for the story Tammy references:
This Is the Gospel: Episode 57 "Fitting In"

Quote: "If you put shame in a Petri dish, it needs three things to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence and judgment. If you put the same amount of shame in a Petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can’t survive," (Dr. Brene Brown, "Listening to Shame," ).

And their meetings were aconducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the bpower of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done (Moroni 6:9).

0:00:00 Tammy Uzelac Hall: While wandering for the safety of his life. This is the beginning scenario of the Book of Moroni. Now, I know that this has been a very real scenario for many of our brothers and sisters, and I cannot even begin to imagine what that would be like. In fact, I kinda tried. I wondered, "Alright, if I was wandering for the safety of my own life, what would I do? What would that be like? How would I spend my days? What does it look like, and how would I feel emotionally and physically and mentally?" When I think back to some of my journal entries during what may have seemed like the most difficult time in my life, let's just say I probably need to burn those pages. I have nothing important to share, nothing powerful of any spiritual significance that could really benefit anyone. And yet, it's incredible to me that Moroni wrote what could be considered his last journal entries for us.

0:00:49 TH: In fact, he didn't just write what my journal may have sounded like. It probably would have gone like, "Today was okay. Sure wish I didn't have to hide all the time. Sure do wish I had a friend and maybe a Coke and an eclair to get me through this, maybe some cheese." But no, today in Moroni chapters one through six, we will see how beneficial Moroni's last words were to all members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which will include what I think could be the most timely and significant sermon in the Book of Mormon.

0:01:16 TH: Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ Original, brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and if you're new to our study group, this lasts about an hour long. And so you can sit and listen to it all the way through, but I think something that's really cool and unique about it is that it's broken up into six different segments. And each segment is about 10 to 12 minutes long, so you can just study your scriptures for 10 to 12 minutes a day. And at the end of each segment, you'll hear a little bit of music play, so that you know that's when the segment is finished. Well, and however you listen to it, here's what I love, is when you guys share thoughts and ideas throughout the week of how you're listening to the podcast and things that are standing out to you, like our friend who's listening in Italy. So this is kind of cool. After a discussion that we had on tear jars, she sent me the coolest picture of a statue of a saint from a cathedral in Italy. And the saint had this walking staff, and on the end of the walking staff it appears to have what looks like a tear jar. And I loved that she shared that with me. So thank you, Regina Sherwood. I think it's Farson, Fairson. I'm not even sure.

0:02:17 TH: Anyway, Regina, we're just so glad you're studying with us. So thanks for sending me that picture. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is I get to have friends join me. And so today we have two of my really good friends, Aliah Hall and Karen Zelnick. Hi guys.

0:02:32 Karen Zelnick Rivera: Hi.

0:02:32 Aliah Hall: Hello everyone.

0:02:35 TH: Hello. Karen, what's your new last name, you newlywed?

0:02:39 KR: Rivera.

0:02:41 TH: Colin's... Karen Zelnick Rivera. Are you gonna hyphenate, Zelnick-Rivera?

0:02:44 KR: I don't think I'm gonna hyphenate, but I think I'm going to keep all of them. I don't know. It's a dilemma, which is why I haven't changed it yet. [chuckle]

0:02:51 TH: Well, I get it about getting married older, that's why I kept my last name, Tamara Uzelac Hall.

0:02:55 AH: It sounds funny.

0:02:56 TH: And Aliah you were with Karen's husband a couple of weeks ago, couple months ago.

0:03:00 AH: I was. I was.

0:03:02 TH: So Colin, for those of you listening...

0:03:02 AH: Well, we weren't with each other, but we were on the podcast together.

0:03:04 TH: On the podcast together. And Collin's our dear friend with the lovely English accent. And so Karen and Colin got married.

0:03:10 KR: We did.

0:03:11 TH: I predicted it, I'm just taking the credit right here, right now.

0:03:15 KR: She really did, months before we... A little before we started dating.


0:03:19 TH: So if you wanna see how cute they are and how cute Aliah's family is, go to our show notes at and you can see pictures and read a fun bio about them. So Moroni chapter one through six. You guys, six chapters, 25 verses in all. And I gotta be honest, when I read it and I saw how short it was, I thought, "How in the world are we gonna get six segments out of this?" Did you guys think that too?

0:03:43 AH: No.

0:03:43 KR: Well, at first I was like, "I have six chapters to read to prep for this," and I opened it up, I was like, "Oh, these chapters. It's not gonna take that long to read. [chuckle]

0:03:49 TH: Twenty-five verses in all. Yeah, I'm done. I can finish this in 20 minutes.

0:03:53 AH: I think I was like, "Oh, I could spend an hour on just chapter one."

0:03:57 TH: Alright, well, let's just...

0:04:00 KR: So she's more righteous than all of us.

0:04:00 AH: No...

0:04:00 TH: Challenge accepted.

0:04:01 AH: I was just like, "This is a trauma narrative. That's right up my alley."

0:04:04 TH: Well, I can't wait. Okay, we're gonna get to that. I'm so excited. So friends, grab your scriptures and let's just dig in. So this week in the Come, Follow Me manual that the church has, I really liked how it started out, this discussion of the Book of Moroni. And it actually said that he hoped that it would be of worth in some future day, and then it asked this question, "What did you find in Moroni one through six that is of worth to you?" So Aliah and Karen, I asked you that a week or two ago when I asked you to be on a podcast. And I wanna know, What did you find that's of worth to you?

0:04:39 AH: I have never read the scriptures from the point of view of a therapist, that's just not a hat that I put on at church or with family or friends or when I'm reading the scriptures. But because you asked that question, I kind of put that hat on. And I was reading this and I was like, "Oh my goodness, this is a trauma narrative, and he has all the components of what we know psychologically about trauma."

0:05:10 TH: Okay, that...

0:05:10 KR: So she can talk for an hour about this, and I can listen for an hour about this.


0:05:13 KR: 'Cause I can get fascinated by stuff. I wish I had gone into psychology, but...

0:05:18 TH: Oh, I'm the same way. And Aliah, I'm glad you brought that up, 'cause we will dig into the trauma of this in the next couple of segments, so... Oh, I can't wait. Thank you.

0:05:26 KR: The phrase that stuck out most to me this time as I was prepping for the podcast was that to "keep continually watchful unto prayer relying alone upon the merits of Christ who's the author and finisher of our faith." And I just think about how that source of faith and hope, we can rely on that, and that is enough.

0:05:46 TH: And how powerful that will need to be for us, not only the end of 2020, but going into 2021.

0:05:52 KR: Yeah, did you listen to conference? Did you feel like you're like, "What do you know that I don't? What's coming?"


0:05:57 TH: Yeah.

0:05:57 KR: Like, "Okay."

0:06:00 TH: Totally. Thank you for bringing that up, both of you. Okay, these are great things, and we're gonna get into all of that in the next couple of segments. So let's just go through really quickly the who, what, and where of this book. So who wrote the Book of Moroni? This is what we need to know. Moroni wrote it, but it also includes, not just his own words, but the words of Jesus Christ to his 12 disciples, as well as the words of his father, Mormon. Who it was written for? Moroni tells us in chapter 1, verse 4. He says, "I write a few more things that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day." And then he goes on to say also that he's writing them unto all the ends of the Earth, and so he's talking to us as well. So we are gonna see today specifically how chapters 1 through 6 were written for the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

0:06:48 AH: It's really interesting that you said that, Tammy, because that particular part of what Moroni says fits into a psychological theory by Erikson, it's called the stages of psychological development. And the seventh stage in that development process is generativity versus stagnation, and what that really is a legacy building. There comes a time in all of our lives when we really start to think about what are we leaving behind for family and our friends and the world in general. And that that's a developmental stage that we all go through, given that we live long enough.

0:07:25 TH: And you're seeing that in Moroni's words when he says, "To my Lamanite brethren in some future day," and then, "Unto all the ends of the earth."

0:07:32 AH: Yeah, so he's really looking to make sense of his whole life and to be what we call generative. Like, "Okay, what is the legacy that I'm gonna leave behind?" And I think that's interesting, because he's just talked about like, "I'm not dead yet, and I'm still wandering around, so what should I do?" And he's like, "Oh, I should probably figure out the meaning and purpose of my whole life."

0:07:52 TH: Wow, Aliah, that is incredible. Thank you for sharing that and pointing that out. I would never have known that. That is awesome. So let me just tell you real quick the when and the where. Here's when he wrote it and where he wrote it. We know that he wrote... It was likely written between the years of 401 AD and 421 AD. And he never did say specifically where he was when he wrote it, only that he wandered wherever he could for the safety of his life. So Aliah, I just wanna go back to what you said then, when you pointed out that he was leaving this for some future generation, and that is a part of the process of life. And so I'm so excited to jump into the next segment, because we're gonna start talking about what it is that Moroni left for us.

Segment 2

0:08:38 TH: Alright, I just wanna jump right into the scriptures. Let's go to Moroni chapter one, and we're gonna read verse three. And Karen, will you please read that for us.

0:08:46 KR: "And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ. Wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life."

0:08:53 TH: Okay, let's talk about that. Wandering for the safety of your own life. What comes to mind when you think about Mormon's plight?

0:09:00 AH: Well, how it stood out to me, if we jump back to verse one, because he says, "Now I, Moroni, after having made an end of the abridgment of the account of the people of Jared, I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished." I think that's really important to point out. He was like, "I did the work that I was called to do. I abridged all of these things, and I thought I would be dead by now." Like, almost some survivor guilt. "All of my people, all of my family, everybody I have ever known is either captured, have gone away with the Lamanites, or are dead. And here I am, still alive. Why am I alive?" And that's the question that I hear him asking, is, "After all of this, why am I still alive?"

0:10:01 TH: So Aliah, tell us then, what does this do to the human psyche? 'Cause you called this a trauma narrative. I just want you to tell me what you would estimate is going on in his mind. Have you ever counseled someone who's ever had to flee for the safety of their life in any sort of way?

0:10:17 AH: So yes, in a lot of different capacities. I work for an organization called Utah Health and Human Rights that counsels refugees that are torture survivors. And although that's really on the extreme version of the spectrum, I also tell people when you're a hammer, everything is a nail. And so to me, everybody has trauma. And it's not just people who have underwent these huge life-altering experiences, but none of us make it out of this life without experiencing some trauma. And what trauma does to us, and you can see it here in Moroni, it starts to make us question our own reality.

0:11:04 TH: So, Aliah, tell me how you think he's questioning his reality.

0:11:07 AH: Well, he's saying like, "I have not yet perished," and then he goes on and says, "And I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they destroy me." So he's weighing both of this idea of, "If I let people see me, I'm gonna be destroyed. But if I stay here hidden, I just keep living on and on by myself, lonely and without anybody else." And those are like... That is trauma right there. Like the two things that we talk about that cause trauma is threat to life or loss of control, and Moroni is experiencing both of those things.

0:11:45 TH: Yeah. Okay, so all of that then gives so much more weight to the very beginning of verse three. I have read this so many times, and every time I read it I'm like, "Well, good for Moroni. How great is that? Look at him, still believing in Christ." But now that we know he's coming from a place of trauma, when you say, "And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ," when he has every reason to. Like, "This isn't fair." He is in this trauma narrative, but then Satan's gotta be on his shoulder too: "Who's your God? No one's supporting you."

0:12:17 AH: The loneliness of it. Like, I can see him rationalizing. He's like, "Well, I could just deny Christ out loud, but in my heart, I still know that he is the Christ, just so that I won't be alone."

0:12:29 KR: Yeah, totally. And I don't even know what would be harder, would be to... Yeah, you're alone, but then you watch all these people that you love and care for, like you mentioned, either they're killed or they deny what they know to be true and what you know to be true. There's so much hardship and heartache and trauma that he's dealing with. Would anyone blame him if he was just like, "Look, guys, look, I'm a Lamanite, too"? Like, I don't know. I don't know.

0:12:52 TH: Totally. Like you would think that God would give him a pass somehow like, "Well, alright. Save yourself."

0:13:00 AH: Well, I think he was expecting...

0:13:00 KR: Or a friend! Give him someone else to go with him. Like...

0:13:03 AH: "Let me take a rib from you and create a woman."


0:13:06 TH: Yeah. [chuckle] Yeah, anybody. I know, right? Let a raven bring him something nice to eat.

0:13:12 KR: A pet. I don't know. [chuckle]

0:13:13 AH: But I think that's what we are hearing when he says, "I've not yet perished." He's like, "I did what you asked me to do, just take me home. I'm done here." And the Lord's like, "No, you're not done here, you got some other stuff to do." And he was like, "Alright, well what else?"

0:13:32 KR: What is it?

0:13:32 AH: "What is it that I need to do so I can get out of here?"

0:13:35 TH: Yes. Totally. Well, and in fact, I'm writing in my scriptures right now what you had just said, trauma narrative. And we have to know what this narrative is. It's in first person, and I think that's so interesting and so telling about how The Book of Mormon was translated and written. Because again, in my mind, Joseph Smith could not have done this. Because Moroni just got done abridging the Book of Ether. And in the book of Ether, there's a phrase that he uses 117 times, and it's called, "It came to pass." And we've talked about this before, and we talked about it in episode five, which go back and listen, 'cause it's so fun. But that phrase is pretty specific. It's everywhere throughout the Bible, but when it went and got re-translated, many of the translators were like, "Why is it came to pass so many times here?" So they'd change it for different words like "because" "of then" and different things like that.

0:14:22 TH: Well when Joseph Smith was translating The Book of Mormon, he could have easily been like, "Really? It came to pass that many times? Can't we substitute something else in?" But he didn't, he just kept translating it that way. And the reason why that's unique is because that phrase, "it came to pass", is a Hebrew writing style that's reserved for a narrative or a story being told. And Moroni's telling the story in Ether, but in the Book of Moroni, he's telling his own first person story. So it wouldn't need an, "It came to pass," and you're not gonna find it throughout here. So I thought that was pretty cool. I wanna read this quote by Sister Susan W. Tanner, and this is what she had to say about Moroni, in light of everything that we've just been discussing. And Karen, will you read this for us?

0:15:00 KR: In faithful obedience to his father's direction, Moroni finished the record on the gold plates. He became familiar with the writings of the prophets. Above all, he fought his way out of this discouragement by clinging to the Lord's promise for the future. He clung to the covenants that God had made with the House of Israel to bless them forever.

0:15:18 TH: I'm so grateful that we've been able to put this into perspective. I get now why you could talk about Moroni one for an hour, Aliah. That was pretty powerful. You know, I'm just so grateful that Moroni didn't get a pass, because the next four segments, we're gonna study the "few more things" that Moroni wrote. And I like how he said that... He said he was writing anything that was contrary to that which he supposed. Which, in my translation, I'm like, "He didn't think he was gonna write anything else." he's like, "Huh, I'm kind of shocked that I'm supposed to write something else." And so I'm excited for us to learn and see just how much we need that something else today.

Segment 3

0:15:53 TH: Aliah and Karen, all I want you to do is briefly scan the section headings of Moroni chapters two, three, four, and five, which is so easy to do, 'cause it's all in one page. And look over that quickly, and just tell me what are we gonna talk about in these next verses? How would you sum all these up?

0:16:08 KR: Priesthood ordinances.

0:16:11 TH: Perfect. In fact, at the top of my page, thank you Karen, I have written, "Priesthood ordinances" or "ordinances". Now, here's what's kind of cool, I want us to cross-reference. At the top of that page, if you write the word ordinances, put doctrine and covenants, section 84, verses 20 through 21. And let's go there.

0:16:31 KR: While we're turning, can I just say that ordinances is such a hard word to say.

0:16:35 TH: Ordinances.

0:16:36 KR: Ordinances. [chuckle]

0:16:38 TH: Okay, section 84, and we're gonna read verses 20 through 21. Aliah, will you read those for us, please?

0:16:46 AH: Therefore, in the ordinance is thereof the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinance is thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the powers of godliness is not manifest unto man in the flesh.

0:17:00 TH: So we're gonna see how these ordinances on this one page in the book of Mormon will absolutely testify of the power of godliness. It's gonna be so cool. So a little bit of church history. So on September 23rd, 1823, that's the night that Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith three times. And Joseph Smith would have been 17 years old, turning 18 that December. So to me already, I'm like, 17, that is so young. So Joseph...

0:17:27 AH: That's a baby.

0:17:27 TH: Yeah. So Joseph follows Moroni's instructions, and he goes to the hill where the plates were deposited. Moroni, he tells Joseph that he can't take the plates, but that he's supposed to come back to the hill on the same day every year for four years. Now...

0:17:39 AH: What teenager do you know that follows directions the first time?

0:17:43 TH: Right. [chuckle] This 17-year-old's gonna come back every year, same spot. Yeah, right there.

0:17:50 AH: Not my teen.

0:17:51 TH: Not my teen. Now, this is kind of cool, because here's what happened every time he went back. Turn to Joseph Smith History one verse 54. We're gonna read what happened every time he went back. Okay. And I'll reverse 54, 'cause this is what stood out to me. "Accordingly, as I had been commanded, I went at the end of each year. And each time I found the same messenger there. And I received... " And I want us to mark this. "I received instruction and intelligence from him at each of our interviews respecting what the Lord was going to do and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days." Here's Moroni teaching, instructing him, and giving him interviews, and telling him how the Lord's kingdom was gonna be conducted in the last days. And I just wonder if Moroni was ever like, "I wrote all about it in Moroni chapter one, verses two through five. You're gonna love it. It's gonna tell you everything you need, all the prayers, all the ordinances." Like...

0:18:43 KR: "Hurry up and translate."

0:18:45 TH: Yes. [chuckle] I wonder if even Moroni was like, "That's why I wrote it. Oh my gosh."

0:18:51 AH: He was like, "Oh, dang it."

0:18:53 TH: "I guess sticking around all that time was worth it."

0:18:53 KR: "It all makes sense now."

0:18:55 TH: Yeah, "It all makes sense now." 'Cause it's right here, everything he's gonna need to know. So Karen, you said at the beginning that these chapters were really short. So now what are you thinking about 'em?

0:19:06 KR: I mean, they're short, but they're meaty, which is great. I'm a big fan of efficiency and being very concise so...

0:19:12 TH: It's your job.

0:19:13 KR: Yeah. Right. [laughter] So I love that. I love that it's boiled down to the essentials, and that we can really study that.

0:19:21 TH: I appreciate that you just said that 'cause I hate nothing more than a wordy email. Just cut to the direct...

0:19:25 KR: I tell people all the time.

0:19:28 TH: Get to the point.

0:19:28 KR: You put your purpose in the first sentence, and then you maybe can supplement some stuff with the max of like five sentences.

0:19:34 TH: Bullet point what I need to see. And I think that's what Moroni did. It's concise. He's gonna bullet point exactly what we need. "Look, here's all you need. If you wanna know how to do this, here it is." Nothing flowery. Nothing wordy.

0:19:44 AH: I like it.

0:19:45 TH: Me too. So let's go into this instruction then. Here we go. Moroni Chapter Two. These are the words of Christ that he said unto his disciples who were the 12 whom he had chosen. And that is according to 3 Nephi 13. You can cross-reference that first verse with 3 Nephi 13. Those are the apostles he was speaking to. And then, Karen, will you please read Moroni chapter two verses two and three for us?

0:20:07 KR: "And ye called them by name, saying ye shall call on the father in my name in mighty prayer, and after you have done this ye shall have power that, to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost. And in my name shall ye give it for thus do mine apostles. For Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing, and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it, and on as many as they laid their hands fell the Holy Ghost."

0:20:30 TH: Power of godliness right there. The first thing right out of the gates is Moroni's teaching Joseph and us we need the Holy Ghost. And so I ask both of you, in your wonderful life experience, going back to maybe the first experience you had with the Holy Ghost or one that profoundly stands out to you, and I ask if you'd be willing to share one of those stories.

0:20:51 AH: So I'm gonna get super geeky nerdy on you right now.

0:20:54 TH: Oh, I love it. I love it.

0:20:56 AH: I think this is really important. So he's like having this dialogue about what am I supposed to do with the rest of my life, and then he teaches us about the Holy Ghost. And I think that's really interesting, because this is before what historically we would call the Enlightenment or the Renaissance. And what happens during the Enlightenment and the Renaissance is we move from kind of a religious world to a science world, and science wipes out every other kind of knowing. So this to me is where Moroni... The Lord is telling him, "You need to add this part in, not only for the Lamanites, but for all of the future people because we are gonna lose that ability to know things in other ways." And we have. If we look at the world, everything is about science. And I love science. I love, love science. I have a bachelor's in science. I love it. But there are other ways of knowing things. When I think of the Holy Ghost and how it's played a role in my life, I think about times where I have known things that don't make sense why I know them. But I know them in this deep, meaningful, powerful way that does not make sense in the modern scientific world. So my experience with the Holy Ghost is when I know something deeply and there's no reason for me to know it, that that's the Holy Ghost speaking to me.

0:22:32 TH: Well, Aliah, that gives so much more oomph and power to Moroni chapter seven. We're gonna study that next week, but we're gonna study specifically the part that tells us about how we can know things through the power of the Holy Ghost, so I love that you just shared that. Thank you.

0:22:47 KR: I know. Can we all pause for a second to just feel that?

0:22:51 TH: I know. I am. I'm like name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Let's go home. I've already learned too much. My brain is like...

0:22:57 KR: Our work here is done.

0:23:00 TH: Yes. Well, and in here it's interesting to me too specifically how we go about doing it, the laying on of hands. That's gonna get lost. That's one of the things throughout time. That will be lost, and it will have to be restored back onto the earth. So here's Joseph reading how it's gonna be done. It's a great example of the Holy Ghost. Thank you, Aliah. Karen, what about you?

0:23:24 KR: And with that, one thing that I will forever be grateful to my parents for is teaching me at a very young age how to recognize how the Spirit speaks to me. We'll get into it when we talk about the sacrament prayers, but having that spirit to always be with you is a real promise that I feel in my life. But speaking of things you just kind of know or you do that don't really make sense or whatever, one experience I had that really stuck out to me was I was young. I was like 16 or 17, I don't really remember. And there were two cars that I could drive to school. One was this cute little '68 red little car, but it only had seatbelts that went across your waist. And the other one was this ugly, tan... Was it a Buick? I don't even remember what it was. It was huge, and it was ugly, and I hated it. It was like a grandma car, but for some reason one day I just knew I should take that ugly card to school.

0:24:13 KR: And I was driving. It was a clear, beautiful day, but in Ohio there's black ice a lot. And I hit this patch of black ice, and my car just spun out. And it hit a mailbox, which shouldn't seem significant, right? But the whole car wrapped in a C around the mailbox, and I hit it dead on where I was. And the mailbox was like an inch thick, filled with cement, welded into the ground. So it crushed the car, should have crushed me. I wasn't hurt at all. I was able to climb out of the broken window. But that taught me a lot of, one, in the Spirit, you just know things and it doesn't always make sense. And two, sometimes seemingly insignificant things like a mailbox can make a huge difference. And so listening to the Spirit about seemingly insignificant things can really change the course of your life.

0:24:56 TH: Wow.

0:24:57 KR: Have really powerful impacts.

0:25:00 TH: Oh my gosh, Karen, that's...

0:25:00 KR: I've got photos of the car. I should put them in the show notes.

0:25:04 TH: Please do. I wanna see. Please do. Please do. Well Karen, I'm curious to know, how did your parents teach you at a young age though? Do you remember things specific how they taught you how the Spirit speaks to you?

0:25:15 KR: Sometimes it would be like a situation...

0:25:17 TH: Asking for a friend because I've got little kids.

0:25:19 KR: Asking for a friend. No, no personalization behind.

0:25:22 TH: Yeah. No, asking for a friend.

0:25:23 KR: Completely objective, third-party outsider.

0:25:25 TH: How did they teach you that?

0:25:26 KR: I remember when sometimes stuff would happen, and I would say a phrase like, "Oh, I knew I should have done that differently. I knew I should have done this instead." And they'll be like, "Oh, what was that?" So it would just... Whether or not it was, but it just taught me to question thoughts and promptings that I got so that I would start to pay attention to little signals. And so it got me more cognizant of my thoughts so that I could discern what was the Spirit and what was maybe just a good thought, but you do anyway, or what wasn't the Spirit, or that type of thing. So that was one of the easiest things, like, "What? What was that that you knew you should have done?"

0:25:58 TH: Oh, I love that.

0:26:00 KR: And they also just taught me to kind of just to learn how I learn, because the Spirit works with how we learn. So it's like, "Oh, you learn by writing in your journal, and that helps you process your thoughts. So maybe journaling will help the Spirit communicate with you." Or just like different things like that.

0:26:13 TH: That's fantastic. Thank you.

0:26:16 AH: That is why the Spirit yells at me, because he knows I am super hard-headed.


0:26:21 AH: And he's like, "Get your life together, lady. Get it together."

0:26:26 KR: You feel a little like, "Oh, what was that?"

0:26:27 AH: Yeah, I'm like, "Oh, okay."


0:26:30 TH: That's awesome. Wow. Well, thank you, both of you, for sharing those experiences. That was really cool. That was a great discussion of that chapter. And so, in the next segment, we're gonna learn about another form of the power of godliness that comes into our lives on a weekly basis.

Segment 4

0:26:51 TH: So a few months ago, we had a guest on the show, Cammy Brown, and she kind of told us the story about how she had adopted two children from Haiti, and they were teenagers when she adopted them. And I'll never forget the first time that her son blessed the sacrament. His native language is Haitian Creole, and he learned English. So he'd been in the word for a little while, became a priest. And when he got up to bless the sacrament for the first time, this is what I remember. It was slow. It was precise. Every word was concentrated and eloquent and purposeful. I will never forget that sacrament prayer. I thought in my head, "I don't wanna take the sacrament blessed by anybody else for the rest of my life." Like can he just speak? Can he be on queue every single Sunday?

0:27:38 KR: Everyone else just sit down.


0:27:39 TH: Yeah.

0:27:40 AH: Pay attention.

0:27:41 TH: It was overwhelming for me, and the Spirit was so strong. I mean, the sacrament, because of that, had changed me forever. And I'm just wondering, has there ever been a time in your lives where the sacrament prayer has been significant to you?

0:27:55 KR: Me, as I start to cry before I even talk. [chuckle] I already mentioned that I believe it and feel that to be real, that we can always have the Spirit to be with us. But one particular sacrament prayer I remember... Whew! I am, I'm crying. I don't think there's any pain more painful, I think, than feeling like real heartbreak for whatever reason that is, in any capacity. And I was in a time of my life where I just felt so broken. And I remember sitting there listening to the sacrament prayer. I mean, I don't have experiences like this ever, so it's like I don't... But it's like I could feel... It's like I could feel the savior sitting next to me. I was still sitting upright, but it's kind of like almost...

0:28:46 KR: I don't even know how to describe it, almost like I could feel my soul just lean over and rest my head on his shoulder and feel what that would feel like to feel the comfort and the love from the savior, who I know loves me more than I can love myself and anybody can possibly love me. And just like feeling that comfort and the power as the words to the sacrament prayer are read about his body and his blood being shed for me was something that I will never forget, and has made me feel the sacrament more tangibly, more powerfully than I ever had before. And I'm so grateful for.

0:29:20 TH: Now I'm crying.


0:29:23 TH: When you said the part about resting your head on his shoulder, oh, that was powerful.

0:29:28 KR: Who doesn't wanna do that, right?

0:29:29 TH: Yeah. Just that feeling of like, "I'm so tired." 'Cause I think of my kids doing that to me in sacrament when we have nine o'clock church. "I'm so tired." But to be a human being, like to be an adult and be that emotionally and spiritually tired. Thank you, Karen. Aliah, what about you?

0:29:47 AH: So something that I do during the sacrament while they're passing the sacrament is I always take out my patriarchal blessing and read it during that time. And so I'm trying to connect with the covenants that the Lord has made with all of us as a group as well as the covenants that he's made with me particular. That's a time where I'm like, "Okay, there's meaning and there's purpose in life in what I'm doing." And I think some of the words that are said in the sacrament prayer that are meaningful to me is when it talks about that the bread or the wine or the water is blessed and sanctified to the souls of all those who partake of it. And that, to me, is really powerful because our heavenly father and Christ are so inclusive. He says, "This sacrament is blessed and sanctified to the souls of all those who partake of it." And we know we're not supposed to partake of the sacrament unworthily and all of that kind of stuff, but that inclusion of everybody who's taking this needs this, and everybody who's taking this can receive this.

0:31:00 TH: Aliah, will you take us there? It's in Moroni chapter four. What verse are you referencing?

0:31:04 AH: In three.

0:31:05 TH: Okay, let's mark that, what she just said. Will you read it to us one more time, that specific verse you like?

0:31:11 AH: "O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake it."

0:31:23 TH: And I think of the word souls right there, not people who partake of it. But what is it about that word?

0:31:29 AH: Not bodies that partake of it, not people who partake...

0:31:30 TH: Yeah, what is it about the word souls? Tell me about that, Aliah.

0:31:34 AH: Because that's the essence of who we are. We're here on this earth, and we're having this mortal experience, and I feel that profoundly. Being mortal, and maybe I'm too heady about this, but being mortal is so difficult for me.

0:31:53 TH: Why?

0:31:54 AH: Because my body sometimes hurts, and my brain sometimes hurts, and my feelings are sometimes hurt. I look at the world and the things that people are doing to each other and to themselves, and because of the work that I do, I know intimately the pain and suffering that people just live their lives in. It's like being mortal is so hard and exhausting for me sometimes. And then I hear that he is worried about our soul.

0:32:34 TH: It's beautiful.

0:32:35 AH: That's different, and our soul can come to him and partake of all of his blessings and be sanctified and be blessed. And that, to me, is meaningful.

0:32:47 TH: Wow, Aliah, that insight is powerful. The fact that the sacrament is for the soul of every member, it's something that we all need to remember. And so talking about souls, I'm just curious to know, how has that were connected to your experience, Karen?

0:33:04 KR: I mean, that's exactly how I felt, right? It was my soul that was just so weary. There are probably a lot of people listening, especially this year, who just feel that they really resonate with that, that they are just... From what we read and what we see and what we feel and what we're experiencing, that they are just so tired. And, their soul is tired. That's the most exhausting thing, I think, is when your whole soul... You can just... Just saying that, I kind of feel it, right? And so, I think that's why the sacrament is so beautiful, because that is a place for our soul to replenish. Not just the type of self-care that we can do on our own that we should and hopefully are doing on our own, but that is where God meets us in our self care and helps take care of us even more.

0:33:52 AH: Amen, amen.

0:33:54 TH: Amen. I've never even considered the sacrament as a moment of self-care until right now. Now, that is powerful. Going back to the wording that we have in these verses, Karen, was there anything that stood out? 'Cause I did ask you guys if there was a specific part or what phrase of the sacrament was meaningful to you. And Aliah, you shared yours with us, which was beautiful. Karen, is there anything specific in the wording that stood out to you?

0:34:21 KR: I do love the words, "always have a spirit to be with them", and I also too... Just as this discussion actually, this didn't stick out to me when I was reading it. But in this discussion too just us witnessing unto heavenly father. As a witness unto the that we are willing to do this too. So it's a way for me to show God and our savior that I love them. That's how I like to view Sunday. I like it to feel different, not even necessarily for me all the time. Although, that is great. Again, back to that self care. But I want it to feel different for them as a witness that I love them and I'm grateful and I'm trying.

0:34:58 TH: Awesome, thank you. Excellent. Excellent discussion on these. And here's what's kind of cool, going back to a little more church history. After the Book of Mormon had been translated, on March 26, 1830 it was then available for public sale. So now the Book of Mormon goes for sale. 11 days later, on Tuesday April 6, 1830, the church will be established and the very first sacrament meeting will take place in the home of Peter Whitmore Senior in Fayette Township, New York. And I'm just thinking... And he's probably going to the sacrament with this, like, "Okay, this is what Moroni told us We gotta pray. This is the prayer we have to say. This is the instruction I got." And it's interesting how the two prayers are a little bit different. It's not verbatim. And that the prayer on the bread gives us the specifics.

0:35:42 TH: "The willing to take upon them the name of thy son. Always remember him and keep his commandments." And then we go into the water prayer where the blessings are the same, that we'll always have his spirit to be with us. Which is so powerful, going back to, again, our discussion about the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's kind of fun with my seminary students, I always taught them a way to remember the Sacrament prayer or what we promise in the prayer is the word take. And it's an acronym, and T stands for take his name upon you; A, always remember him; K, keep his commandments; and then E would be endure to the end. Okay, so I want everyone listening to just take a moment and write in your journal just some of your thoughts and feelings that you've been thinking about as we've talked about the sacrament in this new way and the wording of this sacrament. And, in the next segment, we are gonna discuss another covenant that is part of the sacramental prayers.

Segment 5

0:36:41 TH: So I asked you guys to bring a picture of you on your baptismal day, did you guys find one?

0:36:45 KR: I couldn't find it. And I asked my mom, and she couldn't find it. I'm gonna look through my bin when I look for that car thing again, but...

0:36:51 TH: I don't have one. It was the 70s. We couldn't afford film back then, that was for rich people.

0:36:55 AH: It was 80s, but still, I'm like, I think it burned in the garage fire. [laughter]

0:37:01 TH: Your garage caught on fire?

0:37:03 AH: Yes, and all my high school memorabilia got burnt.

0:37:07 TH: Oh no.

0:37:09 AH: I know, I try not to think... Like this is my trauma narrative that I try never to think about it.

0:37:15 KR: I'm sorry we brought it up.

0:37:16 AH: Because I go to this dark place [chuckle] when I think about it.

0:37:21 TH: Oh no.

0:37:22 AH: It's like my whole childhood.

0:37:27 KR: Oh no.

0:37:27 TH: Your brother set it on fire?

0:37:28 AH: Did. [laughter] Punk.

0:37:34 TH: I love that you just said punk. That's a sad story. I'm so sorry. Alright, let's find something happy. What was happy about your baptismal day? Do you remember anything about that day that made it great? I mean we're eight, but I remember I got a pearl necklace from the home teachers. They brought over this beautiful necklace with a pearl on the end. It was like a presentation. "We bestow this pearl necklace."

0:37:54 KR: Wow.

0:37:55 TH: And they gave a scripture about the pearl of great price and everything. And I was like, "I got a fancy necklace out of this."

0:38:01 KR: You went to like a bougie ward.

0:38:03 TH: And then people brought me presents.

0:38:03 TH: Well, I know.

0:38:04 AH: We got no pearl necklace.

0:38:08 TH: Well, that was the highlight of my day.

0:38:10 AH: Yes.

0:38:10 KR: This is... Well, two things I poignantly remember from my baptism. One, I remember people would ask people to give the talk on the Holy Ghost or whatever. And then I remember some primary teachers would give little felt things of like, "And this is like your fluffy blanket in your cloud," and it was like a whole kit on... It was like a thing, a show of, "I have these different things." And I was disappointed that the person I asked didn't do that. Sorry, if you're listening to this.


0:38:33 KR: I was just like, "Oh, I want that." What would I have done with that? I would have used it for a day...

0:38:36 TH: Karen wants her baptismal kit.

0:38:37 KR: And then I wouldn't have used it. But, I also remember too, right after I got pulled out of the water, I remember my first thought was, "I wanna do that again. That felt so good. I wanna do that again."

0:38:51 AH: Like my dad baptized me. We had practiced before because I was a really... Well, I am a very anxious person. I was a very anxious child as well. And so we did a lot of practicing before, 'cause I was really nervous about doing it. And my dad was a football coach, so he's a big guy, really strong. So there was no way I was gonna slip out of his hands or some weird thing was gonna happen. But my dad was so lovely, and he would always humor me and all my anxieties. And so in the moment that I got baptized, I remember him slowly lowering me in the water and pulling me back out. And I just remember seeing him when I opened my eyes and just feeling so loved, ridiculously loved.

0:39:40 KR: That's beautiful.

0:39:42 TH: It is. I love that you both have good memories like that. Karen, I was laughing with you, because you said you wanted to do it again, but yours was a more spiritual reason. Mine was like, I wanted to do it again 'cause it was like a hot tub.


0:39:53 TH: The water was so hot, I just wanted to kick it in there.

0:39:53 KR: Mine was cold.


0:39:54 TH: I'm like, "Can I swim in here for a couple... " I'm not even kidding. Were both of you baptized in regular fonts or anywhere unique?

0:40:01 AH: Just a regular font.

0:40:02 KR: Regular font. But the water was cold.

0:40:05 TH: Oh, I'm sorry.

0:40:06 KR: And now that I know they can temperature control that, I'm like, "What was up with that?"


0:40:09 TH: Yeah, you were robbed. Robbed I say.

0:40:11 AH: Ours was pretty warm, and it was just like nice bath water.


0:40:17 KR: A tepid temperature.

0:40:19 TH: Well, this is kind of interesting, 'cause I looked up where the prophets had been baptized. And of our 17 Latter-day prophets, so this is interesting, two were baptized in rivers, one in an outdoor baptismal font, three in an indoor font, one in a stream, five in creeks, two in ponds, one in a swimming pool, one in a canal, and then one in a hot tub and then in a canal, which I thought was interesting.


0:40:41 TH: So this is kinda funny. President Kimball was baptized by his father in a hog-scalding tub that the family also used for bathing in. And he didn't stand in the tub with his son. He stood on the outside of the tub, and just said the prayer and dunks Spencer W. Kimball in the water. So a lot of people didn't think it was correct to baptize his son that way. So when he was 12 years old, he got re-baptized in the canal next to his...

0:41:03 AH: Oh my gosh.

0:41:04 KR: Oh, wow.

0:41:04 TH: I know, I thought that was pretty funny. I'm gonna ask on social media where people were baptized. I'm curious to know...

0:41:08 AH: That sounds fun.

0:41:08 TH: Some fun... But my brother was baptized in a river in Idaho. I remember that. He had the cool baptism.

0:41:13 AH: On my mission, the... I served mission on these small islands off the coast of Panama, and we... Well, I didn't do any baptizing. But when the elders would come to do our baptisms, they baptized the members in the ocean.

0:41:28 TH: That's so cool.

0:41:29 AH: It was really beautiful.

0:41:30 KR: That would be really pretty.

0:41:30 TH: That would be beautiful. Okay, well, all of this...

0:41:32 AH: I have some pictures of that.


0:41:35 TH: Put that in the show notes. We're gonna have so many fun pictures in the show notes. I love it. So all of this baptismal talk takes us into Moroni chapter six. So again, here we are, and I'm just imagining Moroni saying, "Okay, and then you need to know information about baptizing people and what church is gonna look like on Sundays." And so he writes about this in Moroni chapter six. So let's just read verse one. And Karen, will you read verse one for us?

0:41:58 KR: "And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meat that they were worthy of it."

0:42:08 TH: Okay, highlight fruit, where it says, "fruit meet that they were worthy of it". Fruit is the word for actions in Scripture; when you see that, actions. So here's my question to you, what sort of fruit? Like if it says there, what sort of actions are necessary? What sort of actions make us worthy of baptism? And that's a big question because when you're eight, it's nothing. You just gotta be eight.


0:42:31 AH: Oh, not for me. I had like a whole...

0:42:34 TH: You weren't sinner though.

0:42:34 AH: I had a whole host of anxieties of which I had to talk to the bishop about for like an hour and a half, 'cause I was like, "Sometimes I take my sister's candy."


0:42:50 TH: Hopefully, your bishop said that you're absolved of all it, because you were under eight.

0:42:52 AH: He was like, "That's okay, that's okay." I'm like, "But what about this?" And he's like, "It's okay." I was like, "I do not wanna get in those waters and then I drown because I didn't confess everything."


0:43:04 KR: I love that. I remember asking my dad, trying to negotiate with him, being like, "But okay, but here's the thing, your sins are wiped away when you get baptized, so I should wait till I'm older 'cause then it wipes out more."

0:43:15 TH: Fair. Totally fair.

0:43:15 KR: "I should probably like... " And I was trying to figure out the optimal time to get baptized so I'd be the most clean and sin-free. 'Cause I was like, "I know I'm gonna mess up after this." And he's like, "No, no, no, no, no, there are other things that come with this. You wanna get... " Anyway.

0:43:28 TH: Oh, my gosh. I was the naughtiest kid ever. And on my baptismal day, I was just like, "Let's do this."


0:43:36 TH: Alright. I didn't think about anything. Oh, my gosh. You guys are so good. You're so good.


0:43:43 TH: So going into this then, it's interesting 'cause Moroni is like they brought a forth fruit meat that they were worthy of it. I mean, how do you become worthy of baptism?

0:43:52 AH: Confess all the bad things that you've ever done.

0:43:55 KR: Don't steal your sister's candy.

0:43:58 TH: But you don't have to if you're a little kid. For those of you listening, if you're under the age of eight, 'cause we do have some young listeners, you're free and clear.

0:44:04 AH: Yes, you don't. I was just very nutty.


0:44:11 TH: You're not nutty.

0:44:12 KR: In seriousness though, I think fruit meat for baptism is, one, first of all, the desire to do it and committing to follow the covenants that you make through baptism.

0:44:20 TH: Yes. I'm gonna read verses two and three. And this is what I did. I highlighted the word fruit in verse one, and then I drew lines with my colored pencil to connect to all of the actions that Moroni says we need to do to be worthy of baptism. So as I read verses two and three, draw lines to what the actions are that stand out to you. So here's what the fruit is. "Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of their sins." That's eight-year-old Aliah. "And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, and having a determination to serve him to the end." And that's what you just said, Karen.

0:45:04 TH: And that is the fruit. Those are the requirements. So after Moroni gets done teaching us about the actions and what we need to do, let's read Moroni chapter six and verse four. And in verse four, it outlines the instructions that the church in Moroni's day did to help new converts and what we're encouraged to do today. And as we read this verse, I want you to tell me what instructions stand out to you. 'Cause there's two words that totally stood out to me, and I can't wait to talk about these words. So in Moroni chapter six, verse four, Karen, will you read that for us?

0:45:33 KR: "And after they had been received into baptism and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ. And their names were taken that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ who was the author and the finisher of their faith."

0:45:55 TH: What stood out to you from that verse that we can do when people join the church?

0:46:00 AH: Well, the thing that stood out to me is not necessarily something that we can do for people who are new to the church, but that we all need in the church, is to be remembered and to be nourished.

0:46:10 TH: That's what I marked. Let's talk about those two words, 'cause I even said... I circled 'remembered', and I wrote to the outside, "Who has been forgotten in my ward?"

0:46:20 AH: I wrote in my Scriptures, "How can I remember and nourish my ward members better?"

0:46:27 TH: What did you come up with? How can you do that?

0:46:28 AH: Well, first, do my ministering. That'd be good.


0:46:36 TH: Especially during COVID. Talk about a time needing nourishment.

0:46:41 AH: Yeah. What I've tried to do is include them in my prayer. So not just that I did my ministering work, but that I include them in my prayers and think about them during the day and try to receive some spiritual guidance or the Holy Ghost or a knowing about who in my ward might need some nourishment, or who might need remembering.

0:47:05 TH: Great example. Has there ever been a time in your membership in this church where you were nourished or where your family was nourished?

0:47:13 AH: So quite literally, we were nourished. So my son was born very premature. He was a micro-preemie.

0:47:22 TH: What does that mean?

0:47:24 AH: So what preemie is, that you are about five pounds, or less than six pounds or something. But my son was born at one pound, six ounces.

0:47:35 TH: Holy cow!

0:47:38 KR: Oh my gosh. My nieces were born around that size, too. It's just like they're tiny.

0:47:41 AH: Tiny. They don't even look like humans. And we were in the NICU with him for 10-and-a-half months.

0:47:48 KR: Oh, my gosh.

0:47:50 AH: And our ward fed my family the entire time. The entire time. And then afterwards still. And still, sometimes they show up with food, because they know I don't cook and that my...


0:48:05 AH: But oftentimes, something bad happens, and for the first week or the first couple of days or whatever people show up and bring food and whatever. But my ward, I have the absolutely most wonderful ward, fed my family for an entire year, if not more.

0:48:21 TH: Tell me what that felt like to be remembered, to be nourished.

0:48:26 AH: At first it was really awkward, because I am an introvert, but it was a weight lifted off of my shoulders. In a time when I felt I was probably more alone than I had ever felt, I felt less alone.

0:48:44 TH: I imagine that would be the case. Thank you, Aliah.

0:48:48 KR: How great that they remembered you and didn't... It wasn't just like, "Oh, I remembered you that one time," but it was, "We will never forget you." That is so beautiful.

0:48:58 TH: What about you, Karen? Is there a time when you were remembered or nourished?

0:49:02 KR: Not like that.


0:49:03 KR: That is so beautiful. I've had some really amazing ministering sisters who pay attention to the little things that I say and check in on me. If I mention that work is gonna be insane, they'll send a note. So that to me, just like, "Oh, you listened and you see me, and what I say matters." Those really buoy me up, stuff like that. It's been really beautiful.

0:49:25 AH: Can I add one other thing real quick? I wanna mention another... A less traumatic, but far, almost more important thing when I felt remembered and nourished is when I was 28, or somewhere about that. Like I was just done with the singles ward. I was like, "I'm done with this. I'm just gonna go to a family ward."

0:49:47 KR: Amen.

0:49:47 AH: I was just like, "I'm out. I'm gonna go to my family ward." And that family ward was so inclusive. Sometimes, I've heard stories of people where like they go to a family ward, and they're the single person, and nobody knows what to talk to them about, or they get left out of things, or they get assigned to the primary or whatever. And they just feel like they're out on their own. And I did not have that experience. My family ward was so wonderful and so inclusive and so generous and ready to take care of me as a single person and include me that I just... That was really important to me.

0:50:29 TH: Great examples. And going on that same vein that you've talked about with church, that was my experience of being remembered and nourished. I do have one that stands out to me. And many people are familiar with my friend Holly Butterfield. I call her HB. She's been on the this podcast a couple of times. I met her... I had just graduated from BYU, and I left college. I left Provo and did not know what I was gonna do with my life. Moved up to Salt Lake and was all by myself, and I went to church by myself, which is the scariest experience for anyone I think. That's one of the worst things ever, to go by yourself, to not have your people, to not have friends. And I walk in, I sit. I'm sitting by myself for about two weeks thinking, "What am I doing with my life?" Because I had it made down at BYU. I was popular, I... No, maybe I wasn't popular. I had friends. And now I'm alone.

0:51:20 TH: And two weeks went by, and there I am again, alone, sitting on the side pew, and in walks Holly. And to her it was nothing, she was late and didn't have anywhere to sit. So she comes in and she's like, "Can I sit by you?" I'm like, "Sure." My heart is racing. I'm like, "This might be the greatest day of my life, so I'm not alone." And then sacrament got over and she said, "Hi, my name's Holly. What's your name?" I said, "It's Tammy." She's like, "Let's go to Sunday school." And that was it. That was the beginning of our friendship, and I just felt remembered and nourished in that moment. Someone remembered me, and it was something so simple as just sitting by someone who is alone. How easy it is to remember and nourish someone just sitting?

0:51:53 KR: Yes, that just reminded me of on. I'm like, "Why did I remember none of these experiences?" But I was like, "Yeah, nothing, no one's remembered me ever."

0:52:01 TH: I've never been nourished.

0:52:02 KR: No one, I want food. [laughter] All the time. No, but I moved from New York, and then when I moved to Utah I didn't really... I didn't have any friends. I moved in the ward, I was sitting by myself for a couple of weeks, the same thing. And then I remember in Sunday school right before it started, someone tapped me on the shoulder and she was just like, "Hi, I'm Chantrey." And I was like, "Oh, hi." [laughter]

0:52:23 TH: Will you be my friend?

0:52:23 KR: Yeah, and then she and the girl next to her, they invited me to come to the fire side with them that night. And they picked me up. And it was funny, 'cause they were both like, "We don't really wanna go either," but it's like, "Let's hang out." And I was like, "Yes." [laughter] And we're still best friends. Yes, life saving.

0:52:39 TH: It really is. I call it the first day of kindergarten. And how many times I did that. Every time I went to a new ward, "Alright, here goes first day of kindergarten again, I gotta find new friends." did that till I was 35. So all of this discussion, it just reminds me of this quote by President Hinckley. And it's just a classic quote, so it totally bears worth repeating, about how we treat people when they come to our ward. Now, he uses the word converts, but Aliah, I agree with you. It's about the whole ward family, any person.

0:53:04 TH: And so he says, "Coming into the church can be a perilous experience unless there are warm and strong hands to greet the convert or the member", whoever needs to be remembered, "Unless there is an outreach of love and concern, he or she will begin to wonder about the step they have taken. Unless there are friendly hands and welcome hearts to greet him or her and lead them along the way, they may drop by the side." And I think I felt that way. I was like, "If I have to sit by myself one more Sunday... " That was tough. So think of this week, just how you can remember and how you can nourish. And if you're someone who needs to be remembered or be nourished, I challenge you to go find someone who needs to be remembered and be nourished. It's the perfect antidote. The answer is the answer for the answer, if that even made any sense. But that's what I'm thinking.

0:53:53 TH: So now we come to the part of the Book of Mormon that I said at the very beginning could be the most timely and significant sermon in the Book of Mormon for our day. And in the next segment, I'm gonna show you what I mean and see if you guys agree.

Segment 6

0:54:09 TH: With all that has transpired over the course of the year... We're winding up, we're at the very end of 2020. Especially when it comes to the way that we've worshipped this year, my question to you is this, "Is going back to church really that important?"

0:54:24 KR: Yes, the answer is...

0:54:26 TH: The pause is telling. Carry on. Go ahead, Karen.


0:54:30 KR: Yes, going back to church is important. But we've talked about this, we're introverts, so...

0:54:37 AH: But necessary.


0:54:43 KR: It will be an adjustment. So... There're beauties to all seasons, right? There's something very beautiful about home church and the beautiful moments that I'm sure many people have been able to have there. There's probably also some people who are really lonely with home church, so the important thing about going back to church is remembering, well, everybody obviously, but those people in particular, and being united together. And there is a strengthening power to being together. I mean, I build communities for a living, I should be like, "Yes, absolutely! Let's go!"

0:55:10 TH: Yeah, it's your job.


0:55:13 AH: I'm just gonna say, yes.

0:55:13 TH: Aliah, no. You tell me your honest answer. Come on, Aliah.

0:55:18 AH: I don't miss it.

0:55:21 TH: Tell me why.

0:55:22 AH: 'Cause of the people. And not individual people, 'cause the people in my ward are amazing. But sitting at my house and nobody comes over and nobody wants me to come over and nobody wants me to go anywhere or do anything or be social has been the most wonderful thing in my whole life. [laughter]

0:55:43 TH: Yeah.

0:55:44 AH: I love it so much, and I feel bad when other people are like, "Oh, COVID. I'm so lonely." And I'm like, "I hope it lasts forever [laughter] so I never have to socialize again." 'Cause I am a super awkward person, and I don't think people know that about me 'cause I be funny and whatever.

0:56:04 KR: You're making everyone else comfortable. Yeah.

0:56:06 AH: Yes, so that they're paying attention to other things, 'cause I am an extreme introvert, and...

0:56:16 KR: Oh, I... Amen!

0:56:19 TH: No, thank you for being honest, 'cause when I have studied and read Moroni chapter six, verses five through nine many times. And if I had read this last year in 2019, I would have been like, "Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, that's what we do." But reading it in 2020, suddenly I'm like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's what we do? That's important?" So I want us to read some of these verses. We're gonna start with verse five and six, that's where I want us to go. And Aliah, will you please read Moroni chapter six, versus five through six.

0:56:50 AH: "And the church did meet together oft to fast and to pray and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls, and they did meet together oft to partake of the bread and the wine in remembrance of the Lord Jesus."

0:57:04 TH: Let's mark the word 'oft', 'cause it's said twice. It's in five and six. And oft means frequently, not "rarely. But what's striking to me about this was when it said, "To speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls." Now, I wanna know how you interpret those words.

0:57:22 AH: Those particular words I love, and that's why I continue to go to church even though I feel anxious and anxious when I'm there, is because I do have a deep concern for others and for the welfare of their souls. And I know that I need others to have concern for me and look after the welfare of my soul. That part of church I love, that part of communing with the saints I love.

0:57:55 TH: How have you seen it in action? What does it look like? I read that and I thought...

0:58:00 AH: It's after sacrament meeting when everybody's just chatting with each other, or in the halls when they should be in Sunday school or priesthood or whatever. And people are just so excited to see each other, they're trying to connect and they're trying to remember and they're trying to nourish. That part of church, I'm like, "Yes."

0:58:20 TH: We just need a longer time between classes, a longer bell time.

0:58:24 KR: Yeah. I think coming back from being absent for so long could be actually a great reset. 'Cause honestly, I agree with kind of Aliah a little bit that sometimes church is very draining for me. There are just so many things to keep track of and so many things to do and so many outside activities for church and just like a bunch of stuff that I love. I love the sincere check-ins in between sacrament meeting and classes, I love, again, going and sitting next to someone who is lonely and... I love too the way that it's worded in here, "speak to one another concerning the welfare of your souls." Actually being like, "How is your heart doing and how are you feeling?"

0:59:00 TH: It's that word again. "How's your soul?"

0:59:01 KR: What is going on in your life? Yeah. Yeah, how's your soul. Well, it'll be kind of like, "Oh my gosh", this moment of coming together again. And I hope we can hold on to that feeling of church and community and make that last, 'cause I think that will be beautiful.

0:59:15 TH: Yes, I totally agree. I would love to see those words... And I always joke about putting something in vinyl on a wall, [laughter]

0:59:24 KR: Oh my gosh, yes.

0:59:25 TH: I sincerely think if we could have that in vinyl or somebody painted it in every room, especially a relief society room, to speak one another concerning the welfare of their souls. 'Cause I thought, "Do we really even do that?" And if we did, what a different experience it would be on Sunday. I think it might be something we truly look forward to. This is the gospel podcast, episode 57. I highly recommend everyone go and listen to it, because there's such a good perfect story about this. And I'm just gonna kind of briefly sum it up, but there's a woman who in her 60s divorced her husband after 49 years of marriage. She goes into a ward, much like our experience, she's by herself, she has to find her people, she's lonely, she's sad.

1:00:12 TH: And she goes into this one ward, and it was interesting because one of the lessons that she attended in relief society, it was a lesson on the temple. And this woman was like, "I don't even wanna be here. I just ended a 49-year temple marriage. I don't wanna talk about temples." And she was about to leave, but then relief society started, so she realized, "I'm stuck, I gotta stay." And everyone started sharing all of their classic, I wanna say just temple answers, about how wonderful it was to go to the temple and how healing. And a woman raised her hand and shared that she didn't have a recommend and what that was like for her. And this woman who's telling the story was like, "Wait, what? We don't share those stories. You don't talk about how you don't have a temple recommend." [chuckle] And then the teacher said she didn't have a temple recommend either. And this woman who's telling the story, it's just such a great story, 'cause she realized if we were really healing wards, if we really did go in and speak concerning the welfare of our souls, what a different conversation we'd be having in relief society. And Aliah, as a therapist, I can't help but ask, but what does that do for our souls when we share those kinds of stories?

1:01:17 AH: It's life changing. Auntie Brene, Brene Brown said, is like, shame feeds off of secrecy.

1:01:26 TH: Oh, I hate secrets.

1:01:28 AH: Yeah.

1:01:28 KR: Me too.

1:01:29 AH: Yeah.

1:01:29 KR: I'm sorry.

1:01:30 AH: Yep, shame feeds off, thrives with secrecy. And so when we are not real, when we are not genuine, when we aren't speaking the truth, we are feeding secrecy, which is feeding shame.

1:01:44 KR: It's hard though. I mean, it's one thing I think to say... So I would love the perspective, Aliah, again, as a therapist. It's hard to go into a setting where you don't necessarily always feel safe enough to share those stories. So how do you overcome that so that you can create a safe space for other people and set the example? That's a vulnerable, hard space.

1:02:04 AH: I do do marriage therapy, and mostly we focus on that individual couple. But as they continue to progress and they're doing better, one of the things that I bring up to them is that part of the challenge of modern marriage is that we all do it in a silo. And so, in more traditional cultures or more indigenous cultures, you have an entire tribe or entire village who's all up in your business all the time. So when things are going bad, your auntie, your sister, your grandma, the shaman, whomever is all like, "Let me tell you, [chuckle] let me tell you sweetheart how to deal with your husband. Let me tell you how to deal with your wife or whatever." And we live such isolated lives that our marriages are made really difficult because we never talk about them. And even if we do talk about them, nobody will comment on them because, "Oh, that's their business, and I don't wanna intrude, and I don't wanna get involved." But that is a part of why we are all struggling and suffering, because nobody wants to get involved, nobody wants to say anything. So we're all alone in a silo keeping all of these secrets about what our real internal world and our soul is doing.

1:03:30 TH: And that probably translates to faith too. People don't wanna comment on another person's religious experience. I can see that translating in a lot of different arenas in life too.

1:03:40 AH: Well, in our entire lives. Raising children, you're like, "Oh, I'm the only one who's struggling to potty train my four-year-old. I'm the only one who's struggling with this about my team. I'm the only one." And really, you're not the only one. There's like everybody. Everybody is struggling, but we all keep it to ourselves in the guise of being polite or whatever. But if we shared our struggle, that creates the safe place for other people to share theirs as well. So somebody has to be brave, or somebody has to take that first step of saying, "I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say... " Just like Tammy said like, "Oh, I don't have the temple recommend." And then the teacher's like, "Me either." And then you have a completely different conversation, because then other people are like, "Oh woah. They're doing that? We're doing the honesty thing?" [laughter]

1:04:35 KR: Okay I've got a story!

1:04:39 AH: Okay.

1:04:41 KR: Everyone is like, "Me, me."

1:04:43 AH: Yes, and I've seen it in relief society. I've seen it in Sunday school, where one person is vulnerable and speaks their truth, and then the whole class erupts in honesty. And it is so edifying.

1:05:00 KR: I'm committing now to doing that and being that person.

1:05:03 TH: I'm gonna hold you to that. I'm gonna follow up on that.

1:05:05 KR: I know this whole podcast will follow up on me, and I'll be like, "Ugh."

1:05:08 TH: Totally. "How you doing with that?" Well, Karen, when you asked that question, "How do we create that safe space?" What struck me was what we just talked about before we talked about this verse, the first thing we're asked to do is to remember and nourish. If you feel safe, if you feel like you're with a group of people who have remembered you and nourished you... I think about the people I talk to when I have problems, they're my friends who have remembered and nourished me for years. They're my safe space. And can you imagine if a ward family was that safe where we had remembered and nourished each other to the point of complete vulnerability? That's what we're being asked to do in these verses. That is what Moroni is setting up right here. He's teaching Joseph Smith, and then he's teaching us in 2020 and the beginning of 2021, "Let's see what we can do with this new year with our wards. Let's see if we can remember and nourish each other to the point that we can truly speak concerning the welfare of each other's souls, and what that's going to look like... "

1:06:05 TH: Because the goal is to become a Zion people. The goal is to become ready for Jesus Christ's second coming, and this is how we do it. And in Moroni chapter six, verse nine, I love how Moroni describes the instructions of what sacrament meeting and what Sundays should look like for us. And I think if we can implement this truly into 2021 and from here on out, I think it's gonna be a place where people are gonna wanna come to church. Karen, will you please read Moroni chapter six, verse nine.

1:06:36 KR: "And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the spirit and by the power of the Holy Ghost. For as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach or to exhort, or to pray or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done."

1:06:49 TH: And let's define some of those words. The word exhort is to encourage or to cheer. Can you imagine if you came to church knowing people were gonna cheer for you? They were so... If you had to speak on Sunday, people were cheering for you from down below, 'cause it's so scary to speak at church.

1:07:04 KR: Holding up signs. [chuckle]

1:07:04 TH: Yeah, "You go!" Can you imagine? And then I love the word supplicate, it's to petition in prayer with earnestness. So we're gonna petition in prayer for everybody here during the sacrament meeting or during sacrament, and just the idea of how it would change. What are some of your thoughts? Tell me.

1:07:20 AH: What I wrote in my scriptures, and it was kind of my takeaway from this whole thing, is... It says, "First gain the Holy Ghost and then let it lead."

1:07:30 KR: Yeah, I agree. And as we are together, we can use those tiny moments to be influenced by the Spirit to know who... If we can exhort someone or do something with the person that we're interacting with.

1:07:43 TH: Well, thank you, women. That's it, that's the end of our discussion. Moroni chapters one through six. That was so powerful. Oh my gosh, the things I learned today. I can't even nail it down to one takeaway. This is gonna be hard. So tell me what your takeaway was. Was there anything you learned new or anything that stood out to you today as we discussed these chapters?

1:08:03 KR: I have two. One... The first one was back into the first chapter of Moroni where he was wandering wheresoever he can for the safety of his own life. And I think so often it would have been easy to assume that the safety of his own life was just being like, "You know what? Fine, I'll deny him, and I'll just live, I'll survive, I'll make it and I'll repent later or whatever." But he knew the real safety of his life was with our heavenly father, and that looks different than the world might tell us. And then the other one was as we were talking about having conversations about the real welfare of our souls. I've realized that I haven't been very good at doing that. In an attempt to cope with all that's going on right now, I've been very much just like, "I'm fine, this is fine." And that is shutting my soul down, and that's not giving other people the opportunity to connect with me and for me to connect with them. And that is really why we come together as saints, and so it was a wake-up call for me to remember that you bond through that and you build through that and you become more Christ-like by doing that.

1:09:03 TH: It's great, Karen. Thank you, that was great takeaways.

1:09:06 AH: For me, it was that remembering and nourishing by the good Word of God. And it was kind of a spur for me as I was thinking like, "Oh, I don't... " It's not time for us to go back to church in my ward, my situation, yet. But going to church isn't necessarily for me, but it's also to remember and nourish others. And I can get on board with that. And then, again, just that last part of, how do we gain the Holy Ghost? And then how do we let it lead in our lives? And I can do that better as well. How do I really use the Holy Ghost to guide my actions and my thoughts and every aspect of my life?

1:09:53 TH: Wonderful, Aliah. Those were great takeaways. Thank you for sharing those. My takeaway was what you started with, Aliah, this book of Moroni is a trauma narrative, to put it in that perspective and then read his words. The ability to write that well just under such extreme duress, it changes the way I read Moroni chapters one through 10. And then, Karen, when you talked about your experience with the sacrament and then our discussion on the word souls has changed the way that I'm going to hear the sacrament prayer, just that vision of me putting my head on his shoulder 'cause I'm just so tired. And I loved how we talked about that, 'cause there's times when I'm physically tired at the end of the day and I just wanna go to sleep. But when your soul is tired, that's a different tired. And so I really appreciated that discussion today. So thank you. Thanks, ladies. Wow, I love you both.

1:10:40 AH: Thanks, Tam.

1:10:41 KR: Thank you, love you so much.

1:10:41 TH: This was so great.

1:10:43 AH: It was so nice meeting you, Karen.

1:10:45 KR: You too.

1:10:45 TH: I know you've known her husband for a while...

1:10:47 AH: I think we have lots of people that are connected, but I'm like, "Oh, I like her."

1:10:53 KR: I like you.

1:10:54 AH: We need to be friends.

1:10:55 KR: Yes, please.

1:10:56 TH: We'll do this again for sure, so start saying the Doctrine and Covenants, ladies, 'cause you'll be back.

1:11:00 KR: I love the Doctrine and Covenants.

1:11:02 TH: It's gonna be fun.

1:11:05 AH: Do you really?

1:11:05 TH: Well, for those of you who were listening to us today, I wanna know what your big takeaway was from this episode and what struck your heart. And if you haven't already joined our discussion group, please go to Facebook or follow us on Instagram. I wanna know what you're learning, and it's such a great place to ask questions as you study throughout the week. It's really fun to have people just ask random questions and to have a discussion about gospel topics, 'cause that's what this is about. This is how we're gonna remember and nourish each other, by talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ. And every week at the end of the week, it's usually on a Sunday, we do a post calling for what your big takeaway was. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson, and let me know what you've learned. I do read every single one of them, it's my favorite part of Sunday. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes of this episode on And go there anyway, because that's where we have the links to all the references that we used today, as well as a complete transcript of this discussion. So go check that out.

1:11:57 KR: The Sunday on Monday study group is a Desert Bookshelf PLUS+ Original, brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today, our awesome study group participants were Aliah Hall and Karen Zelnick Rivera. You can find more information about these ladies at Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert. It's recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here, we will see you next week. And please remember this, you are God's favorite soul.

1:12:32 TH: Well, I get it about getting married older 'cause that's why I kept my last name, Tammy Uzelac Hall. But it was funny because when I was teaching seminary, the kids were like, "Are you gonna... What are you gonna do with your last name?" And I said, "Maybe I'll just keep the U. And then I realized my name would be Tammy U. Hall. [laughter] Like, "No, not doing that. So I'll just have to go with full Uzelac."

1:12:50 AH: Oh my gosh. [laughter]

1:12:53 TH: Yeah.